The following post comes about as a result of the research and work put in by Auldheid.
He has drafted the submission to FIFA detailed below after closely looking at their rules, and taking on board the points contained in the Glasnost “Golden Rule” blog. TSFM has attached the blog’s name to the report since the overwhelming – but not unanimous – view of our readership is that the SFA and the SPL have again gotten themselves into an almighty and embarrassingly amateur fankle over this issue.
We believe that tens of thousands of football fans will be lost to the game if the outcome of the LNS enquiry is not perceived to be commensurate with the scope and extent of the rule breaking that LNS found had taken place. In view of this, we believe that we have to do what we can to explore all possibilities for justice for those who love the game so much and yet are utterly disillusioned by recent events.
LNS is not being questioned here. He has found that RFC were guilty as charged by the SPL.
What is being questioned is the SFA’s crucial – and seemingly conflicted – role in the LNS enquiry, as is the effectiveness of LNS’s recommended sanction as either a deterrent or an upholder of sporting integrity.
It came to our notice last week that FIFA have created a web site at
https://www.bkms-system.net/bkwebanon/report/clientInfo?cin=6fifa61&language=eng
that tells us that FIFA have implemented a regulatory framework which is intended to ensure that all statutory rules, rules of conduct and internal guidelines of FIFA are respected and complied with.
In support of that regulatory framework FIFA have set up the above site as a reporting mechanism by means of which inappropriate behaviour and infringements of the pertinent regulations may be reported.
FIFA say that their jurisdiction encompasses misconduct that (1) relates to match manipulation; (2) occurs in or affects more than one confederation, so that it cannot adequately be addressed by a single confederation; or (3) would ordinarily be addressed by a confederation or association, but, under the particular facts at issue, has not been or is unlikely to be dealt with appropriately at that level.
Discussions arising from the previous blog on TSFM, “Gilt Edged Justice”, which was published after Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) ruled on the registration of Rangers players who had contractual side letters that were not disclosed to the SFA as part of their registration, suggest that there may be possible unfortunate consequences for football arising from the evidence presented by the SFA to the LNS enquiry that informed its findings on registration and consequent eligibility. There is also a question of the propriety of the SFA providing evidence on an issue which could have had a negative impact on them had it been found that they had failed to carrying out their registration duties with due rigour over a period of ten years when the existence of EBTs was known to officials within the SFA.
On the basis that the LNS findings require that registration rules be clarified by FIFA and rewritten globally if necessary to remove any ambiguity and under clause 3 above, this appears to be an issue that the FIFA should examine and that the SFA cannot address.
The following report has therefore been submitted by TSFM on behalf of its readers to FIFA drawing on the content and debate following the “Gilt Edged Justice” blog in respect of the possible footballing consequences of the LNS enquiry.
The hope is that by speaking for so many supporters, FIFA will give the TSFM submission some weight, but individuals are free of course to make their own points in their own way. We await acknowledgement of the submission.
The report Submitted to FIFA is as follows;
This report was prepared on behalf of the 10,000-strong readership of The Scottish Football Monitor at http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/
It is our belief that FIFA general rules of conduct were breached by the SFA and their employees in both creating and then advising The Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) enquiry into the non disclosure of full payment information to the Scottish Football Association (SFA) by Rangers F.C during a period of player registration over 10 years from 2000.We believe that although the issue has been addressed by the SFA the particular facts at issue suggest that it has not been dealt with appropriately and we therefore ask FIFA to investigate. The facts at issue are that the process and advice given failed to uphold sporting integrity, and that a conflict of interest was at play.
We believe the advice provided and the enquiry set up, where SFA both advised and is the appellant body, breaches not only the integrity the registration rules were intended to uphold, but also totally undermines the integrity of the SFA in breach of General Conduct rules 1, 2 and 4. (See below.)
1. Firstly we believe that the advice supplied to LNS that an incorrectly registered player was eligible to play as long as the registration was accepted by the SFA however unwittingly, undermines the intent of the SPL/SFA rules on player registration and so undermines the integrity of football in three ways.
• It incentivises clubs to apply for a player to be registered even if they know that the conditions of registration are not satisfied, in the hope that the application will somehow ‘slip through the net’ and be granted anyway (in which case it will be valid until revoked).
• A club which discovers that it has made an error in its application is incentivized to say nothing and to ‘let sleeping dogs lie’ – because it would be in a better position by not confessing its mistake.
• And most importantly, it incentivises fraud. By deliberately concealing relevant information, a club can ensure that a player who does not satisfy the registration conditions is treated as being eligible – and therefore allowed to play – for as long as a period as possible (potentially his entire spell with the club). Then, if the club is no longer around when the deception is finally discovered, imposing meaningful sanctions may be impossible.
2. Secondly we believe the process followed was inappropriate due to a Conflict of Interest. Had the LNS enquiry not ruled on the basis of advice supplied by The SFA, they and those persons advising the LNS enquiry, could have been subjected to censure and the SFA to potential compensation claims had LNS found that the players were indeed ineligible to play and results then been annulled as was SFA practice when an ineligible player played.
3. Finally we contend that a law should not be applied according to its literal meaning if to do so would lead to an absurdity or a manifest injustice or in this case loss of football integrity.
See http://glasnostandapairofstrikers.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/gilt-edged-justice/4. We therefore ask FIFA to investigate both the process used and advice given to Lord Nimmo Smith to satisfy themselves that FIFA’s intentions with regard to upholding the integrity of football under FIFA rules have not been seriously damaged by the LNS findings and also to reassure Scottish football supporters that the integrity of our game has not been sacrificed by the very authority in whose care it has been placed to promote the short term cause of commercialism to the games long term detriment.
General Rules of Conduct (These are taken from the FIFA web site itself and can be found as part of completing the submission process)
1. Persons bound by this Code are expected to be aware of the importance of their duties and concomitant obligations and responsibilities.
2. Persons bound by this Code are obliged to respect all applicable laws and regulations as well as FIFA’s regulatory framework to the extent applicable to them.
3. N/A
4. Persons bound by this Code may not abuse their position in any way, especially to take advantage of their position for private aims or gains.
http://t.co/a8n18G3G6n
Mr Alastair being interviewed and talking about Charles
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:59
Title deeds for the club’s property indicate that the assets were transferred to Sevco Scotland on June 15 last year, the day after the oldco failed to secure a company voluntary arrangement (CVA) route out of administration.
——
Someone’s finally seen the title deeds, then, at least.
I love the springtime, even a belated one, the bulbs begin to produce flowers, the trees come alive with blossom, and, in what is fast becoming a tradition, the Govan team daily flagellate themselves in pubic for us all to enjoy.
For any bears looking in, you can’t blame the haters for any of this, indeed the haters have pointed out the precarious nature of your position and no just the haters! Yooz should really have listened, but yooz cudnae wate, yooz bot seezon tikets, yooz bot the piez, yooz bot a pup!
spanishcelt says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:38
spanishcelt,
I would imagine this happens on a great many occasions where even well learned people fail to realise things are very different, in terms of law, north of the border. I doubt there’s many spivs well versed in anything other than how to cheat, get away with, and get out at the right time, and consider the law, any law, to be something to use to their own advantage. It’s so nice when they get caught out 🙂
I hope everything went well in your career after your settlement, and all credit to you for standing up to the chancers down south. A wee bit of a ‘working class hero’ in my book 😉
arabest1 says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:06
…flagellate themselves in pubic …
——
Arab, thank you for that mental image of the Rangers support – who were never the prettiest, even without the pubic flagellation.
allyjambo says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:33
——————————————————————–
The link below is a reasonable report of the Dundee situation which wasn’t a running battle as portrayed in the MSM. It was basically drunken Celtic fans acting in a disgusting manner and fighting each other. It may well have been that some were trying to stop the other misbehaving but I don’t know if that is the case. However the total arrest were 5 and one of them was a Dundee supporter which trends to place the incident in context.
http://www.scotzine.com/2012/12/serious-disorder-at-dundee-match-as-celtic-fans-fight-among-themselves/
Sectarian singing not being dealt with at Berwick and elsewhere is a disgrace especially with the charges brought against Lennon. But back to the Green Brigade. I’m afraid I can’t accept it as just a peaceful protest and I do question their actions. They decided not to seek permission for a protest march and publicly challenged StrathPol that they wouldn’t be able to stop them marching.
I’m afraid that when organisers of any kind of action act like that it sets the scene for confrontation and that’s what happened. I think the organisers put a lot of very young fans in harms way through their actions and I cannot condone that. I have taken part in many unofficial demos/marches in my life many of which have turned violent but I always believed the cause was just enough to support my actions.
But I would never have moaned about being kettled for a very short time mainly because the cops were never quick enough or clever enough to be able to kettle us in the first place. Arranging a publicly known assembly point and telling the cops that possibly thousands of people will be marching – presumably in an organised way – is begging the cops to take action and nip it in the bud and they did.
And what lovely media coverage there would have been for the cause with cops cracking a few heads with batons and the police horses charging – the organisers must have been pretty disappointed at the end result if that was their intention. The legislation must be resisted and I truly believe that Celtic and its management is a vital component of that campaign and while the Green Brigade play politics for their own ends and benefit and put youngster in physical danger then they do their club and other football fans a disservice.
allyjambo says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:33
9 0 i
Rate This
In short, my point was; why, in a season of relative calm in the football grounds of Scotland, did the police, or their governing authorities, feel the need to make an example of, what I believe, was a hitherto peaceful gathering of Celtic fans. In the meantime, no meaningful action is taken, by anyone, over the atrocious sectarian singing by TRFC fans at grounds throughout Scotland, and even in England.
——————————————————————————-
While we’re at it how can the SFA dig up Neil Lennon for directing one or two sweary bad words at another player but can find Charles Green’s statements accusing the SFA of bias for pursuing a “pre-determined” as not proven in terms of bringing the game into disrepute?
The SFA panel that returned this verdict was chaired by one Lord Nimmo Smith incidentally
Not to mention, not a peep about Ally’s “who are these people?” tantrum. I recall Neil Lennon was scathingly accused of putting the lives of referees in mortal danger with his comments a couple of years ago by football authorities and media lapdogs alike.
This Old Firm bias eh?
Having just written this on The Video Celts blog
http://videocelts.com/2013/04/blogs/fans/why-baw-is-burst-why-scottish-football-cant-be-fixed/comment-page-1#comment-512421
I thought it relevant here with regard to SFA Reform.
Two bodies are required. One to govern the game the other to run it.
The SFA are the former, the leagues the latter (as a single body).
The SFA’s role is to protect the game’s integrity, the SPL’s is to provide a product that is commercially succesfull by being entertaining at a reasoanable cost that does not impinge on sporting integrity. (No TV deals that depend on a club not being relegated or going bust).
The Leagues provide a service to their “customers” – the supporters and clubs up their customer relationship game at all levels commensurate with their income.
The SFA provide a service to both leagues and club “customers” via policies and procedures properly carried out on club licensing, refereeing, disciplne and provide assurances via those properly managed routes that the league competitions are fair.
The SFA do so by closely examining then publishing financial data supplied by clubs to gain a licence (the latter they have just embarked on to be fair) and split the supply of referees, which is the SFA job via recruitment and training from the performance monotoring which is the customers (i.e leagues) responsibility.
The transformation from an Autocratic Culture where no one (SFA or Leagues) is answerable to anyone to a Service Culture is done by methods similar to market testing used to transform government organisations from being authorities to service providers.
Basically all stakeholders get together to define what kind of service is being delivered and (key) how and by whom the delivery will be measured. It is called Service Level Agreements in the market testing industry.
Delivery is measured and penalties imposed where the level falls short. The SFA charge the leagues for what they provide and the leagues pay when satisfied levels are met or withold payment if not satisfied.
The SFA then would be free for example to obtain referees from anywhere to satisfy their customers, breaking the incestous relationship that currently exists leading to the deterioration Neil Lennon complained about and could pay for professional referees for games with big money at stake.
It is not the personnel that need to change per se, but their thinking and attitude towards what they do.
Getting all stakeholders around the table though will be difficult although the latest to emerge from the ongoing Rangers fiasco suggests the SFA can no longer resist a root and branch examination of their role and purpose in the Scottish game.
justshatered says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:29
5 0 Rate This
Can someone answer this question regarding the administration:
When the CVA failed and the shares for RFC reverted to Whyte, as stated by Green, was it legal for Duff and Phelps to sell the assets out from under the current owner?
I’m unsure how an administration works.
One way or another this is going to look bad for Duff and Phelps as the guy who brought them in now seems to be in cahoots with the next buyer while other bidders are ignored and shunted aside.
=========================================
Just for clarification.
The CVA proposal was never, ever appeared to be a realistic option. If you were to try to manufacture a model situation in which HMRC would refuse to agree to an administrator’s proposal, you wouldn’t have to bother: the Rangers CVA proposal is that model case.
Mr Whyte’s shares were not transferred to Mr Green: they were never going to be transferred. It appears from today’s revelations that the only scenario that Mr Whyte, Mr Green and Messrs Whitehouse & Clark were considering, was the transfer of the club’s assets to a company owned (in part) by Mr Whyte.
In theory, yes an administrator can (and should) sell the assets of an insolvent company without consulting the owner(s) of that insolvent company.
In this case – if the reports are correct – Duff & Phelps actually sold the assets very cheaply to a company owned by the principle owner of the company in administration. They appear to have been acting exactly in accordance with the wishes of that owner.
For those of you who don’t go on to CQN here’s what Paul Brennan is saying today.
===========================
Green, Whyte, Sevco 5088 and the St Mirren link
05th April 2013
22
After 11 months of innuendo and unanswered questions the Sun today publish confirmation that Charles Green was a frontman for Craig Whyte. The news will be a bombshell to many but few in the Celtic online community will be surprised.
The Sun today report that Craig Whyte and partner, Aiden Earley, are majority shareholders in Sevco 5088 Ltd, the company which bought Ibrox, Murray Park and other assets from Rangers’ administrators’ Duff and Phelps.
They also claim Charles Green subsequently transferred Sevco 5088’s assets into Sevco Scotland Ltd, which Whyte said was done without his permission. Green was given considerable opportunity to respond to the claims but despite pages of comment does not deny the central claim that Whyte and Earley were majority shareholders in the company which purchased assets from Duff and Phelps. The rest of the story amounts to little more than gratuitous detail.
Where does this leave things?
Whyte’s QC has started legal action, seeking control of Ibrox and other assets.
Duff and Phelps (presumably unknowingly) discretely sold Rangers assets to the man who appointed them and who is currently subject to an investigation into the collapse of the club. Rangers’ liquidators, BDO, can cancel the sale of assets and claim them for creditors if they believe it was not conducted in an appropriate manor – and this is anything but appropriate.
When Sevco 5088 Ltd was negotiating with the SFA Green assured the SFA that Whyte was not part of his consortium. This was a condition of the Newco being granted associate membership. The SFA are now duty bound to investigate (although with president Campbell Ogilvie in place make no assumptions here).
What has any of this to do with St Mirren, you may ask?
St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, appears to have made a pact with Charles Green, who I hear has given Green his assurance that he will vote against league reconstruction plans, which the SPL are due to vote on 15 April.
Questions like who owns Ibrox, whether the Newco is a legitimate associate membership of the SFA, whether BDO will declare the sale to Sevco 5088 void, in the event this circus makes it to next season, whether anyone will buy tickets to the shambles, all remain unanswered….
…but Stewart Gilmour is making plans with Charles Green. St Mirren fans should be outraged. Mr Gilmour should be careful who he does deals with.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:59
The only director listed at Companies House for Sevco 5088 Ltd is Charles Green, while he signed off on a proposal to have the firm dissolved at the end of 2012, although it has not yet been struck off.
Any reason why? Did anyone ask the question?
Mr Green has branded Mr Whyte “delusional” over the claims and stated in an interview with the Scottish Sun that his colleague Imran Ahmad had told the former owner “anything he wanted to hear” in order to secure the club’s assets.
Isn’t this the same tactic that CG uses with “Ra Berz?”
rantinrobin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:04
Thanks for that, rantinrobin. The once Super Ally looks a rather deflated man; though, I think, handled himself, in terms of his demeanour, as well as some of his word, in a more dignified way than he ever has during this whole saga. I almost, almost I say, felt sorry for him 🙁
Having written this on the Video Celts Blog comments with reference to SFA reform, I thought it worth repeating here.
Two bodies are required. One to govern the game the other to run it.
The SFA are the former, the leagues the latter (as a single body).
The SFA’s role is to protect the game’s integrity, the SPL’s is to provide a product that is commercially successfull by being entertaining at a reasonable cost that does not impinge on sporting integrity. (No TV deals that depend on a club not being relegated or going bust).
The Leagues provide a service to their “customers” – the supporters and clubs up their customer relationship game at all levels commensurate with their income.
The SFA provide a service to both leagues and club “customers” via policies and procedures properly carried out on club licensing, refereeing, disciplne and provide assurances via those properly managed routes that the league competitions are fair.
The SFA do so by closely examining then publishing financial data supplied by clubs to gain a licence (the latter they have just embarked on to be fair) and split the supply of referees, which is the SFA job via recruitment and training from the performance monotoring which is the customers (i.e leagues) responsibility.
The transformation from an Autocratic Culture where no one (SFA or Leagues) is answerable to anyone to a Service Culture is done by methods similar to market testing used to transform government organisations from being authorities to service providers.
Basically all stakeholders get together to define what kind of service is being delivered and (key) how and by whom the delivery will be measured. It is called Service Level Agreements in the market testing industry.
Delivery is measured and penalties imposed where the level falls short. The SFA charge the leagues for what they provide and the leagues pay when satisfied levels are met or withold payment if not satisfied.
The SFA then would be free for example to obtain referees from anywhere to satisfy their customers, breaking the incestous relationship that currently exists leading to the deterioration Neil Lennon complained about and could pay for professional referees for games with big money at stake.
It is not the personnel that need to change per se, but their thinking and attitude towards what they do.
Getting all stakeholders around the table though will be difficult although the latest to emerge from the ongoing Rangers fiasco suggests the SFA can no longer resist a root and branch examination of their role and purpose in the Scottish game.
For some reason I cannot post link to the article I responded to but readers will get the gist.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4874577/EXCLUSIVE-The-Whyte-Tapes-Recording-1.html
second recording up now under heading
consider us your reps on Rangers board
next one up at 4pm
Cheers Andrew. Was about to post the same. Over to the Buddies.
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:19
Absolutely.
As has been discussed before. The plan was always to save “the business” and nothing to do with the company. There was never any thought to what was in the interests of the creditors. The whole point was to keep A Rangers (as Whyte said) playing at Ibrox, still in the SPL but now free from debt and things like interest payments.
This was attempted by Whyte, Green and Duff & Phelps acting together.
All this latest story has done is provided further corroboration of that. The fact that Green may have been trying to shaft Whyte at the same time really doesn’t change what they were attempting. What would have worked if the fans had not prevented the SPL from doing it.
The whole thing has been absolutely shameful, immoral and probably illegal. Whyte buying the assets from the company he placed into administration, at a fraction of their value, using a front man. With the losers being the creditors, including every UK taxpayer. Only to be shafted by Green who clearly fancied a nice debt free Rangers, playing in the SPL.
The whole thing and everyone involved are a disgrace.
ecobhoy says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:13
ecobhoy,
Thanks for updating me on these incidents. Living in England and unable to rely on the MSM (so I ignore it) my knowledge of what goes on in Scotland is limited, mainly, to forums like this, and, of course, everyone sees things with different eyes. I suppose it’s the inevitable result of poor legislation, someone is going to challenge it, and not always in the best of ways. So the police are going to react, and also not always in the best of ways.
allyjambo says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:08
I hope everything went well in your career after your settlement,
………………………………………………………………………………………
Since you ask, I spent it all on Prostitutes, horses and cheap vodka, lost my house, kids and wife, contracted several STD’s and sclerosis of the liver before robbing a bookies office and getting 15 years for armed robbery but it was more the moral of the story I was reflecting on! 🙂
Seriously, it couldnt have went better, it let me set up in business and eventually retire to Spain before I was 50, thank you Scots law!!! and how sweet it would be if the same old thing helped trip up Charlie boy now.
Still, in the land of the BBC, nothing has happened today WRT Craig Whyte and Charles Green.
Hmmmn.
I believe the last time an employee of Rangers was caught on tape saying things he shouldn’t have, the result was summary dismissal.
Evidently, Mr Green considered a taped recording to be sufficient evidence in that case.
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:36
Still, in the land of the BBC, nothing has happened today WRT Craig Whyte and Charles Green.
——
Perhaps The Soaraway put the word out that this was their “exclusive” that they paid good cash for, and they’ll be enforcing their copyright on it until later today / tomorrow morning.
peterjung1 says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 07:19
Surely these latest revelations once again call into serious question the SFA licensing process last summer:
What steps were taken to ensure Charles was a “fit & proper” person?
===========================================================================
He told them…
Carntyne Riddrie (@Riddrie) says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:43
0 0 Rate This
peterjung1 says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 07:19
Surely these latest revelations once again call into serious question the SFA licensing process last summer:
What steps were taken to ensure Charles was a “fit & proper” person?
===========================================================================
He told them…
—————————————————————-
Worse than that…
Duff & Phelps told them!!
.
🙂 : )
spanishcelt says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:35
Sheesh, no longer a ‘working class hero’ then 😉 Glad it all worked out for you, and the prozzies 🙂 and if you ever need a house-sitter in Spain…
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:36
Still, in the land of the BBC, nothing has happened today WRT Craig Whyte and Charles Green.
Hmmmn.
__________________________
Well I suggested to Jim Spence (and Jim Delahunt) they should check CQN….
chipm0nk says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:31
HirsutePursuit says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:19
The whole thing has been absolutely shameful, immoral and probably illegal. Whyte buying the assets from the company he placed into administration, at a fraction of their value, using a front man. With the losers being the creditors, including every UK taxpayer. Only to be shafted by Green who clearly fancied a nice debt free Rangers, playing in the SPL.
The whole thing and everyone involved are a disgrace.
=======================================
When you put it like that somebody is going to jail. More than one I suspect.
I’ve just listened to the sports news on BBC Scotland. Not a cheep about the Whyte/ Green spiv spat. Nothing to report.Zilch.
Move along now please,nothing to see here.
When you put it like that (the jail bit) it’ll be interesting which of the rats breaks cover for the lifeboat first.
I have a wonderful image from Ben Hur when the slaves (to the cause), shackled to the oars, despite them all seeing whats coming realise all they can do is paddle, and paddle hard.
Or revolt.
justshatered says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 13:29
One way or another this is going to look bad for Duff and Phelps as the guy who brought them in now seems to be in cahoots with the next buyer while other bidders are ignored and shunted aside.
Duff and Phelps may well be in this up to their necks. Is it all Project William? BDO will need to be pressured to make a statement
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9303670/Rangers-emails-shows-correspondence-between-Craig-Whyte-and-David-Grier-of-Duff-and-Phelps.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18268349
St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, appears to have made a pact with Charles Green, who I hear has given Green his assurance that he will vote against league reconstruction plans, which the SPL are due to vote on 15 April.
Questions like who owns Ibrox, whether the Newco is a legitimate associate membership of the SFA, whether BDO will declare the sale to Sevco 5088 void, in the event this circus makes it to next season, whether anyone will buy tickets to the shambles, all remain unanswered….
…but Stewart Gilmour is making plans with Charles Green. St Mirren fans should be outraged. Mr Gilmour should be careful who he does deals with.
_____________
surely charlie hasnt promosed to buy another 3k of season tickets like he offered last year
… “Kingy’s” article….
Can anyone point me in the direction of the column inches (around that time)where “Kingy” fully supported, pushed & defended bummers claims,? what with him being a good..good.. good.. very close.. ..very personal friend.With his insider knowledge,doing his mate & the assembled crowd of thousand (500mil) a favour.!
Using his journalistic skills,translating in detail what bummer actually meant when he did his Martin Luther bit..?
Bein so close,I am sure he, via bummer, could have legitimised & listed the detailed questions that all dead club fans wanted answers for at the time.!?
Incidently..the same answers that the various (truth centric) blogs,twitter etc have both known & suspected for almost 18 months..
Aye sure Ian…
“John Brown has been a contact and friend of mine for many years, that is how journalists operate. That’s a given here.”
Ha….a nest of vipers !!!! indeed..now that made me chuckle..
I think that you can be sure that this is project william, has it gone off the rails? Has the SFA the grounds or the balls to act?
allyjambo says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 14:23
The once Super Ally looks a rather deflated man; though, I think, handled himself, in terms of his demeanour, as well as some of his word, in a more dignified way than he ever has during this whole saga. I almost, almost I say, felt sorry for him.
===========================================================================
Sympathy for sneaky McCoist is, in my opinion, misplaced.
He has only toned down his boisterous remarks because facts emerged that were more and more difficult to refute.
He now looks like a punch drunk boxer.
No sympathy from this quarter.
St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, appears to have made a pact with Charles Green, who I hear has given Green his assurance that he will vote against league reconstruction plans, which the SPL are due to vote on 15 April.
Questions like who owns Ibrox, whether the Newco is a legitimate associate membership of the SFA, whether BDO will declare the sale to Sevco 5088 void, in the event this circus makes it to next season, whether anyone will buy tickets to the shambles, all remain unanswered….
…but Stewart Gilmour is making plans with Charles Green. St Mirren fans should be outraged. Mr Gilmour should be careful who he does deals with.
That is the problem with this forum, comments very often turn into anti Rangers rather than being concerned with the best way forward for Scottish football.
Who cares if St Mirren will be voting in the same way that Rangters would (if they had a vote). Most fans of all clubs do not want 12-12-18, but they seem more against any club voting to keep the status quo because of a perception that Rangers want it that way.
Club chairmen need to do what is best firstly for their club and seconfly for Scottish Football regardless of whether Rangers are in agreement or not, and if that means 12-12-18 then sobeit
spaldingbhoy says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 11:16
Senior says
Not that I think it will ever get there for obvious reasons , but wouldn’t it be really interesting to see all the major players in this “boorach” to actually have to go to a court and horror of horrors “swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth” . I would pay good money to see that, it might even restore our very own JC’s faith in the legal system .
======================================================================
do you think so?
imagine Laird Nummo Smythe as a judge?
at the start of todays proceedings, we call the case of…
erm…let me see…rangers football club, i meant…the rangers group plc…erm, no… i mean, wavetower…erm, no, i mean, the rangers football club plc, sorry, oh wait, is it rangers fc2012(IA}
, no…i mean rangers fc2012(IL) which is now oldco…i mean, i should say..which was oldco and is now…erm…newco…sevco…erm…sevco5088…erm…sevco scotland
…and erm..the rangers football club limited.a,a,a…ah, no… the newco, which …let me see…is…
erm…the rangers international football club…sorry, what time is it…is it lunch time yet….
now let me see here…erm…what day is it….erm, sorry, what was i saying there a minute ago…
oh, yes, i remember…
now before we go any further, i think i will need to hear from
the SFA judicial panel
the other SFA judicial panel
the other SFA independent panel
also, i may have to speak to laird hedge…i mean, at work, not in the lodge…i digress…
erm duff and phelps…BDO…the insolvency practitioners association,
i’m sure there were others i want to speak to…
oh yes, can we call the first witness please.
yes m’lud, who is it you would like to speak to first?
i think i will like to speak to my good learned friend and colleague, whom i greatly value his opinions
…donald finnlay QC.
donald, what is your learned opinion?
Not guilty your honour!
thank you. donald
on that basis
Not guilty…case dismissed.
…next
Grant King,
I take your comment on the anti rangers thing. You will forgive me for being a little defensive however. Clubs should vote as they wish – agreed – so why are pacts necessary? Secondly they should vote for the benefit of fitba. No question. What they shouldn’t face however is a vote that is a once only, timed offer for reasons that are at best unclear where the subsequent outcomes of voting in a certain way are only partially known, or at least made public. I’d put the Rangers proposed division for next year quite close to the top of that list, to be fair.
Carntyne Riddrie (@Riddrie) says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 15:42
That’s why I said almost, Carntyne 🙂 Things must be serious for McCoist, and TRFC, for me to even approach having sympathy for any of them! Maybe I’m just a sucker for a sad wee face. OK, in this case, as sad fat face – that looks just like this smiley 🙁
So another day….another shocking revelation in the never ending Ibrox story!
Am I surprised…nope!
Will this change anything…not sure? Although it should!
It really has been a scandalous affair from day one…and yet here we are more scandal being announced..
Yet we are led to believe by the Scottish MSM and others that Scottish Football really needs this toxic life draining creature to be unfairly promoted above it’s sporting merits? REALLY?
I am left asking myself…why was this released now? who would gain? Is it another big distraction?
jimlarkin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 15:48
erm…let me see…rangers football club, i meant…the rangers group plc…erm, no… i mean, wavetower…erm, no, i mean, the rangers football club plc, sorry, oh wait, is it rangers fc2012(IA}
, no…i mean rangers fc2012(IL) which is now oldco…i mean, i should say..which was oldco and is now…erm…newco…sevco…erm…sevco5088…erm…sevco scotland
…and erm..the rangers football club limited.a,a,a…ah, no… the newco, which …let me see…is…
erm…the rangers international football club…sorry,
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jim/M'Lud
Did you forget the company …sdfghjkl ? or similarly named existing CG co .
…as all previous should be taken into consideration,prior to sentencing 🙂
Sympathy for Mr McCoist after his rabble rousing, his “name names” call to arms and his putting other people’s lives at risk to such an extent that the Police were patrolling past their house every half hour.
I really don’t think so.
To me the cheeky chappie persona has been demonstrated, by him, to just be a public face. The reality is he was willing to say or do what it took to threaten and bully others and to use the baser element of the club’s support to do it.
He is not a victim or onlooker in this, he has been a part of it.
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4874783/EXCLUSIVE-The-Whyte-Tapes-Recording-3.html
last installment for today
paulmac2 says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 16:01
Paul,
I doubt we’d be surprised if this was all part of the overall plan, but I think it’s a sign that things are falling apart as one spiv(or group of spivs) tries to shaft another spiv. I think, when Green discovered how compliant and revering the bears were, and how eager to the SFA/SPL/MSM were to help him, he felt empowered to shaft Whyte knowing Whyte would be disbelieved by all. He didn’t allow for the tenacity of the ordinary fan now that we have the internet, nor did he realise that Whyte would stick around like shite to the sole of his shoe. (apologies to all for the language but how else do you describe this relationship between Green and Whyte?)
We had all wondered / despaired at the length of time the various formal investigations were taking, speculating that it would lead to those doing dirty deeds getting away with it. Maybe now CWs latest appearance will actually mean that any investigations will need to be a bit more transparent in dealing with the latest news, (well at least they are not over and can’t say its too late to consider any new information)..
Lets see…there was Lord Hodge & D&P, Strathclyde Police and CW, D&Ps professional body & D&P, BDO, ..,..have I missed anyone out? Oh, don’t forget the football authorities and the forthcoming licencing work.
Can open,… worms everywhere……..loving it .
Grant King says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 15:43
St Mirren chairman, Stewart Gilmour, appears to have made a pact with Charles Green, who I hear has given Green his assurance that he will vote against league reconstruction plans, which the SPL are due to vote on 15 April.
…………………………………………………………………….
A pact? assurances?
As long as Mr. Gilmour can explain what plans he is voting against and why…then as long as that vote is made in the interests of St. Mirren and as pre agreed pact then fine!
Snugas said
Grant King,
I take your comment on the anti rangers thing. You will forgive me for being a little defensive however. Clubs should vote as they wish – agreed – so why are pacts necessary? Secondly they should vote for the benefit of fitba. No question. What they shouldn’t face however is a vote that is a once only, timed offer for reasons that are at best unclear where the subsequent outcomes of voting in a certain way are only partially known, or at least made public. I’d put the Rangers proposed division for next year quite close to the top of that list, to be fair.
Clubs should vote as they wish – agreed
Why are pacts necessary – They should not be
They should vote for the benefit of football – Agreed
Should not face a vite that is once only – Agreed
That is the wueation that needs to be asked, why is it a one time only vote. make no bones about it the SPL rejected the SFL proposal so only the SPL is on the table. Why would that proposal be withdrawn if it is not voted threw this season? Why are the SPl so desperate to ensure the reconstruction goes ahead for next season?
The Nuclear Event
I do not know what information barcabhoy and his source were aware of that led to him posting on RTC about a nuclear event. For me, however, today’s revelations in The Sun are the irreparable cracks in the dam that keeps Sevco afloat. Irrespective of who owns what or who said what to whom, the money to be made by spivs in the Rangers/Sevco saga was always going to come from the bears. Buying season tickets, replica strips, merchandise etc. It has now been made clear to the bears that they were being stitched up by both Green & Whyte. For a few weeks now, more and more of them have started to ask questions. “What happened to the big name signings? Where is the Rangers shop in Glasgow Airport? When is Murray Park being renamed? What happened to the Ibrox naming rights?” Most importantly, some of them are starting to ask: “Whose name is on the title deeds of Castle Greyskull?”
None of these questions have been answered by Charles Green. To digress slightly, I can answer directly another question. “What happened to the players that Newcastle United were supposed to lend?” As you can guess from the monicker, I now live in Geordie land. For those unfamiliar to the city, Newcastle is a one-club place where the locals take a very keen interest in what happens at St. James’ Park. Any morsel of news (or indeed gossip) is mulled over and discussed at length. Since the rumour came out many moons ago of future English Premiership players plying their trade at Ibrox, I have kept a keen ear. Not once has there even been gossip about any player heading north to Ibrox.
I remember when Charles Green first arrived in Glasgow, flitting from safe house to safe house in order to protect himself from his own customers. What changed things was his repeated denial that he was co-operating with Craig Whyte. We now know that he was lying. He has admitted as much himself. Initially, the bears will want to believe him (who wants to admit to a hat-trick of being duped?) but even for the bluest of bluenoses, reality will sink in. I suspect he will once again become familiar with safe houses.
As much as the location of the nuclear blast is important, so is the timing. Craig Whyte has surfaced now, just before the Linfield friendly, the reconstruction votes and season ticket renewals. Already, some bears are up in arms at their money being taken without their consent (for the Linfield friendly). If Sevco really need this money, Whyte’s timing could hardly be worse: for the local bears, it is easy to pass on a meaningless mid-week friendly; for the Linfield fans, who would have to pay not only for the ticket but the travel and accommodation too (and since it is mid-week, probably take some precious holiday as well) … even easier to pass. Any profit he hoped for must now be vastly reduced.
As for reconstruction, I suspect Mr. Longmuir will be back-pedalling as fast as he can. This and the recent redundancies must show even him that there is no future at Ibrox. What a pity he pitched his camp at Ground Zero. As for the rest of the clubs, they must surely realise now that they cannot believe Mr. Green. According to his words in The Sun, he is quite happy to tell any lie to get what he wants. What price another no-confidence vote in the SFL chief executive?
As for season tickets, it would be madness for any bears to pay before they need to. There is no waiting list … but there are serious doubts over the board and the players for next season. I suspect the vast majority will once again wait until the last moment. Bang goes any profit for the spivs unless they get out now.
Captain Haddock says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 16:14
…………………………
Alex Salmond…HMRC intervention
Should have read…
As long as Mr. Gilmour can explain what plans he is voting against and why…then as long as that vote is made in the interests of St. Mirren and NOT as a pre agreed pact then fine!
Given that spivs tend to threaten spivs with court action all the time can we be sure that this is the unravelling of project william?
Presumably Whyte or Liberty Corporate had floating charges over the assets and was planning a prepack (14 days of admin)
How could the assets be transferred from sevco 5088 to sevco scotland and wouldn’t there be a paper trail?
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/47194895236/the-shadow-puppeteer#_=_
On Craig Whyte, Fran Sandaza and talking down the share price.
Cursory look at RM, and they don’t seem to be ‘too bothered’ ?
Extract from major post, [won’t post link].
=================================
“…Nonetheless, the media reports are irrelevant now we have heard the, ahem, “explosive allegations” for themselves. It’s all old hat and of no effect. Rangers fans should rest easy knowing man who got the Club for a quid and nearly killed it is himself an irrelevance. It would be a grave error of judgement listen to him ahead of the man who has been key in tidying up the mess left behind by Whyte.
In this case, Green really is better than Whyte, and don’t let the media distort the reality again. Just beware this imminent round of Rangers hating.”
==========================================
My interpretation: despite all the scandal yet to come out, just remember that in the great scheme of things, Green is “better” than Whyte.
Hobson’s choice ? 🙄
Richard Wilson (@timomouse) says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 16:38
========================
Good read.
One thing though, you don’t mention the legality of Craig Whyte trying to buy the assets of a company which he himself placed into administration and subsequent liquidation. Or that knowing this Charles Green was apparently willing to front for him. Or that the sale was at an incredibly low price for the apparent value. Or that Craig Whyte had his own advisers installed as administrators and it was ultimately them who agreed the sale price. Or that when they agreed that price, prior to the CVA failure, there was no chance of a “bidding war” to get the best result for the creditors.
BBC Scotland has finally caught up with the news! It only took until five o’clock to address the biggest football story of the week.
That is the problem with this forum, comments very often turn into anti Rangers rather than being concerned with the best way forward for Scottish football.
—————————————————————————————————-
There is more than a grain of truth in this statement Grant. The ‘good of Scottish football’ is not something that has ever been at the forefront of Murray, Whyte, or Greens thinking at any point in this debacle. The ‘good of Scottish football’ is at least the long term interest and concern of most of the posters on this blog. The ‘good of Scottish football’ is something that fans of RFC and now tRFC, fail to differentiate from what is good for their club, there in is the problem! Right from the start of this mess RFC/tRFC have abused the privileged position they occupy in Scottish football, Scottish society and most of all among their own followers. The behaviour of those in control of RFC/tRFC has been despicable and matched only by the sycophantic toadies of the press and the supine collaborators in the administrative structure. The rest of us have had to sit and watch as the game we love descended into farce. If tRFC vanished altogether and took their financial chicanery and sectarian hatred with them then they really would have done something for the ‘good of the Scottish football’.
dreddybhoy says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 16:37
8 0 Rate This
Given that spivs tend to threaten spivs with court action all the time can we be sure that this is the unravelling of project william?
Presumably Whyte or Liberty Corporate had floating charges over the assets and was planning a prepack (14 days of admin)
How could the assets be transferred from sevco 5088 to sevco scotland and wouldn’t there be a paper trail?
==============================================================
yea, spot on.
i seem to vaguely remember in emails released somewhere along the line…or maybe it was craigy bhoys recordings that he wanted duff n duffer, to do a “pre-pack” for £500k in order to ditch the debt and start again as if nothing happened.
i can’t remember why, the £500k was ditched. maybe duff n duffer double crossed whyte, who was double crossing muarray and green, and green was double crossing whyte with imran and octopus?
jimlarkin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 17:48
2 0 Rate This
dreddybhoy says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 16:37
8 0 Rate This
Given that spivs tend to threaten spivs with court action all the time can we be sure that this is the unravelling of project william?
Presumably Whyte or Liberty Corporate had floating charges over the assets and was planning a prepack (14 days of admin)
How could the assets be transferred from sevco 5088 to sevco scotland and wouldn’t there be a paper trail?
==============================================================
yea, spot on.
i seem to vaguely remember in emails released somewhere along the line…or maybe it was craigy bhoys recordings that he wanted duff n duffer, to do a “pre-pack” for £500k in order to ditch the debt and start again as if nothing happened.
i can’t remember why, the £500k was ditched. maybe duff n duffer double crossed whyte, who was double crossing muarray and green, and green was double crossing whyte with imran and octopus?
=====
I read somewhere that he fecked up the appointment of the administrators to do the prepack he would have had to do it as creditor?
Something very fishy going on
So after today’s wee revelations we are to believe that
CW the man who DUPED the highly successful and never done anything wrong knight of the realm was DUPED himself by the straight talking Yorkshire man with big hands .
CW the man who seems to have taped every conversation with all involved and we are to believe that HE was duped by CG
Whaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa
well put a dress on me and call me auntie as it seems I too have been duped as I thought they were all in this together to dupe HMRC, the sevco fans and the creditors
jimlarkin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 17:48
I think there is a paper trail, and it’s there for all to see. Everything was transferred from RFC to Sevco 5088, then to Sevco Scotland with Green signing the transfer to Sevco Scotland as he was the sole director, but according to Whyte, he was a shareholder (50%?) too. I think Whyte’s claim centres around the fact that, although sole director, he didn’t have the right to carry out this transfer without Whyte’s agreement and that he did, in fact, do so to get the assets for himself/his syndicate, and so renege on his agreement with Whyte. Green seems to think that by reneging on his agreement with Whyte he becomes some sort of good guy, rather than the charlatan this so readily proves him to be
My question tonight is
When will we see the original ragers men buyers get their hands on sevco ?,you know the ones that would have bought the old club if it did not have all the debt and HMRC hanging over it .
They are the ones I am interested in seeing and I hope HMRC are interested too
jonnyod says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 18:14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNQV45Wichw
Thinking out loud here. I’m veering away from my previously held opinion that this was all planned.
What I don’t quite get is why Mr Green says he was happy to tell Mr Whyte that the latter “was” Sevco 5088. Mr Whyte presumably had a reason for believing that Sevco was primarily owned by himself – although evidently not as a named director because he needed to stay undercover.
It does seem that Mr Whyte arranged this whole malarkey, that Mr Green was simply a frontman, but that this arrangement required Mr Green to stick to his word in agreements he’d made with Mr Whyte.
Evidently, as soon as Mr Green got his name on everything, he went back on his word and attempted to leave Mr Whyte in the lurch – knowing that he couldn’t do anything about it without going public and incriminating himself in a dodgy and possibly illegal deal. Mr Green held all the legal documents in his own name. Mr Whyte trusted in “honour among thieves”, and Mr Green “shafted” him.
Mr Whyte has simmered away, probably in the belief that revenge is a dish best tasted cold.
And now he’s playing his latest hand. His reputation can’t go much lower. But he knows well that Mr Green’s can.
Both men are flirting with the very real possibility of a jail term as far as I can see. I should imagine that Mr Green is currently enquiring after Mr Whyte’s bank account number, because he needs to put this one to bed very quickly indeed.
How I wish Mr Traynor was available to compose one of his nonsensical rants on the official Rangers website. 🙂
http://t.co/Pnh1yZnT7P
Charles Green statement
It doesn’t appear to me that the discussions giving Whyte his verbal contract took place in Scotland nor indeed do any of the clips posted so far state they took place in Scotland. The only reference to location in the Sun’s piece is a meeting in London but it is not clear either whether the taped discussions are from this meeting.
I’m no lawyer but earlier posts suggested the conversation had to take place in Scotland for evidence to admissible in court. If talks were outside Scotland, the tapes are useless and the content only causes Green some reputational damage.
Whyte has form in only threatening legal action. He needs a “side letter” or similar and if he hasn’t got any documentation, I’d say Green’s called his bluff.
Unless BDO and the SFA or SFL want to get involved (not holding my breath) I cant see this having much of an impact.
Shame.
rantinrobin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 18:44
http://t.co/Pnh1yZnT7P
Charles Green statement
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So Green has taken £137k from Whyte. That sounds like it could have been the consideration part of a contract to me.
Sugar Daddy says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 19:09
Surely BDO HAVE to get involved as there is a suggestion of collusion in the purchasing of the assets that creditors might have had a claim on?
That there was conversations was undeniable, the question is why, particularly between the two parties involved.
I doubt this can just be swept away if any creditor demands to know more.
Some interesting points raised here by James Forrest
http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/?p=636
Auldheid
How very apt on a day when the CEO of dignity r us says
Imran told CW what he wanted to hear to get his shares ,he might even have promised him 3 Russian women ,I don’t know and I don’t care .
shocking statement in any one’s book
Did anyone else hear Charles Green call Craig Whyte “that little google eye” live on SSN? The handbags are well and truly out!
rantinrobin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 18:44
http://t.co/Pnh1yZnT7P
Charles Green statement
———————————————————————————————
“It is also a great pity the media outlets continue to give him platforms.’
Did CG really say that? 🙂 🙂 🙂
Oh ma sides!!!!
He said: “Once again Craig Whyte has made serious allegations against the people who have committed themselves to rebuilding a Scottish institution which, almost single-handedly, he dragged towards the brink of oblivion.
“That he, after all he did to damage Rangers and the Club’s vast and loyal support,
=====================================================================
sorry, but what has a”vast and loyal support” got to do with anything?
the conservative and labour parties both have vast and loyal supporters and voters. but so what, what have they to do with what their party say or do, or what the media say about “the party”.
and by the way charles, whytw didn’t drag the “scottish institution towards the brink of oblivion”,
he took them – into oblivion – as rangers went bust – went out of business – gone to be replaced by
…sevco !
you said it yourself last year charles – or were you lying;
…if the cva fails, the club, the history has ceased, why would dave king want the cva to fail ?
rantinrobin says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 18:44
thx for posting that
Can someone help me here; why would someone with nothing to hide give an 1129-word reply to a, regardless of the methods used to bring it to light, spurious claim by a complete charlatan? That’s a lot of words apropos-nothing. Does Media House have the night off and we’re working on Oz time?
Does Media House have the night off and we’re working on Oz time?
———————————–
I believe that Jim Traynor is back in the country (if that’s what you’re referring to)
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 19:32
Thanks for that Auldheid. Loads of interesting points you mean!!
tomtomaswell says:
Friday, April 5, 2013 at 20:07
cheers – that is a PR-101 disaster that’s been posted on their homepage. One would expect the appropriate powers-that-be (i.e. law-enforcement and investigation; not the SFA/SPL/SFL) have had their ears pricked and are making a few calls. Then again…