Good Morning,
A number of years ago I sat and watched while the late David Will, one time chairman of Brechin City, former President of the Scottish Football Association and Vice President of FIFA, peered over the upper rims of his glasses at the assembled board and management of St Johnstone Football Club and proceeded to brand them all as a “shower of thrawn buggers!”.
The reason for the tongue in cheek outburst from Scotland’s highest ranking official from the world of football was the organisation of the centenary dinner celebrating 100 years of the Perth Club— which the club saw fit to hold well outside the centenary year. Will had been invited to speak as a guest at the dinner ( yes Mr Cosgrove I was there ), along with then manager Alex Totten and Craigie Veitch the former sports editor of the Scotsman.
For those who are not familiar with old Scots words, Thrawn can have a couple of meanings which are very similar. If someone is being obstinate, stubborn, uncompromising, perverse or intractable then in auld Scots we say that he or she is being thrawn. Equally, the original meaning has been said to be crooked, twisted, misshapen or deformed. A tree could be thrawn, as could someone’s arm or other part of the body. To be thrawn-leggit was to have a crooked leg.
These meanings then sort of morphed into meanings like difficult or contrary, and so twisted and crooked in that sense, and when David Will called St Johnstone a shower of “thrawn Buggers” he meant that they were being awkward, contrary and perverse in holding a centenary dinner when it wasn’t actually the centenary. He was of course being lighthearted.
That episode came to mind this week when I read the latest statements from Alastair Johnston and Charles Green. Both set out an argument which suits their individual purposes and adopted perspectives, and both perhaps chose to ignore counter argument or salient facts which would obviously derail their logic and train of thought. With the greatest of respect to both men— what a pair of thrawn buggers!!!
In that vein let me recap as to where I think we stand on this September morn in relation to the EBT debate, the question of “Club” and the Independent enquiry into payment outwith contract.
Clearly, all of these issues are closely linked but each stands in its own wee pocket or chapter, and when taken together they serve to make a whole book or paint an overall scene.
The EBT issue has been repeatedly explained on the RTC blog and elsewhere but at the risk of repeating what is already known the fundamentals are as follows:
Employee Benefits Trusts under certain circumstances are or were a perfectly legal business and accounting tool.
However, in order for the trusts to provide substantial tax advantages, any reward, remuneration or compensation they provide to a beneficiary must not form part of their contract of employment or work package. If this rule is not strictly adhered to, then tax is payable on the sums “given” to the employee, with the employer being liable for tax and national insurance contributions of any employee.
It is alleged by HMRC, that a number of persons who were at one time employed by Rangers PLC have received benefits by way of a specific EBT. Further, the benefits which these employees received were clearly related to their contracts of employment and so these payments are liable to tax, together with interest for late payment and penalties for non-declaration and so on.
This is denied by Rangers PLC and by Murray International Holdings, and MIH have instigated and conducted an appeal against the HMRC view, with that appeal being determined by an independent tax tribunal (The FTT). The basis of their argument appears to be that the benefits received by the beneficiaries were nothing to do with MIH or Rangers and that these payments were purely discretionary and at the instance of the trustees of the trusts concerned– none of whom have any connection with Rangers PLC or MIH. Therefore– there is no tax payable.
Against this there seems to be a plethora of evidence which contradicts this stance including a number of side letters or second contracts which show that any payments to these EBT’s were indeed contractual and part of an overall contract of employment “package”– and if that is deemed to be the case then tax, interest and penalties are indeed, and always were, due.
These contracts or side letters then seem to fly in the face of the documentation lodged with the SPL and later the SFA, as both bodies require sight of all contractual documentation relating to players remuneration and their terms and conditions of employment. Contracts have to be in standard form and lodged with the appropriate bodies to ensure that the player is in fact properly registered to play for the team.
Further, the rules of football prohibit any player being paid by a third party, and so payments made to a player by someone other than his employer is a breach of that rule.
It is this issue that the Nimmo Smith Tribunal is to investigate and rule upon.
For their part, Rangers PLC appear to argue that the existence of EBT’s were always declared in the notes of their accounts, and so the footballing authorities should have known that they were in use at the club. More recently, Alastair Johnston has stated that the club did receive a request for clarification from the SFA in 2011 to which the Rangers PLC board responded disclosing documents ( although he does not specify what documents ) over and above the normal documentation sent re player contracts. Johnston has gone on to state that there was no response or follow up whatsoever from the SFA, and the appropriate UEFA licence simply arrived in the post without further ado. He concludes that as a result of the documentation sent, the SFA must have known at that time that the EBT payments were being used for “player compensation” purposes.
Now, AJ argues that if any misdemeanour or breach of rules has occurred it does not merit the much discussed and publicised “stripping of titles” and that any failure on the part of the Rangers PLC board amounts to no more than an oversight or an administrative error which does not justify the ultimate penalty.
Let’s just pause there and remember who and what AJ actually is in life. Alastair Johnston holds the posts of vice-chairman and member of the board of directors of International Management Group, the leading international sports and entertainment group. Now everyone knows that IMG was formed by Mark McCormack and represents sports stars as their agent. However what is less well known is that the majority of IMG’s work comes from broadcasting – not necessarily mainstream broadcasting – but the broadcasting of certain events to mobile phones and so on and in this context the company works with the likes of Vodafone and other major service providers in the sector. Further the company has the rights to market and broadcast the sports activities of a huge number of schools and colleges in the US as well as music channels, entertainment and so on.
I raise this aspect for one very important reason.
That entire industry is based on one thing and one thing only and that is………… a Licensing system. Broadcasters of any sort obtain the rights to broadcast by way of a licence. They licence content, they licence by area and geographical location, they licence for set time periods,they share licences, sell licences, create licences and terminate licences. Without a licence, they can have all the technology in the world, all the necessary content and so on but they are not able to show it, sell it and profit from it. Proper licensing is vital!
Further, they are very precious about licences- and rightly so– because unless they have the licences tightly tied up, others in the same field can attempt to steal their content, their territory and their rights– all of which are valuable assets.
So go back again and look at all AJ’s comments about proper registration of contracts, about proper administration of documents and licence applications for players, UEFA competition and so against the background of him being a grand fromage in a major company whose absolute lifeblood depends upon proper licensing.
Do you remotely believe that the continual and prolonged inability to properly declare all relevent contracts and player documentation to a licensing body ( both SFA and SPL in this instance) can be merely an oversight or an administrative error?
Further, take a look at the accounts for Rangers PLC at least in the year ended 2005, where it is made very clear that the football management side of the business was working extremely closely with the board in all business and contract matters.
The SFA in particular fulfills a licencing function– a function which is so important that without passing the tests laid down, any club of no matter what size simply cannot play or participate in the sole sphere it is designed to participate and play in. There are strict rules about licences, and a duty on the SFA as well as Rangers PLC to make sure that all of the conditions that must be fulfilled in order to gain a licence have in fact been met. It is not a process that should be left to chance or a process that any major organisation would leave to a junior member of staff or without there being a company defined process and procedure to ensure that the applications and compliance issues are properly dealt with.
Further, if you think about how a footballer player signs for a club– the negotiations, the transfer fee, the personal terms, the contracts, the agents commission and so on, you will realise that a player signing and the terms of his contract – or contracts for that matter – cannot simply come about by accident and outwith the boards knowledge or consent.
In short, it is impossible. It is also impossible, in my respectful opinion, to proceed on a decade long process of administrative errors involving the repeated failure to disclose secondary contracts or side letters. As someone once said to me, there comes a point where a continued and continual series of repeated errors or omissions starts to look suspiciously like a plan!
However, if we were to take AJ’s comments at face value, and accept that there were repeated failures on the part of the Rangers Board by accident, then to be honest there would be every right for shareholders and investors to hold the Directors liable for such negligence. Directors regularly and properly insure themselves against such claims– so I wonder if AJ has paid his insurance premiums?
Further, if he as Chairman presided over such mismanagement, then no doubt his time at IMG is limited as I doubt such an organisation could afford to have such a dunderheid permanently ensconced in a senior managerial position.
However, AJ appears to be a positively straightforward chap when compared to Mr Green.
He of course is on record as saying that if the proposed CVA were to be rejected and the club forced into liquidation then the club dies, the history dies, and so on and so forth– but of course that was yesterday or the week before or even the week or months before that. That was the message that Mr Green wanted to convey at that time in the hope that HMRC would buckle down and accept the proposals.
Now, Mr Green seeks to sing a different tune, and recently latched on to Lord Nimmo Smith’s comments about the “club” being a continuing entity and capable of transfer from one owner to the next. He muses that if that is the case then the “club” may well in fact still be a member of the SPL and the SFA as no matter what happened to Rangers PLC, Rangers FC are ” a continuing entity” and therefore should not be forced to apply to rejoin any body which it was always a member of– such as the SPL and the SFA. Of course this then means that all the history and so on remains– despite what he himself said earlier!
Now of course, Charles makes for a good soundbite and is mad keen to ensure that as many Rangers fans as possible take up shares in “the club” when he offers them for sale.
Yet there is the problem,– shares in what are being offered for sale? According to Charles– and following his logic— he can offer as many shares in the Rangers Football Club Ltd for sale as he wants — but that company will not actually be Rangers FC– will it? If Rangers PLC was not actually Rangers FC– then what was it that David Murray was offering for sale all those years ago? Or could it be that Charles has just got it plain wrong?
You see for some reason he did not quote Lord Nimmo Smith in full– especially that part where the learned judge gave a brief description of his interpretation of the law of clubs.
For example Charles chooses not to comment on this sentence from the learned judge:
“This is not to say that a Club has legal personality, separate from and additional to the legal personality of its owner and operator. We are satisfied that it does not, and Mr McKenzie did not seek to argue otherwise. So a Club cannot, lacking legal personality, enter into a contract by itself. But it can be affected by the contractual obligations of its owner and operator.”
Earlier, Nimmo Smith said this:
“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time.”
So let’s pause there.
A club is an undertaking— in other words any type of loose arrangement involving a group of people with a common purpose. If a club is not an incorporated club ( a limited company ) then to be anything other than a loose idea of a few folk getting together for a common purpose such as a holiday or a meal or to read a book or anything else– then of course it should have a formal constitution and a set of rules for its members.
So– where is the constitution for Rangers Football Club? Where are its rules of admission which says who can join? Are there certain rules that preclude you from joining? Is there a set limit on how many members there can be at any one time? Who are the officers of this club?
At the current time, Mr Green seems to be very keen on everything British and everything of a loyal and royal nature. So here is a quote from the pages of the Royal Yachting Association of Great Britain on the legal status of unincorporated clubs and so on.
“Since an unincorporated club has no legal status, it is incapable itself of owning property or being party to a contract. It is therefore standard practice to appoint trustees, who are usually required in the rules to comply with committee instructions, to hold the property (whether freehold land and buildings, yachts or a long leasehold of a reservoir) on behalf of the club members.”
Eh going by that statement – Rangers FC never owned Ibrox or Murray Park– and indeed can never own Ibrox and Murray Park. Someone had to be the trustee.
Further, it can never have been granted a licence to play football— you can’t grant a right to a non legal entity or to a body which has no legal status. You cannot accept a licensing application from a body which has no legal status. You cannot be employed by a body with no legal status.
Rangers FC has no constitution, no legal persona, is not allowed to own property ( heritable, moveable or intellectual), can’t enter into contracts and so on.
In short, Rangers FC is a body with no legal status– it does not exist and has never existed— unless it is to be found within the confines of Rangers PLC which everyone now recognises is in Administration and will soon be liquidated.
Still don’t believe me?
Ok here is a recent release by the Scottish legal commission setting out changes that they want to make to the law so that “clubs” can gain some legal status:
“In Scotland, and indeed throughout the United Kingdom, unincorporated associations are not recognised as entities separate from their members. Consequently, such organisations cannot carry out acts such as entering into contracts, owning property or engaging employees. The lack of legal personality can also give rise to unfortunate, and perhaps unforeseen, repercussions for members. For example, it is possible that, under the current law, a member of an unincorporated association could, by virtue of that membership alone, find himself or herself personally liable in delict to a third party injured at an event organised by the association. Further difficulties relating to this area of the law are set out in our Discussion Paper on Unincorporated Associations (DP 140) which was published at the end of 2008.
Our Report recommends a simple regime, with the minimum of administrative burdens, to ensure that associations and clubs are recognised as legal entities. Separate legal personality will be accorded to associations which satisfy certain conditions. The main conditions are that the association has at least two members; that its objects do not include making a profit for its members; and that it has a constitution containing certain minimum specified provisions. These provisions are: the association’s name; its purpose; membership criteria; the procedure for the election or appointment of those managing it; the powers and duties of its office-bearers; the rules for distributing its assets if it is dissolved; and the procedure for amending its constitution. Many associations will already have constitutions which contain these provisions but, for those which do not, we anticipate that style constitutions will be made available, free of charge, on the websites of organisations such as the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations”
Maybe Charles should seek some advice from the Scottish Council on Voluntary organisations? And perhaps he should note that part about not making a profit for members too!
Then again, as Lord Nimmo Smith has said the actual status of a club and who or what a club is depends on individual circumstances. So with regard to Rangers, let’s look at who would know– for example, who did Charles get “Rangers” from? Duff and Phelps of course — so what do they say?
Well they have stuck to their guns because in each and every report that they have issued to the court, the shareholders and the creditors they have included the following definition:
| Rangers / the Company / the Club | The Rangers Football Club Plc (In Administration), Ibrox Stadium, Glasgow, G51 2XD (Company number SC004276); |
Now that doesn’t really help Charles does it.
Ok so, lets ignore Craig Whyte because everyone knows that he was a diddy— let’s go to folk that are far more sensible– how about the Board of Rangers PLC before Craig Whyte– what did they have to say:
Well, here is a statement from May 2011 which seems to set out who and what the then Directors thought amounted to the club– and let’s face it– they should know!
“Further to today’s statement from Wavetower Limited (“the acquirer”), the Independent Board Committee of The Rangers Football Club plc (“the club”), comprising Alastair Johnston, Martin Bain, John Greig, John McClelland and Donald McIntyre, (”IBC”) would like to make the following statement:
“In recent weeks the IBC has been engaged with the acquirer and has secured an enhanced financial commitment from Wavetower for future investment into the club. The decision on the sale and purchase of the majority shareholding in the club firmly and ultimately rests between Murray MHL Limited (“MHL”) and Lloyds Banking Group (“LBG”).
“Although the IBC has no power to block the transaction, following its enquiries, the IBC and Wavetower have differing views on the future revenue generation and cash requirements of the club and the IBC is concerned about a lack of clarity on how future cash requirements would be met, particularly any liability arising from the outstanding HMRC case.
“Wavetower is purchasing MHL’s 85% shareholding in the club for £1 and the club’s indebtedness with LBG is to be assigned to Wavetower. This share transaction would ordinarily trigger a requirement on Wavetower under Rule Nine of The Takeover Code for a mandatory offer to be made to the other shareholders.
“Given this transaction structure and following discussions with the Takeover Panel, the IBC considers there to be no purpose in the acquirer making such an offer to acquire all other shareholdings at effectively nil value per share. Accordingly the IBC has agreed that the offer period for the club will now end.
“In agreeing that no offer should be made to all shareholders the IBC has insisted that the acquirer issues a document to all shareholders setting out the full terms of the transaction, comprehensive details on the acquirer and the sources of its funding and giving firm commitments to agreed future investment in the club.
“The IBC is committed to ensure that the transaction and future investment and funding proposals should be transparent to all the shareholders and supporters of the club”
Ah— that doesn’t really help Charles Green’s current argument either does it?
So here we are, on the cusp of the FTT ruling, with a share offering in the offing, and SPL enquiry scheduled for November and no doubt Mark Daly and the Panorama team beavering away in the background getting ready for another documentary.
The decision of the FTT may reveal yet more of what the bold AJ describes as “Administrative errors” by way of failing to administer EBT’s properly so resulting in a massive tax bill, and the SPL enquiry may reveal further “Administrative errors” in failing to properly record player contracts for a decade, with the result that players were never properly registered in the first place and so were illegal players during championship winning games.
Yet all that is history and in the past.
Today’s Rangers has a new hero, a new commander– even though who he works for is a closely guarded secret and remains a mystery to most of us who may be interested to find out who Charles Green really is and who he represents. He seems to attack certain quarters then retreat, antagonise and appease, and has a habit of constantly contradicting himself when it suits.
In the interim he reminds me of the most famous creation of the American writer Timothy Zahn who brought about a revival in the fortunes of the Star Wars franchise, bringing it widespread attention for the first time in years. He did this by creating a new villain to follow in the footsteps of the administratively challenged and ultimately vanquished Darth Vader.
Zahn describes this new villain’s command style as considerably different from that of Darth Vader and other typical Imperial commanders; instead of punishing failure and dissent, he promotes creativity among his crew and accepts ideas from subordinates. He is a tactical genius who has made extensive study of military intelligence and art, and is willing to retreat instead of making a stand in a losing battle.
His full name and his true origins are only known to a few select individuals of the Empire and the New Republic.
To quote Wikipedia:
“His name is ………… reminiscent of the old Scots word meaning Twisted ot Crooked.
The character’s name is……….. Thrawn.
I suspect that we are about to see some pretty Thrawn statements from a shower of Thrawn buggers as the late David Will would have said!
For those that want something other than RFC/TRFC to discuss, how about this from Kevin Twaddle.
From the Daily Record: The former St Johnstone, Hearts and Motherwell star told of his shame after he cheated, lied and stole to fund his (gambling) addiction
“I know of three SPL players who lost a quarter of a million in one weekend in a syndicate recently.”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ex-spl-footballer-kevin-twaddle-reveals-1351602
Lord Wobbly says:
September 30, 2012 at 07:44
4 0 Rate This
Green’s inherent nonsense exposed…
http://m.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/tom-english-if-a-fan-offered-green-a-grand-to-move-ibrox-a-little-bit-to-the-left-he-d-get-the-movers-in-1-2555918
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Thanks M’lud. Unusually forthright. No doubt Mr English will incur the wrath of the great oversensitive masses for that piece. He may also have given them some extra fuel for their fire with this:
“If they want him [Green] to dynamite the SFA and the SFL then dynamite them he will attempt to do.”
More mock outrage coming up methinks.
140 😉
What are People’s thoughts on this week’s Radio Glasgow Online interview of Mr McBeth by the indefatigable Mr Tommy Gold?
To paraphrase, Mr McBeth clearly stated the current shenanigans would not have happened on his watch. The discourse then entered the arena of the FIFA / UEFA gravy train and tackling curruption which led to Mr McBeth getting off at the very next stop.
Why can’t the MSMStenographers go to such lengths as lifting the phone and asking such questions of those in the know 😮 ❓
Lord Wobbly says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:08
Did he / they invest in the sevconian fc 2012 ❓
droid says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:20
0 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:08
Did he / they invest in the sevconian fc 2012
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Green never did reveal his marks…er I mean backers…did he? 😉
Danish Pastry says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:09
2 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
September 30, 2012 at 07:44
4 0 Rate This
Green’s inherent nonsense exposed…
http://m.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/tom-english-if-a-fan-offered-green-a-grand-to-move-ibrox-a-little-bit-to-the-left-he-d-get-the-movers-in-1-2555918
—————
Thanks M’lud. Unusually forthright. No doubt Mr English will incur the wrath of the great oversensitive masses for that piece. He may also have given them some extra fuel for their fire with this:
“If they want him [Green] to dynamite the SFA and the SFL then
dynamite them he will attempt to do.”
More mock outrage coming up methinks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Charles has been fueling their (f)ire ever since he realised which particular wavelengths of the visible spectrum should be focused on. Ironically, Green wasn’t amongst them.
With the FTTT announcement imminent can someone please explain to me what this (if the decision goes against them) means for oldco and newco. Will it have any effect on newco? If newco are expecting all monies owed to oldco are they also willing to take on oldco’s debts, which seems fair to me.
Lord Wobbly says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:08
2 0 Rate This
For those that want something other than RFC/TRFC to discuss, how about this from Kevin Twaddle.
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Good for him. I never realized until recently that the dingy dens that passed for betting shops in Dennistoun were first made legal in 1961. I had only started Primary 1. By their squalid appearence they looked as though they’d always been there. I reckon they had a pretty devastating effect on many families. I’ve seen first hand how fathers, who barely had enough to feed and clothe their families, lost the weekly pay packet to those places.
Now the betting shops have glitzy prime-time tv spots. My son actually asked me recently why every second advert on UK tv (Sky) seemed to be for some kind of betting. He’s not far off. It’s very advanced spivery.
I have often wondered about the wisdom of sports betting on the whole given the amount of match fixing it spawns. It’s connected sport to organised crime.
From the Tom English article
============================
“Green’s inherent nonsense can be exposed in one of the statements he made to those fans in Northern Ireland. Namely, his vow that Rangers would never join the SPL on his watch. This, too, played well to the get-it-up-them mob, the group that have created such a siege mentality that if John “Bomber” Brown – remember him? – ever reappeared outside Ibrox on his soapbox and started asking questions about Green’s motives again, he wouldn’t have an audience. Green has hushed the doubters to such an extent that he can propose a future for Rangers that involves them staying out of the SPL for as long as he is around and to the faithful this sounds like an act of defiance to be applauded.
It’s not. It’s just proof that not enough people are asking questions about Green now.
Rangers will not enter the SPL as long as he is chief executive. OK, let’s think about that statement. It means that Rangers will never challenge Celtic’s supremacy while Green is at Ibrox. They will never attempt to sicken them by winning the title back off them. They will never attempt to make the Champions League. They will never attempt to get their hands on the many millions of pounds that entry into the Champions League provides. They will happily sit in a lower league and watch Celtic claim championship after championship and maybe fortune after fortune in Europe’s elite competition.
This is what Green is selling and plenty of fans seem to be buying it. Give him this much, Green is a hell of a salesman.”
==========================
Absolute tosh, and people are actually buying into this.
A lot has been made about the two contrasting sides of the Glasgow footballing coin.
‘Loyalists’ dothing their cap to the perceived authority, unquestioning and trusting it to do the right thing.
‘Rebels’ distrustful of authority, institutions and keen to get to the truth.
Harking back to my youth it’s hard to remember a time when rangers were not the domineering force in the SPL. By that I mean the reach they seemed to exert over sport in this country.
The positive puff from the press that surrounded the club was never ending. I think in this the MSM have driven down a culdesac. We have a generation of ‘fans’ of the rangers who have only ever known one narrative.
The gnashing, wailing and conspiracies the rangers fans now see, or are told to ‘see’ is a symptom of this generation long hubris. I have no doubt many simply cannot compute what has happened, is happening or may happen.
given the bubble they have inhabited and the soft reasuring superiority, fed through the media teat for the last 25 years, is this really any surprise?
Long Time Lurker says:
September 29, 2012 at 18:29
Was that the (famous) Tommy on “Your call” c18:26 – getting ripped into dual contracts – industrial scale cheating by RFC?
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tried to find this but unable to, anyone help out ???
1sarantseville , The bit you want is very close to the end.
It just went up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n0sx9
Readcelt
,given the bubble they have inhabited and the soft reasuring superiority, fed through the media teat for the last 25 years, is this really any surprise?’
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Try doubling the years and add ,say ten, and you will have a more accurate reflection of media bias in the west of Scotland toward TRFC..Some of us remember Peter Thomson at the BBC!
Correction, infact ever since approx. 1900
dear tom,
or charles just means he is not going to be here in three (or two years)
obviously he cant be lying. obviously.
ghirl1888 30 September 2012 at 11:16
If Ranger’s (Oldco) appeal against the big tax case (FTTT) is unsuccessful then Oldco will be liable for the tax bill (£60M?). Oldco are currently in administration and are rapidly heading toward liquidation so their ship is sunk already. Another £60M of debts won’t matter to them, it will just be written off with all the other debts when liquidation occurs. The effects of this on Newco aren’t entirely clear. It may not affect them at all but there may be consequences arising due to links between Oldco and Newco Rangers.
Some of these links include agreements made when Newco came into being. The Footballing authorities thought it appropriate that Newco should adhere to certain conditions in return for a brand new footballing company (clumbany) being allowed to play in their league. This includes certain finincial liabilities (money owed by Oldco to other football clubs), which it may have been felt were duty bound to be honoured.
Whether Newco can claim prize money gained by Oldco is currently at dispute between Newco and the footballing authorities.
The majot debts stay with Oldco but Newco may find that consequences arising from Oldco’s liquidation, hurried on by the failure in the appeal of the big tax case, may impact on Newco in many as yet unforseen ways.
1sarantseville , The bit you want is very close to the end.
It just went up:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01n0sx9
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The caller gets a bit shouty at the end but the panel move swiftly on to the next caller with no discussion on the subject.
I dont as a rule listen to this type of show.
Is that the usual course? Ignore it, dont discuss it and hope it will go away?
exiledcelt says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 05:13
“CG must think this is like shooting fish in a barrel – they are trying to see if they can get a yard and go a mile with the current Bears. How much more can they get before they cut and run. ”
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It may be more like CG is asking for a yard of trust and these particular bears are giving him mile after mile of it. As for shooting fish in a barrel, he’s amassed a trawler worth and he’s only been loading blanks.
droid says:
September 30, 2012 at 10:18
6 0 Rate This
What are People’s thoughts on this week’s Radio Glasgow Online interview of Mr McBeth by the indefatigable Mr Tommy Gold?
——
Has Tommy from Glasgow started a radio station? Is this it? http://glasgowradio.blogspot.dk/
Slightly chaotic, low-fi production. A more attractive website layout, better recording equipment/technique, and some basic audio-editing software skills would help him big time. Needn’t cost the earth Tommy!
With a better production (and an actual producer) he could actually use his celebrity phone-in ‘crackpot’ status to his advantage and perhaps grow his audience. There’s a lot to admire about his tenacity and dedication.
143 they are definitely trying to beat the duffers ‘let’s ignore the deadline’ record 😉
angus1983 says:
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 23:10
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Re your comments on the wee fans (real fans)…. a pity we’re only allowed 1 Thumbs Up wanted to give several thousand for that and for the obvious implication that the MSM and other hangers on to TRFC have no understanding about what really supporting a club is all about.
You could have also added something about why the dreaded ‘songbook’ and threatening behaviour by some bears form part of a glorious experience for the outlying communities … they certainly learned something about a certain kind of ‘support’.
But that’s me getting bitter so I’ll put it to one side and finish by congratulating you again on a well said commentary on real fans.
mullach says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 12:40
0 0 Rate This
ghirl1888 30 September 2012 at 11:16
If Ranger’s (Oldco) appeal against the big tax case (FTTT) is unsuccessful then Oldco will be liable for the tax bill (£60M?). Oldco are currently in administration and are rapidly heading toward liquidation so their ship is sunk already. Another £60M of debts won’t matter to them, it will just be written off with all the other debts when liquidation occurs. The effects of this on Newco aren’t entirely clear. It may not affect them at all but there may be consequences arising due to links between Oldco and Newco Rangers.
Some of these links include agreements made when Newco came into being. The Footballing authorities thought it appropriate that Newco should adhere to certain conditions in return for a brand new footballing company (clumbany) being allowed to play in their league. This includes certain finincial liabilities (money owed by Oldco to other football clubs), which it may have been felt were duty bound to be honoured.
Whether Newco can claim prize money gained by Oldco is currently at dispute between Newco and the footballing authorities.
The majot debts stay with Oldco but Newco may find that consequences arising from Oldco’s liquidation, hurried on by the failure in the appeal of the big tax case, may impact on Newco in many as yet unforseen ways.
—————————————————————————————–
Going back to old posts from RTC. I thought the point in pursuing liquidation was that HMRC could go after the beneficiaries of the scheme, i.e. SDM, Bain etc and the playing staff?
As such my take on this is still Newco have no liability as far as the outstanding tax liabilities of Oldco are concerned.
The only consequences of a crystalisation of the tax bill (Oldco found to have evaded the tax) will be a further ratcheting up of the charge of ‘industrial scale cheating’ leveled at Rangers.
As for Newco being in dispute with the SFA over Oldco’s prize money, are they really in dispute or is this just more piss and wind from CG in an attempt to muddy the waters, deflect and play to the gallery?
gie’s a gonk says:
Saturday, September 29, 2012 at 23:41
—————————————————-
To be fair, couldn’t it also be that they’d be a bit scared of allowing bets on such a subject …and not losing money scared.
Lord Wobbly says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 11:11
Charles has been fueling their (f)ire ever since he realised which particular wavelengths of the visible spectrum should be focused on. Ironically, Green wasn’t amongst them.
======================================================
That would be 1690 on the old MW!!!
I have ever quite bought into the premise that just because the Murray floatation bombed then any future floatation would necessarily bomb too, purely on the grounds that the situations are completely different. On the other hand, it is maybe a good pointer to the fact that they are not all that quick to put their hands in their pockets either. Having said that, I am very sceptical of this latest call for fans’ money as, surely, the time for the bears to dig deep was 6 months ago, before the attempts to achieve a CVA failled, while genuine Rangers men were doing their bit to save the club. Nobody, it seems, thought it worthwhile to try to put something together whereby the fans would buy shares in a company set up to buy Rangers, perhaps led by the Blue Knights or similar, to try to put a pot together that realistically had a chance of achieving a CVA, or, if that failed, buy the assets as Green has done and restart having at least made an effort to repay as much of the debt as possible while creating a better feeling for the club amongst the rest of football. It might not have worked, probably wouldn’t have, but still nobody thought it worthwhile.
Nobody in their right mind would trust a man like Green. He has no obvious track record of doing things for any other reason than making himself money, and I’ve yet to see anything that suggests he’s particularly good at that. The one thing we do know about him is that he left Sheffield United under a very dark cloud. We do know he is not particularly rich himself, and we also know we don’t know his alledged backers. His demeanour, his way of talking and public personality do not hint of honesty and trustworthiness. His public persona and statements hint at more of a Hitler than a Ghandi – prefering to incite the rabble rather than win over the crowd – Nixon rather than Washington – a man who sees the ability to lie as more useful than to be unable to tell a lie – in short, without knowing him personally, there is nothing about him to suggest he is anything other than a cheat, a lyer, a spiv. I’m not saying he is any of those things, just that that is how he comes across. So why on earth would anybody trust him with their cash? Why would anybody be prepared to even consider giving him 100s of pounds of their money, with no documented track record, no balance sheets and no recourse if things go wrong? I’ve just listened to the Blue Knights press conference, kindly provided by forweonlyknow, and, ignoring their actual words, the men involved came across as much more personable and believeable than Green ever could, so why didn’t they feel they could head up a new company funded by the fans? I suppose because, even though self-centred money men they may be, they are still miles more moral and decent than Green and would never stoop so low as to tap into the bile and hatered of the loyalist bogits. Oh what poetic justice it would be to see this vile element of Scottish football fleeced by a man called Green, because, as his money raising tactics are so patently aimed at the bogitted side of the Rangers’ psyche, only those of the most bogitted nature will lose out, and perhaps, at last, the next reincarnation of RFC would do it’s best to rid itself of this stain on Scottish football!
Agrajag says:
Sunday, September 30th 2012 at 11:32
Absolute tosh, and some people are actually buying into this
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Absolute tosh, and some peepil are actually buying into this
There, fixed that for you Agrajag…
Jmaclure / davis58 / oldgold
========================
Irrelevant.
Ok so we are irrelevant, does that not show you guys in your true colours?
Ok Still don’t believe me? as stated by BRTH, well until you tell me your credentials I have to favour Lord Nimmo, He has come to a different interpretation too you, I cannot as a layman differentiate between your two interpretations, but are you a judge?
allyjambo says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:02
3 0 Rate This
———-
No punches pulled in that post allyjambo.
Your poetic justice appeals, but seems further off than ever. He appears to be treading a far more dangerous course now than anyone ever imagined. The Tom English’ bluer than blue is fast becoming garish orange.
Ok so you have decided to not have Rangers fans on this site, that is your decision, but you will have no credibility. The fact you hunt in wolfpaks against those that disagree with you, means unfortunately you are susceptible to trolls, your paranoia makes the site untenable.
davis58…
you are not even trying to further the discussion, it’s all whitabootery, whatifs, smoke and mirrors and ya boo sucks!
If you engaged you would be much more welcome.
Even when self evident truths which are in the public domain are put to you, you pretend(?) not to understand…
This site is better than that
Danish Pastry says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:30
0 1 i
Rate This
allyjambo says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:02
3 0 Rate This
———-
No punches pulled in that post allyjambo.
Your poetic justice appeals, but seems further off than ever. He appears to be treading a far more dangerous course now than anyone ever imagined. The Tom English’ bluer than blue is fast becoming garish orange
__________________________________________________________________
I ended up writing a lot more than I intended to, DP. I’d set out just trying to point out that I found it strange that Green appeared to have more chance of raising a huge amount of money from the fans than some other, more credible, people had. It then just ended up as my usual rather pedantic rambling lol
My poetic justice would be the loss of money by bogits, through their bogitry. I’m afraid my hopes for a bogit-free Rangers matches my hopes for a conflict free world! The first quite possible I think (though they’d never realise it was their bogitry that caused their loss and prefer to blame a Celtic conspiracy) while the latter will always, I’m afraid, remain in the realms of hope 🙁
What’s the odds davis58 writes on here again? though perhaps as a newco davis58!
davis58 says:
Ok so you have decided to not have Rangers fans on this site, that is your decision, but you will have no credibility. The fact you hunt in wolfpaks against those that disagree with you, means unfortunately you are susceptible to trolls, your paranoia makes the site untenable.
========================================================================
I would really guys like you to stay, just so I can begin to get my head around what you are thinking. I honestly would love to hear your views on Green, what he is saying, and how is different to Murray and Whyte, both of whom were also treated as hero’s by Rangers fans.
We are almost a year on from the first Mark Daly documentary, one that was rubbished by Whyte, one that saw threats of legal action against the BBC, that brought great cheers from Rangers fans and comments on how Whyte would fight the Rangers corner and is proving to be a great defender of Rangers FC. Who can forget the protest against BBC Scotland at Pacific Quay. And we know how the Whyte story ended.
And here, less than a year later, we have Green, saying similar things, and been applauded by the Rangers fans in the same way as Whyte was, almost the exact same words about defending the club and defending the fans, someone who will take no nonsense, and using words such as agendas and enemies.
I am honestly interested in hearing how you still fail to appreciate the danger that the club you claim to be a fan off is in and how you can just ignore the last 12/18 months as if they never happened.
Words such as ‘enemies’, ‘agendas’, ‘orange strips’, are used, and that is enough to follow him. Not so much Sevconian, but Pavlovian.
abigboydiditandranaway says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:48
davis58…
you are not even trying to further the discussion, it’s all whitabootery, whatifs, smoke and mirrors and ya boo sucks!
==========================================
Absolute nonsense I have tried to get your point of view but you have to understand we see the same data from different perspectives. The problem is that we cannot accept each others perspective unless we can produce irrefutable evidence and that is not the case here. So what happens we Rangers fans ask genuine questions, challenge evidence, try to engage but are rewarded by puerile nonsense from Celtic fans.
blantyreexile says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:01
An excellent summation of just how RFC fans could engage on here in a positive way, I’ve asked them before to make such points rather than to merely try to deflect.
Come on davis58, give it a go, explain to us why you think Green is a better bet than Murray or Whyte! I know it would be impossible for you to put up an argument that makes the Rangers’ EBT above board or can show how they didn’t register players incorrectly, so won’t ask you to do that, but you must have some reason for accepting Green while knowing, beyond any doubt, that your erstwhile faith in Murray and Whyte was incredibly misplaced.
davis58 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:39
0 4 Rate This
Ok so you have decided to not have Rangers fans on this site, that is your decision, but you will have no credibility. The fact you hunt in wolfpaks …
———–
I see what you did there. Make a few posts that you know everyone (including sensible Gers’ fans) will disagree with – then play the victim card. Some of us tried to stick up for you a few days ago. Oh well.
PS What is a wolfpak? Is it like a lurpak?
Danish Pastry says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:13
And we know how the Whyte story ended.
Do you, I don’t think it is even half way there, and as for spelling, you never made a typo?
You do not need to justify your actions, you guys were just playing along with me, just trying to get rangers fans to engage, when you really did not want that. My conclusion is that we are not welcome, and to think I stuck up for your site, Oh well.
Good night and Good Luck
davis58 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 13:26
Irrelevant.
Ok so we are irrelevant, does that not show you guys in your true colours?
Ok Still don’t believe me? as stated by BRTH, well until you tell me your credentials I have to favour Lord Nimmo, He has come to a different interpretation too you, I cannot as a layman differentiate between your two interpretations, but are you a judge?
—————————————————————————————————————————–
Davis,
I am happy to debate with any fan of Rangers (old or new) as to the correct legal position. I am a lawyer. I make no claim to have as strong a legal mind as Lord Nimmo Smith.
However, I would suggest that his Lordships views on the continued existence of “Rangers” as a club, as some kind of non legal entity, have, as with so many other things around this saga, been totally misrepresented.
Company law is very clear. The company that was Rangers is to be liquidated. It will, as far as the law is concerned, die. A new company, Sevco, has purchased the assets. It has aquired the trading name. Think Woolworths and you get the idea. The company that was Woolworths died. Another company came along and bought the name. It trades as an on line retailer only.
What his lordship was answering was the question as to why the SPL Commission could investigate wrong doing by “Rangers”. I would suggest that any Rangers fan who wants to understand the matter actually go back and read all of what he says. The thing that should jump out at you is the position adopted by the lawyer for newco Rangers. Their position was clear…Newco Rangers are NOT Rangers. Read that again. Charles Green’s own lawyers say Newco Rangers are NOT Rangers. They then go on to explain why that means the Commission has no jurisdiction.
His Lordship is, on my reading of the comments, happy to accept that newco is not “Rangers”. What he does explain is how, under SPL rules a “club” is not the same thing as “the company”.
What I find difficult to understand is that Rangers fans still seem to think that the SPL and the SFA have, in some way,”got it in” for the club. If the rules had been properly applied Rangers wouldn’t be playing anywhere. They don’t have three years accounts. They shouldn’t have been admitted to the 3rd division. Every rule in the book has been bent to get them in. If that is the actions of organisations out to get you then I am Charles Green…
Anyone got a link to the Rangers falling man thing?
This totally passed me by. (one of the benefits of living in England).
What was the offence caused?
As far as I was concerned the Mad Men opening sequence was a metaphor for losing control.
A dream where you feel you are tumbling only to wake up safe in your bed, or in the case of the Mad Men opening sequence, back in your office chair smoking a cigarette.
If the BBC employed a pastiche then the inference I would take was McCoist was loosing control of his team, or the situation he finds himself in.
At no point in the Mad Men sequence do you see Don Draper hitting the ground.
Did the BBC show this, or is this more piss and wind?
From Johan Cruyff ( in an interview with Tom English in today’s ‘Scotland on Sunday’:
“…( Cruyff says) …And now I have a question for you.What has happened to Rangers?…….I have read things.
I can’t say I know the full story but the news travelled around the world, for sure.I spend time in Mexico and the news was in Mexico.
This is so,so sad.People for their whole lives support this club and then some sort of idiot,whoever it is,ruins the whole thing.
They had great financial problems and they’re out of the top league. I know there is more to it, but it’s incredible. Who was in charge?
Not sports people, for sure.Not football people. it was business people……..One year ago they were up mthere battling to win things.A few years before, they were in a European final. Great supporters defending their club, but what is there to defend? There’s nothing left. So sad……….”.
——-
The myth that this is just another tale of football financial problems like those faced by other clubs seems to persist, at least in the land of Orange.
@ readcelt says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:31
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2in6GAJTU
davis58
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:01
“try to engage but are rewarded by puerile nonsense from Celtic fans”
Only Celtic fans?
Do you know who I support?
I’ll bet that if you ever played football all the goals you scored were deflections…
Davis – I said that the fans buying into CG are an irrelevance – so I will expand on it.
If your sister gets beaten up by her husband but won’t leave him or do anything about it – she becomes at some point an enabler.
In football terms, we tried to help RFC fans on RTC but were shot down by the bears as yet another weapon being used against them – even though 99% of the crap that CW said we were spouting turned out to not only be true but also the first palce that the issues were raised.
At this point with CG doing such a marvellous job, the Bears are buying it all big time.
They have not leanred – they are enabling the scam
They won’t listen to reason – instead they deem a tangerine away strip as a priority.
Why should I waste my time trying to warn them?
Why are you letting ti all happen to your club again?
Why should I waste my time when the first answer from the Bears is you are obsessed with our club, mind your own business.
I will take their lead – I will mind my own business – unless it affects Scottish football – which it will,
That is why I don’t care how many stupid people pay CG 500 quid – if you are so powerless that you canot or will not help them, why should I?
Possible refresher? – OK – Reviewing `new` / old info with a completely open perspective – May 2011
• Willing `Seller` [leave blank]
• Willing `Buyer` [leave blank] and a;
• `What` [leave blank] was being sold or sold & for how much and on what terms in May 2011
In fact, we can`t be precisely certain of any of those! – Going back to school on Take-Over / Insolvency; Even without CL income, adequate finance should have seen them get by – as in past years. CL GS income [~18m] gauges the max funding gap annually – and should have been factored in the take-over calcs. For the take-over to be serious `they` needed 20m pockets plus going forward – no doubt. Pretty obvious – but why wasn`t an impending ruination stopped or intercepted? Less than 10m might have saved the day. In June known `They` has / had a `debt` to TU to 25.4m to repay. It turned out 8m [3m after the first month and 5m after 4 months by September] In perspective did `they` `project` paying out the equivalent of extra over costs of 2m p/m in the close season? Note: 8m is equivalent to CL Group Stage Broadcasting Pool Rights – or 20% of income without CL. Was this an “accepted” projected signed off Business Plan or Spiv[s] on parade? After the May 2011 take-over `they` engage specialists who 4 weeks later present a formal update to HMRC on 13 June 2011 [DD April – 5.8] showing that working capital shortfalls would make them unable to trade in the medium term without third party or shareholder funding. “Unable to trade after a take-over”? Given that this was in preparation for months beforehand with legions of expensive lawyer’s accountant’s analysts’ projections and such and so forth the very idea that on – Day One – that there was not enough funding [10-20m gap] is not plausible. [In June 2011 they could [in reality] rustle up £200,000 for HMRC – DD April – 5.8] Logically could one or want to engineer such an unviable position? [Open Question] That position: Starkly, in May 2011; – in hardball was; – they would need to sell big squad players and – still – need to qualify for CL GSs at least – to break even – for three years
Something very amiss here in May 2011 – takes two to tango but was this an acid hose party?
Old ground I know but worth a reminder. Post May 2011 take-over – new funding was unexpectedly needed? No new funding came in [why?] and the `die was cast` as RTC poignantly put it. So; on the timeline which what`s intriguing me [really] is the 13 June 2011 Date [Report to HMRC]. – on 14 June – the MSM `exclusives` broke. But RTC had already been steadily working though the data and analysis available since March 2011 and CW + Co little foibles and MSM plants were not unknown. RTC had 30 blog posts up by May 11 2011 querying / challenging MSM fawning reportage on CW et al. Anyway 13 June looks like the MSM volte face light blue touch paper day. On 14 June – MSM Hounds loosed – Non – Billionaire status `discovered`. All very dodgy etc. [But all `culprits` then denied reportage was accurate then and since] – Huge PR campaigns underway through the duration [but in the next six months RTC hosted another 40 [Forty] considered posts – until the MSM reawakened by late Jan / Feb 2012 CW and Co were done and dusted `dupers` who go figure `duped` – but the damage was done by then – MSM claimed told you so – so there! – … err that was that in Feb 2012. PR / MSM distractions – distortions constant since then in the face of facts – In my view doing no fans or Scottish Football any good really – after this mass cumulative nonsense I`m even developing an empathy for decent bers after this farrago. And then June 2012 – Acquisition set-up is now under criminal investigation. Still keeping an open mind on PR / MSM role part `complicity and connivance` by these assorted horrid paid scribes in the take-over tale. But back to top – base fundamentals still not clear after 16 months? This is not normal. Seems a `free` PR / MSM in Scotland is a “non-credible entity with personality” and is part of the problem. MSM Scotland not ref`d in the Oxford Dictionary as such yet but fast tracking a new entry on evidence to date.
Katie says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:38
Thanks for that Katie, I can now see why McCoist is so up in arms about the falling man, it doesn’t look the least like him! In fact, I’d say McCall has more reason to be angry than him, as, even though his caricature looks quite like him, it makes him look much fatter than Ally. In fact, when you come to think about it, what’s Ally complaining about? If the falling man IS meant to be him, it’s incredibly flattering 😉
Come on davis58, give it a go, explain to us why you think Green is a better bet than Murray or Whyte! I know it would be impossible for you to put up an argument that makes the Rangers’ EBT above board or can show how they didn’t register players incorrectly, so won’t ask you to do that, but you must have some reason for accepting Green while knowing, beyond any doubt, that your erstwhile faith in Murray and Whyte was incredibly misplaced.
No one is saying Green is better than Murray/Whyte, what has happened is, you have young fans who think this man is the messiah, as Tom English said, you pay £1000 to move to the left, il take it” lol, we are not ALL stupid, the discussion in NI is not being reported properly, much more was discussed and answered, orange tops, playing in a NI youth set up, is the Q&A that someone thought to publish……..Edmiston House is o be bought for the new Rangers Shop. Not all Rangers fans are bogits……
davis58 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:29
Danish Pastry says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:13
And we know how the Whyte story ended.
Do you, I don’t think it is even half way there, and as for spelling, you never made a typo?
You do not need to justify your actions, you guys were just playing along with me, just trying to get rangers fans to engage, when you really did not want that. My conclusion is that we are not welcome, and to think I stuck up for your site, Oh well.
Good night and Good Luck
**************
the irony being that Danish pastry is a RFC fan and one of the many posters that has been on here and on RTC for many months………..but who is not a troll, enjoys debates and reasoning – hence he is respected. You should try ti emulate him instead of attacking him as a non RFC fan 🙂
if you had more folks like him you would not be digging your own grave with the CG shovel……
dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:48
0 0 i Rate This
Come on davis58, give it a go, explain to us why you think Green is a better bet than Murray or Whyte! I know it would be impossible for you to put up an argument that makes the Rangers’ EBT above board or can show how they didn’t register players incorrectly, so won’t ask you to do that, but you must have some reason for accepting Green while knowing, beyond any doubt, that your erstwhile faith in Murray and Whyte was incredibly misplaced.
No one is saying Green is better than Murray/Whyte, what has happened is, you have young fans who think this man is the messiah, as Tom English said, you pay £1000 to move to the left, il take it” lol, we are not ALL stupid, the discussion in NI is not being reported properly, much more was discussed and answered, orange tops, playing in a NI youth set up, is the Q&A that someone thought to publish……..Edmiston House is o be bought for the new Rangers Shop. Not all Rangers fans are bogits……
___________________________________________________________________
See Davis58, here is someone actually engaging in debate. We might not agree with what he is saying, we might not agree with some of what he says, we might agree entirely with what he says, but regardless, he is worth debating with. So I will debate with him:
dl2068, What a load of rubbish…..
Only joking, honest 🙂
Question for Rangers fans if any want to answer.
Would you really be content to stay out of the SPL and decline the opportunity to make a lot more money, develop the team, win the top Scottish football league and have a chance to compete in the Champions League, the World’s premier football competition.
Really.
Agrajag says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:00
0 0 Rate This
Question for Rangers fans if any want to answer.
Would you really be content to stay out of the SPL and decline the opportunity to make a lot more money, develop the team, win the top Scottish football league and have a chance to compete in the Champions League, the World’s premier football competition.
Really.
Lol, don’t be stupid, SPL will be dead by the time we get back up lol
john clarke says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:34
From Johan Cruyff ( in an interview with Tom English in today’s ‘Scotland on Sunday’:
“…( Cruyff says) …And now I have a question for you.What has happened to Rangers?…….I have read things……..One year ago they were up mthere battling to win things.A few years before, they were in a European final. Great supporters defending their club, but what is there to defend? There’s nothing left. So sad……….
=========================================
I can only conclude that Cruyff wasn’t on the streets of Manchester on the day of that European Final, observing these “great supporters defending their club”. Well unfortunately for me I was, Johann, though only briefly, and believe me my stay couldn’t be brief enough. That was a new experience for me- the first time in my life I have been ashamed to be Scottish, ashamed to go for a pint on my way back to the station because of my accent, just deeply, deeply ashamed.
A few days ago, I took the trouble to ask other posters to cut Davis58 a bit of slack. Why did I bother? I wasn’t cut any slack on FF a few months ago when I tried to correct some factual inaccuracies. I was moderated off. Very rapidly. What can you say to people who are in total denial? They don’t want to listen, so what purpose does any conversation serve with people like that?
Which is why I truly hope that Green’s £500 share scam is a huge success. Take their money, Charlie boy, fill your boots, go large. But just make sure to have that private jet to Monaco sitting on the tarmac at Glasgow airport with its engines running on the day it dawns on the Vanguard Bears that they’ve been suckered (yet again!). Hell mend them.
another question for Rangers fans if any want to answer
Would you rather,
a) Rangers had made a wholehearted attempt to clear the massive debts they accrued with the associated consequences of being “uncompetitive” until said debts were manageable?
b) Liquidated, due to being unable to do the above and reformed as a bogit free club with all the real consequences which would have followed i.e. starting as a new club outside the SFL ranks with a long term plan to re-enter senior football at the earliest possible opportunity?
or
c) Followed their current path?
I know which one I would prefer my club to do…
Proud history…Bah!
dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:48
0 0 i Rate This
Come on davis58, give it a go, explain to us why you think Green is a better bet than Murray or Whyte! I know it would be impossible for you to put up an argument that makes the Rangers’ EBT above board or can show how they didn’t register players incorrectly, so won’t ask you to do that, but you must have some reason for accepting Green while knowing, beyond any doubt, that your erstwhile faith in Murray and Whyte was incredibly misplaced.
No one is saying Green is better than Murray/Whyte, what has happened is, you have young fans who think this man is the messiah, as Tom English said, you pay £1000 to move to the left, il take it” lol, we are not ALL stupid, the discussion in NI is not being reported properly, much more was discussed and answered, orange tops, playing in a NI youth set up, is the Q&A that someone thought to publish……..Edmiston House is o be bought for the new Rangers Shop. Not all Rangers fans are bogits……
____________________________________________________________
I’m sure not ALL Rangers fans are stupid, nor are they all bogits, but for Green to succeed there has to be a hell of a lot of both the stupid and bogitted! I’m sure, too, that while many who are following Green are young and impressionable, there are a great many older, but not wiser, who also see him as their saviour. Reporting of selected quotes is very common, especially within the MSM, and is something we just have to live with. It is unfortunate, though, that Green has chosen to go down the rabble rousing route and it is to Rangers discredit that many are following his loyalist/orange call to promote his share sale. I’m sure you’ll agree that there are much more burning questions to be asked, and answered, than the colour of tops or will you play in the NI Milk Cup (why on earth would they do that?) such as where are the millions you promised? why do you need to raise money from the fans while there is a signing embargo? Why, with all the other problems we have, are you spending money on Edmiston House as there are no season ticket sales for nearly a year and why go for a grandiose shop when it’s cheaper and more convenient to sell online, at least until things get better? In truth, these questions shouldn’t need asking, Green should be volunteering the answers, and much more, if he is indeed above board. Anyway, thanks for showing others the proper way to enter the debate!
dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:48
Come on davis58, give it a go, explain to us why you think …
————
Yes davis58, some of us are originally from the blue side of Glasgow. Now instead of turning up and lobbing in a few outraged comments about how anti-Rangers everyone is, why not respond to those who’ve taken the time to answer you thoughtfully.
At the moment your purpose appears to be to derail the blog for a few pages. Please prove me wrong.
And yees, I mak loots uf typoos … sometymes typoos arr foony 🙂
abigboydiditandranaway says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:18
2 0 Rate This
another question for Rangers fans if any want to answer
Would you rather,
a) Rangers had made a wholehearted attempt to clear the massive debts they accrued with the associated consequences of being “uncompetitive” until said debts were manageable?
b) Liquidated, due to being unable to do the above and reformed as a bogit free club with all the real consequences which would have followed i.e. starting as a new club outside the SFL ranks with a long term plan to re-enter senior football at the earliest possible opportunity?
or
c) Followed their current path?
I know which one I would prefer my club to do…
Proud history…Bah!
a)
dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:48
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I would certainly agree that not all RFC fans are bogits but the number of fans who claim to have bought their first season ticket for 20 odd years would seem to indicate that a return to the signing policy of pre 1989 would not go amiss. The songbook has certainly taken a turn for the worse in recent times, even if this particular curiosity has been overlooked by the SFA.
allyjambo says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:21
Agree with everything you say, but, it won’t be the RST who dictate the share debate.
tomtomaswell says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:59
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dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 14:48
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I would certainly agree that not all RFC fans are bogits but the number of fans who claim to have bought their first season ticket for 20 odd years would seem to indicate that a return to the signing policy of pre 1989 would not go amiss. The songbook has certainly taken a turn for the worse in recent times, even if this particular curiosity has been overlooked by the SFA.
Songbook has got better at Ibrox, I have witnessed this with more family attending, away matches! I believe we are all got our numpties who can’t help themselves when they have a day away from the family.
dl2068 says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:54
abigboydiditandranaway says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:18
2 0 Rate This
another question for Rangers fans if any want to answer
Would you rather,
a) Rangers had made a wholehearted attempt to clear the massive debts they accrued with the associated consequences of being “uncompetitive” until said debts were manageable?
b) Liquidated, due to being unable to do the above and reformed as a bogit free club with all the real consequences which would have followed i.e. starting as a new club outside the SFL ranks with a long term plan to re-enter senior football at the earliest possible opportunity?
or
c) Followed their current path?
I know which one I would prefer my club to do…
Proud history…Bah!
a)
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And there is the rub. As I posted last night, had the Murray etc sold a few players and accepted mid table mediocrity, they could have paid their ongoing bills and tax liabilities, and paid down some of their debt. No need to sell to Whyte. Even having sold to Whyte, he could have done the same. Either way, we would be sitting here today with Rangers still in the SPL, no administration, no liquidation, nothing to see here…at least until the FTTT decision hits.
So when having a look for the villians of the piece, who caused this debacle, who is responsible for the demise of your once great club, look to Ibrox boardroom. No where else.
Agrajag says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 15:00
Question for Rangers fans if any want to answer.
Would you really be content to stay out of the SPL and decline the opportunity to make a lot more money, develop the team, win the top Scottish football league and have a chance to compete in the Champions League, the World’s premier football competition.
Really.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Of course not, I want to see Rangers get back in the SPL and get back to the Champions League.
But, I want us to play our way back not be rushed into another set up because of finance.
I think back to Celtic being rescued by Fergus McCann, I was delighted, I did not want to lose Rangers v Celtic, the greatest adrenalin rush in Scottish Football.
I think back to Wallace Mercer trying to take over Hibs, I was delighted he failed, I wanted to see two of Scotlands biggest clubs survive for the sake of competition.
It pains me to say it, but I don’t see the same thoughts on our situation, in fact, some want us gone forever.
Yes, I know we have left bills unpaid and we have tax issues to be dealt with, but people seem to forget it is 10 years or so out of 140 years existence. Why should the authorities see that to lose such a club as Rangers with their vast support will do more harm than good for Scottish Football?
Punish Whyte and Murray, but let us get on with supporting our club and watching football.
davis58
I am curious about the RFC supporter and their use of the internet blogs. I wonder how many individuals actually post/lurk on these sites. How many visit TSFM to find some reasoned debate, and hopefully some truth on their current situation. Conversely, how many visit RM, FF and other dedicated RFC blogs where rational intelligent discussion is somewhat discouraged in favour of blind allegiance to the obscenity loudest with the highest post count? I would suspect the numbers on both are rather small compared with the overall mainstream fan base. Regrettably, that suggests the vast majority of ordinary RFC fans still rely on the MSM for their day to day information. The quality of that source has been shown to be lamentably poor with its regurgitated sound bites. I believe that the majority of RFC fans have little or no idea of the dangers their club is facing. It’s going to be an unlooked for shock to the majority, when TRFC stagger over the next looming cliff face.
BRTH
I might be too late but a quick check of the KdS archives notes Edmiston House being up for sale
as far back as 11 Sep 2011.
The facts of this case make perspective irrelevant. Murrays rangers evaded Tax, Made no Provision to pay it, rendering rangers unsellable(to anyone Not Part of a Plan) and unsavable. In the instant he began using ebts for contractual payments he created a false reality that can only be corrected By the stripping of any honours won during that period. There can be no counter arguement to the rules of the game that rangers signed up to.3-0 defeats in every competitive Match they fielded an illegally registered player. Whyte and green are murrays men, and murray is still pulling the strings, bdo Will get to the bottom of it, if Lord hodge doesn’t First.
scottyjimbo says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 16:30
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davis58
I am curious about the RFC supporter and their use of the internet blogs. I wonder how many individuals actually post/lurk on these sites. How many visit TSFM to find some reasoned debate, and hopefully some truth on their current situation. Conversely, how many visit RM, FF and other dedicated RFC blogs where rational intelligent discussion is somewhat discouraged in favour of blind allegiance to the obscenity loudest with the highest post count? I would suspect the numbers on both are rather small compared with the overall mainstream fan base. Regrettably, that suggests the vast majority of ordinary RFC fans still rely on the MSM for their day to day information. The quality of that source has been shown to be lamentably poor with its regurgitated sound bites. I believe that the majority of RFC fans have little or no idea of the dangers their club is facing. It’s going to be an unlooked for shock to the majority, when TRFC stagger over the next looming cliff face.
Very good point there, if we admit looking at RTC on FF,RM you get all sorts of abuse, but, I remember bringing this up on Gersnet and we agreed that RTC was where most facts were to be found. Only downside on here, and its not a lot, you can get some trying to brag, laugh at our predicament and then it’s time to just read and not post or reply. One thing I do notice with RM is when the subject is relevant , you do see a lot of guests reading, and I, don’t believe they are all rival supporters, you have a really good percentage of RM readers do not post, because of the bullying and taig accusations if it doesn’t go with the groundswell of opinion, everybody should be allowed to have say in any public blog, though, my personal experience, is, FF is the worst if you don’t pander to Jaffa’s agenda.
final report to creditors is up
Edmiston House was apparently bought with profit from Rangers’ Pools. When Murray arrived he flogged it to one of his own companies (RHL or PPG?) It might even have been for a pound – but I can’t pin that down at the moment.
RIP Corsica.
I am not sure if davis58 is trolling, not grasping the situation or in denial as I am not a psychologist. I am also not a “finance man” so I cannot grasp some of the technical jargon that goes with that territory. However I have read enough on here and RTC to get the basic outline of the whole saga. Many a learned contributor has put the financial side of things into “average bloke” language for me to get a great understanding of both sides of the story.
It does not look good for those of the blue persuasion. Not one bit. Nothing has gone well for them so far and that does not look like changing any time soon. Cleary davis58 and other TRFC fans are hurting (I would be if it was my team) and maybe this is the reason for his dummy spitting posts of late.
I work with many TRFC fans, some are my superiors and I have a tremendous professional respect for them. Great analytical minds who constantly find solutions to on-going problems and many a time their logical solutions and pertinent questioning can sometimes invoke the odd jealous “wish I’d thought of that” impulse in me. But the minute the on-going saga is brought into any conversation these seemingly clever people “zone out”. It’s as if they have an inbuilt switch that trips and disengages the logical and analytical part of their brain.
“You’re all against us” “The SPL will die without us” ” Financial Armageddon coming” “we’ve been punished enough” “you’ll never strip titles” “we won it on the park” “it’s a Timmy conspiracy”
“Rangers then, rangers now rangers……” and so on. They just will not tolerate any type of debate. They will shout over people to drown out their point. They do not and will not listen to details of the available facts.
The point I am trying so badly to make is that you can never convince davis58 and the vast majority of TRFC to change their viewpoint. We can all hope that there are a sizeable number of Danish pastry’s but the reality is there is not and no amount of evidence is going to change it. They will go to their graves with the same mind-set.
It is so very confusing.
twopanda says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 16:42
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final report to creditors is up
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Can you post a link?
link
http://www.rangers.co.uk/images/staticcontent/documents/administratorsinformation/RFC_2012_PLC_(Formerly_The_Rangers_Football_Club_plc)_Final_Progress_Report_to_Creditors.pdf
two complex for me – on the trfc website – looks like bdo in a couple of weeks
jmaclure says:
Sunday, September 30, 2012 at 16:21
Why should the authorities see that to lose such a club as Rangers with their vast support will do more harm than good for Scottish Football?
Punish Whyte and Murray, but let us get on with supporting our club and watching football
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They did, they have. They tried to shoe horn you back in to the SPL, and then Division one, against every rule in book. They tried to cajole, they tried to blackmail, they threatened. They did everything they could.
Indeed, you shouldn’t even be in division 3. Once the CVA was refused (and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs were always gone to refuse) the only way any form of Rangers would have been in any league was if they did, for want of a better description, an Airdrie; buy a club that still exists (Airdrie bought Clydebank) and rename it.
Rangers didn’t do that so they shouldn’t be playing anywhere…they don’t have the necessary 3 year accounts to gain league membership.
So the SFA and SFL have bent all the rules to get Rangers in to a league.
The sooner Rangers fans get their head round that fact, the sooner you can move on a start trying to fix the major fiancial problems you still face.
http://www.rangers.co.uk/images/staticcontent/documents/administratorsinformation/RFC_2012_PLC_(Formerly_The_Rangers_Football_Club_plc)_Final_Progress_Report_to_Creditors.pdf
wolvibhoy says:
Angry, hurt, embarrassed , correct, Angry that Murray would get something soo wrong, when, he didn’t need to resort to the path he took, cut cloth to suit should have been the way ahead. Angry, he sold to a spiv, when Johnston warned him off, Angry, he said he was duped, man was never duped in his life, he was the guy who duped others. Hurt, that my team are where they are now, hurts at the jibes I take of work colleagues who can be very hurtful, where before it was good banter, now, I’m afraid some just like to rub it in a little more than others, Hurt, watching my team play at Ibrox in the SFL3, that really bloody hurts, and the Biggest hurt, NOT paying our debts , that is my Biggest hurt and embarrassment , that is NOT the Rangers way, we need to compete yes, but, I want all small debtors paid off and quickly, and, before the ones who like to rub it in comment, Tax money, JAIL THE PAIR OF THEM.
It seems the administrators are still using the same definition of what Rangers was.
http://s18.postimage.org/vwlpfo84p/The_Company_The_Club.gif
CB action sometime within October
Spat on UEFA money
TU `unenforceable`