Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?

ByAndrew Smith

Les Says It is Time to Ask The Audience?

Saying the last couple of weeks has been colourful for Scottish Football would be an understatement.

We are now in a position where we have a Taskforce co-chaired by the heads of two clubs to look at what needs to be done in the Covid 19 landscape right now and into whatever future unfolds.

Representatives of the clubs first convened last Monday and Graham Tatters, Elgin City chairman told BBC Saturday Sportsound that the 2nd division has already agreed unanimously to back 3 leagues of 14 as their preferred option.

On the same show Iain McMenemy, Chairman of Stenhousemuir effectively told us among other things that nothing in Scottish Football is ever easy, and mentioned that he believed the fans should be involved in any process.

Around the same time a very welcome conversation was underway between Les Gray, Taskforce co-chair and Paul Goodwin of the SFSA with Les asking for and welcoming fan input.

Dave Allen Called Our Future Years Ago

His oft quoted “I wouldn’t be starting from here joke” is a remarkable insight into where we find ourselves.
Our game is on the cusp of internecine war following the confusing combination of events we’ve all see playing out.

The hastily convened Taskforce has co-chairs who have also been quoted in the MSM as having different agendas, one for an immediate solution and one for a long-term plan.
Nothing wrong with that, in fact brilliant, we need both because they are interrelated.
Collectively we have to ask not just how do we minimise the economic and social impacts of the pandemic but also how do we start to shape our game for a better future?

Both these needs are right nows and both are the remit of the current Taskforce.

Now is the Time to Circle Our Wagons

This unique, open-ended, revenue-winter hit our clubs unexpectedly and overnight.
It is already brutal and will get worse with no current exit plan and no future certainties.
We know Dave Cormack’s Aberdeen is currently burning £1M per month.
No club has Covid immunity and a world of salary reductions, deferrals furloughed staff, little in the coffers and no exit strategy or road map out is a stark reality.
It’s hard to imagine that footballers have become liabilities rather than assets in a blink of an eye.
But it’s not hard to foresee that the financial stress on our clubs will see casualties.
Never before have we needed inter and intra-club teamwork for the common good.
But not in Scottish Football where an internecine spat is about to flare big time.

Civil War Breaking Out?

The record will show the recent SPFL Good Friday vote got an 80% plus backing vote from the clubs but in reality became a farce as Dundee eventually changed their “casting” vote.
This was paralleled by the “whistleblower” outburst by Rangers interim chairman Douglas Park demanding immediate suspension of Neil Doncaster and Rod McKenzie and an independent inquiry that sort of happened but not to the satisfaction of some.
One week later it rages on in the media with words today like “damning evidence, serious concerns, lack of fair play, coercing and bullying” being the vocabulary fed to the MSM to share with their audiences.

It seems some clubs have become unhappy with how our game is run and want to do something about it, so welcome to our world guys, – us fans have been saying that for a long time.
Our game needs big change but it won’t happen overnight and a pandemic crisis is maybe not the best timing for internecine strife.

Closing Down 2019 – 2020

This season is already ended for all Scottish clubs outside the Premiership.
UEFA didn’t do much to help and could have been more proactive in stopping inter club squabbling but plus ca change.
Most football people I have spoken to (with their self-interest hats off) were not totally happy with the implications of closing the season early and pro rata-ing points to decide champions but pragmatically accept it is the best answer or the least worst solution.
Asked about teams being relegated while having a bona-fide chance of fighting back there is less support and indeed genuine heartfelt pushback.

Some more enlightened leagues like the Lowland League who took the decision to avoid further damage on some of their members at this time through a no relegation policy and a wait and see what’s best are seen as wiser.

What Needs To Be Done Today?

We all know that out of the Budge/Gray Taskforce there will be a few options put on the table.
There is always the status quo of 4 leagues 12, 10, 10, 10.
A 14, 14, 14, setup was discussed and voted on by the current second division clubs last Friday.
Our own similar suggestion published on your SFM was 14, 14 and a bottom league of 16 to keep the integrity of the pyramid.

Two weeks on, a more pragmatic option and one to be considered by all might be to agree no relegation for now and to wait until more is known over the next crucial weeks.
We have time on our hands and no need to rush.
Why not take our lead from the sages at the Lowland League?

As a fan what do you think?

Should we plan for an interim period?
Should it be status quo?
Do we apply parameters (like no relegation) but accept that any other plan has to be kept flexible till more is known and agreed?

Your insights and views are welcome by Ms. Budge, Mr. Gray and their team either on this forum where I’ll read and collate them or if you prefer sent to me at
andrew@scottishfsa.org

What Needs To Be Done for Our Tomorrows?

We live in the real world and that means money is and always will be the prime driver and starting point.
Money is entwined with self-interest, status, power, politics and sometimes greed.

A given is every club will always want more and that is the easiest of several elephants in any room when looking at change to impact positively on the future of our game as a whole.

But maybe, just maybe now is different.
Post Covid many clubs will be on their knees financially and it will be a different world.

Les Gray’s Million Pounds Question For all Fans

No surprise it’s not an easy one
If you were charged with helping to create a sustainable and healthy future for Scottish Football is what would you do?

How would you advise Les, Ann and their Taskforce team about the right moves to make?

Once again insights welcome on SFM or to
andrew@scottishfsa.org

As a starter for 10 some stuff that has come up in previous SFSA fan surveys about our game (in alphabetical order) includes –
Better Communication, Bigger Leagues, Community Involvement, Council Telly live games, Gate Sharing, Grass Roots Investment, Fairness, Family Friendly, Fewer clubs, Integrity, Kids Free, Leadership, Less leagues, No Bigotry, Openness, Outside expertise, Same rules for all, Schools Football, Simplicity, Standing Sections, Summer Football, TV Kick-off times, Regional Lower Leagues, Reserve League, Strict Liability, Transparency, Wholesome Sponsors etc.

The list is not exhaustive. Please feel free to add any others.
Some will be contradictory, some nice to haves but the crucial thing to do is to find the smartest moves and build on them.

We’re responding to Les and Ann in good faith

Never before have we the fans been asked in such an open way.

Collectively we have a short-term end of season issue and a need to set up our game for what comes next which might include an interim period.

The background to any responses you offer is uncertainty exacerbated by growing internecine chaos and increasing vitriol.

I’ll end with some wise and hopeful words by a Taskforce Co- chair

Without openness, transparency and pragmatism we will simply keep making the same mistakes.

Ann Budge

About the author

Andrew Smith subscriber

708 Comments so far

macfurglyPosted on1:10 pm - Apr 30, 2020


I might also say that I have wanted to see the back of Doncaster and McKenzie since 2012 in the case of the former and subsequently for the latter. I take EJ's point made earlier about football fans wanting rid of the administrators. With regard to the current mess, I doubt if Doncaster and McKenzies's modus operandum has changed either, so I can understand what appear to be disgruntled mutterings from other clubs. As things stand, I am consigned in lockdown to sitting back and, hopefully, watching the dog mortally wounding the hand that bred it, just as the dagger is plunged into the Hound's heart.

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roddybhoyPosted on1:12 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Rangers should put up or shut up . The SFA should step in with a " bringing the game into disrepute" charge. This would not be tolerated in any other football association , Once again showing up the SFAs lack of ability, intelligence, cowardice ( insert your own adjective)  to run our game. If Rangers truly had damning evidence it would have been released through ttheir pals in print media and their friends at the BBC long long ago .  The SPFL have been too generous to them . They should have told them you have 48 hrs to produce your so called evidence if none is forth coming then Bye Bye .

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Corrupt officialPosted on1:14 pm - Apr 30, 2020


reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 08:51 4 4 

     Corrupt Official I wonder if your username allied to your obviously considered opinions suggest where this all might be heading towards. Is it co-incidence that Doncaster was at the SPL when you first used it on here? angry (disclaimer: the above is a joke)

========================

  I didn't have Doncaster particularly in mind, but it is Campbell Ogilvie's initials. Now there is a crook if ever I saw one. We have all observed how they handle "Inquiries", and that is why I consider that if Sevco have evidence of unlawful action it must be a police matter. 

    If nothing unlawful took place, it's a non-runner. It's only right the requisitioners should be made to cough under such circumstances…..Along with damages. 

    However as I stated previously, there is no evidence of any evidence. Until there is, it's only paper-talk and gumbumping with dubious motivations……Punishable motivations.  

    

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gerrybhoy67Posted on1:20 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Just a thought as another payday is upon us – do any of our more learned contributors know if sevco would qualify for one of the Government backed loans that are available to companies suffering hardship during the lockdown? 

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Ex LudoPosted on1:20 pm - Apr 30, 2020


https://twitter.com/thetributeact/status/1255651788499238912?s=21

Some thoughts from a Celtic facing twitter account (if that’s still ok on here?)

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roddybhoyPosted on1:29 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Macfurgly @13.10

Im with you regarding Doncaster . Not at the moment though , all clubs  need to go into survival mode .I would dearly love after this is all over , level heads sit round a great big table and put in place a competent SPFL and SFA fit for the purpose of a modern game without all the baggage that the SFA particularly carry. It cannot be filled with people who turn a blind eye to a certain clubs wrong doings .And it must have a proper rule book, not a rule book drafted by highly paid lawyers allowing for an "out" if the authorities dont feel like applying the rules….. A boy can dream enlightened

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easyJamboPosted on1:32 pm - Apr 30, 2020


The SPFL has quietly made the amendments to their Rules and Regulations in accordance with what  the 42 clubs voted on in the written resolution (I’m not aware of having read the full resolution).

https://spfl.co.uk/pages/rules-and-regulations

The changes relating to the end of the season can be found in paragraphs C7a (p31-32), C53 (p44-49) and Appendix 3 (p116-118).

I had understood that the decision and means to end the season only applied to tiers 2-4 of the pyramid, and that it was still open for the SPFL Board to end the premiership season as they saw fit, depending on the prevailing circumstances at a later point in time.

If I’ve understood the rule changes correctly, the SPFL Board has left themselves with only the binary choice of ending the Premiership by playing the season to a conclusion, or ending the season early and applying exactly the same criteria as were applied to the other tiers.

It probably won’t make any difference to the final determination, but I hadn’t appreciated that the SPFL Board had limited the future options available to them. 

Separately, decisions on who will participate in next season’s UEFA competitions also appear to have been agreed with the SFA, based on league positions only, with no consideration being given to concluding the Scottish Cup.   

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John ClarkPosted on1:51 pm - Apr 30, 2020


easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 13:32

'….The SPFL has quietly made the amendments to their Rules and Regulations'

'"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

"Quietly is the word", eJ.

Last night I was looking up what the rules were in relation to gate-sharing in league games ( a propos the posts about 'more equitable 'distribution) and I noticed the new rules you mention. I went straight back to the 'News' bit of the SPFL website, and found not a cheep!

What is it with folk who have websites that are open to the public with headings like 'latest news' but who do not post the  'latest news'? 

Self -defeating in terms of PR and openness!

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Corrupt officialPosted on1:52 pm - Apr 30, 2020


gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 13:20

       Just a thought as another payday is upon us – do any of our more learned contributors know if sevco would qualify for one of the Government backed loans that are available to companies suffering hardship during the lockdown?

==================================

    I believe staff have been furloughed, and players and management have accepted a 3 month wage deferral, with conditions unknown attached.

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paddy malarkeyPosted on2:25 pm - Apr 30, 2020


reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 09:13

To quote John Mc Enroe , " You cannot be serious ! " . 

In my opinion , only one of the top two clubs is reliant on the other .

How are you defining provincial ? Partick Thistle are hardly a provincial club – OTIG . Outwith the Capital conurbation ? Outwith any of our seven cities ? Diddy clubs ?

The clubs outside the top two will get by  , especially if we cut out the money wasted on marquee international transfers mail. Most find a way of living within their means , the others die .

The governing bodies are stuck with them all , whether they need them or not . If either or both of the big two were to leave , the stature and prestige of the leagues would greatly diminish , along with income and support , and there would be a new landscape with the number of clubs greatly reduced .  I dare say that there have been papers prepared that envisage football being played in Scotland with far fewer clubs , so the authorities would have a head start . It may even be that that the big two are too high maintenance for a country with our population with a declining interest in football as a spectator sport . 

Unfortunately , a large number of supporters of the premier club and  its revenant sidekick  hold  views similar to yours  . Take out the big two and you get a diminished product and probably a long, slow lingering death . Take out the other forty clubs and there is no product . The only way to keep it all together is to find a system that acknowledges that all clubs have needs and aspirations ,and that provides an equitable , not perfect , solution . I honestly fear , though , that football as we knew it has changed permanently because of the virus , and the immediate future may not be too rosy . 

If the authorities need help to envisage football played with supporters observing social distancing , a couple of pictures of the Jackie Husband for our most recent games might be of help .

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Ex LudoPosted on2:26 pm - Apr 30, 2020


https://twitter.com/lequipe/status/1255816737246687232?s=21

Ooh la la.

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gerrybhoy67Posted on2:45 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Thanks Cluster One I was aware of the furlough wages claim but I think there are loans available of up to 25% of the company turnover which would provide approximately 8 to 10 million pounds 

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theredpillPosted on3:09 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Best Tweet of the day for me with  regards Sevco Tantram.

pat kelly

@patkelly19

·

1h

Those accustomed to privilege may feel that equality is oppression

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Corrupt officialPosted on3:14 pm - Apr 30, 2020


gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 14:45

  . I assume you mean some sort of government loan?. I can say Sevco will not be offered a credit line from a bank,…any bank,  and all available assets are already securitised.   It's highly doubtful Sevco would pass any form of means tests applied, and I don't think they can do business on a handshake anymore.  Current legal wrangles point to the fact that even contractual business is problematic.  Other than that Gerry, I can't be more definitive, but the weather report made no mention of Hell freezing over any time soon.   

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gerrybhoy67Posted on3:19 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Thanks Cluster One I was just thinking it may have been an escape route mail

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HirsutePursuitPosted on3:24 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Companies with a turnover in excess of £45m can apply for commercial loans of up to £25m through the government loan guarantee scheme.

The ten banks taking part in this scheme are: 

Bank of Scotland, Barclays, Clydesdale Bank & Yorkshire Bank, Danske Bank, HSBC, Lloyds Bank, NatWest, Santander, RBS and Ulster Bank.

The good news for the Ibrox club is that its last audited accounts show revenue of £53m.

However, there must be a serious question over whether or not RIFC/TRFC can, with its recent poor record of corporate governance, persuade one of them to take them on as a client.

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HirsutePursuitPosted on3:41 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Just to add to my last comment…

A few days ago the government increased (from 80% to 100%) its guarantee on the loan scheme for small businesses.

For a business the size of RIFC/TRFC, the guarantee remains at 80%. Meaning, of course, that 20% of any loan advanced, would be at the sole risk of the lender.

What bank would be prepared to risk up to £5m that such a loan might be written off through an insolvency event – either now or over the next few years?

Does the Ibrox club have a history of generating profits (in 'normal' times) that could be used to repay such a loan?

Perhaps it could persuade the lender to convert its 'investment' to equity! mail

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wottpiPosted on4:03 pm - Apr 30, 2020


easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 13:32

So EJ if what you say is true then am I correct in saying that, if the winning the Scottish Cup no longer counts to the fourth Euro slot, in the likely event of Celtic being awarded the Premiership, Aberdeen will be granted entry to Europe and Hibs will be added to the teams unable to define their own destiny on the field of play.

Hearts are then on course to suffer a double whammy of relegation and being unable to potentially gain a Euro slot on the field of play.

Once again no sight of any apologies or recognition by the footballing authorities that at least two of the four semi-finalists are being hard done by regardless of whether the cup is played out or not.

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easyJamboPosted on4:37 pm - Apr 30, 2020


wottpi 30th April 2020 at 16:03

========================

The UEFA place granted to the cup winners (if they have not also qualified for the CL), currently gives them Scotland’s second ranking place, meaning that they would start in EL Qualifying Round 2, rather than EL QR 1 in next season’s competition (subject to UEFA not moving the goalposts).

As things stand, Celtic will start in CL QR1, Rangers gains by starting in EL QR2 and Motherwell and Aberdeen will start in EL QR1. Aberdeen gains by having an EL place confirmed but misses out on the chance of starting a round later, while Hibs and Hearts miss out on the chance of participating at all. 

Perhaps the SFA will compensate Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts for the missed or lessened opportunities.

Nah, just scrub that last remark. It isn’t going to happen.

What might be a fair question to those who have expressed a desire to complete the season, if at all possible, by the end of July. If there was just a one or two week window, i.e. not enough to complete the league programme, then should the cup semi finals and finals be played instead?

I know that won’t happen either.

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redlichtiePosted on4:50 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Ex Ludo 30th April 2020 at 13:20

https://twitter.com/thetributeact/status/1255651788499238912?s=21

Some thoughts from a Celtic facing twitter account (if that’s still ok on here?)

=========================================

I pointed this wording ("entitled" rather than "shall") and the potential consequences out at the time – the word chancers came to mind.

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.

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bordersdonPosted on5:27 pm - Apr 30, 2020


easyjambo 16.37

——————————————

There has been a silence regarding what might happen re the cup. Presumably this is a matter for the SFA? Seems to me 3 games should not be too difficult to manage.

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al62Posted on5:29 pm - Apr 30, 2020


This is brilliant from Forbes. 'That it makes them look silly to everyone else doesn’t really matter so long as Rangers fans keep buying season tickets and merchandise.' Full article: 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikemeehallwood/2020/04/30/scottish-footballs-covid-19-soap-opera-continues-as-rangers-demand-corruption-investigation-but-refuse-to-produce-evidence-of-spfl-wrongdoing/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

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Ex LudoPosted on5:30 pm - Apr 30, 2020


https://twitter.com/rpmcomo/status/1255867507442843649?s=21

And Brexit hasn’t gone away you know! 

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reasonablechapPosted on5:33 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Jingso

Currently there is no ‘evidence’ of wrong-doing in the public domain: what there are, however, are airy-fairy, non-specific allegations about certain individuals (apparently acting singularly & in concert – oops!) which require to be substantiated.

Once the allegations are made public & proved to have substance, then they become evidence. Until then, it’s simply gossip & handy for filling column inches at this difficult time.

Frankly, I find it incredible that any sporting organisation would allow its board-members to be traduced by an active member-club in the way the SPFL board currently is by TRFC’s innuendo.

————————————–

 

I didn't say the evidence was yet in the public domain.

The evidence isn't gossip or rumour. A member club of the SPFL has stated that they possess evidence and intend to distribute it to all the other 41 clubs well in advance of the GM.

Unless the meeting was called off prior o the evidence being presented, the more important question of what is it, will be coming along soon.

 

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upthehoopsPosted on5:48 pm - Apr 30, 2020


bordersdon 30th April 2020 at 17:27

There has been a silence regarding what might happen re the cup. Presumably this is a matter for the SFA? Seems to me 3 games should not be too difficult to manage.

=====================

All noises seemed to indicate the semi-finals and final being the curtain raiser to the new season, which of course right now would hinge on a number of factors if that was to be the case. 

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reasonablechapPosted on6:07 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Hirsute Pursuit

It seems, from any calm, sensible, dispassionate view of the current situation, that TRFC are doing no more than desperately rabble rousing to the hard of thinking.

In the past 8 years – in fact even prior to its official inception – various false claims of injustice of one sort or another have been used as marketing devices to rally the raging hordes. Paradoxically, coping with reality appears to be much more problematic than creating mayhem for itself and everyone around it.

This rampaging framing of its own preferred existence has worked well for the insecure child-club in the past. Why, when reality is currently so difficult, would we expect the sale of season tickets not to be accompanied by a frenzy of paranoid false accusations.

We can watch and be witnesses to its madness. We would all do well not to be consumed by it.

 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

A dispassionate view of the current situation wouldn’t have chosen some of the language used above and I still say, as per the post to which your post replied to, that it is too early to state “false” without suitable qualification.

That said, I can certainly understand the scepticism.

What reasons may make this time different  ?

  • New man in charge (Douglas Park) who has very much put his credibility on the line.
  • More business like approach (except for tone of initial statement)
  • If the evidence is basically a damp squib or worse. The club would risk a high level of mainstream ridicule and censure. This would leave open scars.
  • I really doubt that such a damp squib would be a good marketing tool at this point in time. My own take is it very much go the opposite way because if the evidence is inconsequential, there will be little to no prospect of taking the matter any further.

 However, if the clubs were to vote against the resolution despite of compelling evidence being produced. Then yes, it would be used as a marketing tool.

I’ll stop there regards talking about the evidence until we know what it is.

 

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gunnerbPosted on6:39 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Wow just wow.

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bordersdonPosted on6:44 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HP

However, if the clubs were to vote against the resolution despite of compelling evidence being produced. Then yes, it would be used as a marketing tool.

———————————————————————-

Perception is everything in such matters. What might seem inconsequential to others will almost certainly be "compelling" to the WATP crowd?

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StevieBCPosted on6:47 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Yet another staggering quote: this gem extracted From The Sun today;

“The SPFL had appointed Deloitte for an internal inquiry and surprise, surprise there was no wrongdoing.

If they are going to have an inquiry it needs to be an independent one.

It should happen because it is as if they have something to hide.”

=========

This quote was no doubt said with a straight face – and is attributed to none other than the ex-cheeky chappie himself:
Alistair “Who are these people?!” McCoist!

Mibbees it’s just me?

Was I living in a parallel universe in 2012?

I think I should be told… cheeky

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HirsutePursuitPosted on6:57 pm - Apr 30, 2020


reasonablechap
30th April 2020 at 18:07

…………….

Let me make a couple of fairly obvious predictions.

When the much anticipated dossier is released, there will be a great gnashing of teeth from a very vocal minority.  Alongside the usual suspects from the SMSM, they will claim that the ‘evidence’ within proves, beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the vote to finalise positions was defective. It will point to the nefarious forces at work to the detriment of Rangers[sic] and the benefit of its ‘Old Firm’ rival Celtic.

The provenance of the specific allegations won’t really matter. The logic or accuracy of what is claimed will be lost to the idea that the club is defending itself and it’s supporters from the dark ‘hidden forces’ at work.

The other clubs will look at what has been presented, collectively shrug their shoulders, decide that it should go no further and the resolution will be lost by a very large majority.  The perceived sense of injustice and outrage from Ibrox will be off the scale.

Meantime, season tickets will go on sale at Ibrox. indecision

Have I missed anything? 

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nawlitePosted on7:29 pm - Apr 30, 2020


May I ask, when did Reasonable Chap start posting? Not a name I recall seeing until very recently.

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on7:40 pm - Apr 30, 2020


‘reasonablechap 30th April 2020 at 17:33

I didn’t say the evidence was yet in the public domain.

The evidence isn’t gossip or rumour. A member club of the SPFL has stated that they possess evidence and intend to distribute it to all the other 41 clubs well in advance of the GM.

Unless the meeting was called off prior o the evidence being presented, the more important question of what is it, will be coming along soon.’

##############################

I’ll accept that I could have worded my post of 1129hrs in a slightly better way.

However, currently the only people who say that they have ‘evidence’ is a party whose position is one of blatant self-interest. If this ‘evidence’ is so damning, they should present it immediately: heck, the people they allege are corrupt are still in post & still making decisions. Until such time as the ‘evidence’ is examined by a reputable third-party (who would probably be the policewoman of the Scottish game, the SFA Compliance Officer, but that likely wouldn’t be acceptable to TRFC, would it?) & found to have standing it’s just an unsubstantiated allegation. As others have written, TRFC really need to ‘put up or shut up’.

You say TRFC’s ‘evidence’ isn’t ‘gossip or rumour’. How can you decide that without knowing what the ‘evidence’ is? Do you know what this much-vaunted ‘evidence’ is? Are you simply accepting the (RRM) word of Robertson & Park.

 

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Jingso.JimsiePosted on7:44 pm - Apr 30, 2020


nawlite 30th April 2020 @ 19:29:

I think he's an old steer getting a new lease of life on a different turn-pike

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reasonablechapPosted on7:54 pm - Apr 30, 2020


borderson

Perception is everything in such matters. What might seem inconsequential to others will almost certainly be "compelling" to the WATP crowd?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Perception amongst all fans will be through tribal filters, of course ! That goes for both sides.

The SPFL will of course have their reaction ready (various degrees of dismissal/deniel).

 

However, what matters is objective legal opinion. If considered a damp squib then the Rangers support won't be happy with their own club, believe me. If people think at this juncture and in these particular set of circumstances that such a siege mentality will give desired results, they are wrong.

My personal guess at this stage is that the vote will be lost, that the evidence will be compelling enough to take to court and that there will be a reasonable prospect of success. SPFL offical(s) will resign/move-on prior to any action.

Now the prediction is out broken heart, I really am going to stop talking abot the dossier until we have it to hand.

Good night

 

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nawlitePosted on7:55 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Mmm, that's where my mind is going too JJ.

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John ClarkPosted on8:15 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 15:24

I’ve had a wee look at 

https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-scheme-cbils-2/for-businesses-and-advisors/
Especially
WHO IS ELIGIBLE

 Your business must:

  • Be UK-based in its business activity
  • Have an annual turnover of no more than £45 million
  • Have a borrowing proposal which the lender would consider viable, were it not for the current pandemic
  • Self-certify that it has been adversely impacted by the coronavirus (COVID-19)
  • Not have been classed as a “business in difficulty” on 31 December 2019, if applying to borrow  to borrow £30,000 or more                      
  • Would TRFC qualify?
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Aurellio ZenPosted on8:21 pm - Apr 30, 2020


I must say that any reasonable person would have deduced that we were being steered in a particular direction early on in this recent flood of interventions. 

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easyJamboPosted on8:22 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Steven Gerrard has now written a message to fans   ………… 

https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/a-message-from-steven-gerrard/

……. complete with the obligatory sales pitch for Season Tickets

"This current crisis has created unprecedented challenges. Players and senior staff have shown their loyalty to our club in recent weeks, and now we want to reward you for your loyalty to us. I am therefore delighted we have frozen the price of season tickets and have extended the deadline for applications."

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bordersdonPosted on8:27 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Reasonablechap

I’ll stop there regards talking about the evidence until we know what it is.

————————————————————————

Very wise, and reasonable.

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HomunculusPosted on8:29 pm - Apr 30, 2020


The full thing is awesome EJ

What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read. 

 

Thursday, 30 April 2020, 20:00

by Steven Gerrard

THANK you for your incredible backing in season 2019/20 so far. Your loyalty will never be taken for granted and we are desperate to reward you for that loyalty.

These times are unlike any we have witnessed before. The UK faces challenges never experienced in our generation, certainly since the Second World War.

Our city of Glasgow is a proper football city, and Rangers are a proper football club. I grew up in a resilient city. I played football in a resilient city. I am now proud to manage in a resilient city.

Football makes a city, Rangers makes Glasgow.

I know nothing but football clubs who have faced down periods of incredible difficulty, but like our cities, because of your support, we will come through again, stronger than before.

That is what makes us who we are. We fight back to be even stronger when times are hard. Rangers gives us all something to rally around – that is why I am here.

I have experienced many cauldron-like atmospheres. Ibrox is a proper football stadium and your support makes all the difference.

I need only take myself back to our Europa League win over Braga. Our players delivered on that night, but it was your backing which drove them on from 2-0 down. That is proper football.

There are few grounds in world football capable of doing that. Ibrox is very much one of them and we need that backing as Rangers is nothing without you. It really is one special place and I am absolutely sure that you, just the same as I, cannot wait to be back there.

This current crisis has created unprecedented challenges. Players and senior staff have shown their loyalty to our club in recent weeks, and now we want to reward you for your loyalty to us. I am therefore delighted we have frozen the price of season tickets and have extended the deadline for applications.

There are more chapters to be written in our story. We can only do that together.

We will be ready for whatever challenges come our way in season 2020/21, whenever that begins.

We need you to be ready too.

Steven Gerrard

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redlichtiePosted on8:34 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 15:24

I’ve had a wee look at 

https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-scheme-cbils-2/for-businesses-and-advisors/
Especially
WHO IS ELIGIBLE

 Your business must:

  • Be UK-based in its business activity
  • Have an annual turnover of no more than £45 million
  • Have a borrowing proposal which the lender would consider viable, were it not for the current pandemic
  • Self-certify that it has been adversely impacted by the coronavirus (COVID-19)
  • Not have been classed as a “business in difficulty” on 31 December 2019, if applying to borrow  to borrow £30,000 or more                      
  • Would TRFC qualify
  • =========================

JC/HP, I have been monitoring the various schemes for business reasons but also with an eye on how an organisation without access to lending facilities, a loss last year of £11m and this statement in the accounts might fare in any application :

“The Board acknowledge that the uncertainty over the level of additional funds that will be required and a lack of a binding debt facility indicate that a material uncertainty exists which may cast doubt over the Group’s ability to continue as a going concern and therefore its ability to realise its assets and discharge its liabilities in the normal course of business.”

In such an organisation’s position it is not a loan application that I would feel optimistic about submitting….

Scottish Football needs a strong balance sheet.

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Corrupt officialPosted on8:40 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 18:57

Have I missed anything?

============

    Just the disrepute charges HP….It’s hard to see that they can reject the requisition without applying the charges…..It will come back to bite them if they don’t bring closure. Otherwise I think your crystal ball is twinkling brightly. Nial might disagree though. 
ps. Donald Findlay is on @BBCScotNine tonight for those who use their services.

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HomunculusPosted on8:47 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Sorry if I have missed it.

Has anyone seen the resolution which is being put to the SPFL members at the EGM. 

Also, will they have 28 days post the meeting to support it, on the basis that if they don't they simply need to do nothing and if it does not reach 75% it will fail. 

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upthehoopsPosted on8:58 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Jingso.Jimsie 30th April 2020 at 19:44

I'll second that JJ.

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HirsutePursuitPosted on9:06 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Homunculus
30th April 2020 at 20:47
 0 0 Rate This
…….

28 days apply to written resolutions only.

Assuming that the requisitioners have submitted a valid resolution, it will be decided on the day.

I'm surprised that, if it exists (I assume it does), it hasn't been made public yet.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:07 pm - Apr 30, 2020


gerrybhoy67 30th April 2020 at 14:45

7

1

Rate This

Thanks Cluster One I was aware
…………..
I don’t believe i gave an answer, you may be getting your CO’s mixed up

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HirsutePursuitPosted on9:11 pm - Apr 30, 2020


JC

I think the eligibility criteria you quote are from pre-covid days.

The page that would be relevant for TRFC would be:

https://www.british-business-bank.co.uk/ourpartners/coronavirus-business-interruption-loan-schemes/clbils/clbils-for-businesses-and-advisors/

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redlichtiePosted on9:18 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HP – from that scheme :

“Have a borrowing proposal which the lender would consider viable, were it not for the current pandemic, and for which the lender believes the provision of finance will enable the business to trade out of any short-term to medium-term difficulty”

“For facilities above £250,000, personal guarantees may still be required, but claims cannot exceed 20% of losses after all other recoveries have been applied.”

Mmmm…..

Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.

PS Still nae interims.

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HirsutePursuitPosted on9:23 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Redlichtie

Perhaps Mr Park could use his business assets as security?

…oh wait! wink

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HirsutePursuitPosted on9:31 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Last week I wrote this:

HirsutePursuit
25th April 2020 at 11:22
 37 2 Rate This

UTH

I genuinely don't think that TRFC have an 'end game' as such.

In common with many other stressed businesses, it is likely to be all about short term cashflow.

The SPFL 2nd place prize money (that has not already been advanced) would probably cover less than a fortnight of its running costs. In the grand scheme of things, that just scratches the surface of what is needed right now.

The number one priority has to be to open up an income stream and try to secure its immediate survival. What happens in a month's time is immaterial if the company ceases to trade in the next couple of weeks.

Don't be surprised if STs go on sale early next week and there is no simple credit card option. Instead, I'd expect an 'offer' or suggestion to purchase next year's season tickets in an unusual way.

Something that will tick the 'staunch' box. Something that is likely to be easily swallowed by the raging mob, fuelled by its misplaced sense of injustice.

But, most of all, something that allows TRFC to get its hands on the cash without waiting for those pesky games to be played.

I hope they haven't taken my prediction as the basis of TRFC's business plan! mail

Rangers Football Club (@RangersFC) Tweeted: 01.05.20 | #MyGers https://t.co/Jlk1GDtnCd https://twitter.com/RangersFC/status/1255912299010940928?s=20

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John ClarkPosted on9:33 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 21:11

'..I think the eligibility criteria you quote are from pre-covid days.'

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Very happy to be corrected, HP: thanks.

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HomunculusPosted on9:35 pm - Apr 30, 2020


HirsutePursuit 30th April 2020 at 21:06

Got you, thanks for that.

Presumably there is a time limit before the meeting, to give people time to consider things.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:35 pm - Apr 30, 2020


SPL chase Rangers EBT inquiry legal costs. Oldco Rangers were fined £250,000 in February after being found guilty of breaching SPL rules relating to payments issued through their Employee Benefit Trust scheme from 2000 to 2011.

The costs of the probe are reported to be up to £500,000.

Rangers say it is “ridiculous” to expect them to foot the bill.

The inquiry lasted almost a year and the verdict was delivered by an independent commission, led by judge Lord Nimmo Smith and featuring two QCs.

A statement from the league read: “There has been a routine application for costs given that the case was successfully pursued by the SPL.”

The SPL would not expand on whether they were pursuing the newco Rangers for costs but they would have no chance of securing any from oldco Rangers, which is in liquidation.
………………..
I can’t remember if the costs were ever paid. the fine was recouped using the offset rule.

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Cluster OnePosted on9:41 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Lost my mother today. In her late 80s, another victim of the virus she caught in hospital. Not good to shoot from the hip, but had this vile Tory govt done their job in the interests of the many, she’d still be around to give me dogs abuse for another few years. Sleep tight Ma.
…………
condolences to one of our own.

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jimboPosted on9:51 pm - Apr 30, 2020


I am honestly stumped how the clubs are going to deal with the sale of season tickets/books.

So many unknowns.

  • When will the season start and for how long?
  • How many teams in each league?

-Therefore, how many home matches?

-What will the ground capacity be with ‘distancing’?

=Will STs be valid for every home match or eg. alternative games in order to share out if reduced capacity?

  • How do you price it as a result of the unknowns?

 

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Corrupt officialPosted on9:54 pm - Apr 30, 2020


So sorry for your loss Cluster……. Heartfelt condolences. x

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Cluster OnePosted on10:00 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Corrupt official 30th April 2020 at 21:5
…………
Not me CO, Big Pink i believe.
sorry if my message came across wrong

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Corrupt officialPosted on10:19 pm - Apr 30, 2020


 Apologies C . And to you BP. Genuinely sorry for both the misunderstanding and your Ma's passing.  

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John ClarkPosted on10:39 pm - Apr 30, 2020


easyJambo 30th April 2020 at 20:22

'.Steven Gerrard has now written a message to fans ..'

Homunculus 30th April 2020 at 20:29

'..What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read. '

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

There is little likelihood, I would say, that Gerrard penned that letter himself,  and that's not a meant to be an insulting-to-Gerrard observation: his gifts lay in another sphere (with another 'sphere', indeed!) entirely. 

With the stress on 'loyalty', 'readiness',  civic contribution ('Rangers makes Glasgow') and the wee reference to the 'UK', it strikes many of the regular emotional chords and will play well, especially with the 'decent' TRFC supporters and potential season-book purchasers. 

One thing very noticeable by its absence is the tone of tub-thumping aggression.

I hope that that is not just because the letter was to be signed by Gerrard, and that it signals that the PR man at Ibrox might have begun to learn that quiet, genuine dignity and subtlety of expression while it may not garner you additional friends might help stop you making enemies!

( The letter could, of course, have been better structured, to avoid the rambling and disjointed sequencing of concepts and redundant repetition. If I were to mark it as an effort by a Higher English candidate in exam conditions, I'd give it a bare 'pass' by reference to the standards obtaining in 1960!)broken heart

 

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misterlightbulbjokePosted on10:59 pm - Apr 30, 2020


An old episode of the American sci-fi series The Twilight  Zone has been brought forward  in my thoughts  due to the current circumstances  in Scottish  football. In the episode in question a new sort of  shop opens up in a  small town and it had an interesting business  model,it paid people  a fee in  exchange for a memory,the memory would be extracted by machine. At first the locals loved it, strapped into a strange looking contraption for five painless minutes then off they went with dollars to spend. Thing was it all felt too easy and tragically the locals realized one by one that by given away their memories they had in  fact given away themselves. What’s this got to do with Scottish  football,Scottish society?

In February 2012 it was announced that Rangers football club had went into administration. There followed in Scotland daily feverish reporting on the subject of Rangers’ future,people may recall for instance Chick Young’s Govan Utd talk almost nightly on BBC Sportsound.Of course  on here we know how the story ended,liquidation.

Rangers fans find those five months mentally unacceptable and have taken it seems all the memories they have of that  time and thrown them away.They have,unlike the poor folks in small town America,still to realise that by throwing away part of our memory bank we throw away a part  of ourselves. Things in reality as a consequence  of memory depletion fail  to make sense to Rangers fans anymore,they are suffering from,due to their own belief system,a form of dementia,they  are almost the dictionary definition  of demented.Dementia patients tragically can no longer hold short memories sequentially, this for instance  can lead to a sufferer being in a scenario where they  have put their purse in the kitchen drawer for safe- keeping .If no memory of this act is logged and only the initial memory of the purse being on the fireplace remains  trouble ensues. Children  can easily find themselves standing in their mother’s living-room having to fight off genuine felt accusations  of theft where the purses absence  from the fireplace is exhibit A. This scenario has  already  happened here in Scotland,Jim Spence argued with the demented memory of the Rangers’,support and paid the price. This is only ever going to get worse, dementia  only ever does.

 

 

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Big PinkPosted on11:23 pm - Apr 30, 2020


Thanks for the condolences CO and CO.
My mum’s passing had been a while coming, but you’re never ready. Not been affected by death in the immediate family for over thirty years, so I’m not at all practiced. I am grateful for the support I’ve had from relatives and friends. Times like these you realise who those friends are.
Hopefully I’ll be back to full function in the next few days.
John

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John ClarkPosted on11:42 pm - Apr 30, 2020


misterlightbulbjoke 30th April 2020 at 22:59

'.If no memory of this act is logged and only the initial memory of the purse being on the fireplace remains  trouble ensues'

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Yes.

The SMSM most decidedly did not log the memory of Liquidation; Traynor, for one, made either a liar or a complete farce of himself with self-contradictory reporting, and the other jackals in the SMSM and BBC [one or two honourable exceptions!] drugged on succulent lamb from an early age, piled in in support. 

Whit? The most successful club in world football liquidated? Couldnae, and therefore didnae happen! 

Was there ever such a parcel of rogues as those lying journalists and their even more contemptible editors ( now pleading for us to subscribe online to their dishonest publications!)?

Honest to God!

 

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John ClarkPosted on12:16 am - May 1, 2020


Big Pink 30th April 2020 at 23:23

‘.Thanks for the condolences CO and CO.’

“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

BP, please accept my heartfelt condolences on the death of the mother who bore you.

Mammy, mum, mother…maw… We’ve all had one as and at the very core of our being.

And those of us, like you now ,who have lost the woman who brought us to life, have an understanding of how significant our mothers were as being the first person, and perhaps the only person, who loved us unconditionally.

God be with your mum.

 

 

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HirsutePursuitPosted on12:28 am - May 1, 2020


Big Pink
30th April 2020 at 23:23

…………..

Deepest condolences John. It is never easy dealing with the loss of those closest to us.

Everyone, especially the elderly, our NHS and our care staff, have been left utterly exposed by this horrible virus.

It's particularly sad that even now, with the elderly known to be so vulnerable, idiots like Trump are agitating the hordes to get things back to 'normal'. Unfortunately, unless an effective vaccine is developed, I fear we may never see 'normal' again.

I hope we can hold firm with what we're doing for now and fewer of us have to endure the pain you are feeling.

God bless you and yours.

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jimboPosted on12:31 am - May 1, 2020


BP,  Thoughts and prayers John.   Lost my own mother after a long illness.  You have my sympathy.

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BC_CeltPosted on1:12 am - May 1, 2020


Condolences, BP. Both mine are still going at 92, on the Isle of Man, with support from my sister.

RIP, Mrs C.

 

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shugPosted on6:52 am - May 1, 2020


Heartfelt Condolences BP I know what you will be going through I am 60 and both mine have been gone for more than 20 years.You will get through this the pain will ease but the good memories will always be with you take care and stay safe.

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LUGOSIPosted on7:48 am - May 1, 2020


Big Pink.

So sorry.

Nothing I can say but I can't say nothing.

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reasonablechapPosted on8:49 am - May 1, 2020


Aurellio Zen

I must say that any reasonable person would have deduced that we were being steered in a particular direction early on in this recent flood of interventions. 

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I'm hardly going to change opinion on here and wouldn't bother trying to. 

The only serious attempt to steer opinion this week has been a concentrated campaign from the SPFL, both directly and indirectly.

It's a pity they weren't as forthcoming and ready to communicate when the questions started to arise. They didn't have the answers nor the leadership when needed but they've now been forced/advised to go on an intensive PR/lobbying drive.

Meanwhile, Rangers stay quiet and maintain the line that was stated in 3 short paragraphs last Sunday.

Those communications tactics seem to be a shift from the normal, ie. it's usually Rangers who go louder and wider.

 

 

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easyJamboPosted on8:57 am - May 1, 2020


BP – I'd like to add my condolences to those expressed by others earlier. 

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reasonablechapPosted on9:01 am - May 1, 2020


Homunculus

The full thing is awesome EJ

What percentage of it do you think Steven Gerrard wrote, or even read. 

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Football club is looking to promote ST sales and the first team manager is used in promotional push. 

The only thing I see that might be considered as awesome is that the letter is so widely read.

Big Pink

I’d like to send my condolences for your loss.
 

 

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FinlochPosted on9:12 am - May 1, 2020


 

Looks like we are now into the fourth or fifth “season” with the return of an old franchise with his new ip number and/ or email address and name.
Same style high intensity and agenda though. 

 

Please don’t feed.

Reasonablechap – Each plans a bore

 

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ChristyboyPosted on9:14 am - May 1, 2020


My condolences to you and yours BP. Thoughts are with you.

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ChristyboyPosted on9:16 am - May 1, 2020


I see Susie Dents word today is Ipsedixitism! 

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easyJamboPosted on9:26 am - May 1, 2020


I see that John Nelms has given a Q&A to Dundee's Evening Telegraph.  I say "given" as it has all the appearance of a list of questions that he was prepared to answer and steers away from anything that might be deemed controversial.

https://www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/dundee-fc-john-nelms-lifts-lid-spfl-vote-u-turn/

Today also sees the latest meeting of the Premiership clubs, after which a decision could be made on concluding the Premiership season.

Interestingly, the DR says that TRFC's EGM request will be top of the agenda, while the BBC says that it's not on the agenda.

Hmmmmm!  Which one to believe?  I'll have a think about it for a few nanoseconds and say neither.

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