by Auldheid for the Scottish Football Monitor
On these pages at least there is a mounting lack of trust that the Scottish Football Association can or will govern our game in a fair and honest manner that recognises the principle of sporting integrity as paramount.
This mistrust is equalled only by the frustration at being unable to do anything to change the attitude and action of those at the SFA (and Leagues) responsible for that governance, a frustration compounded by the reluctance of the mainstream media to focus on the very issues of trust and integrity that concern us.
Back in early 2010 Celtic supporters represented by the Celtic Trust, various Association groups and individuals felt the same frustration and found a way to make their voices heard at the SFA – by using their club as a channel of communication to articulate their concerns.
A resolution was agreed and passed to Celtic to convey to the SFA and it was heeded by the club. There is no reason in why a similar conduit cannot be used by supporters groups of all clubs.
The enormity of the task, to get the majority of trusts and associations of all clubs to support this approach and give it sufficient weight, should not be underestimated, but in the interests of amplifying our voice, it is worth the effort.
Based on that 2010 experience, and on the discussion that has taken place on TSFM we have arrived at a (now amended) resolution below under the auspices of TSFM and which has been sent to all representative club supporters groups.
We believe one of the reasons the SFA and SPL were able to mislead (or simply fail to provide leadership) was because of the lack of clarity surrounding who should take provide that leadership and what principles should have been paramount.
The SFA were as tied to the commercial impact of Rangers demise as the SPL and indeed had to be reminded by the supporters of the importance of that sporting integrity. In the aftermath of the Rangers implosion, both the SFA and Leagues on the face of it appear still too commercially oriented to act in a way that balances commercialism and sporting principles.
We have attempted to address this in the resolution below. It also contains additional points raised already on TSFM and elsewhere. It is designed to assist in the widening of accountability in the sport.
We are not wed to the draft or the language. It is there to be revised but we hope it contains enough food for thought to be acceptable to the supporters groups and the clubs.
As recently as today, the SFA has published a Fans Charter. We welcome this development, and although it does not address our specific concerns with respect to governance it is a step in the right direction (http://www.fanscharter.com/).
Some of the principles published are;
- Challenge is to make a National Fans Charter known, accepted and influential
- Getting fan involvement in drafting charter important to acceptance, influence and growing awareness.
We think our resolution is an even bigger step in the direction of those principles.
DRAFT Proposal for Representative Supporter Groups e.g. Trusts or Associations to send to their club to convey to the SFA/SPL/SFL Boards.
We [Insert Association/Trust name here] and in association with fans’ groups of other clubs, ask [Insert Club name here] to convey the following to the Scottish Football Association, SPL and SFL on our behalf.
1 We believe that the commercial viability of Scottish football at the professional level depends absolutely on the belief by supporters that sporting integrity is at the heart of all competition, and that those governing them and the rules by which they exercise governance, must hold sporting integrity as paramount above ALL other concerns. This belief can be summed up in the one word “trust” Without trust in those responsible for governing Scottish Football, commercial viability will suffer, to eventual ruin of our game.
2 There is a perception (accompanied by some dismay and anger) among football supporters throughout Scotland that those who were charged with upholding the rules of the SFA and SPL/SFL, only did so partially – and even then only because of the threat of supporter action if they did not.
3 There appears to be no distinction or order of hierarchy between those governing the game (the SFA) for whom we believe preservation of sporting integrity should be the prime purpose, and the leagues (SPL/SFL) for whom commercial aspects are (understandably) uppermost. As a result sporting integrity lost its primacy and it was left to supporters to insist on it.
4 Consequently many Scottish football supporters have lost confidence that the Scottish Football Association will fulfil their purpose of safeguarding the sport. Indeed their silence following the revelation of a 5 way agreement last summer on the future of the liquidated Glasgow Rangers has exacerbated this loss of confidence in the SFA’s ability to administer professional football in Scotland in a manner that reflects their duty of care to all aspects of the game and everyone who takes part in it.
5 Decisions and deals have been taken by the SFA, SPL, and SFL without any public scrutiny. The operations and decisions of those bodies lack transparency and they are not accountable in any recognisable form to the football supporters throughout the land, without whom there is no professional association.
6 In our view this loss of trust can only begin to be restored by the SFA publically committing itself to:
(i) The production of an unequivocal “mission” statement of purpose/intent which will state (in whatever form they may exist) that maintaining sporting integrity is and will always be their prime goal. The statement will also describe how they intend to ensure this principle is followed in their interactions with Leagues and Clubs, particularly when commercial decisions that might undermine sporting integrity are implemented by the Leagues. (e.g. In the case of TV contracts, sponsorship or any significant league reconstruction).
(ii) Further: in recognition of the inability of some individuals to provide leadership during the past year simply because of conflicts of interest, take steps to remove any such conflict, and in doing so enable the organisation and its office bearers to function unhindered.
(iii) In the interests of transparency, publish the “five point agreement” that allowed The Rangers entry into SFL and SFA, provide a supporting rationale for entering into the agreement, and confirm that the terms have been or are being complied with.
Along with other trust restoring measures (see attached Annex) these steps should mark the end of the continuing lack of trust in the authorities.
7. We appreciate that it may be the start of next season before there is any visible evidence of our concerns being addressed although the statement of purpose/intent by the SFA (i) and action at (ii) can be readily put in place – would be a welcome early development.
8. All club’s supporters groups will be watching closely for signs of progress before advising our members and our other supporters if we feel the necessary trust restoring steps are being taken and advise that they can purchase their season books for 2013/14 knowing that sporting integrity is once more absolutely paramount in Scottish football to the betterment of our game.
Signed __________________________ on behalf of
[Insert supporter trust/association name here]
Date ______________
Annex to resolution.
The following is a list of other measures that the SFA should take in order to satisfy supporters that they should be entrusted with the job of governing Scottish football.
- To increase transparency and accountability in a meaningful way – possibly via creation of an active supporter’s liaison group drawn from representative supporter groups of each club. Its remit, using an agreed consultative mechanism to generate dialogue, to hear supporters’ concerns and consider them before key decisions are made. In an industry that is totally interdependent it is folly to exclude a major stakeholder from key decision making.
- A tightening of and an annual and independent audit of the process for granting UEFA Club (FFP) and National Club licensing reporting to the representative supporter liaison group as well as other SFA members to ensure all clubs are living within their means.
- Introduction of a rule requiring all Scottish football club directors to declare any financial interest/shareholding in any club other than their own and to rule that disposition of those shares/interest should be a part of a fit and proper assessment of a person’s qualification to hold office at an association club.
- A feasibility review of Scottish refereeing to assess the potential for creating a professional service that the SFA provide to the leagues by recruiting and training referees, but where the leagues monitor and reward consistently good performances to an agreed standard. Given the sums dependent on referee decisions, the current system must change for everyone’s sake including the referees.
- A full explanation about the circumstances (including dates) surrounding the award of a UEFA Club licence to Rangers in spring/summer of 2011 when there was unpaid social tax that prime facie did not meet the conditions for deeming the granting of a licence acceptable under the UEFA FFP rules on unpaid tax (the wee tax bill).
The [Insert Club Name here] Trust/Supporters Association asks [Insert Club Name here] to convey our concerns above with their provenance to the appropriate authorities as they see fit viz:
- Football Authority in Scotland (The SFA)
- Europe (UEFA)
- Scottish Government (on the issue of accountability to supporters and proper checks and balance governance.)
Off topic …
Saturdays when I was young consisted of two weekly highlights.
The obligatory trip to Pittodrie when the lads were playing at home was generally preceded by a visit to 1-Up record shop on Rosemount Viaduct. In this wee shop, one could pick up everything from Japanese import Led Zep singles to the latest indy punk offering (I eventually sold two Jap Iron Maiden singles purchased in 1-Up for approx 100 times the £3.50 they cost me in 1982 or so … American collectors evidently have way too much cash!).
A fine selection of 2nd hand LPs and 45s was flicked through regularly, very often turning up a gem. The staff (several of whom remain to this day, some 30 years later) were helpful, chatty, and possessed of fine punk hairstyles.
1-Up is finally closing its doors today. A sad loss to the music scene in Aberdeen. Unfortunately I won’t be able to make it into town for a final rake, but I am deeply saddened by its passing.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/league-reform-fans-must-be-ready-for-club-and-tv-boycott-to-ensure-long-term-survival.1359533810
An interesting debate, I thought. Apologies if it has been posted here already.
regarding Longmuir’s comment:
“i am surrounded by rangers fans at home so i know their feelings. i know where they are coming from…”
i’ve been surrounded by rangers fans too…
i knew their feelings…
i think i knew where they were coming from…
i was lucky…
i got away…
neepheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 09:47
3 0 Rate This
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/league-reform-fans-must-be-ready-for-club-and-tv-boycott-to-ensure-long-term-survival.1359533810
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i think looking at football as a business 1st then as a sport is what is killing the game.
You need to have the sporting basis correct – a set of rules that are evenly applied for the benefit of the GAME – not for finances.
If the game is seen to be fair and competitive people will attend.
Obviously clubs have set overheads and costs now which means any immediate reduction in income could be catastrophic, therefore, the clubs need to be given time to prepare for a drop in incomes.
This could be done quite easily, for example, player costs are the biggest single expense to a club. Usually in excess of 50% of turnover. Most contracts with players are for less than 5 years.
So, any change to the rules need to be planned in for 5 years time.
what changes can be made? Well, don’t shake up the leagues and finance distribution models right away.
Instead – merge the number of governing bodies – do we really need 3 chief execs/chairmen for the SFA, SFL, SPL? Top heavy management, we need a cull. Merging the bodies would do that.
At this point in time that can be done without changing the league /finance distribution model.
we can then introduce rules relating to maximum squad size, maximum wage to turnover rations – essentially a wage cap on a club (not individual player)
we can introduce rules about the number of home developed players – that is players under 21 who have come through the ranks at a scottish club (the player doesn’t have to be scottish – just had 3 years at a scottish club before they turn 21)
Any Scottish national or player who has come through the ranks would be considered a home player for the rest of his career (even if they go down south and come back) – there should be maximum number of players in a clubs squad and within that a set number of HOME players. However, each club would be allowed to include any number of under 21 year old players in their squad – so, a squad of 25 in total, with 15 HOME players – but you could have 30 under 21’s in your youth academy who could be called up if needed.
then we get onto the touchy subject of finance.
1st off, clubs should get “prize money” based on
1. position they finish in league
2. # of youth players they field in a season (i.e. take all the possible palyer minutes for the season and express as a % how many of them were were played by youth players)
3. # of Home players fielded in a season – as above for home players
4. maintaining the wage to turnover ration agreed – i.e. 50%
How do we make up the PRIZE MONEY pot?
1. TV and Sponsorship money
and now the controversy starts….
2. gate sharing income (not suggesting we go straight back to 50/50 gate shares, but maybe if 25% of the gate money for any game is put into the prize pot)
3. UEFA income – clubs who play in europe generate income from UEFA, a % of that income (again, 25 – 50%) goes into the prize pot.
4. a transfer tax – all players sold outside scotland will carry a transfer tax – say 5%-10% which goes into the pot.
Now, before all the celtic and fans of well run clubs start greetin, remember, the gate share is NOT simply handing 25% of your gate money to your opponents on that day. the moeny goes into a prize pot. the pot is divided up based on finishing position, number of home/youth players fielded – and all it essentially does is increase the total prize pot. So, a large chunk of that “gate money” will come back to the club who does well in the league/plays more youth/home developed players.
All in all, this will be a hit to a club like Celtic with a HUGE support and CL income, but the flip side is that it will be a boost to all other clubs in the league – and those clubs will have had 5 years to get their house in order financially and will have to operate the club on a break even basis with costs under control.
The focus will be on developing our own players – and not putting money outside the game
Then we can tinker with the league set up – once we have a number of financially viable clubs with a more stable income stream than simply relying on home gates/tv dross.
the league structure can then have more teams in it – again, allowing for the development of clubs own talent.
I think the above financial model will provide longer term stability for the league as a whole and individual clubs as well. Multiple income streams mean that ifa club has a poor season and fans drop off, they don’t necessarily loose the bulk of their income. Likewise, if doncaster fecks up the tv deal by talking the league down – there are other income streams available.
I would like to see the TV taken in house and put on a PPV basis – all games played on sat at 3pm and people can pay to watch at home if they want – but match price for PPV would be the same as a ticket price. Alternatively, have an SPL channel with NO live games broadcast, everything played on sat at 3PM and then MON-FRI every game would have a full 90 minutes broadcast on SPL TV – could have pundits/refs/players/manager interviews after each game
Would need to show 2 or 3 games a night.
there, thats my vision
neepheid says:
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 18:11
63 0 i
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goosygoosy says:
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 17:22
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nowoldandgrumpy says:
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 16:51
Interesting
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-year-of-the-share-issue/#more-3519
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Very interesting indeed.
Not being up on such matters, the questions on my mind were always
1. Did the named investors along with Charles and his mates actually invest £17m in hard cash
2. When did hard cash get transferred to confirm the deal.
3. Does the floatation have to be based on the cash on the bank or just the pledges, which may have a cooling off period?
Like any charity event it is easy to get a pledge a tenner but often more difficult to collect the cash when it comes to the crunch.
If anyone with experience in such matters can answer these questions then I am sure myself and other would be interested.
neepheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 09:47
4 0 Rate This
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/league-reform-fans-must-be-ready-for-club-and-tv-boycott-to-ensure-long-term-survival.1359533810
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also, i take issue with the writer of the above, a rangers fan (not neepheid), now telling us sporting integrity is best for the game and and in the process:
throwing in a dig about the Irish league which he regards as inferior
and
calling for boycotts
Not at all surprised at the media having a sevconian with a poorly hidden agenda as their inaugural fans opinion piece.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 09:01
Off topic …
Saturdays when I was young consisted of two weekly highlights.
The obligatory trip to Pittodrie when the lads were playing at home was generally preceded by a visit to 1-Up record shop on Rosemount Viaduct. In this wee shop, one could pick up everything from Japanese import Led Zep singles to the latest indy punk offering (I eventually sold two Jap Iron Maiden singles purchased in 1-Up for approx 100 times the £3.50 they cost me in 1982 or so … American collectors evidently have way too much cash!).
A fine selection of 2nd hand LPs and 45s was flicked through regularly, very often turning up a gem. The staff (several of whom remain to this day, some 30 years later) were helpful, chatty, and possessed of fine punk hairstyles.
1-Up is finally closing its doors today. A sad loss to the music scene in Aberdeen. Unfortunately I won’t be able to make it into town for a final rake, but I am deeply saddened by its passing.
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angus,
since the record shop will close and you won’t get the pleasure of going in tere ever again,
why don’t you offer to buy their history for maybe a £1 and you can reminisc all you want.
It is a shame that discussion about league reconstruction is continually dragged into debate about how any proposal might affect The New Rangers. I am not interested in how it affects them. Frankly, I wish they would just go away. I am interested in the long term well-being of scottish football as a whole. I have always been against the idea of small leagues playing four times a year. It is possible to be near the top of the league, have two or three bad results and then be in a relegation battle. The argument for such a structure is that there are less ‘meaningless’ games. I would argue that it is hard for clubs, many of whom operate on a shoe string, to attempt to improve their team when the margin between pushing for promotion and fighting relegation is so small. It has lead to stagnation.
With larger leagues there is less chance of relegation therefore, slowly, more teams would be likely to attempt to improve themselves with less risk. It is a long term view. I have believed this to be true since before the original 10, 10, 10, 10 structure was introduced. I think that if two larger leagues had been introduced then, our football now would be far better than it is. By the way, to real fans who turn up week after week to support their club, there is no such thing as a meaningless game.
Any change to the league structure should be implemented at the start of season 2014/15. It is not a matter of delaying reconstruction. On the grounds of sporting integrity all clubs should know, before any competition begins, what the outcome of the competition will be.
My favourite team is currently playing great football and is in an exciting fight for promotion. Unfortunately we lost our manager yesterday. He has done a fantastic job for us. I wish him well (especially in his first match against The New Rangers) but fear his departure will severely dent our promotion hopes.
There are many wee clubs in this country whose sporting aspirations are denied by the current league structure. There is no automatic right of entry to the lowest league through promotion from a feeder league structure. This is wrong and should be addressed in any proposed reconstruction. There should be a single organisation that looks after the whole structure of scottish league football from the top of Scottish League Division 1 to the feeder leagues.
My hope is that scottish football can reorganize itself for the benefit of all.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 10:49
============
A lot of sensible ideas in that post. Sharing of gate receipts will be the big issue for fans of the big clubs, but speaking as a Celtic fan, to me there are only two options. Sharing of gate receipts on same basis, to ensure a good competitive environment in Scotland. or leave Scottish football.
I am totally opposed to the latter option. Let TRFC toddle off to England if they want, good riddance I would say to that, but Celtic are a Scottish club, and proud to be one, unlike a certain club who seem to be ashamed of their own nationality.
So as far as I’m concerned, Celtic just have to give up some income. I can understand that for the directors of a PLC that presents enormous difficulties, but the current arrangements are killing the game. A dead game will produce zero income for anyone. Change is essential.
All TV rights should, I agree, be taken in-house and sold on a pay to view basis. That must produce more money than the abject deals that Doncaster negotiates with Sky. There was a feasibility study done on this a couple of years ago. Has anyone seen the report? In this age of transparency, surely it should be on the SPL website?
But the first step must be a complete clear-out at the top, a merger of the leagues, and a genuine review of how much these “authorities” cost, compared to the set-up in Norway or Portugal, for instance. Does anyone truly believe that Doncaster, Regan, Longmuir and Ogilvie represent value for money? Or that we couldn’t get better people for less money?
Once the authorities have been thoroughly sorted out, then, and only then, should a radical restructuring of the leagues be looked at. I have an open mind on the future shape of the leagues, but I have a totally closed mind on this point- I trust nothing that emanates from any or all of Regan, Ogilvie, Doncaster and Longmuir.
Oops, re-post with headers
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 01:02
28 0 Rate This
newshedenvy says:
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 23:54
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Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 06:46
18 2 Rate This
newshedenvy says:
Wednesday, January 30, 2013 at 23:54
0 8 Rate This
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It is a shame that discussion about league reconstruction is continually dragged into debate about how any proposal might affect The New Rangers. I am not interested in how it affects them. Frankly, I wish they would just go away. I am interested in the long term well-being of scottish football as a whole. I have always been against the idea of small leagues playing four times a year. It is possible to be near the top of the league, have two or three bad results and then be in a relegation battle. The argument for such a structure is that there are less ‘meaningless’ games. I would argue that it is hard for clubs, many of whom operate on a shoe string, to attempt to improve their team when the margin between pushing for promotion and fighting relegation is so small. It has lead to stagnation.
With larger leagues there is less chance of relegation therefore, slowly, more teams would be likely to attempt to improve themselves with less risk. It is a long term view. I have believed this to be true since before the original 10, 10, 10, 10 structure was introduced. I think that if two larger leagues had been introduced then, our football now would be far better than it is. By the way, to real fans who turn up week after week to support their club, there is no such thing as a meaningless game.
Any change to the league structure should be implemented at the start of season 2014/15. It is not a matter of delaying reconstruction. On the grounds of sporting integrity all clubs should know, before any competition begins, what the outcome of the competition will be.
My favourite team is currently playing great football and is in an exciting fight for promotion. Unfortunately we lost our manager yesterday. He has done a fantastic job for us. I wish him well (especially in his first match against The New Rangers) but fear his departure will severely dent our promotion hopes.
There are many wee clubs in this country whose sporting aspirations are denied by the current league structure. There is no automatic right of entry to the lowest league through promotion from a feeder league structure. This is wrong and should be addressed in any proposed reconstruction. There should be a single organisation that looks after the whole structure of scottish league football from the top of Scottish League Division 1 to the feeder leagues.
My hope is that scottish football can reorganize itself for the benefit of all.
So, Green misses out on £6,000,000 worth of assets for a business they bought for £5.5,000,000!
Sadly, I don’t think BDO will be watching.
Looks like some expert in competition and commercial law thinks The Rangers have a good chance of getting straight into the EPL!
Rangers v The FA: Bosman for the Clubs
Rangers could sue the FA and any other opposing football authorities in competition law for orders forcing their entry to the English football leagues. They could do so in the Court of Session in Edinburgh. It would be Bosman for the clubs.
A piece by Eoghainn Maclean, an Advocate practising competition and other commercial law.
Rangers could sue the FA and any other opposing football authorities in competition law for orders forcing their entry to the English football leagues. They could do so in the Court of Session in Edinburgh. It would be Bosman for the clubs.
That is Rangers’ route to the FA Premier League. In his 14 years of denying that there is one, Richard Scudamore, its chief executive, has been wrong for, at least, 12 of them.
Rangers’ Charles Green has vowed to explore ways for the club to play in the English game. Since 2009, UEFA have made it clear that it would not oppose that. The SFA has now indicated likewise. The Football Conference has suggested the possibility of the club being admitted to its premier division, England’s fifth tier.
The English FA, the FA Premier League and the Football League now seem to be the only bodies still insisting on the geographic division of professional football markets in the UK by opposing Rangers’ move. The club’s case in competition law is its prime lever to force or override those bodies’ consent. It seems, however, Mr Green may not have been advised of it. This whole issue is about restrictive trade practices not sex-discrimination.
Rangers’ case would be founded on two pillars of UK competition law, Chapters I & II of the Competition Act 1998. They are applied in accordance with EU law and are directly enforceable by private undertakings in the ordinary courts.
No competition case is “easy” but, in my opinion, Rangers would have a good prospect of success. In essence, their case would be that they are a business undertaking that should be free to provide its services as a football club to the buyers of those services anywhere in the UK. That the buyers are, principally, the organisers of domestic football league tournaments, who distribute shares of revenue in return. That the English football authorities are cartels which abuse their dominant position on those markets in the UK by having rules which exclude professional clubs that do not play their home games in England or Wales. That is a hard core competition abuse, worse than price fixing and Rangers would have a good case in principle.
The English authorities would have two possible defences, on which they would have the burden of proof. Neither would, in my view, succeed.
The first, “the sporting exception for fundamental rules of the game”, would require them to show that their rules, which exclude Rangers from the English game, are essential to their conduct of the sport and only have an incidental economic impact. That Welsh senior clubs participate in their leagues and that those rules have helped create a vast and growing disparity in income between Rangers and Swansea City, a club with no comparable history of on-field success who can now consistently out-bid Rangers for on-field talent, are facts that demonstrate how difficult it would be to prove this defence.
The second, “the competition justification” would require the English authorities to prove that those rules are, in practice, more pro-, than anti-, competitive. That is to say, the splitting of UK football markets produces better economic results for clubs, fans and other consumers throughout the UK. For that, the English authorities would, at least, need to prove that Rangers’ admission to the English game would lead to their league matches producing less revenue by attracting smaller crowds and less viewers. Rangers would not have to prove the opposite, though plainly they would have a good prospect of doing so.
If the court accepts Rangers’ case and rejects the defences, then the club would have been the victim of a civil wrong by the English authorities. Ending anti-competitive practices is a fundamental aim of competition law and a court order requiring them to change their rules and admit Rangers would do that in this case.
The Court would not require Rangers to enter at the bottom of the English National League System. The victim of a civil wrong must, so far as the court can, be put in the position it would have been had the wrong not been committed. If Mr Scudamore and his colleagues have, indeed, been saying “no” consistently for 14 years, then the club has been wronged continuously since, at least, 2000 when the Act came into force. Had Rangers been admitted then, where, is it likely, they would be now? With evidence of their past achievements, domestically and in Europe, their gates and their revenues, even in a small league and over years, including this season in the Scotland’s fourth division, there would be a strong argument that they should be admitted to the Championship, at least.
The court could not refuse Rangers a remedy just because it might “open the floodgates” to other cross-border club transfers. Competition law requires the ordinary courts to give private businesses, like Rangers, effective remedies. Its whole purpose in giving them rights is to have them do the job of enforcing that law by obtaining court orders that bring market abuses to an end.
In any event, the likely number of cross-border transfers would be limited. While Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Hibs, Hearts and perhaps one or two other Scottish clubs might, on the same grounds, benefit from entry to the English leagues, for many others it would be unwise. Only Celtic would have a similar case for entry to a higher division. Inverness CT, if they got into League 2, would likely find their supporters less interested in fixtures with Exeter City than with Ross County, their broadcast income little higher and their wage, travel and other costs substantially greater. If they stayed, they would be amongst the biggest fish left in the Scottish pool, with better prospects of domestic success and European qualification.
On the continent, Ajax might well get a transfer to the Bundesliga, relying on the EU competition law from which the UK Act is derived. For most, however, transfers between member states’ leagues would be even less attractive for similar, but more marked, reasons. They would be further restricted by additional hurdles in EU law that Rangers would not face under the Act.
Football authorities are not above the law. Since the Bosman case, FIFA and UEFA have repeatedly lobbied for EU legislation and, latterly, non-binding declarations that the splitting of domestic football into national territories within the EU is, nonetheless, compatible with competition law. They have been consistently refused.
What, probably, stopped Rangers going to court in the past, were the rules in FIFA’s, UEFA’s and the national associations’ constitutions which prohibit clubs from taking action against any football bodies in the ordinary courts.
Courts in the UK are unlikely to give effect to such prohibitions, especially in a competition abuse case. The EU Commission has insisted on their removal from the rules of the FIA, motor sport’s governing body and from FIFA’s rules, in so far as they affect player transfers, which was scope of the case it was then dealing with.
There is always a risk, however, that a court might not be persuaded to grant all the interim orders necessary to prevent FIFA, UEFA and other football authorities from being able to make sanctions against an “offending club” or its parent association in the short term.
While Rangers were competing at the top level in Scotland and trying to be competitive in Europe, with all the expenditure on players, staff and everything else that that required, they may have assessed the risk as too great. Now, however, that they face being cast even further adrift by Scottish league reconstruction, they have little to lose and much to gain from finally taking this competition case to court.
A bit of topic. I see that the Old Airdrie is just about to be liquidated and the fans are not allowed to buy the old name and crest.
http://www.acadvertiser.co.uk/lanarkshire-news/local-news/monklands-news/2013/01/30/airdrieonians-fc-trust-can-t-revive-name-65864-32705884/
SFL clubs to consider 12-12-10-10 league restructure plan
By Brian McLauchlin
BBC Scotland
Comments (6)
The Scottish Premier League has told the Scottish Football League clubs gathering at Hampden that they have no problem with a 12-12-10-10 set-up.
On Monday, SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster said its 12 clubs were “unanimous” in their backing for a 12-12-18 plan , possibly for next season.
With some SFL clubs fearing an 18-team tier would create too many meaningless matches, a new plan has emerged.
It would involve expanding the number of senior clubs by two to 44.
The 30 SFL clubs are discussing the options at their meeting at the national stadium in Glasgow but a formal vote is very unlikely on Thursday.
PROPOSED SCOTTISH LEAGUE RESTRUCTURE
SPL proposal is for a 12-12-18 structure
Top two leagues to split into three leagues of eight after 22 matches then play a further seven home and seven away games
Leagues will be called Premier Division, Championship and National League
Top eight teams to play for title and European places; middle eight to contest promotion and relegation in and out of Premier Division; bottom eight to decide who drops into National League
11 out of 12 SPL clubs need to vote in favour of plans, while the proposal requires approval of 75% of SFL clubs (Rangers do not have a vote)
One league body to replace SPL and SFL
Instead, a vote by 29 of the clubs – Rangers, as an associate member, do not have a vote – will most likely take place in March, with 75% needing to agree to the proposal for it to be ratified.
The SPL says it had suggested a 12-12-10-10 formation to the SFL board but that its member clubs had preferred a three-tier plan.
Earlier, in mid-November, the SFL clubs had unanimously voted for a 16-10-16 structure for season 2014-15.
Of course, if the 12-12-10-10 format is backed by the SFL clubs, then there will be five tiers in Scottish football once the bottom four of the top tier and the top four of the second tier form a mini-league after 22 matches in their respective divisions.
There would be play-offs between the third and fourth tiers but it is not yet known what the movement of teams would be between the second and third tiers.
Also, the clubs would have to decide how they will add two more clubs to the ranks of the proposed new league that will be run by one body, following a merger of the SPL and SFL.
For example, will certain clubs be invited to apply, or will there be a general call for applications?
Ross County and the two teams that formed to create Inverness Caledonian Thistle emerged from the Highland League when the leagues were restructured in the 1990s and that league may provide a new recruit.
Similarly, the East of Scotland Football League, featuring teams such as Spartans and Edinburgh City, may have clubs interested in switching divisions.
A 12-12-10-10 set-up may suit Rangers, who currently enjoy a 20-point lead in the Third Division.
They were angered by the suggestion that they could win the league title but still find themselves playing the same teams next season as they have faced in the current campaign.
The most likely scenario of any practices against cross-border leagues being deemed unlawful – and I genuinely think they are – is that quite simply any club from anywhere within the EU can join any pyramidal structure at its entry level, but no higher – as the competition rules of the leagues involved would forbid it – so Rangers (sic) if they wish, could prove their case and be allowed to join in the bottom ladder of the English pyramid – but only when they have submitted three years of accounts.
It cannot be retrospective as no application to join the English leagues has ever been considered before in the case of Rangers and certainly not in the case of Rangers (sic).
In short they could win the right to enter one of the northern regional leagues in three years time- assuming they actually submit accounts for that period and are not palmed off, resold, and reowned in the interim by various other companies ( highly likely imo) in which case three years of accounts may well not have been submitted.
It might be worth the SFA putting in a clause that applying to join a foreign league would lead to a suspension of membership ( ot in Rangers’ case their associate membership).
also, THE Rangers are a 4th tier scottish team, why would they get accepted straight into the EPL? surely that is above their current position?
let TRFC take on the SFA, FA, EPL, SKY, UEFA, FIFA, let them set the precedent – just as Bosman did.
Look how well it worked out for Bosman – career ended, no huge income, his name on a legal judgement that has made many youngsters rich beyond their dreams, but nothing more.
spanishcelt says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 12:56
======
Very interesting. By the way, I think even this fine legal mind puts them no higher than Championship. However he asks a question which I might be able to answer for him.
“The Court would not require Rangers to enter at the bottom of the English National League System. The victim of a civil wrong must, so far as the court can, be put in the position it would have been had the wrong not been committed. If Mr Scudamore and his colleagues have, indeed, been saying “no” consistently for 14 years, then the club has been wronged continuously since, at least, 2000 when the Act came into force. Had Rangers been admitted then, where, is it likely, they would be now?”
The answer is that they would certainly be in liquidation. Which is their only genuine achievement over the last 14 years. And they would not have found the English FA quite so accommodating in their time of need. Although you would need to accept that it is the same club even to get that far. But I won’t go down that road.
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
valentinesclown says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?
—————————————————————————————————————–
We have a new manager.
He might be a well known Hibby but he also has some history with one side of the West of Scotland divide and he continues to polarisesopinion for reasons nothing to do with his capabilities as a football manager.
His new number two might be also be adjudged to be a Celtic-minded person by people who care about adjudging such things.
So next move was to get a number 3 to make a statement that the new management team represents more than just one half of the pathetic divide. (Probably after advice from the finest football ambassador in the world and following on from similar “balancing” appointments by previous regimes.
And the Motherwell manager fitted that bill just perfectly.
Finally Mr Wallace’s inclusion from left field is a strategic and easily seen through attempt to cement the inclusive nature of our new management team.
It is just as cynical a move as Mr Black’s call up and late appearance as a wonder sub a few months back.
mercdoc says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:07
A bit of topic. I see that the Old Airdrie is just about to be liquidated and the fans are not allowed to buy the old name and crest.
http://www.acadvertiser.co.uk/lanarkshire-news/local-news/monklands-news/2013/01/30/airdrieonians-fc-trust-can-t-revive-name-65864-32705884/
=================================================================
Surely a sad day for Gym Trainer.
neepheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:30
6 0 Rate This
===============
Does his whole argument not revolve around them being the same club as the one who has continually been refuse entry, which they are clearly not.
valentinesclown says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
1 0 Rate This
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
========
A new world record, for the most international caps ever won anywhere by a 4th tier club, in the history of world football?
tweet from Jim Spence
“show of hands at sfl meeting sees 28 clubs tell Sfl board to continue negotiations to drive ahead restructuring plans for next season.”
Fun and games await with the potential of a Sevcovian representing Scotland at Pittodrie.
Not a wise move in my opinion.
garrymc73 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 14:24
1 0 Rate This
tweet from Jim Spence
“show of hands at sfl meeting sees 28 clubs tell Sfl board to continue negotiations to drive ahead restructuring plans for next season.”
==================
Which plan though?
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/a-question-of-trust/comment-page-11/#comment-33464
Humble Pie’s post is a first class piece that highlights the cognitive dissonance in every department of our society.
The key recognition is that the bodies who take charge of almost every field – medicine, law, education, government, nutrition, banking, sport and many others – do the most damage to the supposed ends of these institutions.
It is not through accident or incompetence. Even when the general public is angry enough to mobilise itself into activism to demand change, the people in charge do not respond to the core demands for integrity and honour but instead concentrate their efforts on finding a way to carry on running their shop as before but with a slightly different window display. I blogged earlier tis week about how the American people brought about the fall of Richard Nixon only to see his appointed successor, Gerald Ford, abuse his executive authority thwart the ends of justice by unilaterally pardoning Nixon. ( Here’s the link http://henryclarson.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/all-the-presidents-men/ )
I have no doubt that there are many people at the SFA who will not hesitate to do something similar with Rangers if they get half a chance. That is why HP’s superb post should be circulated far and wide. The people running the game have done absolutely nothing to suggest for a moment that they can be trusted to do the right thing in this scandal. It is vital that they are not only kept under the closest scrutiny but also that the scrutiny is illuminated by the clear understanding of the dynamics at play. In that regard, Humble Pie’s post is as good a source of illumination as any.
NotTheHuddleetc
Lots of good points in there.
On CL/Uefa prize distribution it is my view that the way it is done was a major contributory factor in the current mess the game finds itself. Had the prize not been so big in terms of tackling Rangers debt SDM might have adopted a different approach in 2008 when the Big tax bill landed.
When survival depends on CL money even a real honest mistake is viewed with suspicion.
Suspicion is the enemy of trust and much of our current ills can be traced back to the pursuit of CL money.
On what we pay to watch a game I have been able to watch all of Celtics games over internet on Celtic Tv from Spain for about £3.70 a game. It could have been even cheaper at about half that but I signed up for the Overseas Season Book that allows my unused seat to be used by someone who could not afford a ticket. SB holders pay around £27 for home games only and the thinking behind what constitutes support has to change. In terms of Celtic across their support as a whole but with simiar change across the spectrum of Scottish football where I think the realisation of how interdependent the whole business is, is being hammered home by reality itself.
Hope you kept a copy of your post it is worth revisiting.
:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 14:23
9 1 Rate This
valentinesclown says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
1 0 Rate This
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
========
A new world record, for the most international caps ever won anywhere by a 4th tier club, in the history of world football?
——————————————————————————————————————
World record of Scotland managers keeping certain fans onside?
Without fear or favour?
No Scottish club has as yet been refused entry to the English leagues as none has, as yet applied to join. Gretna were once in the FA set-up I believe and so could have , had they been sufficiently successful, reached the EPL. But Gretna died in a fit of the utmost reckless stupidity!
The whole piece is a ludicrous article from start to finish – the author is not a lawyer but an idiot. Had Rangers actually applied in 2000 ( they didn’t) and been refused on the grounds of geography, then his argument may have had some validity – but as no applications have ever formally been put in place then there has been no refusal. Utterly preposterous nonsense.
valentinesclown says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
————————————————————————————————
Plenty time for him to call off with a late injury once he realises game is at Pittodrie 🙂
Auldheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 14:41
Hope you kept a copy of your post it is worth revisiting.
===================================================
it’s not been deleted has it?? 😉
SpanishCelt
Before I retired I was involved in some large value IT purchasing and became passingly familiar with EU competition law and was convinced then the EPL constituted a cartel and a case against them to either be allowed the opportunity to enter or be compensated for being excluded could be made.
I concluded that Celtic were unwilling to pursue because UEFA and Scottish football were agin it. The fear of reprisal for going to court was also there.
However attitudes are changing at UEFA because of the plight some clubs find themselves in (partially caused by Uefa’ mal distribution of wealth) and in The Rangers there is the perfect stalking horse since they are out of Europe for a while and have less to lose.
The consequences of a succesful challenge would open the doors to a UK National league with large clubs playing across the country and smaller ones in regional leagues with promotion to the national ones.
And not before time imo.
SpanishCelt
Rangers v The FA: Bosman for the Clubs
Is it not the case that The Rangers are in SFL3 ILLEGALLY ?
No 3 Year Accounts ?
Ah Reckon The English Leagues probably have similar Rules
BUT not being a Legal Type Myself
Maybe Celtic could have a closer look at “This Argument”
Aye/Naw ?
Auldheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:24
The consequences of a succesful challenge would open the doors to a UK National league with large clubs playing across the country and smaller ones in regional leagues with promotion to the national ones.
And not before time imo.
—————————————————
the logical extension of this idea then, is that the bigger UK clubs would form a league with the bigger clubs from across europe, so we’d have a European league with a regional pyramid structure underneath that – probably based on geography (or in other words, national leagues)
so we would end up with a scottish league, feeding into a UK league, feeding into a European league
this has it’s own advantages/disadvantages
for example, in the “regional leagues” you would get local derbies – but in the top flight, it would be rare to get local derbies – Milan, Manchester and manchester/liverpool, barca/Real (not really local), Rome, PSG/Marseille (not really local) Glasgow, Ajax/Feyenoord
but, would the lack of games against LOCAL teams in the top league lead to a drop off in interest at the “working mans” level – after all, we all know someone who supports Killie/St mirren/Dunfermline/Dundee utd etc so we have banter around teh game. If you removed Celtic to a higher league – how many Celtic fans would lose a bit of interest in the Scottish game due to not playing local teams?
I for one enjoyed going to different towns/grounds around the country and seeing more of scotland. But that might be gone.
Simply enough, could a European league of the biggest teams sustain a TRUE customer base or would it end up a tv spectacle – and how would that affect the lower level game
Also, I’m sure the “diddy teams” welcome teh occasion to play the big teams from time to time and indeed, it’s big laughs all round the office when a team like St Mirren of Killie give Celtic a black eye in a cup/league game.
i’d be wary of rushing into a regional/UK/European league structure.
whisperer18 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:28
0 0 Rate This
SpanishCelt
Rangers v The FA: Bosman for the Clubs
Is it not the case that The Rangers are in SFL3 ILLEGALLY ?
—————————————–
no, the SFA were able to grant an SFA membership under the rules – they did this by taking the unusual step of transferring a membership
you could argue that the criteria to transfer that membership to a new club should also have included the criteria imposed on any new applicant for a NEW membership, but seems they didn’t think that necessary
yes, they got in where other clubs would have been denied, but they actually didn’t break any rules. (morally it’s outrageous though)
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
=========================
My immediate reaction to his inclusion – perhaps shared by many other Internet Bampots – is that the SFA has ‘leaned’ on Strachan to try and appease TRFC fans, and/or to try to boost the attendance and/or perhaps as a ‘favour’ to TRFC, [however undeserved !] ?
This reaction could be grossly unfair, and any new manager should be given ‘the benefit of the doubt’.
But every SFA related action is viewed with suspicion now, and this SFL3 player inclusion would be consistent with their, IMO, apparent ‘business over sport’ approach.
Auldheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:24
The consequences of a succesful challenge would open the doors to a UK National league with large clubs playing across the country and smaller ones in regional leagues with promotion to the national ones.
And not before time imo.
*****************************
Very much disagree with you re ‘National UK League’: in any case, what happens in 2014, when we Scots vote to look after our own political affairs? 😉 (I know, we’re too feart. It’s one of the reasons a certain Govan club is getting away with so much).
StevieBC says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:45
0 0 i
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Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
=========================
My immediate reaction to his inclusion – perhaps shared by many other Internet Bampots – is that the SFA has ‘leaned’ on Strachan to try and appease TRFC fans, and/or to try to boost the attendance and/or perhaps as a ‘favour’ to TRFC, [however undeserved !] ?
This reaction could be grossly unfair, and any new manager should be given ‘the benefit of the doubt’.
But every SFA related action is viewed with suspicion now, and this SFL3 player inclusion would be consistent with their, IMO, apparent ‘business over sport’ approach.
———————-
A comical suggestion!!
shield2012 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:54
StevieBC says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:45
0 0 i
Rate This
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 13:53
Gordon Strachan includes Lee Wallace in squad for next Scotland game.
Where are we going with this?.
=========================
…
But every SFA related action is viewed with suspicion now, and this SFL3 player inclusion would be consistent with their, IMO, apparent ‘business over sport’ approach.
———————-
A comical suggestion!!
====================
Cheers for that shield2012.
Glad I managed to raise a smile during these trying times… 😉
I don’t think WGS would take kindly to being leaned on. I do, however, suspect this is a piece of “business”.
As a matter of interest, when was the last time a Scotland squad didn’t have an RFC/TRFC player in it? Could we bo looking at another World Record attempt here?
borussiabeefburg says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:50
——————————
we’ll deal with that in 2014!! 🙂
However, the point is, we would have a pan europe league, below that would be regional leagues, then national leagues (and in big countries you could even have small regional leagues within that)
it is more likely that you would have 2/3 of the “big club” top leagues spanning ALL of Europe, then you’d have smaller regional leagues – for example, scandinavia, the British Isles, Iberian peninsula, Benelux and so on
and then beneath these you would have national (country) leagues
OK? didn’t mean to ruffle your nationalist feathers! 🙂
borussiabeefburg says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:50
—————————-
oops, just realised you were addressing that to Auldheid and i’ve jumped in with both feet!
Apologies to auldheid, didn’t mean to answer a point put to you. You are more than capable of addressing it (probably more eloquently than myself as well)
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 15:35
To me, that’s a vision of the future that fills me with horror. Money will really have triumphed at that point. Can’t we just have a nice, clean, fair and competitive Scottish league? I don’t want a UK league, I’m simply not interested. I would honestly prefer an 18 team Scottish league, with a nice day out to Dumfries, Inverness, Methil or wherever once a fortnight (but only once a season each, please!). What’s wrong with that? Yes, I know, I’m a dinosaur.
alex thomson @alextomo
Commission on RFC player payments is complete. Written decision in due course. Judgement reserved until then.
Do we really want an American Style franchise system of perhaps 20 top Clubs in a single European league and hundreds of others going to the wall.
The ECJ has variously recognised what UEFA call the “specificity of sport” and consequently applies anti-competition regulations on a case-by-case.
The anti-competition regulations may not apply where a contrary sporting rule is necessary for the legitimate aims of the sport. What is deemed legitimate in terms of sporting necessity has never been properly tested.
While it might seem trite to say that clubs are restrained in their trade by the EC’s national borders, this is not necessarily so.
A club (as has been pointed out many times) is recognised by UEFA as the legal entity responsible for football activities. While the stadium a club play in cannot move. there is nothing to stop the club/company from relocating to a neighbouring country. This is essentially what the legislation is protecting – the right of a company to operate in whichever country it chooses.
If Rangers (the club/company) want to build (or lease) a stadium in Carlisle and apply to join the FA, they will be perfectly entitled to join whatever English league would let them in.
They are not restrained to which territory they operate in; but they cannot (without a specific exemption) operate in more than one. They cannot play home games in the territory of one association and the away games in the territory of another.
UEFA will strongly defend the existence of the National associations and the operation of leagues within those administrative territories as being in the legitimate interest of the sport.
This is essentially no different from the concept of having regional leagues within the same country. If, for example, the SFL go down the route of having regional leagues at the bottom of their pyramid. Would Peterhead be entitled to insist on being given entry to a Southern Regional League? If that is the league they want to play in, would the EC regulations apply? How could the league decide which “southern” club to move to the North?
Remember also that, for EC purposes, Scotland and England are parts of the same country. There are no cross-border legal issues to consider. For them, this is the organisation of football within a single territory.
Rangers (or any other Scottish-based club that wanted to join an English league) may have an arguable case. But it is no slam dunk. It would take years to go through the courts and the best the could hope for is the right to apply for a place 10 or 11 levels down.
It would be 15 – 20 years from now (if they survive that long) before any Scottish team would have any chance of getting to the top level in England.
Perhaps in time, the SFA may be invited (by EUFA) to submit teams alongside Scandinavian, Baltic and Dutch clubs in the creation of a jointly administered North Europe/Atlantic zone.
Perhaps a full-season (regional) Euro-League might replace or sit alongside the current Champions League.
There are various possibilities for growth. I just don’t see England as one of them.
alex thomson@alextomo
Commission on Rangers player payments is completed. Written decision to come. Judgement suspended until then.
angus1983 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:01
3 0 Rate This
I don’t think WGS would take kindly to being leaned on. I do, however, suspect this is a piece of “business”.
As a matter of interest, when was the last time a Scotland squad didn’t have an RFC/TRFC player in it? Could we bo looking at another World Record attempt here?
——————————————————————————————————————
The last few squads have had no TRFC players in them. Agree today is a disgrace. Why no Paul Dixon?
Oldco and Newco both represented at the LNS Hearing. So much for the ‘We will have nothing to do with this’ stance from Newco.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BB829c1CcAAJVzs.jpg:large
spl press release regarding LNS hearing
HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:18
If Rangers (the club/company) want to build (or lease) a stadium in Carlisle and apply to join the FA, they will be perfectly entitled to join whatever English league would let them in.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If The Rangers (the club/company)build (or lease) a stadium in Carlisle and take their lunatic fringe with them it would be,the best thing that ever happened in Scottish football
Even better than liquidation of the real RFC
Never mind Lee Wallace – what the h3ll is Kenny Miller in the squad for!!!!
andy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:33
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BB829c1CcAAJVzs.jpg:large
spl press release regarding LNS hearing
================================
How can TRFC legal representation discuss the ‘possible sanctions’ at the LNS Inquiry today – when no decision has been communicated ?
Is that process not a bit strange ?
So the QC representing old and new co.is the same impartial QC who gave the judgement for Rangers (IL) in the big tax case?Or am I mistaken.
WRT Lee Wallace selection.
Strachan is a lot of things but daft he isn’t. He has Lee Wallace in there as it would “cause murder” if he didn’t select at least one Ibrox man.
Wallace is a decent player. He is a better player going forward than he is a defender but Charlie Mugrew is a better option.
I think he is looking for the quiet life here.
‘Nae flies oan ye, wee man’.
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:25
3 0 Rate This
Oldco and Newco both represented at the LNS Hearing. So much for the ‘We will have nothing to do with this’ stance from Newco.
==============================
Don’t discount yesterday’s news that the SFA arbitration panel refused to allow NewGers to continue with an action started by OldGers.
LNS’s statement of reasons – and his tortuous (and wrong!) assertion that the Club survived liquidation – has been blown out the water.
I think CG’s lawyers may have whispered to LNS that the SFA have just given a ruling that his club are not the original Rangers FC.
madbhoy24941 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 08:15
12 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 06:46
__________________________________
Good morning Danish!
It is very stormy in my little part of pastryland this morning, that short walk from the car helped clear out any fluff that was stuck between those 2 satellite dishes of mine that masquerade as ears and got me thinking…
———–
Madbhoy,
I’m in the East and it’s windy too. But at least most of the snow has gone.
Jim Traynor used to spout this about there being too many teams. To me in was only a commercial argument. If I was being cynical I’d say it was sort of – ‘heaven forbid people start supporting teams from their community instead of being glory hunters like the rest of us’ – that may be harsh on Traynor but it’s how it sounded to me. As you point out so well, the many-layered cake of football leagues is where the rough diamonds can be found. The pride, dignity and public outspokenness of the wee teams in the past year has put some of the big boys to shame.
Not thehuddlemalcontent
I think that as long as Scotland remains part of the Uk any decision could be ringfenced to apply to the Uk given we are centrally governed with regional offices with certain powers.
As borusia points out this could change but Scottish football could be an example of what can happen when a small country with a small population detaches itself from a larger neighbour who with the exception of football have traded on an equal basis because by and large the same laws apply. However lets not go there or tsfm will rightly red card us.
I think we could quickly get used to fixtures like say an invigorated Hibs or Hearts or Aberdeen from haviing their Bolton noses in the same trough v Bolton or Blackburn in the equivalent of the Championship for promotion.
goosygoosy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:34
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HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:18
If Rangers (the club/company) want to build (or lease) a stadium in Carlisle and apply to join the FA, they will be perfectly entitled to join whatever English league would let them in.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If The Rangers (the club/company)build (or lease) a stadium in Carlisle and take their lunatic fringe with them it would be,the best thing that ever happened in Scottish football
Even better than liquidation of the real RFC
______________________________________________________________________
Have to say the shower would be well catered for in Carlisle as the place is full of them. I would say worse than many parts of Scotland.
Hirsute
He who straddles two horses when riding had best jump off before Silver goes one way and Trigger the other as they charge towards a prickly pear cactus.
A little known Apache indian saying.
The same club argument’s foundations are so sandy it is only a matter of time before it crumbles.
Auldheid says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 17:02
1 0 Rate This
Hirsute
He who straddles two horses when riding had best jump off before Silver goes one way and Trigger the other as they charge towards a prickly pear cactus.
A little known Apache indian saying.
The same club argument’s foundations are so sandy it is only a matter of time before it crumbles.
————————————————-
Ouch!!! 🙂
Tic 6709 says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:42
So the QC representing old and new co.is the same impartial QC who gave the judgement for Rangers (IL) in the big tax case?Or am I mistaken.
————————————–
Representing the various Rangers the SPL press release says is James Mure QC
On the FTT panel was Kenneth Mure QC
HirsutePursuit says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:46
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Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:25
3 0 Rate This
Oldco and Newco both represented at the LNS Hearing. So much for the ‘We will have nothing to do with this’ stance from Newco.
==============================
Don’t discount yesterday’s news that the SFA arbitration panel refused to allow NewGers to continue with an action started by OldGers.
LNS’s statement of reasons – and his tortuous (and wrong!) assertion that the Club survived liquidation – has been blown out the water.
I think CG’s lawyers may have whispered to LNS that the SFA have just given a ruling that his club are not the original Rangers FC.
====================================
HP. This would make sense as it seems that the NEWCO representative did not grace the proceedings until today. Maybe he had nothing of pertinance to say for the first 2 days. Once again I may be wrong.
So who is paying for Oldco legfal fees, surely not BDO?
Legal fees.
TW (@tartanwulver) says@17.12.
Thanks for the correction,i was’nt sure.It was the unusual surname that grabbed me.
must be his brother 🙂
If LNS is now of a mind that Sevco cannot be punished for the crimes of Oldco RFC due to the recent ruling from the SFA re players transfering away from Oldco then what sanctions/punishment can be placed on the Oldco if found guilty? Re writing of the history books will be a consequence but after that there is no real punishment that can be meted out.It will however put to bed once and for all the same club/ different club arguement.
HP
The barrier to any change for the betterment of football in the UK as a whole is the belief that the EPL are in an unassailble position.
A legal challenge that removes this barrier would then result in a step back to design a construct that recognises all the legitimate rights of every uk club to participate.
Such a challenge should not be beyond our collective ingenuity to sort out.
What we have is the worst of all worlds whilst there is an argument that stripped of the gloss a heavily indebted EPL are no better off.
A Govt Select committee has threatened legislation if the FA do not get football’s house in order so the forces for change are on the march.
If better distribution of income is a valid argument for improving Scottish football then why not UK football?
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 17:28
4 0 Rate This
================
Does the leaked draft 5 way agreement not say that there will be no other punishment than title stripping by the SFA?
newshedenvy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 11:27
33 1 Rate This
It is a shame that discussion about league reconstruction is continually dragged into debate about how any proposal might affect The New Rangers …
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Exactly newshed. By the way, I am totally with you on bigger leagues. Limiting to two of 16 just seems to be taking things a bit too far though. The revolving door at the bottom end has to be there so that wee teams can look up and dream. In reality, a process of league trimming can continue until you end up with two leagues of four or one league of two 🙂
One of the guys on Radio Clyde’s phone-in talks down Div 1 teams as having nothing to contribute to the top league. But with SPL teams now cutting back on player wages, not to mention nicking SFL managers, the gap is surely closing. Who wouldn’t like to see a top division with the likes of Thistle, Morton, Dunfermline, Falkirk? With 3 up & 3 down there would be healthy competition and a constant refreshing.
Hope whoever takes over at your club maintains the continuity of the the playing style. Firhill for Thrills indeed!
andy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 17:25
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must be his brother
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One way or another 🙂
But seriously are they related
Carfins Finest
For me being found guilty of breaking the rules is a start.
An assertion that it was done to gain advantage would be the icing on the cake i.e they cheated.
I think we will get the first but not the second (hope I’m wrong) but the consequences of incorrect registration will be a 3-0 result and loss of points leading to titles being removed as a consequence.
That will be hard for Rangers supporters to accept but if it is presented as a natural consequence of breaking the rules i.e an administrative error that nevertheless invalidates a result, I think they will tale that result rather than a judgement that says basically they cheated.
And the next debate to replace oldco/newco one will be they were not found guilty of cheating.
The world however will male up its own mind based on the secrecy and obstruction surrounding the whole ebt business.
So my guess is guilty of improper registration, titles removed mechanisticly as a result, but no official condemnation of the underlying motive ie to gain sporting advantage or cheating as we see it.
Thus their avoidance of admitting wrongdoing continues. It is a hurdle they seem incapable of jumping to join the rest of the human race.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 17:47
Carfins Finest. (@edunne58) says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 17:28
4 0 Rate This
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Does the leaked draft 5 way agreement not say that there will be no other punishment than title stripping by the SFA?
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I believe you may well be correct. But this is the part that CG would not agree to under any circumstances is it not?
Regarding the SFA press release – is it saying that all of the evidence has been heard and the panel are now writing up their decision?
andy says:
Thursday, January 31, 2013 at 16:33
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BB829c1CcAAJVzs.jpg:large
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How does the newco being represented at the commission square with Mr Green’s the previous stance
Green refused to recognise or co-operate with the commission, set to meet on 13 November, and was reported as saying: “That’s what we’re going to spend our time doing, not turning up at supposedly independent hearings where the SPL appoint the jury, set the outcome, and set the punishment before we have the trial.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/18/rangers-charles-green-complaint-sfa
Another world record for u-turns and not keeping ‘promises’?