Football is indeed a funny old game.
In a year of pandemic misery our national sport has lifted the spirits of a tired and cynical nation.
Dominic Cummings is leaving number 10, the Brexit deal hasn’t been done, lockdown is on the horizon in the West of Scotland, etc. BUT all we want to do is talk about and relive our team finally doing the business.
For once lady luck came down on our side.
If we been the team to miss our last penalty and had the Serbians scored then Serbian Football would be £10million plus better off and it would be their team heading for Hampden and Wembley.
We’d still be in the doldrums and a Pandemic-accelerated financial basket case.
Scotland is now in their first finals since France 1998 and the nation is smiling and talking positively.
There is no doubt that Steve Clarke’s influence has been huge and we all owe him a real debt especially the bean counters at Hampden who must have been hiding behind their settees hiding their eyes through extra time and into the shoot-out.
Scotland is playing more like a club team with a binding spirit rather than a group of individuals who have just met, are there for the match fee and want to stay in their previous cliques.
The dark side is never far away though.
Overconfidence is always an issue when Scotland wins a few games.
Journalists are now filling pages talking about our 9 game unbeaten run and digging up statistics from the past about what 10 in a row would mean.
The fact that since we got humped 4-0 by Russia we’ve been playing second and third level teams rather than the big boys is somehow never mentioned as a counterbalance.
That we have qualified after 2 penalty shoot outs with a statistically unlikely 10 out of 10 consecutive strikes is put down to practicing penalty taking better than Israel and Serbia.
The two games in the next 4 days might extend our run or not – it doesn’t really matter.
We have the big prize for now and qualified against the odds.
Records will show the much higher ranked Norway and Serbia teams will be at home.
Ok we’ll be at home too but playing at Hampden and Wembalee.
Scottish Football on the park has rediscovered and is redefining teamwork.
Nothing else in our game or set up has changed
(That is a discussion for many another day though).
The success of our team is to a great extent serendipitous.
It’s not something anyone in a suit at Hampden has facilitated or can take credit for outside of hiring Mr Clarke who as Chic was telling us yesterday was the obvious candidate.
The right manager, Steve has gathered a promising group of players and with them negotiated a series of testing challenges.
The stark reality is sometimes the recent games have been painful to watch but progress in baby steps has been noticeable and we genuinely played well against the more fancied Serbia.
Teamwork has been our bedrock.
Teamwork that has been missing for a long time in our international set up and I would argue throughout our game behind the scenes.
Yes we lost a silly goal at the death but Serbia is some 15 places above us in the FIFA rankings and on the night we were by far the better side.
The same Serbian team that had just returned from Oslo having taken apart the much-vaunted Norwegian side.
Steve Clarke has been the catalyst that has facilitated the unforeseen move from Scotland being a team of self-interested individuals into one with the team spirit.
Yes Steve We Can Boogie.
The Scottish team has moved on and the future is brighter on the international stage.
I understand too why many previously ardent Scots fans had distanced themselves from the team as a personal protest against The SFA and their actions over the last few years.
I get that.
But listening to Ryan and Andy and Lyndon and Steve was enough to demonstrate that these guys are playing for the country and their folks back home and not the blazers or the system.
I buy into their passion and that alone is enough to bring even the stubbornest fans back aboard.
When Big Pink asked me to write a blog about the future of this site a couple of weeks back I said I would like to lurk for a few weeks and do some digging.
I have lurked and gone even further back too.
Top line is the SFM blog is not what it was but you all know that.
Here is Some Feedback
Bit by bit; imperceptibly over the months and years the site has entrenched into the home of the anger and the facts against what John Clark has come to call “The Big Lie”.
Its about how the authorities dealt with the financial collapse of Rangers and set the scene for a series of mayhemic events since.
It’s a big Scottish football story and a good insight into how the game managed itself
But other things have been happening since and football has broken out.
One of you said just yesterday
“This site has become a single issue site only becoming alive when something IBROX is current”.
That is partially true and is something to address because it diminishes what this site can achieve.
The number of posters has eroded since the RTC days and the number of clubs represented by posters has also diminished. The site was always a little Celtic minded but open and welcoming of all clubs at the same time.
Some of that goodwill leaked away in this summer’s SPFL pantomime season when self-interest and the quest for 10 became a subconscious position for some of your group.
The level of politeness and the moderation on the site has however remained a huge asset and is almost unique.
This openness has led recently to one serial troll reappearing after several previous monikers and he/she/they have been playing games with several well know posters. The resultant “dancing on a head of a pin” conversations are not so much “Monitoring Scottish Football” as “doing people’s heads in” and this episode has not helped.
That being said I wish salmon were as easy to hook as some on here.
I don’t think there are enough Headline Blogs like this one and in the past I’ve been told many new blogs are simply skimmed politely and ignored as the discussion reverts to the ongoing various fall outs of the consequences of the infamous secret 5 way agreement and all that has ensued following that particular monumental administrative cock up.
I well remember too and liked Stunney and his papers every morning and even though most of what is written in the back pages of the red tops is there to fill space it was still fun to read.
At the same time there has been so much going on that would have benefitted from the forensic discussion that SFM posters brought to the party.
The court reporting by John Clark, EasyJambo and others has been quite dogged, incredibly insightful and shown up the media on many an occasion.
As the subjects under discussion on SFM became narrower I think the site stopped attracting new blood and also accelerated the departure of valued posters.
The diminishing site then became easier for serial disrupters to play with and the ever-decreasing circles metaphor has probably become a reality.
Finally, the adverts on the site that appeared, as if by magic, a few years ago do not deliver enough revenue to justify the inconvenience to readers.
I can’t read the site on my phone without clicking into people trying to sell me stuff I have no interest in.
That’s just a summary of my views as someone who values what this site has brought over the years.
Is it Time for a Reboot at SFM?
I’d say yes and here are a few suggestions to get you thinking and to start a discussion ahead of Big P and his monitors taking some decisions.
Scottish Football needs an independent conscience.
Scottish Football will be the stronger for it.
SFM can be a huge part of that.
Not all fans will want to be part of it because many just want to support their teams and that is fair enough but without a fan voice and without real analysis of what is really going on all that will happen is we’ll get more of the same that took us into the football wilderness.
And without the right changes even Steve Clarke will run out of steam one day when the penalty gods favour some other side.
So here are 5 ideas for SFM to consider
1 A Regular Blog
This doesn’t have to be written for us like in the past– it can just be a weekly news pick that we highlight to set a discussion agenda.
2 The Creation of a John Clark Wall where we hold the facts about the run up to and the creation of his “big lie”.
Set it all our logically and leave it alone for a future date.
It won’t go away because the action created issues for everyone involved.
It should be constructed for all fans with no jelly and ice cream flavouring.
This action would makes SFM the experts and place to go to read what really happened, helps get that monkey off everyone’s back and can be revisited every February 14th or when something turns up.
It might throw more light too in why we are rejoicing about Scotland getting a £10M windfall from qualifying while nobody is talking about the £80M court case costs heading our way as a nation.
All out of a secret 5 way construct back in 2012 and good for nobody whoever you support.
In the meantime SFM should broaden the discussion on other areas like the dropping of the pyramid, the secrecy inherent at the SFA, SPFL and their JRG, Strict Liability, etc. etc. etc.
3 The return of likes for posts that are good or if you agree but with a difference.
I occasionally post on another site which is free to read for anyone but if you want to post or like another post you have to be registered and all likes show the name of the person who has posted.
4 A consideration for different threads at the same time.
5 No ads.
Sponsorship is fine and banner ads for sponsors too but no commercial links that wheech you off to pastures unknown.
Evolution rather than Revolution
I look forward to the debate and to working with Big Pink and his team.
As chair of the largest Scottish group of fans the SFSA (If you’re not a member please join) I know that the only certainty is that fans will never agree about everything or sometimes even anything.
The tribal and competitive nature of football sets us against each other and causes divisions and disagreements that can become entrenched.
Some would say that is part of the fun of it all.
That being said we do generally agree and care deeply about the following.
We want vision, leadership and most of all fairness and transparency.
All alien words in our game as is.
OK Scotland has qualified for a major championship but our game is still locked in a self-interest framed self-imposed wrestling hold and the fact is that escape will never happen without change.
SFM and SFSA can both be part of that.
Been on our minds for some time, but I think there is a case for us to change with the times whilst retaining the core message of integrity for the sport and rebuttal of media untruths.
I think the multi-thread idea that Andy brings to the table is something we have considered before, but should consider again. The ads are increasingly annoying folk also, but as they only bring in around about £500 a year it is arguable that we could do without.
Everything up for grabs I think as our main concern has always been retaining that cross-party camaraderie that grew up with RTC, and was the reason myself and Tom and a few others took up the cudgels.
All things have a sell-by date – and SFM will undoubtedly be among them. I don't think that time needs to be now, and repositioning ourselves is the way to ensuring that its not.
Ideas and contributions are welcome. My thoughts initially;
Change to a multithreaded bulletin board
Regular articles published (members will have the right to open new discussion threads)
Trolls will have to be weeded out and humoured a lot less than they are currently.
Space for club-specific chat news and articles
Dispose of ads
That's for now 🙂
4 A consideration for different threads at the same time.
A forum rather than a blog with comments would always have been a better format for a site like this.
That way people can join in with threads / topics they are interested in, which makes things easier to keep on topic for moderators. Having several disparate conversations going on at the same time in the same thread does not lead to easy reading sometimes.
This format makes it easier for people to disrupt the whole site, rather than just individual threads.
Forums also allow the "ignore function", so if there is anyone members just find annoying they can put them on ignore and not even see their posts. Clearly you can do that already but some folk seem to struggle with the concept.
Change is good.
The site probably does need re-energised and refocused.
The site seemed to take a noticeable dip after the March lockdown, IMO.
For my tuppence worth, I'd generally agree with the above suggestions.
As SFM followed on from RTC, '2012' won't go away – but agreed, there may be a better way of dealing with these legacy issues on SFM.
A couple of general observations;
– nothing has changed WRT the SMSM.
Initially, SFM was 'asking questions the Scottish media won't ask' and then the tag line became 'there's a lot of ignorance out there'. I don't think that has changed over the years – but the SMSM influence has perhaps dropped with it declining circulation / ratings / levels of trust, (especially with the BBC).
SFM still has the opportunity to provide the information – and opinions/debate – not available elsewhere.
The SFM court reporting is the prime example of where this site provides a valuable source of information, IMO.
&
– nothing has changed WRT the SFA.
The SFA has not changed or improved – one iota – in terms of communicating with supporters, or seeking their feedback over the last 8 years in particular, IMO.
If the SFA was restructured it 'could' also address some of the lingering bad feeling in the game, since 2012?
But, the SFA continues to evade the levels of inspection and criticism it thoroughly deserves – publicly.
Clarke and the players achieved an unexpected – but highly welcomed – qualification DESPITE the SFA, IMO.
[Just observations: don't know the answers!
]
It's a timely contribution on a personal level as I have for some time been considering leaving the monitor and this latest blog post has concentrated my thinking somewhat. I still watch Scottish football on occasion when broadcast but contribute little in financial terms. My grandchildren are lost to the game (eight and five years old) as there is no enthusiasm or effort to cajole them one way or another. A bitter old man then ? Perhaps, but I refuse to be conned or patronised by a cheating cabal of directors and reporters who would rather I know my place. I miss the excitement of matchday and the camaraderie of attendance but that has been robbed of me by the events of the last eight years. It is perhaps ironic that a sense of loyalty to the site and it's owners is the only thing that keeps me from ahem.. walking away. Changing the site composition may well be the only way to ensure it's future but there are many such sites already available, if this monitor is perceived as a single issue site then that is because it is a single issue of import that is not highlighted sufficiently elsewhere. By all means change the site in order to try and broaden it's appeal but don’t hide 2012 away in the back of the display cabinet as if embarrassed by coming 3rd in the darts and doms of the local hostelry in 1974.I am fatigued and dissappointed at the lack of impact the monitor has made at changing the game for good following 2012.There appear to be no answers to the arrogant stance of the SFA and the clubs in dealing with questions the authorities find uncomfortable. If the The Scottish Football Supporters Association has had some success or even publicly called out the governance in Scotland on matters concerning 'Ibrox' then perhaps I would take that organisation more seriously. In terms of moving on then all I can say is that I did move on, in 2012.
There is no mystery as to why the 2012 saga, Sevco and the demise of the previous club playing out of Ibrox is discussed all the time.
It is because one regular contributor – and presumably financial supporter of the site – posts about it 2 or 3 times a day.
Would be extremely harsh in my opinion to start removing posts of truth and value simply because of their topic, but I think a less 2012-centric focus would do the site a power of good – however it it best achieved. There are important recent issues before us that require the forensic eye SFM has offered for many years.
Don't think there would be any chance of forgetting the 2012 car crash brian_d84.
I think the sentiment in the blog – with which I largely agree – is that the same people who created that car crash are going about their business today with very little prevent a repeat. We need to try to raise a platform where everyone can see what is going on in the game. We may never succeed in changing it by force of argument, but knowledge is power after all, and we are in a position to ensure that people are im possession of knowledge – or alternative interpretations if you like.
There are many unchallengeable 'truths' – myths created by the authorities and dispensed daily by the media – that need to be challenged.
Just as a for instance: our referees are excellent, and incorruptible.
Single club fanbases have little leverage in that argument. I'd wager that a cross party fan association would have more success in making that challenge if it became clear that trust in referees was not confined to fans of the club who lost out last weekend because of the latest inexplicable piece of nonsense.
2012, last season early doors shutdown, gangsters running clubs (not just Rangers btw). Its all connected. So I come to this with the premise that cross party consensus in these matters is key.
PS: You may have noticed that the ads are gone, and the TU/TD thing is back 🙂
I’m just glad to see everything up for discussion. The site was needing tweaked.
@ScottishFA
announce that Compliance Officer Clare Whyte will leave her role with the association in early 2021.
……………
No one ever lasts long in that job. Wonder if the sleepless nights have a part in it.
Amazon are doing a great line in mirrors just now,buy one look, reflect.
Thumbs are back
Clare Whyte, the Compliance Officer at the SFA is offski. I wonder why?
On another site Auldheid reckons the 5 way agreement had made her job untenable.
Here's my tuppence worth:
If Clare Whyte was undermined by referees like Beaton that raises an interesting scenario. Both are employed by the SFA. It is the compliance officer’s role surely to be above and beyond the persuasion of the refereeing dept.? If she was not able to dig her heels in one would expect the employer (SFA) to protect her. Otherwise why have a compliance officer at all?
If she was not able to do her job because of the 5 way agreement that’s a different thing altogether. Now it’s the employer (SFA) above her which is at fault. There is no easy way out of this. Except it would be for me. Expose it! To the media – in England if necessary – inform EUFA. Tell them to stuff their non disclosure agreements. Go on sue me! Let it come out in the courts. Be principled.
Thinking back, the title of Scottish Football Monitor Blog (agreed after views were sought) was, if I remember correctly, intended to broaden discussion from the old Rangers financial woes/crimes onto the wider Scottish Football 'arena'.
The appeal for me, therefore, was that a poster could comment on a whole range of topics (although I am a lifelong CFC supporter, the 'narrowness' of parochial blogs has never appealed to me – so I avoid them and only post on here, which I find is more open minded and much less agenda driven).
Any criticism I've had has in the main (!) been objective, fair and constructive as well as being part of my 'learning curve' – particularly on legal.financial matters.
The TU/TD facility has served as a useful 'gauge' on how my opinions were viewed by the community at large – without individuals having to respond through posting comments – so I'm glad ti see this feature's reappearance.
The main focus, however, must continue to be on John Clark's Indefatigability Wall ( he, thankfully, never 'lets up')- built to expose the 'Big Lie'!
I have posted less frequently precisely because I tend to focus on Res12 matters which is generally seen via a green prism.
However what Res12 has done is to draw attention to the 5 Way Agreement and how it's toxicity continues to affect governance integrity to date, and that includes the role of the compliance officers McGlennan in limiting the period of the non compliance charges and now Claire Whyte for not responding to information supplied seeking clarification and compromising her personal integrity in the process.
The 5 Way Agreement and its consequences are an insult to the integrity of Scottish football and intelligence of football supporters.
Res12 was always about SFA reform and the Res12 process since 2013 demonstrates just how much integrity needs to be restored.
There will be a Celtic AGM and Res12 will be on the agenda. Not in Q&A but in AGM report itself.
Hopefully that will free the 5 Way Agreement from the shackles of the green handcuffs and enable The SFSA to take a clear non partisan view that allows the issue of SFA governance to become one that all supporters can get behind no matter whom they support because the lack of unbiased governance put Rangers into liquidation and Celtic between a rock and a hard place..
There is a lesson learning aspect for Celtic supporters iro accountability of The Celtic Board that is best taken forward on Celtic blogs post AGM, but given it's about accountability and how to get it, the lessons will apply to more clubs than Celtic, so seepage here will do no harm.
I'd prefer Moving Forward to Moving On to be honest. The 5 Way is unfinished business, it's consequences are still with us and it is something the SFA need monitoring on.
On a separate area for the Big Lie issue dont forget the Res12 Archive that will be updated when Celtic AGM announced or after the AGM (I only know preparations are underway, not when or how it will be conducted) that sets out events since 2013 up until the summer and would be a place for Trumpian deniers to claim how they won the election on made up legal grounds and like Trumpians, no amount of evidence to the contrary will lead to a change of mind.
This year supporters kept their clubs alive based on emotions, next year those emotions will have more to consider before providing unconditional support.
SFM has a moving forward role to play there along with addressing the other issues that rob our game of the joy that had most supporters boogieing last Thursday.
Bring the joy back.
I believe everyone would like more posters from other clubs to post. They just don't.Some may look in and leave a token one comment now and again, some may not want to leave the bosom of their own fan sites were you just have to say the right couple of words to get the thumbs up or gold stars,and some may want to say something on a topic but may feel it will be taken apart bit by bit until the point the poster may feel feck doing that again.Yes a little bit of change can be a good thing,but you need a variety of different supporters willing to say something for change to be effective. With so many fans now in lockdown the chance to engage should be more. Well you can't go down the pup and talk about things now can you
I left about three months ago for my own reasons after posting for many years. I could certainly be tempted back though and I like the idea of a multi thread forum. I do miss the generally respectful nature of the chat on here. There are some decent fans forums out there but they have become far too political and intolerant, and some of them basically define your suitability to be accepted based on your views on the Scottish Independence debate. If your view is not the same as that of the ruling clique, then you are an automatic bad guy. As someone who has attended Celtic games since the 1970's I find that quite a depressing scenario, but it's where we are. I certainly hope that SFM never allows itself to become a politically extreme forum.
According to a report in the Glasgow Evening Times, penned by Matthew Lindsay, the SFA should look at bringing in a "tough character with a police (my bold) background" to replace their outgoing compliance officer Clare Whyte.
This quote is attributed to Graham (Mr?) Bean (the English FA's first compliance officer).
Jings, crivvens and help ma boab – does he realise the sectarian stooshie that could cause up here (only amongst the paranoid you understand)?
I said last week that I’d no longer post in what is now being acknowledged by some as a 2012 bubble of sorts. However, I note the new blog topic Moving On Time?, the subsequent discussion and thought I’d throw in my tuppence worth.
ps. Well Done Scotland !!
bect67 16th November 2020 at 23:10
According to a report in the Glasgow Evening Times, penned by Matthew Lindsay, the SFA should look at bringing in a “tough character with a police (my bold) background” to replace their outgoing compliance officer Clare Whyte.
…………………..
As long as he does not sing;-)
We should hear about the singing constable tomorrow.
Auldheid 16th November 2020 at 16:00
"Moving forward as opposed to moving on"
As always, Auldheid hitting the nail on the head.
The Res 12 fight is perhaps one of the best chances we have to resolve the issues of the past.
I, for one, do not think it is something that is viewed through a green prism. However, it is an issue where Celtic, as a club, should have taken a much stronger lead. But hats of to Auldheid and his guys efforts and they will always have my support and any update is greatly welcomed.
The fight to expose the Big Lie should go on.
However, when the number of penalty awards for the club for Ibrox generate more posts than Scotland qualifying for a major final then SFM is losing its way.
Plenty other issues to be discussed regards Scottish Football such as where do we stand on teams like Albion Rovers now changing their tune and screaming out for reconstruction.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/albion-rovers-gaffers-birthday-relief-22198675
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/albion-rovers-covid-crisis-could-23009817
A multi subject forum seems to be the way forward and attract back and gain new members who do not always want to get bogged down by every issue related to Ibrox, regardless of how much fun that can be at times.
My tuppence-worth. I look in most days and read every post but can find the focus on all things Ibrox a little tedious at times. Over the past few years it’s obvious that the number of posters has decreased and I think the blog is poorer for it. I also feel a multi-thread format could be the way to go.
SFM can, at times, be a difficult place to engage with if you stray from the majority view. There is certainly no abuse (with a capital A) from other posters and that is to everyone’s credit but alternative views (not alternative facts) can be difficult to get across. I would keep the thumbs up but do away with the thumbs down. A small change but something that would make a big difference, I think.
On the whole SFM was started for the right reasons, has a number of excellent and informative posters and is run by people who obviously care about the game in Scotland. I appreciate all their hard work and effort. There isn’t too much wrong with the site and period of self reflection can only improve things.
Not posted in ages, only because my laptop wasn't allowing me to log in due to security warnings about this site – suddenly it's okay! Didn't have much to say anyway, though I continued to read every day. Came across from RTC days and only ever posted both there and here on the subject of fairness.
Like everyone else (I think), I am concerned about the falling number of posters which leads to this forum being very much an echo chamber for the small group of posters who still care about fairness. Of course, I would like the site to attract new viewers/posters, but would NOT like us to gain such viewers/posters if they do not care about what we do. It's okay for RC (and his other names) to suggest our focus on 2012 is keeping new people away as that suits his agenda of shutting us up, but if we have to hide our intention of making others aware of the corruption and the Big lie, then I, personally, would say NO, I'm not prepared to do that.
It is the lack of new information and/or a new strategy for utilising the information that is the problem here, NOT the passion of those of us who want to expose the corruption that led to the Big Lie. If new viewers/posters could be attracted who could provide a fraction of what RTC could, or propose a new strategy for getting the information we have into the public eye, I would welcome them with open arms, but I'm not willing to accept fans of any club who want to come on and talk about other aspects of football – whether that's more up-to-date examples of corruption/incompetence on the part of the authorities/our clubs or just general football chat – while they ignore the truth of the past. Sorry, RC (and your other names), you don't get the right to suggest what we should talk about when we don't see you acknowledging the truth of liquidation, EBTs etc. You won't admit to that truth and won't change our minds, so why post here at all?
I applaud Auldheid and everyone else on here who continue to try to find a way to get the issues that matter discussed publicly, but it becomes clearer with each passing year that the authorities (Govt, Press, SFA, SPFL, our clubs) are circling the wagons more and more effectively to smother any debate about the incompetency, corruption and lies within our structures, be that the malicious court cases; refereeing standards; attitude to football and football fans; power of the Big 2 clubs etc.
IMO, this forum DOES talk about these issues, but just as with the 2012 issues, there seems to be no way to force any of them to be addressed. That being the case, why would SFM change specifically to attract people who might want to talk about those things if they themselves don't add value to what matters i.e. finding a way to have ALL of them publicly discussed honestly, accurately and without bias/favour.
Phils latest
https://philmacgiollabhain.ie/2020/11/17/hector-returns-to-ibrox/
I haven't posted in a while but sometimes life just gets in the way and work and other priorities like sitting in the hot tub when the sun is shining. As it's now heading into winter one of those 3 reasons has become redundant and so it is I find myself back bumping my gums at football back in my homeland. As C1 has just posted Phil's latest I have to question why if the content is accurate was a Euro licence given to a club* with overdue payables. I would also ask if their newest shareholder in the far East was 100% aware of the financial state of play before committing 5m to the cause. I await the annual accounts like a 5 year old waiting for Santa to arrive as it will answer more than a few questions. It shall also be interesting to see the long awaited outcome of Ashley's court case which seems to be back in play now. Should an administration event occur I can see the Covid card being played when it comes to the 15 point reduction . We should be ready to remind them that this was a club* with a going concern warning in the last accounts long before any shut down restricted income.
Cluster One 17th November 2020 at 20:56
That is interesting, given the circumstances it would not be that surprising for HMRC to allow time to pay.
I would however be interested in what actual type of tax it was. If for example it is VAT and given the large season ticket sales that would not be surprising, it would be an example of spending other people's money again. VAT on sales is money that the business collects on behalf of the Government and is never their own.
It would also be interesting to know when the tax was due and if it should have had knock-on effects on other parts of the business, for example licences when social taxes were unpaid.
Cluster One 17th November 2020 at 20:56
Homunculus 17th November 2020 at 21:21
As discussed, it really depends on what tax is being discussed.
Also Phil Mac says ‘around the time of the first lockdown, owed a substantial seven figure sum to HMRC’. Was this before or after lockdown? What range of timescales are we talking about?
I am sure plenty of businesses (and other football clubs) will have found themselves in the same boat ‘around the time of the first lockdown’
Here is an extract from a well known Tax Law firm regards arrangements with Hector.
My guess is everyone and their uncle is being given a degree of leeway regards monies owed.
Time will tell if it is more ‘clutching at straws’ or a real ‘developing story’.
wottpi @10.34
“My guess is everyone and their uncle is being given a degree of leeway regards monies owed”
Including historical and serial defaulters?
Just seen this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
bect67 18th November 2020 at 10:41
The Rangers International Football Club Plc incorporated in November 2012, while having a few going concern warnings in their accounts, has no known record of being historical or serial defaulters in their 8 years of operation.
It is either the same club/company or it isn’t.
If you believe in the Big Lie you can’t have it both ways and pick and choose which elements fit an agenda, I’m afraid.
I believe the only ‘dodgy’ link to the old club is Dave King, who resigned his directorship and currently only appears to be a cold shouldered shareholder of RIFC Plc. I am not aware of any of the other investors/directors having caused HMRC any particular problems in the past.
I am in full agreement with Moving Forward (moving on) is a different issue and welcome the changes that have taken place and look forward to other changes that will come in time as with my football club when possible im a supporter of SFM so with the changes will their be any financial burden on the SFM
(pity we cant just have a share issue)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
…………..
How can you move forward when the ripples of 2012 can still be felt on this day.
Ignore the The parent company that controlled the club was liquidated in October 2012.
That they never ever tell you the name of.
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 13:53
More LIES from our national broadcaster regarding 2012.
The parent company of the 1872 club was Murray International Holdings, now dissolved: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC192523
Craig Whyte had his own parent company: Wavetower Ltd which changed its name to The Rangers FC Group Ltd.
The NEW club now has a parent company Rangers International.
The club that was liquidated in 2012 was NOT A PARENT COMPANY.
Anyone who thinks we should move on from 2012 when lies like that are in circulation is happy to accept being lied to. Not me.
nawlite 18th November 2020 at 12:21
Have you seen this?
………………
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-administrators-reach-settlement-police-19302654
……….
Demoted.
How can anyone move on with reporting like this?
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 13:53
brian_d84 18th November 2020 at 14:24
—————————————————————————–
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
I have emailed BBC news and pointed out that the parent company at the time was Wavetower now known as The Rangers Fc Group and it is still a going concern. Hopefully they will make some attempt at correction.
wottpi
“It is either the same club or it isn’t”
What will it be in the eyes of the MSM, TRFC apologists, deniers and those of the WATP persuasion in 2022? Which way will the wind blow then I wonder? When are debts debts?!
For the record m’lord – I don’t have an agenda ( and though I guess that you didn’t necessarily imply that I had)
Finally, to help me fully understand your post @ 12.22, may I respectfully ask you to clarify your own ‘stance’ on the ‘Big Lie’ (I presume you do believe in it).
Anyone who still believes and promulgates the Big Lie is either stupid; biased; needs the money derived from "The Old Firm"….or all three!! That is why I was so vehement in my first post above. IMO it isn't worth attracting new people even if they want to discuss new iterations of incompetence, bias, greed etc UNLESS they buy into our position on the issues from 2012.
Reasonable Chap etc haven't earned the right to steer (!) or engage in debate on any new issues if they either can't understand or refuse to see the truth of the cheating and liquidation. BP and others may disagree of course.
https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/sport/football/malky-mackay-quits-scottish-fa-19304653
Malky Mackay quits as Scottish FA performance director as he explains decision to leave Hampden.
………………..
Another one bites the dust.
For a feelgood factor on the pitch they are not half doing a walk away behind the doors.
I understand Nawlite's annoyance with the Trumpian stance taken by some contributors. There are facts and these facts are indisputably true (see facts). Alternative facts are by their nomenclature alternative to the truth i.e. fiction. I believe we have to be as open and inviting as possible a forum ( I think the trending description for that is .woke ?) Education is important and should blog posters not accept that the truth will set them free then that is an issue for them. I quite enjoy watching the discomfiture and self denial of such posters struggling with 'who played Brechin' or 'holding company' ,although it can drag on a little. The unfortunate fallout of 2012 is a further entrenchment of ideology. I don't care if current Rangers supporters are adamant they are the same club just please stop asking the rest of us to subscribe to your fantasy. All fans should come aboard , discuss refereeing and how to improve it, discuss the performance of the national team, discuss the way the way the sun revolves around the earth which is flat by the way, but be prepared to be schooled. This is and always has been an open forum that doesn’t suffer fools gladly..Facts are chiels, thanks to Rabbie and latterly John Clark for pointing this out. In short this is a great forum and open to discussing almost anything within reason . The majority posting are erudite, humorous and for the most part tolerant. I hope it stays that way.
In te spirit of coming together , we could maybe arrange a joint 150 year commemoration for RFC and Third Lanark in 2022 . Doesn't matter that they died in between – celebrating their birth .
gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 19:04
I think people sometimes mix fact up with opinion.
The bottom line is that, as you say, some things are a matter of fact. People can sometimes form different opinions based on those facts. What one can't do is change the facts to suit the opinion, or agenda.
To draw on an earlier discussion Rangers' holding company was Wavetower Ltd, which was formed in September 2010 and changed it's name to The Rangers FC Group Limited in May 2012. From Memory Wavetower also had a holding company, which was Liberty Capital, owned by Craig Whyte.
Any opinion that it was Rangers' holding company which went into administration and is now being liquidated is simply not based on the facts. It is an opinion based on unfounded claims.
Came on expecting all the doom and gloom for another scotland defeat, and what do i get nothing.
Well some expect to come on when scotland win and see rainbows.
you just can’t please everyone;-)
Nawlite
It’s okay for RC (and his other names) to suggest our focus on 2012 is keeping new people away as that suits his agenda of shutting us up, but if we have to hide our intention of making others aware of the corruption and the Big lie, then I, personally, would say NO, I’m not prepared to do that.
Reasonable Chap etc haven’t earned the right to steer (!) or engage in debate on any new issues if they either can’t understand or refuse to see the truth of the cheating and liquidation. BP and others may disagree of course.
======%%%======
I’d ask nawlite if he actually noticed that the blog post (above), Big Pink and other posters shared my view regards the effects you mention of sustained focus on 2012. For all me being called a troll, James Traynor or some kind of Bot., it seems as though my thoughts were considered accurate by the heid yins, however difficult that might be to stomach. I don’t expect your thanks but don’t be wilfully blind and just selectively call me out, the easy target.
The accusations of being some kind of PR plant over the past few months were laughable. There is a saying something along the lines of …When your enemy are making a mistake let them get on with it… and that IMO is exactly how SFM would be seen in recent times by any opposition PR assessment.
What got me involved was Omnishambles I (2020). When Fairness and Integrity were put to the side, forgotten about, shelved. Just as scrutiny for the governing body involved wasn’t required or much discussed. Nothing to see, I’m all right Jack. Self-interest and the economic imperative (for most) won the day.
Now the focus on Integrity returns. Self-interest and the economic imperative are back oot the windae. Auldheid said that Res12 is about the SFA, I strongly disagree and would ask for some honest reflection. The collective effort primarily see things through the same colour of prism as SFM wears. If that collective effort won their case at some stage on the legal journey, then fair enough, but they haven’t and the outlook is bleak.
The latest res12 issue for the Celtic AGM is at least current. But what happens when it is voted down in what I read somewhere is being called by the PLC, a ‘Final Vote‘ on the matter?
You would have all footballing authorities, all football clubs, the legal system, the media saying one thing. You’d have exhausted legal possibilities. Yet this truth doesn’t apply on here or is even considered. Counter opinion is fine but you can’t credibly claim to own the truth. It is an opinion, an interpretaion that failed at the official level.
Moving forward will be complicated. There is an existential threat to clubs coming down the road. (I note the focus/speculation is on one clubs numbers).
Another share issue over ibrox way. Will they have time for just one more before christmas?
What got me involved was Omnishambles I (2020). When Fairness and Integrity were put to the side, forgotten about, shelved.
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 08:17
……………
What fairness and integrity was put to the side?
To state the obvious…
for those who have a preference for SFM to be 'less focused' if you like on 2012, in practise it could be challenging, IMO.
Just yesterday we had a Phil story alleging some HMRC difficulties at Ibrox.
This is whilst RIFC is very deliberately delaying the issuance of its '19/'20 Accounts, [or failing to secure sign-off by the Auditor Campbell Dallas.]
HMRC issues [alleged] and the delay of accounts [deliberate] sounds rather familar.
I have hesitated to post about these 2 RIFC stories as I'm now conscious that this site has a need to develop.
But, is it not fair to say that the most interesting / controversial stories for debate will continue to emanate from Ibrox – if only as a result of its financial uncertainty?
Using discussion threads for the site would indeed give readers a choice, but I'd expect that most activity would revolve around RFC/TRFC related threads?
To counterbalance: threads could give the opportunity for more focus on other areas e.g. the SFA as an organisation – and its personnel.
The SMSM simply doesn't ask questions of the SFA and most supporters probably aren't aware just how dysfunctional and inept it is as our governance body.
Just as RTC/SFM aimed to fill a knowledge gap amongst supporters about RFC/TRFC, SFM could do likewise with regard to the SFA?
gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 15:13
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-54987144
I have emailed BBC news and pointed out that the parent company at the time was Wavetower now known as The Rangers Fc Group and it is still a going concern. Hopefully they will make some attempt at correction.
———————————————————————————————–
Me too, via their complaints procedures
Reasonable Chap
For the avoidance of doubt, I have never experienced a moment of convergence with any of your thoughts.
Although I agree you are no PR plant. Just a troll.
Cluster One 18th November 2020 at 22:18
Yes , sir , we can boogie . It's the football that's the problem .
Let the whitabootery begin .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55004563
JC and Scotland's open Shame( The Big Lie ) is one of the main reasons I visit this blog. Change is most welcome but the continuing lie should always take main stage imo. This level of cheating with no punishment mocks every football fan in this country. To lose an EBT verdict at a SC (which confirmed that these payments were basically wages and these were not disclosed to SFA which meant roughly 55 players were registered illegally and the SFA to this day have not addressed this verdict in any way is absolutely disgraceful..More worrying is WHY they have not approached this level of cheating. Only in Scotland and only for one team. As mentioned at beginning thanks to John Clark and this blog.
Never forget the damage this club caused our game and still are imo.
Shame on our country the SFA and smsm.
It's plain that whatever cosmetics may change on SFM, the fundamentals will remain the same. An echo chamber that calls counter opinion trolling, unless it comes from Easyjambo, then it is politely ignored.
I'll leave you to it after one last suggestion…..A name change.
One that more accurately reflects activity and focus. One that is more truthful.
Rangers Football Monitor (RFM) or maybe Sevco Football Monitor would go down better and enable you to stay with 'SFM'.
Seriously off topic (I know!), but I must try 'moving forward' with this by sharing with the community-
I ordered a ppv pass from Hibs for Saturdays upcoming game and the £15 was deducted from my account by said Hibs. So far – so good!
When I went in earlier today to check when coverage started (properly signing in with my username and password), I was informed on screen that I had not purchased a ticket after all!
After fruitless phone calls and e-mails (the Hibs streamline service e-mail address is 'undeliverable to' (?) – although clearly in their T & C).
An online enquiry has not yielded any results either!
At least that's off my chest…
… and while I'm at it, since I'm not in the best humour …
RC – jist beat it!
RC
There you go again ?
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 20:08
Usually I just ignore you but your solution of " a name change" has me crying with laughter , I've lost count of how many times you have changed your name as a solution to your forum issues and am at pains to point out that it has been less than successful . What was that definition of insanity again ? (rhetorical question)
reasonablechap 19th November 2020 at 20:08
All you have to do is admit that you feel guilty that you and other RFC fans stood by and let your club die , and that you would like folk to view the new club to which you transferred your allegiance as the same as the one that died . I'll miss the TD now it's been restored .
Cluster One 19th November 2020 at 10:16
'..Another share issue over ibrox way.]
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Yes, Cluster One, and a meaningless kind of one, on 17 November: a lousy 5,044,960 @2p, bringing in a measly £100,899 in cash. (Maybe there's a wee bill to be paid for work done for the successful planning application, about which I read this morning in Halliday's 'report' in the 'Scotsman'
No mention of the name of the purchaser, but probably no one 'new'. Maybe Gibson?
Number of shares now in issue is 322 ,196, 912.
John Clark 19th November 2020 at 22:10
Where are you getting your figures from JC.
Have they not been using 20p as the selling price.
@JC
I think the sum raised is 1m rather than 100k however it is noticeable that money is being raised via shares rather than loans possibly for accounting reasons or maybe because there is nothing left to offer as security. The charges from Close are still valid which indicates that loan has yet to be repaid . I do have to acknowledge that they have dug deep to keep SS Sevco afloat however they have continued to spend recklessly with €8m on Roofe and Itten in August . Spending money on players instead of paying taxes is a dangerous game and should the gamble not pay off then our Blazers are complicit for not introducing FFP into our game. The irony of ironies would be failing to get a euro licence for breaching the limits set by uefa which they must be sailing very close to.
valentinesclown 19th November 2020 at 18:32
Never forget the damage this club caused our game and still are imo.
…………….
I read something the other day.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19904760
SPL has coped with loss of Rangers, says Neil Doncaster.
When you add that to the.
Spiers on Sport: Regan admits to an Armageddon no-show.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/13140632.spiers-on-sport-regan-admits-to-an-armageddon-no-show/
……..
You have to wonder if Doncaster and Regan ever look back and wonder was all the panic and rule bending worth it? at the time was their ears being bent so much they paniced themselves into believing it was all about the rangers.
John Clark 19th November 2020 at 22:10
How was the break;-)
Was wondering how many share issues they have had since 2012 and how much they have raised?
normanbatesmumfc 19th November 2020 at 12:03
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2
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gunnerb 18th November 2020 at 15:13
……..
Also. Waiting on reply
@C1
these are the issues after the initial offer in Dec 2012
they have gone from 65m shares to 327m at varying rates ,the majority of which in the last few years at 20p each.
At this rate of printing the will be on course to take the current World record for creating worthless paper away from Robert Mugabe.
17 November 2020
1 November 2020
30 September 2020
13 November 2019
24 September 2019
5 August 2019
28 June 2019
3 October 2018
Appointment of King 18 May 2015
18 September 2014
1 July 2014
Homunculus 19th November 2020 at 22:43
'..Have they not been using 20p as the selling price.'
Timtim 19th November 2020 at 22:46
'..I think the sum raised is 1m rather than 100k '
"""""""""""
My deepest apologies to all and sundry for my misreading of 0.2 Never been a great figures man!
The upside is that even more dire must be the ready cash situation of the cuckoo club!
But I'm still a wee bit embarrassed
@bect67
A few weeks ago I bought my grandson a ppv pass (not at Hibs) when he was unwell and unable to get out. He was also subsequently unable to gain access by the logging in method. When you signed up and paid you should have received an email confirmation with a link – clicking on that link should get you access. That worked for us anyway!
Thanks Gaslamp, I'll try that.
Timtim 19th November 2020 at 23:34
4 last year. One more can get squeezed in before christmas this year maybe.
From my fading memory the last AGM approved the right for up to 100m new shares to be issued , not sure where we are right now but I think they can still issue a few more and raise around 6m when needed. Not long to go before the December transfer market opens and Juventus , PSG and Barcelona can ready their multi million bids for Alfredo. According to Phil MacG the accounts have been extended to June so that stay of execution may tempt them to gamble even more.
The total number of shares is reported on the Companies House SH01 form as 327,241,872 whereas it should be 327,241,873. They still can't add. I'm guessing that the largest, if not sole, contributor to this latest purchase is Julian Wolhardt using East Harvest Ltd as the vehicle.
Yes, Phil suggesting that the Accounts filing submission has been extended by 6 months to June.
We were already aware that an extension was taken to 31st March, as per Companies House link below.
This link is still quoting a “Key Filing Date’ of 31/03/21.
Currently due to covid, a plc has access to a 3 month extension, so for RIFC it can move from 31/12/20 to 31/03/21.
But, I’m not seeing anything about a 6 month extension being available for a plc .
[A 6 month extension is only available for private company and LLP accounts, as per Companies House.]
Am I missing something?
Agreed though: a post-season, filing date in June would be much preferred at Ibrox.
===
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC437060/more
Has there been any further movement in the planning application for the Albion car park housing complex? It's been some time since it was lodged and I remember at the time the surprise at such a move given Close Bros outstanding charge.
Not so much Scottish football related, but of interest to those who have a penchant for the truth when it comes the fate of a certain football club liquidated in 2012.
In a nutshell: former Chelsea owner Ken Bates was a real scallywag. In the early 90s Chelsea were mired in debt and Bates did the dishonourable thing, a switcheroo to a newco before liquidating the original 1905 incorporated club – renaming it CFAC Ltd before the deed was done (sounds familiar eh?). Club dissolved in 1992.
Whilst the new Chelsea have become one of europe’s leading teams, since 1992 the old club lay buried 6 feet under, formally dissolved – deceased – no more (a fate that will soon befall Rangers 1872, once the liquidators have completed their work).
Until a few months ago….
6th May 2020 to be precise. “We consent to an order being made in the terms of the above draft restoring the name of CFAC Ltd to the Register of Companies.” Now according to Companies House, company no. 00084348 – incorporated in 1905 – is “active”.
Active? It seems resurrection exists!
So many questions.
If after almost 30 YEARS a club can return from the dead, would a similar opportunity exist – in perpetuity it seems – for Rangers 1872 to return from the grave? Did Dave King not refer to doing something similar a year or two ago?
If in Chelsea’s case, a group of fans acquire the 1905 club and apply to join the FA – could they claim, in the eyes of the law, continuity with the original club that was bumped off by the awful Bates in 1992?
What possible purpose could this resurrection serve? Sevco’s eyes will be widened by this i have no doubt. Nothing would surprise me in this saga.
Sevco accounts are out. I'm sure more learned analysts that I will comment in due course, but headline figure for me: Operating loss for the year increases by a massive 37% up to £15.9 million.
And the authorities will do nothing.
Before getting into Notes and numbers;
Auditor is in Renfrew: Azets Audit Services.
Never heard of them.
Campbell Dallas wouldn't play ball then…?
If anybody wants a read –
https://www.rangers.co.uk/article/annual-report-and-accounts-and-notice-of-2020-agm/1RoXtgfv66hyiAbwnX8Eff
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18888141.rangers-post-15-9million-loss-ibrox-revenue-player-costs-rise-last-financial-year/?ref=twtrec
……………
A bit of a loss.
Always bad news late on a Friday night with this lot.
Note 28
And for the second year, the RIFC Notes fail to disclose an estimate – or a range of estimates – relating to the SDI 'Contingent Liability';
"The Company has dealt with its estimated liabilities… when calculating its accruals."
Due to the materiality of the expected claim from SDI, that is rather misleading, to put it mildly, IMO.