Good Evening,
Whilst it is understandable that the continuing events at Ibrox remain a hot topic among all Scottish Football Fans — especially given the views of some sections of the press on such events– the never ending rush down the marble staircase is certainly not the only show in town.
The other morning we were treated to the “scoop” that Alistair Johnstone is afraid that Craig Whyte– the once proclaimed Multi Billionaire from Motherwell- may well still be pulling all the strings at Ibrox! This is a fear which is shared by those who walk the corridors of Hampden Park as they, too, are terrified of the prospect of Whyte returning in some shape or form and coming back to haunt them, especially as he has been deemed unfit and proper, banned sine die, and generally ridiculed for his past actions.
However, the Hampden jackets know fine well that their realm only stretches so far and that if by means of the proper application of company law, contract or some other piece of paper Whyte controls the shareholding of the self proclaimed “parent company” to the football club then they are in a fix. In fact, I will wager that they just would not know how to deal with such a situation as after all RIFC PLC neither holds a licence to play football nor is a member of the SFA and so, on the face of it, who owns it has nothing to do with them.
At this juncture, no one in authority knows who Blue Pitch Holdings are and, strangely, no one in authority knows who Margarita Holdings are either! Yet these two “holdings” whoever they may be, may well hold all the power down Govan way…… with the SFA completely powerless to find out who they are let alone get into any dialogue with them. All the SFA can do is talk to the appointed Directors and officers of The Rangers Football Club Ltd.
This, is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs.
Meanwhile, they will have no difficulty in finding out who the new shareholders of Dunfermline Athletic are. Those shareholders will come from the fanbase and will be clearly registered at Companies House, with the result that ultimately those fans/shareholders will appoint Directors who will then attend meetings and speak and opine on their behalf and in essence be the ” Voice of Dunfermline” at Hampden.
Perhaps, similar will follow from Heart of Midlothian?
However, those at Hampden — if they have any sense at all– will be most wary of events happening in the east end of Glasgow come November.
In the middle of the month, Celtic PLC will hold its AGM and amidst the items on the agenda is the fan driven notion that the Club— through its Directors—- should go further in holding the SFA to account and enquire into the granting of club licences, and in particular how it granted Rangers a club licence that allowed entry to the Champions League in 2011 when the small tax case was outstanding.
The Celtic board have deemed this motion as “Unnecessary” and in support of that contention have released documentation showing that they raised this very issue with the SFA on behalf of the shareholders and fans. Further– and here is the rub— The Directors reveal that they were not satisfied with the SFA response and have disclosed that they took the matter further and wrote to UEFA.
Ultimately, UEFA also provided a reply, which backed the SFA approach and which Celtic had little option but to accept in the absence of admissible contradicting evidence..
It is on this basis, that Peter Lawell and Co say the AGM motion is not necessary. Note that saying that the motion is not necessary, is not at all the same thing as saying that what the motion seeks to achieve is not necessary or does not have the support of the board!
There will be those at Hampden who severely hope that the Celtic Board are successful in voting this measure down as obviously they deem their original reply sufficient and would like to end the discussion there.
However, my own view, is that whether the motion is successful or not, there are those within the SFA who will recognise there is trouble staring them in the face here. Real Trouble!
Let’s recap for a moment and draw some threads together.
Celtic’s past Chairman, Dr John Reid, said only a couple of years ago that the SFA was clearly not fit for purpose. He did so in the context of events surrounding Neil Lennon and other matters, but was unshakably robust in his condemnation of an institutionalised uselessness which he saw pervaded the Hampden ranks.
Prior to that, Henry McLeish produced a report which stated that he too had concerns about the Governance of Scottish Football and called for openness and transparency.
In the intervening period, we have seen Mr David Longmuir, former Chief Executive of the Scottish Football League, find himelf without a position following reconstruction– and this partly as a result of club chairmen being apparently kept in the dark about his payment, bonuses and expenes. I understand that there was considerable anger from some at the way in which they had been treated by Mr Longmuir.
Then there is Mr Campbell Ogilvie, El Presidente, who himself benefited from a Rangers EBT and who held sway at Ibrox during a period of time when Rangers– by their own admission— made unlawful and illegal payments to three high profile players in breach of tax laws and SFA/SPL rules. It is these breaches and the consequent Wee Tax Bill which has caused all the angst among Celtic fans and has lead to the highly regulated legal step of tabling a motion at the club’s AGM.
Basically, the position seems to be, that as at the due date when the appropriate documents and declarations were made for a Euro Licence by Rangers for 2011, the wee tax bill was outstanding and due. If it was overdue, then the SFA could not and should not have granted them a licence……. and potentially Celtic should then have been put forward as Scotland’s representatives in the Champion’s League.
However, that did not happen, and Ranger’s were granted a licence– something that the Celtic Directors clearly felt was not correct.
They may have disagreed with the awarding of the licence because there were those at Rangers at the time who declared that a payment to account had been made to the tax office– allegedly £500,000– and that they had entered into an agreement to make payment of the balance by instalments. Had that been so, then all would have been hunky dory and no more would have been said.
Alas, however, no such payment appears to have been made at all, and no such agreement was entered into and so, on that basis, the tax bill was overdue and outstanding as at 30th June in terms of Article 66 and as such no Euro Licence should have been granted.
However, the argument does not end there.
Auldheid, has posted frequently on these pages about the ins and outs of the licensing provisions and the mechanism and so I will leave that detail to him as he is far more expert in these areas than me.
Now, one of the SFA functions is to have an auditor– someone who can check books, contracts, paper work and so on, and it is part of the SFA licensing function to be satisfied that all the paperwork is of course correct and in proper fashion before they issue any licence.
In this case, it is alleged that the SFA did not perform their function properly.
In relation to the wee tax case, it is said that either they did not make sufficient enquiry of Rangers re the payment to account or the agreement which they were told was in place. At the time it was mooted in the press that no such agreement was in place as at the relevant date ( June 30th ) and a simple check with the revenue would have shown the truth of the matter.
Yet, for whatever reason, no such check appears to have been made, and if you recall a Radio Scotland interview with Alistair Johnstone, Rangers submitted the forms, the SFA replied with one or two enquiries about the BIG tax case which were answered, and thereafter the Licence appears to have simply dropped through the letter box without further ado.
You will also recall that the existence of the wee tax case became known BEFORE Craig Whyte bought David Murray’s shareholding in May 2011. In fact it was the subject of News Paper headlines weeks before the deal was completed, and so the fact that there was a wee tax bill was well and truly in the public domain.
When it came to filling in the appropriate forms,either, the SFA were mislead by those then at Rangers with regard to that tax bill, OR, they simply failed to do the requisite checks and make reasonable enquiries before they issued the licence.
However, the uncomfortable fact also remains, that one of the chaps who must have been in the know re the admittedly unlawful and offending side letters, contracts and payments to the three players concerned was Campbell Ogilivie who was on the Rangers Board at the relevant time when the contracts and irregular payments were made under the Discount Options Scheme from 1999 to 2002/3. Indeed he may even have initiated the first payment to Craig Moore in 1999. I reiterate that no one has ever contested that this was an unlawful scheme, and the irregular payments and paperwork are not denied in relation to that scheme.
There are Celtic shareholders who believe, rightly or wrongly, that when it came to the granting of the Euro Licence, the SFA did not play them fair on this occasion and that the wheels within Hampden were oiled in such a way that Rangers were favoured and Celtic were disadvantaged. It is a point that looks to have already been considered by the Celtic Directors in 2011, with the result that they concluded that they should formally write to the SFA and seek clarification.
However, we now have the prospect of those same directors having to go back to Hampden and say ” Sorry, but I am forced to bring this up by my shareholders. I have a legal duty to them to enquire further”. Even if the motion is refused, the point has been made– there are shareholders who are demanding answers– just as shareholders of other clubs demand answers about the ever so secret 5 way agreement and other matters which have hitherto been not for public consumption.
The SFA have nothing to fear of course as they can simply repeat their previous answers,demonstrate that all was above board, and rest easy in their beds.
Except that answer did not satisfy the Celtic Directors on a previous occasion as they decided to take the matter to UEFA, and it would appear that some Celtic shareholders remain dissatisfied with the known stance of the SFA and so they want the Directors of the club to delve further. Without wishing to point out the obvious, if it turns out that the 2011 Licensing process was somehow fudged and not conducted rigorously or that those at Hampden were in any way economical with the truth or omitted certain details from the previous explanation, or covered up a failure in procedures—- well such omissions have a habit of becoming public these days whether that be through the internet or otherwise.
The point here is that the actions of Hampden officials are coming under organised, legal and planned corporate scrutiny over which they have no control. The Blazer and club mentality that was once so widespread within the governing bodies is under increasing attack and is being rendered a thing of the past.
In short, the move by Celtic shareholders, is making it plain that they will demand proper corporate governance from their club in ensuring that any alleged failure in corporate governance by the SFA or SPFL is properly investigated and reported on.
Of course, if it turns out that the 2011 Licensing process was somehow fudged and not conducted properly for whatever reason, then it could be argued that Celtic were disadvantaged in monetary terms along with other clubs who may have been awarded Europa League licences, then the consequences could be cataclysmic. Hence a tendency to circle the wagons rather than admit to failures in the process that need addressing.
It is this reluctance to come out and accept that the licensing process appears to have failed, say at what point the process failed and what needs to be done to address those failures that in many ways has driven the resolution. It is clear to all that something is amiss but the SFA will not admit it, probably from fear of the consequences of doing so? Perhaps some form of indemnity, a lessons learned enquiry with no prejudice might help?
It would come as no surprise to me at all if there were those at Hampden who live in dreaded fear of admitting that their processes were flawed and that a grave mistake was made. Under these circumstances, there may well be those at Hampden who simply wish that Celtic and their fans would just go away!
john clarke says: (1362)
November 16, 2013 at 9:17 pm
2
1
Rate This
Quantcast
john clarke says: (1361)
November 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm
‘[TSFM – John, I am surprised]]
——
I am surprised that you are surprised, TSFM!
=========================================================
Gentlemen
Following the comments from JC, may I respectfully ask if any other fellow contributors, let alone any “churnalists”, to the blog have actually attended, “in person” the AGM of a PLC, fully quoted, AIM or otherwise…?
I can certainly assure all readers of this blog that some comments from the chairmen that I have had the dubious fortune to have served (!) would have been rendered penniless under the laws of libel had their full comments in the course of their respective AGM transcripts been reported in the financial press, let alone the insular and self serving MSM.
The Blair/Bremner analogy should be seen as a mere “throw away” line and seen as such….!
So who is now “paranoid”….?
essexbeancounter says: (313)
November 16, 2013 at 9:41 pm
This is considered as forensic analysis?
I pointed out both on here and on RTC that if this abomination now ploughing the grass at Govan were allowed to survive that they would come back twice as vile.
I was not alone in that assertion and it is all coming true.
I take comfort from the fact that it will not be long now. This is not speculation on my part. It is based on the fact that there are indeed higher powers working in the background on a case which will see the culprits brought to justice in a very public forum.
Patience is all we need.
When it all comes out the poor bears will have nobody to blame but themselves. They are all too keen to deflect and blame others but in the end it was done to them by their own kind.
When they die for the second time there must be no rush by CO and his acolytes to save them. They bring nothing positive to society.
Woolworths died when they went into liquidation. There may be many pound shops selling the same stuff and trading from the same premises as Woolworths but they are not Woolworths. This is a fact of Law.
If anyone in the SFA is stupid enough, and we know they are, to take on PL for his comments they will no doubt be faced with a real court and a real judge who will declare what we all know.
Rangers died and Sevco are trying to be them. They may look the same they may smell the same but they are not the same. The only real similarity is that they have the same propensity for producing sectarian bile.
While I know that something judicial is being prepared to bring the miscreants to book I am only able to speculate that there will be no AGM, it is not the way of the spiv.
Castofthousands says: (3)
November 16, 2013 at 9:28 pm
3
2
Rate This
Quantcast
RyanGosling says: (91)
November 16, 2013 at 1:43 pm
“I know exactly what I’m trying to say and I’m not doing it very well, apologies for that. I’m pretty sure I’m on the same page as you Spivco, I may just be inarticulate enough to sound as if I’m not.”
—————————
I have to chip in here. I don’t like to see someone taking a beating irrespective of the reasoning.
=======================
With the utmost respect, It seems as if you defend the man who cannot accept the truth of the Rangers(IL) saga,just because of the Truthful reaction of some on here.
For 2 years the truth about the liquidation of Rangers(IL) has been explained ad nauseam, I’ll repeat that, the truth. Not lies,the truth. Rangers (IL) as everybody knows,imploded.We all know that.
We are not telling lies about what happened to the clumpany,it’s fact.
We continue to tell the truth about the past and present situation at Ibrox,we do not lie.
Somebody comes on the blog to defend his team as is his right,a couple of things are pointed out to him concerning his choice of words.
We are not telling lies to him when we say you cant buy History, we are not telling lies when we tell him that the word liquidation means the end.
Still he cannot accept that,faced with the truth (again) he talks about continuing the history of a dead entity.
That’s why some people replied a bit negatively to him.
Of course he can support any team dressed in blue,just stop pretending to himself that it is the same clumpany.
Defending someone who will not accept the truth because he has came on here to state his case does him no favours whatsoever,it’s not the first time semantics have been used to try and deflect.
easyJambo says: (565)
November 16, 2013 at 9:29 pm
I’m sorry if I got my facts wrong, my only excuse is that I was getting them from the Scottish media.
So what was all the talk of the fabled ‘holding company’ in March?
Was it just mischief making or were they just confused (easy I know).
Were Hearts being drip fed money from Ukio Bankas and when they fell it was only a matter of time until the money ran out?
However my points about the SFA still stand.
How can they justify such a ludicrous stance where they tell the media puppets one thing and yet treat ‘The Rangers’ as a new club in domestic competitions?
john clarke says: (1362)
November 16, 2013 at 9:17 pm
john clarke says: (1361)
November 16, 2013 at 6:28 pm
‘[TSFM – John, I am surprised]]
——
I am surprised that you are surprised, TSFM!
I have long been of the view that the major sin was that of the SFA in setting aside their rules
========================================
I’m in complete agreement John.
SFA could have nipped all of this in the bud long ago. They never have properly clarified the status of new club/ old club! Is it Blair or Bremner?
There was a lot of bluster on Sportsound tonight, particularly from Jackson and English, that the SFA and UEFA had agreed that rangers were still rangers, history intact, etc. English was particularly vocal that if SFA and UEFA said it, then it must be true.
The problem I’ve got is that I’ve never seen a written dictation that this is fact.
I can’t ever remember seeing Mr Regan on telly or radio explaining the actual status? Nor Mr Ogilvie?
Is it not too much to ask for a proper clarification from OUR National Football Association as to the status of the club currently playing at Ibrox. I mean a proper clarification, including details of all documentation relating to discussions with RFC/ TRFC/ Sevco/ whoever they may be!
The SFA are extremely up to their necks in S$£t at the moment over this pantomime. They are a laughing stock, with no respect from the Scottish Public looking on. We all know why!
BBC, STV, is it not time we had a Questions and Answers session?
The Public need answers and clarification of the exact status of what this club is.
It’s quite simple really. Regan or Ogilvie could make a Public statement and say either:
1) Rangers were liquidated last year, but they are still Rangers, history intact.
2) Rangers were liquidated last year. A new club applied for membership and were accepted. This new club will play out of the old stadium Rangers played in. We’ve allowed them to play in the same strips the old rangers teams wore, including “1872” on the back of those shirts, even although they were only formed in 2012. Because they play in the same place, we’re happy to keep calling them Rangers, and, just to keep them onside, let’s pretend they can keep their 54 titles, etc.
3) Rangers were liquidated last year. We’re too scared to tell the truth because we’ll lose our cushy jobs. We know we are supposed to be the custodians and leaders of our national game, but sometimes self preservation is needed to ensure we survive. So, nothing to see. Please move on, Trust us!
With regard the ‘The Rangers’ official response to the Peter Lawwell’s, ‘Bremner’ comment…
A good friend of mine has always maintained that good football managers who make critical comments on officialdom (referees, linesmen, associations) only ever have two reasons for any outburst, the dual rationale he called it and he claimed both elements were often in play at the same time, though not always.
1. Deflection form his team’s poor performance – It wasn’t our fault
2. An attempt to influence future decisions – we were robbed, you owe us
It is a pretty decent summation of post-match comments and whenever I watch an interview then everyone including Ferguson, Mourinho etc. uses the same tactics with unrelenting regularity.
Leaving aside what the ‘The Rangers’ support actually think, I am interested in applying this theory to the current ‘Rangers’ board, there is a dual rationale applied to everything the current leadership does and says
1. Remove cash from the business and therefore move it towards an insolvency event
2. Make public utterances that deflect attention from Pt1.
A fairly consistent modus operandi can be seen using this simple duality.
Of course, in the context of yesterday’s AGM, a third possible motivation for Peter Lawwell which would be best expressed using the words of Mr Glenn Tilbrook & Mr Chris Difford….
”You have to throw the stone to get the pool to ripple”.
Amongst all this glorious nonsense from this blog, may I respectfully enquire if the “Blair/Bremner” analogy has now entered the lexicon, along with that old favourite “omnishambles”…?
BigGav says: (76)
November 15, 2013 at 11:33 pm
” Willow in May 2012 then sold/transferred their shares to Liberty,..”
——————
Your analysis seems essentially sound. Charlotte’s ‘Sevco statutory records’ has Willow as a nominee for Liberty Capital, so there was only ever 5,000,000 shares between both of these entities with the other 5,000,000 being held by Korissa.
Cerdan says: (7)
November 16, 2013 at 10:31 pm
Of course, in the context of yesterday’s AGM, a third possible motivation for Peter Lawwell which would be best expressed using the words of Mr Glenn Tilbrook & Mr Chris Difford….
”You have to throw the stone to get the pool to ripple”.
=========================================================================
Cerdan….as I have said a few times on this blog….”….pure dead brilliant…I wish I had said that…!”
PS …Messrs Tilbrook and Difford…who dem guys…? I hope they are not beancounters…!
Tic 6709 says: (553)
November 16, 2013 at 10:18 pm
“Defending someone who will not accept the truth because he has came on here to state his case does him no favours whatsoever,it’s not the first time semantics have been used to try and deflect.”
———————
Fair comment Tic. My natural inclination after coming to the aid of some poor blighter would be thereafter to quiz them on how they had managed to get themselves embroiled in such a skirmish in the first place. My recollection is that Ryan’s posting history is not that of someone who could be characterised as a troll or someone who is being unnecessarily provocative. He seems to be open to debate and may represent that element of the blue fraternity that would be considered decent.
I have never been that comfortable with the outlook that Rangers have died but following lengthy tuition by the likes of Slimshady, have grown to appreciate that acceptance of this actuality will be an important element in arriving at a satisfactory conclusion to events. I’d like to cut Ryan a bit of slack. As a Rangers fan he will have more difficulty than I at arriving at the same conclusion. I think he needs to get there under his own steam, albeit with a little prodding along the way. We need to keep the likes of Ryan onboard I believe, otherwise the undoubted effectiveness of our stance may be diminished.
It strike me that Peter Lawell’s comments were wholly inaccurate !
To draw an accurate comparison,he really should have suggested Rory Bremner mimicking Harold Wilson !
justshatered says: (254) November 16, 2013 at 10:18 pm
I’m sorry if I got my facts wrong, my only excuse is that I was getting them from the Scottish media.
So what was all the talk of the fabled ‘holding company’ in March?
Was it just mischief making or were they just confused (easy I know).
Were Hearts being drip fed money from Ukio Bankas and when they fell it was only a matter of time until the money ran out?
=====================================
Yup! that’s what happens when you rely on the SMSM.
….. and yes it was mischief making, mainly by Hibs and Spivco fans. 👿
The simplest explanation of the failure of all three companies is sequenced as follows.
UBIG borrowed excessive amounts of money from Ukio over a period of years
Hearts borrowed some of that money from UBIG over a period of years
The Lithuanian authorities started investigating Ukio for excessive lending to related parties (i.e. UBIG) in 2011
UBIG turned off the tap of money to Hearts and assigned approx half of Hearts debt and a security over Tynecastle to UBIG in 2012
The Lithuanian authorities declared Ukio insolvent in February 2013 (liabilities significantly exceeded assets)
Hearts went into administration in June 2013
UBIG insolvency proceedings commenced in late July, but administrators were only appointed last week.
The common factor in these events was Vladimir Romanov. i.e. he borrowed other peoples’ money from his own bank (Ukio investors and depositors) and used it to support various business and sporting interests. He has probably salted a few million away in offshore accounts though. Sound familiar?
Vlad remains on the run from the Lithuanian authorities, living in Moscow.
Tif Finn says: (861)
November 16, 2013 at 6:42 pm
21 1 Rate This
Keith Jackson has clearly never read the Daily Record.
Or like Jim Traynor has had some epiphanic experience.
=================================================================================
Surely you mean “Jim Traynor is an epic phanny”
Rory Bremner ?
“BattleBus Tours”
“McGills”
There is a joke in there somewhere!
And a Truth.
I appreciate the comments I’ve seen from people cutting me some slack.
I do think there seems to have been a point though where what I posted today has been twisted. My first post on the subject this morning was quite clear that I knew Rangers had been liquidated and that the new company was a new club. I discussed my reasons etc. for following the current Rangers. At no time did I claim that there was any continuation of a legal entity, and yet I am now being accused of “pretending to himself that it is the same clumpany” and “will not accept the truth”. Sorry tic but you’re mistaken here. You seem to have a template of a Rangers fans’ views and you’re trying to squeeze me into it by putting words into my mouth which I did not say.
And therefore castofthousands, while I greatly appreciate your comments of support, I don’t agree that I need to “get there”. I was there in my first post on the subject today. I’m not sure where else people would like me to get to! (No cheeky answers please!! 😆 )
I was sickened, while not totally gobsmacked, at the absolute horsing Celtic took on Sportsound Extra tonight, simply because of one comment by the Celtic CEO.
Keith Jackson – Completely cherry picked any part of any story that suited his agenda as a Rangers fan.
Tom English – Extremely disappointing he chose to say Rangers were right to complain to the SFA as their fans were offended! God save us!
Graham Spiers – was happy enough to say Rangers are ‘technically’ a new club but was dismissive of any notion Celtic or their fans should have any issue with them or their fans thinking they are the same club.
It was clear as soon as that panel was announced that Celtic were going to take an absolute pasting tonight and they did. Shame on the BBC – complete and utter shame. If the publicly funded national broadcaster can’t bring themselves to use our licence fee to allow even one person to defend Celtic we may as well be back in the 1950’s.
RyanGosling says: (92)
November 16, 2013 at 11:13 pm
“The world loves a trier” Ryan so keep trying to understand and accept the fundamental truths of what is said re TRFC.
Every day the internet and the MSM take their eye off the ball with distractions the spivs siphon another 38,000 pounds a day. They do not have a credit facility and when the money runs out the spivs walk away and will then adding insult to injury and demand rent for the stadium from version 3.
Cast of thousands, good to see you back posting regularly again. It seemed you were always on for a spell then went quiet. I, for one, missed your sound input. On Ryan’s comments and the response to them, I’ve had polite and, I think, good natured exchanges with him before on the new/old club issue and agree with you that he does have a sensible and realistic view on the liquidation. I did, however, take issue with his view that the history is “attached to the new club” and that he would consider the new club’s first SPFL Premier win (if that happens) to be both their first and fifty fifth. As I’ve said before, I would be quite happy if RFC* fans took pride in what the club they used to follow had achieved (i.e. their ‘world record of 54 league titles) and started now to support the new club as it tries to match that sort of impressive past record. What I don’t buy is that they know what liquidation means (the end) but pretend that the history of the liquidated club can in some way continue. Take pride in the history and honour it by all means, but if you know what liquidation means then you know what liquidation means. Ryan can’t have it both ways.
Ryan, good to see you’re still watching and posting and for what it’s worth I agree with you about the use of unnecessary words to describe RFC* fans.
StevieBC says: (887)
November 16, 2013 at 3:29 pm
I think PL had a ‘Mourinho’ moment : you know, when Mourinho comes away with a controversial comment, knowing full well it will create a media frenzy – but it distracts attention away from his team which is what he wanted anyway.
,,,,,,,,,,,,
You may be correct but I hope not
Consider this
PL is a businessman. His colleagues have decades of experience running successful companies. They will have come across many Spivs in their day. They know the Spiv MO is unethical but legal. They know they will sell on the carcase to less scrupulous people. The implications of RFC being liquidated and a new club claiming its fan base will have been the subject of intense discussions around the table.
For sure the Parkhead Board Room will be as well informed as this blog on what is most likely to happen next
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
So
I believe PLs jibe and the reference the deeds to Parkhead were deliberate comments
The jibe about TRFC was done in the full knowledge that nobody of significance can respond adequately from Ibrox. The CFC Board have calculated that TRFC are very likely to have the same fate as the club they profess to emulate. They will also have calculated that the new club will struggle financially for the foreseeable future
As for the so called complaint to the SFA
If it actually reaches them it will cause a bigger problem for the governing bodies than it will for Celtic
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I reckon
These AGM comments represent the first public assertion from CFC that the Old Firm is dead
Torquemada@5:43pm
I’m wi’ you mate.
Fair enough nawlite. I suppose when its put like that, and you at least have clearly read and understood what I wrote on the subject earlier, then yes I essentially am trying to have it both ways. I’m certainly not pretending that the history of the liquidated club continues in any way. With regards to the number of titles, I was asked for my view on that and I gave it honestly. It quite possibly doesn’t make much sense. But rest assured that I don’t need to be convinced on what liquidation means.
Fisiani says:
======================
My eye is firmly on “the ball”.
The longer The Rangers’ support concentrate on ridiculous notions like “the same club” argument the longer they are ignoring the real issue. The new club’s business model is every bit as bad as the previous one’s.
£14m trading loss in a 13 month period. Nothing being done to fix it. No credit facility available to cover the losses. That is what is really important just now.
The Rangers’ support are ignoring the real issues and concentrating on things which really don’t matter. Seriously, you have little or no money left and a board which cares not one jot about your club’s future.
That really is much more important than 8 words form Peter Lawwell at another club’s AGM.
upthehoops says: (654)
November 16, 2013 at 11:21 pm
I was sickened, while not totally gobsmacked, at the absolute horsing Celtic took on Sportsound Extra tonight, simply because of one comment by the Celtic CEO.
Keith Jackson – Completely cherry picked any part of any story that suited his agenda as a Rangers fan.
Tom English – Extremely disappointing he chose to say Rangers were right to complain to the SFA as their fans were offended! God save us!
Graham Spiers – was happy enough to say Rangers are ‘technically’ a new club but was dismissive of any notion Celtic or their fans should have any issue with them or their fans thinking they are the same club.
It was clear as soon as that panel was announced that Celtic were going to take an absolute pasting tonight and they did. Shame on the BBC – complete and utter shame. If the publicly funded national broadcaster can’t bring themselves to use our licence fee to allow even one person to defend Celtic we may as well be back in the 1950′s.
********************
Biggest problem is Kenny MacIntyre tweeted this yesterday as the reason Keef Jackson was on the show…
Kenny Macintyre @bbckennymac 15 Nov
#Sportsound Extra 5.15 tomorrow – we will get Keith Jackson’s response to @RFC_Official statement. He’s got plenty to say on it. #Rangers
Now when he is asked why it was not discussed he is tweeting excuses why not…..
Kenny Macintyre @bbckennymac 1h
To answer lots of tweets – we were planning on discussing Rangers statement tonight but for reasons I can’t go into we didn’t.
Kenny Macintyre @bbckennymac 41m
I’m usually up for debate on Twitter – as open as I can be. But I just can’t say anything on this – as much as I would like to.
Kenny Macintyre @bbckennymac 44m
Some great responses.I just wanted to say that it was on agenda but there had to be change of plan.I just can’t expand on it right now.
So why the mysterious silence? Did Jack instruct them to concentrate on PL instead? And to think we pay for the BBC to do this…………..
No I’m sorry Mr Gosling you can’t pick and choose which bits of the ‘history of RFC’ you agree with.People on here(not me)are prepared to cut you some slack yet you still have a comeback each time.For me that’s the bit that irks.You just can’t accept the whole scenario of cheating,obfuscation,denial etc.It seems to me you are merely a microcosm of the wider picture.
RyanGosling says: (93)
November 16, 2013 at 11:13 pm
11
4
Rate This
I appreciate the comments I’ve seen from people cutting me some slack.
…
I don’t agree that I need to “get there”. I was there in my first post on the subject today.
_________________________________________
Ryan’s contribution has been engaging and thoughtful. He is the one cutting people slack here to a large extent. There is understandable and justifiable anger at the continuation nonsense spouted in the media, by some fans of TRFC, and by the executive of that new club, for whatever nefarious ends. Ryan and his like should not be the target of this anger. He is part of the solution, not the problem.
Ryan has largely disassociated himself from this ‘same club’ nonsense- while advancing opinions and arguments that are reasoned and worthy of debate. There is some confusion in his views for sure, and there will be dissent. He is far from alone in that.
But for anyone relying on or immersed in the warped lens output of the MSM, SFA and Ibrox press releases for their information – let alone a fan of TRFC- to get to the point and perspective that Ryan has, betrays a level of insightfulness and open mindedness that I would suggest some of his detractors might aspire to.
Our old friend is out in twitter again………..
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharIotteFakes3 1h
@TomEnglishSport is a quivering coward of a journalist, that shames his profession.
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharIotteFakes3 43m
For the avoidance of doubt, Rangers FC established 1872 died.
It is extremely relevant that the perpetuating lies by the MSM are exposed.
Charlotte Fakeovers@CharIotteFakes3
Information received means that the future existence of Rangers FC depends on a historical break between RFC 1872 and the current club.
Charlotte Fakeovers@CharIotteFakes3
Information received means that the future existence of Rangers FC depends on a historical break between RFC 1872 and the current club.
Rangers FC don’t exist, it’s a break from the propaganda that purports the myth and adherence to rules surrounding liquidation/Phoenixing that should dictate any form of existence. No bargaining or dealing just implementing of the rules as they stand.
Castofthousands says: (5)
November 16, 2013 at 9:28 pm
Ryan has a right to support his team as much as anyone else. Lets not allow ourselves to become the mirror image of the mob we have grown to detest. Rangers may be dead but if Ryan wants to support a team playing in blue out of Ibrox then that’s fine for me.
——————————————————-
I don’t believe anybody is trying to deny Ryan the right to support a football team.It is, though, perfectly acceptable to highlight the errors in his position and to support such dissent with logical and factual analysis. Indeed , Ryan’s emotional attatchment to what once was, but is no more, is understandable; however nobody is ganging up on him.Every point made to him so far has been calm and reasonable .TSFM might feel that it projects an image of intolerance and hatred of the defunct club which is of some concern to the moderators of an all inclusive forum but it has been pointed out repeatedly ..”facts are chiels”. Name calling is another argument but football fans have never been especially chivalrous and as long as it isn’t racist/sectarian/homophobic or frowned upon by society in general then ho-hum.What Ryan believes is up to Ryan but if he posts such opinion here he can hardly expect it to pass without the wider football fanbase correcting him.
Exiled Celt on November 17, 2013 at 12:29 am
Our old friend is out in twitter again………..
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharIotteFakes3 1h @TomEnglishSport is a quivering coward of a journalist, that shames his profession.
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharIotteFakes3 43m For the avoidance of doubt, Rangers FC established 1872 died. It is extremely relevant that the perpetuating lies by the MSM are exposed.
Charlotte Fakeovers@CharIotteFakes3 Information received means that the future existence of Rangers FC depends on a historical break between RFC 1872 and the current club.
___________________________________
I just came on to post the very same, saved me the effort!
What could it mean? Are BDO finally making their move? Phoenix company anyone? 😮
Spring heeled Jack! Charlotte suspended already… 😐
Charlotte Fakeovers @CharIotteFakes 13m
Watery @TomEnglishSport moves with the tide….
http://www.scribd.com/doc/146936945/Tom-English-Accounts …
Edit – 10 mins later twitter gone already but download still out there.
Tom English’s latest offerings – I did think he was one of the better ones but I see in this article he is spinning the lie that the Auldheid motion is to do with TRFC getting a licence from SFA – the same lie many other churnalists have done. This is why we know where it is coming from!
The rest is possibly one of the most transparent MH offerings he has done to date – as per CH above, I think Tom is doing someone a favour here. Just in case he cares, my obsession is to do with seeing a level playing field in Scotland for all clubs – without fear or favour. Hence Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Hearts, Arbroath and every other team is also “obsessed”. And if anyone at SFA is conflicted, it is Campbell Ogilvie – or is he instructed not to touch that subject? Very sad journalism………..
http://www.scotsman.com/news/tom-english-the-way-of-things-between-celtic-and-rangers-1-3191758#.UohAlu4RQaQ.twitter
Double post – sorry!
upthehoops says: (654)
November 16, 2013 at 11:21 pm
56 5 Rate This
————
I actually thought Spiers was the best of the bunch yesterday. He didn’t shy away from naming new club a new club. He has at least talked to insolvency experts. He was also set upon a little by Jackson on the issue, with Mr English strangely belittling the idea.
Tom English, particularly, seemed to seize on the Celtic story. Was that to even up his image of being impartial towards both sides of the divide? Maybe he feels he’s been too much on TRFC’s case of late? But if “the story” was the living wage I wish he’d have articulated more about it as I have only superficial knowledge of that.
I’d congratulate Spiers yesterday. He was conciliatory, too much so for many no doubt, although his naming the case of Fiorentina is probably relevant — which begs the question of how UEFA can pick and choose which teams they regard as the same teams, after insolvency. Funnily enough, I read a long time ago that the Italian FA had a bit of a contretemps with Fiorentina due to the current club claiming past history! Where does that leave the SFA? 🙂
Danish pastry
Regarding the way UEFA deal with things
Here is an excellent post from yesterday, highlighting UEFA’s inconsistencies, shall we say –
……………………………………………………….
whatsthescore says: (5)
November 16, 2013 at 7:28 pm
26 2 Rate This
Re res 12, what about the case of Atletico Madrid. By 2011, they owed the Spanish tax man £176m. The tax authorities had refused to sign off their accounts from the previous four years. The Spanish FA continued to licence them and UEFA turned a blind eye…and remembering in 2011-12 they knocked Celtic out of Europe before going on to win the Europa League. Supposedly, they reached a repayment agreement on the tax, but what do you know, they fell behind in the schedule.
UEFA withheld their prize money from 2011-12, but there was no suggestion they should have their licence revoked. If they did that, people might say what about the £40m in back taxes Barcelona have yet to pay…and what about…and what about…………..
Simple solution to the New Club/ Old Club discussion, why doesn’t one single journalist just ask the question to The SFA?
If you (the media) are really that concerned about it, go ask the question and print the response.
I cannot believe that a fundamental topic such as this, discussed on all media forums for at least the last 12 months has not solicited one single question to the game’s governing body…….. As I’ve said, I CANNOT believe that!
Madbhoy24941 says: (313)
November 17, 2013 at 8:03 am
1 0 Rate This
Simple solution to the New Club/ Old Club discussion, why doesn’t one single journalist just ask the question to The SFA?
———–
Tom English seemed to think the SFA believe it’s the same club. Not sure how he’s worked that out.
Sportsound Extra podcast 47min in (47min 15sec), Spiers asks: “Here is the question — are Rangers a new club or are they not?”
Keith Jackson: “Oh god …”
The debate thereafter is pretty revealing.
Well done. TSFM. I’m proud of you. Kind of…
I was on another forum where a poster had put up an article saying Celtic have u-turned and indeed decided to continue dialogue with the SFA over the 2011 Euro Licence. The reason for taking it off the table at the AGM was to avoid those who do not have the clubs interests at heart manipulating it for their own ends.
Anyone know any more about this?
That’s a splendid article, Mr English.
I don’t know if you had time to read it between receiving it and publishing it but you should try to find the time today.
You’ll be very proud.
If the Charlotte tweets are genuine about Tom English being in MH’s pocket,then as far as i’m concerned he is just another lickspittle for the cause and i wont believe another word he speaks or writes.
I also note that S. Cosgrove has been sidelined in favour of Jackson and English, is this the BBC trying to pander to the Sevconian entity,because this is not an impartial take on the situation, and it is a sad state of affairs when the national broadcaster is afraid to have a fair and balanced debate on the new/old club debacle.
Another gem from the DR.
My favourite bit is where he adds the word ‘undefeated’ to the end of his only potentially relevant sentence.
======================
David McCarthy
David McCarthy: Rangers must improve their scouting network quickly
WHILE boardroom battles at Ibrox continue to dominate headlines – DAVID says the non-existence of a scouting network is one of the most damaging blows inflicted upon the club.
14 Nov 2013 08:34
SNS Group/Rob Casey
KENNY McDOWALL stood in for Rangers boss Ally McCoist at a press conference a couple of weeks ago.
At it he said ‘there’s no scouting structure. Since Neil Murray went it has been left to ourselves. A club of this size needs to have a scouting network’.
That statement wasn’t given a big billing but it should have been.
It should have been screaming from the top of every article written from Murray Park that day because for a club of Rangers’ size to not have a scouting network is nothing short of a disgrace.
While all the battling, back-biting and bluster from those who are fighting for the right to run Ibrox has dominated the headlines, this fundamental element in any club’s well-being has been neglected.
And that is as corrosive as some of the nonsense that has been going on at the top of the marble staircase for God knows how long.
Think about it for a minute. The Gers have recruited nine players since the ending of their registration embargo.
But apart from Arnold Peralta, who was presumably flagged up to them by a foreign agent, and Bilel Mohsni who was recommended by Paul Sturrock, the rest were known to McCoist, Ian Durrant and McDowall because they’d played football in Scotland.
Nicky Law, John Daly, Richard Foster, Cammy Bell, Steve Simonsen, Stevie Smith all had previous SPL experience and Nicky Clark’s 41 goals for Queen of the South last season made the decision to sign him easy.
Those players were not signed as a result of a sophisticated scouting network but Rangers are going to have to build one as a matter of priority.
They can’t go on merely cherry-picking Premiership players. That kind of short-term policy is unsustainable.
Rangers have won League One already. The only debate is whether they can go through the season undefeated.
They could win the Championship next season with the same squad as they have at the moment.
But without a scouting organisation, where is the next generation of Rangers player coming from?
Without a network out there to identify young talent, how are they going to find and select future prospects to bring to Murray Park.
Rangers are already miles behind the likes of Dundee United in identifying, raising and playing young talent.
One of the players of the season this term, United left back Andy Robertson, was even playing in the same division as the Ibrox club last season at Queen’s Park, yet they missed him.
Robertson, Ryan Gauld, John Souttar, Stuart Armstrong, Ryan Dow – all kids getting Premiership experience.
Rangers had the chance to blood their own kids but the only one to do so has been Lewis Macleod. Others have been given occasional outings but he is the only regular.
A scouting web isn’t only for identifying kids. Look at the role Inverness Caley’s chief scout Steve Marsella has done for Terry Butcher.
Marsella either has one hell of an eye for a player or a contacts book to die for because year after year he is bringing players from backwaters such as Macclesfield and Kidder-minster to the attention of Butcher and Maurice Malpas.
But they can’t be sourced if there is a condemned sign hanging from the door of the scouting department.
And all of this is before you start to think of what is needed to co-ordinate a global scouting organisation to bring untapped talent from around the world. It won’t come cheap but if the money blown on pay-offs and bonuses to over-paid executives and directors had been channelled into youth, it could be up and running by now.
Instead, the scouting department has been allowed to wither and die.
It is one of the many blows inflicted upon this club and although it has been largely ignored, it has been one of the most damaging.
chancer67 says: (91)
November 17, 2013 at 8:47 am
2 1 Rate This
… I also note that S. Cosgrove has been sidelined in favour of Jackson and English, is this the BBC trying to pander to the Sevconian entity,because this is not an impartial take on the situation, and it is a sad state of affairs when the national broadcaster is afraid to have a fair and balanced debate on the new/old club debacle.
———-
I thought Stuart C. sounded exasperated last week. Wouldn’t surprise me if he’d said thanks but no thanks. It was partly Spiers’ fault for a rather rude intervention that saw him wish Stuart could ‘self edit on air’, or words to that effect. To his credit Spiers did apologize on air, but the damage had been done. Oddly enough, Spiers was the only honourable pundit on yesterday’s programme. Perhaps, he’s done a wee bit of soul-searching this past week?
Tom English has a balancing act to perform. He sometimes leaks what he really feels (A wee bit) but most of the time, well… :slamb: … “What’s your take on it Tom?”… “Er, well, like…GULP- Same club!”
The question remains, is he ruled by fear or something/someone else?
Where’s the credibility in Kenny McIntyre,Spiers and Jackson all being on the same programme when they are all self confessed Rangers fans.?
Neutral BBC Scotland-I don’t think so
yakutsuki says: (136)
November 17, 2013 at 9:20 am
1
0
Rate This
Tom English has a balancing act to perform. He sometimes leaks what he really feels (A wee bit) but most of the time, well… :slamb: … “What’s your take on it Tom?”… “Er, well, like…GULP- Same club!”
The question remains, is he ruled by fear or something/someone else?
——————————————————————————————————————————————-
Tom English is capable of writing some very decent,truthful articles, but as you say, he has a balancing act to perform. I imagine English sits behind a desk when penning his latest piece with an “In ” and “Out” tray on either side. Exchange in and out for ” negative Celtic” and “negative Sevco” and you are there. When one side gets a little top heavy, he needs to re-address the balance. If he kept to the truth over the last 2 years we all know that the negative Sevco tray would be overwhelmed – and rightly so.
What English does though, like last night on Sportsound – he leaves his brain at the door and says (often writes) stuff that belies his intelligence.
I genuinely believe that although he is capable of the truth, his prime motivation is to play both sides against each other. He has to make a living out of this after all. I’m sure some previous Charlotte tweets had him in dialogue with Media House. It’s all political for him. He comes across as a very scheming, sleekit operator. I would have no problem at all with English if he was consistent, unfortunately the only thing that he seems to be consistent at is going from a decent, intelligent journo one minute, to a completely ill informed,churnalist the next.
A rebuttal of the English article by Peter on Twitter.
@TomEnglishSport @GrahamSpiers @bbckennymac
Someone is a liar Tom. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BZNdVJEIIAEg-vA.jpg:large
Who?
For your information, I reject your claim about Celtic fans being obsessed with Rangers (old or new). If there is any obsession it is about Scottish football governance and how they can totally disregard rules (and law) to state that a club that went into liquidation, er, well … didn’t.
Naturally “Rangers” are part of this subject but the main focal point in the debate is about the SFA and their lies. For let’s face it – why did Dunfermline even bother about the CVA or why do Hearts care about raising money, cutting costs or getting a CVA when there is a perfectly good plan in place to shed the debt?
I am utterly amazed you could be so vociferous towards Peter Lawwell due to a remark he made at the AGM. You say because he is part of the Scottish FA board he should be this or he shouldn’t be saying that …. or whatever …
Yet … when this same SFA tell blatant lies to perpetuate the myth that Rangers FC survived liquidation – you lose your voice. You aren’t so vociferous any more. Now I wonder why that is?
Is it only the Peter Lawwell part of the SFA you feel safe to criticise? Maybe by his remarks, Peter was dropping a hint yesterday at the Celtic AGM that he thinks it stinks when all other clubs have to live within their means and pay taxes etc., but one club can go bust and be reincarnated through lies about “club” & “company”.
Perhaps Peter was hoping there would be someone out there in journalist land with a backbone and a set or morals who might actually back him up on this. We now know Tom English ain’t that kinda duck.
Speaking of ducks –“if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck” is probably the most embarrassing statement to make when it comes to dealing with liquidation. Not to mention insulting for the creditors.
However I do have to give you some credit – you said that it was also a disgrace that this club owed so much tax. You might have a backbone after all.
However if the taxman goes up to this club and asks for the money back – will he get it? Of course not silly. A different club owed that tax. And that should be the end of the matter.
Your desperation to get everything “Old Firm” back to the way it was is understandable. You need the two clubs to bounce the supporters against each other – it gets a reaction. It sells papers. Hey – we know the score.
Or perhaps you just don’t want to go down the Jim Spence route?
It is obvious now that you have no desire whatsoever to tackle issues with the SFA – even if that same SFA is in the wrong – you are happy to dance to whatever tune they play. (Apart from when it’s Peter Lawwell of course).
And for what it’s worth – the SFA have never stated anything about Rangers or the history – well not in public. They have kept quiet and allowed succulent lamb lickspittles like you to do the talking for them.
Just remember Tom if you are ever owed money from a firm or an employer who suddenly goes bust but reappears soon to give you two fingers, to tell you they are the same company after all but you ain’t getting your money anyway – don’t feel aggrieved.
You are currently playing part in the biggest scam in British sport ever. And that will go down in history.
Facts are facts (and rules are rules – you might want to check them sometime) and no matter how many times you want to deny it – the club that was founded in 1872 is gone because it could not pay what it owed.
Don’t dare tell me that I am in the wrong for pointing this out.
Imagine the carnage that would be bestowed upon our game if every club could rack up silly amounts of debt only to go bust and reinvent itself debt free.
You don’t care about that do you? Of course not.
Enjoy the lamb.
Kenny McIntyre being called out on Twitter,about changing the content on last night’s show,the “rumour” being that BBC lawyers told the BBC to be very careful about what they say on the Lawwell jibe.
TE: “Bless me Father for I have sinned I’ve told lies”
Priest: “It’s not Sevco AGAIN is it?” 😀
There has been a fair amount of mocking going on regarding an appropriate name for the club that currently 🙄 plays out of Govan.
I’ve been giving the matter some thought and have came up with another.
The delightful Mr Green always said he was going to have a link up with the US of A and he even had e-mails to prove it with the Dallas Cowboys. Maybe he did have a link all the time, only the e-mail originated from Nevada just along the road? As we know, the Americans love a good franchise, so this land would be a perfect fit for CG/CW’s new all singing, all dancing mega club 😆
Which city in Nevada would they play out of? Wouldn’t it have to be Pheonix.
Pheonix Rangers.
Maybe BDO, could get “on board” with this and recommend the name change and change of location too!
Charlotte Fakeovers@CharIotteFakes3
Information received means that the future existence of Rangers FC depends on a historical break between RFC 1872 and the current club.
One for the list of names for the club formerly known as Rangers perhaps?
Kit Kat FC – have a break, have a Kit Kat.
Sorry folks, post above is not a rebuttal of the English article.
It’s a response to his performance on the wireless.
On Sportsound last night part of Tom English’s reasoning for new Rangers being a continuation of old Rangers was “if it looks, walks and talks like a duck then it’s a duck”
Therefore if we use his logic Rory Bremner looking, walking and talking like Tony Blair must in fact be Tony Blair.
But we know the truth. Rory Bremner is an impersonator who makes a living out of his talent for mimicking others. New Rangers are a club that makes their living not by impersonating another club but by actually claiming to be that same club.
Lest we forget (sic)
Oh and whilst I take a slight dig at their salute to Remembrance Day there’s another thing that is so crass that it beggars belief. Remembrance Day was started after the Great War. A war in which a vast number of the combatants were killed by artillery shells. The last thing most of them would have heard was the sound of the shell heading towards them. So someone has decided that the best way to commence a two minute silence is to replay this sound. Sick or what? Are the powers that be in the Armed Forces so blinded by all the loving attention foisted on them by RFC that they can’t see the hypocrisy in this.
Tic 6709 says: (554)
November 17, 2013 at 9:47 am
Your desperation to get everything “Old Firm” back to the way it was is understandable. You need the two clubs to bounce the supporters against each other – it gets a reaction. It sells papers. Hey – we know the score.
——————————————–
On one level tic this says it all. Last night the hacks were unanimous in their assertion that Sky were buying ‘the toxicity’, ‘the hatred’ ……….that is what ‘we’ offer, pepetuating the myth that all Scottish football financially hard wired to the Old Firm game. I would have thought historically Scotland has offered the world a bit more than a ‘permanent embarrassment and occasional disgrace’ to borrow a phrase, and currently the game is surviving quite nicely without the Glasgow hatefest. The ruinous fiscal policies that proliferated in Scottish football over the past 2 decades very nearly strangled the game, the collapse of Setanta proved a to be a painful but necessary wake up call, with more than a hint of serendipity, the top flight clubs had to rethink their fiscal policies and quickly, those who did not faced the humiliation of administration or worse the irreversible fate of liquidation. 😉
As for the new/old club debate it is far from over …the copper bottomed fact is RFC are no more…..that is why they are being liquidated, as a sports club, (not a company) , that’s why the SFA did not seed Sevco in the cup, that’s why UEFA did not admit Sevco to the European competition that the league placing of RFC would have merited. The truth is everyone was fearful of the consequences if they told the bears their club was dead. The hacks have a vested interest in keeping the ‘Old Firm’ dynamic alive, and it looked to me as though they were beginning the hype for the ‘next’ one, shamelessly exploiting a deep rooted social problem….who’d have th*nk it! Effin parasites! Still here’s hoping Sevco, the SFA and the hacks stew in their own juice and the rest of us can continue the impressive recovery, with exciting fixtures loaded with young players delivering a breath of fresh air into our game rather than the hacks who appear determined to deliver the stale belch of self interest.
The issue is as clear – whilst journalists with more than one brain cell continue to deny the truth, they are running scared of causing the social unrest Stewart Regan famously alluded to.
The truth can be found in many ways:-
1) The BBC were warned by their legal experts last night not to wade into the RFC complaint as to do so would be to fly in the face of the truth
2) There will be no reprimand of Peter Lawwell; he would be happy to go to court to establish the bona fides of what he said and no one at Hampden is going to risk that
3) If Sevco ever qualified for Europe, they would have the co-efficient rating of a new club; that tells you all you need to know about UEFA’s view on the matter
4) Sevco will be bust in 6 months’ time; are we going to keep pretending that every new incarnation is the oldco?
To paraphrase Tom English, if a Tom English spouts nonsense that looks like a Media House press release, and it sounds like a Media House press release and it reads like a Media House press release, then guess what, Tom? It most probably is a Media House press release.
Maybe when the Scotsman finally goes into liquidation it will finally penetrate even his thick cranium that there is no life after death.
The 12 page freesheet that will doubtless appear on the streets shortly after that may call itself “The Scotsman” but what are English and co, left with fees and expenses unpaid, going to say if it proudly has as its banner “196 years of unbroken journalism” ??
196 to 0
upthehoops says: (655)
November 17, 2013 at 8:28 am
4
0
Rate This
Quantcast
I was on another forum where a poster had put up an article saying Celtic have u-turned and indeed decided to continue dialogue with the SFA over the 2011 Euro Licence. The reason for taking it off the table at the AGM was to avoid those who do not have the clubs interests at heart manipulating it for their own ends.
Anyone know any more about this?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That might be a consequence of putting the resolution in abeyance, (it has not been withdrawn) but it was not the reason for doing so.
see
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/history-in-the-making/ for more.
This is the key part.
” The folks on the sixth floor at Hampden stated that granting the licence was within the letter of the law.
However the clarification process prompted by this resolution has thrown up questions over the SFA’s diligence apropos the monitoring from 30th June onwards.”
Had Celtic voted against they would have in effect been saying such clarification was unnecessary. The fact that they and the requistitioners agreed on an adjournment with an agreement that clarification would continue to be sought via the Company Secretary tells us that there are still questions to be answered on the process from 30th June.
However the fact that the granting was within the letter of the law, something that can no longer be disputed because the demand to pay did not arrive until 20th May, which meant that although the liability had been accepted before 31st March, technically it had not crystallised at that point and this enabled the licence to be granted within the rules. (This was not unexpected)
There would have been little point going to the CFCB from this position without getting further clarification from the SFA and this will be attempted via the Company Secretary.
One key point about Res 12 is not the content but what it has done. It has shown that clubs are accountable via the AGM process, it is just that it is used very little often because resolutions fail. As Phil says this is the first one not to.
I hope supporters of other clubs have taken this on Board. It is hard work getting any issue to a point where the case for supporting a resolution is persuasive but it can be done. In terms of my input on tsfm this lesson was important to me.
More important in terms of SFA reform the resolution also sends a clear message to the SFA that they, through clubs shareholders, are accountable for their decisions. That they cannot hide behind their concoctions and interpretations and presentations of the rules as suits their agenda, which tends to put commercial interests above integrity. They can be made to give answers and if they do not stand up to scrutiny then have to provide ones that do.
The further clarification that will be sought will only emphasise this point and the shareholders who signed up will be told what is being done as and when there is anything of significance to feed back.
The msm seem to have missed this significance but Mr Cosgrove has probably not focussed on it yet. 😉
valentinesclown says: (274)
November 16, 2013 at 6:36 pm
On bbcsportsound the question was asked old club or new club. I could smell the scent of excrement of fear emanating from my radio during a little pause. Mr Spiers agreed with insolvency laws and technically new club. Mr English passed wind and stated same club.
Jangles SFA said same club with all history. All agreed SFA have final say. Fear remains, well I hope it is fear anything else would really kill our game completely. Maybe PL can ask CO over coffee on Monday.
……………………………………………………
So let me get this right….
Mr. Spiers confirms insolvency laws are clear it is a new club! and he should know as an ex share holder who lost his shares with the old CLUB due to their liqudation.
Mr. English and Jackson….have opinioned that regardless of insolvency laws…they are the same?
Well we should say a big thanks to Tom and Jangles as they have just confirmed that the club currently playing out of Ibrox still have an outstanding debt of approx. 53 million pounds rising to approx. 139 million pounds depending on the outcome of the UTT to the existing creditors under BDO
For those who do not see the relevance of this arguement…the figures above highlight how important it is…and if it is important enough for those to want it to be the same club and are prepared to threaten and intimidate those who state otherwise…then it is important enough for us to repeatedly state they are not!
rougvielovesthejungle says: (63)
November 17, 2013 at 10:11 am
9 0 Rate This
The delightful Mr Green always said he was going to have a link up with the US of A and he even had e-mails to prove it with the Dallas Cowboys. Maybe he did have a link all the time, only the e-mail originated from Nevada just along the road? As we know, the Americans love a good franchise, so this land would be a perfect fit for CG/CW’s new all singing, all dancing mega club.
Which city in Nevada would they play out of? Wouldn’t it have to be Pheonix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But by the time they got to Phoenix/phoenix
they’d find the liquidation notice hangin’ on the door
(with apologies to Jimmy Webb)
The comments from English, Speirs, Jackson and the rest of the MSM, that Celtic are desperate to have Sevco promoted to the top division for the financial rewards, are nothing short of laughable, wishful thinking
I’m sure if you asked Lawwell which he preferred, he would tell you that he would rather have the income from the Champions League, than two home games against Sevco
The MSM desperately want Sevco, their little pet project, to be relevant, and tagging them on to Celtic’s coat tails, in their eyes makes them so
Make no mistake, the MSM and Sevconians are the only people who want to see Sevco in the top division
Lord Wobbly says: (967)
November 17, 2013 at 11:08 am
0
0
Rate This
Quantcast
rougvielovesthejungle says: (63)
November 17, 2013 at 10:11 am
9 0 Rate This
The delightful Mr Green always said he was going to have a link up with the US of A and he even had e-mails to prove it with the Dallas Cowboys. Maybe he did have a link all the time, only the e-mail originated from Nevada just along the road? As we know, the Americans love a good franchise, so this land would be a perfect fit for CG/CW’s new all singing, all dancing mega club.
Which city in Nevada would they play out of? Wouldn’t it have to be Pheonix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But by the time they got to Phoenix/phoenix
they’d find the liquidation notice hangin’ on the door
(with apologies to Jimmy Webb)
————————————————————————————————————————————-
Sorry Boys..hate to be a smart arse but Phoenix is in Arizona
Paulmac2 says: (781)
November 17, 2013 at 11:00 am
Indeed and we all know that they have simply taken this route to dodge their debt to the tax payer.
One thing to come out of this is how much of a deterrent being called a new club actually is and why it should be written into the SFA Articles that a club that has been liquidated can still continue in the same strip, at the same ground, with the same support even with a name like the liquidated club, but if they clear or undertake to clear their football debts, they can be re admitted to the game but as a new club. (the consequence of which is it cannot claim the history of the liquidated club.)
Everyone had I think accepted when Rangers were liquidated that the old club had died. Even Rangers supporters. Then the idea of holding company was peddled as a means of creating an illusion of complete continuity.
Had the SFA simply said they are a new club would that have stopped their support turning up in the same numbers? Highly unlikely, so why not make it clear now and for the future? Apart from the deterrent value it avoids the moral hazard and creates a more healthy environment for the development of the new club (who will always be the same as the old one to their support but it will stop them bleating about others who see them as new).
This has become a touchy subject simply because the illusion has given RIFC supporters something to ne touchy and offended about. The next thing we know Peter Lawwell will be being arrested under the Offensive Behaviour at Football rule and although this is meant as a joke the absurdity of the notion shows the total fallacy of continuing to claim that something is what it is not.
I see the chaps on follow follow are now discussing how easy winning the league … next season … will be. Ignoring the nature of that discussion, which is entitled “Next season: will we stroll it?” it raises and interesting point on expectations.
For example
“We’ll make additions to the squad over the Summer as we prepare for a return to the top flight. It won’t be a stroll but we’ll win it by a comfortable margin.”
and
“The team we have would win it , the team we have + new recruits will cruise it”
or
“We’ll win it comfortably and you’d have to hope that with matters settled off the field we’ll strengthen as well. Right Back, Centre Half and Forward required.”
It would appear that, in spite of running at a trading loss of £14m last year (13 months to June) there is still the expectation that the squad will be strengthened for next year. One assumes that means a net transfer spend and increase in player wage bill.
Nothing has really changed, spend to gain success even if you don’t actually have the money to spend in the first place.
100BJD says: (98)
November 17, 2013 at 11:15 am
0 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says: (967)
November 17, 2013 at 11:08 am
0
0
Rate This
Quantcast
rougvielovesthejungle says: (63)
November 17, 2013 at 10:11 am
9 0 Rate This
The delightful Mr Green always said he was going to have a link up with the US of A and he even
had e-mails to prove it with the Dallas Cowboys. Maybe he did have a link all the time, only the
e-mail originated from Nevada just along the road? As we know, the Americans love a good
franchise, so this land would be a perfect fit for CG/CW’s new all singing, all dancing mega club.
Which city in Nevada would they play out of? Wouldn’t it have to be Pheonix.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But by the time they got to Phoenix/phoenix
they’d find the liquidation notice hangin’ on the door
(with apologies to Jimmy Webb)
————————————————————————————————————
Sorry Boys..hate to be a smart arse but Phoenix is in Arizona
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aye. It just looks like Nevada
Interestingly, after a quick search engine search, one of the originally proposed names for Phoenix was Stonewall (after General Jackson).
Stonewall: Verb: Delay or block (a request, process, or person) by refusing to answer questions or by giving evasive replies
Just saying 😉
nawlite says: (187)
November 16, 2013 at 11:31 pm
“Cast of thousands, good to see you back posting regularly again. It seemed you were always on for a spell then went quiet. I, for one, missed your sound input.”
—————————-
Thanks for the kind words nawlite. For a few months in the spring TSFM became the centre of my universe, fueled in a large part by the copious amounts of material made available by Charlotte. The complexity of the saga can be a bit numbing at times and this, along with other distractions, have kept me out the loop for a wee while. I may have the opportunity to pull up a stool now and take a ringside view of what may prove to be a very interesting yuletide season.
On the trophies history topic I think there is a basic principle in play that the authorities have failed to grasp. I think Ryan has every right to associate the history of old Rangers with that of Newco just as others have every right to voice an alternative complexion.
I managed to rebuild my old Suzuki motorcycle over the summer. I had some problems and had to replace the cylinder head with a ‘used but good’ alternative. It is still the same motorcycle but I, more than anyone else, am acutely aware that it is not exactly the same as it was previously. It has become slightly diminished but over time this difference will lose its significance.
The comparison with Rangers is that there has been a concerted effort to reclaim the old history unblemished. This should have been addressed by the Lord Nimmo Smith inquiry where the opportunity existed to legitimately strip titles in recognition of the unfair advantage gained during the EBT period. LNS tenuous argument that no sporting advantage was gained through the use of EBT’s because Rangers might have funded the players from other sources if they had their time again, was plausible if not entirely believable. However to make a mockery of the rules of the institution he purported to represent by merely levying a fine for ‘mis-registration’ was preposterous. RFC(IL) may repel the UTT appeal placing the EBT scandal in neutrality but the mis-registration stance is and will remain, incongruous.
If the history had been diminished in a manner that was seen as proportionate I think the likes of Ryan could have accepted that and moved on. Some time may elapse before the big asteroid strikes the earth and the intervening period would have provided the opportunity for the lost ground to be made up. It is such a fundamental tenet of sport and life in general that if you break the rules and get caught you have to suffer a sanction, that not to evoke this principle was, for the want of a more eloquent term, stupid.
It has always been the case that the law is applied in the context of the environment in which it is practiced. Many legal and quasi-legal forums have returned unjust verdicts because their wider world has necessitated such (Hillsborough). However such outcomes often leave a feeling of dissatisfaction that grows to discontent which eventually fosters rampant opposition. We are not characterised as bampots for nothing. When you bang your head against a brick wall you are not going to appear at your most rational. However all that head banging is having a definite effect.
In my months of absence from the blog I have seen the media narrative change dramatically. Only a few weeks ago Regan was on the radio talking about Rangers and other things in terms that would have been seen as radical a year earlier. Even last nights SSB witnessed a G. Spiers that sounded almost conciliatory and it is much to his credit that he is capable of changing his stance. We may not have witnessed mushroom clouds but the earth has moved beneath our feet nevertheless. It has been more tectonic than nuclear but such slow movement is far more enduring than the cycle of revolution and counter-revolution.
What the saga should be telling us is that we can all become victims of ‘group think’. Indeed it is exactly that mob mentality, that social cohesion that brings supporters to football matches. It can be a bad thing and a good thing. TSFM exists to ensure that the good bit endures and is replenished. How effective this effort has been will be judged by future PhD students and ordinary guys in the streets who will retrospectively measure our success. It is a battle worth fighting no matter how much it hurts one’s head. Do not however expect any thanks or congratulations. This is the price that needs to be paid to keep the world sane.
I’m not sure how the deviation from the path of integrity can be redressed. It may be that Rangers tribulations will exact the necessary recompense without the need for external intervention. The antithesis of this is that if the social conditions had existed to allow a just outcome to be enforced, would Newco have avoided much of the grief it is currently undergoing. Fate may be doing the work that justice was loathed to burden itself with. So the lesson for the authorities might be that grasping the nettle keeps you in control and in authority. Failure to do so marginalises you and strips you of your power. Rangers has become a runaway train largely through the misguided efforts to maintain it in an undiminished form.
We on the other hand have received a great deal of enlightenment. Lets try and make the effort worthwhile by using that insight in a constructive manner.
Nevada/Arizona?
A similar neck of the woods 100BJD!
Just shows you how easy it was for the delightful Mr Green to get his facts wrong!
In fairness to Charles though, I’m sure he’s very familiar with Phoenix and wouldn’t make the same mistake.
Mr English IMO after Sat show has no credibility as a journalist. Quack quack analogy and then the old chestnut Celtic want Sevco back for financial benefits. With the prospect of CL football a real possibility for the next few years (and the new BT CL deal in the pipe line) how can he make such a statement, shame on you Tom. We all know what sells papers and we know who is in charge of media so we should not really be surprised at the sales pitch. Maybe all journalists are Keith Jackson with a couple of exceptions.
The pundits just ridicule the (oh we are fed up of the same club new club argument, what difference does it mean). It means everything and we will not get fed up in our quest to prove it.
So Sevco 5088 now and forever in my eyes.
I definitely get the feeling that things are coming to the boil regarding Sevco. (Lobster FC, anyone? Get into hot water and wake up dead? No? Och, anyway..)
When things get too complex for me as they can do here, I find it helpful to remind myself that there are really two scandals intertwined here. The main one for me as a Scottish football supporter is the SFA’s disgraceful pandering and changing of the rules to suit a miscreant club. If the SFA had done their job properly, then the secondary scandal of the flagrant disregard of their rules by Rangers over twenty years would have been dealt with years ago. It is even conceivable that the old Rangers would still be active and challenging for SPL titles, but with far lower European ambitions.
When I separate the two, things become a little clearer for me. It means I can have some sympathy for the Rangers support who have been badly let down by McCoist and Smith who they look to for guidance. Green played these two beautifully. He recognised that they had no clue to the finer details of the business world, and tied them in knots and used them to get the hordes onside when he needed them. I do feel a little sorry for the fans who must be thinking “but, but, but…he said ..” and their world makes no sense. My sympathy falters when they fall back into their public face of supremacy. But I know deep down they are but frightened children.
Keith Jackson’s routinely abject performance on Saturday’s Sportsound screamed of this when he almost blubbed “Stop talking about this!” like a child hearing their parents discuss divorce.
The other thought that occurred to me from listening to Tom English’s take on the Lawwell joke on the podcast was, when did it become acceptable journalism to say “what he was thinking when he said that was….” Surely he’s paid to go and speak to the individual and get him to actually SAY what he’s thinking for the avoidance of doubt?
On 6th May 2011,who said this?
“plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose”
Dear @TomEnglishSport
By your own admission you weren’t exposed to this growing up, and your career path meant you missed most of David Murray era.
This guy was an out and out cheat, a proven tax evader (via the guilty verdict on Discounted option scheme) and roundly condemned by Nimmo Smith for deceiving the SFA and the SPL.
He was also feted by the media, not least by your fellow panelist Keith Jackson and his newspaper, who took every opportunity to parody Celtic under Fergus McCann. This editorial and journalistic stance was pushed for by Jack Irvine, with a number of newspapers shamefully in full co-operation.
Personally I couldn’t care less about the new club / old club argument, although i would like to see the evidence from the SFA and UEFA that you and KJ claimed was there. I have never seen it, and nobody I know has ever seen it.
What I do think is the main contributory sense of grievance is that Murray , who regularly made comments about Celtic that were considerably more damaging than Peter Lawell’s innocuous remark at the AGM, has never been brought to account.
This is a man who expended considerable energy and large amounts of other peoples money to try and do significant harm to Celtic. I fully accept you and a small number of your colleagues have been rightly critical of the damage he did to Rangers. Credit for that. In terms of achieving balance a full article by you criticizing Peter Lawell’s comments would need War and Peace to be written about David Murray’s poisonous effect on Scottish football.
Taking the attitude that Murray is yesterdays man ( which he is) and a busted flush ( which the MIH balance sheet confirms) is not good enough. If Peter Lawell is to be the subject of a full article and 20 minutes of live radio criticism for a fairly flippant remark, can you understand why Celtic supporters and other clubs supporters are frustrated when Murray is mainly criticised only for selling to Whyte , by his succulent lamb followers, and criticised only for poor financial management of Rangers by others.
Where is the outrage that was directed at Peter Lawell, over a man ,who i repeat ,cheated deceived and is a proven tax evader.
Thats not obsession by Celtic supporters , its merely a desire to see proper standards implemented by the SFA.
Its not just Campbell Ogilvie who is compromised on Rangers issues, the SFA as an organisation is compromised in dealing with Murray as long as Ogilvie is President.
There is surely an article in that !
slimshady61 says: (300)
November 17, 2013 at 10:52 am
1) The BBC were warned by their legal experts last night not to wade into the RFC complaint as to do so would be to fly in the face of the truth
============================================
Slim, I assume you refer to the complaint they had about the Daily Record article?
Castofthousands
Class input!….oh for someone in the media to provide such lucid,sharp and incisive commentary…
unintended consequences of cover up actions by the authorities may well cause many times the pain and suffering than otherwise would have been visited upon themselves and Rangers had they done the right thing at the time ..
A stitch in time saves ……….poor souls..!
Regarding the ”club” statement on the Sevco/Rangers website
Will the complaint to the SFA about the so called ‘Joke’ arrive first thing Monday morning?
Rangers ”history” proves they told the best joke ever, and Sevco are still laughing about it
– for every fiver Celtic spend, we will spend Ten pounds (just not of our own money)