We thought it would be good to show the audience we have had over the last few months, and to say thanks to all those who have helped to make this a thriving community in the short time we have been on the go.
A Happy New year to all from everyone at TSFM.
______________________________________________________________
The WordPress.com stats helper monkeys prepared a 2012 annual report for this blog.
Here’s an excerpt:
About 55,000 tourists visit Liechtenstein every year. This blog was viewed about 3,500,000 times in 2012. If it were Liechtenstein, it would take about 64 years for that many people to see it. Your blog had more visits than a small country in Europe!
rab says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 18:29
Well said rab.
“I have learned not to expect a response from Hampden despite being a customer of the game”
Where is the accountability? Surely there is an obligation on somebody to respond?
Nice parting sentiment too “we won’t go away”
This is league gerrymandering and surely to God can’t be allowed to happen under our noses
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 18:44
2 0 Rate This
Longmuir in the ET stating that it will be difficult for fans to buy into the new proposals. interestingly he says that with the 12-12-8 structure, Rangers would not be in that top division.
What does that mean, does it mean that they could be put into the second group of 12?
Nothing these clowns do will surprise me.
=========
I posted on this point at 09.46 today, so I won’t repeat the details, but the plan is TRFC in SPL2 next season, and it’s easy for them to do. Just watch!
In the interests of fairness and sporting integrity surely
the club* who win Div 3 should be given the opperchancity
to gain promotion .I suggest a play off with the runners up in Div 2
and the winners of that tie gaining access to the new SPL 2
whoever that may be
I have e mailed the Guiness book of records with my attempt at achieving
the maximum number of thumbs down on an internet forum
vforvernacular says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 14:13
17 0 Rate This
Let me try to get people to look at this another way:
Lets say we have the current setup
Lets assume Dumbarton play Raith Rovers in Div 1
Currently as a division 1 game this is unlikely to be live on SKY.
SKY will chose to show Hearts vs Dundee Utd or Motherwell vs Celtic or whatever they deem has a good TV audience.
If we have a top table of 20 teams then this Dumbarton vs Raith Rovers fixture would still be played.
Its still unlikely to be chosen for coverage.
SKY will still chose to show Hearts vs Dundee Utd or Motherwell vs Celtic or whatever.
So whats changed?
————–
Great to see this subject being discussed. Occurs to me fans are much better suited to the task of reconstruction than the myopic and unimaginative officials in charge.
If it’s home fixtures and total number of games those at top are worried about then simply increase the size league as most are saying. And if a 20-team league, what better than follow the same relegation/promotion/playoff system as England. Works a treat there and is a great spectacle for the neutrals too.
Even by freezing the current league situation into 18, you’d get Dunfermline, Morton, Thistle, Raith, Falkirk, Livingston in the top tier. Applying the English system to even an 18-side league would bring a healthly refreshment of teams. Three would go back down again and you’ve still got the likes of Hamilton, Airdrie and possibly the Ayr United’s and QoS, among others, battling it out for a place upstairs. I can only see a fairer distribution of resources and a more exciting league in going to an 18 or 20-team setup.
The current and proposed systems will continue monotony and may well diminish the long-term value of the top league. There’s nothing more uninspiring than some of the empty stadiums that Sky have been showing this year. Nobody wants 4 yearly fixtures against the same team. Of course, going for an 18 or 20 top tier may well speed up the return of one of the Glasgow teams. But it would be a shame if we were to put vital reform on hold while years of court cases, litigation and possibly a new administration event play out.
forweonlyknow says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 16:49
The “meaningless game” term should be shot down at every opportunity. The English Premier league, in a matrix stylee make sure “there are no meaningless games”, every game counts, cause they market it extremely well.
I agree 100% that every game counts. I also believe that the ‘meaningless’ game (it’s a ridiculous term) allows clubs and their younger players to develop and improve.
I’d love to see an 18 team top tier!
===================================
I’d actually just go further. 20 times gives a few extra fixtures = more gate cash.
There is one other very good reason to have 18 or 20 teams: by playing each team twice rather than 3 or 4 times as at present the gap between the strongest and weakest is not as exagerated as in our current system. Having to play Celtic (and previously Rangers) 4 times a season really punishes the smaller clubs. In turn this made the gap between 2nd and 3rd much bigger than it would have been in a league where all teams play each other twice.
Imagine a reduced EPL where the “diddy” teams all had to play Man Utd and Man City 4 times a year. Just how far behind them would an Everton or Tottenham be in that situation? Twice as far as in th current set up.
I noticed a few peeps making the case for the reduced TV revenue/meaningless games arguments – I don’t have time to reply at the moment but when I get a chance I’ll try to.
I write this in the full knowledge that the topic has been done to death but anyway……
I have friends and colleagues that are Rangers fans. The commentators on the telly and the radio and the papers all refer to them as Rangers. I am happy to refer to them as Rangers, too, in any and all future discussion.
Rangers are alive and well and playing in the Third Division. With their considerable resources, it won’t be long before they reach the top flight and are winning trophies.
I’m happy for everyone to refer to them as Rangers. It’s just not the same Rangers that John Grieg used to play for – that can never be. That’s all. That is not an opinion, it is a fact. No matter how convincing the tribute act and how fervently the audience wants to believe, it can never actually be Elvis.
Aside from writing this, I don’t really feel the need on a daily basis to engage in efforts to convert Rangers fans that are in denial of the fact. They can justify their own beliefs. I go to bed at night and I sleep easy.
When Rangers first turn up at Somerset Park, I will welcome them in the same way as any other visiting team. What will be before me is a club that was created and admitted to the Scottish Football League in 2012. I simply do not know how I can think any different. It is just not possible, without being in complete denial of the facts.
I don’t say this to wind up Rangers fans. They have had a very traumatic time and I would not like my beloved club to meet with the same fate. They also don’t need my advice. However, if I were to take the liberty of offering it, I would urge them to take the opportunity to carry forward the best and most positive attributes of their old club into the future with their new club and to leave behind those repugnant attributes that the rest of Scottish football and society’s fair-minded folk found impossible to accept.
If recent history is any indicator, you should be looking to make some more friends. Now is a chance to start.
8 thumbs up ?
have we tuped over to followfollow?
thereek says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 18:04
Completely agree. Having started watching football in the early sixties, and watching the crowds diminish at nearly all grounds throughout that decade, I can confirm that the crowds in the second half of the season were less than in the first half at most clubs, probably all, that had mid-table mediocrity foisted upon them. Watching your team play-out boring goal-less draws against sides hammered by 5 or 6 goals (or more) the week before was particularly off-putting. Add to that the fact that if you wanted to see a football match, you had to go to one, unlike today, then the actual drop off could well be higher should the SPL increase to 16, or 18, teams. Once supporters realise, unless their team has a good season (and how many will be confident of that?) that the quality of game they are watching will drop, then season ticket sales will inevitably fall and the quality of players signed in the summer will also fall. Cue downward spiral. This was why the Premier League, with only 10 teams, was introduced, and I would reckon, without access to any figures, that it did achieve that aim, at least.
I doubt, too, that any comparison with the EPL is worthwhile as they have 3 teams relegated each season, so there’s a lot more chance of being in a relegation battle, and more European places up for grabs too. Plus, of course, the standard of players in the middle of the league is so much higher and so likely to be worth watching regardless of league position, with many of the visitng teams being amongst the biggest crowdpullers in Europe. Stiil, I suspect even they have a drop in walk-up sales, even when Man Utd etc arrive, just look at the gaps in the terracing at the home ends at some of the less fashionable clubs from now till the end of the season!
Important Disclaimer: I’m not advocating the 12/12/18 plan at all. I just doubt that any alteration to the structure of the leagues will produce any significant improvement in the game, though I do agree that some changes have to be made to the way money is distributed and this two seperate ‘leagues’ done away with. A very radical suggestion might be that they just resort to calling it ‘The Scottish Football League, Divisions 1, 2, 3, and 4’.
They could, of course, just concentrate on convincing the paying public that, when we come to watch our teams playing, we are watching them in a league where no team has a greater influence on those that run the game than any other, that sporting integrity and fairplay are paramount, and that all decisions will be made without fear or favour!
Time to email our clubs again.
If they play any part in accepting this twisted reconstruct that is the end of my family darkening our beloved clubs door ever again.
So 7 days into 2013 and the supporters across Scotland are still being treated like gullible, irrelevant idiots by the governing bodies and MSM.
Reconstruction is being forced through with more questions than answers being the standard practice.
Longmuir is being carried shoulder high by Sevco appeasers and the Establishment to the top of the pile. Supporters will be paying yet another “Brother” a hefty wage to spend his days ignoring them and dining on Succulent Lamb with a side of scrumptious Yorkshire Pudding.
The agenda for the year has been set by the Laptop Loyal. It will be a Tsunami of disinformation mixed with multiple stories of Sevcos FANFARE through the recorrupted Leagues.
The Laptop Loyal can be ignored to a large extent by those who choose not to buy newspapers and listen to certain propaganda driven radio stations (so long as they are not slandering the names of good men who have sadly passed away). But the rest of the issues arising so far this year will be directly hindering to the paying supporters.
We are still being used and manipulated without a second thought by those in charge. As far as they are concerned they have weathered the storm and by the beginning of next season they will be back in complete control. Sevco men will have well “Established” themselves throughout Scottish Football.
The worst part is, they are more than likely right.
timtim on Monday, January 7, 2013 at 19:10
10 26 Rate This
In the interests of fairness and sporting integrity surely
the club* who win Div 3 should be given the opperchancity
to gain promotion .I suggest a play off with the runners up in Div 2
and the winners of that tie gaining access to the new SPL 2
whoever that may be
I have e mailed the Guiness book of ( THE RANGERS WORLD) records with my attempt at achieving
the maximum number of thumbs down on an internet forum
============================================
Fixed that for you timtim 😉
Maybe the plan is to have the usual promotions and relegations at the end of this season between the SPL, div1 and div2, then promote the runners up in div2 and the winners of div3 into div1 leaving 12 teams in that league that becomes SPL2. Hey presto Trfc in SPL2 and sold to the masses as fair promotion of a league winner. Could this be in discussion between the SFA and UEFA in an attempt to have it officially sanctioned before the bampots get a say.
Liked this simple analogy:
The current Rangers football club are the footballing equivalent of the new goldfish you slip into your kid’s tank because the old dead one has been flushed down the toilet. And for the same reason, to prevent tears and tantrums.
“Daddy, Daddy, he’s swimming the right way up now!!!”
Sevco fans, as gullible as a five-year-old.
Talking of sporting integrity and fairness ,would this not be a suitable time to
put out the welcome mat for those clubs who have aspirations to play in the pro set up
that can show 3 years audited accounts but were denied their right to apply as this place
was given to a new club with, no accounting background.
Do Spartans and others have to wait for the next club to be liquidated
and what if that club is a holding company of a holding company that bought a liquidated
holding company that owns a company and bought assets+ history for £1
but plays in blue at Ibrox ?
To be fair to Longmuir, I think he’s made the simple mistake of confusing the phrase “making friends with” with the phrase “throwing coins at”. We’ve all done it.
Just for the record, in no way, shape or form am i suggesting that the scenario i just posted is fair promotion of a league winner. At the end of this season Trfc will have finished 33rd in Scottish football and must start the next campaign in their rightful place, this nonsense about winning the league and not being promoted should be challanged at every turn, the truth is they are promoted into the third bottom tier instead of staying four tiers away. And instead of having 32 teams above them there will only be 24 teams above them. The alternative viewpoint smells like a musty old Gym Trainer ( spot my brilliantly sneaky dig and win some lamb ), i wonder why the Record had this non promotion viewpoint today.
allyjambo says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 20:24
1 0 Rate This
I doubt, too, that any comparison with the EPL is worthwhile as they have 3 teams relegated each season, so there’s a lot more chance of being in a relegation battle, and more European places up for grabs too …
———-
Ally,
I reckon the EPL innovation of the playoffs is worth taking on board north of the border. They knew some extra spice was needed. Three up / three down and the whole drama of the final games is sometimes the most fascinating part of the EPL / Championship season. I’m not pessimistic regarding a return to the bigger league, if it includes this kind of drama. I can only see positives for the viewing public. After all, the Championship is apparently among the top 5 in Europe for clout, and it maintains competitiveness and excitment in spite of its hefty 24-team make up.
Otherwise, if we Scots must go continental, then maybe we should be looking at Holland and their successful system rather than an already failed system of 3 x 8.
Rab
I think its called the Buckfast Fastbuck book of rangers* world records
Most sheep per sq km
largest number of billionaires in 1 room
biggest tax dodge by a football club
lowest number of red cards for
highest number of red cards against
most penalties given
highest wage bill for a 4th tier club
scene of most succesful pickpocket operation on 3 seperate occasions
only club to be awarded a european trophy in a dressing room
most free tickets given away for matches
club with highest amount of identified enemies
most titles bought
most referees bought
largest serving of succulent lamb
most names for a football club in 1 season
………………….
……………………………..
………………………………
most names for a football club in 1 season
timtim – that one made me do the spitting out drink thing!
Danish Pastry says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 19:45
‘..Occurs to me fans are much better suited to the task of reconstruction than the myopic and unimaginative officials in charge…’
—-
A wee bit of the huffies On ‘Paper Talk’ in tonight’s Sportsound Special.
The 3 wise men- English, Forsyth and Grant -were looking to reclaim some importance for themselves, as opinion shapers, by agreeing with each other that Longmuir NEEDS the press to get behind his proposals to help ‘sell’ them to supporters.
They even half-seriously supposed that the fans might usefully be listened to!
I’m really interested in why Longmuir did not hold the conventional press conference at Hampden to announce his message.
He clearly poked the press in the eye by doing his sales pitch on radio ( listening figures, anybody?) with Turnbull as a kind of half-guarantor of his good faith.
bailemeanach on Monday, January 7, 2013 at 21:32
3 0 Rate This
most names for a football club in 1 season
timtim – that one made me do the spitting out drink thing!
=====================================
Conclusive proof that you are not bomber brown in disguise
timtim says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 19:56
8 thumbs up ?
have we tuped over to followfollow?
————————————————-
Or is it possible some folk here actually have a sense of humour??
Rab
I think its called the Buckfast Fastbuck book of rangers* world records
Most sheep per sq km
largest number of billionaires in 1 room
biggest tax dodge by a football club
lowest number of red cards for
highest number of red cards against
most penalties given
highest wage bill for a 4th tier club
scene of most succesful pickpocket operation on 3 seperate occasions
only club to be awarded a european trophy in a dressing room
most free tickets given away for matches
club with highest amount of identified enemies
most titles bought
most referees bought
largest serving of succulent lamb
most names for a football club in 1 season
————————————————————————–
i read somewhere that proxyrangers cannot beat gretna’s points total for sfl 3,
i read that gretna were paying average players high wages.
i read that gretna ran up a lot of debt in order to achieve their success.
whatever happened to gretna ??
will they be “coming back”
How long will it be before the penny drops?
When will decent TRFC fans finally accept that their new club is in the hands of Spivs?
e.g.
Stockbridge is paying himself £360k pa for doing a £60k pa job
What will it take?
When will they figure out that the share issue was a 100% scam?
When will they realise the entire purpose was repayment of Spivs favours?
Repaying the Green Spivs who who loaned money?
Repaying Whyte and Close Leasing Spivs who swopped floating charges for shares ?
Repaying Ticketus Spivs who swopped some debt for shares and left some in the Liquidation Pot?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Wake up before TRFC become as big a laughing stock as the previous lot that played at Ibrox
The answer is under your noses
Ask you representative on the Creditors Committee to find out how much debt Ticketus left in the pot
If they didnt leave 100% then its because they swopped the rest for RIFC shares and its in the name of a 3rd party
Don`t believe them if they tell you they intend to get their money back from Whyte
They had a golden opportunity for months to join in the Green plan
Do you think they said No?….when they were acting on behalf of a group who were into the scam from the beginning?
No chance
goosygoosy @ 22:23
Please don’t try to waken them up
They have had enough warnings, and have ignored every single one of them
Let them stew in their own juice now, as it is no more than they deserve
LEARN YOUR LESSONS; SFL chief Longmuir in club cash warning
SCOTTISH clubs are fast running out of credit and David Longmuir believes more will face ruin if they don’t heed the warning signs in the wake of Dundee’s descent into the financial abyss.
“Clubs have to realise they can’t treat their Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tax obligations as something akin to a credit card
—————————————————————————–
surely he meant the company and not the club
Gretna, whose employees were all made redundant by administrators, are expected to be wound up next week after SFL chief executive David Longmuir found “fundamental flaws” in the business plan put forward by the sole interested party.
Did he review the TRFC business plan ?
————————————————————-
When other teams from the SPL played in division 3 , did SPL refs referee their games ?
timtim says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 21:04
16 1 Rate This
Talking of sporting integrity and fairness ,would this not be a suitable time to
put out the welcome mat for those clubs who have aspirations to play in the pro set up
that can show 3 years audited accounts but were denied their right to apply as this place
was given to a new club with, no accounting background.
Do Spartans and others have to wait for the next club to be liquidated
and what if that club is a holding company of a holding company that bought a liquidated
holding company that owns a company and bought assets+ history for £1
but plays in blue at Ibrox ?
………….
I always wonder about these Clubs. They probably dream of joining the SFL, yet when a space opened up, not one single person from any one of these Clubs said a word. They simply accepted that the free place in the SFL they have dreamed of taking, belonged to New Club with no accounts. You have got to wonder why they were so accepting of being treated with such disregard and disrespect. Were they too scared to speak out? If so of who and why. Or were they all given assurances behind the scenes by people who are deluded enough, to believe that they have the authority to make such guarantees.
Graham Spiers’ reply on Twitter regarding Hugh Adams’ appalling obituary;
============
Andrew Woods@reilly1926
@GrahamSpiers What did you think of your Newspaper’s obituary to Hugh Adams yesterday ?
7mGraham Spiers@GrahamSpiers
@reilly1926 I actually thought the Hugh Adams piece was ok. What was the bit that offended you?
Expand
2mAndrew Woods@reilly1926
@GrahamSpiers It was more of an article excusing SDM for his “Financial Vadalism” (Your words I believe) than a piece about a deceased man.
troyblain says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 22:54
3 0 Rate This
Gretna, whose employees were all made redundant by administrators, are expected to be wound up next week after SFL chief executive David Longmuir found “fundamental flaws” in the business plan put forward by the sole interested party.
Did he review the TRFC business plan
……………………….
Longmuir would not even dare suggest such a thing. That’s why he is being lined up for the top job.
when the refs went on strike, the SFA were prepared to use referees from Malta. I guess Maltese refs are used to dealing with games of this magnitude.
I’m surprised, when everyone has been looking for a message to send to the governing bodies, that all fans of the four clubs in the league cup semi-finals should have refused to buy tickets and left the national stadium empty on both days.
This should also be done on the day of the final itself.
The same tactic should be used in the Scottish cup semi’s and final.
I personally will not give the SFA one more penny until this situation is resolved.
What could be a bigger slap in the face to Ogilvie and co than an empty stadium on semi finals and final day.
These are the best chances we will have to make a statement without financially damaging our own clubs.
Serious talk of league reconstruction by SFA et al is completely putting cart before horse.
Peace,progress etc MUST be preceded by Justice..without it there will never be a positive way forward for Scottish football.
CO et al should be spending every living hour focused on 2 things only right now
1 Ensuring They and LNS come up with and justify a very robust set of rulings and punishments eg remove trophies /titles and consequentially advise Newco they need to repay all the illegally earned prize money over the past 10 or 20 years ( by confiscating all future prize money earned until it is all repaid… ) either that or a forced healthy spell in the lower reaches..
2 Laying the groundwork to Ensure that NEWCo and their fans understand this is what they need to accept if they want to play in Blue and white and retain their OLD name and there will no ifs ,buts and maybes about it
The reason that these two items are more important is that , as a number of posters have posted here , to preserve the integrity of the game the other clubs absolutely have to walk away and form a completely new association if they don’t make 1 and 2 above happen . That has to happen or Scottish football is finished !…and the clubs and fans need to make them understand it very clearly..a la. the summer!
I suspect Longmuir et al think a minor slap on oldco wrists is coming ergo they are mentally past that subject and onto bigger matters….WRONGGGGGGG !
Right now justice first is only thing that mattersto get the integrity back …then worry about reconstruction..
At that point they might find there is suddenly not a very big appetite for it..Surprise Surprise !!
Final point if 5 way agreement means there is no way that above actions can be taken ..CO et al need to resign immediately ..and new association formed immediately simultaneously throwing away said agreement
allyjambo says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 20:24
9 1 i
Rate This
thereek says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 18:04
Completely agree.
~~~~~
Next thing you’ll probably try and tell us that Johnny & Willie Hamilton were two of the best players on the scene then !
justshatered says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 23:08
Or just maybe the right time to get a few banners seen, right across from the main Stand at Hampden? I’m up for displaying a banner at the Celtic V St Mirren game.
Tailofthebank says
“justice first!” nice. Another phrase for us bampots or for fans banners!
The SFA have their own banner
No Justice then-No Justice now-Just us forever
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 19:45
Great to see this subject being discussed. Occurs to me fans are much better suited to the task of reconstruction than the myopic and unimaginative officials in charge.
If it’s home fixtures and total number of games those at top are worried about then simply increase the size league as most are saying. And if a 20-team league, what better than follow the same relegation/promotion/playoff system as England. Works a treat there and is a great spectacle for the neutrals too.
Even by freezing the current league situation into 18, you’d get Dunfermline, Morton, Thistle, Raith, Falkirk, Livingston in the top tier. Applying the English system to even an 18-side league would bring a healthly refreshment of teams. Three would go back down again and you’ve still got the likes of Hamilton, Airdrie and possibly the Ayr United’s and QoS, among others, battling it out for a place upstairs. I can only see a fairer distribution of resources and a more exciting league in going to an 18 or 20-team setup.
The current and proposed systems will continue monotony and may well diminish the long-term value of the top league. There’s nothing more uninspiring than some of the empty stadiums that Sky have been showing this year. Nobody wants 4 yearly fixtures against the same team. Of course, going for an 18 or 20 top tier may well speed up the return of one of the Glasgow teams. But it would be a shame if we were to put vital reform on hold while years of court cases, litigation and possibly a new administration event play out.
=========================================================================
As Shuggie Kevins rightly points out. With an 18 or 20 team SPL won’t the TV money be spread a bit thin?
I dont think I’m being out of snyc with the vast majority of non Sevco supporters in stating that it would be easier for us all to move on if the SFA came out and said that ” Sevco are a new company and are not a continuation of the Old Rangers. It is recognised that they, supporters and others will/may call them Rangers acknowledging that there is a close connection/afinity with Oldco as they operate from the same stadium and training facility and wear similar colours and have the same fanbase. They may lay claim to continuing the spirit of the former club but they are regretablly two distinct entities. The moment Old Rangers went in liquidation their membership of the SFA/SPL expired. It has to be recognised therefore that should The Rangers win the SFL 3rd division it will be their first trophy and in no way shape or form can be added to the many acheivements of the last club. The matter of removal of achievements of the Oldco is a seperate argument and Mr Green and his consortium who bought the assets of the Old Rangers (IL) will have no say or input on the matter. Please also note that the name of the Oldco as it appears on trophies will not be allowed to be shown verbatum should the Newco be succesful any any competition because a distinct difference must be shown. Records & trophies wins will show The Rangers. All future branding of Sevco must be approved by the Governing bodies and the use of Olco’s logo’s must stop on strips worn in competition. The SFA/SPL has no objection to Sevco launching memorabilia and replica kits in relation to Oldco but these must not be used in any form of competition run by the SFA/SPL and UEFA, there must be a clear distinction between the old & new companies. Any old branding on display at Ibrox stadium or Murray Park need not be removed however the new logo and branding must be clearly on display in a prominent position.
“To finish it was Rangers then, The Rangers now and moving forward into the future the name Rangers will survive and prosper but this is a new Rangers. We would like all supporters of The Rangers to accept this and lets move forward for the better of Scottish Football.
There we go, that would please me anyway. I’m sure many could add to it. This had me thinking the Rangers are the “Doctor Who” of Scottish Football. Died and regenerated themselves, it’s still the Rangers but not the same Rangers and like the Doctor they still have the assets of the old Doctor but we all know it’s no really the same Doctor but you have got to please and convince your audience that it is the same.
just another point after finishing my rant someone close to me was recently recognised for 25yrs service to their company. The fact of the matter is this person had actually worked for that company for 32yrs but the records did not reflect that. The reason for this was that they left the company 7yrs after joining for a period of 6 weeks for another job with another company. Realising after 2 weeks that they had made a mistake the oldco took them back however this was seen as a break of service. This meant new employee number and all former employment history null & void therefore in the company eyes it was only 25yrs service that came round the other day. So to with Oldco’s membership with the SFA it was null & void the moment they went into liquidation.
briggsbhoy says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 01:08
‘… it would be easier for us all to move on if the SFA came out and said that ” Sevco are a new company and are not a continuation of the Old Rangers.’
—
briggsbhoy, ‘what oft was thought, but ne’er so well expressed’.
You’ve encapsulated the whole of what this blog is about.
Namely:
Pointing up the reprehensible behaviour ( behaviour, which we have just been reminded by Mr Taylor, our rep on UEFA,which will not be tolerated!) of a club which died because of its reckless, paranoid obsession to spend more than it earned by using non-payment of tax as a credit-free loan from HMRC!
Pointing up the complicity of certain people in influential positions in the SFA in allowing that kind of situation to go unremarked and unchecked
Further pointing up the deep unwillingness of the SFA to deal with that dead club ( while it was still technically alive) with the same rigour and force as it had dealt with other less ’emotionally’ and ‘financially’ significant clubs in the very recent past
Pointing up the very evident fact that the SFA grant a new, bastard club, the same status and importance in its deliberations and policy making that was once accorded to the dead club
And pointing up the fact that the MSM -almost to a man ( nor sure about Moira, on the Scotsman) – are essentially gut supporters of the dead club, either because their editors order them to be so, or, at least in some cases, because they are heart and hand sharers of the dead club’s ethos.
On this last point, fair dos. Except that they pretend to be journalists, reporting objectively.
And fair dos again. As employees of newspapers in thrall to their money-grubbing ‘rupert murdoch’ types , we don’t pay them ( unless we buy their rags).
When it comes to BBC radio, a different story. We DO pay them!
And I, for one, am sick fed up with the never-ending propaganda machine for ‘Rangers!’ that BBC radio Scotland has been and CONTINUES to be, in spite of everything.
john clarke on Monday, January 7, 2013 at 21:47
4 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 19:45
‘..Occurs to me fans are much better suited to the task of reconstruction than the myopic and unimaginative officials in charge…’
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A wee bit of the huffies On ‘Paper Talk’ in tonight’s Sportsound Special.
The 3 wise men- English, Forsyth and Grant -were looking to reclaim some importance for themselves, as opinion shapers, by agreeing with each other that Longmuir NEEDS the press to get behind his proposals to help ‘sell’ them to supporters.
They even half-seriously supposed that the fans might usefully be listened to!
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I heard that John. They included Paper Talk on the podcast tonight. Some interesting comments indeed. I like the idea of the show, always have, JT became a tired host though. They could do with a representative from the new media on board. A wee cat among the sheep … er … pigeons 🙂
Dollox, they are planning financial redistribution anyway. That should mean a thinner spread. As someone pointed out in a previous post, they also have to factor in what clubs will lose by supporters walking away from the current league that is low on variety.
The reconstruction nonsense is essentially a cross between rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, a giant smokescreen to hide the catastrophe that has been created, and d a means of accelerating the chosen ones back to their rightful place. Anyone expecting any meaningful statement on the status of the new club or any sanctions or recompense for the actions of Rangers now deid is deluded.
We are in a parralel universe on that.
Iceman I don’t believe for one moment that the SFA would ever make such as statement as I suggest. Had they given greater thought to matters that arose at the time we would not be where we are today. I think they looked upon Mr Green as the savour of Rangers and Scottish football when this was only partly true. Had they taken stock they should have realised that with the strong and loyal support Oldco that regardless of whether there was a continuation of oldco or not there would always be a Rangers playing at Ibrox or anywhere as the fan base would have followed. Failing to recognise this and pandering to Mr Green they have put themselves in a corner, how do they get out that corner? Not easy because they thought silence and avoiding what should have been said was the answer, possibly more Rangers men who indirectly created further grief. So going back to my earlier question How do they get out of that corner? In a company I worked for for a longtime we used to have an expression in Management “if you cannot Change the People – Change the People” so until there is an imminent clearout and someone will balls and a death wish at the SFA states the truth the stagnation continues.
Briggsbhoy.
Thats how easy it could have been in the summer and we could be further down the road in terms of moving on , pulling together with Trfc and reshaping the structures of governance and league set up. Without the poisonous and probably now unfixable tensions that are escalating between the two opposing views.
Oh how easy it would have been for it all to be different now.
Why don’t SEVCO, NEWCO, RFC(IA), RFC (IL) and RFC International LTD set up a league of their own as there is 5 teams that I can remember. They could invite other teams and then we would really see who their friends are.
They can sing bile and throw coins to their hearts content.
Call the league We Are The People Divided.
I don’t think any reconstruction will allow TRFC to jump up the Leagues any quicker than at present.
In any reconstruction project, the very first thing people will look at is how TRFC could benefit from it.
The authorities would do well to remember that the fanbase holds the real power (i.e. the turnstile cash) at the end of the day, and they will NOT manage to sneak things past us.
briggsbhoy says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 01:08
I dont think I’m being out of snyc with the vast majority of non Sevco supporters in stating that it would be easier for us all to move on if the SFA came out and said that ” Sevco are a new company and are not a continuation of the Old Rangers. It is recognised that they, supporters and others will/may call them Rangers acknowledging that there is a close connection/afinity with Oldco as they operate from the same stadium and training facility and wear similar colours and have the same fanbase. They may lay claim to continuing the spirit of the former club but they are regretablly two distinct entities. The moment Old Rangers went in liquidation their membership of the SFA/SPL expired. It has to be recognised therefore that should The Rangers win the SFL 3rd division it will be their first trophy and in no way shape or form can be added to the many acheivements of the last club. The matter of removal of achievements of the Oldco is a seperate argument and Mr Green and his consortium who bought the assets of the Old Rangers (IL) will have no say or input on the matter. Please also note that the name of the Oldco as it appears on trophies will not be allowed to be shown verbatum should the Newco be succesful any any competition because a distinct difference must be shown. Records & trophies wins will show The Rangers. All future branding of Sevco must be approved by the Governing bodies and the use of Olco’s logo’s must stop on strips worn in competition. The SFA/SPL has no objection to Sevco launching memorabilia and replica kits in relation to Oldco but these must not be used in any form of competition run by the SFA/SPL and UEFA, there must be a clear distinction between the old & new companies. Any old branding on display at Ibrox stadium or Murray Park need not be removed however the new logo and branding must be clearly on display in a prominent position.
“To finish it was Rangers then, The Rangers now and moving forward into the future the name Rangers will survive and prosper but this is a new Rangers. We would like all supporters of The Rangers to accept this and lets move forward for the better of Scottish Football.
There we go, that would please me anyway. I’m sure many could add to it. This had me thinking the Rangers are the “Doctor Who” of Scottish Football. Died and regenerated themselves, it’s still the Rangers but not the same Rangers and like the Doctor they still have the assets of the old Doctor but we all know it’s no really the same Doctor but you have got to please and convince your audience that it is the same.
just another point after finishing my rant someone close to me was recently recognised for 25yrs service to their company. The fact of the matter is this person had actually worked for that company for 32yrs but the records did not reflect that. The reason for this was that they left the company 7yrs after joining for a period of 6 weeks for another job with another company. Realising after 2 weeks that they had made a mistake the oldco took them back however this was seen as a break of service. This meant new employee number and all former employment history null & void therefore in the company eyes it was only 25yrs service that came round the other day. So to with Oldco’s membership with the SFA it was null & void the moment they went into liquidation
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briggsbhoy
that is the best post i’ve seen on here for a while
[apaprt from the guy who said the rangers mascot should now be called proxybear]
imho, the sfa/spl/sfl must make a statement – an unequivical statement – about the way they view the sevco franchise.
do they see them as rangers
or
do they see them as proxyrangers?
are Regan and Doncaster still in charge of our game ? they seem awfully quiet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-20937413
Rab
I forgot to add that if it had been announced at the time that Oldco was no more but a Newco under the control of Green would continue the legacy that was Rangers, fine. If they had also said that for the good of Scottish Football and recognising the strength of support that will exist for Newco they intend for the betterment of Scottish football to allow them entry into the third division of the SFL, fine. If they had explained that they had sat down with those clubs who had sought entry to the SFL and were now denied that but these clubs were in someway compensated and these clubs did not contest this, all was agreed by mutual consent, fine. If they had said that this Newco would be handicaped by signing restrictions or point deductions for the benefit of clubs in SFL3, fine. They could have looked to let whoever comes last in the SFL3 drops out and a new appplicant is given entry. At the end of the day love them or loathe them they would never had died completely and you have to be realistic and acknowledge that for the better of Scottish football a Rangers in some form in the leagues does make financial sense on many levels. A;las that opportunity was missed and that isn’t fine.
Angus,I really do not think they care about the fanbase of any other clubs, their main objective is to get the newclub up the divisions as fast as possible. Once they are shuggled in then job done for them. They just need that vote for reconstruction then they are off with their plan. I ask you this why are they trying to fast track now, fine if it was for season 15/16 (Two years notice) but why the hurry for next season. This was the plan after the newclub was voted into Div3 and its in full throttle.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/why-numbers-just-dont-add-up-1522222
“Longmuir certainly spoke THE PEOPLE’s language” (You can that again Mr Jackson!)
Keith Jackson, yet another Longmuir desperado in this piece. To be fair a lot of what he says on reconstruction makes sense, even if it the tone is simply his concern for Sevco.
“Are we seriously going to ask Rangers fans to go on another free-spending tour of duty around all the same outposts they have visited this season?”
It is not a punishment Mr Jackson, it is not a “tour of duty” but a FOOTBALLING COMPETITION. Sevco are part of a League system, please show some respect to the other Clubs and the people who put their time, effort, love and emotion into supporting these Clubs.
The knives are out for Longmuir over in RM land, apparently he has sold out to the SPL and reneged on his promise to accomadate Sevco.
The general concensus is that a move to England is the only obvious solution.One poster has mapped out the future for his beloved club and has Sevcoripping through the leagues until they get to the top “where we belong as the biggest club in Britain”.The sad part is they actually beleive that.I wont hold my breath.
As others have eloquently stated above,it isn’t fine, and it can never be fine whilst the present culture of appeasement and favouritism continue within Scottish football.
Sadly I see no-one in Scottish football with the power or influence or will to correct the errors made. I see no clamour from journalists for openness or transparency or truth (normally their overriding concerns) to force the truth. I see no political pressure to hold the SFA to scrutiny in any guise.
I see a game that has destroyed itself utterly by its failure to apply its own rules and by a culture of favouritism and entitlement that it has allowed to transfer to a new entity in the face of its own rule book. The silent acceptance of this – indeed active encouragement in many quarters – by all involved in Scottish public life makes this not just a matter of disgrace in Scottish football but a matter of Shame in Scotland’s wider public society.
The entire episode has made me turn my back on Scottish football and reduced my faith – already low – in Scotland’s abilities to step forward as a credible mature society into the twenty first century. ( Regardless of whether or not we opt for Independence)
Belter form Keef
‘….Smith couldn’t see what Whyte was up to – when all that was missing was a twirly moustache and a big black cape – then is he really qualified to lead all of Scottish football out of the dark?’
Oh yeah! remember this little doozy from The 2012 Sports Writer of the Year……
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/craig-whyte-profile-the-scots-billionaire-1076110
You know, its not as mad an idea as it sounds (other than being the biggest club in Britain bit). UEFA’s big stumbling block has always been cross broder participation. However we have here a company with related companies registered in England and subject to English law. We have ownership of the major heritable assets possibly not the same company as that which owns the football club. And finally, we have the same club ignominously having to start in the lowest tier of Scottish football whilst at the same time railing against that very institution which gave it life.
Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that we could see an English based club owning assets physically located in Scotland. if the legals are all done correctly then couldn’t Green argue that they are an English club and should be treated the same as MK Dons for example. Is starting in the lowest tier of English football any worse than starting in the lowest tier in Scotland. And remember even league 1 in England is a richer playgtound than the SPL. The Championship and ultimately the EPL are the promised land as far as riches are concerned.
Palacio67 says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 09:29
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Angus,I really do not think they care about the fanbase of any other clubs…
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I know that, you know that – but if they were prepared to ignore that fanbase, then TRFC would currently be in the SPL. 😉
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I ask you this why are they trying to fast track now …
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Quite agree. Why are they? They obviously have what they consider to be a furtive plan. The thing is, no matter how furtive they try to be – if the end result is that TRFC enjoy any kind of advantage whatsoever it will be plainly obvious. In which case, back to the “why aren’t TRFC in the SPL this year” thing. The punters will not allow it to happen.
Appeasement almost inevitably leads to all out conflict
I think the SFA/SPL/SFL will learn this lesson in the not too distant future
theoldcourse
There is one small problem with the proposed solution
It is highly unlikely that they would be allowed to play their games at their “spiritual” home
“Are we seriously going to ask Rangers fans to go on another free-spending tour of duty around all the same outposts they have visited this season?”
Are we seriously going to ask Queens Park, Montrose, Peterhead, Elgin City, Berwick, Annan, Clyde, E Stirling and Stirling fans to go on another free spending tour of duty around all the same outposts they have visited this season.
Campsie, in a world where the EPL and other leagues can stage games in Dubai and elsewhere why not? Devolve the company registration jurisdiction from the physical location and you have an interesting legal argument if nothing else.
theoldcourse @ 10:18
Agreed
Where their home games would be played, would be the most contentious item on the agenda
As you say, it would keep the lawyers racking up fees for a while
arabest1 says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 10:02
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Belter form Keef
‘….Smith couldn’t see what Whyte was up to – when all that was missing was a twirly moustache and a big black cape – then is he really qualified to lead all of Scottish football out of the dark?’
Oh yeah! remember this little doozy from The 2012 Sports Writer of the Year……
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/craig-whyte-profile-the-scots-billionaire-1076110
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A thumbs down? Keef have you no work to do? You won’t retain your title if you spend your mornings reading this forum…get out and do some real journalism. Even you must realise the Daily Record is in considerably worse condition than Scottish Football. 😉
Regarding any possible move to the English league by Rangers.
If you can believe that the club that you have followed didn’t actually die because there is still a club playing at Ibrox, called Rangers, with five stars on their strips then it follows that any club playing at Ibrox and called Rangers must in fact be Rangers.
So, being of that mindset, would a struggling English club that was bought out and relocated to Ibrox metamorphis into RFC with much of a struggle?
I know all the arguments about history etc but as Chuck has shown history can be bought and sold. In the eyes of the Rangers fans whoever owns the history is de-facto the Rangers football club that was started in 1872. If, for example, Wigan were to buy Rangers history and relocate to Ibrox could they really become Rangers in the minds of the “people”. Would the lure of the EPL be enough to blinker even the most die-hard bluenose. As this season has shown Rangers fans are prepared to believe whatever it takes to convince themselves and others that they really are still the same club.
Far fetched – yes. Crazy – yes. But as this whole affair has shown, nothing is impossible or unbelievable.
Damn it, theold course beat me to it 😀
:note to self – must improve typing speed
Can someone explain how the Welsh clubs can play in the English leagues, when there is a Welsh league they could play in? Or an English club in the Scottish league? UEFA must surely have accepted these arrangements, so another exception to their policy wouldn’t be much of a stretch.
Personally I think that the departure of TRFC from Scottish football would be the best thing that could happen. Our game would be cleaned up overnight, and given the events of the last 12 months,I honestly don’t see the game in Scotland ever being cleaned up otherwise.
Longmuir is currently being touted as the saviour of Scottish football, since he had a “good war” last summer. The man who promised Sevco a place in SFL1, who was threatened with a vote of confidence by the SFL clubs, who is a signatory to the notorious five way agreement, who will stretch bend or ignore every rule in the book for the benefit of one club, this is the saviour- words fail me!
Unless and until Longmuir, Ogilvie, Doncaster and Regan depart, preferably taking their pet TRFC with them, there is no future for Scottish football. And if the governing bodies in Scotland were thoroughly cleansed, so that every club had the rules applied to them fairly and impartially, then it’s goodbye TRFC anyway. They and their support are simply not prepared to play under such a regime. That is crystal clear. Of course they are in for a big shock when they find that their arrogance and sense of entitlement cuts no ice in England. Then the fun would really start!
Briggsbhoy.
As others have said quite correctly, in my opinion your post is one of the best that I have read on here for some time. Well done.
Can I however make a suggestion.
At times we are getting bogged down in discussions on whether or not Newco are Oldco etc. You know what I am talking about.
Some, like me will never be persuaded that Newco are the same with a right to history, titles etc. They are in effect deid.
Sevconians on the other hand will also believe that they are the same club and no amount of discussion will change thgeir minds.
It is highly unlikely that anyone from the SFA will come out and give a definitive answer.
My suggestion to try to draw a line under this is that we take Counsels opinion.
Quite simply we should club together, employ a QC experienced in company law and put all the facts before him/her. Only then, with this formal legal opinion will we be able to move on.
If Counsels opinion comes back stating that Newco is a continuation of the Oldco, entitled to its history and titles then folk like me would need to accept it.
If not, we would then have a legal opinion which we could use to back up our own arguement.
We could send a copy of the opinion to all and sundry, to the SFA, all member clubs of the SPL, the SFL, UEFA , the lot.
Like Briggsbhoy says, it would be better if the SFA had come out with a clear statement but hell will freeze over first.
The ball is in our court. Lets go for it. It might be costly but I for one am prepared to make a donation to take it forward.
briggsbhoy says:
The matter of removal of achievements of the Oldco is a seperate argument and Mr Green and his consortium who bought the assets of the Old Rangers (IL) will have no say or input on the matter.
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I agree with everything else in your post except the above. I think it is important to remember that the reason Green and Rangers ‘will have no say or input’ is because they have taken the decision not to participate in the LNS Commission.
They are the ones who have denied Rangers and its support the opportunity to put their case forward on the stripping of titles or other sanctions being imposed.
Although, this will also be a test for the new Plc board and in particular the NEDS. It was all very well before when Green and his investors refused to attend the last LNS Hearings. But would the new Plc board be acting in the best interests of Rangers International and its shareholders by not attending the continued hearing later this month?
But with the MSM keeping quiet will the institutional shareholders based in London ever get to hear of the issue which received scant attention in the Rangers AIM Prospectus and, from memory, I’m not sure it was ever mentioned that LNS was being boycotted.
wjohnston where do i donate? 😀
get tsfm to set it up.
neepheid says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 10:57
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Can someone explain how the Welsh clubs can play in the English leagues, when there is a Welsh league they could play in? Or an English club in the Scottish league? UEFA must surely have accepted these arrangements, so another exception to their policy wouldn’t be much of a stretch.
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The English league set up pre-dates the formation of UEFA and FIFA, therefore the Welsh/English anomaly was ‘inherited’.
I would never say never regarding the cross border involvement of clubs from different nations. This issue feeds into a broader power struggles in the game between the big clubs (used to be the G14) and the associations (UEFA & FIFA). Preventing Porto from competing in La Liga or Ajax competing in the Bundesliga could be legally challenged as a restriction of trade with in the EU. (Perhaps one of the legal minds on here could verify this?) Money tends to find its way, if it is profitable for the clubs some club will eventually think the unthinkable, but it is not yet on the radar.
whilst the people on this site go round in circles moaning about this, that and the next, the baddies forge ahead with their plans. seems to me you have already lost the war.
I have always believed that if the big clubs want it to happen then it will happen. If the ECA (successor to G14) decide to ditch UEFA and form their own pan European league structure then thats what will happen. If they were to then hand FIFA an ultimatum then FIFA will cave in. Money talks and Europe is the powerhouse of the game. Without Europe FIFA is a toothless tiger.
wjohnston1 says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 10:57
Some, like me will never be persuaded that Newco are the same with a right to history, titles etc. They are in effect deid.
Sevconians on the other hand will also believe that they are the same club and no amount of discussion will change their minds.
It is highly unlikely that anyone from the SFA will come out and give a definitive answer.
My suggestion to try to draw a line under this is that we take Counsels opinion.
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I would agree that no matter what legal opinion is obtained that some fans on both sides – indeed perhaps a majority – will not accept the decision so I think this could be an expensive and ultimately pointless exercise.
We also should remember that LNS has already provided a legal decision on the continuing nature of an SPL football club and the ability to transfer its responsibilities from one holding company to another.
It may well be that the LNS Commission final decision might provide more along that line which would be helpful but it is highly unlikely that any ‘definitive’ answer will come from the SFA prior to the ending of the legal proceedings as that could be held to be evidence of impartiality especilly as there may be a right to appeal any SPL decision to the SFA.
The weakness in taking Counsel’s opinion is that framing the question to be asked would be very difficult to ensure the opinion is relevant and one of the first hurdles would be to decide what more you want the opinion to provide beyond that already stated by LNS last Autumn.
But probably the major stumbling block to obtaining an informed Counsels opinion is the difficulty in obtaining the necesary evidence much of which is not in the public domain.and there is no way of legally requiring it IMHO.
I think energy and possibly finances would be better spent on ensuring that the LNS process is actually completed and ensuring that the SPL and SFA are aware that kicking the final LNS findings into the long grass isn’t an option. LNS isn’t the problem here it is the suits at Hampden and their various ulterior and sometimes unknown motivators which often appear to conflict with the interests of ordinary Scottish football fans.
wjohnston1
My suggestion to try to draw a line under this is that we take Counsels opinion.
Quite simply we should club together, employ a QC experienced in company law and put all the facts before him/her. Only then, with this formal legal opinion will we be able to move on.
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Sorry but cannot be enthusiastic about that idea.
The key word from above is “opinion” and that is all it would be.
Esteemed legal people opined that RFC should be subject to transfer embargo but another esteemed legal person opined otherwise.
Danish Pastry says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 21:23
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allyjambo says:
Monday, January 7, 2013 at 20:24
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I doubt, too, that any comparison with the EPL is worthwhile as they have 3 teams relegated each season, so there’s a lot more chance of being in a relegation battle, and more European places up for grabs too …
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Ally,
I reckon the EPL innovation of the playoffs is worth taking on board north of the border. They knew some extra spice was needed. Three up / three down and the whole drama of the final games is sometimes the most fascinating part of the EPL / Championship season. I’m not pessimistic regarding a return to the bigger league, if it includes this kind of drama. I can only see positives for the viewing public. After all, the Championship is apparently among the top 5 in Europe for clout, and it maintains competitiveness and excitment in spite of its hefty 24-team make up.
Otherwise, if we Scots must go continental, then maybe we should be looking at Holland and their successful system rather than an already failed system of 3 x 8.
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DP,
Sorry for the delay in replying.
My reference to the EPL was more in response to a suggestion that we could take it as an example to contradict the point that mid table teams, in an expanded league, would see diminished interest and crowds once safe from relegation and have no realistic chance of a Euro place. I can see no point in comparing the success of a vastly superior league to ours but do agree that the play-offs provide excellent entertainment and would be of benefit in deciding promotion/relegation to/from the SPL.
My main point in my post, though, was that there are far thornier issues to be dealt with before changing the format of the leagues. I think that is proven by the fact that a man, Longmuir, while trumpeting yet another restructuring, is at the same time praising people who have insulted, in a way no one has ever dared before, the game, the SPL, the SFA and the SFL, and, even if TRFC are not fast tracked back to the top tier, he’s clearly smoothing the way for them to the ‘rightfull place’ they never, ever, had a right to before, and using, what he probably perceives as a more emotive subject, as cover!
I
TSFM
Did you get revised material?
2 simple questions which will decide if oldrangers and proxyrangers are one and the same.
will the £millions of debt be paid?
why not?
john clarke says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 02:47
briggsbhoy says:
Tuesday, January 8, 2013 at 01:08
‘… it would be easier for us all to move on if the SFA came out and said that ” Sevco are a new company and are not a continuation of the Old Rangers.’
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briggsbhoy, ‘what oft was thought, but ne’er so well expressed’.
You’ve encapsulated the whole of what this blog is about.
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Really? I’d like to think it was more about the state of Scottish football in general but I’m willing to acknowledge that others have a narrower agenda.