A Guest Blog for TSFM by Auldheid
It has been some six months since we drew readers’ attention to documents that should have been provided by Rangers administrators Duff and Phelps in March 2012 to Harper MacLeod who acted on behalf of the then Scottish Premier League to investigate the use of side letters and employee benefit trust payments made by Rangers from the inception of the SPL in July 1998. You can read the previous blogs/correspondence for background at
- http://sfm.scot/scottish-football-an-honest-game-honestly-governed
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/
- http://sfm.scot/an-honest-game-convince-us/https://sfmarchive.privateland.net/it-takes-two-to-tangle/
In the latest letter below sent to Harper MacLeod and SPL Board members on 5th September 2014, you will find the story of what happened when the LNS Decision was delivered to the SPL Board and how the withholding of those same documents not only meant The Commission was misled from the outset in its terms of reference, but how the SPL Board were also incorrectly advised as a consequence of the same concealment.
It is a matter of some regret that secrecy, concealment and non-accountability continues to be the order of the day, not only in Scottish football but in the media coverage of this particular part of its history, but if this series of blogs does nothing else it will bring out the truth not only about the use of ebts but the deceitful attempts thereafter to try and minimise the damage caused. The Inaction will also stand as an indictment against all those responsible in the game and the media who cover it.
Letter to Harper MacLeod
Dear Mr McKenzie
We write further to our letters of 19th February, 29 March and reminder letter of 18th May 2014 to ask if the SPFL are now , after studiously ignoring for 6 months the correspondence and evidence provided, going to reconsider their position in respect of the Lord Nimmo Smith Commission and Decision of 28 February 2013?
In the detail of our letter of 29 March we suggested that It may be prudent to wait for the results of HMRC’s appeal to the UTT concerning the regularity or otherwise of ebt payments made under the MGMRT arrangement before embarking on any premature decision on the integrity of the LNS Commission Decision with regard to the true nature of the REBT payments being concealed from it.
The UTT have ruled and we know that payments under the MGMRT ebt arrangement are, for the time being and until the Court of Sessions re-examine the case at some future date , “lawful” or “not irregular” in tax terms.
However convenient as that may be to put off addressing the wider issue of the true nature of the MGRT ebts used by Rangers, it is no reason in terms of the LNS Commission, not to examine the effect of the concealment from yourselves as commissioners and the SPL of ebt payments made from 2000 to 2002/03 under the REBT arrangements to Tor Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer which were already ruled irregular by a separate FTT investigating the use of the same Discounted Option Scheme by Aberdeen Asset Management.
We remind you that in the earlier undated letter sent on 19th February we provided irrefutable evidence that
- Yourself, acting as the investigating agent for the SPL, was not provided with all the documentation you requested on 5th March 2012
- That documentation clearly demonstrated that in the case of two players named on the Commission list (Ronald De Boer and Tor Andre Flo) payments were made via an irregular ebt mechanism that subsequently rendered them subject to tax which HMRC has been trying unsuccessfully to collect since May 2011, a year before the commissioning process commenced.
- That in both cases side letters concealed from both football and tax authorities were a feature, whilst later relevant documentation revealing their true irregular nature was not provided as directed by yourselves to the Commission itself.
It is now our firm contention that
- The findings of Lord Nimmo Smith from paras 104 to 106 of his Decision that no sporting advantage accrued must be set aside where now known irregular payments have occurred. Using Lord Nimmo Smith’s argument sporting advantage had to accrue from season 1999/2000 to 2002/03 and the SPFL need to address that truth and consequences for our game to move on.
- Whilst it is unclear which SPL/SFA rules would have been breached by making irregular payments, it was not the rules the Commission was directed to examine as, according to the Lord Nimmo Smith Decision para 88 “ There may be extreme cases in which there is such a fundamental defect that the registration of a player must be treated as having been invalid from the outset “
- Payment by irregular means clearly constitute such a fundamental defect and so an extreme case. These payments should not have been conflated with other payments which are for the time being not irregular and to allow an investigation to stand that wrongly treated them under the same rules as the Commission did for regular payments would be a clear miscarriage of justice caused itself by apparent deception of the Commission by those whose very behaviour it was commissioned to investigate! (If we were using lay man terms we could say that the SP(F)L clubs and their supporters were and are being treated like mugs by those governing our game.)
On the matter of that apparent deception we can even go further on its impact. It is a fact that the SPL never made any public announcement as a Board of acceptance of the Lord Nimmo Smith decision. There was one individual statement but no official SPL Board announcement.
We understand that the matter of making an appeal was raised by the SPL Board on 28 Feb 2013 during a telephone conference meeting, not a face to face one, to discuss the most serious issue ever facing Scottish football and that a decision was delayed for 7 days by which time the date for lodging an appeal was about to end.
During the discussions by e mail some Board members expressed dissatisfaction at the token nature of the punishment for what Rangers had been found guilty of (basically misregistration of players) but also concerns about how no sporting advantage had been obtained through the use of ebts with side letters.
The Board were persuaded by your good self that Rangers had a sound argument that no sporting advantage had accrued. The Board were told that Rangers in effect had said that if the EBT details were required to be disclosed, the reason they did not disclose them was because of an error by Rangers in understanding what was required to be disclosed and that in any event they had secured no competitive advantage from not disclosing since the tax position would have been the same whether they disclosed to the SPL/SFA or not.
Given our opening points we suggest that during the investigation had you had in your possession the withheld evidence we supplied in our letter of 19 February 2014 (and notwithstanding the point re different terms of reference resulting) you would have been able to demonstrate the flaw in this argument to the SPL Board when they were asking your advice on the legal position in early March 2013.
It is difficult to accept that there was an error in understanding that side letters should not be disclosed as part of player registration when our supplied evidence shows that in 2005 Rangers deliberately concealed the existence of side letter for De Boer and Flo from HMRC.
Far from suggesting an error in understanding, this suggests that Rangers understood that to reveal the existence of such letters would remove the tax advantage that ebts gave them and that this advantage depended upon side letters being kept secret from authority and that includes football authority, lest informing them alerted HMRC to their existence. The QC advice contained in the withheld documents is that this deliberate concealment in 2005 demonstrated Rangers true intention of putting cash in the hands of player as part of their remuneration package.
It is also clear that revelation of these particular side letters and their circumstances would indeed have changed the tax position since HMRC have billed Rangers for the tax due on the payments to De Boer and Flo.
HMRC have not done so for Moore because the absence of a side letter puts the tax due on that transaction outside the extended time limit rules that allowed them to pursue payment for Flo and De Boer, but regardless of this and regardless of whether it was notified to the SFA, Moore was paid by an irregular means not available to other clubs..
The questions for yourself Mr McKenzie is had you been in possession then of the information supplied by TSFM would you at the time of investigation been in a better position to either refute the case Rangers made in their defence or to advise the SPL Board that the evidence of deliberate concealment from HMRC in 2005 of what transpired to be irregular payments, gave the SPL Board reason for entering an appeal?
Did the very absence of that material, which was not your fault, prevent you from briefing the SPL Board in a way that you might have done had you had all the evidence to hand?
We think the original evidence supplied and the questions raised now as a result of more fully appreciating what was hidden from the then SPL Board (and so SPL clubs) in March 2013 requires that the SPFL conduct a new cleansing investigation into :
- The apparent deception by Duff and Phelps of the SPL led Commission ,
- Why the SFA President, Campbell Ogilvie, did not advise or correct Lord Nimmo Smith or The SPL and
- The implications of the use of now revealed irregular payments by Rangers FC during seasons 1999/2000 to 2002/03.
This letter has been sent by e mail to the current SPL Board members and also by mail or e mail to the then Board Members who, whilst no longer in position might have their own views on what needs to be done on this issue to restore integrity to the very processes Scottish football relies on to ensure fair play.
Good afternoon
Doesn’t know anyone from Govan by any chance?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2769163/Moroccan-businessman-boasted-friends-Roman-Abramovich-Jose-Mourinho-buy-football-club-just-1.html
On another note I hope that Celtic never have to play TRFC. Anyone in George Square last friday evening witnessed the type of people who follow TRFC. Society and football would be well rid.
Any way in case you missed it Ashley just took a £43m punt on Tesco.
Maybe if the bet comes in he will buy the club from Govan for a bit of fun.
http://news.sky.com/story/1341921/tesco-troubles-mike-ashley-makes-43m-bet
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Ashley won’t be having a bit of fun with his money, that’s for sure. He’ll put money in if he thinks he’ll get substantially more back. That’s his kind of fun. With Rangers Retail all stitched up, and the naming rights for Ibrox in his back pocket, Rangers has nothing left for him. In my opinion, of course, maybe the Telegraph know better.
Tesco have been fiddling the finances as well! 😳
But I don’t think its a Ratner, Mikes a shrewd guy.
Hoopy 7 says:
September 25, 2014 at 4:26 pm
Good afternoon
Doesn’t know anyone from Govan by any chance?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2769163/Moroccan-businessman-boasted-friends-Roman-Abramovich-Jose-Mourinho-buy-football-club-just-1.html
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At the risk perhaps of incurring Auldheid’s wrath…I am having difficulty working out how the FFP rules can actually be effectively managed by UEFA.
The basic theory seems sound, [if I have it right]: clubs should operate within their financial means.
But the above story again highlights that at one end of the spectrum the local FA’s/UEFA allow all sorts of chancers and spivs like Whyte, Green – and many others I’m sure in England and across Europe – to take control of a senior club – without too many questions or interference/background checking by the local FA’s.
And yet, simultaneously UEFA wants to effectively ‘advise and/or punish’ senior clubs to run their businesses more prudently.
And ultimately, if say Real Madrid or Milan just don’t like the FFP rules shirley they could be challenged in court for years to come, e.g. ‘restriction of trade’ – despite conditions of UEFA membership ?
With FFP rules now implemented does anyone think that another (S)DM shambles could be avoided in the future ?
If the FFP rules become highly unpopular will the big clubs simply threaten to set up their own Euro franchise – and force UEFA to back down ?
He will make a reasonable return quickly on his Tesco punt,this is what he does,as for his interest in sevco the real concern here is if his punts elsewhere go tits up and he needs to off load, well dont look to far away from govan for the answer
MercDoc says:
September 25, 2014 at 4:48 pm
Tesco have been fiddling the finances as well! 😳
But I don’t think its a Ratner, Mikes a shrewd guy.
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Yes…but does Ashley get a BOGOF if he eventually buys the shares ?
I’ll get my calculator… 😕
He’ll either get cheap shares or a wee payoff depending on the strikeprice that was agreed.
Only prioblem with this is that it is the same type (I think) of deal that had Porsche shorting VW and basically bringing the company down.
Funnily enough StevieBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29349740
scottc says:
September 25, 2014 at 6:44 pm
StevieBC says:
September 25, 2014 at 4:53 pm
…
Funnily enough StevieBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29349740
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Thanks for that sc :proof that I’m not as daft as I look. 🙄
And what is strikingly relevant about this story and the RFC/TRFC saga is that the Bampots championed ‘sporting integrity’ – whereas the football governing bodies decided to place business and commercial interests ahead of sporting ideals.
To my way of thinking that is inconsistent with FFP.
If football clubs are deemed businesses first by the governing bodies – then they have to let the market decide which clubs/companies survive and prosper – and which ones fail to survive.
And nobody ever said that business was ‘fair’.
cowanpete says:
September 25, 2014 at 10:52 am
I am aware that it is very likely TRFC and Celtic will play in a match together. Assuming TRFC remain in business and gain promotion it could be as early as August 2015, but possibly earlier.
It is my opinion that the only parties looking forward to this are the Scottish “press” and many of the TRFC fans.
If that game ultimately ends up at Ibrox I would love to see the CFC fans refusing to turn up.
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I can honestly say as a Celtic fan I have little desire at all for my club to play TRFC, while knowing it will eventually be unavoidable. I cannot speak for every Celtic fan but I do know many who are of the same view. Despite that, the media instantly label us as liars if we dare express that view. They then go on to tell us Celtic miss Rangers and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise because they are also liars. It always intrigues me why no-one from the media ever feels the need to say Rangers miss Celtic. I guess it is all to do with the agreed view that without Rangers there is no Scottish football.
upthehoops says:
September 25, 2014 at 8:16 pm
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My greatest wish/hope is that we never play any form of Rangers again,,,,,ever.
upthehoops says:
September 25, 2014 at 8:16 pm
It always intrigues me why no-one from the media ever feels the need to say Rangers miss Celtic
……………
Its about time someone stated the obvious
TRFC fans miss the days when RFC were beating Celtic regularly
But
That longing is tempered by the likelihood that for the foreseeable future TRFC are more likely to be humped by Celtic than to beat them
And
As for Celtic fans
They dont miss beating Rangers. That longing died with liquidation
But
They will take great pleasure in humping TRFC
Not because they are RFC
But because TRFC have claimed the worse elements of RFC baggage that could have been buried with dignity
Dearie Me
Are there no financial people advising the BBC or the UoF?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29371964
“Any non-shareholder prepared to invest significant funds in Rangers – and the South African-based businessman, Dave King, remains committed to putting money into the club that he has supported since his childhood in Glasgow – would seek an element of control. Some shareholders and directors have previously resisted King for that reason, but members of the current board have been in discussions about King investing.”
Followed by
Sandy Easdale, who is chairman of the football board but not a plc director, owns 5.21% of the company and has proxy voting rights for, but does not own, a further 20.94%. The figures are significant because any resolution for dis-application of pre-emption rights – to allow shares to be issued to non-shareholders – requires a 75% majority at the AGM and Easdale controls 26.15%.”
That situation alone irks the Union of Fans, a coalition of Rangers supporters groups, which has previously called for the plc board to remove Easdale from his position at the club.
“Mr Easdale and his associates have invested just enough to keep them above the 25% mark required to hold a veto over any inward investment to the club via a further, more substantial, share offer,” said the UoF in a statement.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This piece suggests that disapplication of pre-emption rights is essential to enable Mr King to invest in TRFC
Garbage
If Dave King wants to buy a significant stake in RIFC
All he has to do is to approach current shareholders and reach an agreement to buy their shares
There is no requirement for new shares to be created
Disapplication of pre-emption rights is only essential to permit the Board to offer discounted shares to selected Spivs who may or may not be existing shareholders
To protect existing shareholders from dilution the law requires a 75% majority in a vote involving all shareholders
So
Disapplication gives the Board complete freedom to ignore the wishes of up to 25% of existing shareholders when creating new shares
Its got nothing to do with locking Dave King out of share ownership
Its got everything to do with increasing Spiv ownership of RIFC from around 75% to well over 90%
And as for Easdale
Anybody who thinks he bought extra shares to prevent dilution of the minority shareholders should go back to reading the Dandy
GoosyGoosy says:
September 25, 2014 at 11:30 pm
‘…They dont miss beating Rangers. That longing died with liquidation
But
They will take great pleasure in humping TRFC
Not because they are RFC
But because TRFC have claimed the worse elements of RFC baggage that could have been buried with dignity.’
———
I wouldn’t presume to argue against that being the view of at least some of the Celtic support.
Personally,though, I think it’s a view that encourages the Football Authorities in their fundamental wrongdoing, and let’s them smile conspiratorially, knowing that they can get away with monstrously deceitful practices.
And makes it more likely that they will persist in their destruction of any idea of fairness in sport.
If people can be so easily bought off their pursuit of truth by the simple prospect of ‘humping’ TRFC as some kind of ersatz Rangers, then the COs and Regans of this world will be well content.
They will have won, at the expense of any kind of integrity.
And Scottish Football itself will be run by the same kind of charlatans and strangers to Truth as presently run the affairs of TRFC.
In my opinion.
The baddies at the heart of our game must be outed, and routed, rather than encouraged.
GoosyGoosy says:
September 26, 2014 at 12:38 am
‘..Are there no financial people advising the BBC or the UoF?..’
——-
No. One looks in vain for signs of any serious attempt by people like Wilson (or the Chick Youngs, Kenny McIntyres, and general run of BBC Radio Scotland people) to be professionally objective in their handling of anything to do with the saga.
Wilson has never asked King why, if he’s that keen, he hasn’t done the obvious thing: offer a reasonable price to buy shares in some quantity.
Wilson is another Keef, I’m afraid. Suckered by convicted criminals who talk big, but deliver little.
One would, in this cynical world,begin to ask about personal integrity, when there is so much readiness to accept uncritically what a rich man has to say. :slamb:
John Clark says
This must be the time to start the challenge for keefs crown as bullish!ter of the year, better look out the cotton wool our ears are about to bleed for the next 6 month’s
An informative article about another aspect of the corrupt world of football finance that is making our clubs success in europe practically impossible.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/sep/23/fifa-third-party-ownership
Can a UEFA ban be policed efectively when so many have so much to lose?
On the subject of Celtic fans who may or may not want to play “a” Rangers, I give you: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2615347/Celtic-Under-17s-defeat-Rangers-Glasgow-Cup-Final-match-marred-flares-broken-seats-crowd-trouble.html
and also would like to point out the “bampot” is not always preceded by “internet”.
Is Phil on vacation,or on garden leave
Think its plain that a huge part of the Celtic support want the return of the Rangers rivalry.
Just one look at the empty seats around Celtic Park tells the story. For the rest of the SPL it is an opportunity for Celtic it means lots of meaningless home matches with no atmosphere, no excitement.
Football needs rivalry,it is still there,even in this blog, the evidence is plain for all to see.
After all there would be little interest in a Partick Thistle tax case?
TV wants it, Scottish football wants it, supporters want it, why, because it is great theater.
Something that is badly missing.
yourhavingalaugh says:
September 26, 2014 at 10:35 am
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Is Phil on vacation,or on garden leave
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Subtle but quite funny 😛
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
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Think its plain that a huge part of the Celtic support want the return of the Rangers rivalry.
Just one look at the empty seats around Celtic Park tells the story. For the rest of the SPL it is an opportunity for Celtic it means lots of meaningless home matches with no atmosphere, no excitement.
Football needs rivalry,it is still there,even in this blog, the evidence is plain for all to see.
After all there would be little interest in a Partick Thistle tax case?
TV wants it, Scottish football wants it, supporters want it, why, because it is great theater.
Something that is badly missing.
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You’re so wrong. Most Celtic fans just want competition. The problem is that none of the other clubs have been able to step up to the plate as of yet. Given time they will. However the MSM seem to be convinced that the only team that can provide this competition are Rangers. It will be interesting to see how it gets portrayed when a Rangers team are struggling in the premier division, as they will be (unless of course some Daddy Warbucks makes an appearance). Who or what will be to blame then?
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
TV wants it, Scottish football wants it, supporters want it, why, because it is great theater.
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Theater?…..If you miss this Theater and the hatred and up to your knees,may i suggest you buy a box set of old firm games. I for one don’t miss them,That kind of Theater i and many others can do without 👿
So you have talked to them all_have you? Neither have I but I see with my eyes the evidence of empty seats.
Rangers Celtic is a historical rivalry known throughout the world.
Give the other’s time, how long 20 years, might be too late.The drift from crowds of 60,000 to today’s paltry crowds and interest is like a tsunami.
You could say the same about TRFC.
SPFL is what they want
how long 20 years. Playing against celtic and competing against celtic are two completely different things.How long would TRFC fans stay and watch a humiliation against celtic?….20 years.
And do you know how much up to our knees we would be if every game TRFC played against celtic they got well and truly beaten?
Ps i have not talked to them all, but the ones i have don’t miss it. A cheat free and up to there knees free strong
Go on, I’ll bite too Rhaps.
Had Partick Thistle won as many trophies during their tax misdemeanours simultaneously costing me handsomely to faithfully follow a much loved pursuit that turned out to be a corrupt officials plaything, and then, having been caught more red handed than tonto to be told that guilty didn’t actually mean guilty after all, and yet somewhat surprisingly to come “out of liquidation (c) SMSM),” be artificially contrived into the fourth division (not their first choice, nor second) and then receive every helping hand possible to climb back up then I think you’d probably find there was a degree of interest in the famous fictional firhill farrago ((c) me btw).
And I know precisely which club would be at the forefront of the lynch mob too.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
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Obviously, you have been supporting Celtic a lot longer and more often than me and have the inside knowledge…
I and many of my friends and family do NOT want any form of the old Rangers in the top League, what they want is more of a challenge as they miss that.
Games against some of the smaller teams are now taken for granted, whereas before, you knew you had to field your best team in every game as not doing so could hand Rangers an advantage. That coincidently, was the same with United and Aberdeen in the 80’s.
That is what I miss, that and that alone!
I do not miss being looked at as a 2nd class citizen, I do not miss not being able to walk anywhere with my colours without being subjected to verbal and on the odd occasion, physical abuse, I do not miss the hatred and bile spewed in my direction on a regular basis from people who don’t know me. I do not miss the constant lording it over me with constant references to my lack of personal hygiene, odd sexual preferences and supposed foreign nationality.
I did not know it at the time but now, I also do not miss the cheating!
So looks like I am among the minority of Celtic supporters. I am one of those who believe Scotland is the best place to play our football, that money should be more evenly spread, competition should be fostered across the top division and that a league without Rangers (The artist formally known as Rangers) and the past they want to drag into the future, would be a league worth supporting.
Missed the edit Rangers Celtic is a historical rivalry known throughout the world…..that rivalry died when rangers died, bringing on a late substitute is no old firm no matter how you dress it up
Rhapsody in Blue.
I have not posted since RTC days but I look in every day several times.
You comment about Celtic fans missing Rangers has compelled me to reply.
I gave up going to the games last year not because I miss Rangers who are in the process of Liquidation. Nor do I have any wish to see or play against Sevco trading as TRFC.
The reason I gave up going after 47 years ( Last 18 a Season book holder) is the that I no longer wish to give my hard earned money to the Football authorities who pretend that everything is back to normal and no cheating has gone on.
Until the TRFC fans man up and admit they are not the same entity and move on, there is no point. It’s just a sham.
It’s TRFC who miss Celtic and feel the need to be associated with a big team to keep up the pretence.
There will never again be an Old Firm, because the clue is in the phrase. You need to be old to qualify and being a couple of years old does not qualify in my book as being old.
There that feels better.
Cluster One,
Ah, but was the substitute legitimate? 😯
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
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Think its plain that a huge part of the Celtic support want the return of the Rangers rivalry.
Just one look at the empty seats around Celtic Park tells the story. For the rest of the SPL it is an opportunity for Celtic it means lots of meaningless home matches with no atmosphere, no excitement.
Football needs rivalry,it is still there,even in this blog, the evidence is plain for all to see.
After all there would be little interest in a Partick Thistle tax case?
TV wants it, Scottish football wants it, supporters want it, why, because it is great theater.
Something that is badly missing.
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RiB
You start off by referencing the Celtic support who (in your opinion) want the “rivalry”. But then go on to say “Scottish football wants it”. A rather sweeping generalization based on what ? Media cretins and pundits from Glasgow ?
My reason for posting is that I still have an interest in Scottish football even after nearly 30 years south of the border and with that in mind I think my views tend to be less partisan than some on here.
I continue to support my team , I have no connection with Glasgow or love for either Celtic or Rangers. I do loathe Rangers (I’m using the generic term here) and do so because of their fans past behavior and there current behavior. Their arrogance, their bigotry, their intolerance. Their ignorance of the facts and refusal to accept the facts surrounding the demise of their club , their attempt to pin the blame on anyone but the regime and SDM who actually brought this catastrophe about.
I haven’t been to Ibrox in nearly 40 years and I have no intention of ever going back – I won’t bore you with the details. In any case , what I and my family were subjected to that caused us to spurn the romance of football at Ibrox is but a drop I the ocean when I read of the experiences of Celtic fans at the hands of Rangers fans.
I don’t miss “Old Firm ” games. I don’t know of many fans (if any) of my background that do – or were ever that interested in these shameful displays of hatred other than to see watch some “car crash” TV with a few sendings off and some gratuitous player on player violence. Is this the same fixture that caused the footballing authorities (known also as ” The Friends of Rangers”) to ban end of season OF games because of Rangers fans behavior at a “title decider” ?
No , I don’t miss Rangers at all. I never will.
I do miss a competitive Scottish football – but that doesn’t mean simply having Rangers back in the top division. Rangers are a long way from ever being competitive with Celtic.
And before I get the criticism that “this isn’t Rangers any more, they died” ….that may be so but I would reply that , unfortunately this is Rangers, very much Rangers. They live on in the hearts and minds of their fans through THEIR hatred/bigotry/intolerance. It’s the same old Rangers all right and that’s why they are not that much missed. In my case , not missed at all.
Celtic supporters no longer get satisfaction on SPL.
They only turn up for the CL. Look at the spaces against the next two biggest draws in Scotland Hearts and Aberdeen. If Rangers return the match will sell itself.
By the way I hope you agree the misbehavior is not all from one side.As a young boy I had to hide my colours on a city bus and had bottles thrown at my supporters bus on a number of occasions.
Scum are scum no matter the colours.
That should not put off the real football supporter.
Smugas says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:53 am
Ah, but was the substitute legitimate?
Time will tell
Rhapsody, I’m sure you’re right that a lot of people, including a whole lot of Celtic fans, miss the OF games and that they had a unique atmosphere. I’ve no doubt that TV companies believed (and still do)that they offered great theatre. It’s a shame that so much of the atmosphere was fuelled by what was presented as religious difference. Whatever the differences related to, it certainly looked hateful. You look back with fondness to the good old days – refresh your memory of finals in 1909, 1980 and a boys game in 2013 for nostalgia. If those who attend and armchair viewers get their rocks off on this, there’s something wrong. It’s akin to rubber-necking car crashes or bear-baiting.
Even if the OF was securely rooted in genuine sporting competition, calling for its return for the ‘theatre’ when one of the participants chose to live so far beyond its means that it couldn’t pay excessive salaries to tax avoiders without stealing from the mug taxpayers is so blinkered it beggars belief. Open your eyes or leave your soul sold.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
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I never want to see any incarnation of Rangers at Celtic Park…..ever!
TV is killing the attendances at Celtic Park, the last game was an early evening KO live on coucil telly.
Most of our games are being shifted from 3 on a Saturday to lunchtime, or a Sunday, or midweek.
The last two fan surveys asked me “what would stop you renewing your Season Books?” My response was: Games moved from 3 on a Saturday to suit everyone except the paying customer (fans-me).
They want to cater for the armchair supporter………well they gained me and my faither as just that this year after many many moons of match going.
There are many like me who have to travel a distance to get to games, I now enjoy ‘supporting’ with a fine red I can now easily afford from my £1200 (2) season book saving.
Football knows how to really treat its customers with contempt, it looks like we are voting with our feet.
I was actually enjoying ‘the product’ without the bile Rangers brought to the table. It’s been great to watch the trophy’s (especially League cup) finding different homes, the national team is even on the up.
The game is only let down by the people who are supposed to be running the show. The latest incarnation of Rangers have won two leagues using financial doping, just like the first lot, yet the SFA do nothing.
I really hope Rangere (IL) run out of cash before the season ends.
blu says:
September 26, 2014 at 1:18 pm
Spot on!
Whilst I have deep misgivings about the role played by messers Lawwell and Riley in this mess, their prudent, living within its means approach at celtic, will actually hasten the levelling of the playing field, and, should lead to a more competitive league. It will take time, and now that the favoured two team model is broken, the authorities should be looking at the distribution of income, to match the new reality on the ground.
Tom Tom et al,
You’ve been caught out again!
Don’t feed the troll!!
It’s more like ‘Travesty in Blue’.
Wonder who it is this time?
Must be something ‘interesting’ coming up down Govan way.
Yet again, we have the whole of Scottish football defined by “the old firm” according to Rhapsody. His failure to see (and he is certainly not in a small minority here) that for millions of people, the OF are not the beginning and end of it all is staggering. Supporters of Dundee Utd, or Albion Rovers or Arbroath or QoS or whoever do not spend their time regretting the absence of the OF games. Until those who administrate and regulate the game in Scotland realise this, we’re doomed to relive this tedious concentration on two clubs about whom millions could not care less, but around which everything revolves.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 1:07 pm
“If Rangers return the match will sell itself.”
The match? Or the ‘occasion’
Haywire says:
September 26, 2014 at 1:52 pm
=============================
Haywire, if you’re right I expect that it’ll be from the same small group of IP addresses and will be picked up by mods. Otherwise, engage and respond as you see fit.
RiB
You may be correct about Celtic fans eager to see the return of “OF” rivalry. You may well have access to a bigger sample than I do in which to extrapolate your conclusions – but your conclusions are wildly at odds with my brand of DIY stats. Over the course of a month I probably speak to (low) hundreds of Celtic fans, and only 2 (two) confirm your conclusions. For the record, the two I mention are publicans who are losing 4 @ Celtic/Rangers matches live in the pub per year over the counter takings.
The vast majority of Celtic fans I speak to would be happy never to endure another Celtic/Rangers match – and in fact almost to a man they wouldn’t recognise a Celtic/TRFC match as being the same thing anyway.
Perhaps it is a bit indulgent on the part of Celtic fans, because the opportunity to rid ourselves of the “theatre” will only be fulfilled at great cost to Rangers fans. And if Scottish football is only sustainable with a four times per year injection of sectarian hatred, then it should be ashamed of itself. The truth is that the only beneficiaries of that sectarianism are Celtic, Rangers and the media – that is why these are the constituent parts of Scottish football who shout loudest for its return.
I think it was Hugh Keevins who said (sagely I am assured) that
“yes, the domestic violence surrounding OF games is appalling”
and
“yes, the levels of drunken violence and serious injury and deaths surrounding these matches is terrible …”
“… but we need these matches”
The irony (from a Celtic perspective) is that the dwindling crowd sizes at CP have less to do with a longing for the madness to return than a dissatisfaction amongst Celtic fans that their club have been complicit in attempting to ease TRFC into the RFC shoes. My whole family are in the latter category and have refused to attend games for the last two years.
To me it’s a ternary choice. We either;
a) welcome back this fixture and condone the elevated levels of street and domestic violence along with the hate school atmosphere;
b) endeavour to make sure the match never again takes place, or
c) someone at Ibrox finally shows some humility and regret for all the wrongdoing and the baggage that brought us to this place, allowing for a clean slate with a healthy rivalry not based on the accident of being born in a household where one religion or another is practiced.
I can confidently predict that if and when these games do return, my family and others will be lost to Scottish Football forever, and the standards of behaviour at the matches will plummet – even by their already shocking standards. I can also confidently predict that the “return” of TRFC will provide no stiffer competition to Celtic tan that which faces it at the moment – and probably even less for the time being. Another “fact” injected into the public domain by shoddy journalists which doesn’t bear much scrutiny is that it will be raining competition if and when TRFC get into the Premiership.
Leave out the troll comments folks. RiB is putting forward an argument in a reasonable manner. There is no harm in engaging with someone where opinions differ.
If we have a troll situation we’ll now soon enough – there’s no prizes for calling it first.
As long as we keep it clean, we’ll be fine 🙂
yourhavingalaugh says:
September 26, 2014 at 10:35 am
12 0 Rate This
Is Phil on vacation,or on garden leave
———-
He’s been covering the referendum events.
Big Pink says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm
And if Scottish football is only sustainable with a four times per year injection of sectarian hatred, then it should be ashamed of itself. The truth is that the only beneficiaries of that sectarianism are Celtic, Rangers and the media.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two simple sentences that sum up the problem perfectly.
No more needs to be said.
Move along now, nothing to see here, time to join the 21st Century. 🙂
Bawsman says: September 26, 2014 at 1:36 pm
TV is killing the attendances at Celtic Park, the last game was an early evening KO live on coucil telly.
==============================
TV is killing the attendances at every ground, not just Celtic Park.
What Celtic fans are seeing now is what was experienced by the fans of other clubs over a number of seasons.
The structure of the previous TV deal, whereby all Celtic and Rangers away games were covered live, actually benefited Celtic and Rangers by protecting their main income stream, i.e. their home gates.
It was the likes of St Johnstone, Motherwell, Kilmarnock etc. who all lost out by having their home games scheduled at early o’clock to meet the needs of TV, while the home games of Celtic and Rangers continued to be played at 3pm on a Saturday (the exceptions being the games between the two, the clinching of the league, or the unfurling of the league flag which were guaranteed sellouts anyway)
While the TV deal now forms a major income stream for the Premiership clubs, I still don’t believe that it in the best interests of the game.
I have no objection to games being covered live on TV, but I feel that it should be limited to games that are already sellouts. If there is a particular game that Sky or BT want to cover that is not a sellout then arrangements should be put in place to enable SKY/BT to buy up the spare tickets (and give them away if necessary).
To be perfectly honest, as a Dundee Utd supporter, would I be bothered by the TV money ultimately going because the OF is no more? We’re never going to hit the heights of the league win and European adventures of the 80s again as things stand. The warning that Scottish football will go the way of the Irish league elicits a response of “so what?” quite frankly. It’s still my team, and sometimes things are good, and sometimes they’re not. Does United’s position in the great firmament of European football mean much to me? Probably not. These days are gone. TV money and Bosman has changed the landscape forever. Perhaps a semi-pro United winning the top league in Scotland (a league populated by other semi-pro teams) would give me a great deal more satisfaction than trying too pretend that the general equality of the game across Europe that existed three decades ago will ever return. If the price of Scottish football living under the pretence that it will ever be at the same level financially as the big boys is the return to the old OF hegemony, then I know which outcome I want.
Big Pink says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm
…
I can confidently predict that if and when these games do return, my family and others will be lost to Scottish Football forever, and the standards of behaviour at the matches will plummet – even by their already shocking standards…
=====================================================
I think you are absolutely right BP on that score – and which the football authorities and MSM – and other senior clubs – seem to have totally misjudged / ignored.
And in a curious way, perhaps the Referendum has boosted peoples’ ideas of what is acceptable – and what is not – in a modern Scottish society.
If there is a TRFC/CFC game with expectant associated trouble, then I fully expect the SFA/SPFL will mishandle the situation totally – and thus drive away more paying punters in despair and frustration.
There is still a massive disconnect between the governing bodies and the paying fans – of all clubs, IMO.
Maybe the SFA/SPFL could be doing something about that just now, [& I am dismissing the SFA’s prior ‘Fans Survey’ with its predetermined and very restricted questions as not much more than a PR stunt.]
easyJambo says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:54 pm
11 0 i
Rate This
Bawsman says: September 26, 2014 at 1:36 pm
TV is killing the attendances at Celtic Park, the last game was an early evening KO live on coucil telly.
==============================
TV is killing the attendances at every ground, not just Celtic Park.
====================================
The poster I was responding to was basically stating that a sparse attendance at Celtic Park in a televised (midweek early KO) League Cup game against a team from a lower league was due to there being no Rangers in our world.
I simply catalogued a list of reasons why any form of Rangers is an insignificance to Celtic fans and our reasons for attending (or not) our stadium. I agree with you however, that TV is indeed killing the sport.
rhapsodyinblue says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:05 am
Think its plain that a huge part of the Celtic support want the return of the Rangers rivalry.
===================================
I disagree. Celtic fans from all walks of life I’ve spoken to do NOT have any desperate desire for this fixture to happen. Many have said they would feel different had the club and the support not acted as it has done, and shown some contrition for what’s happened. The bottom line is that tens of millions were deliberately withheld from creditors, much of it owed to the taxpayer of the UK. Despite that, and despite Rangers being liquidated, the new Rangers insist they are the same Rangers and the fans insist they are still the people. Who would really be desperate to have a rivalry with a club and support like that?
finchleyflyer says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:01 pm
15 0 Rate This
Yet again, we have the whole of Scottish football defined by “the old firm” according to Rhapsody. His failure to see (and he is certainly not in a small minority here) that for millions of people, the OF are not the beginning and end of it all is staggering. Supporters of Dundee Utd, or Albion Rovers or Arbroath or QoS or whoever do not spend their time regretting the absence of the OF games. Until those who administrate and regulate the game in Scotland realise this, we’re doomed to relive this tedious concentration on two clubs about whom millions could not care less, but around which everything revolves.
———
Agree with your sentiments finchley (great alias I haven’t seen for a while, btw) and the other posts expressing the same.
A show like SSB seems to attract callers who long for the return of THAT fixture, though. Mind you, the pundits to a man pine for this, the only match that really matters to them. They seem to imagine that if The Rangers get back to the top league all will be as if nothing ever happened — and apparently, real Rangers men are already queuing up with funds to guide them to pots of gold in the CL. Mindboggling.
Big Pink says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm
And if Scottish football is only sustainable with a four times per year injection of sectarian hatred, then it should be ashamed of itself. The truth is that the only beneficiaries of that sectarianism are Celtic, Rangers and the media.
Now that should be posted to Hugh Keevins 😀
Cluster One says:
September 26, 2014 at 4:55 pm
Big Pink says:
September 26, 2014 at 2:06 pm
And if Scottish football is only sustainable with a four times per year injection of sectarian hatred, then it should be ashamed of itself. The truth is that the only beneficiaries of that sectarianism are Celtic, Rangers and the media.
Now that should be posted to Hugh Keevins 😀
=======================================
Hugh would want nothing to do with us bampots. He prefers the higher class of debate experienced via the Daily Record hotline and the Radio Clyde phone in.
Tears of joy 12.56
That post should be framed and copied to every SSB pundit in order for the messenger to insert the frame where the sun don’t shine.
They do not want Rangers back, they want the sensation of strangers baiting each other over the airwaves, or in print or at games for them to earn a living from the promotion of hatred.
In fact make the frames rhombus shaped.
I guess RIB must be getting his/her information from the same reliable sources who advised that Craig Whyte was rich, Charles Green is a good guy and that Dave King really wants to invest in the club….
In all the time since this debacle began, I have only ever heard of a handful of Celtic fans saying they look forward to playing Rangers again and this was only because they look forward to a rout. It’s perhaps telling that they are NOT referred to as Old Firm matches by anyone but Rangers fans and a compliant Scottish media attempting to convince us it’s the same old horse. It’s not, it won’t ever be and eventually this will be recognised as it is only those same two decrepit organisations who believe it to be true. The vast majority of Celtic fans do not want anything to do with Tribute Rangers at all and would rather not attend games with them than contribute a single penny to bunch of lying cheats.
I will admit that I do sometimes miss Old Firm games for their tension and furious pace. However, there will NEVER be another Old Firm game and that’s a fact so get over it. I also miss several of my ex-girlfriends, for various reasons, but I sure don’t want them back either 😉 (I’m sure they still exist mind you!)
You are right there, as PT would have been afforded the same “don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out” as Airdrieonians, Third Lanark, Clydebank and Gretna got.
The reason there is such interest in the RTC is down to the incredible efforts of the authorities and media to keep an entity in the top league that the old support would adopt and support and allowing them to pretend it was the same entity. The RFC Brand could not be allowed to die in their eyes.
His failure to see (and he is certainly not in a small minority here) that for millions of people, the OF are not the beginning and end of it all is staggering.
1) Sorry, never said that nor do I think that.
I do loathe Rangers
2) Yes, I get that. Seems to be a common theme on here
That longing is tempered by the likelihood that for the foreseeable future TRFC are more likely to be humped by Celtic than to beat them
3) I think you are correct, that is football
I am one of those who believe Scotland is the best place to play our football, that money should be more evenly spread
4) I completely agree
I will admit that I do sometimes miss Old Firm games for their tension and furious pace.
5) Just what I was saying
You’ve been caught out again!
Don’t feed the troll!!
It’s more like ‘Travesty in Blue’.
Wonder who it is this time?
Must be something ‘interesting’ coming up down Govan way.
6) Not guilty, there is always something interesting down Govan Way, unfortunately not from our Board.
TV is killing the attendances at every ground, not just Celtic Park.
7) Definitely a factor, kick off times ridiculous, hate midday fixtures
It’s TRFC who miss Celtic and feel the need to be associated with a big team to keep up the pretence.
8)Petty point scoring if I may venture
I was actually enjoying ‘the product’ without the bile Rangers brought to the table
9) So you don’t hear bile around you, hard to believe that.
We all could do without the bile, believe me.
10) Well if comments are sincerely held and I’ve no reason to doubt they are the Celtic end could be empty.
The jury is out , come back to me if it happens.
Rhapsody in Blue,
I think you took a lot of points there and responded pretty reasonably. I have mainly enjoyed this forum and always found it informative, but the constant feeling from posters that Rangers and their fans are fairly disgusting is starting to put me off. To clarify, most posters here have been nothing but friendly to me and respectful of my views. But the overwhelming need to comment on the bigotry of rangers fans every time we are mentioned grates, and makes it difficult to be a participatory member of this community as a Rangers fan.
I still read every day, but I am getting tired.
This one’s for Ryan, I presume that you believe there is an actual large ‘silent majority’ of decent RFC fans like yourself. Do you think there is any realistic chance of them making their feelings known and having an influence on events at Ibrox?
My thoughts are that when Chris Graham and Craig Houston from SOS are perceived to be the aforesaid acceptable face of the ‘decent fans’ then you’ll have a hard time persuading supporters of all clubs on here that events of the last few years have not made things worse in terms of entrenched views at Ibrox.
RIB,
[..]
I shall therefore turn to the nominal topic of your contribution – Old Firm matches and how many folk miss/don’t miss them.
I am a Kilmarnock supporter. I was very pleased to be at Hampden with my daughter a couple of seasons ago to see Killie win the League Cup by beating Celtic. What should have been a very enjoyable occasion was somewhat spoiled by the five ‘gentlemen’ sitting in the row in front of us. Although wearing Killie scarves, etc., it was apparent from their lack of knowledge of the Kilmarnock team that they were but nominal supporters. I leave it to your imagination as to who they really were, but I’m pretty sure that they weren’t Queens Park supporters who had turned up on the wrong day. They ranged in age from 30 to 70, and most of the younger ones were shaven headed. I am no shrinking violet, but was appalled by the language and gestures at the Celtic fans which occurred whenever events on the field allowed it.
At half time, the eldest, who had had quite a bit to drink, hurt the woman in front of him when he stumbled and fell over her. When her husband complained, our champion had his fists raised before his companions managed to calm him down. He then ‘shook hands’ with me, but was disappointed by my response. I leave it to your imagination what they were like when Killie took the lead and then won the Cup.
I have no great sympathy for the other side of the Old Firm, but I stood in the queue for the train back to Central with a lot of their supporters, young and old, and did not feel at all threatened. Many observed that Killie deserved to win (but there was some discussion over a stonewall late penalty for Celtic which wasn’t given – possibly an honest mistake!)
I presume that the ‘gentlemen’ in question regarded the game as a sort of proxy Old Firm match. I leave it to your imagination what I think about such games, and whether I would be keen to see them back again, albeit with a New Contender from the south side.
Wrt Celtic fans missing the OF game…I guess we’ll just need to wait and see….however I won’t be heading to the nearest bookie to put money on either ground failing to sell out.
Having said this I appreciate that many Celtic (and Rangers fans) won’t look forward to that fixture for the non football stuff that we are all too familiar with.
Has the site changed its format or what ❓
The upcoming Ross County vs Aberdeen game was to be an opportunity for old friends from Aberdeenshire to meet up with friends from Caithness. I would have taken my son and daughter. We would have spent money travelling, as would my friends. We would have spent money eating and drinking as we journeyed, as would my friends. We would have all dined in Dingwall. We would have laughed. We would have reminisced. We would all have attended a top level Scottish football match and laughed or cried. We would have shared a dram or two and said our good-byes and headed home. A good day, all round. Regardless of the result, we would have experienced something, anything!
Unfortunately, the game has been moved to the Monday night, I presume for BT Sport or Sky, I don’t really care.
The trip is off for all concerned. I don’t have Sky or BT Sport so I will watch as goals are scored on Twitter. My son will play his Play Station. We won’t laugh and we probably won’t cry. He probably won’t even realise the game is on. I won’t meet up with my friends. We won’t spend any of our disposable income.
Though I do like football on tv, on this occasion, it just doesn’t feel right. I’m sure the rest of Scotland feels my pain much more often than I do, but for me, the opportunities are so limited that for this game to be sacrificed in this way, it just feels so wrong.
The damage to the economy is probably immeasurable. The damage to Scottish football is probably severe.
Nuclear Sheep says:
September 26, 2014 at 10:39 pm
That’s as great a post as I’ve read in months. I’m sure your sentiments will resound amongst many readers, well done for humanising what so often is translated purely to pounds and pence
Sympathies Ryan and RiB, I may not always agree with you but it’d be a rather pathetic TSFM if we were reduced to groupthink that excluded any ‘other’ view.
RyanGosling says:
September 26, 2014 at 8:51 pm
Rhapsody in Blue,
I think you took a lot of points there and responded pretty reasonably. I have mainly enjoyed this forum and always found it informative, but the constant feeling from posters that Rangers and their fans are fairly disgusting is starting to put me off. To clarify, most posters here have been nothing but friendly to me and respectful of my views. But the overwhelming need to comment on the bigotry of rangers fans every time we are mentioned grates, and makes it difficult to be a participatory member of this community as a Rangers fan.
I still read every day, but I am getting tired
======================================================
Ryan
Not as tired as I am of 46 years attending football matches and having to put up with this “rivalry” or whatever else the Glasgow media chooses to put upon it in order to avoid confronting it. And not as tired as I am of the hackneyed “Scotish football needs Rangers in the top division” as though it was a basic tenet of a successful Scottish football ethos.
In my experience people outside of the W of Scotland/Glasgow are sick to death of it.The sad part is IMO, the rest of Scottish football fans could talk till kingdom come about the matters that tire you so but nothing would change. I’ve got better things to do than come on here and criticise fans of any club but when RiB posts the blinkered thinking that Celtic/Scottish football misses/needs/wants Rangers in the top division then he should be prepared for what follows. Rangers are not missed by many fans of many clubs and the reasons for that may make for uncomfortable reading : Rangers and their fans can change that perception but actively chose not to.
It would be nice to think this could actually be put across in the media ie what Scottish football fans REALLY think. But we all know that doesn’t fit the narrative.
I don’t mean this as a personal attack or criticism of you. I am a lurker and read most of your posts and I hope you will continue contribute to TSFM. For my part, I’ll say no more.
Nuclear Sheep says: September 26, 2014 at 10:39 pm
…
The damage to the economy is probably immeasurable. The damage to Scottish football is probably severe.
===============
Thanks for sharing that insight NS, (and where have you been? 🙂 )
In the OF days I simply refused to take my family into Glasgow city centre during the day if they played at the weekend. Likewise, the better half and I just wouldn’t consider having a night out in Glasgow on the night of an OF game. Maybe an overreaction – maybe not. But just not worth the risk. Maybe a few Internet Bampots did the same?
If TRFC gets into the SPL will this mean reverting to this depressing scenario?
tearsofjoy says:
September 26, 2014 at 11:20 pm
‘..Rangers are not missed by many fans of many clubs and the reasons for that may make for uncomfortable reading.’
——–
Quite true.
But, I think, a more important truth is that , whatever may happen to TRFC/RIFC plc,Scottish Football Administration has been utterly discredited.
It has been seen to have been without any shred of belief in Sporting Integrity, lacking courage in the face of rabble-rousing carpet-baggers ( or, perhaps, only too happy to accommodate them willingly), and possibly even complicit in the most consistent cheating of the system that Scottish Football has ever seen.
As said many times before, a cheating club ( or a new club pretending to be the original cheating club) can be batted aside as very small beer, compared with a cheating Administration which, instead of upholding the rules designed by themselves to ensure fair sport, sabotages them out of fear, favour,or financial greed.
For as long as those responsible for the misleading of the LNS enquiry and the dreadful 5-way ‘secret’ agreement remain in office, the cancer will grow.
They quite simply are not to be trusted.
And the fear is, that having abused our trust once already, they may be prepared to do so again -if the new club does founder and sink.
In reply to RinB. I respect R in B’s take on this but from what I can see, he is well wide of the mark
I personally, and don’t know any Celtic who does, do not want a return of the OF games because.
1) There is no old firm. One club is two years of age, therefore, the term old cannot apply
2) As a spectacle, there is no doubt they could be exciting but it was built on hatred and nothing else.
3) The media want them as it does their circulation no harm at all.
4) I actually find them embarrassing now as they are viewed as tribal warfare.
5) One team was caught cheating so I do not want to say “you’re forgiven and every tenet of that cheating is forgiven.
I could go on but most Celtic fans I know and have spoken to, and I am one, do not ever want this back. George Square, after the referendum told us what the club at Ibrox are all about and a return of this hatred, I and many others can well do without..
Sorry but no can do. Stay dead please.
Nuclear Sheep says:
September 26, 2014 at 10:39 pm
17 0 Rate This
The upcoming Ross County vs Aberdeen game was to be an opportunity for old friends from Aberdeenshire to meet up with friends from Caithness. I would have taken my son and daughter. We would have spent money travelling, as would my friends. We would have spent money eating and drinking as we journeyed, as would my friends. We would have all dined in Dingwall. We would have laughed. We would have reminisced. We would all have attended a top level Scottish football match and laughed or cried. We would have shared a dram or two and said our good-byes and headed home. A good day, all round. Regardless of the result, we would have experienced something, anything!
——-
Hello NS. Seeing more and more once familiar names return with thoughtful input. Nice.
I wonder if there are figures outlining what a TV match actually gives in revenue? Is it a sliding scale depending on league position or a straight fee? The nuts and bolts of the BT / Sky money set against the factors you mention are hard to compare, of course, since there is no real estimate on losing a generation of fans. Some radical thinking no doubt needed.
I heard Archie McPherson once make a very strong case for NO tv football except a highlights package (think it was on an old OtB).
One of the most obvious things when watching these matches, and I see most, is the lack of fans. Someone made the sensible suggestion earlier that TV games should be cut price or offer a load of free tickets to schools/charities or whatever. A televised game really comes across as pretty dull when the only crowd sounds are like those of tourists in a cathedral.
What’s the answer?
I still read every day, but I am getting tired – Ryan Gosling
I know what you mean, Ryan
Example, the latest comment
‘the cancer will grow.’
Jeez, how do you compete with stuff like that?
Think I’ll be taking a wee holiday from here.
RyanGosling says to Rhapsody in Blue,
… I think you took a lot of points there and responded pretty reasonably.
…I have mainly enjoyed this forum and always found it informative
… but the constant feeling from posters that Rangers and their fans are fairly disgusting … the overwhelming need to comment on the bigotry of rangers fans every time we are mentioned grates
… and makes it difficult to be a participatory member of this community as a Rangers fan.
…I still read every day, but I am getting tired.
————————————————————-
Ryan well said.
We’re all a little tired.
Both sides of the argument are victims of the decisions made before during and after the 5 way agreement.
The New Rangers under Charlie could have kept the good bits of history and lost the bad bits and become a community club and a power for good in the game.
But he was in it for what he and his gang of pals could stuff into their carpetbags and knew the economic power of the bogit word and world.
The selling of the club to spivs disenfranchised decent Rangers supporters and lurched the club to the right.
And your club is still in the wrong hands and in the wrong place in a new confident Scotland.
A Scotland that has truly changed.
Where the old bogitedness has no place in politics or football.
But there are dinosaurs.
The guys proudly wearing their blue strips as a badge of honour in George Square, the colourful Saturday marchers in Edinburgh, most of the football writers who rely on filling pages or airwaves with “old firm” bitterness, gossip and opinions.
As a non old firm fan I too have long been tired.
Tired of paying real pound notes in a league where we know the two possible winners before it starts.
Tired of the media crap about two teams.
Tired of the chants and bile that comes from two economic models that encourage a particular point of difference as a consumer recruiting strategy.
That’s why TSFM exists.
Its not always pleasant for Rangers fans but thats because most people want to have a Rangers sans baggage and most of us don’t believe that will be the case.
Well said Finloch
Nuclear Sheep …….Brilliant simple post .Thats what makes football great , going with your family/mates in anticipation of a good game , maybe a wee bit of socializing after and dissecting your teams performance and the referees 🙂 …dead simple. But the high heid yins have changed all that and more and more people are switching off ……who wants to watch a game on a monday or a wednesday most people are working. Football should be Saturday 3 oclock . personally I would tell SKY to p##s off . A good quality highlights package as mentioned by Danish aired at 9 oclock on a saturday night ( not late on a sunday when most people are heading to bed for Monday morning work start ). Who knows maybe it will get fashionable to go to the footie again on a saturday afternoon. Let Scottish football find its natural level, If its on par with Norway , Denmark , Sweden , Ireland so be it. The main thing is the SFA have to go as there is absoloutely no trust between them and us…..just my sleepy saturday morning thoughts !!
Some people are tired of same old comments,not the fact that the comments are truthful oh no, well their are also the people that are SICK and TIRED, the emergency services, the A and E staff, the court’s the ordinary punter that cannot walk their own streets and no doubt more, these good folk wish they where just tired also
Ticketus and Whyte back in court on Monday.
http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/court-lists/list-chancery-judges
COURT 30
Before MR JUSTICE ARNOLD
Monday, 29 September 2014
At half past 10
INTERIM HEARINGS LIST
HC12F03282 Ticketus LLP & anr v Whyte & ors