The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
Spiv and let (insert compant name) die
alex thomson@alextomo
Am heading to Rome tonight.
I’ve got it, the Pope is Green’s mystery backer and has had to resign cos Charlie couldn’t deliver first time entry into the SPL (Saintly Pontiff’s League).
Good read TSFM, some good points to mull over … but I think you asked a very pertinent question and left it (deliberately?) hanging a bit meatless in the narrative;
“ Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?” …
Ally’s unwavering fealty (good and bad) towards TRFC is undisguised, but Jim Traynor’s? … I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that JT’s, resignation from two high profile and well paid jobs, was a real ‘curve ball’ to all of us fans. Traynor has been many things to many folk over the years, but one thing he is not and that is a mutton head (oops!, you know what I mean) So why decide to work for a spiv, a man who sees truth and honesty as a genomic defect and treats The Rangers support simply as a voice activated ATM machine. It’s like offering your wholehearted support to Nixon – after the Watergate tapes have been broadcast!
IMO there is something a bit more compelling to JT’s employment at Ibrox and I think it can be explained by a previous poster (apologies ?) who succinctly pointed out “he’s always been SDM’s man!” an unequivocal truism, supported by a thousand back page articles. By including Murray into JT’s resignation story, is by far the only plausible explanation to a very bizarre decision on his part. Charles Green’s financial shelf life is coming close to its sell by date and someone of James Traynor’s experience would realise that.
So why the f#ck would JT get involved?
Unless … for the foreseeable future, SDM felt he needed a trusted ‘bondsman’ at the heart of the Ibrox media office, to protect his back; defend his position; walk point, praise and flatter, deflect damaging truths and interrupt every harmful line of enquiry that leads directly back to his Ibrox years and the club’s financial entanglement with MIH.
With collective self-interest; there has undoubtedly been verbal assurances from both Murray and Green, contracts signed, signatures in blood, high five’s, witnesses and ‘manly’ handshakes, to reassure him that his future employment and pension are safeguarded, either at Ibrox or MIH. And Traynor himself obviously feels shielded from imminent redundancy or purge, why else would he burn bridges with former colleagues and contemporaries, especially now as the good ship Ibrox is again seemingly heading into dangerous waters. Being invulnerable to his own boss’s retribution, could also be the reason he took sides with McCoist (also bulletproof) when he had a go at Green last week.
If I was kind, I would suggest that Mr Traynor changing jobs was nothing more than a midlife crisis, and at his age, he did indeed need a new career challenge.
But his track record betrays him … he always was, still is and always will be, the Dark Night’s Alfred.
valentinesclown says:
Sunday, February 10, 2013 at 18:07
42 3 Rate This
Sorry for repeating a link, from the previous blog/post but I think this is a significant possible turning point from the Daily Record.
http://t.co/4yHHXKgk
____________________________________________________
Story now removed from their website. The turning point didn’t last long. They remain a shameless pro-Rangers propaganda rag whatever spin they put on a particular article and will always will be
Talking of which, a Daily Record/Charles Green special…
By Chris Roberts
Rangers will be financially stronger than Celtic in a year, claims Charles Green
30 Jul 2012 18:48
THE Ibrox club’s supremo was bullish about Rangers’ future after their opening vistory over Brechin City in the Ramsdens Cup.
RANGERS owner Charles Green last night insisted the Ibrox club would be in a stronger financial position than Celtic in a year.
The battered and bruised club began life as a newco with an edgy extra-time 2-1 Ramsdens Cup win at Brechin but the new chief executive was bullish about the club’s future and claimed within 12 months their balance sheet would be stronger than the SPL champions.
Green said: “If you look at the balance sheets at the end of next season you should see the strength of the two companies.
“We are in the Third Division and Celtic are in the SPL and what I’d like you to do is promise me at the end of this season, when all the games are played, examine the balance sheets of the clubs and tell me which one is the strongest?
“Then let’s see who has got the strongest balance sheet.
“We’ve not got the debt that any of these clubs have and on the last day of the season I would really enjoy some clever financial analyst looking at the balance sheets and debt-to-equity ratio of every club in Scotland.”
Green revealed he will jet to London today to start the process of bringing £20-30million investment into the club by floating them on the stock exchange.
He said: “We said we would raise between £20million and £30m but the reason we couldn’t put the season tickets on sale was the same reason we couldn’t go out and raise further money until we knew we had a football club that was going to be allowed to ply its trade.
“That’s why we got that signed off on Friday and we have a meeting at 8.45am on Monday so we are hardly letting the grass grow under our feet.
“This is the start of the process on Monday when we go to London to start the meeting with stockbrokers.
“That is when the fans can take up ownership. They can buy into the club.”
Green, who revealed the newco will change their name to “The Rangers Football Club” this week, said he had no intention of cashing in on Ibrox or Murray Park.
The chief executive said: “Ibrox and Murray Park are owned by Sevco who will be changing its name to The Rangers Football Club.
“All the assets are owned by the company and nobody is trying to do anything with the assets. Ibrox and Murray Park won’t be sold.”
The Spiv Who S#@%$% Me !
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:12
———————————————————–
Or even around Bellshill, where the father of a budding plant and security firm tycoon
and a steel stockholder operated almost next door to each other.
Derek Johnstone on Radio Clyde tonight. It is almost worth giving up just ten minutes of your life to listen to the most sycophantic, uninformed, brainwashed hogwash about Rangers that you could ever imagine.
4 Spivs and a Funeral (and there will be a sequel I reckon)
stmungo69 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:46
But his track record betrays him
…he always was, still is and always will be, the Dark Night’s Alfred.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,
are you saying that (JT) is Batman's Fatman.. :0
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:49
Green said: “If you look at the balance sheets at the end of next season you should see the strength of the two companies.
“We are in the Third Division and Celtic are in the SPL and what I’d like you to do is promise me at the end of this season, when all the games are played, examine the balance sheets of the clubs and tell me which one is the strongest?
—————————————————————————————————————————
Can we do it now, please? Celtic have shown you theirs, Yorkie, will you show yours?
youtawknaboot says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:29
4 0 Rate This
…feel free to add titles
or strip them ?,as the case may be
——————————————————————————————————————
spiv unchained
Shortly followed by Les misables
Dr Spivago, epic drama.
What about yet another sequel in a series of snake-themed horror movies…?
Asp IV
TallBoy Poppy (@TallBoyPoppy) says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:31
And others
I think you miss my point. I clearly stated, or perhaps implied, that SDM got carried away with himself, his ambitions and his own reputation. In business there are many a chancer that got lucky when trying to expand who now lord it over us, while others who were unlucky or over stretched themselves at the wrong time find themselves in the mire. SDM is not the first and won’t be the last businessman that ended up finding they were not as good as they thought they were.
However one cannot get away from the fact that he did actually create and manage a metals business that for a while was relatively successful.
I am not apologist for SDM but one has to ask what have Whyte or Green ever created?
You only spiv TWICE.
Only our spivers run free
jimlarkin says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 14:54
1 0 Rate This
chico verde said last year that he was orking for “free”.
the sevconians
[ http://www.collinsdictionary.com/submission/5187/sevconian ]
believed him.
now he is on a salary over £350k p.a ad he has shares to the value of maybe 70p plus per share, which he sold to himself for 1p per share.
so, it is safe to assume that the money is coming out of either
a – rangers international
or
2 – sevco (now TRFC ltd)
so, even if the money cae out of TRFC
he can still say it is not coming out of rangers
(as it is really sevco)
well done chico, playing the sevconians at their own game
=====
ask yourself this
who is going to buy the shares at any price?
Is it more or less likely that RIFC will be in a better financial position when his lockin period is over?
Graham Greene classic, The Third Spiv
Given his current jet set lifestyle, it has to be ‘Spivs on a Plane’.
BBC news just reported that Juve are using RFC* facilities. Didn’t someone post last night that they had denied this? All on here were happy as it was another of Yorkie’s claims that was apparently untrue. Was he actually right enough?
Yeah, I posted a piece last night in which Juve denied they’d accepted the offer to use Moses Park. Apparently it was incorrect. Och well.
Meantime, can we stand down from the latest DefCon 1 alert (getting a bit tiresome, all these “about-to-break” nuclear events) or is Scotzine / the bloke from CQN about to spill?
nawlite says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 18:52
1 0 Rate This
BBC news just reported that Juve are using RFC* facilities. Didn’t
someone post last night that they had denied this? All on here
were happy as it was another of Yorkie’s claims that was
apparently untrue. Was he actually right enough?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think Chuck jumped the gun as Juve said they hadn’t decided yet. I never doubted they would though.
06805838 : MERCHANT CORPORATE RECOVERY PLC
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Company Information RiskFinancialOwnershipDirectorsReports
SummaryAdverseScore HistoryPayment PerformancePayment Rating
Credit Limit: £0
Current Score: 99
Risk Assessment:
Credit Rating is Suspended – Exercise extreme caution
Exercise extreme caution in dealing with this company.
A Winding Up Order has been issued.
——————————————————–
Poor Craig
“BBC news just reported that Juve are using RFC* facilities”.
Surprised they don’t have any on their coach but that’s cutbacks for you. Charles isn’t going to deny anyone that wants to spend a penny.
As for films, Carry on Spivving (the SFAs new strap line?)
angus1983 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 18:58
Meantime, can we stand down from the latest DefCon 1 alert (getting a bit tiresome, all these “about-to-break” nuclear events) or is Scotzine / the bloke from CQN about to spill?
—————————————————————————————————————————-
Angus, If my record is anything to go by that might be your commentators nightmare, in that when I have said similar in the past or said I wouldn’t be able to post due to having to get on with some work etc a big story usually breaks within 48 hrs 🙂
The Spiv Mile >>>>
angus1983 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 18:58
Yeah, I posted a piece last night in which Juve denied they’d accepted the offer to use Moses Park. Apparently it was incorrect. Och well…
====================================
Actually, IMO TRFC offering their training facilities is one of their very few good decisions.
The Govan club is generating some goodwill, [positive for a change], with an Italian club.
This may or may not be of benefit for TRFC if they get back into Europe.
The Champions League should also be about developing/reinforcing relationships with other clubs, [& I am assuming that TRFC is not charging for use of their facilities. ;)]
The only ‘unusual’ aspect of TRFC offering Murray Park to Juve is that TRFC doesn’t seem to be interested in improving relationships nearer to home.
Spiver
Spiv Actually
Silence of the Spivs
Field of Spivs
That was nice of Charlie to offer their facilities….
Just wait till Juve get back to Italy and find a rather inflated invoice sitting in the post box 😀
The spiv who thought he had a hill to climb and it turned out a mountain.
Vertigo ( french film about green filmed in monaco)
Spiv alone
StevieBC
Looks to me like yet another publicity opportunity. It’s had disproportionate column space, considering it’s Celtic who should be hogging the limelight with this fixture tomorrow.
Green seems determined to keep Spivco on the back pages no matter how nonsensical the story. It’s all about maintaining the profile.
You have to wonder where this sits with the exit strategy
It wouldn’t surprise me if Charlie has also attempted to convince the Juve officials that he also rents Celtic Park to Celtic FC….’We are a 100 million pound turnover club you know’
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:36
That was nice of Charlie to offer their facilities….
Just wait till Juve get back to Italy and find a rather inflated invoice sitting in the post box
………………………………………
400k sounds about right!
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:45
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:36
That was nice of Charlie to offer their facilities….
Just wait till Juve get back to Italy and find a rather inflated invoice sitting in the post box
………………………………………
400k sounds about right!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
🙂 Let’s be fair. The original quote from CG was that he had offered free use of Murray Park. It does seem like a decent gesture, even if the motive might be more geared towards publicity.
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 18:43
4 1 Rate This
Given his current jet set lifestyle, it has to be ‘Spivs on a Plane’
—————————————————————————–
A spiv for all seasons
(well maybe 1)
scottc says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:49
0 0 Rate This
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:45
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 19:36
That was nice of Charlie to offer their facilities….
Just wait till Juve get back to Italy and find a rather inflated invoice sitting in the post box
………………………………………
400k sounds about right!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Let’s be fair. The original quote from CG was that he had offered free use of Murray Park. It does seem like a decent gesture, even if the motive might be more geared towards publicity.
……………………………………………..
Fair play…he has to start being honest at some point…why not now!
Come to think of it…considering the recent background of Juventus and corruption within Italian football…it does seem appropriate to have them at his gaff…(apologies to the person who actually owns the gaff)
To Catch a Spiv
The Spiv’s Speech
To Kill a Mocking Spiv
Kind Hearts and Spivs
Raiders of the Spivs Ark
Spiv Fiction
Citizen Spiv
Gone with the Spiv
Craigy Boy is starring in Spivs of the Caribbean
wottpi says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 18:35
—————————————————————————————————————————
I’ll try not to get bogged down in this, wottpi,so I’m happy to concede that in that particular
three horse race, Murray compares favourably in a ‘best dressed Albanian’ kind of way. Even Fred the Shred would clear that low bar.
I would just like you to consider two small samples:
When (-S)DM first asked Masterton for a loan, they tossed a coin to see if his application was successful.That’s how these people treated the taxpayer.
Another nice wee cameo is to be found deep in the archives of the Scottish Executive website
about representations made by a retired couple living near Ratho. They refused to sell their land to Murray, and the intimidation they suffered from Murray’s right-hand man, one Jestyn Davies I think his name was, has been put on record. If you’ve seen the film about Trump and his golf course (You’ve been Trumped) you would think they had shared the same playbook.
For services to business? Do we really want our Captains of Industry to behave in that fashion?
I think not.
However, I’m delighted that there are still some some people like yourself willing to come on and play a straight bat on behalf of the counter-argument. We need your continued involvement and
your contributions are appreciated.
Honey i’ve shrunk the turnover
Down and out in Ibrox
A shot at glory 13
Dr Zeus how the spiv stole Ibrox
Do the Bouncy’s attempt to fathom their club’s ‘missing millions’
http://www.dothebouncy.com/home/content.php?319%E2%80%99s-Day-Massacre-the-unanswered-questions!
Scotzine @scotzine
And also it seems that Rangers aka Charles Green are making allegations that one of their young keepers has been tapped-up by a club and RFC will be taking them to court.
The keeper is rumoured to be Robby McCrorie with the likes of Man Yoo and Man City keeping tabs on him
Spivfall
Little Spiv of Horrors
Frankenspiv
The Green Spiv
Enough with the movie titles. Enough
thumbs down all you want 😉
two little spivs had two little clubs
each one had some debt…
And so they keep on comin’…
Last Spiv In Paris
In Search Of The Spivs
20,000 Spivs Under The Rock
This Sporting Spiv
The Long, The Spiv and The Tall
And Charles Green is NOT James Bond in…
Never Say Never Spiv Again
Licence To Spiv
Spiv Another Day
… and Mr Green IS James Bond in …
Spiv and Let (TRFC) Die.
(wottpi … aye, I’m hopefully tempting fate there. :))
This film title thread is begining to spiv me off.
I believe that Kris Commons is the latest addition to the blacklist for his mischievous comment. You have to wonder why he was asked the question, other than to stir up more unwelcome vitriol
I’m new to this forum and don’t seem to have a reply or quote option to reply to specific posts. What am I missing? Any help appreciated.
Wonder why he didn’t think of offering the same hospitality to Barcalona when the came to play in the CL?
upthehoops says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:04
0 0 Rate This
I’m new to this forum and don’t seem to have a reply or quote option to reply to specific posts. What am I missing? Any help appreciated.
_______________
copy and paste the post you want to reply to
jw hardin on Monday, February 11, 2013 at 20:20
2 0 Rate This
Do the Bouncy’s attempt to fathom their club’s ‘missing millions’
http://www.dothebouncy.com/home/content.php?319%E2%80%99s-Day-Massacre-the-unanswered-questions!
———————————-/-
Wow. Where do you begin with that. If this guy is touting himself as the thinking bears fan, then words fail me.
Or maybe he did and was told where to shove it!
A few months ago, this blog suffered a surfeit of “fish” jokes. Most were puns on matters pertaining to events current and most contained an element of humour.
Today’s glut of “spiv” film titles contain little entertainment value and are simply a list of film titles with one word substituted by spiv. There are at least 30-40 posts today which contain nothing else, which makes catching up on recent events extremely tiresome.
C’mon lads we can do better than this surely..
upthehoops says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:04
Welcome
It’s not that sophisticated. If you want to reply to a specific post it’s copy and paste like I’ve just done. Nice and simple. The contributions however are well informed and enlightening (myself excepted)
andy says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:12
Cheers Andy. Simple if you know how – insert embarrassed smiley here!
bailemeanach says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:13
Thank you.
smartie1947 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:13
A few months ago, this blog suffered a surfeit of “fish” jokes. Most were puns on matters pertaining to events current and most contained an element of humour…
=================================
You need a break smartie1947 : the night of the ‘fish’ puns must have been a year ago. 🙄
But you’re correct about the ‘spiv’ jokes – we need to focus on the porpoise of the blog…
paulmac2 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:11
1 0 Rate This
Wonder why he didn’t think of offering the same hospitality to Barcalona when the came to play in the CL?
Barca not his type of club maybe. He maybe feels more comfortable with clubs who have a significant stain on their history.
upthehoops says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:23
Barca not his type of club maybe. He maybe feels more comfortable with clubs who have a significant stain on their history.
_________________________________________________________________
Lol you are off to a flier!
StevieBC says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:21
1
0
Rate This
smartie1947 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:13
A few months ago, this blog suffered a surfeit of “fish” jokes. Most were puns on matters pertaining to events current and most contained an element of humour…
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You need a break smartie1947 : the night of the ‘fish’ puns must have been a year ago.
But you’re correct about the ‘spiv’ jokes – we need to focus on the porpoise of the blog…
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A year ago, you mean pre -admin 1.
God time flies when you’re enjoying yourself.
…
smartie1947 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:13
To be honest, I’m uncomfortable with the whole ‘spiv’ thing full stop. Firstly, it smacks of Leggat and his ‘Odious Creep’ nonsense, if we constantly refer to someone by a supposedly witty nickname. Secondly, it undersells them. Spivs makes me think of Private Walker in Dad’s Army, a sort of oily character, but no more than that. It doesn’t make me think of someone prepared to stir up resentment to an extent that threats of violence to innocent parties are seen as a perfectly acceptable as long as the cash keeps rolling in.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:33(Edit)
To be honest, I’m uncomfortable with the whole ‘spiv’ thing full stop. Firstly, it smacks of Leggat and his ‘Odious Creep’ nonsense, if we constantly refer to someone by a supposedly witty nickname. Secondly, it undersells them. Spivs makes me think of Private Walker in Dad’s Army, a sort of oily character, but no more than that. It doesn’t make me think of someone prepared to stir up resentment to an extent that threats of violence to innocent parties are seen as a perfectly acceptable as long as the cash keeps rolling in.
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I agree. I do think our interlude has been funny, but it also highlights how meaningless and obfuscatory name calling can be.
After tonight, let’s retire the word along with the JT & CG insults.
Clean up our act in fact with a bit of Spiv & Polish 🙂
I blame Goosy …..
justshatered says:
Sunday, February 10, 2013 at 19:42
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Just a small point JS – the £50M that David Murray introduced into RFC(IL) “from his own companies” was actually monies borrowed from Bank of Scotland. So credit where it’s due – Peter Cummings supplied the cash, not David Murray.
smartie1947 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:13
To be honest, I’m uncomfortable with the whole ‘spiv’ thing full stop. Firstly, it smacks of Leggat and his ‘Odious Creep’ nonsense, if we constantly refer to someone by a supposedly witty nickname. Secondly, it undersells them. Spivs makes me think of Private Walker in Dad’s Army, a sort of oily character, but no more than that. It doesn’t make me think of someone prepared to stir up resentment to an extent that threats of violence to innocent parties are seen as a perfectly acceptable as long as the cash keeps rolling in.
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That is a fair point. Spiv’s tend to offer people things like cheap cigarettes and booze, provided there’s not too many questions where they came from. I’m not saying that’s right, but they tend to be harmless for the most part, except unto themselves, and they will always find willing buyers, who again only really put themselves at risk.
The rhetoric coming from Ibrox is not that of a Spiv standing in the corner of a bar doing his business. It is more like that of people who when they enter a bar have many people deciding to take their custom elsewhere, because they know there will almost certainly be trouble at some point.
Juventus, that’s the team who were demoted to serie b and stripped of two titles for match fixing.
It’s good to see they are making new friends.
Good Evening.
There are a number of interesting points which jump out at me from this well written leader article.
Regrettably I am not really able to stay online and enter into a debate as such and so have to spout my views all at once unfortunately– so here goes.
First of all the point that TSFM is able to write that whilst he is a Celtic Fan he is not necessarily enamoured of all that Celtic PLC do is perhaps of the utmost significance in this debate in many respects.
The very idea takes me back to just what is the football fan? Are they mere paying customers who pay for a seat? Well I am a reasonably frequent paying customer of British Airways– on occasion I am a fan of British Airways — or I at least favour their offer in preference to the alternative — but I would hardly call myself a devotee of BA and certainly feel I have the right to criticise certain aspects of how the company is run and how it effects me. Their practices are sometimes idiotic and appalling– and I tell them that– but I still use their seats.
The Football Fan is obviously not so detached as a paying customer as no matter what team we support we invest more than just hard cash– we all make an emotional investment in what we perceive as “our club” or “our team”.
Even so– it is still the right of every fan to question or criticise the running of your own club especially if you think that the way the running of the club is potentially damaging– whether that be in the short or long term.
What many Rangers fans– rightly or wrongly—- seem to object to is that the fact that there seems to be an entire bevvy of fans of other clubs who see fit to comment on how their club is being run– and naturally they object to this. I can see the logic in that.
However, the counter position is that these fans of other clubs are up in arms about who and how a Rangers Football Club in any form is run—– if it is the case that the running of that club impacts on these other fans and their team or club.
There can be no complaint if any Rangers team buys players and beats the living bejaysus out of any team in any of the Scottish divisions if it is clear that in so doing that Rangers team are subject to all the same rules, regulations and compliance as every one else.
Unfortunately, there is a feeling abroad that this is not the case and so the online forums are full of people expressing concern about the manner in which Rangers– whether that be old co or new co— have been run in the past and are being run now.
The leader article makes the point that Rangers fans themselves should welcome the scrutiny that their club is under as such scrutiny will serve to warn them of any transgressions being inflicted on them by those who are in charge of and who own the club they support.
Again I can see the logic in that argument too.
However, we are really all missing a point here and that is the legal position of the SFA.
The SFA is a governing body–it sets out rules and compliance regulations– some of which it effectively delegates through the SPL and the SFL— although ultimately it is the controlling and appellate body with the final say. The SFA are also the practical arm of UEFA and FIFA in the administration and compliance of their rules.
Yet, here there is a major problem because both the vociferous Rangers fan– and indeed The Rangers Football Club itself— and the fans of many other clubs — have all said in the last twelve months that they just do not trust the SFA to administer the game at all.
When you read this morning that Whyte may have told the SFA that he had been disqualified as a director and therefore he will not pay his fine–no matter how unlikely that may seem do any of us know this not to be the case? Or to put it another way— do any of us think that the issue of his disqualification could have been raised at some point informally and so leave Whyte & co with the impression that they had disclosed all that they should?
Possibly— I don’t know but bear in mind that this is the same SFA who seemed to be saying at one point that a new Rangers could remain in the SPL– who seem to have implied that to Bill Miller and possibly others– the same SFA who were party to a plan which seemed to allow a New Rangers to start straight back in the SPL– provided every one else agreed and who thought that everyone else would so agree. The same SFA who told everyone that no Rangers spelt disaster for everyone else.
In short, can that SFA and its administrators honestly say that they have the trust of anyone?
I have no doubt that on one view David Murray is mostly responsible for this mess,although he was ably assisted in the end by Craig Whyte. As for Charles Green and his crew– well they bought what they bought and they play where they play and they earn what they earn by way of gate receipts.
But were they lead to believe something else by this same SFA/SPL cabal who at the very outset said to all and sundry there would be doom gloom and despair if the new Rangers were not allowed to return to SPL duty?
I think that is possible– and in part that is why I think that while there has undoubtedly been dreadful management at Ibrox in the past— there has been even more dreadful management at the SFA and the SPL,
These bodies are licensing bodies. They have written procedures and rules in place and you must comply with these rules in order to get the go ahead to play football each and every year.
Further, in complying with these rules, clubs will no doubt make undertakings and promises, provide figures and projections, and agree to comply with various rules and so on throughout the season.
While that is all very well, unless the licensing body enforces the rules, carries out checks against the undertakings given, ensures compliance of the rules throughout the season, checks that the financial projections given are actually working out as we go along– then to be frank the rules count for nothing because no one is bothering to see if they are being broken.
So for example, If Charles Green provided a business plan and projections ( as one must presume he did ) as part of his submission to obtain provisional and then associate membership of the SFA– then surely it is easy enough for the SFA to obtain management accounts from Rangers and then check these against the projections given?
Provided the two sets of figures check out within a reasonable tolerance– then any question about financial stability can be nipped in the bud by way of a “currency” certificate from the governing body which would prove that everything in the garden at the current time is rosy.
End of debate and speculation and we can all go back to talking about something else— like Fitba!!
However—- Mr Green seems to say many things to many people and the governing body stays silent.
Alistair Johnson previously said that the governing body wrote to Rangers and asked about taxes due, reported EBT’s etc. Rangers replied and never even got an acknowledgement but a EUFA licence arrived through the post. Beyond that– the governing body stayed silent.
Rangers PLC posted horrific losses year after year between 2001 and 2006 I think– and when you drilled down into those accounts there were some real questions in there that were never asked. The Governing Body– despite having an “audit”—- function stayed silent!!!
—— and ultimately loads of folk who invested in Rangers lost their money!!!
That same licensing body– when acting and functioning properly— should be there to protect the fans and the interests of all clubs— including Rangers fans. Accordingly if a club goes way off its financial projections etc or runs up losses which the SFA is aware of then it should call the club to account. If a club embarks upon a series of PR releases that misleads or could mislead its own fans, shareholders, creditors, suppliers etc then the licensing body should call that club to account and ask for clarification and an explanation— It should not sit back and say nothing as it did for far too long in the days of Craig Whyte— that way perdition for everyone lies.
Further contrast the current attitude of the press towards Rangers at the moment. Suddenly there are questions being asked about Rangers finances and their PR releases. Some of the articles are scathing and hard hitting– some might even say that some articles are distastefully rude.
Yet compare that with times past.
Away back in the distant past an article appeared in the Daily Record where it was revealed that Sir David Murray had poached Kenny Dalglish as a super scout and that Kenny was set to be given an £80m budget to lure the very best to Ibrox. The article went on to say that the likes of Paolo Maldini, Jurgen Klinsman, Frank Rijkaard, and half a dozen other stellar names were on the shopping list.
At the time of the article, the banking facilities available to the entire Murray Group stood at £80 Million so it seems inconceivable that SDM was suddenly going to double his entire group borrowings to allow King Kenny to go and buy football players. Further no question was asked about where the money was coming from.
Yet, no one questioned the article, no one pointed out how unlikely the financials were or how unlikely it was that any of the players mentioned were going to sign for Rangers.
In the end, Dalglish was not so appointed and not a single player mentioned in the article came to Ibrox either then or at any time in the future. The story proved to be pure and utter bunkum….. but I believe that the following years accounts reported that season ticket sales were stronger than ever.
And no one in charge of Scottish Football said anything.
The Murray influenced press said nothing and continued to say nothing ad infinitum until such time as we all end up in the current mess.
That is why there should be reasoned debate and discussion– no more no less.
slimshady61 says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 21:57
Point taken about the £50M however that tends to re-enforce the arguement that that they were spending money that they simply did not have.
Oh and in my initial calculations I also missed out the JJB money which I seem to remember as being heralded, particularly by Chick Young, as being an incredible bit of business. That probably tips the total over the £150M mark.
The issue with the JJB deal actually has a link also to the new club issue in that the administrators had to go to court and argue that ‘The Rangers’ were a new company to enable them to break the deal and get Sports Direct in.
Funny though I don’t seem to remember that bit of information being widely reported in the press.
As an aside a few days after that court ruling JJB went into administration and over a thousand jobs went down the pan. Another domino to fall in this debacle.
Spivs harmless? A fictional character, I grant you, but look at Harry Lime in ‘The Third Man’ – it depends what they are peddling. If it is low quality drugs to sick children (as in Lime’s case) or financial posturing cut with rabble rousing nonsense (to give another random example), they often leave a trail of very real and damaged victims.
Yes, the spiv thing is out of order and unnecessary, although I sincerely believe Mr Green would look well in the pin-stripe suit and hat worn by a disguised Inspector Clouseau.
Now, before BRTH’s missive derails the stupidity forever, can I point out that a porpoise isn’t a fish. There are marillions of Fishes, but a porpoise isn’t one of them.
Sorry– typing on a mini diddy computer so please forgive the occasional typo and the syntax there– I am now away for a pint as it has been a long enough day!!
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 22:20
In short, can that SFA and its administrators honestly say that they have the trust of anyone?
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They have the trust of no-one albeit for many different reasons. How on earth we can ever move on from that position is completely beyond me.
Celtic Paranoia (@CelticParanoia) says:
Monday, February 11, 2013 at 17:49
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valentinesclown says:
Sunday, February 10, 2013 at 18:07
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Sorry for repeating a link, from the previous blog/post but I think this is a significant possible turning point from the Daily Record.
http://t.co/4yHHXKgk
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Story now removed from their website. The turning point didn’t last long. They remain a shameless pro-Rangers propaganda rag whatever spin they put on a particular article and will always will be
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Link still works for me – maybe paranoia getting the better of you 😉
However in relation to the story it has more than a few echoes of the sentiments in James Forrest’s excellent (if a little long) blog “Living on a Prayer”. Now that would be quite an ironic turnaround for the DR – from Traynor(c)s rantings about social media blogger to pieces which reflect exactly the points those very same bloggers are making!
Whether that’s the case or just a coincidence the article seems to me to be a conscious decision to try and open the eyes of those Rangers followers blinded by Greens bluster to wake up and smell the coffee.