A guest blog by Auldheid
In the previous blog (http://www.tsfm.scot/how-not-to-govern-scottish-football/), TSFM wrote to Harper Macleod raising questions on their advice supplied to the then SPL Board in February 2013 when the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision re use of EBTs and side letters was announced.
A reply was received from Mr McKenzie on 18th September the gist of which can be discerned in the following reply sent on 4th October.
Dear Mr McKenzie 4th Oct 2014
Thank you for your response of 18th September to my letter of 5th September regarding the consequences of information on the true nature of EBTs for Craig Moore, Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo being withheld from your good selves when establishing in 2012 the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the use of EBTs and side letters by Rangers FC from 1999.
In recognition of the points you made about publishing your responses on line, your letter of 18th September will not be published although readers of TSFM will be able to gather from this reply which is being published what those points were.
Anonymity.
It is a matter of real regret that not only was anonymity required, but that Harper MacLeod were used as a conduit to try and elicit a reply from the SPFL or SFA. In terms of anonymity there were three factors at play:
- Security. The individuals asking the questions are aware that any raised concerning Rangers can attract threats from the worst of the Rangers support. We know that they are a minority but nevertheless, as we have recently witnessed, some are ready to turn threat into action. It is a condemnation of Scottish society that fear has played its part in preventing the truth being revealed about Rangers FC’s use of EBTs since 1999.
- Collective. The Scottish Football Monitor is made up of supporters of many clubs in Scottish football and is in effect a collective. The letters reflect to a large extent the thinking and feelings of the majority of readers. If a name is required for any future correspondence from the SPFL or SFA, then it can be addressed to Mr John Macnab, and a Post Box address can be supplied if necessary in addition to this e mail address press@tsfm.scot.
- Accountability. The final factor is the most important because it is why Harper Macleod were approached. It was not just because you were responsible for commissioning the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, but because there is absolutely no form of direct accountability by either the SPFL or the SFA to the supporters of Scottish football clubs. Correspondence can be ignored or the content not fully addressed and the customer who pays the wages of both organisations has no means of redress at all. Had there been some oversight in say an Ombudsman type role, it would not have been necessary to involve Harper MacLeod and indeed your good self. We sincerely apologise for doing so along with our thanks for actually responding to our correspondence, but we would like the reasons for our approach being addressed by the clubs who make up both footballing authorities. We hope you pass this particular point on to both SFA and SPFL.
Provenance.
You ask what the provenance is of the information/evidencethat you were given. The answer is we do not know, it was taken from material uploaded mainly in June last year for purposes unknown. Whilst its provenance may be in doubt there is no question as to the veracity of the content of the material itself.
This, when put together, sets out the narrative that prompted our correspondence. This question of provenance simply looks like an excuse for football authority not investigating what the material suggests took place when Duff and Phelps were asked to supply all documents relating to EBTs (no distinction being made) from the inception of the SPL.
Even if the material itself could not be used directly, it should have prompted questions that would have either corrected the narrative or established that the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was indeed misled either by accident or design, when those documents were not supplied.
The SPFL must surely have the powers to seek the original documents from BDO and the SFA cannot be totally impotent in that regard either.
Then there is the personal knowledge of current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie to draw on. A simple statement explaining why he saw no reason to make any distinction between the irregular DOS REBTs that he launched in 1999 and the later MGMRT EBTs of which he was a beneficiary would surely help clear the air?
Existence of Side Letters.
We note that the Commission were aware of the existence of side letters to Moore, De Boer and Flo at the time of its decision of 28th February 2013 and these were taken into account when determining the appropriate sanction. The existence of side letters is not the issue that was raised in our previous correspondence, it was the nature of the EBTs that was the issue raised. In fact it would seem that the Commission themselves were confused by the switching from the irregular REBT ebts in 2002/03 to the MGMRT EBTs that are subject to further appeal with regard to regularity by HMRC.
The side letters to De Boer and Flo of 30th August and 23 November 2000 related to the DOS REBTs that they were both paid under. It is not known if they had subsequent side letters relating to the MGMRT EBTs , which is possible, but as set out in previous correspondence there were two distinctive types of EBTs and the side letters supplied relate to the earlier irregular type.
The position regarding the Moore EBT is interesting in that whatever EBT side letter was known to the Commission in February 2012 it could only have related to payments made to him under an accompanying side letter from the MGMRT ebts after 2002/03.
That Mr Moore was paid under the REBT scheme in 1999 is a matter of supplied evidence. However there is no record of any side letter in relation to the payment under the 1999 arrangement, which may or may not have been reported in the contract lodged with the SPL and SFA. It was the absence of any side letter in respect of this payment that prevented HMRC pursuing the tax due on it as they did for De Boer and Flo in what has become known as “the wee tax case. “ The evidence of deliberate concealment by the Murray Group of the side letters to De Boer and Flo allowed HMRC to seek repayment outside the normal 6 year time limit.
However the absence of a side letter or tax demand for Mr Moore does not mean this particular payment is not deserving of further scrutiny since
- It was an irregular payment that other clubs could not avail themselves of (as applies to the other two EBTs to De Boer and Flo)
- It is not known if it was reported to the SPL/SFA under the registration rules of that period.
Finally thank you for forwarding our letter of 5th September and previous correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer. Hopefully any further correspondence will be between him and ourselves, first to our email address, later to a PO Box if required.
It is the hope of all readers of The Scottish Football Monitor that the SFA will stop hiding behind the provenance excuse, which is destroying any semblance of integrity and proper governance of Scottish football and they will use their powers to properly acquire the information that will set the record straight and in doing so start to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football.
John Macnab
TSFM
Allyjambo says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:25 am
If that is an accurate quote, and it is the Record 🙄 , then it is quite a wow moment 😉 I wonder how the likes of Keith Jackson can spin it. Hopefully as I read more posts here I will be able to read the full story, and maybe find it’s not what the headlines would suggest 😯
_______________________________________________________
It’s in the Daily Mail, and penned by Stephen McGowan, the erstwhile Bangkok Bhoy – a fact which will be jumped on by the Bears no doubt 🙂
I’m with Ecobhoy on this. I think the Rangers’ Family tyres are being kicked here to gauge support for Govan Rangers (actually, I wonder if use of the name Glasgow Rangers is permissable?)
Of course it could be just a warning shot to those in control at Ibrox that a breakaway is a possibility, and that they should tread carefully.
If the latter is the real reason for Findlay and the red and Black Strips, it may be doomed from the start, but if the former, then perhaps a real desire to make a break is on the cards.
If the right people are behind it, I believe they would eventually win the war. Why, because the right people are not the self-entitled constituency, and can be patient building a club, and cherry picking the best of the old club’s traditions. Their existence would make it difficult for TRFC to get to where RFC were – even in the longer term – and would consequently attract even more of the TRFC support.
Of course, this may be wishful thinking on my part, but the successful founding of a new club, being built from the ground up, would be a great opportunity for the divisions in the game, created by RFC and the authorities over the last couple of decades, to be repaired.
Martin says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:34 am
0 0 Rate This
A developing story, but the Record not adding anything concrete to it.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hong-kong-based-rangers-fan-george-4545968
===============
A disgraceful piece of “journalism”. The AIM announcement is clear- the shares have been purchased by Morgan Stanley (on whose behalf we don’t know yet), this Rangers fan is listed as the contact, hardly surprising given that he works for Morgan Stanley. If this guy wanted to invest in RIFC, he would surely do it in his own name? Or use a personal offshore company? Why would he involve his employer?
There is not a shred of evidence that this Rangers fan has bought the shares on his own account, yet this is proclaimed as a fact by The Record. Absolutely desperate.
Martin says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:00 am
Thanks for that, Martin.
As I suspected, it’s not quite what the headline would suggest. He’s not stating a legal point, rather one from his heart. In short, I get the impression, as others have alluded to, that this is the early preparation for yet another ‘new Rangers’, one that will accept the ‘heart and history’ of the club and own it by right – because they are all true Rangers men.
He seems to be saying that, wherever the Rangers’ spirit lives, there you’ll find Rangers. Which is, to me, totally acceptable. A bit like saying, wherever you find true Scotsmen, there you’ll find Scotland. It’s in the heart.
In the event, however, his brand of Rangers comes to be, how he, and his like-minded Rangersmen, explain away the gap years, I look forward to hearing 🙂
Whatever his true intentions are in what he’s said, he has made it clear that he, at least, doesn’t consider TRFC to be Rangers! And from such a high profile, true blue, dyed in the wool, Rangersman, that must surely send out a frightening message to those who believe in the TRFC myth!
Big Pink says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:47 am
I noticed my mistake re newspaper?? when I read the link provided by Martin, the story remains the same, though 🙂
neepheid says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:40 am
As self-appointed guardian of Charles Green’s legacy, I really have to point out that your figure is out by a factor of 100
————-
😳 😳 😳
I am as to maths as Charles Green is to restrained understatement
😆
Some more Tyre-Kicking going on in FF.
Thread entitled, “What is the soul of Rangers for you?”
I know the content is irrelevant to this forum, and I don’t want to get into a debate on some of the answers, but one of the questions asked as a supplementary is
“Would you support a Rangers FC of Glasgow?”
Interesting to see if the thread gets deleted or not …
neepheid says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:56 am
I have been speculating that there is a possible move on Rangers Int. shares by an individual or group of so called ‘real Rangers men’.
I could be way off with this but we do know that there is now a holding of 3.2% and that Morgan Stanley has been the vehicle for putting that together. And to me it looks as though the holding was achieved as a result of recent trades.
Given that the Mike Ashley loan was ultimately accepted, those with alternative funding proposals may have decided on a change in approach.
If what I am saying is correct Morgan Stanley would be an ideal choice for this particularly if you had a well placed associate such as George Taylor who may also be keen to invest.
The Record piece takes this speculation in the wrong direction IMHO in saying that George Taylor is the sole purchaser. We simply don’t know that.
My speculation could equally be wide of the mark and I suspect I’m ploughing a lone furrow with this , as I said it’s a developing story.
There are lots of potential explanations as to who could ultimately be behind this new 3.2% holding but for now I’m claiming internet bampot dibs on the theory I’ve outlined. 😀
As ever I’m more than happy to be corrected if the story unfolds in a different way as the truth of the matter is what’s most important.
In any event I’ll leave this until there is more information available.
From the BBC’s Saturday gossip
“The Scottish Football Association’s Professional Game Board is considering introducing wage and transfer spending caps. (The Sun)”
Anyone happy to confess that they can access the detail ❓ 🙂
Martin,
Interesting to know if the George Taylor holding is a long term play or simply a reaction to try to counter the Ashley and Ashley friendly voting block. Particularly with regards to the 75% dilution play. Could the 3.2% holding be a classic 6 pointer in football parlance. The fact he has them means someone else doesn’t.
AJ
“..that must surely send out a frightening message to those who sell the TRFC myth!”
Hope you don’t mind my edit 😛
Be in no doubt that a ‘community’ of well heeled RFC supporting business and other types exist and are ‘connected’.
A long time acquaintance of mine told me the Blue Knights have the list and he was on the email circulation and was asked whether and how much he would pony up way back.I haven’t broached the subject recently with him but i would bet he is being asked from time to time. From what he told me it is an impressive and substantial list and it won’t be exhaustive.
Ashley with his huge legal weaponry and his various documented ‘rights’ I assume would ultimately see off a one off attempt to do a land grab on ‘his’ shirt and merchandise revenue stream….BUT a new club well backed with their own merchandise ..That is a totally different matter.
At the end of the day ..Football and teams and related businesses are nothing ..nothing without the fans ..if they mobilise as one then anything is possible!!
This core potential investment business fan group like saviours are possibly/probably waiting in the wings..they by and large won’t have invested at the IPO (unlike the ordinary fans ) having seen thru the CG B…S..t and are also possibly/probably the source of the 2nd level of funding which would have been behind King, Murray etc recently if not in their phase 1.
The blue knights per se are unlikely to have gone away.. If they indeed have a wide group which has in fact been mobilised with pledges etc they will not surely stand by and watch outsiders rape and pillage the club for too long..whether they have reached breaking point yet is the question .They might wait for a little while to see what MA will do.
Findlay certainly is a credible rallying point and he may be the first to break cover ..add a few other well kent faces in to the mix get the fans on side with the season tickets and away you go…..
Particularly If the sectarian baggage could be jettisoned..I think most fans in other clubs would welcome and support this move 100% and would let them in the league division 2 level probably …but i fear sadly those Leeches are tied to this team forever….so I suspect it would be with a heavy heart that most clubs and their fans would let them into the league set up
.I agree with an earlier poster CO would clear the way for the use of the name Glasgow Rangers if not immediately then after the new club with good new funding no debts and lots of ST and merchandising of its own ..gets Ibrox back at some stage for a ‘wee consideration’ from the current crew…..he did it with Airdrie did he not?
All that will be left to be done will be what i have no doubt was the plan all along …ie the reappearance and re-coronation of SDM WS and all the old crew ( I am sure some of those lovely EBT funds will come in quite nicely to help in the new funding package!)…with the MSM cheering them on ..and so hey presto it’s back to the good old days with all the bad stuff from the Murray reign and the CW/CG nightmare of the last 3 years airbrushed from history. This Old crew back part would actually important as it will demonstrate that it is the old club that is back and the beast that temporarily appeared has been slain ..it will also importantly validate their side of the story and myths about the Murray years for all the fans
Fanciful conspiracy theory ? probably .!!!..but don’t bet against it however .There are powerful people and forces which can be brought into play to help this team as we all sadly know now. The more you think of the breakaway thing it is a no brainer and falls into place if CO and co hold firm on all the bad stuff and let them have the old name for the new club
So message to the SFA from Scotland’s football fans surely must be
New club ? fine !….straight into SPL and everything else swept away and back to the beginning? .Nae Chance!
Smugas says:
November 1, 2014 at 1:26 pm
The one thing we don’t know with any certainty is just how strong the alliances are between the various holdings. These things are often built on shifting sands.
A new group has the opportunity to make new alliances from a ‘we are all in this together’ standpoint and consequently share similar risks and potential gains with other groups.
An external group with no holding lacks that advantage.
All just speculation at this point, it could be a move to counter Ashley by ‘real Rangers men’ as I have suggested above.
At this point there is nothing certain.
New icon for when something smells a bit 🙂
:poop:
Tailothebank says:
November 1, 2014 at 1:49 pm
Particularly If the sectarian baggage could be jettisoned..I think most fans in other clubs would welcome and support this move 100% and would let them in the league division 2 level probably
———————-
I would welcome them to league 2 if and only if they work their way up the pyramid from the bottom to that point, like anyone else would have to.
Kicker Conspiracy says:
November 1, 2014 at 2:12 pm
I agree with you, in as much as this would be the right thing to happen, but, if it could rid us of the worst elements of a Rangers, then I’d consider it a small price to pay. There is always going to be some sort of Rangers in our midst, so better a decent one than the two we’ve had for way too long.
Quite amused that anyone thinks a new RFC* spearheaded by Donald Finlay would be a clean one with all the sectarian baggage jettisoned!
Really?
I cetainly would not be against an FC Rangers type club forming, but if that were the plan of this new grouping, why would they be wasting their money buying RIFC shares?
Big Pink says:
November 1, 2014 at 11:47 am
If the right people are behind it, I believe they would eventually win the war. Why, because the right people are not the self-entitled constituency, and can be patient building a club, and cherry picking the best of the old club’s traditions. Their existence would make it difficult for TRFC to get to where RFC were – even in the longer term – and would consequently attract even more of the TRFC support.
Of course, this may be wishful thinking on my part, but the successful founding of a new club, being built from the ground up, would be a great opportunity for the divisions in the game, created by RFC and the authorities over the last couple of decades, to be repaired.
—————————————————————
I totally agree with the last paragraph but think that our wishes may never be granted as there is a Catch-22 in the first paragraph – the right people.
The closest example to a breakaway Rangers from a current Rangers still plying their trade in the SPFL would be FC United of Manchester (FCUM).
FCUM were set up by fans (MY right people) on a one member/one vote basis as a community club and started at the lowest level of professional football. They have been an outstanding success so far in achieving their aims but have only been moderately successful on the field due to the excellent financial model they follow. This kind of club will not attract too many fans from a Rangers playing at Ibrox in the Premiership except those that already believe in community based football clubs who have already probably stopped supporting the current Rangers.
It seems to be being mooted on here that any breakaway Rangers will be set up by successful Rangers’ supporting businessmen e.g. Letham, P. Murray etc. The best way for them to challenge and draw support away from a Rangers playing at Ibrox in the Premiership is to once again promise the old “back to where we belong” CL dream. This wouldn’t be much different from the 2 other versions of Rangers and be very little use in the repair kit.
Good effort on Sportsound by Richard Gordon to engage a conversation re why do we want an old firm tie. Decent attacking strike force by Richard and Tom, a reasonable if slightly lightweight defence by chick and patty bonner and to a lesser extent willie miller. God, it was almost an adult conversation! Almost!
nawlite says:
November 1, 2014 at 2:45 pm
Which makes the word ‘if’ very important in putting forward any scenarios for any new version of Rangers :poop: (just wanted to use the new thingy)
nawlite says:
November 1, 2014 at 2:45 pm
On a more serious note; the likelihood of a new Rangers, based on what Findlay described, being free of all the disgusting baggage must be very remote indeed! ‘Rangersness’, as demonstrated by Donald Findlay throughout his Rangers career, displayed all the characteristics of a posh bigot, nothing more – and god, wasn’t he proud of it!!!
“we didn’t get the best team.” absolute quality.
I hope I am not misunderstanding the mood of the blog when a say that I had hoped we would all escape the filth that the country is covered in over these games. Hopefully the slavering anticipation will be confined to the Chics and Toms of this world and this blog can remain a safe haven for the next few months.
Clearly the subtlety of “whoever the opposing 11 are they’re going down” was lost on the MSM so they’re going for something a bit more blunt this time.
You’ve got to love Chris Mcgloughlin bless him. To Ronnie deila. “I know you’re new to scottish football but is this the game we’ve been missing?”
Semi-finals aren’t until end of January, so it could well be a bye to TRFC and a bye into the final for Celtic.
TSFM says:
November 1, 2014 at 5:25 pm
I hope I am not misunderstanding the mood of the blog when a say that I had hoped we would all escape the filth that the country is covered in over these games. Hopefully the slavering anticipation will be confined to the Chics and Toms of this world and this blog can remain a safe haven for the next few months.
==========================================================================
So is any discussion regarding this game a no go area?
Would hate to be hit with a :poop:
TSFM. In anticipation of possible events over the next couple of months and since we now have :poop: , is there any chance of getting a fan emoticon? We already have the arrow. :irony:
I know it’s daft, but I am actually angry that the wee bubble we’ve been living in the past two and a half years is about to be burst.
I could write the “one side is as bad as the other” editorials that will come in the aftermath of the violence that will certainly attach itself to this game. I can tell you that no-one will have a word of encouragement for the medical professionals, police and distressed family members whose lives will be changed – some of them forever – after this match. Not to mention the thousands upon thousands of Mr Hydes who appear in the guise of family-man Dr Jeckylls.
Because as Hugh Keevins says, (and I paraphrase) “Oh we know all that, but we NEED this game”
The match appeals to lumpen masses of lazy thinkers whose main motivation is the discomfort of others. It appeals to same mentality as a public hanging or a snuff movie. Quite definitely not the TOP 10% of us.
As one of our new posters put it yesterday, “I just love to see Rangers lose”. Personally, the mischief maker in me does too, but not at the expense of wrecked lives and a huge bill for the public services required to minimise the damage – none of which football has to pay for.
Make no mistake. The hype surrounding this game which the press will go overboard on in their lust for paper sales is nothing less than a wilful call to sectarian arms. The journos and their own families in their wee suburban enclaves will be ok.
So no harm done then. Wouldn’t it be great if one of them, just one of them spoke of the human cost of this shit?
How apt. Hallowe’en weekend. A resurrected rivalry, featuring an undead club, marketed and milked by bloodsuckers and leeches.
Hawd me back.
If TRFC is still operating in late January, then I think it is highly likely it will be a very different team to the one that plays at the moment.
Mr McCoist will probably have exactly the same view of the game that I have, though with the millions he has amassed, I have no doubt he’ll have a bigger screen.
It’s a long shot but…
Mibbees the bears will organise a boycott of their first game against CFC?
Well, was it not all Lawwell’s fault that they were refused access to the SPL and demoted?
They haven’t punished any teams with a boycott for a while…
:poop: :poop: :poop:
Doc says:
November 1, 2014 at 5:45 pm
TSFM says:
November 1, 2014 at 5:25 pm
I hope I am not misunderstanding the mood of the blog when a say that I had hoped we would all escape the filth that the country is covered in over these games. Hopefully the slavering anticipation will be confined to the Chics and Toms of this world and this blog can remain a safe haven for the next few months.
==========================================================================
So is any discussion regarding this game a no go area?
Would hate to be hit with a :poop:
—————————————————————-
More than happy to oblige, since my team seem to have lost the will to live today: :poop:
In fact, you can have another one for luck: :poop:
RiB, I’m just waiting for you to show your face. I’ve got the fan all ready!
Doc says:
November 1, 2014 at 5:45 pm
I’d suspect it’s as much of a no go area as any individual game has always been on TSFM. To many on here it is of much less interest than games involving their own teams but we all manage to refrain from raising them here. I discuss Hearts matches in Jamboskickback, I’m sure there’s much talk of Celtic games over on their fan sites too. Until, and if, Celtic play TRFC, it’s probably best we stick to the policy of avoiding individual games – unless there is evidence of skulduggery that requires monitoring, of course! At the very least we should confine ourselves to comments on the nonsense the MSM spout about it and leave the mind-sets of individual supporters to be discussed on their own sites. Besides, with today’s semi-final draw, if anyone is interested in gauging how much both sets of supporters are relishing the experience of a new hate-fest, the respective fan sites are the ideal place to discuss it.
Best text so far (at least the repeatable ones)
Background: Chris aye ready Mcgloughlin reported he could hear the Celtic players cheering when the draw happened;
Text: that wasn’t the players cheering, that was Mike Ashley in Newcastle #ransomstrip
So there we have it, the MSM are cockahoop with the news they will be able to “report” on Scotland’s youngest derby.
I still think back to late August where the authorities made the draw for the last 16 and effectively gave Sevco a seeded draw when they had been playing third tier football the season before.
Had the draw been made following Sevco’s win over ICT, as it should have been, I doubt this would ever have happened.
Yet more shameful administration of our national game.
Someone on Twitter says that the same fixture could come out of the next round draw of the Scottish Cup
Can’t say that I like this new icon. Looks out of place on TSFM.
Colin Moffat’s Live reporting loop on bbc sport website says:
“The last time Celtic and Rangers met was in April 2012, with Charlie Mulgrew, Kris Commons and Gary Hooper on target in a comfortable league victory for Celtic.”
:poop: :poop: :poop:
Err no. I interpret this as a suggestion that those two clubs have been drawn to meet each other in the league cup semi final. They haven’t. Mr Moffat, try this instead if you must mention Rangers in relation to a game between Celtic and TRFC:
“Celtic and Rangers met for the last time in April 2012, with Charlie Mulgrew, Kris Commons and Gary Hooper on target in a comfortable league victory for Celtic”.
Sadly I feel that if Celtic call this an old firm meeting my days of following them will be over as it will clearly demonstrate their complicity in this whole sorry affair.
The legitimacy this gives TRFC cannot be bought. This is it! They have arrived!
All of the SMSM and half of social media are already creaming themselves. (Sportscene Results was like 3 speed daters on red bull & Viagra cocktails)
Meanwhile every investigation, court case, criminal review, governing body oversight remains agonisingly impotent.
This is absolutely horrific. Too old to emigrate! :poop:
Allyjambo says:
November 1, 2014 at 6:18 pm
===========================
Message recieved and understood allyjambo.
🙂
Here’s an advance warning of a rise in your council tax bills next year. Can only get more expensive since the last fun fest.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-14251800
jimmyczz says:
November 1, 2014 at 6:31 pm
10 0 Rate This
“Sadly I feel that if Celtic call this an old firm meeting my days of following them will be over as it will clearly demonstrate their complicity in this whole sorry affair.”
You highlight a real dilemma for the Celtic Board. How do they react every time they are asked (as they will be) how delighted are you at a resumption of the Old Firm fixture?
I genuinely wonder how many Celtic fans seriously resent their club being branded as part of the “Old Firm.” Are we in a new era for Scottish football or a return to the past?
Particularly when the probing questioning of the bbc is
Ronnie is this the tie we’ve been missing?
Jon gudetti, is this the tie we’ve been missing?
Emilio, is this the tie we’ve been missing?
Scott, is this…….
Taysider,
I fear a return to the past is more likely. The dilemma for the Celtic board is not too difficult. As with Rangers fans, loyalty to the jersey is a big and relatively indestructable commodity.
For the fans, I don’t believe that most of them are in the camp where they couldn’t care less about the damage the game does to Glasgow and beyond. On the whole they do care about that. However they also believe there needs to be a serious competition in the league, and are living under the misapprehension that TRFC can provide it. Something most of us know they can’t, and barring miracles, won’t for some time.
Perhaps then the myth of “Scottish football needs a strong Rangers” – or any one single club for that matter – will be exploded.
The problem is that the hype surrounding the Old Firm is way beyond the ability of either football club to deliver quality football; but it sells tickets.
My guess is that the Celtic View editor will be looking out the “Old Firm” stamp and inkpad for future editions. Very soon.
The draw for the League Cup? Made on a Scottish Cup day? Buffoons.
Big Pink says:
November 1, 2014 at 5:58 pm
64 2 Rate This
I know it’s daft, but I am actually angry that the wee bubble we’ve been living in the past two and a half years is about to be burst.
I could write the “one side is as bad as the other” editorials that will come in the aftermath of the violence that will certainly attach itself to this game. I can tell you that no-one will have a word of encouragement for the medical professionals, police and distressed family members whose lives will be changed – some of them forever – after this match. Not to mention the thousands upon thousands of Mr Hydes who appear in the guise of family men Dr Jeckylls.
Because as Hugh Keevins says, (and I paraphrase) “Oh we know all that, but we NEED this game”
The match appeals to lumpen masses of lazy thinkers whose main motivation is the discomfort of others. It appeals to same mentality as a public hanging or a snuff movie. Quite definitely not the TOP 10% of us.
As one of our new posters put it yesterday, “I just love to see Rangers lose”. Personally, the mischief maker in me does too, but not at the expense of wrecked lives and a huge bill for the public services required to minimise the damage – none of which football has to pay for.
Make no mistake. The hype surrounding this game which the press will go overboard on in their lust for paper sales is nothing less than a wilful call to sectarian arms. The journos and their own families in their wee suburban enclaves will be ok.
So no harm done then. Wouldn’t it be great if one of them, just one of them spoke of the human cost of this shit?
===================
Well said Big Pink. Very well said.
From a strictly football point of view I’m afraid we are also about to return to the ceaseless demoralisation and denigration of the rest of our game in Scotland as the media obsession with this game will once again eclipse everything else.
Its tiresome and a massive turn off for huge numbers of fans in Scotland who have been and continue to be driven away by the sickening obsession in large numbers.
Hugely detrimental to football in this country in my opinion and actually quite the opposite of the supposedly positive “shot in the arm” the most myopic media tarts will insist this game provide.
The “junkies” are about to get their fix and they will make sure its a big one to make up for lost time over the last couple of years.
There is bound to be an edge to the league cup semi-final because many fans of Rangers transferred their affections to Sevco, as they might easily have done to another team (which would also have lent an edge in any match in which that team played against Celtic).
It doesn’t mean Rangers survived liquidation.
What a fantastic draw for Scottish Football today, if there is anyone out there who genuinely disagrees that this was great for improving or generating interest in the game here then I would put it to them that they are barefaced liars!
Oh, for those who missed that Draw…….
HAMILTON ACCIES 3-3 PARTICK THISTLE
Home team 2 up, away team fights back to go 2-3 up, last gasp equaliser to even the game…..What’s not to like?
Imo the smsm will drive the frenzy to a real possible armageddon.
Madbhoy24941 says: November 1, 2014 at 9:22 pm
What a fantastic draw for Scottish Football today.
====================
You must have missed the one at Borough Briggs. Elgin 3-0 up on Bo’ness at half time, with John Robertson claiming the game was all over, pulled back to 3-3, back in front at 4-3, only for Bo’ness to force an equaliser and a replay at 4-4.
Madbhoy24941 says:
November 1, 2014 at 9:22 pm
‘..What a fantastic draw for Scottish Football today,.’
——-
Ha,Ha,madbhoy. I’ve just logged in and started reading your post, as being the latest on screen when I sat down.
You really had me apopletic for a second or two, and ready to challenge you to a fist-fight for implying that anyone ( like me, for instance) who denied being interested in the semi-final draw would be a liar. ( As Cowan did earlier on, when his little narrow unprincipled opinions came to the fore).
Cleverly done.
But of course it is no joke that so many people are prepared to attempt to legitimise the evil done by the Football Authorities.
And as for Packy Bonner and the Celtic dressing room and( to a lesser extent, Deila) the whole damn lot should be lobotomised.And Peter Lawwell as well, who was probably standing at the dressing room door orchestrating their ‘cheer’ for the benefit of the BBC.
And as for the BBC Radio Scotland weasel, he is beyond contempt for his desperate, begging insistence to foreign players to say something good about ‘Rangers’ and how they ‘missed’ the ‘Old Firm’, and how much they knew about ‘Rangers’ and how important they were.I was almost sick listening to it.
Good God Almighty, Scottish Football really has been corrupted, when we have lies rammed done our throats and the deeds of the liars of hell ‘legitimised’instead of exposed as the cheats they are.
The curse of Cromwell on their duplicitous heads.
So what if you happened to own a large sportswear empire and were buying up interest in a football club, just how lucky would you be if your team had an exciting semi final coming up. Even better, what if your football club needed a bit of financial help and you’d also like to shift some stock from your sportswear shops (maybe to help pay for extra funds or loans this club of yours always needs), just how lucky would you be if a football authority drew your club against their supposed arch enemies.
Would you be running off some new semi final versions of a new strip? or scarves, or hoodies or whatever?
As I said, so what if….
Cue some old fashioned tv dream music
Is there a theme tune / mood music track for increasingly paranoid corruption type thing?
Or its just one of those things / happy coincidences?
Not long now until the :poop: hits the fan…..s (in more ways than one)
Ok i’ll get my coat ➡
Just a general feeling, but those who are currently Celtic fans and feel they will ‘turn their backs’ if the Celtic plc starts to re-use the old-firm tag line…
I really rather feel that Celtic plc have been painted into a corner, and any move by them to further alienate or anger either side of the traditional blue and green elements, will serve to do nothing more than ratchet up the hatred, emotions, passion…and none of which, in this context, would be positive.
In other words, any statements or actions that jeopardise either fan safety or shareholder returns, are going to be a complete no no.
I resent who ‘they’ were, much as I resent who they now claim to be, but I would not want to be in Glasgow on the day of the semi-final anyway, but in particular, if Celtic plc start refuting the ‘old-firm’ by trying to claim it doesn’t exist, or that the club playing out of ibrox are only 2 years old.
None of it.
bad capt madman says:
November 1, 2014 at 9:53 pm
‘.. just how lucky would you be if your team had an exciting semi final coming up. .’
———-
There was caller from Aberdeen ( I think) on the later ‘Off-the-ball’ whose theory was that the draw was rigged to make sure that Celtic v TRFC, so that there would be no accusation of a draw being rigged to ensure a Celtic v TRFC Final!
Who among us would now dismiss that as a crazy theory, any more than we would immediately dismiss your speculative suggestion that someone’s commercial interests were being looked after?
That’s the trouble with Authorities who have been caught in a lie: people expect them to continue to lie.( A parallel situation from the world of politics: just a few mins ago I heard on the news that the first draft of a letter from the Home Secretary in the Woolfe matter referred to Mrs Woolfe having dinner alone, or perhaps with Mrs Brittain also present.By the 7th (!!) draft this had turned into a large dinner party with a whole lot of people present.Who now would believe a word that Mrs Woolfe were to say, or that the Home Secretary might now say, about Woolfe’s ‘impartiality’? A lie was told. Further lies would automatically be expected.Credibility is blown, trust destroyed.)
Flocculent Apoidea says:
November 1, 2014 at 8:14 pm
‘..The draw for the League Cup? Made on a Scottish Cup day? Buffoons.’
——–
I was no great admirer of James Traitor, but I was with him on one thing: the bungling ineptitude of the ( then) 3 principal bodies governing our game.
There was some expectation that ( whatever the real reasons for the creation of the SPFL) the actual nuts and bolts of administration and organisation of the game would improve to some extent.
That expectation has, as the point you make evidences, has not been realised.
John Clark says:
November 1, 2014 at 9:51 pm
And as for Packy Bonner and the Celtic dressing room and( to a lesser extent, Deila) the whole damn lot should be lobotomised. And Peter Lawwell as well, who was probably standing at the dressing room door orchestrating their ‘cheer’ for the benefit of the BBC.
And as for the BBC Radio Scotland weasel, he is beyond contempt for his desperate, begging insistence to foreign players to say something good about ‘Rangers’ and how they ‘missed’ the ‘Old Firm’, and how much they knew about ‘Rangers’ and how important they were.I was almost sick listening to it.
_________________________________________________________
You know John – and I do understand there is a touch of bunker-mentality in my thoughts – it makes no difference who – Celtic players or directors or the MSM or anyone else – thinks today’s outcome is good. There are those of us who know that it is a serious blight on our national identity and a danger to the well-being of our children and loved ones.
Maybe if I had a financial interest in that match (like the people above) I’d think differently, but I’d expect others to tell me that my opinion bore no weight simply because of it.
I can’t threaten Celtic with the withdrawal of my support if they endorse the OF brand – because I already have withdrawn it on account of what I see as their lack of moral leadership of their fanbase over this issue. Consequently, I would also assume that those who have not already done so over that would be unlikely to do so now.
I understand those who say that Celtic and others have to be careful what they say for fear of reprisal. I really do, but surely we have to realise that if that is the choice they are forced to make, then everything that follows from that is a lie and unworthy of the passion we as fans have invested in the game over the years. I also think it is ridiculously ironic to stand behind the “social unrest” defence whilst bigging up an organised hatefest in the early spring.
Maybe I’m jumping the gun (I hope I am), but a failure to draw a moral line in the sand, no matter the rationale or how well-intentioned, leads to the destruction of everything on the beach. For me right now, especially today, the beach is full of drunken lager louts on their first trip to the seaside.
My inclination is to head for the hills.
Cluster One says:
November 1, 2014 at 9:58 pm
Not long now until the :poop: hits the fan…..s (in more ways than one)
Ok i’ll get my coat ➡
Beat you to it!
My fan was ready at 18.14!
Think I’m gonna have to remove the poop 🙁
Current Frenzied SMSM `activity` (distraction) means nothing in reality
SMSM don`t know – but they`ll take anything they can get to flog copy
One game, that`s all it is, 90 minutes, then it’s over – a statistic
If CFC (in Europa League) don’t go through??
We can fairly speculate there`s more afoot with the `old firm` (as original)
But doesn’t matter in the great scheme of things
We`re now in November
Limited time to publish (Deloittes) accounts / announce AGM by mid-December
Week’s available to deadline creeping closer and shortening by the day
SMSM can make as much noise as they like
Cash Facts are cold hard Cash Facts
What’s really going on?
My take, Protecting Big Money against Directorships bans or Investigations
Big money will protect that over anything else (they can`t operate `legally` otherwise)
The rest is just show – apart from low life spivs who should be really worried now
I hope they ALL get what they deserve
But that it`ll be up to the CoS and their verve
– let’s hope CoS have the wherewithal to sort this properly
mtp
:poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop: :poop:
Sorry, just had verbal diarrhoea.
[Thought I would gratuitously use the icon before it is flushed away !]
I’ll get the bog paper… :poop:
BBC News at 10 reported on the exciting news from Scotland about the League Cup draw, with Celtic playing Rangers for the first time since 2012. Rangers, due to financial difficulties had been demoted to Division 3. I hope the complaints department is busy tonight.
Big Pink says:
November 1, 2014 at 10:28 pm
‘..Maybe I’m jumping the gun (I hope I am), but a failure to draw a moral line in the sand, no matter how well-intentioned, leads to the destruction of everything on the beach.’
——–
I agree ( always allowing for a distinction between ‘peccadilloes’ and really major moral issues).
I have always resisted the suggestion that it was up to Celtic to storm the barricades and kick up a fuss when the Authorities took the deceitful course they did.
I took that view ( with which some honourable posters disagreed) for two reasons:
a)unilateral action by one member of an association( who may not have found support in that association for that action) cannot reasonably be seen to be a duty, and
b) any publicly expressed opposition to the recognition of TRFC(as it became) might, and probably would have, been seen as ‘provocative’ and self-serving.
I recognised, and still recognise,(as does FIFA, in a different context) ‘force majeure’: under the rules Celtic are now required to play a match against what is an illegitimate club.
I cannot, and would not, in all fairness and justice, call for them to refuse to play that match.If they did refuse, you may be sure that the full rule book would with great force be thrown at them, with venom.That way, Celtic would be made to suffer, and the ‘baddies’ in the SPFL would win.
What I can call for, and what I would actually have expected (naive, or what?)is for Celtic supporters to show their contempt for the fixture by staying away from it. And for the Celtic CEO to instruct his players to remain absolutely non-committal, and refuse to be drawn into any attempt by the media to get them to ‘legitimise’ the match.
It’s a very sad set of circumstances that we all in Scottish Football find ourselves in, because the cheating of one club was not dealt with properly.
Are McCoist`s comments on the prospect of playing Celtic deliberately upbeat because he knows fine well he won`t be in charge when the match takes place?
TSFM says:
November 1, 2014 at 10:46 pm
Think I’m gonna have to remove the poop 🙁
______________________________________________________
Finally – after gawd knows how many comments I get a result!
[pops champagne cork]
😆
“Think I’m gonna have to remove the poop”
Stewart Regan, 2012?
Sadly, not. 🙁
Interesting maybe
Is MA tied into Express stuff puff pieces?
It would seem mccosits job sit is ok, as `mike` says so
So there you go
I thought PR was made up nonsense to keep cash flowing in
must have been wrong 😉
mtp
I see that Aberdeen and Dundee United were drawn together in the League Cup draw.
I’m really looking forward to that match-up and the full press coverage it will no doubt be attracting.
It brings back almost sepia tinted memories of the good old days of the New Firm.
The Cat NR1 says:
November 2, 2014 at 12:27 am
I see that Aberdeen and Dundee United were drawn together in the League Cup draw.
I’m really looking forward to that match-up and the full press coverage it will no doubt be attracting.
It brings back almost sepia tinted memories of the good old days of the New Firm.
——————————————–
You didn’t happen to notice who plays in the other semi by any chance?
Celtic’s official site reported the actual League Cup draw roughly 10 minutes before it took place on live television yesterday, four minutes before they informed folk that the club had won 1-0 v ICT.
The draw, as I heard it, was made around 8 minutes past 5pm (1708). Yet Celtic’s site managed to report it just before five o’clock (1658). As I type, that information is still on the official site.
FYI.
Kicker Conspiracy says:
November 2, 2014 at 12:39 am
‘..You didn’t happen to notice who plays in the other semi by any chance? ‘
———
That puts a nice wee smile on my face as I head for ( and have I raised this before?) what my dad used to call what sounded to me like ‘alley cart’, meaning bed, berth, bunk or whatever. I always took it that it was some kind of army usage or expression, vaguely French sounding.
Anyway, I’m off to bed, smiling in spite of all! 🙂
borussiabeefburg says:
November 2, 2014 at 12:43 am
‘..Celtic’s official site reported the actual League Cup draw roughly 10 minutes before it took place on live television yesterday,.’
——–
And there was I on my way to bed a second ago, and F5d, and there is this post from borussiabeefburg. And I say to myself, is every goddamed thing to do with Scottish football twisted and perverted and effing well manipulated? was Richard Gordon and the others on Sportsound acting a bloody part, pretending that the draw on radio was live, when it had taken place already?
God, is there no truth to be found in ANY aspect of Scottish Football? Is Richard Gordon’s credibility as an honest man now in question? ( I leave aside any reference to Patterson and whoever the other ‘drawer’ was).
Are we all being played for absolute mugs?
That was touted as a live draw. The bast.rds were lying! It was a bloody recording of a live draw!
How do you live with that kind of deceit from the BBC? Easily, if you know who is in charge of BBC Scotland.
Kicker Conspiracy says:
November 2, 2014 at 12:39 am
1
0
Rate This
The Cat NR1 says:
November 2, 2014 at 12:27 am
I see that Aberdeen and Dundee United were drawn together in the League Cup draw.
I’m really looking forward to that match-up and the full press coverage it will no doubt be attracting.
It brings back almost sepia tinted memories of the good old days of the New Firm.
——————————————–
You didn’t happen to notice who plays in the other semi by any chance?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Sorry, I haven’t had a chance to check the full draw.
That tie jumped out at me though.
I’ll have a look in the morning to see the rest.
It gets worser and worser!
3 questions to the TSFM community and the BBC.
1. Was the draw ‘live’ or recorded and shown ‘as live’?
2. If it was live,how did Celtic know the draw at 16.58?
3. If it was recorded,how many attempts at recording were made?
Answers on a metaphorical postcard .
And here was me thinking the biggest cup story yesterday was in the SC with Spartans triumph over Clyde FC.
On the bright side, the Clyde manager can now concentrate fully on that other cup where a New Entity XI have been drawn against the current Scottish League Champions.
Yawn.