Good Morning,
A number of years ago I sat and watched while the late David Will, one time chairman of Brechin City, former President of the Scottish Football Association and Vice President of FIFA, peered over the upper rims of his glasses at the assembled board and management of St Johnstone Football Club and proceeded to brand them all as a “shower of thrawn buggers!”.
The reason for the tongue in cheek outburst from Scotland’s highest ranking official from the world of football was the organisation of the centenary dinner celebrating 100 years of the Perth Club— which the club saw fit to hold well outside the centenary year. Will had been invited to speak as a guest at the dinner ( yes Mr Cosgrove I was there ), along with then manager Alex Totten and Craigie Veitch the former sports editor of the Scotsman.
For those who are not familiar with old Scots words, Thrawn can have a couple of meanings which are very similar. If someone is being obstinate, stubborn, uncompromising, perverse or intractable then in auld Scots we say that he or she is being thrawn. Equally, the original meaning has been said to be crooked, twisted, misshapen or deformed. A tree could be thrawn, as could someone’s arm or other part of the body. To be thrawn-leggit was to have a crooked leg.
These meanings then sort of morphed into meanings like difficult or contrary, and so twisted and crooked in that sense, and when David Will called St Johnstone a shower of “thrawn Buggers” he meant that they were being awkward, contrary and perverse in holding a centenary dinner when it wasn’t actually the centenary. He was of course being lighthearted.
That episode came to mind this week when I read the latest statements from Alastair Johnston and Charles Green. Both set out an argument which suits their individual purposes and adopted perspectives, and both perhaps chose to ignore counter argument or salient facts which would obviously derail their logic and train of thought. With the greatest of respect to both men— what a pair of thrawn buggers!!!
In that vein let me recap as to where I think we stand on this September morn in relation to the EBT debate, the question of “Club” and the Independent enquiry into payment outwith contract.
Clearly, all of these issues are closely linked but each stands in its own wee pocket or chapter, and when taken together they serve to make a whole book or paint an overall scene.
The EBT issue has been repeatedly explained on the RTC blog and elsewhere but at the risk of repeating what is already known the fundamentals are as follows:
Employee Benefits Trusts under certain circumstances are or were a perfectly legal business and accounting tool.
However, in order for the trusts to provide substantial tax advantages, any reward, remuneration or compensation they provide to a beneficiary must not form part of their contract of employment or work package. If this rule is not strictly adhered to, then tax is payable on the sums “given” to the employee, with the employer being liable for tax and national insurance contributions of any employee.
It is alleged by HMRC, that a number of persons who were at one time employed by Rangers PLC have received benefits by way of a specific EBT. Further, the benefits which these employees received were clearly related to their contracts of employment and so these payments are liable to tax, together with interest for late payment and penalties for non-declaration and so on.
This is denied by Rangers PLC and by Murray International Holdings, and MIH have instigated and conducted an appeal against the HMRC view, with that appeal being determined by an independent tax tribunal (The FTT). The basis of their argument appears to be that the benefits received by the beneficiaries were nothing to do with MIH or Rangers and that these payments were purely discretionary and at the instance of the trustees of the trusts concerned– none of whom have any connection with Rangers PLC or MIH. Therefore– there is no tax payable.
Against this there seems to be a plethora of evidence which contradicts this stance including a number of side letters or second contracts which show that any payments to these EBT’s were indeed contractual and part of an overall contract of employment “package”– and if that is deemed to be the case then tax, interest and penalties are indeed, and always were, due.
These contracts or side letters then seem to fly in the face of the documentation lodged with the SPL and later the SFA, as both bodies require sight of all contractual documentation relating to players remuneration and their terms and conditions of employment. Contracts have to be in standard form and lodged with the appropriate bodies to ensure that the player is in fact properly registered to play for the team.
Further, the rules of football prohibit any player being paid by a third party, and so payments made to a player by someone other than his employer is a breach of that rule.
It is this issue that the Nimmo Smith Tribunal is to investigate and rule upon.
For their part, Rangers PLC appear to argue that the existence of EBT’s were always declared in the notes of their accounts, and so the footballing authorities should have known that they were in use at the club. More recently, Alastair Johnston has stated that the club did receive a request for clarification from the SFA in 2011 to which the Rangers PLC board responded disclosing documents ( although he does not specify what documents ) over and above the normal documentation sent re player contracts. Johnston has gone on to state that there was no response or follow up whatsoever from the SFA, and the appropriate UEFA licence simply arrived in the post without further ado. He concludes that as a result of the documentation sent, the SFA must have known at that time that the EBT payments were being used for “player compensation” purposes.
Now, AJ argues that if any misdemeanour or breach of rules has occurred it does not merit the much discussed and publicised “stripping of titles” and that any failure on the part of the Rangers PLC board amounts to no more than an oversight or an administrative error which does not justify the ultimate penalty.
Let’s just pause there and remember who and what AJ actually is in life. Alastair Johnston holds the posts of vice-chairman and member of the board of directors of International Management Group, the leading international sports and entertainment group. Now everyone knows that IMG was formed by Mark McCormack and represents sports stars as their agent. However what is less well known is that the majority of IMG’s work comes from broadcasting – not necessarily mainstream broadcasting – but the broadcasting of certain events to mobile phones and so on and in this context the company works with the likes of Vodafone and other major service providers in the sector. Further the company has the rights to market and broadcast the sports activities of a huge number of schools and colleges in the US as well as music channels, entertainment and so on.
I raise this aspect for one very important reason.
That entire industry is based on one thing and one thing only and that is………… a Licensing system. Broadcasters of any sort obtain the rights to broadcast by way of a licence. They licence content, they licence by area and geographical location, they licence for set time periods,they share licences, sell licences, create licences and terminate licences. Without a licence, they can have all the technology in the world, all the necessary content and so on but they are not able to show it, sell it and profit from it. Proper licensing is vital!
Further, they are very precious about licences- and rightly so– because unless they have the licences tightly tied up, others in the same field can attempt to steal their content, their territory and their rights– all of which are valuable assets.
So go back again and look at all AJ’s comments about proper registration of contracts, about proper administration of documents and licence applications for players, UEFA competition and so against the background of him being a grand fromage in a major company whose absolute lifeblood depends upon proper licensing.
Do you remotely believe that the continual and prolonged inability to properly declare all relevent contracts and player documentation to a licensing body ( both SFA and SPL in this instance) can be merely an oversight or an administrative error?
Further, take a look at the accounts for Rangers PLC at least in the year ended 2005, where it is made very clear that the football management side of the business was working extremely closely with the board in all business and contract matters.
The SFA in particular fulfills a licencing function– a function which is so important that without passing the tests laid down, any club of no matter what size simply cannot play or participate in the sole sphere it is designed to participate and play in. There are strict rules about licences, and a duty on the SFA as well as Rangers PLC to make sure that all of the conditions that must be fulfilled in order to gain a licence have in fact been met. It is not a process that should be left to chance or a process that any major organisation would leave to a junior member of staff or without there being a company defined process and procedure to ensure that the applications and compliance issues are properly dealt with.
Further, if you think about how a footballer player signs for a club– the negotiations, the transfer fee, the personal terms, the contracts, the agents commission and so on, you will realise that a player signing and the terms of his contract – or contracts for that matter – cannot simply come about by accident and outwith the boards knowledge or consent.
In short, it is impossible. It is also impossible, in my respectful opinion, to proceed on a decade long process of administrative errors involving the repeated failure to disclose secondary contracts or side letters. As someone once said to me, there comes a point where a continued and continual series of repeated errors or omissions starts to look suspiciously like a plan!
However, if we were to take AJ’s comments at face value, and accept that there were repeated failures on the part of the Rangers Board by accident, then to be honest there would be every right for shareholders and investors to hold the Directors liable for such negligence. Directors regularly and properly insure themselves against such claims– so I wonder if AJ has paid his insurance premiums?
Further, if he as Chairman presided over such mismanagement, then no doubt his time at IMG is limited as I doubt such an organisation could afford to have such a dunderheid permanently ensconced in a senior managerial position.
However, AJ appears to be a positively straightforward chap when compared to Mr Green.
He of course is on record as saying that if the proposed CVA were to be rejected and the club forced into liquidation then the club dies, the history dies, and so on and so forth– but of course that was yesterday or the week before or even the week or months before that. That was the message that Mr Green wanted to convey at that time in the hope that HMRC would buckle down and accept the proposals.
Now, Mr Green seeks to sing a different tune, and recently latched on to Lord Nimmo Smith’s comments about the “club” being a continuing entity and capable of transfer from one owner to the next. He muses that if that is the case then the “club” may well in fact still be a member of the SPL and the SFA as no matter what happened to Rangers PLC, Rangers FC are ” a continuing entity” and therefore should not be forced to apply to rejoin any body which it was always a member of– such as the SPL and the SFA. Of course this then means that all the history and so on remains– despite what he himself said earlier!
Now of course, Charles makes for a good soundbite and is mad keen to ensure that as many Rangers fans as possible take up shares in “the club” when he offers them for sale.
Yet there is the problem,– shares in what are being offered for sale? According to Charles– and following his logic— he can offer as many shares in the Rangers Football Club Ltd for sale as he wants — but that company will not actually be Rangers FC– will it? If Rangers PLC was not actually Rangers FC– then what was it that David Murray was offering for sale all those years ago? Or could it be that Charles has just got it plain wrong?
You see for some reason he did not quote Lord Nimmo Smith in full– especially that part where the learned judge gave a brief description of his interpretation of the law of clubs.
For example Charles chooses not to comment on this sentence from the learned judge:
“This is not to say that a Club has legal personality, separate from and additional to the legal personality of its owner and operator. We are satisfied that it does not, and Mr McKenzie did not seek to argue otherwise. So a Club cannot, lacking legal personality, enter into a contract by itself. But it can be affected by the contractual obligations of its owner and operator.”
Earlier, Nimmo Smith said this:
“While it no doubt depends on individual circumstances what exactly is comprised in the undertaking of any particular Club, it would at the least comprise its name, the contracts with its players, its manager and other staff, and its ground, even though these may change from time to time.”
So let’s pause there.
A club is an undertaking— in other words any type of loose arrangement involving a group of people with a common purpose. If a club is not an incorporated club ( a limited company ) then to be anything other than a loose idea of a few folk getting together for a common purpose such as a holiday or a meal or to read a book or anything else– then of course it should have a formal constitution and a set of rules for its members.
So– where is the constitution for Rangers Football Club? Where are its rules of admission which says who can join? Are there certain rules that preclude you from joining? Is there a set limit on how many members there can be at any one time? Who are the officers of this club?
At the current time, Mr Green seems to be very keen on everything British and everything of a loyal and royal nature. So here is a quote from the pages of the Royal Yachting Association of Great Britain on the legal status of unincorporated clubs and so on.
“Since an unincorporated club has no legal status, it is incapable itself of owning property or being party to a contract. It is therefore standard practice to appoint trustees, who are usually required in the rules to comply with committee instructions, to hold the property (whether freehold land and buildings, yachts or a long leasehold of a reservoir) on behalf of the club members.”
Eh going by that statement – Rangers FC never owned Ibrox or Murray Park– and indeed can never own Ibrox and Murray Park. Someone had to be the trustee.
Further, it can never have been granted a licence to play football— you can’t grant a right to a non legal entity or to a body which has no legal status. You cannot accept a licensing application from a body which has no legal status. You cannot be employed by a body with no legal status.
Rangers FC has no constitution, no legal persona, is not allowed to own property ( heritable, moveable or intellectual), can’t enter into contracts and so on.
In short, Rangers FC is a body with no legal status– it does not exist and has never existed— unless it is to be found within the confines of Rangers PLC which everyone now recognises is in Administration and will soon be liquidated.
Still don’t believe me?
Ok here is a recent release by the Scottish legal commission setting out changes that they want to make to the law so that “clubs” can gain some legal status:
“In Scotland, and indeed throughout the United Kingdom, unincorporated associations are not recognised as entities separate from their members. Consequently, such organisations cannot carry out acts such as entering into contracts, owning property or engaging employees. The lack of legal personality can also give rise to unfortunate, and perhaps unforeseen, repercussions for members. For example, it is possible that, under the current law, a member of an unincorporated association could, by virtue of that membership alone, find himself or herself personally liable in delict to a third party injured at an event organised by the association. Further difficulties relating to this area of the law are set out in our Discussion Paper on Unincorporated Associations (DP 140) which was published at the end of 2008.
Our Report recommends a simple regime, with the minimum of administrative burdens, to ensure that associations and clubs are recognised as legal entities. Separate legal personality will be accorded to associations which satisfy certain conditions. The main conditions are that the association has at least two members; that its objects do not include making a profit for its members; and that it has a constitution containing certain minimum specified provisions. These provisions are: the association’s name; its purpose; membership criteria; the procedure for the election or appointment of those managing it; the powers and duties of its office-bearers; the rules for distributing its assets if it is dissolved; and the procedure for amending its constitution. Many associations will already have constitutions which contain these provisions but, for those which do not, we anticipate that style constitutions will be made available, free of charge, on the websites of organisations such as the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations”
Maybe Charles should seek some advice from the Scottish Council on Voluntary organisations? And perhaps he should note that part about not making a profit for members too!
Then again, as Lord Nimmo Smith has said the actual status of a club and who or what a club is depends on individual circumstances. So with regard to Rangers, let’s look at who would know– for example, who did Charles get “Rangers” from? Duff and Phelps of course — so what do they say?
Well they have stuck to their guns because in each and every report that they have issued to the court, the shareholders and the creditors they have included the following definition:
| Rangers / the Company / the Club | The Rangers Football Club Plc (In Administration), Ibrox Stadium, Glasgow, G51 2XD (Company number SC004276); |
Now that doesn’t really help Charles does it.
Ok so, lets ignore Craig Whyte because everyone knows that he was a diddy— let’s go to folk that are far more sensible– how about the Board of Rangers PLC before Craig Whyte– what did they have to say:
Well, here is a statement from May 2011 which seems to set out who and what the then Directors thought amounted to the club– and let’s face it– they should know!
“Further to today’s statement from Wavetower Limited (“the acquirer”), the Independent Board Committee of The Rangers Football Club plc (“the club”), comprising Alastair Johnston, Martin Bain, John Greig, John McClelland and Donald McIntyre, (”IBC”) would like to make the following statement:
“In recent weeks the IBC has been engaged with the acquirer and has secured an enhanced financial commitment from Wavetower for future investment into the club. The decision on the sale and purchase of the majority shareholding in the club firmly and ultimately rests between Murray MHL Limited (“MHL”) and Lloyds Banking Group (“LBG”).
“Although the IBC has no power to block the transaction, following its enquiries, the IBC and Wavetower have differing views on the future revenue generation and cash requirements of the club and the IBC is concerned about a lack of clarity on how future cash requirements would be met, particularly any liability arising from the outstanding HMRC case.
“Wavetower is purchasing MHL’s 85% shareholding in the club for £1 and the club’s indebtedness with LBG is to be assigned to Wavetower. This share transaction would ordinarily trigger a requirement on Wavetower under Rule Nine of The Takeover Code for a mandatory offer to be made to the other shareholders.
“Given this transaction structure and following discussions with the Takeover Panel, the IBC considers there to be no purpose in the acquirer making such an offer to acquire all other shareholdings at effectively nil value per share. Accordingly the IBC has agreed that the offer period for the club will now end.
“In agreeing that no offer should be made to all shareholders the IBC has insisted that the acquirer issues a document to all shareholders setting out the full terms of the transaction, comprehensive details on the acquirer and the sources of its funding and giving firm commitments to agreed future investment in the club.
“The IBC is committed to ensure that the transaction and future investment and funding proposals should be transparent to all the shareholders and supporters of the club”
Ah— that doesn’t really help Charles Green’s current argument either does it?
So here we are, on the cusp of the FTT ruling, with a share offering in the offing, and SPL enquiry scheduled for November and no doubt Mark Daly and the Panorama team beavering away in the background getting ready for another documentary.
The decision of the FTT may reveal yet more of what the bold AJ describes as “Administrative errors” by way of failing to administer EBT’s properly so resulting in a massive tax bill, and the SPL enquiry may reveal further “Administrative errors” in failing to properly record player contracts for a decade, with the result that players were never properly registered in the first place and so were illegal players during championship winning games.
Yet all that is history and in the past.
Today’s Rangers has a new hero, a new commander– even though who he works for is a closely guarded secret and remains a mystery to most of us who may be interested to find out who Charles Green really is and who he represents. He seems to attack certain quarters then retreat, antagonise and appease, and has a habit of constantly contradicting himself when it suits.
In the interim he reminds me of the most famous creation of the American writer Timothy Zahn who brought about a revival in the fortunes of the Star Wars franchise, bringing it widespread attention for the first time in years. He did this by creating a new villain to follow in the footsteps of the administratively challenged and ultimately vanquished Darth Vader.
Zahn describes this new villain’s command style as considerably different from that of Darth Vader and other typical Imperial commanders; instead of punishing failure and dissent, he promotes creativity among his crew and accepts ideas from subordinates. He is a tactical genius who has made extensive study of military intelligence and art, and is willing to retreat instead of making a stand in a losing battle.
His full name and his true origins are only known to a few select individuals of the Empire and the New Republic.
To quote Wikipedia:
“His name is ………… reminiscent of the old Scots word meaning Twisted ot Crooked.
The character’s name is……….. Thrawn.
I suspect that we are about to see some pretty Thrawn statements from a shower of Thrawn buggers as the late David Will would have said!
David Murray did nothing to pay either the small tax bill or large tax bill.
He made no contingencies to pay them either.
Had Rangers not paid it then HMRC would have moved for the company to be wound up.
Rangers have been moving towards liquidation for a good number of years. David Murray caused it.
I’m sorry, Murray gave Whyte the small tax case money, it is published somewhere( can’t remember) but Whyte used it for other matters.
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:54
Apologies in advance if this has been discussed in detail previously.
There are lot of posters here who are of the opinion that TRFC is already short of funding! I know that the CVA offer was £8.5m and Green eventually paid D&P £5.5m for assets. So I therefore assume circa £3m potentially in bank of TRFC before a ball is kicked.
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They could have said £18.5m for the CVA it made not one jot of difference it was never going to happen. So to assume that money was left sitting in a bank account is a massive leap of faith.
Absolutely superb post BRTH. Will have to read again in the morning when I’m sober!
dl2068
Have to disagree, RM is militant in it’s support of Green and get’s more extreme each passing day. Anyone who questions him is shot down, even respected posters with ‘high rep’ are wary of saying anything that would draw attention to themselves.
Lol, I do quite often, but are respected old yin, so, as earlier, yeah, look back and you can see all the Whyte lovers, ask them a serious question on Green, and you get the idiots, but the mature long time followers understand and will not be as daft as some believe on here.
dl2068 says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:59
David Murray did nothing to pay either the small tax bill or large tax bill.
He made no contingencies to pay them either.
Had Rangers not paid it then HMRC would have moved for the company to be wound up.
Rangers have been moving towards liquidation for a good number of years. David Murray caused it.
I’m sorry, Murray gave Whyte the small tax case money, it is published somewhere( can’t remember) but Whyte used it for other matters.
======================
Even if that were true, and I have never seen it, Where was the other £40m – £50m coming from.
Craig Whyte was brought in to be in charge when the ships hit the fan. It was going to happen whether he was there or not.
Had he not stolen £14m in PAYE and VAT during the season how would the club have operated (after having been knocked out of Europe).
Sorry, but Rangers had been going that way for a long time. They were spending at least £10m a year they could not afford, and not moving to cut those expenses.
OK Thumbs down person, why did you give me the thumbs down for an obviously humourous post? Have the B???s to reply at least?
bangordub says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:07
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OK Thumbs down person, why did you give me the thumbs down for an obviously humourous post? Have the B???s to reply at least?
Was me, didn’t find it humorous, sorry.
dl2068 says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:45
“We will not be conned, as for being sold down the river with our old shares, regrettable, angry , and that’s me being nice, at that twat Whyte ( hope he is jailed for a very long time) we wouldn’t be in this situation if Murray hadn’t sold to him…”
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So, had Murray not sold to Whyte, the following would have been the approximate chain of events:
1) HMRC would not have raised the assessments for the illegal use of EBTs – Correction this happened pre-Whyte
2) There would have been no scandal and delayed investigation into the dual contracts fiasco – Correction – this happened pre Whyte
3) LBG would have continued to bankroll RFC – Correction – they pulled the plug before Whyte
4) RFC would have gone on to win the CL – Correction – no you tell me…I need a laugh tonight!
5) RFC would now not only be “debt-free” but the wealthiest club in the world – Correction – tell me again!
I will have the courtesy to re-pose your original question/implication to you…”What would REALLY have happened if Murray had not sold to Whyte…?”
On a very sad night when we are all noting the sad passing of Corsica, the greatest outcome of all this nonsense would be the ultimate proof of his assertion that all the “associated/related” parties to the biggest scandal ever to arise in football in the UK, are still on the scene, and still acting “in concert”….viz. Murray…Whyte(Jnr)….Whyte(Snr)…Grier…Green(and unknown others).
Even if that were true, and I have never seen it, Where was the other £40m – £50m coming from.
Craig Whyte was brought in to be in charge when the ships hit the fan. It was going to happen whether he was there or not.
Had he not stolen £14m in PAYE and VAT during the season how would the club have operated (after having been knocked out of Europe).
Sorry, but Rangers had been going that way for a long time. They were spending at least £10m a year they could not afford, and not moving to cut those expenses.
That is you saying Murray is guilty, debt was reduced to £18m when Lloyds pulled out, so, if Whyte had been REAL, we could have managed, but, cut our cloth drastically and let big earners leave.
dl2068 says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:45
7 2 Rate This
I am a member of RM, banned from FF, yes there are lot of Green followers on RM, but, they are the ones with very short memories , over on FF if you disagree with Jaffa you are out, but, RM is a decent place to air your views,
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Umm… they could do with a decent swear filter!
If you visit there you are pretty swiftly assailed with everyone being called the c word. It gets weary. And you depart.
So whether it is as you say “a decent place to air views” – I’ve never been able to stay long enough to find that out.
The only Thread there I stayed to the end of was about 3 months ago when they erroneously thought they had discovered the identity of RTC. It got scary & threatening & violent VERY quickly.
To be frank, as someone living in England I cannot understand why Scots police have not moved in on Rangers websites. Baffles me…
dl2068 says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:12
Fair enough, I was paranoid after the other night, we had a spate of TD’s very obviously a troll raid, not just me. You are, of course, fully entitled to slap my wrist 🙂
no harm
Any truth in the soon to be ‘breaking news’ stories that HMRC will pursue individuals for tax evasion – guilt = custodial sentence??? Heard from reliable source?? Anyone ??
To dl2068, Re Rangers Media Forum.
I’m not going to clog up this excellent blog discussion with stuff from RM, but I visited there two weeks ago and again two days ago and on each occasion immediately encountered the following examples of what is published there. Please look at these posts – probably still there, unmoderated, for all I know – and explain to me why the law is not being applied to what you describe as the reasonable, moderate TRFC supporters site??
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Sept 19th
Scott-RFC
Super Ally!
Group:True Blue
Topics:1,045
Posts:28,846
Rep:164
Joined:16-December 06
Gender:Male
Location:EK
Posted Yesterday, 11:13 PM
I think if they take 5 titles off us, we go onto 49 and them on 48, blood will be spilled
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Sept 28
WATP-FOREVER
Ian Durrant
Group:True Blue
Topics:10
Posts:578
Rep:78
Joined:07-August 12
Gender:Male
Location:Ma neighbours, neighbour
Posted Today, 12:57 PM
isn’t mr twonames a qc (queer c**t).
Brenda, How many hours now? If you see what I mean. Truth comes dropping slow
dl2068 says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:16
Even if that were true, and I have never seen it, Where was the other £40m – £50m coming from.
Craig Whyte was brought in to be in charge when the ships hit the fan. It was going to happen whether he was there or not.
Had he not stolen £14m in PAYE and VAT during the season how would the club have operated (after having been knocked out of Europe).
Sorry, but Rangers had been going that way for a long time. They were spending at least £10m a year they could not afford, and not moving to cut those expenses.
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That is you saying Murray is guilty, debt was reduced to £18m when Lloyds pulled out, so, if Whyte had been REAL, we could have managed, but, cut our cloth drastically and let big earners leave.
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If you really believe that then please continue, but it simply isn’t true. Rangers were over-spending for a long time. It was only the CL income which kept them going. As soon as they were knocked out by Malmo and Maribor, meaning no CL or Europa income they had to stop paying PAYE and VAT just to survive.
Rangers needed to half the wage budget and had made no real efforts to do it. Thye should have started doing it years ago.
I’m afraid Rangers fans were simply unwilling to accept that Celtic turnover substantially more than them, all else being equal. Somewhere in the region of £9m per year, based on domestic income alone. Celtic were cutting their costs because even with that money the expenditure was too high. Rangers should have been cutting over £10m just to get on an even keel and weren’t.
It had been going on for too long. Whyte was brought in to be in charge when the inevitable happened. He was only ever going to be short term. Green was supposed to take over (he himself acknowledged being around in the February). He was supposed to take the new business into the SPL, having dropped all the legitimate debt, and everything started over from there.
It never happened.
Rangers will now struggle to survive in this incarnation without your money going into this share issue. Which now seems to be selling shares in the ltd company rather than being a floatation.
Agrajag says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:01
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chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:54
Apologies in advance if this has been discussed in detail previously.
There are lot of posters here who are of the opinion that TRFC is already short of funding! I know that the CVA offer was £8.5m and Green eventually paid D&P £5.5m for assets. So I therefore assume circa £3m potentially in bank of TRFC before a ball is kicked.
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They could have said £18.5m for the CVA it made not one jot of difference it was never going to happen. So to assume that money was left sitting in a bank account is a massive leap of faith.
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I’ll take that as a no then.
Like I said it was best case scenario.Benefit of the doubt and all that. Just trying to get a handle on when their liable to run out of money without further funding!
I am sad to hear the news about Corsica.
I had missed his wisdom and humanity since we tuped over from RTC and wondered what happened to his insights.
Condolences to his family and RIP to someone who did more than his bit for our cause.
He was an inspiration and a guide.
bangordub?? About 127ish too many to mention ……. What do you mean?? Have I been duped 😉
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:54
There are lot of posters here who are of the opinion that TRFC is already short of funding! I know that the CVA offer was £8.5m and Green eventually paid D&P £5.5m for assets. So I therefore assume circa £3m potentially in bank of TRFC before a ball is kicked.
Various breathless press releases have quoted 33k ST sold. At £268 each this gives us just under another £9m
With a less expensive playing staff wages will be reduced. How much does Ibrox and Murray Park cost to run.D&P’s figures seem to suggest somewhwere in the region of £800k/month.Thats £9.6m. (Does not matter if thats SPL or Div3, ) This leaves £2.4m for wages and running coste
Are my figures ball park accurate?
……………………………..
I read something suggesting that between children and oaps it accounted for 50% of season ticket sales which would be closer to 7million income.
Forget any money supposedly in the bañk for the cva, it was not there.
Then add in policing costs, stewarding, costs, travel costs, doctors, physios, training and coaching staff, then mcgreggor,mcculloch,wallace,sandaza,kyle, templeton,plus his fee, and a few other big earners, wages for players until they left at end of window, 3million? Due for football debts,
Trips to América, geneva, ireland, fines to SFA .
There are experienced people on here who have done break downs and the figures without a big input from the fans wont see rangers complete the season.
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:31
===========================
In my opinion, and I have no inside information or special knowledge, they are currently spending all of the money they have and are not planning for later in the season. They are hoping to bring extra money in in order to do that.
They have the season ticket money, and any ongoing income streams. It is not enough for a whole season as far as I can work out. They need additional funds, whether it is further private investment, new investors, sale of assets or borrowing.
I do not think Rangers can see out the season without that additional money. Remember, in the position they are in they cannot simple let debt increase. In order to do that you have to have someone providing the money. I have seen nothing to suggest proper banking facilities, including overdraft or loans being available.
The fans will have to bail them out, or assets will be sold.
Davis58, are you being deliberately obtuse or are you davis58 nice but dim?
It matters not what the legal status is of EBT’s. What does matter is that every payment made to a player for playing football MUST be declared to the SPL and SFA. If RFC failed to do that (because doing so would have been tantamount to declaring them as contractual and therefore taxable) then they have a case to answer. Even if the FTTT comes back and says no tax to pay then RFC may still have a case to answer if payments have been made to players outwith their declared contracts.
Brenda says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:38
Brenda, dont, let go. Every step of this needs to be kept note of. Certain people are relying on short memories
Anyone else think that should a lucky bear hit the crossbar … That that would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back ! !
dl2068
‘debt was reduced to £18m when Lloyds pulled out’
Your debt to the bank was reduced to £18M, BUT you also had trade and football debt of around £50-60M(check the accounts) and the wee and big tax cases estimated at around £75M – so a total of around £140-150M when Murray left.
bangordub
I’ll get counting again then ……. 😉
Agrajag
So ultimately, this is really all about a group of Spivs saying to Rangers fans, – if you want your club, 500 sheckles, please. Ch-ching! (Or not.) The rest is all bluster.
doontheslope says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:59
Agrajag
So ultimately, this is really all about a group of Spivs saying to Rangers fans, – if you want your club, 500 sheckles, please. Ch-ching! (Or not.) The rest is all bluster.
================================
That is my belief, though I stress again this is just my opinion. I have no special knowledge, inside information, or anything else.
Observer says:
September 29, 2012 at 19:11
==========================
Here’s some of what FF had to say about Bomber on shortbread today!!!
Originally posted by TrueblueAl
I have lost nearly all respect for John Brown. While he was a good player for us he is now disgracing himself.
Originally posted by andybellrfc
And we wanted bomber in charge, myself included. We would have no silverware left. Thank god we have Charles Green fighting our battle.
Originally posted by highlanderger
The thing about bomber is that he sounds like Alastair Johnston did and everybody said all the same things about him. Don’t get me wrong I have been impressed with Charles green just now but I would also love to know the identities of all his backers. We could be sitting here in a couple of years time apologising to bomber for all of this. It is so sad that still we as a support do not know the whole truth yet and might never know. Since David Murray came we have been just treated like mushrooms ,kept in the dark and fed a pile of sh1t. Hope bomber is totally wrong because I don’t want to go through this sorry episode again. As a support though all we can do is support the team and hope we are not being shafted for a 3rd time in a row.
Originally posted by Albertz Was King
He still palling about with tims and shouting “SHOW US THE DEEDS”?
We are getting on with being Rangers, what is he doing apart from boosting hos own profile?
Originally posted by Alcatraz Loyal
Not listening but it sounds like Bomber has full-scale whored himself to the enemy.
Hope that 30 pieces of silver is worth it, Uncle Tom! To think, I backed him when he stood at the door and rallied the troops.
Originally posted by sam_cooke
What though, if what he is saying about Whyte and Ticketus is correct ?
None of us wanted to listen to what Alistair Johnston had to say about Whyte !
Im completly at a loss as to why Brown would put his neck on the line over this.
I like every other Bear simply want the best for the club, Green has certainly gave us all everything we wanted in the regard to how the club is run. We are no longer accepting anything thrown at us without a fight. When the bidding for the club was taking place, I do not ever recall Paul Murray (The Blue Knights) or Brian Kennedy ever publicly defending the club or firing back at the mhedia maggots that were slandering us at every chance. Not once. Only McCoist was there to defend us. Green seems to be fighting our corner at every turn and for that reason most of us are happy to now put our trust in him.
I can only say I hope to hell that we aint all singing from the wrong hymn sheet !
Originally posted by Sam_English
Seriously – has Bomber lost the plot somewhere ?
Brenda says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:53
Brenda, Every detail matters, it really does. In a situation like this the level of detail is crucial. The average person remembers a bit. not everything. The value of a blog such as this and of course, RTC, is that a contemporaneous record exists. That is what is getting really scary for the CG’s of this world. we are now dealing with the here and now, not the past. We are now not just a revelation of the past, we are a record of the here and now.
That is why your timeline is important.
My own blog is on about a visit from Nick of the BNP at the moment, I can see a link with other visits recently but this is not the forum
Has C Green got plans inplace to sell a big block of shares every time he needs more cash?
spanishcelt says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:40
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 29, 2012 at 20:54
I had a post at the end of the last article that laid out some back of the fag packet figures.
Basically I was saying Dave King and Bill Millar believed £30m was required. to keep the club afloat.
In non payment of PAYE NI & VAT we know Whyte in 8 months needed that ‘extra’ £14m to keep going,
Duff & Duffer, despite lowering the wage bill ran up a trading loss of around £1m per month from mid Feb to end June this year.
Therefore with lower revenue from season tickets & pay on the day, no TV cash no euro money, no sharing of SPL funds have T’Rangers made enough cuts in running costs to make up £1m a month. There certainly doesn’t seem to be any evidence of an increase in revenue. Nor is there any signs of investment other than possibly £4m from those named investors to date. Certainly nothing near the £30m spoken about.
The only difference this season is that the club may have managed to lower the wage bill, but only for the players being all other staff will be on the same contracts as required by TUPE. Therefore running costs could be just the same as when D&D were loosing a million a month.
For me it is simply a case of which is going to run out first time or money.
For all the slagging he took at the time Bomber Brown is on the same page of the Hymn book. He knows it is touch and go and that a repeat of the Whyte scenario will sink the club forever.
999 To the Police please…….. Please check Vanguard Bears, Follow Follow and Rangers Media and act now!!!!
R.I.P Corsica
ESSEXBEANCOUNTER
On a very sad night when we are all noting the sad passing of Corsica, the greatest outcome of all this nonsense would be the ultimate proof of his assertion that all the “associated/related” parties to the biggest scandal ever to arise in football in the UK, are still on the scene, and still acting “in concert”….viz. Murray…Whyte(Jnr)….Whyte(Snr)…Grier…Green(and unknown others).
_____________________________________________________________________________
TOGETHER , THEY ARE RANGERS !!!
bangordub says:
September 29, 2012 at 22:17
Well said!! Nick is another pernicious blight on humanity. And…. gon yersel Brenda!!
I was intending posting tonight about thoughts I was having today as to where we would be if Murray hadn’t sold to Whyte and simply sold a few players and cut the wage bill. Or even if Whyte had done the same and actually paid a few bills. Rangers, that is the original version, could have been languishing mid table in the SPL, but with no administration, no liquidation, and simply biding their time waiting on the FTTT to hit. How simple would life be for us all.
However, having come on and read the sad news about Corsica I think I may leave matters be for the evening.
jean7brodie says:
( God that name brings back memories ;-))
If Brenda only keeps a clock ticking she will have served Scottish Football well, and I’m not a Scotsman,
Nick turned up today ticking exactly the same boxes as CG a few days ago in Belfast. I have no religious or political interest but I know a rat when I smell one
The SFA statement … was there anything other than the piece on the BBC website that said a statement was “expected within 48 hours”? Expected, not definite. And expected by whom? The BBC?
Anyway, I noticed a tweet on the BBC live text commentary thing this afternoon about Rangers “bringing friendliness and joy to another far-flung football outpost”.
Firstly, may I point out that said outpost is not far-flung to the people who live there, and secondly the people who attend matches in the lower divisions, and Highland League, are generally far friendlier than your average bear.
This whole patronising thing about the Rangers bandwagon rolling into smaller towns and showing people what football is all about is beginning to grate. The home supporters are as, if not more, loyal to their club as any of the visiting fans – they get no silverware, ever, and support their team every week through thin and thinner.
They are there because they support their team, not because of political or religious tie-ins, not because they get to be a Peepil of any description, and not because they’re expecting glory. Just the fitba. No ulterior motives.
There may be only a couple of hundred of them as opposed to 40000, but each one is a genuine football supporter of an honest club and team.
Perhaps the Rangers support can roll their bandwagon round the back, and go and learn something from the home fans instead.
whisperer18 says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:51
Anyone else think that should a lucky bear hit the crossbar … That that would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back ! !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You think maybe they saved a few pennies by not bothering with the insurance?
Another business opportunity for Chas?
http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=239591&pid=1060488594&st=0&#entry1060488594
allyjambo says: September 29, 2012 at 16:31
As to Edmiston House, I know nothing about the building itself, but wonder why Green would want to buy it, at this stage … ——
would the purchase of Edmiston house increase the potential value of the stadium if he was thinking of a sale and lease back deal which would allow another party to develop the land around the stadium while rangers get a long term lease on the ground (while paying handsomely for the priviledge)?
dl2068 says:
RM is a decent place to air your views, and, yes, you will be accused of Taig etc, but I suppose rival fans forums are similar.
——
I don’t think they are, not Aberdeen ones anyway. Not to RM levels.
I don’t think RM is a decent place to air your views, either. Perhaps for yourself as a respected poster there, but not for me. 🙂 They don’t exactly encourage reasoned debate, now, do they?
I find RM pretty shocking. Aside from the constant vitriol, the blind allegiance to whichever person on the latest pedestal (currently Green) – and the willingness to knock them off it (Bomber) – and the bogitry and scetarianism that permeates almost every post, I find it a genuinely disturbing place.
I’m actually surprised that the police haven’t taken an interest.
Absolutely nothing personal against you, dl. It’s good to have someone representing TRFC around here.
For any Rangers fans reading this who may be tempted to part with £500 for shares in something, before you you commit to anything ask yourselves “Why does Rangers FC/Charles Green need my money?”
It’s not to fund a warchest for Ally because you can’t register players until the Jan14 transfer window.
It’s not to pay for the initial asset purchase because Charles had around 20 millionaires doing that for him. As we know he always tells the truth, so if he said 20 millionaires were funding things then I’m happy with that explanation
So that makes me think that he needs your money to either fund his getaway on the first stagecoach out of Dodge or he needs it just to keep the business going. Do you really want to give him money for either option?
If he needs it to fund his getaway while you all pile on the Springfield Monorail then hell slap it in to you cos you’ve been well warned (I’m sure I can’t be the only person who thinks Charles Green is Lyle Lanlely from the Simpsons in the flesh).
If you genuinely believe he has your club’s best interests at heart then he must need your money now just to keep the show on the road. There’s been spreadsheets aplenty drawn up estimating income, expenditure, breakeven points. Admittedly no-one on here knows the exact details of what is going on financially at Ibrox but the very best approximations show a club struggling to breakeven so he could need your money just to keep the business going.
If that is the case then ask yourself, what is the plan next year, another share issue to cover next year’s cashflow shortfall? Can you afford to do it all over again.
My opinion is that Rangers, without a sizeable cash injection, will struggle to last the season. But this isn’t only my opinion, it’s the opinion of the bookmakers. I’ve tried to get odds on Rangers going into administrationby the end of the season or not being able to fulfil their fixtures and no-one will give me odds on it, Skybet, Paddy Power, William Hill, Bet 365 all boast about the markets they run but none of them will touch this particular bet. That says more than I ever could.
So i went to RM for a look, in case I was wrong about them (23:28).
Regarding a bloke who apparently serial-calls radio programmes to “rant” about TRFC:
—–
Does anybody know who this c*nt Tommy actually is?
I know he has come under a few different names during his calls to the phone-ins. Can tell its him right away, and so can the f*ckin w*nkstains who take the calls.
The bastard should be exposed as he needs his f*ckin mouth sewn shut.
(DISCLAIMER – by a high court judge to prevent his bigoted rants obviously)
—–
jfl68 says:
September 29, 2012 at 22:55
I was intending posting tonight about thoughts I was having today as to where we would be if Murray hadn’t sold to Whyte and simply sold a few players and cut the wage bill. Or even if Whyte had done the same and actually paid a few bills. Rangers, that is the original version, could have been languishing mid table in the SPL, but with no administration, no liquidation, and simply biding their time waiting on the FTTT to hit. How simple would life be for us all.
However, having come on and read the sad news about Corsica I think I may leave matters be for the evening.
====================================================================
JFL (?)….nice to see you posting again.
I still await a response from dl2068 on these matters also.
I just hope and pray that one day Corsica will be vindicated for his efforts in exposing these charlatans.
PS no Chablis Premier Cru tonight!
gie’s a gonk says:
September 29, 2012 at 23:41
Interesting that the bookmakers will not take the bet on Sevco going into administration and not being able to complete their fixtures – says a lot about the (in)ability of the SFA to protect the interests of the game and their member clubs.
If Sevco go into administration in 2012/13 – can the membership of the SFA ask on what basis did the SFA judge Sevco to be a viable and sustainable footballing concern licence to the extent that a licence was granted?
Hm. Now this IS intriguing.
Why would David Longmuir not yet have delivered to the SFL the letter of resignation he wrote more than a week ago?
Might it be because he believes Stewart Regan to have a similar letter of resignation tucked away in his desk drawer? Ready to be delivered at a moment soon approaching?
Is it a case of who will blink first?
If Phil Mac Ghiolla Bhain’s online blog has one thing right it is that the issue of league reconstruction has now come to a head in secret ongoing meetings. And it is no longer tenable that both Longmuir and Regan will be in position in a fortnight’s time.
Possibly neither.
And who is wielding the whip in these negotiations? Could it be powerful forces that canny Yorkshireman Charles Green has recently persuaded to come on board?
Is the Rangers dollar finally talking this week?
Beware – Trolls! Do not feed!
essexbeancounter says:
September 29, 2012 at 23:47
JFL (?)….nice to see you posting again.
I still await a response from dl2068 on these matters also.
I just hope and pray that one day Corsica will be vindicated for his efforts in exposing these charlatans.
PS no Chablis Premier Cru tonight!
————————————————————————————————————————–
Yes Essex I have had to expand my name to accomodate WordPress requirements.
I have only posted once since the early days of TUPEing over from RTC. It was sad come on tonight and hear about Corsica. I share your hopes and prayers on that front.
On a lighter note, as for my alcohol consumption tonight, Mrs JFL has been revisiting her former barmaid days by making some long vodkas. Which were required to keep my blood pressure in check as my eldest sat on the couch cuddling up to her new(ish) boyfriend. She is 18 and just started uni so I am in no position to complain. But that has never stopped me in the past…
Is there no depths to which Ally wont stoop?
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/sfl-division-three/ally-mccoist-hurt-by-lack-of-bbc-reply-to-complaint-1-2550813
Does anyone think there will be serious investment in TRFC before BDO has made their intentions clear? Who will they pursue and for what? That is a cloud of uncertainty casting a shadow over CG & Co. Untill that is resolved no sensible invester would risk a penny in my opinion.
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 30, 2012 at 00:32
==============================
Charles Green isn’t selling sense or investment.
He is selling emotion and a belief in superiority.
What Rangers fan worth calling themselves that won’t buy into it. The Celtic fans bought into it (even though it was an entirely different model) how could good Rangers fans not do the same.
They even speak of Mr Green as their own version of Fergus McCann. Even though the analogy doesn’t work. To my shame I really hope they believe him and do buy into it.
Long Time Lurker says:
September 30, 2012 at 00:04
———————
If Sevco go into administration in 2012/13 – can the membership of the SFA ask on what basis did the SFA judge Sevco to be a viable and sustainable footballing concern licence to the extent that a licence was granted?
———————
Sevco will be in big trouble (of the membership variety) if they go into administration within the next 12 months! ALL measures would have to be taken to make sure this didn’t happen … The SFA and Mr Ogilvie would have some MEGA ‘gerrymandering’ to organise! ;
forweonlyknow says:
September 30, 2012 at 01:09
———————————————
Sevco will be in big trouble (of the membership variety) if they go into administration within the next 12 months! ALL measures would have to be taken to make sure this didn’t happen … The SFA and Mr Ogilvie would have some MEGA ‘gerrymandering’ to organise! ;
—————————————————————————————————————————–
There would also be some major loss of face on behalf of SFA. SFL members proposed a vote of no confidence of Regan already after their vote on admitting Sevco to league.
Dont think SFA high heid yins would be able to hurrumph their way out of resignation.
chris shields (@chrisshields10) says:
September 30, 2012 at 01:29
0 0 Rate This
forweonlyknow says:
September 30, 2012 at 01:09
———————————————
Sevco will be in big trouble (of the membership variety) if they go into administration within the next 12 months! ALL measures would have to be taken to make sure this didn’t happen … The SFA and Mr Ogilvie would have some MEGA ‘gerrymandering’ to organise! ;
—————————————————————————————————————————–
There would also be some major loss of face on behalf of SFA. SFL members proposed a vote of no confidence of Regan already after their vote on admitting Sevco to league.
Dont think SFA high heid yins would be able to hurrumph their way out of resignation.
———————————————-
Well, well.
Am I permitted to say:
“This”?
doontheslope says:
September 30, 2012 at 00:28Feeling pretty melancholy tonight and it angers me that Alistair Mc Coist is quoted as comparing the young girl’s death to a show promo. Had a few drinks and can’t express myself the way I would like.
Thoughts are with Corsica’s family.
I’ve been looking at the attendances at our “top” clubs to try an find the Armageddon scenario – so widely predicted by those with such expert knowledge and experience they could confidently analyse the effect of Rangers departure from the SPL.
I’ve compared the season’s average attendances last term to the averages so far in this season. To create as broad a sample as possible, I’ve included any team that has played in the SPL over the past 5 seasons.
I’d be grateful if someone else could verify my figures. Thanks.
The second table contains the variance between the two seasons.
Compared with…
So, if my figures are correct, in total we have lost just 383 fans from the 177,743 who regularly watched their teams in season 2011/12. Or to put it another way – for every 464 fans last season, just ONE PERSON has chosen not to return this season.
Another way to look at this is that Celtic’s average is down by almost 6,000 – but this is largely off-set by an ADDITIONAL FIVE THOUSAND FANS following the other clubs.
Much of Celtic’s drop will be caused by the financial pressures on fans because of their CL qualification (though also partly on the difference between the normal attendance against RFC and the recent game against Dundee).
Also, I’ve included the figures for Falkirk & Hamilton – neither which actually played in the SPL this or last season. Collectively, these account for a net loss of 603 fans. If these are removed, the teams involved in the SPL over the past two seasons (for calculation purposes counting RFC and Sevco together) have seen an INCREASE on the averages of 161 fans. I’d suggest, that in such times of economic hardship, being able to attract ANY extra fans into the game is no mean feat.
Is such good news Stewart Regan’s version of Armageddon?
Just wondering, interesting that with the bookmakers not giving odds on TRFC surviving the season, and coupled with the non statement from the SFA and the rumours of SPL clubs not keen on being dictated to again, – are these linked? Did the SFA do their own calculations based on RFC and TRFC figures, came to the same conclusion as the bookies, and thought about announcing some gerrymandered rescue package, but SFL clubs said not on your nelly.
They might also have seen info from the FTT if this is out next week.
All this, and a Dons win too, ah, bliss….
Saddened to hear the news of Corsica’s passing. Truly one of the original and best ‘Big Hitters’.
I wonder if it would be possible for TSFM to ponder some form of blog acknowledging his contribution to RTC and his best posts.
This has some nuggets! Literally!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-T30bnc4Q&feature=relmfu
Jmaclure / davis58 / oldgold
========================
Irrelevant.
The CE says:
September 30, 2012 at 02:04
10 1 Rate This
Saddened to hear the news of Corsica’s passing. Truly one of the original and best ‘Big Hitters’.
I wonder if it would be possible for TSFM to ponder some form of blog acknowledging his contribution to RTC and his best posts.
CE
Go to the menu section at the top of the blog.
A page set aside for our friend
goosygoosy says:
September 29, 2012 at 21:58
duplesis says:
September 29, 2012 at 02:09
@goosygoosy at 23:44
It remains possible of course that Whyte or Ticketus are somewhere in the background, but D&P didn’t need the consent of the floating charge holder to transfer the assets from RFC2012(IA) – para 70 and 113 of schedule B1 give them that power.
The FC holder could’ve challenged such a sale/transfer in the court by virtue of para 74 (from memory) but didn’t.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
duplesis
Perhaps we have different starting points in assessing what transpired between April 2011and
Sept 2012
My starting point is that all the key players are out and out Spivs in the Craig Whyte mould. By that I mean guys who exploit company law for gain. Amoral people with no qualms about cheating legitimate Creditors and causing misery to thousands of RFC and Sevco fans. When you assume these guys are Spivs working together to exploit company law then everything falls into place.
Anyone who believes these guys are not Spivs are bound to see the RFC saga differently
For Example
The Sale of RFC Assets by D&P to Green
As one of a group of Spivs…………
Greens aim was to get control of these assets .He wanted these assets with as much legal debt as possible.
D&P`s aim was to justify selling Ibrox and MP for £2.75m and they did this by selling the assets and concurrently reducing the Creditor List by taking out CW, Ticketus, SSC and Close Leasing .The legal mechanics of how D&P did this is a matter for the lawyers
Why did Green want assets with a massive debt?
Three reasons
1. Green will argue( if challenged) that he had no choice but to accept this debt as the price of a cheap deal By paying £2.75m and accepting a CW/Ticketus/Close Leasing debt of around £55m Green is putting a value approaching £60m on RFC
2 When he eventually reveals this massive debt Green will be able to drain cash from the business and tell the fans it was the price of saving the club
3 A sizeable proportion of this massive debt will go to Green and his backers
Once you accept that these guys are Spivs working in cahoots the only concern thereafter is how to structure the deal to make it legal
It`s irrelevant whether Whyte`s floating charge over RFC(IA) would stand up in court if he is never going to be challenged in court by a fellow Spiv. Likewise it`s irrelevant whether creating a new Whyte fc over the assets after they have been transferred to Sevco is an unnecessary move if the fellow Spivs have agreed not to challenge it in court
Similarly
Its irrelevant whether creating a new Close Leasing fc over the assets after they have been transferred to Sevco is an unnecessary move if the fellow Spivs have agreed not to challenge it in court
Its also irrelevant whether transferring the Ticketus ST obligation from RFC(IA) to Sevco plc is an unnecessary move if there is no fellow Spiv willing to challenge it in court
All that matters is whether or not it is legal
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Goosy – superb as always – wanted to make sure this was carried over as the last post/entry from the last blog since the above hits the nail on the head for me………….
Captain Haddock says: September 30, 2012 at 02:03
Just wondering, interesting that with the bookmakers not giving odds on TRFC surviving the season…
=========
‘Absolutely’ CH!
If Sevco don’t fulfil their playing commitments for 2012/13 then the SFA must be/should be liable.
Along with a certain A.McCoist – the SFA organisation is a disgrace.
I find myself in a persistent quandry: as a reasonably responsible professional/citizen – why should I be bothered by the whole RFC debacle when the SFA itself is such an impotent, uncommunicative, discredited and thoroughly repugnant organisation?
As a besotted football youth in Scotland it pains me now to say that I don’t want either of my children to have anything to do with the SFA – at any level.
This will be just one minor detail of Regan’s legacy – but as a corporate animal I’m sure he doesn’t give a monkey’s about that.
I do apologise: rant over…
Goosy’s post touches one one thing we all seem to lack – the ability to put ourselves in CG’s shoes.
We are all thinking of how we as normal business/sporting/legal/accountants folks would look at a situation. What none of can do is get into the Spivs shoes because it is so ahorrent to us – like Gordon Keko in Wall Street laying off the folks at the factory after he took it over – because he can! People thinking in purely financial gains and bottom lines is something we cannot comprehend.
My father was a miner – we were told that coal was not needed anymore – it was uneconomical. The fact that my father spent half his life underground and had a broken body to do his job in order to pay for his family’s needs and give us a better life cannot be represented on a financial sheet. Nor could anyone determine the impact of the whole village where we lived shutting down when the mine went – no mine meant no pay,no money meant no shops. The folks who said we could not sustain mining did not care about such trivialities – and we could never understand their logic either.
CG is a master though – not only has he quickly seized on the important topics for the Bears – some say too quickly, seems maybe someone has educated him 🙂 – and they are an easy lot to please if that list of questions provided from the NI visit – no 3 – can we get a “tangerine” away top please – shows folks who have their priorities right.
CG must think this is like shooting fish in a barrel – they are trying to see if they can get a yard and go a mile with the current Bears. How much more can they get before they cut and run.
They all threaten to take each other to court – yet they never will.
Like it or lump it we are stuck with the situation – our football bodies can only think on the impact on Sky TV deal or attendence figures – and with pressure from on high to get the “fabric of Scottish society”, they leap to help the only person available to help them with the all important Sky deal,
Our MSM need the readership to keep their sordid stories being printed and read so are ever so obliging to help out and are grateful for the bones being thrown from the table.
The Bears are being played like a fiddle – stories and promises of hotels, shopping centres, hover pitches, tangerine tops and shares being issued for the trip back to the top.
No one is questioning CG at all with real questions. His consortium could contain anyone – at least 2 of the names he has given as contributors have subsequently denied they had put any money in (McColl and McCoist).
As Goosy says – they are spivs – what they have done is stitch it up for themselves – the only thing is if BDO can find some legal way to undo what they have done or mess it up for the Spivs.
Their fans and team are now an irrelevance for me – they deserve what they get being duped now for the umpteenth time.
My fear is the impact on Scottish football – am enjoying the SPL this year – seems more fun somehow – but we know its the calm before the storm.
When the end game comes and the money is stuffed into duffel bags to go to BVI, what will the landscape look like? Hopefully not like the mining village I grew up…………
September 30, 2012 at 05:13 1 0 Rate This
Goosy’s post touches one one thing we all seem to lack – the ability to put ourselves in CG’s shoes…
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As a purely, objective accountant I do have to tip my hat to CG who has played a blinder!
From ‘safe houses’ to Sevco hero in a matter of weeks is impressive.
Now CG is enticing the hordes to ‘invest’ at £500 a pop: genius.
But the recent – alleged – ‘cosying’ up to dodgy elements in Northern Ireland is worrying.
Having spent a significant portion of my working life outside of the UK I view the whole RFC/’traditions’ as total bollox in the great scheme of things. For balance, I do believe that CFC has its own share of ‘nutters’.
For perspective: maybe those who have lived abroad or are currently living abroad will concur: it’s only football.
I consider myself to be a ‘religiously observant’ person but that is personal and has nothing to do with sporting allegiances.
I get the impression that those who indulge in the West of Scotland sectarianism rarely visit religious establishments.
All I want to see are encouraging signs that Scottish football is improving, (via Euro competitions), and that the Scotland national team is moving up the FIFA rankings – and actually qualifying for the Euros or World Cup finals.
I loved playing football well into my 30’s and still love watching Scottish and English football.
If the SFA continues to mishandle the Sevco shambles, then I fear the SFA will seriously disaffect Scottish football fans – and the next generation of potential players and supporters.
Green’s inherent nonsense exposed…
http://m.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/tom-english-if-a-fan-offered-green-a-grand-to-move-ibrox-a-little-bit-to-the-left-he-d-get-the-movers-in-1-2555918
BRTH: so, if I may summarise: “A club’s a club for a’ that”?
Btw there are many parrallels between Burn’s poem and the factors that brought us to where we are today…
What though on hamely fare (no succulent lamb!)</i) we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an' a that;
Gie fools their (tangerine)silks, and knaves their (finest red) wine;
A Man’s a Man for a’ that:
For a’ that, and a’ that,
Their tinsel show (of moonbeams and mirrors), an’ a’ that;
The honest man, tho’ e’er sae poor,
Is king o’ men for a’ that.
Ye see yon birkie, ca’d a lord,
Wha struts, an’ stares, an’ (call themselves “the peepel”) a’ that;
Tho’ hundreds worship at his word (slavishly printed in the msm),
He’s but a coof for a’ that:
For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
His ribband, (five) star, an’ a’ that:
The man o’ independent mind
He looks an’ laughs at a’ that.
A prince can mak a belted knight (arise Sir David),
A marquis, duke, an’ a’ that;
But an honest man’s abon his might,
Gude faith, he maunna fa’ that!
For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
Their dignities (did someone say dignity?!) an’ a’ that;
The pith o’ sense, an’ pride o’ worth,
Are higher rank than a’ that.
A banner portraying Zombies being shot, being complained about, and an imaginary shamrock putting in an appearance.
A banner about the banner, being complained about, apparently referencing 96 dead football fans.
And now McCoist making a complaint about the BBC’s comedic portrayal of himself as being insensitive to the families of two young suicide victims.
The MSM happy to carry all these ‘stories’ – even introducing the ‘imaginary’ parts – and yet none of them find Charles Green’s recent vist to NI worrying in the least. Not a peep from them.
In the immortal words of Ali G to the Grand Master of the NI Lodge, “If you love the Queen, wot you doin ova here den? Is you on ya holidays?”
Ali G a better journalist than anyone in the Scottish MSM?
Keepin it real, man.
jfl68 says:
September 30, 2012 at 00:28
essexbeancounter says:
September 29, 2012 at 23:47
JFL (?)….nice to see you posting again.
I still await a response from dl2068 on these matters also.
I just hope and pray that one day Corsica will be vindicated for his efforts in exposing these charlatans.
PS no Chablis Premier Cru tonight!
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Yes Essex I have had to expand my name to accomodate WordPress requirements.
I have only posted once since the early days of TUPEing over from RTC. It was sad come on tonight and hear about Corsica. I share your hopes and prayers on that front.
On a lighter note, as for my alcohol consumption tonight, Mrs JFL has been revisiting her former barmaid days by making some long vodkas. Which were required to keep my blood pressure in check as my eldest sat on the couch cuddling up to her new(ish) boyfriend. She is 18 and just started uni so I am in no position to complain. But that has never stopped me in the past…
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Aaaaaa…..the pleasures of parenthood which I sadly missed…!
Best wishes with your new role as a chaperone!
I was thinking about the bids for RFC(IA) that Corsica referred to in which some of his associates put forward monies for the assets of RFC(IA) far in excess of the offer made by CG.
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/corsica/
Given that Lord Hodge is currently concerned with a potential conflict between the administrators and CW/Ticketus – to what extent would his Lordship be interested in the quality of bids that were not accepted?
Can the individuals concerned write to the Court with their concerns?
If CG’s visit to NI was really as successful as it seems and they are all telling their members to trust him and put in their 500 quid for him, if he does vacate the premises by the back door as we expect leaving many confused Bears behind, that would be 1 mob I would not want hunting me down.
There are many BBC documentaries on Youtube for his perusal into how they deal with each other – 1 leader interestingly was assassinated after getting off the ferry from his trip to Ibrox to see his “beloved Rangers” something the assassins knew too well about – and if he is still none the wiser, maybe he can have an afternoon tea with Mad Dog down in Ayrshire who can explain what happens when there are feuds going on.
There are some folks you can dupe and there are some you should shy away from
CG should watch what his with that lot for sure
Last sentence should have been
CG should watch out what he is doing with that lot for sure
Agrajag says;
To my shame I really hope they believe him and do buy into it.
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I don’t. A lot of those to be separated from their £ 500 simply aren’t very bright, and can ill afford it. I find it infuriating that the law can’t do anything to stop an outright thief and liar from doing this.
Sad to hear the passing of Corsica and well done to TSFM for putting up a separate page.
His passing just reminds me that life is short and like many on here I am sure I spend far too much time posting and reading all our contributions.
Given all that has happened over the last few weeks I for one will be happy to sit back and watch T’Rangers sink into the mire of their own making.
So no more postings trying to guess what is going on, making financial predictions, trying to fathom out the goings on at the SFA/SPL/SFL and laughing at the MSM for thier stupidity. (At least some people like Tom English are beginning to get the picture)
We have told them what to watch out for so many times. On their own head be it.
I will of course not be able to break my habit so will keep my eye on events and make the occassional contribution, but I’m definitely going to try and cut back…………………….until of course the FTTT comes out 🙂
Keep up the good fight.