The “Lawwell Letter” is trending everywhere this week. To elucidate, it is email sent to (among others) Peter Lawwell and Eric Riley of Celtic on 26 July 2012 by SPL CEO Neil Doncaster.
The email came with an attached copy of the Five Way Agreement (hereafter “5WA”, the deal between Sevco, Rangers, the SFA, the SPL and the SFL). Now that it has been made public, it seems safe to speak openly about what it all means for us as folk who believe in sporting integrity.
I would preface my comments with a caveat though. On the face of it, the Celtic Chief Executive appears to have misled the gathering at the recent Celtic AGM. He was asked by a shareholder if Celtic were involved in the Five Way Agreement. Lawwell replied, “No”, and gave same “No” response to the follow up question, “have you seen it?”
Given that a copy of that email was in the possession of a few folk before that AGM, I have to admit to being surprised by that answer – although even more surprised at the apparent lack of due diligence implied by the lack of knowledge of its content.
We have attempted to contact Mr Lawwell to ask him if he would like to comment on the apparent discrepancy between the evidence and his answer (and I am sure we are not the only ones to have done so). To date, we have received no response. Given the complete lack of acknowledgement of the existence of this anomaly in the MSM, we should perhaps assume that none will be forthcoming.
Perhaps there is an explanation (yes I know), but Celtic should know, like Rangers old and new have come to realise, that silence on these matters breeds deep suspicion and distrust.
Assuming for the minute that Occam’s Razor applies here, there may be an uncomfortable truth emerging for Celtic fans – that Rangers (old and new) do not have a monopoly on dishonesty. There is also an uncomfortable truth that should emerge for Rangers fans too – that as we have said all along, this has never been about just Rangers, but about the governance of the game.
If the Celtic CEO did lie to the AGM a few weeks ago what are the consequences? He broke no laws as far as I can see. One insider I spoke to said simply this,
“So he lied. So what? What happens now? It’s irrelevant”
That is of course absolutely true. As long as controlling shareholders are happy that Resolution 12 is buried, and that no deep inquiry into governance is held into the workings of the game in Scotland, the lie is nonpunishable, though it would be a mistake to believe that accountability is confined only to the corporate rules governing Boards and shareholders; the corporate veil of “I was only following company policy” can be readily challenged in the court of public opinion, which has no statute of limitations.
What all this demonstrates of course is that Celtic have been saying one thing to their fans and shareholders, nodding agreement in private meetings about how appalling Rangers behaviour was, tut-tutting over how amateurish the authorities were, and wringing their hands in frustration at what a sham the LNS inquiry turned out to be.
At the same time, they have done nothing, allowed small shareholders to spend not inconsiderable suns progressing the matter, and quietly hoped that the “appetite” for justice would diminish so they could get back to whatever it is they and the rest do when subject to little or no scrutiny.
Whilst ten in a row is on the table of course, they can get away with it. To Celtic fans right now, understandably, nothing else matters. But what if TIAR is derailed? Not a stretch to imagine that the Parkhead kitchen could get uncontrollably hot in that circumstance. And when the TIAR squirrel finally ends its scurry, in either success or failure, where will the fans attention be diverted?
Perhaps the arrogance that permits making (allegedly) false statements to a general meeting, and (allegedly) misleading shareholders over Res 12 is borne of the knowledge that the parachutes are ready to be deployed when either of the above scenarios come to pass? If TIAR is achieved or goes south, are they already prepared for an emergency exit?
Celtic have two major shareholders whose combined holding is over 50% of the club’s shares. Dermot Desmond and Nick Train. Desmond is now in his eighth decade and Train is reportedly having some business difficulties. Both may well be moved to get out anyway, but fan unrest would make their decision a whole lot easier.
And Lawwell himself is – if you believe the MSM – on the wanted list of nearly as many top clubs as Alfredo Morelos.
The foregoing of course is extremely “Old Firm” centric, and as the two biggest clubs in the country they certainly have the biggest impact on the game, culturally, socially and financially. However there is no get-out clause here for others.
We KNOW there is evidence of fraud surrounding the licencing issue in 2012. We KNOW there is evidence of a cover up over that, and the EBT-related registration issues for Old Rangers. We KNOW that the Five Way Agreement was signed by football authorities in the knowledge that it would rob their own rules of judicial authority with regard to compliance by RFC prior to 2012.
We also know that NOT ONE club has taken a meaningful stand against any of it.
Clubs are saying one thing to supporters and doing their best to derail those supporters’ efforts on the other. We can also infer (not unreasonably) that the folk who run the clubs think that we as fans have no right to interfere in how they run their operations.
As I said earlier, Celtic can do what they like whilst TIAR is live, but afterwards, however it ends, the fans and shareholders involved in Res 12 will still be asking questions. Celtic in particular know how fatal it can be to alienate their own fan base – a fan base that has flexed its muscles with devastating effect for the boardroom in the past. And it is the wrath of the fans of all clubs that will eventually see the charlatans get their just desserts.
Our job as fans is to continue to hold those who care little for the honour and beauty of football to account, to continue to press them on their refusal to deal with arguably the biggest sporting scandal in Scottish history.
The bottom line (which is of course what the folk in boardrooms care about) is this. They need us far more than we need them. As fans of different clubs, the sensibility of those of us at SFM recognises that the real battle, the real war, is not between rival fans or rival clubs, but between the arrogant, self-entitled clique who run our game; who lie for fun, who cheat and belittle the sport; and the good folk who make it possible for the game to prosper.
Resolution 12 is not just about Rangers – nor is it just about Celtic. It deserves to be embraced by every true football fan in the country. The Res 12 franchise needs to widened
Sooner or later the fans will demonstrate their unhappiness with the money men. They did it in 2012, and they will inevitably do so again.
fishnish 10th March 2020 at 23:08
‘…Done a shoal of hills, the day. ..’
%%%%%%%%%%
Hmm! You’re surely not auld enough to have done that at Gullane? Wi’ Jock Wallace?
But enjoy, while we suffer rain and cold neverendingly, or so it seems.
All is well again down Govan way with £20m incoming………….. at least according to the currant bun.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5372848/rangers-20m-investment-asian-hong-kong/
BTW, contrary to the Sun, neither George Taylor nor George Letham are directors of the club. However, they are shareholders with stakes of 9.24% and 4.71% respectively.
easyJambo 11th March 2020 at 00:12
'..£20million worth of investment through a share issue..'
%%%%%%%%
The 'Sun' piece seems to suggest that RIFC will go to the market in the knowledge that there is already a buyer pledged to buy what's on offer?
Barry Scott doing his bit?
To the tune of £20 M?
Oh! excuse me while I switch off the washing machine!
"closing in on " "could bring about" "sunsport understands" "poised" "could invest further" all extremely speculative language , More chance of Morelos going to Beijing for 20m.
This talk of £20m new money moving to Ibrox. Let's say it happens – where does it actually get them, other than ensuring they will win the Close Season Cup for a new nine in a row all of their own? That is of course the cup when no games have to be played therefore they won't need to worry about teams actually beating them. It will be the media who decides what team is going to sweep all before them in Scotland in the forthcoming season and award the trophies on that basis alone.
On the other hand getting a very Rangers friendly journalist to run with this story couldn't possibly be related to season ticket renewals, could it!!!!
Must be season book renewal time again.
JohnClark@00.38
Switch off the washing machine and start up the Mystery Machine. This sounds like a job for Scooby Doo and a group of pesky kids. The mysterious investors will probably turn out to be the janitor and an old lighthouse keeper who lost all their money when Rangers 1872 went bust. Tune in next week for the next exciting episode.
Well I'm just thinking about the day ahead in the Lanzarote sun (Playa del Carmen for me, Fishnish and Timtim
) and just wondering how often a story of incoming millions has broken at a time like this for RIFC/TRFC!
Still, if that news cheers up the bears as much as it's dampened my spirits, having tuned in in the hope of more deserving news for them, I suspect that within the next 3 weeks – till the 'end of the month' alluded to – if they are on sale, then a number of STs will be bought more readily than otherwise would be the case, I suspect.
I wonder, too if there's any significance in the figure £20m (it was a similar amount in the most recent player sale nonsense)! Could that be the required quantum for, say, survival?
easyJambo 11th March 2020 at 00:12
All is well again down Govan way with £20m incoming………….. at least according to the currant bun.
…
SunSport understands a mystery Asian investor and a Hong Kong-based backer are poised to plough millions into the Ibrox club,
…
SunSport understands both Far East businessmen have provided Gers with proof of funding.
=============
Aye, one of them will be Hong Kong Phooey!
Before reading about the 'proof of funding' my immediate, cynical thought was: announce that the deal was virtually done prior to the end of this month.
But, as it was not yet signed off for 'legal matters' the investors had provided a [worthless] 'comfort letter' of some sort – to enable TRFC to obtain their approved, UEFA licence for next season.
After approval, the deal collapses for various reasons.
Mibbees I'm being too cynical…?
https://twitter.com/garylineker/status/1237666249414520834?s=21
Looks like the Pools Panel will have to convene to sort out results for the rest of the season.
” there was no reason to treat the football club itself as “new” simply because the assets that make up the club had been transferred from one company to another”
There is of course, much more to what "makes up the club". Pesky things like; league membership/share, SFA membership, financial commitments and obligations, liabilities, debts and of course tax dues.
Conveniently, these can be forgotten about when dealing with the great Ibrox/SFA/SPL/SFL swindle. Compliant media including the spineless BBC provide the distractions befitting of illusionist David Copperfield.
StevieBC 11th March 2020 at 09:51
'…had provided a [worthless] 'comfort letter' '
%%%%%%%%%%%%
I'm laughing as I remember that ars.hole of a Del Boy- type who, in return for the loan of a few quid to pay his rent, gave evidence about providing a 'letter of comfort' regarding a certain individual 's ability to access millions.
Hi all, new poster, long time admirer of the site and content.
Couple of things I wanted to air If I may. Coronavirus impact and the timely £20m injection for down Govan way.
Will there be a theme by the Scottish football powers to 'postpone' rather than play games behind closed doors as seems to be the English answer? It is potentially the less litigious option for clubs' earning losses etc. Question is though postponed to when or Abandoned altogether after a period of time?
£20m injection to the Rangers, scant detail so far but as speculated through this blog, timing could be key here for at least 3 areas.
A positive news story for the fans to dig deep for SB renewals.
Lastly, if Phil is correct Stevie has been promised even more transfer market jam for the upcoming season to keep him sweet (pardon the pun) and to avoid the messy manager settlement that could tip them over the edge and bring UK wide attention.
I have a soft spot for Accies. Does anyone know the charged brought to Imrie? It seems all we know is it's regarding a 'yellow card' from a couple of season's back. I believe you can bet on almost anything these days, can you bet on number of cards? They must have pretty substantial evidence of this I would think to be as specific.
"Douglas Park will also provide additional funding"
Why now ? where was he when they chose to go to Close and pay exorbitant rates, where was he when they went to Laird for an interest bearing loan ? So this mystery investor will buy 20m of shares at the new issue then buy King's shareholding out , hmmmmm, wouldn't that put them above the 30% threshold and trigger another offer for everybody elses shares? Was this proof of funding a verbal re-assurance that was seen by a BBC correspondent ? Fool me once……….
Julian Wolhardt name and £20 m crops up on Ibrox club forums. As mentioned previously what difference is this going to make if true. They have debts to pay UEFA ffp has to be adhered to.. Roll up roll up buy your ST now.
The £20m investment in new RIFC shares as stated in the Sun would mean 100m new shares being created at the apparent standard issue price of 20p a share.
The last RIFC AGM authorised the issue of a nominal £1m in new share capital. The nominal share value is 1p a share, so the issue of 100m new shares is the maximum approved at the AGM.
There are currently 260,631,982 shares issued. The additional 100m shares would represent 27.8% of the enlarged shareholder capital, so in itself would not prompt a full offer as it's below the 30% threshold, unless the investor(s) already held a stake in RIFC.
Not attempting to downplay the dangers of coronavirus , but why is football and it's fans being demonised ? Rugby Union is affected as well to a lesser extent , but why are other sporting events , concerts , cinemas and shows , Parliament even , deemed safe environments for crowds to gather ?
easyJambo 11th March 2020 at 13:46
The £20m investment in new RIFC shares as stated in the Sun would mean 100m new shares being created at the apparent standard issue price of 20p a share…
================
eJ, you should be the NOMAD for RIFC!
King wouldn't care if you're not licensed / compliant – and if you could do a 'homer' paid in cash, it just might put a smile/grimace on his coupon!
easyJambo 11th March 2020 at 13:46
‘..The £20m investment in new RIFC shares as stated in the Sun..’
%%%%%%%%%
Just to be clear in my own mind, this is not in any way a public offer, which would require a prospectus?
Just a couple of guys , or maybe 3, being invited privately to buy new shares?
Club 1872’s percentage will take a significant hit.
I wonder if anyone in a regulatory function routinely has a look at this kind of thing?
Re the SFA advice of clubs checking their Insurance policy. Any club that has it will know about and any that don't are too late. No Insurance Company would provide new cover now.
In short, the SFA's advice is a usual absolutely useless.
John Clark 11th March 2020 at 15:44
Just to be clear in my own mind, this is not in any way a public offer, which would require a prospectus?
==============================
A prospectus is not required as RIFC is not a listed company. Had it been listed, it would also be exempt from preparing a prospectus if the share issue was to be aimed at a limited number of investors (under 150).
Ballyargus 11th March 2020 at 15:52
In short, the SFA's advice is a usual absolutely useless.
————————————————
Ach you know the Sweet Eff a's Ballyargus. They speak in roonaboots ways.
I took it more to mean, "When yir deid, Dinnae run greetin' tae me".
FAO John Clark
Lord Bannatyne's opinion in the David Grier v The Chief Constable request for summary decree has now been published on the courts' website. Just the 108 pages to read
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/court-of-session
I've now had a skim read through Lord Bannatyne's "opinion" on the Grier v Police Scotland case.
It is clear from the document that there are opposing views from the two sides as to the interpretation of evidence, or the reliance that should be placed on same.
Lord Bannatyne decided that he couldn't grant Summary Decree as he considered that Police Scotland held a position that was at least defendable by argument, and that the matters could only be determined at a proof (trial) hearing.
As it is a live case, I won't offer my opinion on how the case will play out, other than to say that the document suggests failings or inconsistencies in the accounts of both sides.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-premiership/table
Error on BBC website – there’s a surprise! – They have ‘Rangers’ on 70 points instead of 67. The GD for Celtic & ‘Rangers’ wrong too, also to ‘Rangers’ benefit. I have reported it.
Wishful thinking methinks!
@EJ
so 20m gets you 27.8% (under the 30% threshold) but "both are keen to become involved at ibrox and could invest further if king is willing to sell his shares."
how much more can they invest ? and who will buy King's shares because it can't be them ? Wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy out King and get the same %age of the company* for 12m rather than 20m then have 8m left over to pay for Kent . As usual none of this feel good story is adding up or making sense
jimbo
gone now mate
Yip that's it sorted Tony. I contacted their complaints dept.
SunSport understands a mystery Asian investor and a Hong Kong-based backer are poised to plough millions into the Ibrox club.
……………………….
I remember when the ibrox fan base use to demanded to know the identity of investors and hold back their season ticket buying until they found out who they were.
Changed days down ibrox way.
Cluster One
maybe it's a misprint and it's actually hong kong protestors
Sunsport understands
"I didn't say it was true"
"Yes you did"
"No Minister I said I understood it to be true , I may have misunderstood"
Isn't language wonderful
Timtim 11th March 2020 at 19:33 …
"…how much more can they invest .."
………………………….
They may not be buying jointly, of course, but as separate investors, spending 10 million each? …If they actually do exist and it's not a 'buy your season ticket now' ploy.
And McCoist said: “Who are these people? I want to know who these people are. I’m a Rangers supporter and the Rangers supporters and the Scottish public deserve to know who these people are…."
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
if King is willing to sell his shares.
………………….
Does that money then not just go to king and not the RIFC?
redlichtie 11th March 2020 at 21:58
And McCoist said: “Who are these people?…
=====
Will never tire of that quote.
He deserves to be reminded for the rest of his days.
(Did he actually ever apologise to that family?)
StevieBC 11th March 2020 at 22:56
redlichtie 11th March 2020 at 21:58 And McCoist said: “Who are these people?…
=====
Will never tire of that quote. He deserves to be reminded for the rest of his days. (Did he actually ever apologise to that family?)
—————————————————–
Far from it Stevie……It was dem pesky bampots wot done it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCifTCKJ5jc
StevieBC 11th March 2020 at 22:56
(Did he actually ever apologise to that family?)
………………
https://twitter.com/ClusterOne2/status/1238002013562187776/photo/1
Corrupt official 12th March 2020 at 00:05
====================
First time I have seen that in its entirety. Well done to Al Lamont for asking the questions. It was amazing to find out there were actually other Journalists in the room, which you only become aware of when they collapse laughing at the feet of McCoist at the end.
What a huge problem the media in this country are in terms of fairness being applied in the governance of Scottish Football. If they demanded it and put pressure on the authorities constantly, then it would happen. Instead they were and are quite happy for rules to be made on the hoof to suit one club only.
upthehoops 12th March 2020 at 07:24
I note he took the huff a bit wrt "Clarity and transparency", when it came to his own contract lock-ins and remunerations. Maybe not as bone-crushing as the other outstandings, but still a major deterrent to potential buyers should they deem to engage any potential managers of their own choosing, who they felt may have done a better job for a fraction of the price.
easyJambo 11th March 2020 at 16:29
The most recent Opinion in David Grier v The Chief Constable is worth reading if only to clarify what Senior Counsel for David Grier meant when he previously (end of February?) said he was looking forward to cross examining DCI R (obertson). Looking at it from DCI R’s point of view it might explain the current empty shelves in the toilet rolls section of supermarkets.
I still can’t work out how far out of step you’d have to be (polite advice, impolite advice, cautions, warnings, final warnings…) before a Court ran out of patience with a witness in a fairly run of the mill Civil action and when presented by a Petition for Interdict, (presumably by David Grier), together with the evidence showing why Interdict was necessary the Court granted the Interdict.
The Opinion is also worth reading if you want to read a reference to a senior Scottish police officer conducting an interview and his conduct being described as “sectarian abuse”.
Who was it that came up with the line “The Greatest Little Country In The World”? Was that Alex Sa… ?
Nope, I think I’ll leave it there.
LUGOSI 12th March 2020 at 09:04 et alia:
Could it be:
Ultravox?
Ultraviolet?
Ultra Vires?
LUGOSI 12th March 2020 at 09:04
Having read the full document, you will know that the defence has alternative views on the evidence. I’ve seen a number of the CF documents referenced in Lord Bannatyne’s opinion and they do appear to offer support to both sides in their arguments.
The proof hearing when it is scheduled later in the year will allow the judge to assess whether or not DCI R(obertson) acted without probable cause and malice. That is a high bar in terms of the burden of proof required.
As you point out, Robertson’s cross examination will be interesting, assuming that he actually takes the stand.
easyJambo 12th March 2020 at 10:17
"……….As you point out, Robertson’s cross examination will be interesting, assuming that he actually takes the stand. "
………………………………
I've now read the whole judgment.
I think that Lord Bannatyne's judgment is the only one he could reasonably have arrived at-there are so many elements that actually need to proved/disproved by sworn evidence that there was no way he could say that all that was needed was to set the amount of damages due!
Indeed, I am inclined to think that the arguments supporting on 'absence of probable cause and malice' are not all that strong. Further, I'm inclined to feel that Grier's Counsel might be considering advising him to drop his case.
[The 'sectarianism' allegations don't seem to make sense, if they are based on some view that DCI R as an ardent 'Rangers' fan ( allegedly) was seeking vengefully to get at some religiously based sectarianism that was behind what he thought was a criminal conspiracy to kill his club!
Isn't the allegation made only in respect of the DCI's interaction with Philip Duff and over the latter's refusal to give access to documents? Duff was hardly in the mould of a 'Green Brigade Tim', even if he might incidentally be a 'Catholic' ( I assume that the sectarianism allegation is related to the supposed 'religious' divide between Catholics and Protestants!)]
I am intrigued by para 351. Why mention the former Lord Advocate, if the arguments relating to any actions of his were inconclusive, without mentioning what precisely those arguments related to?
I look forward to any trial. Would it be a jury trial?
John Clark 12th March 2020 at 11:39
——————————————–
The "sectarian abuse" was described as an attempt by DCI R(obertson) to intimidate the D&P interviewee. It was used as an illustration of the alleged heavy handed and inappropriate conduct of the police throughout the investigations, ergo a demonstration of malice.
I can't recall the context of the LA's involvement. The Whitehouse and Clark actions against the Lord Advocate are still live, so we may find out more when those cases eventually reach a proof hearing.
I don't think that the case will be dropped as Grier is covered by D&P insurance with Novae.
eJ, I think King might want you at Ibrox as his legal counsel as well as NOMAD!
Well played: you know your stuff.
John Clark 12th March 2020 at 11:39
John, I don't think you have to be a Catholic to be intimidated by a police officer making it clear he hates everyone who is not an Orange ba*tard and Rangers supporter like himself when in police custody charged with/investigated over an alleged offence against his beloved football club.
Bury’s demise shows Football League must tighten FFP rules, review says
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/mar/12/bury-demise-shows-football-league-must-tighten-ffp-rules-review
easyJambo 12th March 2020 at 12:24
'..It was used as an illustration of the alleged heavy handed and inappropriate conduct
Allyjambo 12th March 2020 at 15:02
'..I don't think you have to be a Catholic to be intimidated by a police officer making it clear he hates everyone who is not an Orange ba*tard and Rangers supporter '
…………………………………..
I take the point about intimidation being intimidation however it is expressed.
I just couldn't see it as being motivated by sectarianism in the setting of an office in England and towards (I assume) an Englishman, assuming that Duffy wasn't a Donegal accented travelling supporter of Celtic!
I was intrigued by para [347] "..Lastly Mr Smith relied on various factors surrounding the detention of the pursuer and his appearance on petition. These circumstances I think can be construed as perhaps showing malice on the part of the pursuer. However, I believe they would have to be assessed in the context of the whole evidence led at proof."
—-
(Twice in my own life I have felt intimidated by the polis (with no sectarian under/over tones.!)
First time was in Shettleston,when I surreptitiously tried to read the desk sergeant's number with a view to complaining about his bullying, indifferent manner towards an auld wumman whom I had helped into the station, having seen her fall on her knees possibly having been hit by a passing car.
He was a right sod, leaning over aggressively to show me his number while telling me to 'get up the f.cking road now if you know what's good for you.'
The second time was a couple of years later, in West Campbell St, when I stopped to watch as a police constable had a guy up against the wall , quizzing him, and gave him a massive open-handed slap in the face.
The driver of the police car parked a few yards down the street yelled at me ' Hey, you, get tae f.ck doon that road and mind your own business")
There's a procedural hearing in the Grier case next week.
LORD DOHERTY – C Munn, Clerk
Tuesday 17th March Between 10.00am and 1.00pm
Procedural Hearing
CA86/19 David Grier v Philip Gormley – Kennedys Scotland – Ledingham Chalmers LLP
John Clark 12th March 2020 at 16:39
Luckily you met good ones !
I think it can be said that the Ibrox pitch is a disgrace – even dangerous for the players, imo – and it would make sense in my eyes to move Sunday's fixture to Parkhead and play this one after the split . It should be relatively easy to arrange the 800 away supporters tickets , and the home support use ST's as normal . Even catering supplies could be utilised .
So to clarify. According to the Scottish Government it will be fine to attend an event of more than 500 people until 23:59rs, Sunday 15th March. A minute later it won't be.
I wonder if there is a condition in the 5-Way-Agreement to cover this!
Yep, that tatty field of a pitch at Ibrox is certainly not conducive to playing entertaining, passing footy.
…and, I wonder who it was who lobbied Sturgeon to 'helpfully' delay the ban until Monday…?
For any favour, could someone at BT Sport put Alex Rae in a 'press' (as in the auld Scots word for cupboard)?
Its all very well point scoring regards whether or not anyone and everyone is trying to help T'Rangers get the much needed gate and hospitality cash from Sundays game but lets not kid ourselves that the 800 or so Celtic briefs won't be taken up for the chance to see their rivals put to their enemy to the sword at home.
Be it a virus, terror related incidents, military coups etc, the most fervent football fans (i.e fanatics) will always try and do whatever it takes to attend games they believe to be of importance.
If people were that concerned the stadium, in all sections, would be empty regardless of what the powers that be said.
wottpi 12th March 2020 at 21:20
Its all very well point scoring regards whether or not anyone and everyone is trying to help T'Rangers get the much needed gate and hospitality cash from Sundays game
—————————————————————
A fair enough comment wottpi, and I offer no argument, but it's not about dumbos who care, or care not about catching the disease. It's about limiting the spread of the disease onto the wider population. Containment and control.
With fans arriving and returning, from and to far and wide, there is no sense in permitting such a mass gathering. I say that in relation to all matches…..There will be a lot more deaths, and one additional fatality due to a fitba' match is one too many.
wottpi 12th March 2020 at 21:20
‘…Its all very well point scoring regards whether or not anyone and everyone is trying to help T’Rangers get the much needed gate and hospitality cash from Sundays game ‘
…………………………
Well, wottpi, we have already had a First Minister trying to influence HMRC in the matter of the tax debt owed by a now defunct, tax-cheat and sporting cheat, of a football club.
Now we have a First Minister being specially careful to to choose a date ,for a ban on large assemblies ,that makes sure that a very important game for a cash-strapped club that claims to be the same club as the club that a former first First Minister lobbied for, can go ahead.
How or what are we to think -other than suspiciously?
That is the real evil that the 5-Way Agreement has inflicted on Scottish Football-there is a belief that no trust whatsoever can be placed in anything that is said, done, or pronounced by the Scottish Government or the Football Authorities that relates to TRFC in any way or context.
That is the damnable thing!
Trust has been so broken that it’s difficult to see how it can be restored;
except by acknowledgement of error by the Football Governance people in a statement that restores truth to the records of football.
Jingso.Jimsie 12th March 2020 at 20:57
‘….For any favour,..’
……………..
I once had a teacher of French who used that expression ( perhaps as a genteel equivalent of ‘ah, for f..ks sake!’)
He was the guy who first drew our attention to the football reports of the late Cyril Horne in the old Glasgow Herald as being examples of almost poetic prose.
He himself was not in the least interested in football, being not at all a sports person ( although it was rumoured that he had played cricket at Cambridge University)
Eh, you’re not his grandson, by any chance?
paddy malarkey 12th March 2020 at 16:51
'..Luckily you met good ones !'
……………….
And of course the most of them are good ones!
And I would without hesitation, and in so far as I was able ,go to the help of a uniformed police officer if he/she was being set upon in the street.
A near neighbour is a lovely policewoman, the daughter of a good friend is a policewoman , and in the mid 1960s I myself toyed with the idea of joining the London Metropolitan polis.
There will always be a percentage of bad articles in any 'profession'.
In relation to Scottish Football governance that percentage reached unacceptable levels.
The rationale behind the proposed arrangements for mass gatherings is anybody's guess but the sceptic/cynic in me thinks there can't be many institutions banking, literally, on hosting about 100,000 customers in four days and it seems to not be a problem.
There's still time for the authorities to show they are serious and announce draconian measures commencing about 2 o'clock on Sunday afternoon.
Permitting spectators at a fitba' match during this unique and dangeous time is madness. It has the potential to make the previous Ibrox disasters look like a teddy bears picnic. There is no need to even attend, or be in the slightest bit interested in fitba', to become one of the hundreds possibly thousands, of victims. .
Only the other day we had Slippy Gee telling us that players need protection….From themselves…
over a comment Tav made about his team having no bottle. Awwww poor luvvies!
Who will ,..who can?, protect the elderly and infirm, probably even the healthy from this lethal plague, should this mass gathering be permitted.
It is worse than irresponsible. It is so easily preventable.
John Clark 12th March 2020 at 22:46
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Spot on John. Ever since the Scottish First Minister / football authorities tried so hard in 2012 to have Rangers illegal tax avoidance overlooked we have every right to question their motives. If some people believe the financial health of Rangers is more important than the health of the nation then that is exactly the type of suspicion the mistrust you speak of tends to create. I would like to think the current First Minister would not prioritise matters in such a way but who knows what talks have taken place behind the scenes and who has been able to influence them.
Perhaps it’s best summed up by some of the usual suspects in the media. On Radio Clyde two nights ago there was a very solemn debate on how some things in life are more important than football. This was swiftly followed by some rather gleeful chat of how Rangers having a home crowd at the first leg, while Leverkusen would not have one in the 2nd leg, could be a big advantage to Rangers. In short, I don’t really think they could care less – all they want is Rangers to succeed by any means. Again, since 2012 if people suspect that is what it is all about above all else then the authorities and the media only have themselves to blame.
It astounds me that a total crowd of 100,000 is allowed within a few days of a ban on non essential 500 plus gatherings. Even if it’s only for the given reason that Police & Ambulance services are required elsewhere.
The Scottish Government and Scottish football authorities stink. Silence from the clubs of course. Money is king.
Just heard that both Chelsea and Arsenal [edited] can’t play at weekend as they have publicly declared that they have the virus in their squad/management.
The TRFC v. CFC game could still be called off if the virus is declared present at either club…? Or not.
IMHO, if the game is still on, then those with tickets have a personal responsibility – to themselves, fellow fans, their families, the NHS, etc. – to decide if they should really attend.
If they are of mature years, with the stipulated ‘higher risk’, underlying health issues, and/or they are displaying relevant symptoms – then they simply shouldn’t be anywhere near Ibrox – and regardless of whether they “haven’t missed a game for X years”.
The idea of banning mass activities in an attempt to flatten and elongate the epidemic makes sense to me as a precaution because throughout some of our society will need access to critical care and we must avoid it being overrun.
Critical care in the UK is already compromised by 10 years of austerity cuts.
For instance I heard one expert say we have less than half the hospital bed capacity per head of population in Italy.
Having read some Coronavirus stuff from Italy in the last couple of days where doctors are now having to decide which critical patients arriving are going to get the key intense support which can save them and which are being left unaided is quite disturbing.
I am naturally optimistic but I think that at this moment in time that the authorities should err on the side of caution.
The nonsense of our First Minister saying that one minute after midnight on Sunday that the maximum number allowed is 500 whereas one minute before there is no limit is palpable.
Scotland should not be playing Wales on Saturday behind a sell out crowd.
Probably last night’s game at Ibrox should have been behind closed doors as should all SPFL games going forward too.
That is until the players start to get the virus and then the season is probably over.
None of us want that but not enough is known and even one life lost because of our politicians and those who administrate our sports lack of decisiveness is one too many.
Shankly said “Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I don’t like that attitude. I can assure them it is much more serious than that.”
A lovely quote but he was saying that with his tongue firmly in his cheek and would have agreed how serious it was today and how football has a serious role to play.
That starts with protecting its core stakeholders (us the fans) and should start now, not on Monday morning.
The current plans are inexcusable.
Finloch 13th March 2020 at 09:08
…football has a serious role to play. That starts with protecting its core stakeholders (us the fans) and should start now, not on Monday morning…
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Agreed.
And that's why I'm curious as to what – if any – communication there has been between the SFA and Sturgeon.
And, if there was SFA communication: was it to demand an immediate ban to protect the fans, [aka the paying customers], or was it demand a delay to any imminent ban?
"The dugs in the street" know that this decision to impose a – delayed – ban from 0001 on Monday just doesn't make any sense.
In terms of youth football the current advice on web sites is as follows
As per the Scottish FA and SPFL Joint Response Group Update, ‘the Department of Culture, Media and Sport announced yesterday that, as things stand, there is “no rationale” for closing or cancelling sporting events in Britain because of coronavirus.’ The SYFA is in ongoing, regular contact with the Scottish FA, who are in turn liaising with the relevant experts and authorities.
All member leagues should schedule fixtures as normal at this time, whilst being mindful that this status may be subject to change as the situation continues to develop.
‘John Clark 12th March 2020 at 23:15
…Eh, you’re not his grandson, by any chance?
‘
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I very much doubt it. (Although there was a popular expression in one place I worked which went along the lines of, ‘It’s a wise man that knows his own father’, which I always took a a polite form of calling someone illegitimate.)
Maternal grandfather was a Scots-Irish railwayman. Paternal grandfather was a Scots-Irish miller (as in flour-). Both were born in the 19th century.
I suspect that the expression ‘for any favour’ is a regional Scottish usage.
John Clark says at 00.08
Apropos of nothing really (but to shift the focus away from Coronavirus topic for a bit), you took me right back to my childhood with your use of the term 'bad articles' – one of my late father's descriptions for the more anti-social and less law abiding members of the community (in our case Govan).
That's it – it has brightened up my morning! Hopefully I can contribute something 'on topic' soon.
All champions league and Europa games postponed next week according to sky news
Sky News Breaking
@SkyNewsBreak
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57m
All matches in the Champions League and Europa League next week have been postponed amid COVID-19 outbreak
Elite English football suspended with immediate effect until at least 3 April.
Will the Ibrox tills still be open on Sunday?
If any of the players or coaching staff involved at Ibrox on Sunday, declare they have the virus in the next two weeks, Sturgeon, Doncaster & Maxwell should resign immediately.
That’s not to mention even the people in the crowd.
BBC Just Now
Scottish football postponed over coronavirus
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The remainder of the Scottish football season has been postponed indefinitely over fears about the coronavirus, the SPFL has confirmed.
Leagues and other sporting events have been suspended until further notice, with Scottish football the latest to respond to the spread of the virus.
The postponements begin with tonight’s match between Motherwell and Aberdeen, and Queen of the South against Ayr United.
Must stick in Sturgeon's craw that Scotland had to follow England's lead in suspending football, by 3/4 of an hour. She made a massive mistake when she announced her 500 plan starting on Monday! All to suit the establishment club's lack of money. Until her hand was forced. Likewise Maxwell & Doncaster.