A Guest blog by redlichtie for TSFM
From what I can see Mike Ashley is likely to be the only game in town for RIFC/TRFC fans unless they want to see another of their clubs go through administration/liquidation.
That particular scenario potentially allows for a phoenix to arise from the ashes but on past evidence it is probably going to be an underfunded operation with overly grandiose pretensions taking them right back into the vicious circle they seem condemned to repeat ad nauseam.
Ashley has the muscle to strongarm the various spivs to give up or greatly dilute their onerous contracts and I suspect that is what has been happening behind the scenes.
From Ashley’s point of view I believe that what is being sought is a stable, self-financing operation that he can then sell on whilst retaining income streams of importance to SD.
I also suspect that he will come to some arrangement with the SFA to dispose of his interest once he has stabilised the club.
The problem for RIFC/TRFC fans is that Ashley is not going to fund some mythical “return to where they belong”, though that is beginning to appear to be the second division of the SPFL where they are heading to have a regular gig.
Like at Newcastle, Ashley will cut their coat according to their cloth. This will mean, again like at Newcastle, a mid-table team with good runs every so often. If the finances can be fixed then they will have an advantage over most other Scottish clubs but in the main we will be back to actual footballing skills and good management being what is important (pace “honest mistakes”).
With recent results and footballing style clearly those are issues that will require attention and McCoist seems likely to present RIFC/TRFC with an early opportunity to address at least one aspect of that if he continues with his current “I’m a good guy” press campaign. It may take just one unguarded comment or action and he will be out.
But will the Bears go for Ashley’s plan? So far they seem antagonistic and still cling to their belief that the world owes them a top football club regardless of cost.
If the fans don’t get behind the current entity I can see Ashley deciding the game’s not worth it and cashing in his chips. Some ‘Rangers Men’ will probably turn up and create a new entity for The People to believe in and Ashley will continue to draw in income from shirt sales and, most likely, charging fans at the world famous Albion car park which he will then own.
The upcoming AGM is crucial and from what we have seen of Ashley so far he gets what he wants.
The crushing reality about to descend on The People is that there really is no Santa Claus. A Sanity Clause, perhaps but no Santa Claus.
First rant of 2015
To think that Spike Milligan drove himself mad under the pressure
of writing genius material for 4 hrs of goon shows every week for years
and Just An Excuse can’t entertain us for half an hour a year.
What utter shite. (again)
Time this show was put to bed.
Dave Allen the previous night?….now thats a different story…. how good was he?
Of course i meant Only An Excuse
ekt1m says:
January 1, 2015 at 1:44 am
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Happy New Year to all our readers. Unless I blinked and missed it, Super wasn’t even mentioned on Only an Excuse. Who’d a thunk it.
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Come now? Don’t be churlish! A mere clown masquerading as a pretend football manager in Govan? How could one conceive of such an eventuality ever coming to pass in such terms?
I mean , it’s not just that the real life Ally McCoist is funnier than the Johnathan Watson spoof, but also that Johnathan Watson spoof is probably a better football manager than Ally McCoist in reality.
There has to be some decorum maintained FFS.
There’s just too many levels for a half hour sketch show… enough material for a ‘One foot in the Grave’ style multi series sitcom at least.
(Dries eyes)
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Its the way I tell ’em.
All the folks on TSFM have a great hogmanay.
Keep at it.
Another year ended and a new one begun.
When RTC made his first blog in late March of 2011 he could have had no idea what he had brought about. He had 17 comments against his first offering. I toyed with the idea of doing a gazette for 2014 but the amount of commentary has now become astronomical. The mods will know the figures but there must be close on 100,000 comments in the last year; far too much to attempt to summarise.
I do recollect the UTT tribunal which introduced the Scottish tax jurisprudence system to the concept of ‘the public’. There was a World Cup as well that was exciting at the time but which has now all but slipped from memory. There were the court proceedings now scheduled to continue in 2015 whereby the sale of Rangers Football Club will be scrutinised.
History has taught that sometimes you’re just in the right place at the right time and this certainly rings true for RTC. It would have been impossible, nay preposterous, to have speculated at the drama that was to unfold. That this was to be largely to the discomfiture of Rangers supporters was unfortunate but as a Celtic fan my regret is somewhat tempered by that greatest of human failings; schadenfreude.
RTC must be wondering what he or she has given birth to. It has grown of its own accord like some alien life form and now seems a permanent fixture of the blogosphere.
Despite an inward glee at the travails attending the greatest rivals of the football team I support, in many ways the moral of the story is nothing to do with football. It seems to me that what we have witnessed is a maturing of the technology. No-one knew what the internet would be used for when it was being assembled. That duty fell to its subscribers; that’s you and me. What RTC and TSFM along with many weightier information hubs have provided is an alternative source of data separate from those traditional channels that had become increasingly untrustworthy. This isn’t just about football. This is about how a diverse group of people with a common interest can work together to bring the ‘wisdom of the crowd’ to bear. It is a wisdom greater than the components that it comprises since thoughts feed off each other and open up whole new realms of speculation. Today football; tomorrow the world.
The legacy of RTC should be an independent governance forum where people are free to make stupid mistakes and brilliant insights. That’s very fitting since the sport of football was nurtured by ordinary folk long before it became a global media icon. Wee people can do big things given sufficient time and dedication.
As for tomorrow, we can anticipate a few landmarks in the distance. In many ways it could be the most interesting phase so far. It might be a bit like getting the correct answers to an examination you have sat as the courts attempt to untangle the messy debacle that so many of us have become familiar with over the years. It looks like these sort of shenanigans can no longer be conducted in secret; not when there is a nosey public sniffing around. The wisdom of the crowd can at times it seems, see round corners.
Thanks for your time and effort mods. If you are sometimes overlooked then perhaps it is because you generally exercise your authority with a light touch.
One final thing; mountebank is an archaic and peculiar word but like much of the rhetoric that appears on TSFM, it is rather amusing.
Castofthousands says:
January 1, 2015 at 3:37 am
Another year ended and a new one begun.
When RTC made his first blog in late March of 2011 he could have had no idea what he had brought about…
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And in case we forget: RTC did win the Orwell Prize [Blog Category] in 2012.
“The Orwell Prize is an iconic British prize for political writing of outstanding quality…the winner is the short-listed entry which comes closest to George Orwell’s own ambition to ‘make political writing into an art’…”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orwell_Prize
As far as I can see, no SMSM journalist has won an Orwell Award.
RTC apparently produced his/her blog in their spare time.
That tells us a lot about RTC…and a lot about the SMSM.
Godt Nytår!
Great tweet from Jim Spence yesterday. Worth repeating tae start 2015 on a positive:
Onwards and upwards in 2015.
Happy New Year to all, may your 2015 be happy and fulfilling
I comment less on the site than I once did (that in itself a cause for some celebration in all likelihood!) but I follow it all, and never cease to wonder at the light that the contributors shed on the murky corners of the Scottish game, and the moderators’ maintenance of a civilised forum for discussion. This site is a gem.
A happy new year everyone on TSFM!
Danish Pastry says:
January 1, 2015 at 8:52 am
Indeed! Up early for the sell out at Tannadice. Knowing United I’ll be put through the wringer, whatever the outcome!
It’s a strange thing, the relationship between a supporter and their club. We are customers, yes and they supply a product but as anyone who reads this blog would tell you, it’s a far more complex relationship than that. I might switch to Asda from Tesco but I wouldn’t for a moment think of going to Dens or McDiarmid rather than Tannadice on the basis of a price comparison! Our fondly remembered late Chairman Eddie Thompson once said:
“You can change your wife, your house, your car, but you can never change your team”
It’s interesting to see what happens when this relationship is tested. Inverness Thistle and Caledonian merged over 20 years ago but still you can see a debate rumbling on in a Caley website about those who turned their back on going to football after the merger and the end of THEIR Highland League team. I’m in no doubt that a similar reaction would be had by many if United and Dundee for example were to merge.
I found the blog by the Rangers fan posted here just over a day ago very interesting, especially his comments about wishing the Rangers as was no longer existed. The relationship between fan and club does have a breaking point. Once a fan gets out of the habit of going to games, the risk is that the relationship never recovers.
At the risk of stating the obvious, this is why the continuity of the club in the eyes of the supporters is so important. Regardless of the OC/NC debate, for the fans if they played in blue out of Ibrox and called themselves Rangers then…..?
But it’s not just about the name and the stadium. Hearts have recovered in a very strong fashion to date from administration. A key component of that success is a sense of togetherness. At Board level, dressing room and out on the stands a sense that Directors, team and supporters as one are together in willing the club to sustain a powerful recovery.
If there was a sense at Hearts that the Board were really far more interested in what was good for them rather than the club how would that be working right now? Would Tynecastle be virtually full every home game? How would anyone on TSFM react if they thought their club was run by those interested in using the fans money for their benefit rather than that of the club?
So as TRFC look to the new year with this new story about the Three Bears perhaps the biggest challenge, looking across a sea of blue seats at Ibrox, is to consider how damaged the relationship between Club and fans is. They say a picture paints a thousand words. That marquee out on the pitch in front of the away stand? What does that say?
Difficult enough to please fans used to an era of high spend to achieve success in an era of austerity. Far harder still if they think the suffering is for them while the Board are all about their financial reward. Maybe if “real” Rangers people, those perceived to genuinely care about the club, do come to the fore then things may change. But the longer the relationship with the supporters is allowed to sour, the greater the risk of permanent damage. Maybe Eddie was right, you can never change your team. But you can decide that for you, your team is no longer what it used to be, regardless of any OC/NC debate.
@Taysider Hope it’s a grand match. I think it may be viewable on telly from my exile perch.
Another issue for success, I suppose, is the unity among the fans. One of the few funny bits on Only an Excuse poked fun the splintered character of the Ibrox support. Walters waines — spend, spend, spend.
Beginning to look as though the only way an Alternative Rangers, will ever come about is via a legal action forbiddng the current entity from maintaining its phoenix image and pretence. At some point a legal authority must challenge a club that insists that it exited liquidation (by magic?) to continue as exact same debter/bankrupt business, though owing no one.
I came across a post on Rangers Media detailing an interview that Seb Faure gave to the French media recently about his time at Rangers. I found it a most interesting read and have pasted a sample of the Q&As below as I couldn’t get the link to the whole article past the TSFM spam blocker.
The approach of Ally and his management team to training, diet and his “one of the boys” approach to management is laughable in this day and age. To think that £750k per year buys this level of incompetence is shocking. Tea and biscuits at half time FFS!!! Rangers fans deserve better, but there is nothing to suggest that anything will change with McDowell and Co.
Interview translated from French below:
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Everything you do and say is reported on and scrutinised at a club like Rangers. Has the press had an influence on the atmosphere at the club?
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First of all you need to understand that the press and its reporters here are a million times worse than in France! I’m sure I’ve seen the word “crisis” used to describe our club just about every day of the year, even when we win. Taking this into consideration, I do think that it’s had an influence. I must say, not on me personally. To be very honest, I don’t read the papers, apart from when they discuss politics or cover stories from France. But at the level of the club more generally, they have definitely had an influence.
Ten days ago, an old team mate of McCoist’s, John Brown, said to the Sun: “You are a disgrace!” The coach brought us the article and he had an argument with Kenny Miller. After we got beaten by Hearts, apparently Miller had called up a journalist wanting to speak to him to tell him the manager had made some bad decisions, although it turned out that he hadn’t. McCoist got so angry: he threw the paper, he stamped on it, he was shouting and screaming! It’s the first time I’ve ever seen him like that.
Blacky brings the Sun in every morning, and we read it. McCoist reads all the papers every morning in his office at Murray Park, which by the way is enormous (laughs). I think that its mainly at the level of the club staff that the papers have an impact.
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There are rumours that Ian Black also has a Rangers tattoo, is that true?
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No, Blacky’s got a Scotland flag. But that’s the same. I’ve never seen anyone, let alone a footballer, with a French flag tattooed on them. But to me, it’s really great.
Anthony Andreu (Hamilton player) told me that he really appreciated the Scottish patriotism, but that it didn’t mean you couldn’t be interested in other cultures too.
You’ve always got to remain patriotic, but by the same token you’ve always got to keep open to other influences. It’s exactly that. I’m a patriot, I’m proud of being French, but I still accept others, whatever their nationality or colour. And I’m not just saying this for the sake of it: I’m getting married this summer to my childhood sweetheart and she’s black (laughs)!
Earlier you were asking me if Glasgow was divided because of Rangers and Celtic, and it made me think how the city was during the referendum. Glasgow voted Yes as it happened, but it made me laugh because it was at that time that you realised some people just don’t have any ideas of their own. You’re a member of staff at Rangers? Well you must vote No then.
I’m certain that some of the guys must have voted Yes though. In fact Richard Foster got involved in arguments with just about everyone at the club because he refused to hide that he was voting Yes. It was mad really (laughs)!
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Returning to Rangers, I’ve been told that the club gives you an enormous amount of freedom in terms of fitness and diet.
It must make a change from the incredibly rigorous regime you were used to at Lyon?
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To be honest, I don’t mind it too much! No, in all seriousness, you are right. At lunch after training every day, you’ve got all the sauces you want: mayo, barbeque, whatever. They aren’t going to be policing what you eat here. And what’s more, it’s a buffet! As long as you’re playing well and you’re not eating excessive amounts of unhealthy foods, then you can eat what you like. You can even get second helpings.
I know for me, who has a metabolism that’s prone to putting on weight pretty easily, I really watch what I eat and restrict myself, and I feel really fit at the minute, much sharper. But that’s because I am careful and look after myself. If a French coach came over here they would go absolutely mental at what the players eat (laughs)! At Lyon, we were really restricted, and the coaches watched what you put on your plate, monitoring to see if you hadn’t put even just the slightest bit too much. It’s too strict sometimes, even in the youth teams. And its then that you’re more likely to get frustrated, just because you’re banned from so many things.
I remember at Lyon, with (Claude) Puel and (Remi) Garde (coaches), you couldn’t even approach them to talk to them. Here, on the first day of my trial, McCoist spoke to me in French and said “See you tomorrow my pal!”. I said to myself, “What’s going on! This is Ally McCoist, not just anyone! And he’s talking to me!” Puel and Garde would never come and eat with you, but here, McCoist showers with us (laughs)!
Not to mention that he finished a training session by putting himself on the goal line, pulling down his shorts, and making you all hit shots at him because he missed a one on one in the training game…
(Laughs) Me and Bilel fell on the floor with laughter. It was insane. The manager who shows his arse to the whole team is one who really is one of the boys. If the coaches want to work you hard, they do, and the laughter is over. But if you do your job well all year round, then they will basically never shout at you.
In the changing room before the games, there’s laughter and chat, we have a coffee. At half-time, me and Bilel are sometimes amazed because they drink tea! Blacky is the worst for it. He takes tea and some biscuits at half-time (laughs). It’s much different in France, there’s no comparison.
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What do you make of Boxing Day and the Boxing Day week in general?
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For me, it’s all about the week. My parents, my gradparents,and my brother all came for the week during my first season over here. There was ten of them, so I had to get them an apartment in Glasgow. I remember my gran was roasting a turkey when I got up to go to training (laughs). Seriously, it was really weird for me.
In fact, we were due to meet at 9am instead of 10.30am. No one wanted to come to training on that day, but it’s our job. We all arrived at 9am. We had played 4 days previously again Elgin. We did a warm up, piggy-in- middle for 10 minutes, and then that’s us, everyone back home. I got back at 10am!
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Do you have a specific fitness programme that you follow during the Christmas period?
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It’s a personal one. If you want to do fitness, you do fitness. Otherwise, we don’t. At Rangers, the set-up isn’t like Real Madrid. We have a masseur, two physios. You don’t have five masseurs, five phsyios, five fitness coaches!
Taysider,
That’s a helluva thoughtful post for this hour on New Years day!
It’s bang on though, although there is one further dynamic that is important. A big club like Sevco have a certain luxury in that they can temporarily replace auld Heids ( not that one) with ‘tub thumpers’ and then look to switch them back later. (As an aside that the current board have alienated all factions is quite an achievement, hence the 3bears I guess). A smaller club doesn’t have that luxury for the reasons you state. It is for that reason that I will never forgive the Doncaster’s of this world and their view that the big must remain big, despite their, ahem, administrative errors!
Danish Pastry says:
January 1, 2015 at 8:52 am
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Godt Nytår!
Great tweet from Jim Spence yesterday. Worth repeating tae start 2015 on a positive:
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If anything these last 2 years have shown is that Scottish football is about far more than just one club, or two clubs as some would have it. Great to hear the Dundee derby is a sell out and Aberdeen continue to pull in the fans. It’s just a pity most of Jim Spence’s media peers focus on demanding success for one single club, rather than looking around themselves once in a while.
Happy new year bampots. All the best for 2015 and for Scottish fitba.
Still a way to go with our media though. Our state funded broadcaster managed an amazing OG again, with its very one sided view of fitba humour based on the past year.
Have just watched a recording of Only an Excuse, and really was amazed by the rich seam of obvious jokes that were not mined re the ongoing pantomine down Govan way.(One gag about all the Ibrox fan factions being able to fit in the one taxi…..another about Glasgow Monopoly if you land on Ibrox you go straight to jail. That was it, that was as far as the harvest of low hanging fruit went…. all pretty unfunny and missing the target, intentionally?
However funnies on Packy Bonner, Aiden McGeady, Shaun Maloney, Gordon Strachan, Martin O’Neil, Roy Keane, Frank McAvennie, Ronnie Delia, Charlie Nicholas, Chris Commons, a Graham Souness dig at the Tongan Boxer who brandished a Celtic strip at Commonwealth games, etc
Not an old firm (sic) fan, but this wilful partisanship, of not beating on the brat, is doing the Scottish Game and the team in Blue, no favours, in the long run.
Hopes of integration of a Blue team back into Scottish fitba is impossible if the butt of humour can only be uni-directional.
There was even a SLY SPORTS ribbon gag about Messi record breaking breaking all world records………
Scottish fitba needs a broadcaster with a real sense of humour, and more osmosis.
@melbournedee
Amusing and interesting. Any word on which French publication carried the interview?
Can’t help warming to Richard Foster.
Danish Pastry says:
January 1, 2015 at 11:39 am
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The original interview in French can be viewed at:
http://www.hat-trick.fr/sebastien-faure-lame-des-rangers-cest-jimmy-bell
Thanks for that @melbourne. With Dee in your alias are you watching the derby?
Danish Pastry says:
January 1, 2015 at 12:11 pm
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Absolutely! Just about to log onto BEIN Sports.
Hope that Ciftci has a shocker!
TAMJARTMARQUEZ says:
January 1, 2015 at 10:43 am
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Only an Excuse is no longer funny IMO. Generally I don’t mind having fun poked at Celtic but it was pretty obvious last night a general policy of avoidance was in place in terms of mocking things down Ibrox way. Can’t help thinking the BBC simply try too hard these days.
Genuine questions.
How much do TRFC owe RIFC? Shirley its the entire proceeds of the IPO and the September share offer and this is over £20m? Admittedly much of the hare offer money went to pay off at least the Letham and probably the Easdale loans but these loans were either directly or indirectly, via RIFC, to TRFC.
Is not insolvency having liabilities (debts) greater than the assets? We know Edminston House and the Albion were bought out of the IPO so they are much less than the assets. That only really leaves the assets, under the shadow of contingent liability, of Ibrox and MP. I think it was Ahmed quoted soon sfter the asset purchase that said they were worth £50m but are they? Are TRFC and therefore, by virtue of the fact their entire assets and liabilities are tied up in TRFC, already potentially trading while insolvent especially if D&P’s valuation of “distressed assets” was remotely accurate?
Re only an excuse. Is it not, as others have already pointed out, that events Govan way are beyond parody
TAMJARTMARQUEZ says:
January 1, 2015 at 10:43 am
‘….There was even a SLY SPORTS ribbon gag about Messi record breaking breaking all world records……… ‘
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To be absolutely fair , wasn’t there one of those running ‘breaking news’ strips about’ McCoist going..no, staying….no going and staying simultaneously..’?
But you’re right, absolutely right: the fear of upsetting one section of the viewership is as strong in the hearts and minds of our TV producers as it is in those of the print media and the BBC Scotland editorial people.
Not to mention the late Donald Dewar, I read to my disgust in the Herald this morning.
melbournedee says:
January 1, 2015 at 10:18 am
‘..I came across a post on Rangers Media detailing an interview that Seb Faure gave to the French media recently about his time at Rangers. ‘
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Thank you for that post. Extremely interesting. It perhaps affords a little insight into the thinking of progressive, up-to-the-minute managers like ( for example) Deila’s attitude seems to reflect.
Continental coaches and players seem to take it as read that supreme athleticism is required for international success in probably all sports.
John Clark says:
January 1, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Not to mention the Glasgow Monoply edition, where landing on Ibrox means going directly to jail, without passing go, or collecting your £2 million.
One of the distressing aspects of this whole farrago of embarrassments, is the way that a section of the Celtic fan-base, seem hell bent on aping the sense of entitlement and other unattractive aspects of the watp mentality.
Damn, Animal Farm is a great book!
Maybe Scotland will only have finally grown up, when the last apologist for the Old Firm is strangled with the last copy of the Daily Record. (With apologies to Tom Nairn)
Happy New Year everybody, 2015 is going to be exciting, for all sorts of reasons.
melbournedee says:
January 1, 2015 at 10:18 am
‘..I came across a post on Rangers Media detailing an interview that Seb Faure gave to the French media recently about his time at Rangers. ‘
I have been reading the comments on that over the last couple of days and it amazes me how many of them want Foster ‘drummed out’ for voting ‘Yes’.
In fairness though, many are appalled at McCoist’s training including the professionalism of having his players shoot the ball at his bare arse. Having seen the recent efforts on the Soccer AM Crossbar challenge, he was never in much danger
Reluctant as I am to spoil anyone’s Ne’er Day, Doncaster is interviewed on the BBC website. It’ll make make you angry. Very angry.
You have really got to sympathise with the Rangers players on the shooting practice adopted by the former manager turned gardener,having them shoot at an enormous target in training then expecting them to achieve this on a matchday at a vastly smaller target is quite frankly not on.
Happy New Year to one and all
With thanks to FinchleyFlyer for pointing out http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
Neil Doncaster says
Really Neil? And that is probably the least pish statement he makes. Much like Sommers statement pre RIFC AGM this must shirley make Doncaster’s position untenable.
“As far as I can see, no SMSM journalist has won an Orwell Award.”
Iain Bell did I believe.
Assuming it’s true…Disgusted that anyone in a position of authority like this behaved in the manner of A McC as outlined in the Faure interview
All that and on a salary plus expense of £750k +£125k ….I defy any decent Rangers fan or any media pundit to defend this clown now.
The media won’t but thy should validate this story ..and if confirmed …If he has even a shred of integrity left he should walk away now .
I sincerely hope going forward he never darkens our screens with his presence on adio or TV particularly the BBC …if he does I for one will be mad and will be switching off immediately he appears.
James Doleman says:
January 1, 2015 at 3:18 pm
Ian did indeed win the orwell prize, in 1997, he’s also been journalist of the year, and columnist of the year on a couple of occasions. We do have first rate journalists in Scotland, they just don’t as a rule cover football or it seems business!
On the Doncaster interview, he is very clear that as far as the SPFL is concerned, Rangers MkII is the same club as Rangers Mk1
Assuming it’s true…Disgusted that anyone in a position of authority like this behaved in the manner of A McC as outlined in the Faure interview
All that and on a salary plus expense of £750k +£125k ….I defy any decent Rangers fan or any media pundit to defend this clown now.
The media won’t but thy should validate this story ..and if confirmed …If he has even a shred of integrity left he should walk away now .
I sincerely hope going forward he never darkens our lives with his presence on radio or TV particularly the BBC …if he does I for one will be mad and will be switching off immediately he appears.
So Doncaster states outright that current and old Rangers are one and the same. The etheral ‘club’ takes part in ocmpetitions but is ‘owned’ by the legal entity company. So which one owns the players? It has to be the club, as otherwise that would be third party ownership, but the club can’t enter into a legal contract so they can’t employ players. Who faces disciplinary issues? The etheral club can’t be in any position to be charged as it doesn’t have a legal persona but the company doesn’t take part in the competitions so how can it breach any rules? Mr D just dropped a clanger methinks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
Happy New Year and best wishes to all.
@ ScottC has Doncaster just condemned TRFC to a relegation scrap assuming they can finish the season. With insolvency looking more and more likely the points deduction for what Doncaster now insists will be a 2nd insolvency will put TRFC only just above Livi. TRFC were looking for a play off spot with Hearts galloping away but I don’t think hoping to attain the the relegation play-off was the one on the radar 😉
scottc says:
January 1, 2015 at 3:33 pm
7 0 Rate This
So Doncaster states outright that current and old Rangers are one and the same. The etheral ‘club’ takes part in ocmpetitions but is ‘owned’ by the legal entity company. So which one owns the players? It has to be the club, as otherwise that would be third party ownership, but the club can’t enter into a legal contract so they can’t employ players. Who faces disciplinary issues? The etheral club can’t be in any position to be charged as it doesn’t have a legal persona but the company doesn’t take part in the competitions so how can it breach any rules? Mr D just dropped a clanger methinks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
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Preparation for the creation and acceptance of a newer new club.
We knew that Rangers (IL) was a goner the last time Mr Doncaster made a similar proclamation.
History repeating itself?
A Guid New Year to all on here, watchers, readers, posters, lurkers, and even our PR Trolls in their various guises.
And as regards Ally’s “target practice” routine, well he clearly isn’t called the cheekie chappie for nothing!
John Clark says:
January 1, 2015 at 1:31 pm
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Actually most Scottish clubs (at least top league ones) these days have taken continental ideas on board.
At my own wee diddy (though premiership) club we hired a guy known for training athletes in many different sports. He produced not just a training (and self-fitness, diet, etc.) plan but a plan for each player based on their individual physiques and needs.
McCoist is a dinosaur even by the top Scottish standards never mind Continental standards. He could get away with it when his players opponents were part-timers and ordinary full time training gave a big advantage but not now when several teams in the Championship will also be full time or partly full time.
finchleyflyer says:
January 1, 2015 at 2:57 pm
‘Reluctant as I am to spoil anyone’s Ne’er Day, Doncaster is interviewed on the BBC website. It’ll make make you angry. Very angry.’
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I don’t remember seeing that interview at the time?
It neatly grounds my belief that we had and have a corrupt Football Administration which resorted to deepest hypocrisy to pretend that the monumental cheating of SDM was dealt with under the Rules, and that CG’s new club was deceitfully, secretly, shamefully aided beyond measure to be born and treated as if it were the dead club.
Anger is not my principal emotion.
It is contempt for lying, cheating persons who, in my opinion, are as it were as illegitimate as the new creation.
Not a shred of honour and credibility was left to the signatories of the 5WA at the time- and none can be accorded to them now.
And ( at the risk of repeating myself) all the current interest in the 3Bears and Ashley etc must not be allowed to deflect us from the aim of calling the present SFA and SPFL Boards to account for their deception and their sanctioning of deception.
SDM was a baddy, CW was a baddy, CG was a baddy… But the biggest baddies are the hypocritical governing boards.
I wish them no good fortune ‘going forward’ , because I know that their hope is that by ‘going forward’ their lies and deceit, and the most disgraceful chapter in Scottish Football will somehow be forgiven and forgotten.
Not by me, it won’t.
And here was I enjoying my Ne’erday.
And the interviewer didn’t think to ask Doncaster how Rangers ended up in the Third Division…
Late in the day but I forgot to say..
Happy New Year one and all
my post of 4.04. Please delete the first line. I was reading an old Doncaster interview by mistake. But the essence of my post doesn’t need to be changed. They have cringed in fear for so long that now they imply cannot find a way back, dishonourable shower that they are.
scottc says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:20 pm
‘..It’s a new interview John’
——-
Thanks, scottc. Same tissue of deceitful nonsense, though.
I think Dante puts liars in the 8th circle of hell?
scottc says:
January 1, 2015 at 3:33 pm
So Doncaster states outright that current and old Rangers are one and the same.
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Although I have agreed with this position I have a couple of issues with the ND statement.
1) LNS certainly took this view but I’m wholly unclear that the football authorities need to follow it…which leads me to a more important second point…
2) Surely the only body who can rule definitively (like it or not) on the OC/NC issue are the SFA…not the SPFL…you would have thought… ❓
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
Neil Doncaster obviously believes that all football fans are idiots and mental pygmies to boot when he ignores his own rule book and declares:
He uses the decision of LNS to justify his mince but is very selective in what he quotes based on LNS stating in his decision:
However what he conveniently and sleekitly ‘forgets’ is what LNS states next:
The SPFL Rules define a ‘club’ as:
It would appear that the SPFL or at least it’s Chief Executive believes that the ‘context’ otherwise requires when it comes to Rangers that the club can never die no matter what.
It appears that the appearance of the Three Bear resucitation squad needs a still warm corpse to create their miracle and bring back the mourners.
I had always thought we had a bit of a chance with the SPFL for some sense as compared to the SFA which has dug its grave and can’t get out of it.
So do all our various clubs who are members of the SPFL agree with what Doncaster purports to be SPFL Policy?
I simply can’t be annoyed having to explain the utter ludicrousness of a situation whereby a non-legal entity – according to Doncaster – can provide stadium facilities; enter into legally binding contracts with the SPFL or anyone else; put and team on the park and pay for them.
How can a club collect PAYE, NI and VAT when it has no legal persona? I think all the wee motors running around inside Doncaster’s brain must all be ‘clubs’ in disguise.
Btw – a guid New Year to all decent people and especially to all throughout the World who will face yet another shit year ravaged by death, disease and suffering brought about by famine, war, natural disasters and most of all by the greed and uncaring of those who could make a difference.
John Clark
I’m working on something else relating to LNS so do you fancy contacting the SPFL using the following as a basis for your enquiry?
If we now have a owning company and member club set up between RIFC and TRFC then that relationship is presumably documented somewhere in the RIFC/TRFC articles.
That constitution should be published in the interests of transparency so that we all know the current position.
It would follow that if such a document exists then there would be a similar document setting out the relationship between RFC and MIH or RFC and whatever owner company existed that no one knew about.
That should be supplied by Mr Doncaster in support of his same club statement otherwise his statement carries no authority. (Apart from relying on LNS for his same club authority.)
Re Doncaster interview
Aside from the club continuity thing, how many times did he trumpet the deals with Petrofac Training & QTS as being amazing commercial achievements?
And although McLaughlin made him commit to a few awkward questions, he never challenged any of his answers, some of which I’ve had to listen to again because they are either evasive, or plain absurd.
He kicked off the interview by citing examples of the exciting and refreshing achievements of a number of his member clubs, then warned about “talking the game down” conveniently forgetting the harbinger of doom messages he was delivering a couple of years ago. Maybe he was better off staying in his bunker all this time.
Anyway, keep up the great work in 2015 – we’ll need it..
coineanachantaighe says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:04 pm
‘Actually most Scottish clubs (at least top league ones) these days have taken continental ideas on board. ‘
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Yes,I appreciate that,coineanachantaighe.So I was shade puzzled when Deila came under criticism of the kind that appeared early on..
Auldheid says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:39 pm
‘..I’m working on something else relating to LNS so do you fancy contacting the SPFL..’
————
I do indeed, Auldheid.
I will do it by snail mail, rather than in a hurry, though: I’m of a generation that thinks better with a pen its hand rather than sitting at a keyboard. Fewer typos/glitches 🙂 for a start!
Try and get over it, it is the same club,how many times has it to be answered.
It is referred to as Rangers, you in this blog talk about Rangers,fans currently take delight in beating Rangers,fans in pubs talk
About Rangers,Rangers appear in betting slips and coupons as Rangers.Celtic fans will love beating us in February,as the years pass it will be known as Rangers.
What percentage of the world wide football fan base don’t recognize us as Rangers?
To be honest if you don’t, fine, carry on.
There are more important things to worry about.
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
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Rhapsody, if you want the trophies, Pay the creditors back! Its that simple.
Rangers till they died!!!
Rangers Then. Sevco Now. Sports Direct Forever.
parttimearab says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:33 pm
‘.. Surely the only body who can rule definitively (like it or not) on the OC/NC issue are the SFA…not the SPFL…you would have thought… :?:’
———–
Most people would think so. But in the matter of the RFC cheating and dealing with SDM , CW and CG ( and indeed Ashley and no doubt with the 3Bears) our separate and distinct Football Governance people speak as one.There is undoubtedly a wholly unholy alliance of deceitful men at the apex of each of the SFA and SPFL.
Happy New Year to everyone on TSFM.
And Mr Doncaster, why has it taken so long, nearly three years, for you to make any kind of statement regarding the liquidation of Rangers and it’s relationship to their replacement? Just one of the many questions that will undoubtedly go unanswered – and unasked by the MSM!
PS Will you now please contact Ann Budge and tell her she wasted money saving Hearts from liquidation as it was unnecessary!
If there was any credence to what he said, it would have been said almost immediately instead of allowing the debate to continue. Not that his words could ever have stopped it, but it is the kind of thing, in fact his duty, to make such matters, one way or the other, crystal clear at the earliest opportunity. There is something behind his utterance today, perhaps pressure from those now in possession of the facts surrounding the 5 way agreement! Perhaps a sop to Ashley to prevent him taking matters further re dual ownership, by ensuring his Rangers Retail baby sell ‘genuine’ Rangers strips. Who knows? but we can be sure it has nothing to do with right and wrong.
People like Doncaster are just beneath contempt.
rhapsodyinblue,
You are asking us to get over cheating – I have to ask why should we?
Would you be happy if your club was systematically cheated out of titles and trophies?
This is not an anti-Rangers thing. It’s about justice.
We have to ensure justice is done and is seen to be done otherwise we’re watching an entertainment franchise, not a sport.
Re Doncaster’s statements, I have just sent the email below to Hearts. Sadly, unless I receive a satisfactory response, I will be stopping my payments to FoH.
I am a contributor to Foundation of Hearts
I am delighted with the way things are progressing under the new regime at Hearts.
However, I have a major concern about the governance of Scottish football. In the interview linked to below (Qs and As from which are copied below) Neil Doncaster of the SPFL says that the “Rangers” currently competing with Hearts for promotion to the premier league are the same club as Rangers, which went into liquidation in 2012. This is also stated on the SPFL website which lists the “Rangers” currently playing in the same league as Hearts as having been formed in 1872.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
I am a solicitor and my understanding of Scots law is that a club, once incorporated, does not have a distinct, separate persona from the company. Indeed, the reason why I signed up to Foundation of Hearts was to prevent the club being liquidated, and our proud history coming to an end.
I’d appreciate it if someone from Hearts FC could let me know Hearts FC’s views on Mr Doncaster’s statements. Specifically, do Hearts consider the current “Rangers” to be the same Rangers as the Rangers that entered liquidation in 2012?
To suggest that Rangers history continues intact implies to me that a football club can spend more than it earns, enter liquidation, and start again (with its history and trophy record intact) time and time again, which surely can’t be right. It also insulting to supporters of clubs which live within their means. I am aware that there is already a growing feeling of discontent among supporters of all clubs about this, and the statements that the BBC are attributing to Mr Doncaster are likely to cause widespread anger.
I look forward to hearing from you
Yours sincerely
So the official take from the SPFL is that Rangers Football Club continues, it’s the same club?
“Yes, it’s the same club, absolutely.”
People have extreme views on this, so what’s the difference between a club and a company?
“The member club is the entity that participates in our league and we have 42 member clubs.
“Those clubs may be owned by a company, sometimes it’s a Private Limited Company, sometimes it’s a PLC, but ultimately, the company is a legal entity in its own right, which owns a member club that participates in the league.”
RIB, in my bookies there was a sign up advertising Santa’s Specials, did that mean he actually made up the list and that there really is a Santa…..? Answers to Santa’s Grotto, 6th Floor, Hampden . I canny take much more of this……..
So taking the LNS Decision which Doncaster obviously totally accepts and also taking the SPFL Rule Book which he presumably accepts – although a rewrite will probably be underway as I type – what exactly do we have?
We have an SPFL whose member ‘clubs’ – according to Doncaster – can’t enter into any contract even with the SPFL in their own right as they ain’t a legal entity. They can’t even be disciplined for anything they do or don’t do. In fact they can’t do anything.
So how does the SPFL control these ‘clubs’? Oh I forgot it’s in the SPFL Rule Book: A ‘club’ includes its owner and operator which together make-up a kind of indissoluble Unholy Trinity which together form a legal entity which can only be dissolved through a legal process.
Most need to unravel the central mystery of the Most Holy Trinity to see the light which can be hard and usually requires a difficult leap of Faith involving questions of verlasting life even beyond mortal death.
But Doncaster has it easy: All he needs to do is open his mind to truth and light and put deceit and lies behind hims and turn to his own Rule Book.
Then all will be revealed: There is no life after death for an Unholy Trinity.
RIB, following Doncaster’s statement, “Rangers” should still be in the top division. You must be furious. You’d think some bright spark would have taken legal action to prevent a totally illegal demotion.
theoldshed @ 5:22pm
Perhaps you could also ask someone from Hearts FC if at any time during the many meetings that Ann Budge and others must have had with the SPL/SPFL, whether Mr Doncaster or any of his colleagues advised Hearts FC that liquidation would, in fact, be no barrier to their continued existence and, if it was the easiest route to getting out of their financial difficulties, then just to go ahead with it.
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
What percentage of the world wide football fan base don’t recognize us as Rangers?
To be honest if you don’t, fine, carry on.
There are more important things to worry about.
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If I was a Rangers supporter I might agree with you. However I think I would be in that growing number which doesn’t believe it’s the same club anymore.
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
What percentage of the world wide football fan base don’t recognize us as Rangers?
===================================
What percentage of the world wide football fan base even give a damn?
Delusions of grandeur are a particularly sad aspect of the malaise that seems to afflict a large part of the Ibrox support. Along with that poisonous sense of entitlement of course.
SPFL Rule Book states:
But the definition of a club used by Doncaster states it isn’t a legal entity and as such it can’t pay PAYE & NI or any other payments either.
Just as well the SPFL Rule Book states that the term ‘club’ also includes its operating company and owner and that means that all member clubs of the SPFL are legal entities.
Is someone going to let Mr Doncaster know – and will we get a retraction of his absolute clanger or bare-faced lie?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30646033
When is an interview not an interview?
When the questions are loaded and predefined and responses equally worked out in advance, it is a very poor excuse for journalism.
The timing of this piece could not be any more obvious had they started by stating:
“Now that some real Rangers men are looking to win control of the club, how can we ensure they succeed by rallying the fans?”
For me, it is Rangers that play at Ibrox, it is Rangers that play in The Red, White and Blue, it is Rangers that carry the traditions of the past that some cling onto.
It is not however, The Rangers that went into and are still in the process of Liquidation, no matter how many times you play around with the name.
Good luck to the Rangers fans who believe they are following the same team, I have no problem with that.
Just don’t forget to pick up your baggage……..
From the current SPFL AoA’s
“Member means a person who or which is the holder of a Share”
“A ‘person’ includes a natural person, corporate or unincorporated body (whether or not having separate legal personality)…”
So if it is the same “member club”, which person, corporate or uncorporated body creates the continuity?
The funny thing is that the member must also be the owner and operator of a Club.
So it is the same owner and operator?
Re Neil Doncaster. A current grade 1 official told me that he is a very arrogant man.
As for the interview in question I think it’s appalling that Chris McLaughlin did not challenge him to explain why a club and company which was not separate at the point of liquidation can still have the same status. However I don’t really care too much because if the league regards them as the same, then the league can’t erase the indelible stain of the money stolen from the taxpayer.
SPFL Rule Book states:
But the Boss of the SPFL says clubs are non-legal entities so that means they can’t provide a Contract of Service for any players. Obviously they can’t pay them either.
Here’s me thinking the SPFL was a league with professional players but it seems all the players actually have amateur status.
However I hope someone is paying insurance for players and other staff – it can’t be the club because it has no money and can’t sign the insurance proposal. And what about public liability duty towards the paying customers who pays the insurance companies for that?
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
……………….
If only my friend….
Tell me what was the name of the holding company that was liquidated?
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
Here is a wee clue…
http://www.murray-international.co.uk/pdfs/rangers_reports.pdf · PDF file
rhapsodyinblue says:
January 1, 2015 at 4:51 pm
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Same club?
Then 276 creditors-including the Ambulance Service and the UK tax payer would love to hear from this club you mention…
The more I look at the Doncaster Clanger the more I think about FFP Regulations. How can you possibly apply these to the etheral wraiths with no legal entity which the SPFL Boss presides over.
Is this why the authorities have been unable to implement FFP in Scotland? Because to do so they would have to accept that clubs are legal enities because they are indissoluble from their owners and operating companies?
The SPFL Rule Book already makes that clear but the Chief Executive has become a Judas Goat and denied his own Rule Book.
Things must be getting very desperate methinks.
I wonder how long it will take BDO to contact Mr Doncaster and request that he confirms his position and that of his employer, in writing, to them?
Meanwhile, over in the SPFL Bunker……..
“Look, I’m getting very worried about our reputation as custodians of the game. The fans don’t like us and even Barry Hearn thinks we’re Muppetts. We need to do something. C’mon, think outside the box. No idea too stupid, let’s hear it.”
“Well Boss, you could always give a New Years Day interview to the BBC and insult everyones intelligence.”
“I like your thinking. Let’s give a go.”
I of course have never met Mr Doncaster, he may be a nice chap, however from what I have seen on TV and read in the media he strikes me as one of those unprincipled windbags I have come across in life who probably has a raft of people below him wondering how he ever managed to get promoted to five levels above his degree of competency.
John Clark
Cheers and snail mail is best. Perhaps recorded delivery?
Ecobhoy
Not at PC but did TORs of LNS Commission ask him to specifically rule on the same club matter or did it come about in terms of justifying which entity should face the consequences of his judgement?
Ecobhoy 6.34
The key issue is why the SFA/SPFL do not have an equivalent of Article 12 of UEFA FFP which is designed to protect the integrity of UEFA competition.
That PLUS the financial control requirement of FFP to break even, tailored to the Scottish game is an absolute must in terms of removing spiv space which the spivs at Hampden use to suit their purpose.
Doncaster, Regan and Ogilvie simply cannot be allowed to hold their current positions.
Oh Happy New Year everybody 🙂