LNS is currently back in the headlines. It might therefore be a good time to try to set out a timeline describing correspondence we had with the representatives of the authorities over discrepancies and anomalies that appeared to have arisen. None of this is necessarily predicated upon the recent findings of the CoS in the Big Tax Case, but stands on its own.
Back in February 2014 The Scottish Football Monitor wrote to Harper MacLeod, the law firm that the SPL had engaged to gather evidence for the Lord Nimmo Smith (LNS) Commission investigating the full and proper registration of players paid by Rangers Football Club under Employee Benefit Trust (EBT) arrangements.
The initial set-up of the LNS Commission on 5th March 2012 by the SPL (View File) charged LNS with a look at EBTs from 1st July 1998 (when the SPL came into being).
In practice though, the Commission only looked at EBTs from 23 November 2000 onwards.
This change of date was based on the earliest side letter supplied by Duff and Phelps, although Harper MacLeod had requested ALL documentation from 1998 to March 2012 relating to ALL EBTs.
This prompted a series of letters to Harper MacLeod from The Scottish Football Monitor, although Harper MacLeod’s replies failed to address the issues raised.
The passage of time blurs memories but this archive is designed to remind readers of those blogs and correspondence, and the key points contained in them.
It also highlights the apparent inability or unwillingness on the part of the SPL and SFA to engage with us in any meaningful way.
NB: The SFA were informed of our correspondence by Harper MacLeod in October 2014.
It is extremely difficult to be concise in this situation. There are various strands of argument and details seemingly small, but vitally important – however the following is an attempt to make the material accessible and provides links to the relevant files in chronological order (links are in green).
- Item 1: The first SFM letter of 19th February 2014 to Harper MacLeod
- Item 2: The Annexes containing the documents apparently not supplied to Harper Macleod in the spring of 2012 along with other pertinent information about the testimony given to LNS during the Commission.
- Item 3: The SFM response of 29 March 2014 to Harper MacLeod’s reply to the first letter.
- Item 3.1: An SFM analysis of Harper MacLeod’s initial reply attached to response at 3.
- Item 4: An SFM blog of 5th September pointing out how the documents not supplied had a direct impact on the advice given to the SPL Board to accept The Decision of The LNS Commission.
- Item 5: The last letter of 4th October 2014 to Harper MacLeod answering points raised by them (see next) and thanking them for passing our correspondence to the SFA Compliance Officer who has so far deigned not to reply.
- Item 5.1: Harper MacLeod’s actual response to SFM 5th September letter.
- Item 6: An SFM Blog (Inc. a transcript of an interview between Alex Thomson and Stewart Regan).
- Item 6.1: Truncated version of above blog.
- Item 7: A clearer extract of key document from Item 2 Annexes
Having no locus to demand answers from the SPL or the SFA, all we can do is provide information – information that we believe presents a prima facie case that LNS was deeply flawed even before the latest developments in the Tax Case came to light. The challenge for us is this: what can we do about it?
It is clear from the meagre response we have received that the authorities are unwilling to engage with us, so it is fair to assume that further correspondence will be met with the same lack of response.
Are we merely a bunch of obsessed nut-jobs with our own take on the Flat Earth conspiracy? If that is the case, surely a few words of explanation to dispel our doubts would have had traction with the rest of the football public. Indeed the lack of any reply undoubtedly serves as confirmation of our belief that something may be seriously wrong.
The questions have been posed. The SFA appears to think that not answering them is a wise course of action. Given that anecdotal evidence presents a compelling case that the general football public are widely in agreement with us, are there any journalists out there who will take the time to look at what we have observed and what we seek clarification on?
There are undoubtedly inferences to be drawn from the evidence we have, and from the silence of the authorities.
The statement by Celtic on Friday 13th November is certainly a start in the process we wish to begin, but it only mentions the elephant in the room. It gives no clue about how it could be transported to another place.
In the first instance we at SFM seek only explanations, and despite the inferences mentioned earlier, we are still eager to be satisfied that rules were followed and justice done.
Is there really nobody in the MSM who has the courage to seek the answers we seek? I suspect not. What we do in the absence of that courage is important. We are at a crossroads. Either we give up on the game altogether and spend our Saturdays and Sundays doing other things – or we find a way to get these questions out of blog pages and into the mainstream.
We need an alliance of fans of all clubs to do that, and we will be looking to build that alliance. I would urge fans of all clubs to give this material to fan sites of their own clubs.
These are not just words. There can be no movement on this issue unless our reach is extended. SFM alone does not have the clout required to bring the clubs to the table or the MSM to fair and balanced reporting. We need that alliance of fans desperately. We don’t seek leadership of that alliance – but we are happy to provide it if required.
This is not a campaign to have Rangers punished. I understand that Rangers fans (since their club is in the middle of this mess) are reluctant to see us as anything other than a bunch of Rangers haters.
That is unequivocally not the case from the perspective of the moderators of this blog. SFM is committed to justice, and to the integrity of the sport we all love.
Justice is ON THE SIDE of Rangers and their fans – it does not conspire against them. A growing number of Rangers fans are coming round to our way of thinking and our tone must reflect that. This is not a Celtic or Hearts or Aberdeen or anybody else v Rangers issue. This is a fans v corrupt authorities issue.
We all deserve answers, and hopefully our alliance will compel each individual club to act in the interests of the fans .
Not sure if it has been mentioned but the old nutshell of B Teams in the lower leagues has reared its head I see.
I’m sure there is a debate to be had about that but frankly with our media coverage that debate has never been allowed to flourish.
Deila may be right, this might help develop young players. But I’m not yet convinced and there has been no discussion of the detail (as usual).
Would it just help the big clubs develop more young players or would it actually developer more and better quality players for our game overall as a whole? – This is the key question which will never be asked by our media or administrators.
Its clear now most folk involved our game and media have a problem recognising whats good for the big clubs from whats good for the game overall.
There is also a lazy assumption that Celtic and Rangers should be allowed B teams – and no other club merits a mention. So would this be available for all clubs who can do so, or only for the “big 2”? Again, not really discussed.
Would the ability to field more young players mean Rangers and Celtic cherry pick even more young boys than they already do to put in their youth and B team? No mention of this possibility either that I have seen.
Lastly, our big 2 don’t exactly have an earth shattering record of developing top quality talent at the moment, so why would we want them to hoover up more young players? Would this actually set our game back? Again no discussion.
Perhaps we should start be allowing Queens Park to have B team in the third division, they seem to be developing about as many good young players as anyone else in Scotland!
But as usual, I won’t hold my breath for any of the necessary discussion of the pro’s and con’s of this in the media. Instead we will just be treated to the usual arrogance, bullying and promotion of the media’s own agendas at the expense of Scottish Football.
They really are keeping us back and when you realise it, there is no surprise just how hopeless our international team has been for many many years.
Our game is run by (and for?) ignorant dinosaurs.
It is reported on/covered by similar ignorant dinosaurs.
Sorry to be a pest,can someone tell me where sfm central is?
Matty Roth
you do worry about the game in Scotland,as long as we have the incompetents that think they can write about our game it will never be allowed to improve,but as long as the Xmas voting turkeys continue to buy the rags that print the guff that is written our game continues to stagnate,yes that’s correct,Joe Public is the guy that’s keeping these self inflated egotistic people in a job,these same turkeys even call up the radio programmes these imposters are on only to ridiculed on air,time to wake up and smell the coffee.
Ryan,
On your point about lots of clubs getting into debt and stiffing creditors, there is certainly some merit. I think HMRC or our glorious leaders made a comment that HMRC should not be seen as a credit facility. I also recall the experts in the media telling us how the smaller clubs lack ambition – which came across as condescending and provocative, rather than encouraging.
My club, Clyde, made a push for the SPL on the back of the move to Cumbernauld but the static or reducing crowds couldn’t sustain the spending, despite the loftier position. One game away from promotion (only one team up, subject to ground eligibility, of course), we lost out to ICT. Had we gone up, we would have played at Rugby Park as Broadwood, despite being a modern all seater stadium, wasn’t good enough for the cartel. Maybe we’d have prospered if we’d gone up. Maybe we’d have carried on overspending. Who knows?
Like Rangers gambling all on Euro glory, Clyde failed to get to the promised land and we nearly went pop. The full time squad was encouraged to do walking away from their contracts and we scraped part time squads together that simply fulfilled fixtures to keep us alive. We finished bottom of the First, Second and Third Divisions in successive seasons. We can genuinely say that, due to our financial difficulties, we were demoted to the bottom tier. I’m not proud of our temerity to overspend in trying to improve our lot (showing ambition?) but it was done at a time when we might have captured the imagination of the Cumbernauld community and grown our fan base and income and could have been a success like ICT. Ultimately, we blew it (in several ways) and stiffed creditors. To my knowledge, though, we didn’t break rules and, presumably, “it was all declared in the accounts”.
Like Rangers fans, Clyde fans will just have turned up to watch their team and we’ve had a harsh lesson about ambition without proper budgeting. I think Clyde, having eventually cleared the debt that didn’t form part of our CVA, have learned from that and have a tight control of finances but still want to compete at the highest level we can (no rightful place, though). The noises from Ibrox, albeit at a different level, suggest things haven’t changed too much there.
I’ve rambled on a bit with my sob story but also wanted to ask (if you can still read through tear-filled eyes) why you thought Rangers fans were more important than other fans. This is where I have a problem. What is the cut off point in fan numbers where fans of one club are accommodated and others may be thrown to the wind?
To show there’s no animosity, Ryan, I’m quite prepared to sign a petition to have Jingso Jimsie stripped of his gut gag and have it attributed to you.?
Can I just get something clear. Getting into debt via loans from either financial institution, shareholders or other sources (who have presumably agreed this) and getting into debt via a mixture of tax avoidance, and straightforward stealing of the tax you have collected are not analogous.
The first is genuine poor business, on the side of both the borrower and the lender. The second is a mixture of deceit and stealing.
The bottom line, if we take Rangers for example is that they went into administration and then liquidation because they stole millions of pounds from everyone in the country which they had collected from both their customer and their staff. They spent other people’s money without their permission.
People trying to suggest the two things are analogous are being at best disingenuous.
Here is a quote from a Tax Avoidance expert, Martin Taylor, published in Accountancy Age- http://www.accountancyage.com/aa/news/2433486/rangers-tax-case-decision-astonishing-rebus
“This is astonishing. Unless it is overturned in the Supreme Court, it essentially blows out all EBTs and EFRBS,” Taylor told Accountancy Age. “In simple terms, the court now says that the technical arguments approved by the commissioners and the tribunal in those cases should have been dismissed by an overriding ‘substance over form’ argument. Most firms selling EBT and EFRB structures used very detailed and well-reasoned counsel’s opinions.”
The tax avoidance “industry” are concerned about the general principles which form the basis of the CoS judgement. I believe that the Murray group managers, who did not have side letters, are included in the liabilities established by the CoS judgement. So in the end, the court has found that the scheme failed technically- this was not just a wrongly implemented scheme.
Just listened to the Sportsound podcast from Thursday that many above have mentioned when Paul Brennan from the CQN blog was on the show.
Had I been a first time listener I would have thought Paul was the professional journalist. He was balanced, nuanced and appreciative of the need for the law to take it’s full course and the for the football authorities to take action if guilt were eventually to be the final outcome.
The three supposed professionals came across more like fans.
Kenny MacIntyre and Richard Wilson were in their usual Rangers cheerleading mode. Tom English, as ever, made some good points but just could not bring himself to take the ultimate step to say that Rangers should be punished in the honours stake if the law finds against them. Remember LNS already has on the registration front.
The final discussion, when I assume, Paul had left the studio saw a two minute chat by Wilson and English which more or less told us TSFM should close down.Apparently there is no interest in previous shenanigans by anyone but a set of bitter Celtic fans who will simply not let go. How they arrive at that conclusion is astonishing and one really has to wonder is that their genuine belief or simply their heartfelt wish,
Sportsound rapidly descending into the farce that is Clyde SSB and really shames the BBC.
neepheid 21st November 2015 at 11:36 am
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That is also my understanding.
There seems to be some mystique over these schemes, as if a lawyer and a tax adviser coming up with them makes them somehow “official”, sacrosanct even. Bearing in mind the two people involved in EBTs. A struck of solicitor who is now a pornographer (including acting in the stuff he produces) and a QC who bounced a cheque when repaying money to a charity.
In addition “Thornhill is accused of “engaging in conduct that was dishonest or otherwise discreditable to a barrister and/or engaging in conduct that is likely to bring the profession into disrepute; compromising professional independence and/or accepting monies that led to a compromise of professional independence; compromising professional standards and accepting instructions when professionally embarrassed”.”
The bottom line is that people like these look at the minutiae of the law. They then come up with intricate ways of paying people which they claim results in them not having to pay as much tax as if the money went to them in a pay packet or as a monthly payment into their bank account, like us mere mortals.
They then sell these “schemes” they have came up with to others who don’t want to pay tax. With intricate instructions on how they must be operated. The more intricate and convoluted the instructions the more likely it is that it’s tax avoidance in the first place. Series of meaningless transactions to arrive at a simple end is an indicator of avoidance. If the steps have no commercial value then why take them, other than to avoid tax which is properly due.
From what I can see there are two important things here. The first is that Rangers failed purely by using the side letters. Contractual payments could not go through EBTs, it’s as simple as that. More importantly the whole scheme fails, even if it is operated “properly”. That is what the industry is panicking about.
Everyone everywhere who ever had money through an EBT, more importantly the employer who made that payment will be panicking over this.
This is why I think HMRC would not be particularly unhappy to go to the Supreme Court. It would leave the avoiders with nowhere to go. Other than to argue that what they did was so different from what the Supreme Court ruled on as to make the precedent fail. Though if they rule that the whole notion fails then that wouldn’t really apply.
jimmci 21st November 2015 at 11:44 am
The final discussion, when I assume, Paul had left the studio saw a two minute chat by Wilson and English which more or less told us TSFM should close down. Apparently there is no interest in previous shenanigans by anyone but a set of bitter Celtic fans who will simply not let go. How they arrive at that conclusion is astonishing and one really has to wonder is that their genuine belief or simply their heartfelt wish.
________________________________________
They know, I repeat, they KNOW that it is not just Celtic fans who are angry. The read this blog – they all do – so they know perfectly well that making it a Celtic Rangers issue is mendacious.
They might have more traction if they were to say that it’s only us internet types who are bothered. After all there is without doubt a constituency of people out there who are bored by the whole thing because of the length of time it’s been going on – people who just want it to stop.
However the mistake they make there is to conflate boredom with a willingness to walk away and accept that it’s over.
I don’t think Wilson’s – or Keith Jackson’s for that matter – motivations is a fan of Rangers. Whatever we think of those guys, their rationale is not as base as that. There are fans of other clubs in the media who take exactly the same line as they do.
There are two issues here.
Firstly they need to play to a demographic for commercial purposes,
Secondly, they know that the levels of interest in a “return of the OF” will enhance their security of employment.
Doesn’t make them bad people, just self-interested human beings. What I find troublesome is that they are supposed to be looking for truth – and I don’t think they do a good enough job of doing that. Not restricted to sports journalism in Scotland either I’m afraid.
Journalistically, if they present a case, or a comment or quote, they should be looking for a counterpoint. That just doesn’t happen, and even if they had Paul Brennan on the other evening presenting his case, having him vacate the mic so they can have the last word to advance their message with the weight their status as presenters gives them is very unprofessional.
Consider any set-piece adversarial political news item on Newsnight for example, and compare it to the lack of balance and rigour of our phone-ins. Hey, I still scream at the telly when Newsnight is on, but at least my guy sometimes gets the last word.
Journalists are not editors. But there is an increasing tendency for them to editorialise constantly. I think that they are trying to emulate social media, and the irony is that whilst we – as a social media outlet – are trying to present a more balanced news presentation, the mainstream guys are all turning into bloggers.
Problem is that to blog successfully you need an audience of people who share your views, and some access to expertise.
None of the mainstream guys are any more experts on this situation than we are – in fact I’d say they are considerably less so. However they present themselves in that way – that’s why more often than not, they get found out.
BP
wrt T-Shirts:
They will probably be navy blue and/or white.
————————–
you’ve just alienated half of Glasgow,most of Aberdeen & a good bit of Edinburgh also!!
Not sure it has been mentioned but the Daily Mail reporting Ashley got an interim interdict at the CoS yesterday that blocks the resolution to deny him his full voting rights at the AGM but lost on two applications regarding the right of the board to allocate shares as planned.
Given his agreement with the SFA and the precedents of “dual involvement’ throughout football that seems about the right result in that it seems there was a non argument in trying to block him from voting but now he has a full vote the resolution for xshare allocation can proceed as it would with most other companies who are in the grubber trying to raise cash.
“None of the mainstream guys are any more experts on this situation than we are – in fact I’d say they are considerably less so. However they present themselves in that way – that’s why more often than not, they get found out.”
————————————————————————————-
Good point BP. So far as I know none of them are qualified lawyers or accountants so it’s down to opinions just like your average blogger.
Admittedly they probably have access to their company legal & financial people but if that is the case and they make use of such expertise why do they not quote chapter & verse? Back up their assertions?
They don’t. Just sounds like a fan’s take on things.
I have no inside knowledge or particular insight here, but it seems intuitive to me that only parties to the CoS action on EBTs can appeal to the Supreme Court. Furthermore, I fail to see how any appeal would be in creditors’ interests because of the risks and costs involved; and I include HMRC in that on both sides as it were. My reading of the CoS judgement is that HMRC have their result – as soon as payment is made, it is an emolument or salary and therefore taxable. I also seriously doubt anyone will chuck money into a pot for someone else to pursue an action simply because as someone in the “tax-minimisation” industry told me: they will move on and come up with a different scheme because it’s what they are paid to do. I therefore think it slightly wishful thinking that there will be an appeal.
ref T-Shirts.
What No Claret and Blue..
wottpi 21st November 2015 at 12:51 pm
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Rights or share issues should not really be used just to keep the business operating. Certainly not time after time.
They should be used to raise capital to develop the business, for example to purchase new machinery in order to satisfy a contract which you have won. Where a capital injection leads directly to a higher turnover and better profits.
Share or rights issues just to break even because it is a loss making business with no line of credit just illustrates to the World that the business in it’s present form is unsustainable.
Hardly news though. Three sets of accounts, substantial losses in each and we are now in the fourth year with the business declaring to the World that this will be a loss making year again and any money brought in is just to try to break even.
Root and branch transformation is required to have any chance of survival.
Simple thing to rebut the obsessed Celtic blog accusation- list the allegiances of the site users – Clyde for one -locations of clubs might show how widespread the blog is as would general locations of members. My guess would be that there will be a wide geographic and allegiance spread, certainly wider than some West Central radio station’s reach.
Ok it is a self selecting sample but that does not negate the point at all.
John Clark 21st November 2015 at 2:41 am # paddy malarkey 21st November 2015 at 1:58 am‘… All in the eye of the beholder .’
Hi, John .
I appear to have developed a knack of irritating you (and others judging by td’s). It’s not intentional – my command of written English may be worse than I thought .
‘… All in the eye of the beholder .’ refers to Juventus fans still counting stripped titles in their totals . However the Scottish football authorities decide to deal with this problem ,in the real world there will still be fans of Rangers who will ignore any revision .
But the club did not exit administration , it progressed from there to liquidation .
As I said, RFC is being liquidated and I agree cannot add to any trophies won. I put won in inverted commas to cast doubt on their validity I know they cheated, they know they cheated . I didn’t say different .
I don’t know where you are coming from wrt Rangers today . I have always insisted it is a new club wearing the old club’s clothes(maybe rented). And, yes, we are probably stuck with it unless it dies on us .
I’ll put the shovel down now and head out to the game .
bfbpuzzled,
For the avoidance of doubt my allegiance is to Celtic.
But I’m happy to say I hold no dislike for any other team in Scotland (other than when they are playing against my team!). When Hearts, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell etc. play in Europe I support them.
Unfortunately bar one. I will not go into it but it is on so many levels. I will say this though. I’m pleased with where they are on the park just now. MW & DW keep out of all the shenanegans and are moderate in their speech. And although I haven’t seen much of their games they don’t seem to be as ‘agricultural’ as previous teams. I would also doubt if the present bunch of players sing the party songs of old in the changing room after a win. Now if they could just sort out all the other stuff. A bit of humility for past sins would be a start.
PS, I wish there were 40k Ryans and jjs at Ibrox.
Ryan,
Excellent post. Delighted you’re still looking in.
1/ Fully agree re apology and the justification. As the Lords said, its common sense.
Just as an aside though I’m going to start the pedantism early. You mention David Murray embarking on his money saving scheme. I am yet to be convinced that there was any element of saving. Rather, it was the robbing (sorry) of Hector to pay Paul (le guen). Pedantic? Yes absolutely. Why? A very early comment made by RTC actually. I paraphrase, “that given the technical detail of this case you will see a lot of inaccurate comment, but strangely it will all lean in the same direction.” This has proven undoubtedly to be the case. I absolutely realise given your posting history that that wasn’t your intention here, I am just trying to explain my sensitivity to such comments.
2/ Agree. A Rangers following (in fact a following following if you see what I mean and pardon the pun) was inevitable. So why the nonsense? Tell it for what it was AND THEN accept it into Div 4 (sorry John C but commerciality beats reality = fact as my kids would say). If “Rangers” is accepted in common media parlance as they have indeed been what is the harm of the red book and the trophy engraver adding a “The?” That’s not spite, or hating or anything of the sort. See comments on liquidation for justification.
Much of the rhetoric was to do with Rangers disappearing. It was never going to happen. I didn’t particularly want it to happen for that matter hence the commerciality comment above, as long as the entity bearing the name played to the same book as my team, before and after.
I have to state an issue with your view 41 clubs following rules and 1 not, can we not get a settlement that keeps us all happy? Eh, no.
3/ LNS. Agree. Title stripping is not the obvious consequence btw. Lets actually have the enquiry first and sort it out from there. But,(SFA, not you Ryan) don’t take the piss this time.
4/ Agree, and for what its worth, thank you!
5/ No. Administration is administration. Liquidation is liquidation. Don’t confuse the two, or else why make the distinction at all. The rule re the 25% CVA vote didn’t change because of the bampots. SDM flew his RFC kite too near the sun. He didn’t stay back and get burned. He incinerated. Suspect we’ll never agree on this point but my standpoint, again, is not a Rangers thing. If we ignore that Liquidation is actually quite important then it simply opens the door to someone doing it again, and again… in the pursuit of fools gold. How do you reinforce the rule? Very simple. The name appearing in the book and on the trophy can’t be the same pre liquidation as it is post liquidation. What Sally says on Reporting Scotland I can live with (since Ive lived with only being told two scores for the last 35 years in any case).
6/ Fair enough.
On a separate note Ryan, are you aware of the James Forrest timeline blog thing being constructed just now (sorry I can’t do linky things). I’m genuinely interested in the RFC perspective on it and whether it is considered accurate and fair. I’m aware of a couple of bits that, in my opinion, it goes a bit “green” with no immediately obvious purpose but overall I consider it, so far, to be fair.
Thoughts? (maybe too early to say of course)
Sorry, in case you’re looking in James that comment appears critical of you. Far from it. Its a fantastic piece of work and I look forward to the 3rd instalment, and 4th, and 5th…..
Fundamentally though what will be needed on this story is a factual account. There’s already bits of this story that I had forgotton that you have flagged up. Yours is a terrific effort hence my interest to hear what t’other side are thinking of it.
paddy malarkey 21st November 2015 at 2:20 pm
‘…I know they cheated, they know they cheated . I didn’t say different .’
_____-
And I’m sorry if I seemed to imply that you did.That was not my intention.
No, I was merely concerned to underline the point that no matter how many supporters choose to delude themselves, the true facts are the true facts, and as long as
-the official record books and Scottish Football history record the plain unvarnished truth that RFC(IL) cheated and were not entitled to certain trophies and titles
-as long as these ‘achievements’ are removed from their official history,
and as long as the official records record the fact that TRFC are not now and never can be RFC(IL), I’ll be content, and begin again to think that our game might be rescued from deceit and dishonesty.
Smugas,
Thanks for your posts. I had in fact read and been in touch with James on his article. I found it fascinating in many ways and thought it was very good. As you said, a couple of bits where it went a bit green, but other than that I thought it factually well written and really quite impressive. I’d like to see something like that appear in a newspaper, because I really think a lot of Rangers fans simply don’t understand what has happened and will never trust a site such as this, but I don’t see that happening somehow!
As to point five in your response to my post last night, I certainly didn’t mean to confuse or blur the lines between liquidation and administration. My point was that when it comes to moralising about Rangers screwing creditors, they’re not the only ones to have done so. Only ones to have done a lot of other things (must point out I acknowledge that before I get a tongue lashing from Mr Clark!) but not the only football team in Scotland who have caused other parties to lose money.
I hear what you say Ryan and agree in both cases the creditors get stiffed. The difference though is also tied up in the confusion you mention re what actually happened. I have oft heard it said that the rules don’t stipulate what happens to a club post liquidation as opposed to post admin. I maintain there is no confusion. No-one until about June 2012 ever envisaged such a thing happening. I’m still not entirely sure what the end result of ‘the confusion’ has been. Sorry I know this is touching on OC/NC and I can feel your eyes greying over but everything since has stemmed from that point.
RyanGosling 21st November 2015 at 5:32 pm #
Smugas,
“… not the only football team in Scotland who have caused other parties to lose money.”
=======================================
Rangers didn’t just “cause others to lose money” Rangers stole money.
They agreed a tax debt with HMRC and have never paid it, in spite of agreeing to do so. In spite of the actions of Sheriff’s Officers and of HMRC placing arrestments on bank accounts.
They then, whilst that money was still unpaid collected tax from employees, and rather than giving it to it’s rightful owner they spent it. At the same time they collected VAT from their customers, and rather than giving it to it’s rightful owner they spent it.
That is not intended as a defence of any other football club which may have done the same, or any other business which may have done the same. It is a response to the ridiculous “… caused other parties to lose money”.
If you want to really face the truth then face it. Rangers have not only been guilty of tax avoidance amounting to tens of millions of pounds. They have also collected millions on behalf of every person in the UK, actually had that money in a bank account, and simply stolen it from all of us.
Homunculus,
You ignored the part of the same sentence which said “only ones to have done s lot of things”, alluding to the many failures of Rangers to behave responsibly. You also called part of my post, “caused other parties to lose money” ridiculous. I fail to see how this simple statement of fact is ridiculous. Furthermore, Rangers are not the only club in Scotland who have unpaid tax debts – I believe HMRC only received a portion of what they were owed when Hearts exited administration with a successful CVA – although please correct me if that is incorrect Allyjambo / Easyjambo.
I don’t know what truth you think I am not facing. My comments above are not a defence of Rangers in any way, they simply refer back to my original post which was discussing ways to move on from the current situation, and my view was that while Rangers have behaved appallingly in many ways they are simply not the only club to have stuffed creditors.
This is from the SoS Facebook page.
They don’t do themselves any favours, do they? As far as I can see, it is simply the order on reporting restrictions after a delay in publication. Not issued by Charles Green but by Lord Docherty to stop any reporting that might jeopardise the ongoing criminal trials. But then, I guess SOS would not get to have a dig at CG or anyone else if they jst went with the truth
John Clark 21st November 2015 at 5:06 pm #
Hi, John .
I wish you well with that shopping list , given the weasels currently running our game . True facts are true facts, but there are still people around who swear Elvis is alive (U-hu-hu )Fist bump smiley !
STICKY
Thanks for the mug and calendar orders.
We only got a dozen or so mugs, but demand has quickly outstripped supply and we ran out within an hour!
Those we had in stock have all been posted today, but there are more coming on Tuesday so everyone will get their order next week.
The mugs really look great, and aside from being a useful badge for us, it will get the message spread a little further too because it is quite a striking look.
The calendars are a bit ordinary I’m afraid, but the handling and postage/packing is tricky because of the size and is inflating the price.
We are possibly getting some T-Shirts made next week (L & XL – think about our demographic!) and they may be available in time for Christmas 🙂
They will probably be navy blue and/or white.
Both the mug and calendar items are still available for order on the “SHOP” menu item at the very top of the page,
or from
http://www.sfmonitor.org/shop
Also available from SFM Central if anyone wants to pop in and pick one up 🙂
Copied over from Jamboskickback, a lesson from Paul Hartley in how to deal with lambmunchers
(Brian McLaughlan? BBC Rangers) looking to trap former players into muck raising mode. I wonder if he (
) will ever attempt to get an unscripted response from an EBT holder in a similar fashion!
“BM; So, Paul, you’re back at your old ground today?
PH; Yes, it’s a brilliant club, I’d a great four years here
BM: But there were bad times as well as good when you were here
PH: No, it was all good
BM: But, eh, I mean, I was thinking of the off-field troubles
PH: No, I loved every minute of my time here. Brilliant club.”
I wonder if the
planned to ask about title stripping, but thought…
Apart from the fact that I didn’t compare them. Don’t know why I bother sometimes.
Ryan. I get where you are coming from, and have a lot of sympathy from a fitba point of view, for your place in a very difficult situation. I think you would be a credit to any fan-base, and many clubs would be proud to claim you as one of their own I would like to meet you halfway, But there is no halfway, when talking about “potentially” (subject to appeal) the biggest corruption scandal in British sport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxPZ5ExeAqY
Ryan, as a fan of a club guilty of gross financial mismanagement (The Pars) I’d like to divert the conversation in a slightly different direction.
Pars fans were lucky enough to (more or less) unite against the previous ownership of the club and starve them out before taking control of the club during administration. We dropped points at Albion Rovers yesterday, but I’d rather be in second place in League One with the fans running the club in a responsible way than be in the Premier League with Gavin Masterton in charge.
What would be your preferred ownership structure for Rangers? Do you think it is viable for Rangers fans to take control in some way? If so, do you think they could organise to stay away? Having been through it at Dunfermline, I think the only way to take control is to crash the bus and then have the fans ready to pick up the pieces in administration.
I think you need to kill the company to save the club. What do you think?
I think it may have been easyJambo or Allyjambo ( and, I’m happy to say, I have had the pleasure to meet both) who posted the other day that the Ashley ‘ for Judicial review’ is being called on Tuesday next .I tried to find the relevant entry in the Court of Session Rolls, and made the mistake of thinking that if I had reached the business listed for 25th November and hadn’t seen what I was looking for, then maybe there had been a change. But no! I more or less accidentally scrolled on, and earlier dates appeared. There it was
“LADY WOLFFE – R Martin, Clerk
Tuesday 24th November
By Order
1P989/15 Pet: Michael Ashley for Judicial Review Brodies LLP Burness Paull LLP 2P1039/15 Pet: Mash Holdings Ltd for Judicial Review Brodies LLP Anderson StrathernLLP Burness Paull LLP“
—-
Now, I wondered whether it would be worthwhile going in for this,or whether it would be just another, routine 5 minute procedural thingy.
So, I looked up the Glossary of Scottish Courts legal terms, to see what the words ‘By Order’ might mean. And this is what it says:
“By order” – A hearing of a case put out for the hearing at the instance of the court and not on the motion of a party.
I have to say that that didn’t take me very far!
Is there a legal in the house tonight who would be kind enough to tell me whether ‘a hearing’ means that the guts of the case will be discussed to any extent?Or is it just another procedural stage?
I’ll attend anyway, of course,just to make sure!
Corrupt official 21st November 2015 at 11:29 pm
____
That AlexThomson/Regan interview: was that the first definitive expression of the ‘Big Lie’ , by the CEO of the ‘governing body ‘of Scottish Footbal, to wit, that all that had happened at Rangers was a ‘change of ownership’ of a living club,instead of the harsh reality that a club had died and a brand new entity had been set up to scavenge the asssets and line a few pockets?
These guys were unbelievable then -and unbelievable now.
Your man Regan got out of cricket administration.And I think it was a wonder that he got the job as CEO of the SFA.
Or, thinking about it, perhaps not! His track record in cricket may have persuaded his interviewing board ( there was one, surely? Was CO on it?) that he met the ‘necessary’ criteria.
“I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear my trousers rolled..” and become forgetful. But who was it on which TV show, had the wee catch phrase ‘ nod, nod, wink wink?’
https://johnjamessite.wordpress.com/2015/11/21/misinformation/
Might be worth a week visit JC.
Wee
Nudge nudge wink wink
Pythons?
paddy malarkey 21st November 2015 at 8:05 pm
‘…I wish you well with that shopping list …..but there are still people around who swear Elvis is alive.’
______
Of course there are.
But you and I ,and the general run of ordinary,decent, balanced football supporters, and supporters of ‘Integrity’ in any field of sport, or competitive games ( ludo, monopoly, draughts, chess, tiddly-winks, or whatever) simply KNOW that Elvis is actually long dead , because he actually died.
In the same way that they KNOW that RFC(IL) is as dead , as a sporting entity, as he is as a performer.
You and I and the rest of Scottish Football must continue to state the harsh truth, while, perhaps, trying to understand the grief of the bereaved.
To do otherwise would be to embrace falsehood as an ideal, and thereby destroy the very idea and essence of Sport.
We simply have to stand ready and consistent in our demand that the wrongdoers be properly brought to justice, and the wrongdoing undone.
ianagain 22nd November 2015 at 12:14 am
‘..Might be worth a week visit JC.’
ianagain 22nd November 2015 at 12:19 am #
‘.Wee ‘
ianagain 22nd November 2015 at 12:40 am #
‘..Nudge nudge wink winkPythons?’
______
Yes, thanks for that link, ianagain.
Yes, I worked out that you meant ‘wee’
And, yes, I think it was one of the Pythons- Eric the idle one?
I shall be in Lady Wolffe’s court on Tuesday, if Ilve and breathe till then!
ohn Clark 22nd November 2015 at 12:14 am #Corrupt official 21st November 2015 at 11:29 pm____That AlexThomson/Regan interview: was that the first definitive expression of the ‘Big Lie’ , by the CEO of the ‘governing body ‘of Scottish Footbal, to wit, that all that had happened at Rangers was a ‘change of ownership’ of a living club
————————-
It was posted on youtube March 2012 John, so prior to Charlie buying the basket of assets. But everything he claimed then as “unproven” has now been proven. It was actually before Charlie had sold them the big lie…..Or they sold it to him.?
Re the question of fan ownership and whether it would be good for Rangers. My thoughts are how bad it would be for Scottish football if some of their current most prominent fans were allowed anywhere near a boardroom?
I don’t think that the cascade of TD’s which greets almost every contribution from Ryan Gosling does this forum any favours at all, and, indeed, detracts in some way from its credibility.
Ryan expresses himself articulately and with unfailing politeness. He is one of the very few Rangers fans who ever engage with this forum. He has a point of view which differs from the majority on here, but all the more reason why his contributions should be welcomed, in my opinion. And for those who disagree with what he has to say,then set out your reasoned case in reply.
Surely we want more engagement from Ibrox fans, not less? Of course we don’t want the return of the Trolls, but clearly Ryan is not a troll, and the mods are well capable of dealing with those who are. I’m sure Big Pink and Trisidium’s aim is to widen the reach and readership of this forum. To do that, we really need to engage more positively with those whose views differ from our own.
Neepheid @ 1010am
Well said !!
RyanGosling 21st November 2015 at 5:32 pm #
“I found it fascinating in many ways and thought it was very good. As you said, a couple of bits where it went a bit green, but other than that I thought it factually well written and really quite impressive. I’d like to see something like that appear in a newspaper, because I really think a lot of Rangers fans simply don’t understand what has happened and will never trust a site such as this, but I don’t see that happening somehow!”
============
If the Rangers saga has shown us anything it is the complete lack of honesty and self serving nature of our media.
They have had the truth spoon fed to them by bampots doing the research they argue they are too poorly resourced to do and perceived self interest wins over properly informing.
It’s their choice though. Get busy living or get busy dying.
It’s a choice we all face every day and the consequences flow from getting it right or wrong.
John Clark 22nd November 2015 at 12:51 am #
“But you and I,…. simply KNOW that Elvis is actually long dead , because he actually died.”——————————–
Very much OT – with respect, John, (I hate that phrase but can’t think of another) you “know” this because, ironically, the mainstream media told you and you believed it or made a conscious choice to accept it (fair enough). We all need to be alert to what is presented to us as fact, be it trivia, sport, law or matters of life and death and come to our own conclusions. If the Rangers story has taught me anything it is to question authority in its various forms. Sorry to be so serious but it’s something that’s been on my mind these past few days.
(I didn’t believe Clyde actually won 5-0 away from home until I saw the highlights, this morning.)
Flocculent
I wonder if someone pinned comments on the Clyde dressing room door that where in the least insulting to teams outside of a certain persons mindset.
Those naughty Aberdeen fans have been to Hampden, again. Well done, guys.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TheClumpany
`neepheid,
Agree entirely. I give a TU to 99% of posters on here. If for no other reason to encourage posters. But especially to Ryan. He is like a lone wolf on here. Must be encouraged.
I know the TUs & TDs are not popular with the mods. But I think they serve a purpose. They give an indication of views.
Anyway on a lighter point. We have the best smileys.
Talking of thumbs up and thumbs down………
I have nothing in principle against allowing B teams entry into the lower leagues, as mentioned recently by Messrs Deila and Warburton, so long as the proposal is not restricted to just Celtic and The Rangers as appears to be the case according to the media. I had hoped that the days of pandering only to the needs and desires of just two clubs had long gone.
Thumbs up for universal entry of B teams by those clubs who want it, thumbs down for restricting entry to Celtic and The Rangers only.
Neepheid a good comment. I have always felt Ryan tries to articulate his points well and is as balanced as most of us. We might not agree everything he says but the same goes for all of us – all a matter of personal opinion. As JJ said if we had a few other Ryan’s on here it would be great.
Still we have a very wide representation across clubs and that is often missed by those in SMSM who want to make it between 2 clubs because that is all they seem to know.
We got a strong Arbroath yesterday but only a strong East Fife until half time. We both need to up our game some to keep in touch with Annan.
Richard Wilson and Tom English twitter notifications will be doing their nut at the moment. I retweeted @theclumpany ‘s tweet, highlighted by Flocculent, of the AFC fans’ banner asking @bbctomenglish and @RichWilBBC if they still thought it was only Celtic fans
Highlander, the thumbs up or down doesn’t provide the obvious third option of “no B teams” as they distort the sport and treat the lower league teams with disrespect, if not contempt.
Tykebhoy
Tom English’s response is very revealing and folk are pulling him up for it.
There are a number of msm journos who have sat on the LNS deception angle and because there was no threat intended when they were originally invited to look at the evidence not supplied to SPL lawyers, their names have not been made public on SFM.
However when you see them write what seems to contradict what you believe they received the case for anonymity decreases with every passing day.
In fact it is becoming hard to separate some of the smsm from their SFA counterparts in terms of who is more to blame for the state of our game.
Apropos of nothing except flagging up continuing incompetence does someone not think to compare strips of all teams in all strip combinations at the start of the season, instead of the Thursday before the match? And that’s not to not acknowledge the Paris gesture.
Good afternoon Ryan, it’s great to see you back jousting with the heavyweights on here, good for you. If I may ask, what do you think as a Rangers fan that the correct way forward is? all I can see is a situation where one group of fans will be disgusted with the outcome.
With regard B teams I think the problem would be that two teams would continue to try and give better incentives to the youth (even if only one currently has the cash to do so). I also remember Craig Brown when he was Scotland manager trying to propose a system to get more youth playing at a good level and saying the same two teams shot the idea down in flames – and today our national team will watch every other “home” nation in France next year???????????
Frankly if the youth excel in current youth team then get them in the first teams quickly and give them experience. However I would like the youth teams to have”European” coaching so they can be relaxed in the ball) instead of treating it like a hot potato – or a ball in a cup draw) and be given a proper diet and education football wise. Then we might have a chance.
The other half chance depends on us getting a 100% change in the way the game is run. Enough said on that over the last year’s – just read all JC’ posts.
Still need an improved Arbroath and East Fife though.
Please answer me this. The idea of colt teams seems to be to allow the bigger teams youngsters to play against the smaller teams seasoned reserves. If the youngsters go to the big clubs B teams where do they think the smaller clubs seasoned pros are going to continue to come from?
A Compromise.
Is there one?
A lot of conflicts which have much worse outcomes than the Rangers saga have came to an end. With reconciliation commissions etc.
What would be the middle ground? What would satisfy each side? ( knowing that it would not be entire).
John Clark 21st November 2015 at 11:36 pm #
—————————————————-
Re the CoS hearings:
The first mention of the two petitions was in the CoS Roll dated Wednesday 18th.
UNOPPOSED MOTIONS
The following motions were granted, unopposed, on Tuesday 17th November
P1039/15 Pet: Mash Holdings Ltd for Judicial Review – Brodies LLP
P989/15 Pet: Michael Ashley for Judicial Review – Brodies LLP
In the Roll dated Thursday 19th November the same two petition numbers were listed to be heard by Lady Wolffe on Tuesday 24th.
However, Friday’s Roll made no mention of the cases.
It could be that the cases due to be heard on Tuesday 24th were brought forward and heard on Friday of last week. What is currently being reported is that petitions related to the issue of new shares were rejected, but that an interim interdict was granted to stop the club removing the voting rights of persons with dual interests in football clubs.
To my way of thinking, the MASH petition would cover resolutions 9 & 10 (the share issue ones) as MASH is the shareholder. The Ashley petition would be in relation to Resolution 11, as it is Ashely who is ultimately the controlling person in MASH Holdings investments in Rangers and Newcastle.
It might be worth a phone call to the CoS to confirm whether or not hearings will be held on Tuesday.
West Ham Fan 21st November 2015 at 1:32 pm #ref T-Shirts. What No Claret and Blue..
=================
I suggest a neutral shirt colour, for example canary yellow, with logos/printing in a range of colours, such as green/red/blue etc
Jimbo at 3;01. That’s a very good question, my first reaction is to knock back any such tree hugging proposal, after all the “Rangers” side of the issue has sought no such compromise as they are the people and no such compromise is required. Then i move, perhaps more constructively, to the “sides” involved. Here are my thoughts on those and what I, a diddy fan and supporter of Scottish fitba, would see as acceptable going forward.1. The “rangers” fans – Apart from any sectarian, racist or other illegal issues I don’t really care what they are prepared to buy in to emotionally and financially. It’s their choice. They can believe and say what they want. I neither can nor have any right to alter that.
2. The rest of Scottish fitba fans – see 1 above.
3. The actual rangers that puts a team out in the SPFL – Get on with it within the rules and spirit of the game.
4. The MSM – Difficult one. They are seriously compromised in the whole palaver. Would it be too much to expect them to look at Scottish Fitba from outside their wee Glasgow (paymaster) bubble for a wee while? If not, see 1.
5. SFA/SPFL – Get on the case now. Act on the clear carve up around the their actions at admin/liquidation, the 5wa and LNS in particular. Until the rest of us believe that the governance of Scottish Fitba is worthy of trust they can forget any thoughts of improving our game. Everything I hear from them now is irrelevant to me until they rectify this shambles.
So the only compromise required is the MSM, the rest (in my opinion) can just get on with it with the exception of the SFA/SPFL who need to change. I suspect that they thought the whole scam they perpetuated around 2012 was a “compromise” to be fair to them. They , like the MSM, are not used to having to explain their actions to hoi poloi.
easyJambo 22nd November 2015 at 3:40 pm
‘……..It might be worth a phone call to the CoS to confirm whether or not hearings will be held on Tuesday.’
_____-
Thank you, eJ. I’ll check it out.
When Celtic revealed their domestic away kit on twitter, my response was along the lines of “I guess a cup tie with Hibs is out of the question then”. While it (the strip) was well received at least by fans on Twitter how an all green kit with white trim/piping was approved I do not know. Killie#s blue and white stripes is considered a colour clash with the green and white hoops so yes the away kit will be used at Rugby Park but where else will it be less of a clash? So yes there does seem to be some incompetence in the acceptance of 2nd strips.
Something happened today that will be of interest to far more football supporters the length and breadth of Scotland than any opinion that any ex-football player might have on ‘title stripping’, or even Mark Warburton’s City trader record – though as a football story, that must be hard to beat
I wonder how many column inches, and photographs, covering the Aberdeen supporters banner on the steps of Hampden, will appear in tomorrows red-tops?
Well done those Dons supporters, but didn’t you know it’s only Celtic supporters that are upset at having been cheated?
Regarding the skewed view portrayed by the media that it’s only one club…
268 pages, 6,689 comments, viewed some 256,510 times. The ‘Ibrox Latest’ thread has been running on WAP (We Are Perth) since February 2012.
St Johnstone fans clearly don’t monitor nor care about governance issues within Scottish football either.
I’m sure this situation also manifests itself on many other diddy club forums. Easily verifiable if any MSM journo cares to do a bit of research.
Probably totally unrealistic, but what if the same sort of statement was made in front of Hampden by a different club’s supporters each Sunday for the rest of the season? They couldn’t possibly ignore that, could they?
smallchange 22nd November 2015 at 8:57 pm #
—————————————————–
Well done to the Saintees for keeping the issues in focus.
The main thread on Hearts JKB forum is currently running at 87,465 comments and 6,745,175 views since Feb 2012. There was a similarly extended thread during the year prior to Administration and a separate thread for debating the OC/NC situation.
The equivalent on Hibs.net has 31,705 comments and 3,735,075 views, also from Feb 2012.
However, I’m sure both will be dwarfed by the several generations of threads on Kerrydale Street and other Celtic forums.
I equally believe that that the amount and quality of comment on Rangers Media and Follow Follow doesn’t match up to the discussions on other clubs’ forums as they continue to exercise a wilful blindness to much of what’s going on.
neepheid 22nd November 2015 at 9:01 pm #
Allyjambo 22nd November 2015 at 8:18 pm #
Something happened today that will be of interest to far more football supporters the length and breadth of Scotland than any opinion that any ex-football player might have on ‘title stripping’, or even Mark Warburton’s City trader record – though as a football story, that must be hard to beat I wonder how many column inches, and photographs, covering the Aberdeen supporters banner on the steps of Hampden, will appear in tomorrows red-tops? Well done those Dons supporters, but didn’t you know it’s only Celtic supporters that are upset at having been cheated?Probably totally unrealistic, but what if the same sort of statement was made in front of Hampden by a different club’s supporters each Sunday for the rest of the season? They couldn’t possibly ignore that, could they?
_________________________________________
Wanna bet? Ignoring is what they do best, it’s what succulent lamb was first served for!
But that would be an excellent way forward, especially if it could be co-ordinated properly. Possibly even better might be if rival supporters groups unite, say Hearts and Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United, Celtic and Partick (perhaps the day before or day after a Glasgow Derby!) to make a joint protest. Not even Celtic fans could possibly get all those tops and scarves to be able to impersonate the diddy club supporters
so there could be no doubt that it’s not only the bhoys who have a grasp of justice and integrity!
OMG!!! What is happening?
Why release strip images on a sunday night?
If the Jags fans could get Kingsley to turn out, that would really generate some interest!
neepheid 22nd November 2015 at 9:01 pm
Probably totally unrealistic, but what if the same sort of statement was made in front of Hampden by a different club’s supporters each Sunday for the rest of the season? They couldn’t possibly ignore that, could they?
—————————————————-
but what if the same sort of statement was made in front of TV cameras in a scottish cup final by both sets of fans at Hampden.They couldn’t possibly ignore that, could they?
On a world wide TV audiance
“If the Jags fans could get Kingsley to turn out, that would really generate some interest!”
A great idea . What if we could arrange for all the Club Mascots to assemble outside Hampden with protest placards . That is a photo opportunity not even the MSM could ignore.