A guest blog by Auldheid
In the previous blog (http://www.tsfm.scot/how-not-to-govern-scottish-football/), TSFM wrote to Harper Macleod raising questions on their advice supplied to the then SPL Board in February 2013 when the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision re use of EBTs and side letters was announced.
A reply was received from Mr McKenzie on 18th September the gist of which can be discerned in the following reply sent on 4th October.
Dear Mr McKenzie 4th Oct 2014
Thank you for your response of 18th September to my letter of 5th September regarding the consequences of information on the true nature of EBTs for Craig Moore, Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo being withheld from your good selves when establishing in 2012 the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission into the use of EBTs and side letters by Rangers FC from 1999.
In recognition of the points you made about publishing your responses on line, your letter of 18th September will not be published although readers of TSFM will be able to gather from this reply which is being published what those points were.
Anonymity.
It is a matter of real regret that not only was anonymity required, but that Harper MacLeod were used as a conduit to try and elicit a reply from the SPFL or SFA. In terms of anonymity there were three factors at play:
- Security. The individuals asking the questions are aware that any raised concerning Rangers can attract threats from the worst of the Rangers support. We know that they are a minority but nevertheless, as we have recently witnessed, some are ready to turn threat into action. It is a condemnation of Scottish society that fear has played its part in preventing the truth being revealed about Rangers FC’s use of EBTs since 1999.
- Collective. The Scottish Football Monitor is made up of supporters of many clubs in Scottish football and is in effect a collective. The letters reflect to a large extent the thinking and feelings of the majority of readers. If a name is required for any future correspondence from the SPFL or SFA, then it can be addressed to Mr John Macnab, and a Post Box address can be supplied if necessary in addition to this e mail address press@tsfm.scot.
- Accountability. The final factor is the most important because it is why Harper Macleod were approached. It was not just because you were responsible for commissioning the Lord Nimmo Smith enquiry, but because there is absolutely no form of direct accountability by either the SPFL or the SFA to the supporters of Scottish football clubs. Correspondence can be ignored or the content not fully addressed and the customer who pays the wages of both organisations has no means of redress at all. Had there been some oversight in say an Ombudsman type role, it would not have been necessary to involve Harper MacLeod and indeed your good self. We sincerely apologise for doing so along with our thanks for actually responding to our correspondence, but we would like the reasons for our approach being addressed by the clubs who make up both footballing authorities. We hope you pass this particular point on to both SFA and SPFL.
Provenance.
You ask what the provenance is of the information/evidencethat you were given. The answer is we do not know, it was taken from material uploaded mainly in June last year for purposes unknown. Whilst its provenance may be in doubt there is no question as to the veracity of the content of the material itself.
This, when put together, sets out the narrative that prompted our correspondence. This question of provenance simply looks like an excuse for football authority not investigating what the material suggests took place when Duff and Phelps were asked to supply all documents relating to EBTs (no distinction being made) from the inception of the SPL.
Even if the material itself could not be used directly, it should have prompted questions that would have either corrected the narrative or established that the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission was indeed misled either by accident or design, when those documents were not supplied.
The SPFL must surely have the powers to seek the original documents from BDO and the SFA cannot be totally impotent in that regard either.
Then there is the personal knowledge of current SFA President Campbell Ogilvie to draw on. A simple statement explaining why he saw no reason to make any distinction between the irregular DOS REBTs that he launched in 1999 and the later MGMRT EBTs of which he was a beneficiary would surely help clear the air?
Existence of Side Letters.
We note that the Commission were aware of the existence of side letters to Moore, De Boer and Flo at the time of its decision of 28th February 2013 and these were taken into account when determining the appropriate sanction. The existence of side letters is not the issue that was raised in our previous correspondence, it was the nature of the EBTs that was the issue raised. In fact it would seem that the Commission themselves were confused by the switching from the irregular REBT ebts in 2002/03 to the MGMRT EBTs that are subject to further appeal with regard to regularity by HMRC.
The side letters to De Boer and Flo of 30th August and 23 November 2000 related to the DOS REBTs that they were both paid under. It is not known if they had subsequent side letters relating to the MGMRT EBTs , which is possible, but as set out in previous correspondence there were two distinctive types of EBTs and the side letters supplied relate to the earlier irregular type.
The position regarding the Moore EBT is interesting in that whatever EBT side letter was known to the Commission in February 2012 it could only have related to payments made to him under an accompanying side letter from the MGMRT ebts after 2002/03.
That Mr Moore was paid under the REBT scheme in 1999 is a matter of supplied evidence. However there is no record of any side letter in relation to the payment under the 1999 arrangement, which may or may not have been reported in the contract lodged with the SPL and SFA. It was the absence of any side letter in respect of this payment that prevented HMRC pursuing the tax due on it as they did for De Boer and Flo in what has become known as “the wee tax case. “ The evidence of deliberate concealment by the Murray Group of the side letters to De Boer and Flo allowed HMRC to seek repayment outside the normal 6 year time limit.
However the absence of a side letter or tax demand for Mr Moore does not mean this particular payment is not deserving of further scrutiny since
- It was an irregular payment that other clubs could not avail themselves of (as applies to the other two EBTs to De Boer and Flo)
- It is not known if it was reported to the SPL/SFA under the registration rules of that period.
Finally thank you for forwarding our letter of 5th September and previous correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer. Hopefully any further correspondence will be between him and ourselves, first to our email address, later to a PO Box if required.
It is the hope of all readers of The Scottish Football Monitor that the SFA will stop hiding behind the provenance excuse, which is destroying any semblance of integrity and proper governance of Scottish football and they will use their powers to properly acquire the information that will set the record straight and in doing so start to restore some of the lost trust which is essential for the wellbeing of Scottish football.
John Macnab
TSFM
Spiers, and he’s one of the intelligent ones……
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Now I can’t wait for the end of January. I can scarcely keep myself from looking ahead to this Hampden cup semi, having been starved of the fixture for so long. I simper quietly to myself just thinking about a Celtic-Rangers match after this Glasgow derby period of purdah.
They – our moral guardians out there – are flashing up their warning signs already about the match. There’s trouble ahead. There’s yet more poisonous singing to come. A few wives/women are set to take a few blows. Doctors and nurses, like some battle-scarred village on the Western Front, are on a red alert.
If I wanted to I could dig out some of my own stuff about “the Old Firm being a blight on Scottish society”. And there is a lot of truth in all this. The fixture can attract everything that is primeval or bad in west of Scotland man.
Well, hurry up and bring it on. Let’s just get to the end of January right now. Because, in spite of everything, this is a Celtic-Rangers game to cause a sensory overload.
“Billy Stark to step down as Scotland under 21s boss after almost seven years in job…Under his stewardship, the under 21s rose from 41st to 17th in the UEFA rankings…”
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Don’t know the full reason for his leaving, but he seemed to be doing something right ?
IIR, this year alone, the SFA has lost/is losing;
– under-21’s coach
– the Performance Director
– the Head of Women’s football
– the Compliance Officer
And they all seemed to be highly regarded individuals, [well, maybe the ‘selective’ Compliance Officer aside…]
The SFA seems to be haemorrhaging valued personnel.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/billy-stark-step-down-scotland-4566105
acciesbhoy says:
November 4, 2014 at 10:19 pm
I am fed up with fanny teams in the World Cup. Surely it could be rigged so that only the most populous and commercialy advantaged countries play in the tournament?
To paraphrase the Scotland national team manger.
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I am fed up with fanny teams in the Champions League. Surely it could be rigged so that only the most populous and commercialy advantaged countries play in the tournament?
To paraphrase……oh wait a minute they’ve fixed that one already 🙁
While this isn’t really a matter of insolvency law;
It is necessary to have a belief in Tinkerbell for her to exist.
It is necessary to have a belief in The Old Firm for it to exist.
When I posted earlier about a particular piece of writing on the upcoming ‘old firm’ game being hard to beat it terms of idiocy. It did not at the time occur to me that not only would it quickly be surpassed but that I had underestimated the terms of comparative reference.
I expected to see a lot of idiotic writing and I’m sure I will, but to be honest I never expected to see a phrase such as “ A few wives/women are set to take a few blows”, in an article which enthuses about the upcoming fixture.
The statistics on male violence against women are shocking in the extreme and impossible to ignore.
I say impossible but hey, there is a match on – the most exciting match ever. clearly that constitutes a holiday from common sense, or common decency, or the ugly prevalence of common violence against women.
Take it away Graham –
“Well, hurry up and bring it on. Let’s just get to the end of January right now. Because, in spite of everything, this is a Celtic-Rangers game to cause a sensory overload.”
What an Arse!
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/spiers-on-sport-call-me-a-hypocrite-but-i-cant-wait-for-the-old-firm-game.1415118611
Has Spiers really penned this piece? He acknowledges that there will be an incremental increase in domestic violence and troublesome A&E patients? And he wants to “bring it on”? What in the name of sanity is going on here?
Graham says “call me a hypocrite”. You’re a bloody hypocrite and a total buffoon.
oddjob says: November 4, 2014 at 8:59 pm
Prior to the draw for the next round of the Scottish Cup, 36 club’s remained in contention, before replays. Once these replays are concluded, that figure will be reduced to 32, and will include all 12 of the Premier division and the top 2 of the Championship.
The draw for the next round has actually paired ALL FOURTEEN of the “top” clubs .
Can any of our mathematician friends calculate the odds on such an outcome?
No conspiracy theory intended, just wondering.
=========================
I’m not a statistician, but I make it 41,208 to 1. That is using a simplistic formula but I suspect a skilled person may come up with an alternative figure.
In the last 32 there would be 14 top teams and 18 others.
As each top team is drawn out there are always 18 other teams working against a diminishing number of top teams, hence it should be a seven fold accumulator with odds of 18/13, 18/11, 18/9, 18/7, 18/5, 18/3 and 18/1.
I have written a complaint to the Herald about Graham Spiers’ article. The text is below…
Dear madam or sir,
I just read an article written by Graham Spiers in anticipation of a football match that is to be played in Glasgow early next year. In his article he appears to ridicule people who are worried that the match could lead to violence. Sadly this is a match which has lead to violent outcomes in the past.
My particular concern is Mr Spiers’ use of the actuality of domestic violence as a source of humour. He uses the phrase ‘A few wives/women are set to take a few blows.’ as if that outcome is in some way trivial. He also seems to make light of the fact that the emergency services in Glasgow (and elsewhere) are likely to be called into action.
I am assuming that an editor checked and approved Mr Spiers’ copy before it made it into print.
I am aghast that the Herald believes that it should not be a matter of public concern that something as inconsequential as a football match can lead to domestic violence and serious injury. I am appalled that you can employ a team of people that believe that violence against women is an acceptable and funny footnote to a football match.
The PGA President in the US just stepped down as a result of using the term ‘little girl’ as an insult. I would imagine that his use of the term in social media was an off the cuff remark, which he now regrets deeply. Mr Spiers’ words are carefully crafted copy, which has been checked by your editorial team.
In my view, both Mr Spiers and his editor should be prevented from writing for your newspaper again.
Regards
bailemeanach says:
November 4, 2014 at 11:49 pm
Has Spiers really penned this piece? He acknowledges that there will be an incremental increase in domestic violence and troublesome A&E patients? And he wants to “bring it on”? What in the name of sanity is going on here?
============================================
In the earlier days there was much to admire about Graham Spiers. He was willing to highlight the bigotry issue in Scottish football and also willing to challenge the media party line that both sides must be held culpable in equal measure. His abhorrence of bigotry has not changed at all, but he has IMO become ingrained in many other aspects of the Scottish media that are very much down the party line. The article you refer to is a case in point and has been replicated over a number of publications.
Most puzzling for me is the insistence of Spiers that he is not a Rangers fan. He frequently uses his Twitter account to eulogise about happy days at the old Ibrox, and has interviewed far more people associated with Rangers for his newspaper columns than any other club.
I don’t know Graham Spiers personally, but to me he comes across as someone who is a tad snobbish and still sees the marker of a person very much as to which club they are associated with. He overly rushed to praise Graham Wallace, and now he has spoken in terms of Mike Ashley’s ‘delicious’ millions. Aside from his condemnation of bigotry, he is as bad as anything else that pervades the Scottish media. He seems very much to subscribe to the unwritten pecking order in Scottish football that has a Rangers at the very top.
parttimearab says:
November 4, 2014 at 7:44 pm
28 0 Rate This
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DF was interviewed briefly on SSB last night. A bit evasive on The Mail comments, actually answered another question that wasn’t asked, no doubt to defuse the situation. But one thing he did say was that an upcoming semi-final fixture should not be hyped up before time. He seemed against the current media hysteria.
Anyway, leaves you wondering what motivated his original ‘new entity’ comments. If he’s not been misquoted, has he been misinterpreted?
The immediate reaction was that he actually wanted to explode the myth — something that fans need to hear if they are to break free of the regime and get behind a group like the one pushing the red & black alternative.
Puzzling.
PS I was listening for Kris Commons whom I’m sure SSB had tweeted was to be on the programme. No show, though — unless I slept through that bit 🙂
Just read the Spiers article. It’s a disgrace! How the hell can he trivialise the unacceptable violence?
He also slags off any notion that a lot of us were glad to see the back of this toxic fixture. He calls it ‘The great lie!’
Well, how the hell do you know Graham? Of course, you try to make out
that you are shoulder to shoulder with the rank and file fan. Maybe golf fans!
My big worry is that Celtic V Rangers was bad enough, but the new entity
have massive resentments now – so much more baggage to vent their spleen.
The Celtic fans will have a lot more to taunt them with too.
Add to this, the SMSM have months to whip them all into a frenzy, and
this is a potential powderkeg!
The ironic thing is, if it does turn into a disaster, those chamaeleons
like Spiers will be first in line to tut, tut and condemn after being active in winding the fans up and getting well paid for it to boot!
Sorry Mr Spiers, I prefer the big lie!
I’m still annoyed by Gordon Strachan’s “manipulation” comment. What is it about the SFA that makes them want Scottish football to be a bastion of anti-sport? That then got me thinking about how football is also a business (with some clubs so bad at it they risk their existence (cough)). So why the silence from companies operating in an industry where the ruling body suggest manipulating the setup in favour of certain companies? Why isn’t this getting the attention it deserves from the media (sporting and business) and the companies involved?
EasyJambo says
November 5 2014 @ 1.06 am
Thanks EasyJambo. I knew that somewhere in the fog that was once my brain, lurked a formula to solve such questions. The term “arithmetic progression” rattled around, but I could not get beyond that.
The draw, however was very interesting. Thanks again.
I’m still pondering chicks efforts the other night. Just after his “old order restored” comment re the draw he then weighed in with “I don’t understand why they don’t have a sponsor, surely they’re missing a trick here.” Really chick, who’d a thunk it!
Of course the solution is to get a cup sponsor and guarantee them an old firm tie in the first round. Presumably that would keep them, chick and spiersy happy?
Social Norms Move On
SMSM football journalists may be frothing at the mouth over the “Old Firm” fixture – some may already have a draft of their game report. However, it will be very instructive to see how any spike in arrests, assaults and domestic violence are portrayed in the wider press and received by the wider population. My feeling is that after three years without such a spike the general reaction will be far less accepting of this as the norm in post-referendum Scotland. I imagine such behaviour will also be reported and analysed internationally given Scotland’s current high profile.
There are clear precedents for populations not wishing to return to hostilities after a period of more peaceful life – and a ground swell against those who would prefer to perpetuate hostilities. I would give examples, but they may be seen as too political by the mods. But, it is demonstrable that ordinary people prefer peace and normality for their families.
Has Scottish society moved on from acceptance of ritual, tribal violence? I know where my money is.
Some of the content of the Spiers article is indeed wholly inappropriate but I think we need to get into the real world.
The mid-week quarter finals gave us crowds of 13,023 at Ibrox and 16,805 at Celtic Park.
Fans who therefore were willing to turn out to see their team hell or high water.
Come the semi a further 29,828 will turn out to fill Hampden to the gunnels.
Be in no doubt if it were a game at Ibrox or Celtic park the extra 38,009 and 57,027 fans would easily be found to fill the respective stadiums.
The game needs no hype from the MSM. There are more than enough people who will turn out for all manner of reasons, good and bad, to be present at this game.
As said the other day my only hope is that the hard of thinking manage to behave themselves and that is the message the likes of Spiers and his mates should be putting out there as opposed to fanning the flames.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:15 am
The answer is simple although unpalatable to many. The vast majority of SPFL clubs (if not all) endorse the media driven message that Rangers operating in the top league is a prerequisite for a thriving Scottish game. Therefore the SFA’s efforts to ensure the wellbeing of Rangers and a speedy entry to the top division is fully supported rather than just accommodated.
Things have got so skewed that we are lectured by the Scottish Team Manager that we should be prepared to manipulate things to ensure “normal order is restored”. We are also faced with the farcical situation whereby employees of some clubs have been released from their duties for opining that Rangers is indeed, what it is, a new football club, because to say otherwise is going against the grain.
The perceived commercial benefits of a “return to normal” appears to be more important to our clubs than doing what is right.
The LC semi final draw has been the catalyst for the SMSM to crank up its concerted campaign, it is making for some altogether sickening listening and reading.
tilhotdogsbark says:
November 5, 2014 at 9:56 am
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100% Correct mate………….All the more reason for this site and the individuals on it to keep letting them know that we are not buying it.
One day the truth will come out about the stinking corruption they have foisted upon the Scottish football supporting public, let the proponents of this corruption be in no doubt that we are not buying it.
Hammer it home at every opportunity that we hold Campbell Ogilvie responsible for what has happened to the game since HE, and his fellow board of Directors at 1st Rangers, decided to gain a sporting advantage by implementing DOS and EBT (with the banks and Scottish media compliance) to do so.
From that moment the game was a bogey, every individual who has benifitted must be in no doubt that what they achieved was achieved by doping.
Until justice is seen to have been done, the club now operating as a Rangers will be seen as a continuation of the corruption.
Circa £70 Million to win 2 part time leagues is just more of the same. I have been tempted to ‘walk away’ but they will have won if I do that, “all it takes for evil to prevail, is for good men to say nothing”.
I am comforted in the knowledge that the SFA can never plead they were innocent, we have asked the direct questions, they, like the moral bankrupts they are, deflect, deny and denounce the questioners. They will have to stand up one day and defend their actions, to borrow a famous (contentious) line “our day will come”
To put that argument another way wottpi, is to say that the OF (sorry) tie will fill the ground regardless of any hype, but that said hype will come anyway, and will be at the expense of said resources being otherwise channelled at supporting the rest of the game elsewhere.
And secondly, that that situation will continue regardless of the behaviour of the participants whether in the stands, the pitch, the A&E departments or, of most significance here, the Boardrooms.
🙁
Tillhotdogsbark,
You will excuse me from repeating, and highlighting, the most important bit of your post.
And yes, I fully expect a sponsorship deal to magically appear on their return, and for this to be thrust down my throat as ‘the benefit.’
In football games there is always the odd surprise result. The two lc semi’s should be on paper close games. Only one game is being promoted as the big one. My point is in the Celtic semi who do you think the unbiased smsm and sfa would prefer to win. I hope closer to the game ( if Govan club does not meet with another calamity) that the smsm reporting is equally balanced between both clubs. How sad is it that I have to hope for this.
Bawsman says:
November 5, 2014 at 10:22 am
I have been tempted to ‘walk away’ but they will have won if I do that, “all it takes for evil to prevail, is for good men to say nothing.
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I think most of us have been in that boat from time to time. But you are spot-on – if we do – then they will have won.
And I think ‘walking away’ means different things to different people. For myself it would mean concentrating more of my free-time on other issues and mibbe a little more work 🙁
But I really refer to walking-away from spending time here or a few other sites and on the time I spend researching often seemingly ‘useless’ bits of information which I think – often wrongly – form part of the hidden jigsaw of corruption.
I’ll ‘support’ Scotland on telly but won’t financially support the SFA by attending Internationals although I have to confess I was sorely tempted over the forthcoming game with NI at Parkhead because IMO that will be a great footballing game and for atmosphere as well.
As to my club Celtic it would take a lot for me to walk away from Parkhead but it would be for things that the Celtic Board did or didn’t do that directly affected my club and that I found totally unacceptable. I have come very close a couple of times previously in almost 60 years supporting the Hoops but, so far, I’m still there and I still get that heart-busting and eye-watering feeling as my team takes to the park.
I genuinely believe my life would be the poorer without that emotional ‘fix’. But I know I could walk away.
But even if I did I would watch non-Scottish football on telly as I simply love the tactics of the game especially when being played by good teams with skilled managers.
I might even support and English or Continental team and probably fit in at least half a dozen home or even away games as part of a mini-holiday as I love city breaks.
So, even if I walked from any involvement with Scottish Football, I would never actually walk away from football. That’s my passion – it really just is that simple – and I ain’t gonna let a corrupt regime of Scottish football governance take that from me.
valentinesclown says:
November 5, 2014 at 10:32 am
I hope closer to the game ( if Govan club does not meet with another calamity) that the smsm reporting is equally balanced between both clubs. How sad is it that I have to hope for this.
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I don’t know what your hope is based on- it can’t be on experience, certainly not experience of the Scottish Sporting Press over the last 60 years or so.
Almost to a man, these “journalists” are living in a constant dream world, where the natural order is rapidly restored, the team from Ibrox spends shedloads of somebody else’s money, and the team from Ibrox struts once more on top of the midden that is Scottish football, like the noisiest wee bantam in the farm court. “Greatest in the world” it crows from dawn til dusk. You wonder why the fairmer doesn’t wring its neck.
The astonishing thing is not the journalists, though. The crap they peddle sells newspapers, and they have a living to make, even aside from their emotional sympathies. No, it is the other clubs who have surprised me with their acquiescence in, and even promotion of, this utterly corrupt and corrupting mindset.
The other clubs want the “establishment club” back on top of the heap. Why? Do they enjoy a good kicking when they’re down from the very club they conspired to save? Because that’s what they’ll get when it’s their turn. Remember Airdrionians, anyone?
I have never, ever understood masochism- it is totally beyond me. Yet I know it exists- 41 members of the SPFL stand as clear evidence of that.
Flocculent Apoidea says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:15 am
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I actually have no real gripe with the SFA coming to the decision that the return of Rangers to the top-flight would be beneficial to the finances of Scottish Football.
Whether that proves to be the case or not isn’t something I can predict with any accuracy especially as it may well be that the Rangers that might return could well be a shadow of its former self.
However that will all unfold in stages depending on what happens within the Ibrox corridors of power between now and the start of next season so we don’t actually have that long to wait to judge if the SFA got it right.
My beef with the SFA is their lack of transparency and accountability coupled with an apparent willingness to manufacture or bend rules to suit this passage of Rangers leaves the body and therefore Scottish Football smothered in allegations of corruption.
As to its President well I think I might be getting sued if I revealed my thoughts on his career. But at the end of the day the clubs and their representatives that should be in control of SFA decision-making are equally – if not more – complicit in this whole shambles.
I would also observe that the media message being trumpeted isn’t actually for the financial benefit of Scottish Football and it isn’t even IMO down to sectarian bias – well not that much 🙄
It’s simply a matter of the media making money and believe me they are in desperate financial straits – much worse than Rangers – and some are even in desperate danger of financial collapse. I actually wonder if any print media will survive the next 5 years as anything more than a printed weekend magazine and all other content online.
The big media wages and power is disappearing down the plughole fast and that’s what drives the frenzy to big-up any circulation boosting scheme and quite simply a re-run of former Old Firm gore – not glory – truly is the initial instalment in making money.
Just think of what follows: Scottish Cup, First Premiership Game, the Premiership title and every other league and cup game next season. They might even be able to keep it going for a couple of seasons.
It won’t raise enough wonga to save the print media but the ‘Old Firm’ might be back in its ‘Rightful Place’. But there again mibbe naw as football is a wonderful but strange game.
What no one in the MSM seems able or willing to do is skewer the myth that everything was rosy financially in Scottish football when these three “big” clubs were in the top league. Strachan harks back to a time when seemingly every ground was full to overflowing every Saturday. Really? 60 years ago maybe, but not in my lifetime, no matter who was in the top league. Where is the logic that says that a Killie v St Mirren crowd will increase just because certain other teams are in the same league? It’s just utter claptrap, his whole supposition. As many others have said, he’s part of the problem which is the people that run the game in Scotland cannot see beyond two teams, and everything and everyone else is part of a minor (but eternally grateful) supporting cast to the only perceived show in town.
Bawsman says:
November 5, 2014 at 10:22 am
I have been tempted to ‘walk away’ but they will have won if I do that
_________________________________________________
Sadly though, they already have. I think you have put the cart before the horse though. I gave up BECAUSE the bad guys have won. Not the other way around.
I prefer to think though that it was they (my club) who “walked way” from me – not me from them. One thing that is inescapable throughout all of this; the clubs do not share our distaste and horror at what has gone on. If they did, something would have been done about it. Apart from trying to shoehorn TRFC into the SPL and then D1, nothing was done.
No matter the reasons, that there changes everything for me. It is very sad because my club was a big part of my childhood, youth, and beyond. I always thought I would bring my kids up with that wonder I experienced, but there is nothing left to share with them. It’s a diffeent world from the 60s and 70s, and football is not the thing it was then. The joy has gone to a large extend anyway, but the last three years have sucked any remaining joy right out of the atmosphere.
I hope the game can still be saved, but my relationship with my club is damaged beyond repair I’m afraid.
(Reaches for medication 🙂
ecobhoy
“…My beef with the SFA is their lack of transparency and accountability coupled with an apparent willingness to manufacture or bend rules to suit this passage of Rangers leaves the body and therefore Scottish Football smothered in allegations of corruption.
As to its President well I think I might be getting sued if I revealed my thoughts on his career. But at the end of the day the clubs and their representatives that should be in control of SFA decision-making are equally – if not more – complicit in this whole shambles.”
ecobhoy, I completely agree with that and I have personally held the view that Celtic/Peter Lawwell have been = involved in the complicity for financial reasons.
To that end, I decided in 2012 that I would not give another penny to Celtic, the pools companies or Sky (or any other pay per view) TV and I stopped buying newspapers too.
mcfc says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:51 am
Social Norms Move On
SMSM football journalists may be frothing at the mouth over the “Old Firm” fixture – some may already have a draft of their game report. However, it will be very instructive to see how any spike in arrests, assaults and domestic violence are portrayed in the wider press and received by the wider population.
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A very sensitive and insightful post and I truly hope that the ‘firebreak’ of time and changing social attitudes will be strong enought to prevent a conflagration.
I have often thought that sports journos should be drafted-in to do what the news colleagues often had to do after an Old Firm games and that was to report from hospital casualty departments.
That’s where they would see the raw, brutal results of their paper hype. I’ve often wondered if they had to see the scenes of carnage and broken lives whether they would so easily stoke-up the flames of hatred and sectarianism that they do.
I agree times are changing and this match may well be a litmus test of how far we have progressed or even how easy it is to regress when tribalism rules the roost.
As always we shall see what we shall see.
jimlarkin says:
November 5, 2014 at 11:31 am
I’ve done all of that too, Jim. Why pay for a product that is basically corrupt. I wondered when the EBT stuff came out and title stripping was considered that SFA/Sevco should return everyones season ticket monies for the seasons in question. Now it seems CFC and, most likely, some other teams are involved in the manipulations to get Sevco to premiership, so my answer is dont give them any more money.
jimlarkin says:
November 5, 2014 at 11:31 am
ecobhoy, I completely agree with that and I have personally held the view that Celtic/Peter Lawwell have been = involved in the complicity for financial reasons.
To that end, I decided in 2012 that I would not give another penny to Celtic, the pools companies or Sky (or any other pay per view) TV and I stopped buying newspapers too.
===================================================
Sadly Celtic and its management aren’t alone in the decisions they have taken not that that makes them acceptable. I, rightly or wrongly, accept that football is simply another commercial business with the fans being treated as just another consumer.
On that basis I doubt if I could find any club to support that would be acceptable so – possibly by default – I am still at Parkhead. The club is changing but then so is society and the ‘Jungle’ isn’t coming back.
I remember as a young teenager being terrified by the place and then becoming part of it and its culture through an alcohol-fired osmosis. But I had the opportunity to travel and work abroad and thankfully that gave me a broader view of Scotland.
So I don’t miss the ‘old days’ although I often struggle to get to grips with the ‘new’ era. But, on balance, I believe as a society we are generally better-off and I don’t speak here simply in financial terms and moving forward.
We can only do our best as we see it but no one ever said it would be easy and it ain’t 😕
I see that the Bulgarian FA are unhappy at the SFA`s handling of the Tonev affair, and are demanding that the SFA produce all evidence.
Perhaps Bawsman and or Auldheid should copy their dossiers to the Bulgarians, to prepare them for the erudite answer they will undoubtedly receive.
Who knows, the door to UEFA may be ever so slightly ajar!
oddjob says:
November 5, 2014 at 12:21 pm
=======================
I can only hope that the English FA don’t reciprocate in “support” of Logan; that would be equally irrelevant.
Ewan Murray telling it as it is on twitter:
Those two certsinly deserve multi-retweets.
Btw, Ewan Murray twitter:
@mrewanmurray
Interesting choice of topic for Jim Murphy to open bids on…
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/jim-murphy-id-scrap-snps-anti-sectarian-football-bill.1415202733
Regardless whether its right or wrong, poorly worded or technically inept. Its an interesting choice, that’s all I’m saying.
Confirmation today from Raith Rovers that Turnbull Hutton is standing down as Chairman.
I’m sorry to see someone who is not afraid to express his honestly held views being lost to the Leagues, which is a loss for transparency and openness.
But good luck in your retirement, Turnbull. You will be missed.
http://www.raithrovers.net/17056/statement-by-the-board-of-directors.htm
The financial figures included in the article also demonstrate the tight budgets that the lower league clubs have to manage, which is of course is in stark contrast to how one club in particular is currently being run.
Smugas says:
November 5, 2014 at 10:28 am
…
And yes, I fully expect a sponsorship deal to magically appear on their return, and for this to be thrust down my throat as ‘the benefit.’
=========================================================
Absolutely.
Whilst hoping that the SFA/SPFL change their ways, I think we will see ‘normal service has resumed’.
With ‘Rangers return’ to the top league, assorted sponsorship deals may indeed appear, and the SFA/SPFL will manage only good/positive news through the SMSM.
It will be supported by a theme that the Scottish football authorities made the right, tough decisions wrt the Govan club – and now Scottish football will be better for it.
The ends justified the means.
And they will trumpet yet again: “It’s time to move on…”
The more I think about, the more I expect that nothing will change at all – and the SFA/SPFL/the member clubs will have learned precisely nothing in the last 3 years or so.
Hearing Mr Turnbull is retiring. Good luck to him and his family. Just going over his speech on the Hampden steps when he was saying clubs were being threatened that an SPL2 would replace any of the first division teams who would not vote TRFC into the old first division. Right there. A LEAGUE INVENTED AND DESIGNED FOR SEVCO SCOTLAND,(That’s what they were at the time). This was from the games Administrators.A short leap from there to Mr Strachans manipulated leagues eh?
Graham Speirs,
You obviously read this blog and are aware of it’s overwhelming opinion of the all-too-soon Celtic v TRFC match.
Your rather childish playing down of such opinions is of nothing compared to your lack of understanding of the dastardly crime of ‘wife beating’, a crime that has really only been recognised as a serious crime within my lifetime. In relatively recent years more enlightened people than you introduced a ‘Zero Tolerance’ campaign to bring this disgusting display of what many considered to be a man’s right (to punish his wife) to the forefront of public attention, after centuries of turning a blind eye.
Now, you, a supposedly ‘serious journalist’ are happy to downplay the seriousness of this crime that damages both the unfortunate wives and the children who witness it, in order to hype up a game you see as important in the re-emergence of your favourite football club!
I suspect you don’t really buy into the idea that domestic abuse is acceptable, or should be written of in such a disparaging way, you are just desperate to downplay the words of people who offer a challenge to your little world. What you fail to realise is that this article just shows how you are prepared to sway with the wind as a part of the establishment hacks and that previous morally brave articles about sectarianism in football and RFC’s liquidation were just efforts to establish yourself as a journalist in the higher echelons of the news media. I really hope that someone from the feminist movement, or a campaigner on behalf of battered wives and partners, not to forget the child victims, takes you and your low quality newspaper to task over this article.
For the record, I am well aware that it is not only women who are victims of domestic abuse, but I’d suspect almost 100% of incidences of football related domestic violence would find women to be the victims, and so have limited this post to the effect on women and children subjected to the angry losers of this most violent of sporting occasions.
Take a good look at your article, and ask yourself what kind of a man would dismiss domestic abuse merely to hype up a football match; before it’s too late.
@Oldfirmfacts1
Sons of Struth have confirmed plans to burn a Mike Ashley effigy tonight and then be bought over and renamed by Mike Ashley tomorrow.
After 10 days and 2 emails, I’m still waiting for a response from the ‘Head of Communications’ at the SFA.
Maybe Darryl could learn something from Turnbull Hutton – who generously responded to my email within an hour ! 😯
“Subject: Thanks & all the best.
Dear Turnbull,
just read that you have decided to stand down as Chairman of Raith Rovers.
I’m sure you must have earned a rest, and leaving the club in profit – again – is a great example for other Scottish clubs.
Scottish football would benefit from having more individuals with your honesty and commitment, and I’m sure you will be missed by many in the game, including myself as a Celtic fan.
I guess that you might not be the type who would ‘retire’ fully, so all the best in your next endeavours.
Regards,
[StevieBC] ”
================
“[StevieBC]
Thanks for that – very kind of you!
Truth is the club needs to embark on its next 5 year plan and I don’t fancy being 74 to see it through.
Timing’s right to hand over the baton.
Kind regards
Turnbull”
=========================
Seems like a thoroughly decent chap – and who appreciates contact from football fans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/05/sports/soccer/scottish-club-hamilton-academical-combines-soccer-and-sobriety.html?ref=soccer&_r=0
Accies make the NY Times
ernie says:
November 5, 2014 at 12:42 pm
I can only hope that the English FA don’t reciprocate in “support” of Logan; that would be equally irrelevant.
===================
…and I can only hope you are never convicted of a crime when there is no proof you committed it and no witnesses.
oddjob says:
November 4, 2014 at 8:59 pm
“The draw for the next round has actually paired ALL FOURTEEN of the “top” clubs .
Can any of our mathematician friends calculate the odds on such an outcome?”
———————
I couldn’t claim to be a mathematician but it was an intriguing inquiry. After a couple of pages of scribbling and some research I decided the task was beyond me.
As there were roughly equal number of Premier League (14) and non-Premier League (18) clubs in the draw then you might expect an equal spread of
NPL v NPL
NPL v PL &
PL v PL
Probably around 30% in each category. However probability doesn’t always alight on the most likely outcomes. All outcomes are possible; it’s just that some are more probable than others.
As an illustration, I came across an article concerning the champions league draw for the last sixteen in 2013. Apparently there were over 2 million permutations of pairings that could be obtained from the sixteen teams, each as likely as the next. However the various seeding processes cut this down to perhaps a few thousand permutations. It transpired that the live draw was an exact match of the rehearsal that had taken place the night before. Improbable? Yes, highly! Impossible? Obviously not.
Any single draw could not be taken as significant in itself. You need a whole series of data exhibiting a pattern to be able to draw conclusions.
Here’s the short article written by proper statisticians to illustrate what a strange thing chance actually is. As the writer says, the chances of the Champions League draw rehearsal matching exactly the live draw was the same as tossing a coin and getting 12 ‘Heads’ in succession.
http://www.significancemagazine.org/details/webexclusive/4365001/Football-formulae-the-maths-behind-the-UEFA-Champions-League-draw.html
What a brilliant article @andy. We do focus a lot on the negatives in the sport but stories like this are an inspiration. To me, it represents everything football should be about. If a club with such modest means can achieve so much how much more could the land’s biggest clubs? Having observed the Murray era from afar the phrase ‘traitors to the community’ sums up exactly how I felt about that.
Never mind, it’s on the Beeb. Logan lied. Why? Now there’s an interesting discussion.
Oh, and uth, what has the Bulgarian FA got to do with it? This is about two guys on a football pitch. One is lying and the other is telling the truth about a racial slur. It’s got nothing to with whatever club they play for never mind their nationalities. I have no problem with either of them being innocent but I was commenting on the ridiculous intervention by the Bulgarian FA and the view that it was good news.
Whatever next? Manager asking for “these people” to be named depending on the outcome of the appeal?
Good article on Accies. A couple of little errors, it was the fourth tier we were relegated to as a result of the players strike in 2000 and our home support has increased this season, I think we can safely say 1500 now.
ernie says:
November 5, 2014 at 6:58 pm
Whatever next? Manager asking for “these people” to be named depending on the outcome of the appeal?
________________________________________________
No!! Just publish the ‘evidence’.
ernie says:
November 5, 2014 at 6:58 pm
=================================
To be branded a racist in this day and age carries a stigma and will close doors to a person. That’s fine if that person is a genuine racist and can be proven to be so. It must be beyond reasonable doubt and this one can’t be.
Ernie says
5 November 2014 @ 6.58 pm
When and where was it said that the Bulgarian intervention was good news?
StevieBC says:
November 5, 2014 at 5:37 pm
Started emailing Turnbull about 2 years ago about all things football and especially the Scottish Game and the corrupt SFA. To date he has courteously replied to every email I have sent. A very engaging fellow indeed.
andygraham.66 says:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/05/sports/soccer/scottish-club-hamilton-academical-combines-soccer-and-sobriety.html?ref=soccer&_r=0
Accies make the NY Times
—————————————–
A great wee article. As a Hibby I should hate Hamilton for doing us in the playoffs, but actually I don’t. I respect the club very much for relying on local Scots lads and giving them the chance to play at a high level. Something Hibs should be doing, and I am hoping the tie-up with Spartans will achieve that in years to come.
I’ve never been to Hamilton in my puff but that article piqued my interest.
Funny how it takes an article from the US Press to do that.
I guess the scottish sports press has other matters from “bigger” clubs to contend with.
I think the over publicised upcoming cup fixture needs to be kept in perspective. Rangers and Celtic were always going to meet again. Even if the SFA had applied the rules scrupulously, some version of Rangers would have emerged to fight another day. The supporter base is too enduring to allow their club (non legal entity) to evaporate into the ephemera.
The issue is not with this fixture as it was an inevitability. What is at issue is the history of the last two years. What is at issue is the media focus which so obviously directs itself toward a predetermined outcome of sorts.
We know chapter and verse how circumstances have been manipulated to ensure that a Rangers survived; although its current condition seems to be a judgement on what has gone on up till now. We know the media will elaborate on the raising of an eyebrow if it suits there agenda and ignore an anguished scream if it does not.
The tie itself stands alone. It may appear incongruous but it is the reality of the situation. Many supporters of both clubs will look forward to the fixture and I don’t believe it is for us to tell them what to think. They need to figure that out for themselves.
What can be assured is that the conduct of football’s governance will not take place without comment. I think it is quite clear that even the deepest recesses of the SMSM have found it difficult to prevent inquisitive glare being shone on their shortcomings. We cannot replay history but we can have some effect on how it will later be read. I think we already have.
If the supporters want to revel in an anachronistic rivalry, there is little to stop them. I don’t think that’s a battle worth fighting. Governance and the media are the soft underbelly that can be endlessly prodded in an attempt to bring about some semblance of sanity.
Apologies for bringing up Spiers’ article again but it is worth noting that children of both sexes are often the subject of domestic violence.
In a Twitter exchange I had with him earlier today, his response to a non-abusive statement that his position trivialised domestic violence, was to be dismissive with no apparent consideration that his words could have been interpreted as such. It should be noted that he never actually denied it.
Para Handy says:
November 5, 2014 at 9:05 pm
______________________________________________
Arrogance, that’s what it is. I tweeted him too about the absolute disgrace of his article. Ignored. Surprised? No!!
andygraham.66 says:
November 4, 2014 at 10:34 pm
jean7brodie says:
November 5, 2014 at 9:23 pm
I don’t think Mr Spiers is as intelligent as he would like us to think he is, not after that article.
I tell you what. The English commentators vitriolic feedback on man city’s efforts in Europe this season is offering much needed light relief!
oddjob says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:36 pm
=====================
TU’s in the original post. That’s all; well aware that that’s only only here though. The point I’m making is that considering this on the basis of what team the individuals play for or, even more ridiculous, the country they were born in should not be, in my view, the ethos of TSFM.
===============
jean7brodie says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:07 pm
&
upthehoops says:
November 5, 2014 at 8:21 pm
========================
You misunderstand me; I have no idea who is lying and who is telling the truth. However, I definitely can not judge on the basis of what team the respective guys play for or their nationality.
I’m in TD overload ….again! Guess I need to toe the line…..again! Just like Logan/Tenov (select as per the team you support).
Ernie says:
You misunderstand me; I have no idea who is lying and who is telling the truth. However, I definitely can not judge on the basis of what team the respective guys play for or their nationality.
I’m in TD overload ….again! Guess I need to toe the line…..again! Just like Logan/Tenov (select as per the team you support).
—————
You’ve broken the ‘thou shalt not criticise celtic” rule ernie 😐
Bill1903 says:
November 5, 2014 at 10:18 pm
—
You’ve broken the ‘thou shalt not criticise celtic” rule ernie
—
You’ve not been on many Celtic sites, by the look of things.
Turnbull Hutton
Shining integrity and pithy wit
Stands up to be counted
Without Fear or Favour
An example to all of us
Ernie
Like you I have no knowledge of who is right or wrong in the Logan/Tonev matter.
The Bulgarians have become involved because one of their young players has been branded as a fascist. Neither you or I can deny them that intervention. They no doubt wish to protect the player in the long term.
In my original post, I intended to highlight the probable response by the SFA,hence my reference to Bawsman and Auldheid.
There is no good news here, and I feel Bill 1903`s later comments are completely out of order
iamacant @ 9.49pm:
“I don’t think Mr Spiers is as intelligent as he would like us to think he is, not after that article.”
When discussing football, Graham Speirs has long been nothing more than a tabloid journalist with a broadsheet vocabulary.
This is not a downer on Hamilton, more illustrative of Scottish football. Caught up this evening with a Gers friend who works overseas. He was back in Scotland last week, looking around Uni’s with his son. On Saturday afternoon of the Accies-Jags game they rushed to get to the match. Turn up 6 mins late and he looks to pay for 2 adults (£46) at the turnstile with a debit card. Not accepted – cash only. Gets set to the main entrance – still no capacity to let him in. Told to go to the cash point at Waitrose (in Bothwell I presume!). Not surprisingly gets back in the car and turns back home. Now I get that Hamilton are a great community club and are a breath of fresh air this year – but dearly me.
Last post
“Fascist” should be “racist”
Of course that should be dearie me. And the point being that Scotitish football (not just Hamilton) needs to get fit to compete with the competition for our limited £s.
Ernie and Bill
No-one here is criticising your team or player.
I think questions are being asked because no-one here trusts anything that comes out from the SFA.
If there is evidence that the player used racist comments then lets get him out the game.
We, the public, do not necessarily need to see or hear the evidence but I’m sure his club and country deserve to do so as it affects his availability.
If the evidence exists then I’m sure both will back away sharpish from supporting the player.
Fairly simple really and I don’t think there’s any need for chippiness here.
As I said above no-one is criticising the player or his team.
He may be absolutely correct in which case the offender should be kicked out.
He may have mis-heard in which case this is all an unfortunate misunderstanding leaving the accused as a victim.
The point is we don’t know what was said or heard and therefore we are in no position to judge.
This site tries its damnest to be as evidence-based as possible. With this incident evidence is in short supply.
As the prosecutor it’s up to the SFA to make the case and out of courtesy to the player, his club and country supply the evidence.
It would appear that so far they have failed to do that.
Does the SFA have to mis-handle everything?
Deary me? Honestly? Who ever contemplates turning up at a football match in Scotland brandishing only plastic? We are struggling to catch up with the 20th century here let alone the 21st. All joking aside, the cost to implement a card payment system plus either absorb the processing fee or pass it on to the customer is probably just not worth the time of 95% of clubs.
Smugas says:
November 5, 2014 at 9:55 pm
I tell you what. The English commentators vitriolic feedback on man city’s efforts in Europe this season is offering much needed light relief!
———-
As poor as city are recently – especially in Europe – and make no mistake there are far too many in the team taking money on false pretences – the press reaction is close to hyper-ventilating hysteria. The premiss seems to be that the EPL is the best in the world by far, and so the EPL champions should be strolling to the group stage and probably at least the final. When lazy football journalists are denied the lazy headlines they believe they deserve, we get lazy headlines lashing out as teams for their failure to deliver – not good football – not victory – but the lazy, pre-written narrative. Maybe it’s time the NUJ started looking at the depressingly low standards of some of it’s members.
A response to my complaint to the editorial team. At least they responded.
I’m a bit disappointed with the stance though. It seems to be the ‘have your cake and eat it’ defence, by which I mean that if you preface some revolting sentiment with ‘call me a hypocrite’ you can say anything you want.
————————————————————————————–
Mr
Thanks for taking the time to send us your feedback.
With respect, I’m afraid I can’t agree with your conclusion that this online opinion column either trivialises domestic abuse or uses it as a source of humour.
The author begins the article by acknowledging possible accusations of hypocrisy, refers to his many previous columns exploring the ramifications of a football match (such as the above), but admits very openly that, despite his feelings of revulsion, he feels genuine excitement about the impending cup tie…the inherent conflict is the point of a carefully thought-out column.
We take our social responsibilities very seriously, but it would be disingenuous for us to ignore something that’s happening in the real world, and both report and comment on it as part of our role in a free media.
Regards,
Calum Macdonald
Group Digital Editor
Cygnus X2 says:
November 6, 2014 at 5:13 am
We take our social responsibilities very seriously, but it would be disingenuous for us to ignore something that’s happening in the real world, and both report and comment on it as part of our role in a free media.
Regards,
Calum Macdonald
Group Digital Editor
=================================
Something happened in the real world in 2012. Rangers Football Club, a single company entity, was liquidated. The liquidation process continues, and meanwhile a completely new entity attached to the name Rangers has been granted entrance to the Scottish Senior Leagues and currently sits in the Championship.
Why does his paper never report that?
November 5, 2014 at 9:55 pm
I tell you what. The English commentators vitriolic feedback on man city’s efforts in Europe this season is offering much needed light relief!
=================================
For the money their benefactors have spent perhaps the commentators maybe have a point. For me as a Celtic fan it puts in perspective the savaging the Scottish media give my club if they don’t do well in that tournament.
alexander276 says:
November 5, 2014 at 11:32 pm
===================================
No-one is saying that and I suspect you know that fine well. Grow up.