From the TSFM Manifesto š
A spectre is haunting Scottish Football ā the spectre of Sporting Integrity. All the powers of the old firms have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Billy and Dan, Blazer and Cassock, Record and Sun, Balance Sheet and P&L.
Where is the football fan in opposition to these that has not been decried as a “sporting integrity bampot” by his opponents in power?Two things result from this fact:
I. Sporting Integrity is already widely acknowledged to be itself a power for good.
II. It is high time that Lovers of Sport should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Sporting Integrity with a manifesto of fair play.
To this end, Lovers of Sport of various partisanship have assembled on TSFM and sketched their manifesto, to be published on tsfm.scot.
Those who love sport though are challenged not just by the taunts of the monosyllabic automatons in the MSM, but by the owners of our football clubs who have displayed an almost total disregard to our wish to have a fair competition played out in the spirit of friendly rivalry. In fact the clubs, who speak those fine words, are not nearly as outraged as we are by the damage done to the integrity of the sport in the past few years .
In fact the term Sporting Integrity has become, since the latter stages of the Rangers era, a term ofĀ abuse; a mocking soubriquet attached to those who want sport to be just that – sport.
Sporting integrity now lives in the same media pigeon-hole as words like Islam, left-wing, militant, Muslim – and a host of others; words which are threats to the established order now set up as in-jokes, in order to reduce the effectiveness of the idea.
In fact, a new terminology has evolved in the reporting of football by both club officials and The Succulent Lamb Chapel alike;
“.. Sporting Integrity but …”.
For example
“We all want sporting integrity, but finance is more important”
Says who exactly?
Stated in such a matter of fact way that the obvious question is headed off at the pass, it is sometimes difficult to re-frame the discussion – perhaps because crayon is so hard to erase?
This is the backdrop to The Scottish Football Monitor and the world in which we live. Often the levels of scrutiny employed by our contributors are far in excess of any scrutiny employed by the MSM. Indeed our ideas and theories are regularly plagiarised by those very same lazy journalists who lurk here, and cherry-pick material to suit their own agendas; regularly claiming exclusives for stories that TSFM and RTC before us had placed in the public domain weeks earlier.
This was going to lead into a discourse about the love of money versus the love of sport – of how the sacred cows of acquisitiveness, gate- retention and turnstile spinning is far more important to the heads of our football clubs (the Billys, Dans and Blazers of the intro) than maintaining the traditions of our sport.
However events of Friday 14th November have given me cause to leave that for another day. The biggest squirrel of all in this sorry saga has always been the sleight of hand employed instil a siege mentality in the Rangers fans. The press have time and again assisted people (with no love of football in general or Rangers in particular) to enrich themselves – legally or otherwise – and feed on the loyalty of Rangers fans.
A matter for Rangers fans may also be the identity of some of those who had their trust, butĀ who also assisted the Whytes and Greens by their public statements of support.
Our contention has been that rules have been bent twisted or broken to accommodate those people, the real enemies of the Rangers fans – and fans everywhere.
Through our collective research and group-analysis of events, we have also wondered out loud about the legality of many aspects of the operating style of some of the main playersĀ in the affair. That suspicion has been shared most notably by Mark Daly and Alex Thompson, but crucially now appears to be shared by Law Enforcement.
I confess I am fed up with the self-styled “bampot” epithet. For the avoidance of doubt, the “bampots” in this affair are those who have greater resources than us, and access to the truth, but who have lacked either the will orĀ theĀ courage or the imagination to follow it through.
We are anything but bampots. Rather, weĀ have demonstrated that the wisdom of the crowd is more effective by far than any remnants of wisdom in the press.
I have no doubt that the police investigation into this matter is proceeding in spite of great opposition in the MSM and the Scottish Football Authorities – all of whom conspired to expose Rangers to the custodianship of those for whom football is a foreign language.
I have no doubt that the constant exposition of wrong-doing on this blog, in particular the questions we have constantly raised, and anomalies we have pointed out, has assisted and enabled the law enforcement agencies in this process.
If we are to be consistent in this, our enabling of the authorities, we MUST show restraint at all times as this process is followed through. People who are charged with a crime deserve to be given a fair trial in the absence of rumour or innuendo. We must also, if we are to continue as the spectre which haunts the avaricious – and the real bampots – be seen to be better than they, and give them no cause to accuse us of irresponsibility.
This affair has now evolved way beyond one club gaining unfair advantage over others. For all the understandable Schadenfreude of many among us, the real enemy is not Rangers, it is about those who enabled and continue to enable the farce at Ibrox.
This is now about systematic cheating at the heart of the Scottish game (in the name of cash and in spite of lip service to sporting integrity), and how the greed of a bunch of ethically challenged officials allowed another group of ethically challenged businessmenĀ free rein to enrich themselves at the expense of the fans.
Whether laws were broken or not, theĀ players at Rangers have come and gone and are variables, but the malignant constant at the SFA and SPFL are still there. Last night, even after the news that four men had been arrested in connection with the takeover at Ibrox in 2011, they were gathered together at Celtic Park with their Irish counterparts, tucking into succulent lamb (perhaps) and fine wines, doing someĀ back slapping, makingĀ jokes about the vulgarities of their fans, bragging about the ST money they have banked.
The revolution won’t be over until they are gone, and if they remain, it is Scottish Football that will be over.
BDO having an AGM on 9 Dec
More than can be said of some š
mtp
If, like me, you are in need of a wee reminder of why Collyer Bristow has had to fork out Ā£24 million to the football club in liquidation, this link is instructive:
http://www.thelawyer.com/full-extent-of-rangers-fc-claims-against-collyer-bristow-laid-bare/1012303.article
—
As a footnote, if anyone from a company had got into a wee spot of bother in recent days and was hoping for lots of support from the corporates, it would probably dampen the mood for it to emerge that your alleged actions had allegedly cost your employer an alleged Ā£24 million. Ouch.
From the above, a fine contender for understatement of the century:
āthings were not as they had seemedā
—
The total liabilities as shown on the BDO report as Ā£168M (includes the full amount of the Big Tax Case), with Ā£24M available for distribution. That would work out at around a 14p in the Ā£ dividend payment to creditors.
Should HMRC lose the EBT appeal, then the dividend to creditors could go as high as 25p in the Ā£, which isn’t as desperate as it might have been.
Can someone explain something, now that BDO has 24 Million (less sundries) burning a hole in it’s pocket, when do they start paying back creditors?
HMRC are owed a lot of Tax and Social Insurance (is it 9 to 15 Million?) before any EBT appeal case is taken into account.
Perhaps BDO could take over Ibrox?
The Company in Liquidation performing better than the `going concern` š
& not nearly as expensive in `management` fees
mtp
More than an hour after the BDO report was picked up on TSFM, no-one in the MSM appears to have picked up on it.
Are they all twiddling their thumbs, or maybe standing outside Glasgow Sheriff Court? :slamb:
cavansam says: November 17, 2014 at 12:03 pm
===================
It says in the report that an interim dividend will be paid early in 2015.
The Collyer Bristow settlement is a stunning result for BDO and the creditors.
The original “hastily assembled” argument put forward by D&P seemed to me to be entirely spurious: the company was deprived of Ā£25m largesse from DK and co….yeah right.
One can only conjecture what the “considerable reframing” of the argument by BDO amounted to!
CB must have been desperate to stay out of court and have done well to persuade their insurers to cough up.
Something I am not getting hereā¦how can the court decide that CB payable damages amount to GBP 24 million? From my reading this seems to be based on the assertion that if Craigy hadnāt completed the purchase from David Murray then Paul Murray was going to magic up somehow GBP 25 million?
Now surely given what we know of how effective the āreal Rangers Menā types have been at actually raising any money at all how can this speculation on what Paul Murray may or may not have achieved be the basis for the amount of the claim?
David Murray would still have been the majority shareholder if the Wave Tower deal had never happened and who can say what may have transpiredā¦
Or am I completely missing something, anything, everything?
peterjung says: November 17, 2014 at 12:12 pm
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The claim was settled out of court, so the court didn’t decide.
The article posted earlier by Esteban gave the basis of the claim.
I’d guess that BDO would claim that the Ticketus arrangement took future income out the club and contributed to its demise.
Ticketus remain a creditor of the Oldco to the extent of Ā£27M, so will receive a portion of their money back as a dividend from BDO.
Castofthousands says:
November 17, 2014 at 10:58 am
the taxman cometh says:
November 17, 2014 at 8:42 am
āwhat time are they appearing in court?ā
āāāāāāāāāāā
Presuming I gain access to the court I will only be able to post who was present, the demeanor of the accused and the nature of the charges.
===============================
You can’t make any reference to their demeanor as to do so might convey an impression of guilt or even innocence.
Reports of trials, including jury trials, don’t make reference to demeanor until the verdict is announced.
Although the trial isn’t technically over until sentence is passed – which might be delayed for a social enquiry background report – the judge is held to be impartial and above being influenced by reports stating: ‘After Bloggs was found guilty he collapsed in the dock’. Or: ‘After Bloggs was found Not Guilty he punched the air and shouted GIRFUY’.
What can be used is the identity of the accused, and his plea to the charge/s. There may be a discussion about Bail and any conditions to be imposed.
The biggest problem you’ll have – as a non-journo – is getting the name of the agents representing the accused and actually getting access to the charge/s presented. You really have to have that exactly as it is on the charge sheet and you cannot just surmise what it is or just give a bit of it that you hear or pick-up.
I doubt if you will get to see a charge sheet – which also has the accused’s address on it – the court just isn’t designed for that or at least didn’t use to be.
Your port of call for info is the Sheriff Clerks’ Office (Criminal) and ask to view the charge sheet. A Monday is probably the worst time to attempt this because of the extra weekend custodies but it will be interesting to hear how you get on.
Of course perhaps everything is computerised these days š
However if the accused are dealt with under petition you’ll get zilch. You won’t see them and they’ll appear in private.
Still the experience will be worthwhile but a word of good advice is that unless you are certain that everything you post is 100% accurate and 100% derived from the court records/proceedings then don’t post anything. It’s not a game and even experienced journos with good reputations sometimes slip-up.
That’s when the journo ends-up in the dock – it can be a lonely place š
This is fun!
Type in your football team of choice. š
https://yougov.co.uk/opi/profiler#/
The Collyer Bristow settlement with BDO was discussed on TSFM in July – initiated by a cut and paste from a Rangers fans site, I think? I can’t recall having seen hard evidence for it then. Official now, with what looks like a well negotiated settlement by the liquidator. Seems risible to me but I’d wager that some quarters will see this, along with today’s court appearances, as adding weight to the David Murray ‘duped’ defence.
The sum owing to HMRC, net of the big tax case (BTC, as they themselves term it), seems to be Ā£94m minus Ā£72m, that is, Ā£22m, looking through my untutored eyes. This represents a large sum of money owing, effectively, to the ordinary working people of this country. Expect no mention of this from the “EBTs were legal” types. I anticipate being told, instead, that their “club” should have received the Ā£975 Jelavic payment detailed elsewhere in the same document. They really are capable of this kind of megaspin, at least among themselves.
easyJambo says:
November 17, 2014 at 12:05 pm
More than an hour after the BDO report was picked up on TSFM, no-one in the MSM appears to have picked up on it.
===============================================
I think in view of what’s happening in court today that the media lawyers will need to be careful in what they report from BDO in case it affects the accused and whether it does or not and the extent involved might only become clear when the detailed charges are available.
But that might not be today so it becomes a poser and will be interesting to see if different media outlets take different lines and how far they push things.
If you go into twitter, type BDO and Rangers into the search box you will see the Govan club fans reaction to the Ā£24m and where the blame firmly lies
Re Ally wanting his team “Back where they belong”….. Does he really mean in the windae at Burton’s menswear? Come on Burtons, do the decent thing… š š
blu says: November 17, 2014 at 12:31 pm
==================
I recall the same. Here is the link to the FF article.
http://www.followfollow.com/news/tmnw/rangers_creditors_win_24m_settlement_from_law_firm_836024/index.shtml
As you say, there was no independent confirmation at the time, and doubts about the settlement grew after further court action in the CB case(s) later in the summer.
At least the BDO report now gives us some clarity.
Could someone eventually offer Ā£25,000,001.00p to take over oldco?
Get back the family silver over time?
and restart?
š
mtp
easyJambo says:
The claim was settled out of court, so the court didnāt decide.
_________________________________________________________________
Thanks EJ…that is what I was missing!
None the wiser mind you on how the amount was arrived at…..very interesting….
It seems that Police Scotland is being kept busy by all things Rangers at the moment.
Remember the scuffles at Livingston? 14 now arrested.
http://m.stv.tv/news/east-central/299915-fourteen-men-arrested-after-brawl-at-livingston-rangers-match/
Thirdmanrunning says:
November 17, 2014 at 10:01 am
PS: I wasnāt suggesting Phil was being over-sensitive
========================================================
You commented on a discussion between myself and Goosy Goosy by stating:
I tend to take posts at face-value and accept that you didn’t say that Phil was over-sensitive and only that he had created over-sensitivity on TSFM.
I don’t think that Phil could be labelled over-sensitive and I most certainly ain’t. But, like Phil, I think we all have to be very sensitive when dealing with certain current legal issues and far far better to be over rather than under sensitive.
That way no one gets into trouble, TSFM posters are seen to be acting responsibly and the interests of Justice are served.
easyJambo says:
November 17, 2014 at 1:15 pm
It seems that Police Scotland is being kept busy by all things Rangers at the moment. Remember the scuffles at Livingston? 14 now arrested.
http://m.stv.tv/news/east-central/299915-fourteen-men-arrested-after-brawl-at-livingston-rangers-match/
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Interesting looking at the age profile of those to be reported to the PF viz: Among them was two 14-year-olds, three 15-year-olds, three 16-year-olds, three 17-year-olds, an 18-year-old, a 19-year-old and a 49-year-old.
If they are all Ibrox ST Holders or regulars how indicative is their age of the current fan profile of Rangers supporters? I know it certainly has changed in the last few years.
Between youth prices and pensioner discounts I wonder what they are actually taking in from ST sales.
And if they are found guilty can the club afford the hit wrt attendance figures by banning them?
I don’t often get the chance to say nice things about accountants connected to this story, so:
BDO are doing a first rate job, both for the creditors, and for the wider public interest.
Compare and contrast….. š
Edit
I don’t begrudge Regan his telegraph moment. he has done some good things, and, over the coming weeks and months its unlikely the coverage will be quite so sympathetic
Given the usually impenetrable nature of most of the legal,quasi-legal and other documentation that we have grown accustomed to wading through in our attempts to make some kind of sense of this saga, can I congratulate BDO on giving a clear and succinct report. Surely it can’ t be that difficult to communicate in clear English. Unless, of course, obfuscation is the primary intent of the communication in the first place.
From the BDO report, more bad news, potentially, for D&P and the IPA
“4. The Former Joint Administrators
The Joint Liquidators have requested, from the former Joint Administrators, detailed
explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by them during the
Administration. There remains on-going correspondence in this regard.
Once full explanations have been obtained, the Joint Liquidators will consult with their legal agents and the Committee regarding what further action, if any, will be required in relation to the matter.
”
Won’t comment further for obvious reasons
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/four-men-in-court-over-rangers-sale-1-3607411
If nothing else, the Rangers story has demonstrated, as if it needed demonstrating, that while there may be a requirement for Trades Unions for the Accounting & Insolvency professions, there is an undeniable requirement for a genuinely independent, robust regulators.
The pretence that ICAS, ICAEW, IPA etc can fulfil both roles needs to end.
It’s even popping-up in the Manchester Evening News
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/duff–phelps-partner-appear-8121599
scapaflow says:
November 17, 2014 at 1:46 pm
7 0 Rate This
From the BDO report, more bad news, potentially, for D&P and the IPA
ā4. The Former Joint Administrators
The Joint Liquidators have requested, from the former Joint Administrators, detailed
explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by them during the
Administration. There remains on-going correspondence in this regard.
Once full explanations have been obtained, the Joint Liquidators will consult with their legal agents and the Committee regarding what further action, if any, will be required in relation to the matter.
ā
Wonāt comment further for obvious reasons
……………………….
Iirc, the more learned members of this blog/community, raised ‘concerns’ about the tie in between the Rangers Charity Fondation and the PLC and monies from the charity was being used/gifted/diverted from the Charity to the PLC.
My question is
– would it be likely that the ‘issue’ of using/diverting/gifting money from a Charity to prop up a PLC would form part of the Police investigation or any other potential for prosecutions relating to using Charity money for working capital for a (friendly) PLC ??
ecobhoy says:
November 17, 2014 at 1:19 pm
4 2 Rate This
—————————–
Yes I agree – care and attention is required.
And I’m certain I can quote the following from BDO… š
“The Joint Liquidators have requested, from the former Joint Administrators, detailed
explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by them during the
Administration. There remains on-going correspondence in this regard.”
Aspects of the strategy… I seem to remember on RTC (and here) great confusion and debate about this very point.
From ecobhoy’s MEN link, quoting Marty Dauer of D&P:
Is that date wrong?
An AGM
Proper Accounts
Genuine Consultation via Commitee
Clear `Shareholder` Reports
Going Concern
No need for multiple independent inquiries
No reports to the Polis
No reports to the SFO
No multiple disrepute charges
No multiple directors in disgrace, sacked or legged it
Yes – Compared to some – BDO know how to run a Company properly š
Even if it is in liquidation process
mtp
Thanks to Woodstein and Eco for trying to answer my question about the person whose complaint about the allegedly fraudulent purchase prompted the investigation that led to the arrest of the four.
The MSM report posted above includes this – ‘The investigation into alleged criminality follows a preliminary examination of information passed to police by administrators.’ Does this mean that Clark, Whitehouse and Grier themselves gave police the information that led to their arrest? They were the administrators, after all.
I assume they wouldn’t have done this off their own back, so would that information have been requested by police as a result of a complaint by the unknown person? (or unsub, as they say on Criminal Minds!)
Sorry to keep on about this, but I’m finding it hard to understand who would have kicked this investigation off.
If it has been a long day waiting for word of the Ibrox 4, just think what it must be like for those in the cells. A sobering experience, which could concentrate a few minds.
It seems that Keef is comfortable in showing the original D&P press conference.
keith jackson ā@tedermeatballs Ā· 1h1 hour ago
15m and 55s into D&P first Ibrox press conference I asked a question which might finally now be properly answered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fACV_unAFRg
According to DR
`The four are appearing in private on petition from custody before Sheriff Samuel Cathcart. Earlier today some Rangers fans had separately made enquiries at the front desk of the court hoping to sit on the public benches only to be told the case, in court three, was being held in private.`
mtp
ecobhoy says:
November 17, 2014 at 12:27 pm
“I doubt if you will get to see a charge sheet ā which also has the accusedās address on it ā the court just isnāt designed for that or at least didnāt use to be.”
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The charges were heard in a closed session so I wasn’t able to witness proceedings.
The reception desk were as helpful as they could be but the information available was very limited. Closed sessions are adopted when more serious charges are under consideration apparently.
I was given a phone number to inquire as to whether the accused had been bailed or not and I’m just off the phone to the Sheriff Court and am advised that bail has been granted.
I asked if a charge sheet would be publicly available but was answered in the negative. Members of the press may gain access to some of these details but they are not available to members of the public apparently.
The decision to hold closed proceedings was of the Procurator Fiscal’s office I was advised.
When I inquired after the case this afternoon I barely had the first syllable of the first defendant’s name across my lips when the closed session information was forthcoming. I got the impression that either someone had asked the same question very recently or that the case was sufficiently high profile for it to have notoriety.
There was no information provided concerning the schedule for a full hearing.
I think that’s the crux for bear world just now (at least for the BDO bit) in so far as they seem to have no concept where the original Ā£24m went. They seem to think whyte pocketed it when in fact he was the only one who didn’t! Whether the transaction order was incorrect or not at the original purchase fundamentally ticketus chucked in Ā£24m hence it being listed as a creditor. These funds repaid the LTSB debt and the remainder paid for ongoing losses. If nothing else there is actually a certain irony that the apparent ‘damages’ come to almost the exact same figure as the original investment which of course ticketus will only get 20 odd p in the pound for.
However I gather the chapter for this story called Irony is already full to bursting!
Nawlite says
November 17. 2014 @ 3.35 pm
Nawlite, if you go back to the highfibre/Smugas discussion the other day, you will see references to a letter sent by Grant Thornton to the administrators.
Apparently GT had some misgivings re the season ticket deal.
It is possible that they received no satisfactory answer, and as highfibre indicated, they had no option but to report the matter, to SOCA, who would then assess the information an forward it to the agency/ police who had responsibility for the locus.
It is my GUESS that it was sent to the Crown Office, for action.
May be wrong, but I is a possibility.
easyJambo says:
November 17, 2014 at 11:39 am
Tincks says: November 17, 2014 at 11:37 am
==================
BDO will be working on behalf of the creditors, so will be on the side of MIH.
———————
Thanks EJ – little by little the whole tangled web becomes clearer to this simple soul
Castofthousands says:
November 17, 2014 at 3:44 pm
===============================================
My betting has always been on the case being handled under the Solemn Procedure which means at the First Commital (Today) the accused doesn’t actually plead to any charges but makes ‘No plea or declaration’.
They can be released on bail at that point but more often they come back a week later to the Second Commital.
Often they can be bailed at that point but IIRC they can also be fully committed at that point. This essentially means them being dubbed-up until the court case.
I would think if they ain’t released today they will be released next week.
The only way for info to be released from this point is either through the PF which is usually very basic and again IIRC doesn’t require to have the charge details revealed or through the accused’s solicitor.
Solicitors for your normal run of the mill criminal are usually quite free to release info and they get a wee advert mention. But lawyers representing more well-heeled/influential clients tend to be much more circumspect.
And if you ain’t a recognised journo you’ll get nothing except politeness from court staff. They know itsa serious business. So we’ll have to wait and get and idea of what went down today from the freelance agency which covers the court.
Court report at:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/four-men-appear-court-over-4643224
They have all been bailed – the usual very sparse report from an First Committal Hearing.
BBC Court story:
Good Afternoon
Watching news about whistleblowers not being happy about FIFA report.
Pity that there appears to be nobody with the same moral fibre within the SFA/SPFL.
The FBI meanwhile continue their investigations.
Come on Craigie boy come home and spill the beans
easyJambo says:
November 17, 2014 at 3:40 pm
It seems that Keef is comfortable in showing the original D&P press conference.
================================================
His defence will obviously be: ‘I’m a sports reporter I don’t know anything about these things’.
Just looking at that and wondering whether Keefie taught that line to McCoist or vice versa š
Hoopy 7 says:
November 17, 2014 at 4:58 pm
Come on Craigie boy come home and spill the beans
==================================================
And don’t forget the rest of the tapes š
Btw can I be the court reporter in the film wee man ā
When deleting posts, a pm explaining why would be greatly appreciated
ecobhoy says: November 17, 2014 at 4:44 pm
—————–
More detail on the charges
They were all charged with a fraudulent scheme.
Mr Withey, from Woking, also faces a charge under the Companies Act 2003.
Mr Whitehouse, from Wilmslow, and Mr Clark, from Esher, each face two charges of attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Mr Grier, from Wokingham, is also alleged to have attempted to pervert the course of justice.
Worth remembering that the Ā£24 million received by BDO was not money Rangers ever had .
It was not money that would ever have been available to the club .
On that basis , it would have made no difference to ability to avoid liquidation
Further to barca’s post above. Another way to look at it is that the Ā£24m insurance claim clears the ticketus debt (albeit I take barca’s point that the claim wasn’t made by RFCold but technically it could have been). In the absence of the whyte deal you can similarly argue that of the subsequent 20 odd million of HMRC debt (blessed with the hindsight that the BTC would fail) 13m was craigy mucking about with PAYE and VAT.
What does this leave us? Is it no liquidation? Erm no actually. It leaves, save the odd face painter and ambulance or 2, the wee tax case debt. Was it paid? No. Had RFCold been in any way helpful in establishing this debt? No. Result? Liquidation, and entirely of their own making.
Well until the holding company fairy turned up at least.
As the 4 suspects have now been released on bail is there any mechanism in place to stop them congregating and comparing notes as it were? Honest question.
On the contempt rules, they are even more restrictive during a pre-trial hearing. You can report it happened and date of any future hearing and that’s it.
Carfins Finest says: November 17, 2014 at 5:34 pm
As the 4 suspects have now been released on bail is there any mechanism in place to stop them congregating and comparing notes as it were? Honest question.
======================
I would fully expect them to get together to discuss their cases.
The more problematic issue may be what they might have said in individual interviews since their arrest, particularly if their stories don’t match up.
Is it any wonder that offshore spivs can roll into Ibrox and strip the place with the likes of a tyler like McMurdo guarding the Famous Blue Gates.
With apologies to Leonard Cohen as Ibrox sure ain’t Manhattan or Berlin let me reveal the Ibrox Land Grabbers’ Plan: ‘First they take the money and then they take the rest’.
The crazy Celtic State Aid allegations were hatched by a small bunch of fantasists on McMurdo’s Blog and continually encouraged by him.
But it was always destined to failure because it was based on a fantasy like so much that emanates from Ibrox.
But did they listen? Nope! As per usual they shut their minds to reason and headed for their rightful place and tbf the train has almost reached its final destination.
That’s great news for ordinary Bears who have discarded the baggage and just want to watch decent football and support a team they can be proud of.
So here’s what McMurdo dreams of:
Well the next stage of the journey will be even more hilarious and I look forward to it. Still I agree with McMurdo on one thing which is few Bears were surprised by the verdict.
Indeed thousands of them have been stunned into shocked silence as they had been continually fed tripe by the McMurdo land dunces that Celtic were doomed.
It was all a cynical PR ploy IMO to divert Bears from the task of trying to save their club and remove it from the clutches of those who have all but destroyed it.
I think it’s fitting to now close the final chapter on Celtic’s successful and legitimate land purchases – as endorsed by the EC who are the supreme authority on State Aid matters.
So I’ll take another quote from McMurdo which really does sum up the dismal failure of their misguided State Aid Campaign.
scapaflow says:
If nothing else, the Rangers story has demonstrated, as if it needed demonstrating, that while there may be a requirement for Trades Unions for the Accounting & Insolvency professions, there is an undeniable requirement for a genuinely independent, robust regulators.
The pretence that ICAS, ICAEW, IPA etc can fulfil both roles needs to end.
==========================================================
Scapa…whilst I fully agree that the UK voluntary basis of self-regulation does not always work, statutory regulation, as illustrated by the Securities Exchange Commission in the US is often found to just as sadly lacking.
Sadly, I cannot offer any suggestions I think would work.
We have been removing an increasing number of posts today. We don’t have time to explain each and every removal, so please cut us some slack. I am sure most should be aware why we take the actions that we do – even of you don’t agree.
I would appreciate it if we all tried a wee bit of self-moderation.
Thanks for your understanding.
If Whyte hadn’t bought Rangers , this would have been the likely scenario of events.
1 David Murray would have remained majority owner.
It isn’t disputed that MIH had been unsucessfully trying to dispose of their shareholding for many years. There were no takers. There has also been emails purported to be from Murray to Martin Bain stating that there was no alternative to Whyte’s offer.
That moves us on to stage 2
2 Murray remains as owner , whilst MIH are in the middle of selling assets, business’ and depend on Lloyds converting debt to equity for survival. MIH have now reached the end of their corporate life , with a Ā£22 million shortfall in the pension scheme and Lloyds debt of Ā£350 million still unpaid , based on the latest accounts , with no sellable assets left to settle this debt in any significant way
This takes us to 3
3 It is entirely reasonable to suggest that no funds of any significant or material nature would have been available to Rangers from Murray or any other source.
Therefore the sequence of events following the losses in European competition would have ensured a very significant financial loss in season 2011-12. With no funding available from MIH to cover this loss and no increases in bank facility from Lloyds , it would have been impossible to meet creditors payments as they fell due.
An individual like Craig Whyte may well have been prepared to play fast and loose with PAYE, VAT and the Wee Tax case , however that would not have been an option open to the board of Alistair Johnston. That board would have had to call in administrators once it became obvious no funds were available to meet debts as they fell due.
The Ā£18 million was long term debt and only term payments would have had to have been made, but the WTC , PAYE and NIC as well as VAT were due as they fell . No European money , meant no cash to call ion and the inevitable would have happened . No European football 2 years previously resulted in a loss of Ā£14 million and a shortfall of between Ā£11 and Ā£14 million was what Rangers were facing as soon as European exit was assured in 2011, regardless of whether Murray or Whyte was in control
The only hope was a new owner with serious genuine funding , and no such individual or group were disposed to invest based on all available evidence.
Maybe TSFM could invite Alistair Johnston to show us what his survival plan was if no deal between Murray & Whyte had taken place
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/a-city-of-two-halves-from-national-ecstasy-at-celtic-park-to-agony-at-ibrox-1.2003377?page=2
Wee video clip from outside the court just turned up on twitter. ‘Hundreds of thousands of fans’ want an answer!
https://fbcdn-video-g-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xaf1/v/t42.1790-2/10698030_867084339989760_1646531587_n.mp4?rl=534&vabr=297&oh=f0f251ecf918be6b9bf19b62e44fc207&oe=546A5A55&__gda__=1416255575_fff73ee88196f7db781c933c469a982e
James Doleman says:
November 17, 2014 at 5:34 pm
On the contempt rules, they are even more restrictive during a pre-trial hearing. You can report it happened and date of any future hearing and thatās it.
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Precisely. It has been on my mind since the news broke on Friday that the Legal Authorities might well take action against a Blog who strayed by hammering them to make sure that everyone knew that ‘No Comment’ actually does mean ‘No Comment’.
To all intents and purposes the case is closed in terms of reporting until – and if – it goes to trial. And there can be no comment or background material discussed until a verdict is arrived at or the case otherwise disposed of.
On many different levels this just isn’t a game. It’s deadly serious and the consequences of the authorities deciding enough’s enough could be very severe for individuals or indeed a blog.
It’s not clever trying to find ways that allow comment to be made at this stage. There is no legally allowable way of doing this and people simply have to accept that.
I fear some commenter/poster will get it in the neck over this and it won’t be pleasant for them and could have serious personal consequences. It could also have serious consequences for a Blog – especially a very unique one like TSFM.
Posters really ask have to ask themselves whether it’s all worth it. And that’s without even considering the interests of justice and the rights of any accused.
No one wants to discuss this more than I do and to return to all the old stuff and go back over it. But it’s strictly OFF LIMITS and will be for a long time and at least probably well into next year.
Hundreds of thousands?
Gee how the support has shrunk from the 500 million the had in Charlie’s day.
andygraham.66 says:
November 17, 2014 at 6:29 pm
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/a-city-of-two-halves-from-national-ecstasy-at-celtic-park-to-agony-at-ibrox-1.2003377?page=2
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I can’t remember the last time I read a SMSM football report. What amazes me about this one is that it’s obvious the guy was actually at the match and not reporting it from a telly screen with the sound muted.
ecobhoy says:
November 17, 2014 at 6:32 pm
Posters really ask have to ask themselves whether itās all worth it. And thatās without even considering the interests of justice and the rights of any accused.
No one wants to discuss this more than I do and to return to all the old stuff and go back over it. But itās strictly OFF LIMITS and will be for a long time and at least probably well into next year.
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Well said, Ecobhoy. And many thanks to the moderators on here for their efforts in saving us from ourselves, both individually and collectively.
Barca,
Precisely. Given the time it had taken to establish guilt in the wee tax case and come to a settlement figure there’s no way HMRC were going to stall any longer. An instrument entirely of Murray’s making with an added edge due simply to the way that they (HMRC) had been treated over it.
And as you say, with the BTC still looming large in April 2011, no-one but no-one was coming over the hill, those who would be king or otherwise.
I can understand the appetite to discuss matters, now that we have reached a point that many of us thought would never come to be.
I would, however, endorse ecobhoy’s advice, and as John Clark noted – it can be like a pub discussion on here at times, but it’s all permanently on the record, so let’s think carefully about our comments, and let the legal system proceed for better or worse.
“Maybe TSFM could invite Alistair Johnston to show us what his survival plan was if no deal between Murray & Whyte had taken place”
here it is:
“All we wanted them to do was to migrate that debt into the Murray balance sheet. Why the bank wouldn’t do that, to avoid all the negative publicity, I still don’t know.
“The bottom line is that if Mr Whyte’s deal had not transpired, that [the transfer of debt to Murray] was the agenda.
“It would have been a win-win situation for everybody involved.”
yep, win-win.
Well, Ibrox shares still trading,
Not sure how much the fan groups have at stake but surely someone must be thinking about cashing that money out to use on Rangers III?
pau1mart1n says:
November 17, 2014 at 6:50 pm
Great find!
Wasn’t that a Beach Boys song?
“I’m picking up debt migration,
It’s giving me good vibrations”
etc
Paul Martin
I suggested earlier that the bears biggest problem was not understanding the funds flow at rangers.
I think your post sums it up even better as to the utter disregard the directors had by this point with the whole concept of debt servicing, never mind repayment.
Repayment. (N). Def. a thing for little people to worry about.
essexbeancounter says:
November 17, 2014 at 5:59 pm
At this point, I wouldn’t rule out flogging round the fleet šæ
On the contempt side there is a bright side.
When a case goes to trial all evidence put before the jury has absolute privilege. It can be reported without any threat of proceedings over defamation, slander, libel etc.
So it’s a bit of a deferred gratification thing but recent events suggest all of the take-over facts are going to be aired in open court with witnesses under oath.
scapaflow says:
November 17, 2014 at 7:04 pm
4 0 Rate This
essexbeancounter says:
November 17, 2014 at 5:59 pm
At this point, I wouldnāt rule out flogging round the fleet šæ
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Scapa…enjoying my first glass of red ink of the evening…do you really mean “flogging round the feet”…?…ifr so, I think it would be more appropriate for another genre of blogs…the type that Mrs EBC has barred me from…. š
Barcabhoy says:
November 17, 2014 at 6:25 pm
Maybe TSFM could invite Alistair Johnston to show us what his survival plan was if no deal between Murray & Whyte had taken place
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I have listened to Johnston a few times, both on Radio Clyde and Radio Scotland. He basically portrays an image of a Rangers heading towards financial health which was needlessly sold to Craig Whyte who took it into the financial abyss. He has never at any time been challenged on such an assertion.
Sad, but true.