Good Morning,
In the last week, we have seen a number of strange occurrences in Scottish Football, which if taken together might just point to a very different land than the one we were lead to believe we live in just two short years ago.
First of all there was the report from a firm of well known accountants which pronounced that a significant number of Scottish Football Clubs had, in fact, sold more season tickets for this coming season than they had in the course of the last several years.
Then we had the spectacle of the National team travelling to Wembley and playing very well AND being cheered on by a very large travelling support who appear to have been full of fun and who acquitted themselves well in the big smoke.
This morning I read that today’s match at Pittodrie is a sell out — with the old stadium being packed to the rafters for the visit of Celtic. This is the first time that Aberdeen have been able to sell out the fixture for some 6 years!
Not only that, various Celtic supporting websites have lead with articles saying that the return of a strong Aberdeen and Dundee United are to be welcomed– in fact not only welcomed but positively wished for.
In contrast, stories abound about the in fighting on the Ibrox Board. There are surreptitious share dealings and all sorts of company jockeying being deployed by the rival factions who are trying to gain control of The Rangers. Further, there is the suggestion from some well informed parties that not only will Ibrox and the Albion be sold and leased back to the club to generate much needed immediate cash, but that Murray Park has been sold off completely and will no longer be available to The Rangers for any purpose whatsoever!
Clearly, there are big troubles at the club which will not assist in the stated intention of rising to the very top in Scottish Football.
In between all of this, the debate goes on about Campbell Ogilvie, Press manipulation, the correspondence between Media House and the SFA, and between The SFA and Ibrox re the relationship between Charlie Green and Craig Whyte and so on.
Standing with my business hat on, I looked at all of this and wondered what it all meant, and pretty quickly reached the conclusion that we are now in a time of supreme opportunity for some of the clubs in Scottish Football—- particularly Aberdeen FC.
There is a view abroad, that in the absence of the “Strong Rangers” that Celtic Football Club will win the SPFL title for almost evermore — or at least until they are toppled from the top spot by the rise of a strong Rangers club somewhere towards the end of this decade or early in the next– because we are assured that they will be back– in one form or another– in a rather Arnold Schwarzenegger like fashion.
That return or initial rise if you like– its timing and its manner— is dependent on a number of things– not least the exit strategy of Charlie Green and his cohorts.
If it is true that The Rangers are going to part company with Ibrox and the Albion, that they have taken on a loan of funds which attract a rate of interest that amounts to 15% per annum, and that there are set figures for buying the old ( and decaying ) stadium back any time soon, and that they have yet again hawked the season ticket money, then the already flawed Ibrox business plan is burdened even more by interest and rent payments of an additional £3M per annum and rising!
It should also be noted that the accounts for old co from the mid naughties onwards boasted that season ticket sales, merchandising, corporate hospitality and so on had reached unprecedented levels—- but—- the club still did not make an operating profit without strange internals transactions such as the repurchase of media rights which added £15M on to the P&L’s AND the sale of Jean Alain Boomsong!
Accordingly, the current position will not make for good financial reading.
So– let’s presume that in the current climate Celtic are out of sight and will always be champions for ever and a day. What do the rest of the clubs say in the absence of the Ibrox club without whom they have been told they will perish?
Well, If I were in charge of Aberdeen FC I would look out across a city with an inherent population of some 220,000 souls sitting in a county which takes the population up by another 40,000 or so. I would note that the compact city also houses two universities and a number of colleges — all of which attract visitors to the city— and that its position as the oil capital of Europe also draws in a substantial number of itinerant workers.
Further, personal knowledge shows that many who studied at Aberdeen University or Robert Gordon’s in the 80’s left the city as Aberdeen FC fans and no matter where they have ended up in life they still make the journey back to Pittodrie when they can– especially in good times!
Alas, however, Aberdeen has not enjoyed ” Good Times” of late— in fact not really since ……….. the arrival of David Murray at Ibrox!
If you cast your mind back to the pre Murray era, Aberdeen were a force not only in Scotland but Europe as the recent nostalgia re Gothenburg has reminded us.
The city has an economic micro climate which suggests that it can ride economic hardship better than most and so all things considered this current period provides a great opportunity for the Dons.
Unlike Dundee United, Hearts, and Hibs, Aberdeen FC sits in a large one team conurbation and should be on the doorstep of a populace which can fill Pittodrie every single week …… IF that fan base can be motivated.
And there lies the rub– how do you get a notoriously fickle fan base out of the armchair and into the stadium?
The late Bob Crampsey once described Pittodrie by saying ” And there are the masses of Aberdeen fans, masquerading as rows and rows of Empty seats!” yet in their heydey an Aberdeen crowd on a visit to Glasgow were among the noisiest– and to this football fans eyes — the scariest ( in a good sense ) supports to be seen.
Well, at this juncture, Derek McInnes and team need only look at every other football club in the land ( bar Celtic ) and determine that come next May those others will be below them in the league. If Aberdeen maintain a strong league run keeping everyone behind them then there is the possibility of a huge revenue swing in favour of the Dons– such a swing that would put them in an even stronger position for the following year.
Further, Aberdeen are a European name. Perhaps a European name from yesteryear and not the recent past, but the pedigree is there and as such there will be those who remember the heady European Nights both home and away. Reviving those memories and that reputation– at least to an extent– is not beyond the club, and with no disrespect to Motherwell and St Johnstone both of whom are liable to lose key players or even a manager between seasons, Aberdeen may just be of a size to consolidate each year rather than scramble to maintain the momentum of one good season which comes along every now and then.
Financial management and football rewards can go hand in hand when combined properly, and of all the clubs in Scotland who can benefit from a level playing field in terms of proper football governance, Aberdeen FC are uniquely placed in my opinion.
That is not so say that The Arabs, or the Hibees or anyone else cannot benefit– on the contrary— but the Dons are the most obvious candidates in terms of potential structure to really motor forward and regain a by gone status.
Such a situation, and the recognition of that potential, should be borne in mind by all at Celtic Football Club, as last year they struggled for a period in the league while they concentrated on their European exploits. If Celtic want to go further and further in Europe ( and why shouldn’t they ) they will have to be wary of any club which is capable of reigniting its fortunes from a lowly position or a position of having to look back at glory and potential glory rather than looking forward.
Further, with the way things are being organised at Ibrox, there is absolutely no guarantee ( some would say likelihood ) that an eventual challenge to a perceived dominance by Celtic will come from that quarter, and life in the top flight for any returning Rangers could prove very difficult if the likes of Aberdeen get their act together and start to produce the type of home grown team of old.
For now, I sense a degree of optimism about the Dons– not just on the playing front either. They have a fan base, they have a business model and a good young manager, and any comparative business exercise must conclude that they have every chance of rising above most of their rivals in the league, in terms of revenue, in terms of brand development and business expansion.
If I were an Aberdeen fan I would like to think positive and be ambitious in this climate, whilst at the same time casting an eye back to the days when they were top of the tree.
As one Aberdeen supporting ( but now Edinburgh based ) friend put it to me:
” Ah, those were the days my friend, those were the days……………”
Danish Pastry says:
August 21, 2013 at 4:23 am
34 3 Rate This
… I sometimes wonder if the increased numbers at Firhill are, in part, boosted by lapsed bluenoses who’ve re-discovered the joy of just going to a Scottish match, free of foreign obsessions that kept the poison of the ‘OF’ going for so long.
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Partick Thistle are going through a terrific spell at the moment. Since McNamara left for a ‘bigger club’, we haven’t lost a match under Alan Archibald. 23 and counting. We currently have the longest unbeaten run in the top division, 7 games (spanning nearly a decade!). Our young starting 11 for our first match in the SPFL had no players with any top league experience. The first time this has happened since the inception of the SPL. We are playing very attractive passing football but perhaps lack a cutting edge.
Both Dundee United and Hearts brought a large support (the latter being a great credit to their club, the best away support at Firhill for many years).
There is a good feeling around Firhill at the moment. If we continue to do well, I suspect that we will gain a few supporters from other Glasgow clubs but just now I think it is simply a feel good factor.
So the 1p shares are changing hands. Ahmad has gone, CG is on his way and Stockbridge and Mather are being set up to go too. Presumably the £20M+ has gone to the mysterious Ticketus and CW. All that is left is for CG to hand the keys over. “You’ll find Ibrox in the drawer marked, “Sevco 5088″, with CW’s signature. We’re leaving you a squad more than good enough to win this Division, all you have to do is find the money to pay for it. Goodbye.”
So who is buying the shares?
At the risk of a hammering, is this plausible?
scapaflow says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:23 pm
Ha ha!! I’m a gentle soul teaching young refined ladies 😉
Mr Lunny, on the other hand, needs firm handling!
Is McColl the answer?.
I doubt it.He’s made his cash by making good business sense as and when necessary.He could buy TRFC tomorrow if he wanted.
He knows,however,that the outlay including purchase,covering losses for the next 4/5 years,stadium repairs,player investment etc could maybe reach £70m or more,which would bring no guaranteed return for many years,if ever.
Like any other business,TRFC have to find their level and balance their books accordingly.Then and only then,will they be able to build for the future.
Will the TRFC fans support the club through what will probably be barren years?.
If not,the whole thing crumbles and McColl’s intelligent enough to know that.
scapaflow says:
August 21, 2013 at 8:40 pm
Danish Pastry says:
August 21, 2013 at 8:33 pm
Absolutely, nobody has a monopoly on wisdom on here
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If I might take some slight exception to that statement, viz. :
Scottish football needs a strong Arbroath. 🙂
Thanks to everyone who replied to my post and my apologies to ecobhoy for putting him on the spot!
I think the fact that so many people replied and did so in a such a manner dispels any notion that TSFM is “anti Rangers”.
At this stage only time will tell what is in store for Rangers.
A sustainable business model, one which is rigorously adhered to by whoever ends up in the boardroom, is the only way that the club can survive and, hopefully (from my point of view anyway) end up in the top league and present a challenge.
But I have no doubt that McCoist is not the manager to do it and the Board, as it is, is no more capable.
McColl might be the man to help set things on the right path if he can in some way install the right candidates on the Board. But he didn’t get where he is today by chucking cash down a black hole, so he won’t be bankrolling anyone. This isn’t a quick fix. The cost cutting will have to be swift, dramatic and painful.
Whether the more vocal of the support will accept the long hard slog and lack of immediate success, remains to be seen.
I suspect many won’t even notice as they’re too busy sniping at each other and blaming everyone but those who are actually responsible for what has happened at Ibrox.
scapaflow says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:21 pm
Ecobhoy, McColl probably is the best hope they have right now. It will be interesting to see how things go between now and the EGM, if it happens. The board’s compromise is, of course, nothing of the sort. Putting Blin on the board as an ordinary board member on his todd, will leave him in a worse position than Malcolm Murray. Effectively setting him up to fail, as he will have responsibility but no power. Responsibility without power is the prerogative of the crapped upon down through the ages.
If McColl & Co reject this sham compromise, then we will know they are serious.
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Blin needs to replace Stockbridge to be able to find out exactly what has been done during the Green/Mather Ibrox tenure. You are quite right that putting him on as a NED would make him a ‘captive’ and drag him into the brown stuff just as it did with Walter.
I will never quite understand why Walter was daft enough to allow himself to be used in the way he was and I am quite sure he must now, in quieter moments, be asking himself the same question. He has been made to look an idiot at best.
For the avoidance of doubt, a wee update :
1. Still can’t find anything on the Pravda website (“If Rangers fans want the truth they will find it only on the Club’s official platforms.”) about the SFA serving Ian Black with a notice of complaint over alleged betting. Do bad things go away if you don’t talk about them?
2. Companies House still shows Whyte/Earley/Green as current directors of Sevco 5088 Ltd.
Scottish football needs more blogs like this one.
The Glen says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:03 pm
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McColl has made it clear he will not simply bankroll Rangers, but would he be prepared to provide finance via share issues like Dermot Desmond has with Celtic? Desmond has invested around £29M in share issues over the years but did so in the confidence the right people were running the club in the right manner. Desmond has great influence of course but has never been swayed by the populist view, and the club is now reaping the benefits of that approach.
The Glen says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:03 pm
The difficult decisions like getting rid of the management team, cutting the squad way back, reducing costs to the bare minimum should have been done by the administrators. That was the real opportunity to fix things, even if the CVA was rejected.
It did not suit Whyte, Green, Duff and Phelps to do that as the assumption was the SPL whatever happened (but debt free and therefor serious cost cutting without actually downsizing, by shafting the creditors).
Had things been done by someone like Bryan Jackson, and a proper administration and even liquidation carried out things would be very different just now. Even without a CVA the assets would have been open to other people to bid for. Proper people could have been brought in to sort the club out. They may even have gone for a pre-pack administration, where a CVA isn’t even needed the administrator makes all of the decisions. The business goes into the hands of new owners and the original company dies.
However the way it has worked out Whyte, Green, Duff and Phelps et al not only killed Rangers, they killed the new club as well before it was even born. The MSM, Mark (Grandmaster Suck) Dingwall, Chris (Fury) Graham, Jack Irvine etc were complicit in this by keeping the support onside and painting the rosy picture the fans wanted to believe.
These are the people the Rangers’ fans need to look at, not a “timmy conspiracy”, that myth was created by the same people. It was a distraction so that they could shaft the same fans once again, to sell season tickets and shares. They bought that because it suited them to do so.
Please feel free to disagree, but whilst doing so consider Santayana’s famous quote. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
This is another good one “Before you contradict an old man, my fair friend, you should endeavour to understand him.”
The post from Glen and the responses demonstrate that things seem to be moving on from a lot of the negativity around The Rangers.
The blog is actually now talking about what would make the club/company “right”. This, whilst in some ways welcome; making the club that operates out of Ibrox a better run, less antagonistic and more historically correct operation is a desirable thing, is it not more important and a far, far more desirable thing, that Scottish football is better run, less antagonistic and more forward thinking?
Methinks I sense squirrels…
Scottish Football needs an undistracted TSFM
ecobhoy says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:10 pm
There is more chance of my getting called up by NL to play next week, than there is of the current board meekly allowing Frank Blin to replace Brian Stockbridge. However, you are quite correct its where someone like Blin needs to be to get to the bottom of what’s been going on. Its also why the current board cannot under any circumstances allow it.
OT – 2nd day with my new class of P1s. Modelling what I wanted them to do – I like and I said “football”. I was shouted down, all the stereotypes of you can’t cos only men like football. Was rescued by my P2’s from last year who year who were fed up with me talking about football!
Anyway – football needs strong women (and a strong Arbroath)
scapaflow says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:57 pm
There is more chance of my getting called up by NL to play next week, than there is of the current board meekly allowing Frank Blin to replace Brian Stockbridge. However, you are quite correct its where someone like Blin needs to be to get to the bottom of what’s been going on. Its also why the current board cannot under any circumstances allow it.
Which is exactly why he’s not gone yet. I think the phrase is “eye on the ball” not the Man.
Para Handy says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:57 pm
Like it or not the two go together. Remove the poison from the well, and you have a chance of getting the pipework clean.
There is no hope for the team playing out of Ibrox, until it faces up to the reality that it is not the same club
It can’t afford the expense of luxury hotels, high wages, and supposed SPL quality players
It is no more than a pale imitation of the club that once played at Ibrox
Until the club and its supporters accept the reality of its current status, there will be no improvement in its fortunes
jean7brodie says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:39 pm
Thanks for loading me up with that particular mental image, where’s my whisky…..
campsiejoe says:
August 21, 2013 at 11:10 pm
It is no more than a pale imitation of the club that once played at Ibrox
==========================
That’s the thing Joe, the previous club was losing money year on year without substantial European income or significant profit from player registration trading. It had been going on for years.
The new club have really just gone down the same route. Spending more money than they earn in order to create some sort of illusion of being bigger than they are.
The people refuse to learn from their mistakes.
The Glen
I believe (from perusing said site) my previously mentioned George from Rangers Rumours is gathering supporters, so far by the dozen.
I believe the marble staircase entrance Friday and Saturday may be interesting.
I mean if the guy has genuinely printed 30,000 leaflets/ consulted lawyers using his own money he’s worth turning up to see. And he’s giving up his bank holiday weekend to do it.
He may talk in CAPS but somehow I think his hearts in the right place and I also believe what he’s going to spill in his leaflets is the whole Charlotte material.
Could be interesting to see if JT intervenes.
readcelt says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:36 am
Disappointing result for Celtic but over the piece maybe you would have to expect bobbing in and out of the Champions and Europa league for years to come.
It should be equally as difficult for the Kazaks to travel to Scotland. They are 6 hours ahead.
A 7pm kick off would be the equivalent of playing a game at 1am for them.
Exposing players to two years of European football followed by the best leaving for a rake of money remains the crux of the business model.
A lot of fans will be hurting right now but most of that will be down to the loss of morning after bragging rights.
Unless we see a fundamental change in the player development strategy from bottom up in this country, can we expect anything different when all our teams have to rely on uncovering transfer bargins from outside our own league?
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I was looking at the Ajax UEFA participation as Celtic seem to have adopted a similar approach..
I was surprised at how much Ajax do yo yo between CL and Europa L and have done so for the last ten years.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=2013/clubs/club=50143/history/index.html
I think there are good reasons for this and it is to do with the timing of releasing and signing players.
It takes at least three months for a player to settle in and show consistent form and if you lose 3 good players each year at the end of the season, EVEN IF YOU SIGN A REPLACEMENT AS SOON AS TRAINING RESTARTS you are still going to lose the fluidity of the previous season and performances become disjointed.
I think expectations were that Celtic would build on the previous season but you only do that if you buy a replacement at the developed level of the guy you sold and guys at that level are going to by pass Celtic because they have already bridged the gap that Celtic are the bridge for.
Looking back, the last 16 CL team of last season developed in the Europa the year before and if Celtic end up in the Europa and do well and hang on to the best, they will be more able to qualify for the next CL.
I think Celtic can win next week but if they do and even if they sign replacements, unless they are of the same standard as the departed, Celtic’s performances will not be good enough to keep the support happy. I’m not talking about results, everyone can all accept a bad result but not a bad performance.
There is a solution but it carries a risk. The solution is to sell developed players who have attracted interest but have signalled their intent to leave in the January window.
The risk is they will not be replaced or replaced by players not as developed as they were) and that puts the SPFL title and progression in the CL (assuming they are in it after Xmas) at risk.
However with no real competition in Scotland the risk of losing the title is low and Celtic are not going to win the CL so why not sell and replace in January so they are ready by summmer to qualify for the CL with a team that have been playing together as a team from the January?
I would also get rid of the long summer break for players by allowing time off during the Jan to May period depending on fixtures and injuries so that fitness is not lost but kept at a level nearer to match fitness.
In the rush to have players signed I think supporters are overlooking how long it takes for signings to become first names on the team sheet, indeed if they fail to do so in their first game they get written off.
Would the Celtic support buy into that approach of doing our business in January to avoid becoming a yo yo club like Ajax are?
Or is it really a case for summer football?
Summer football yes. Fixes all the pre qual idiocies.
Para Handy says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:57 pm
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Para, I asked a genuine question, I would think that posters gave honest and genuine answers to it.
There are no squirrels involved in any my posts I can assure you.
I’m not getting paid for taking time away from watching ancient, but enjoyable, music videos on youtube.
I would wholeheartedly agree with everything Squiggle said, and looking back at the high expectations of commonsense in the fttt, the lords podge and rodge debacles and the spl/sfl/sfa puzzles, only to be left bewildered. Talk of nuclear bombs, orlit, cw’s claims, CF’s unfathomable input have only served to distract from the fact that ally has been paid and is paying premier wages so that a move to the top tier is imminent, why else?
The Glen says:
August 20, 2013 at 10:39 pm
ecobhoy says:
August 20, 2013 at 8:03 pm
“An ‘enhanced but perfectly balanced Board’ is such a wonderful concept when watching a ballet performance, FFS get real we are talking about a football board which the Legend WS has described as dysfunctional.
It’s time to get the tackety-boots on and fight for the survival of the club never mind dreaming of it being stronger and more prosperous than ‘at any time in its history’. Seems as though the new PR company has been told what the fans expect to hear and I hope to gawd there are some who refuse to swallow this garbage.
At this rate there really is no hope for Rangers and if the Bears swallow this claptrap then their club is truly doomed.”
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ecobhoy, a genuine question:
What would you suggest the run of the mill Rangers fan do? If you, or any other poster were a Rangers Fan (apologies if that is too much to imagine for some folks), sitting down with other Rangers fans, what would you be suggesting at this point in time? Like I said, this is a 100% genuine question.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A long time ago I advocated giving up the attachment to Ibrox and forming a new club around the supporters playing from Firhill or Hampden.
I also advocate giving up the attachment to the belief system that has helped more than anything to kill Rangers off which should make a sustainable business model easier to achieve..
I am heading for the book launch of Bigotry, Football and Scotland tomorrow evening in Edinburgh.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bigotry-Football-Scotland-John-Flint/dp/0748670378
There is an interesting chapter by Andy McCrimmon a Ranger’s supporter on the need for a re-examination of the tradtions of Rangers that I found encouraging. My own contribution from a Celtic supporting perspective was based on its all about money and nothing since I wrote it last October has changed that view, quite the reverse, I underestimated just how much it was the case.
I had a dig at the smsm and of course a boot at the dishonest SFA but what is very interesting is just how much you prove my underlying point about the existence of decent Rangers supporters who only want to follow football.
I have no idea what impact if any the book will make. It is a child of academic thinking from Edinburgh University right next to the Scottish Parliament. Jack McConnel did the Foreword and might even be there.
I think there is a political dimension to this that the Scottish Government is unwilling to address in spite of the picture it paints of a modern day Scotland that is hostage to thieves and vagabonds with no respect for the ethics on which laws are based.
It really goes way beyond saving Rangers but I did advocate Government financial help to do so and I expect that will be ill received by my fellow Celtic supporters. I’ll maybe post a report back if anything relevant to TSFM is discussed.
As this saga unfolded and in the RTC days I took the philosophical view that this was all about a healing and that opinion is even stronger now..
The following from The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran greatly influenced that thought and the bits in bold say why.
.And a woman spoke, saying, “Tell us of Pain.”
And he said:
Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.
Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquillity:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips, has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.
ianagain says:
August 21, 2013 at 11:32 pm
Summer football yes. Fixes all the pre qual idiocies.
____________________
How do you feel about bribing the rest of the SPFL to agree by offering say 5% of the CL income the club that gets to the group stages gets?
dedeideoprofundis says:
August 22, 2013 at 12:10 am
After all the clubs acquiesced in creating Mr Ogilvy “President for Life” I suppose anything is possible, but I suspect hubris has much more to do with it. Or, warning conspiracy theory alert, if you wanted to make some money in the short term, but really wanted to run the thing into the ground, so you could pick the bones clean, wouldn’t Super Ally be your bestest secret weapon ever?
Auldheid says:
August 22, 2013 at 12:31 am
Bribe??? Have you finally given up and bought into the SFA culture?
scapaflow says:
August 22, 2013 at 12:44 am
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Auldheid says:
August 22, 2013 at 12:31 am
Bribe??? Have you finally given up and bought into the SFA culture?
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Just using their language to catch their attention 🙂
As promised StevieBC, regarding ‘The Cardigan’.
Bears Den August 5 2013 at 8.29pm.
Thread poster – Forlansister.
‘Walters silence’ ……. ‘comes courtesy of our Green appointed brokers Daniel Stewart threatening legal action if he speaks out.’
Cardigan’s rather underwelming statement, compared with expectations, was released at about 10.15 pm. that night. Feeling was that he was legally blocked due to effect on share price.
Incidentally StevieBC, his statement did actually back Murray, MColl and Blin and expectation was that he would have more to say once the ‘takeover’ was completed.
The Glen says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:03 pm
Whether the more vocal of the support will accept the long hard slog and lack of immediate success, remains to be seen.
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And this is very much a key issue for future progress on the wider front of social accepability with the rest of the Scottish Football Community.
The pioneering work of RTC and subsequently TSFM has exposed the web of lies and subterfuge that underpinned “The Most Successful Club in the World.” There can be no going back. The rest of the community has seen the deceit uncovered and we will simply not accept a return to the old status quo. The recent about-turns in the SMSM, even at the DR, are IMO strongly indicative of a belated recognition of the sea change in attitudes amongst the broader community.
The current incarnation can expect no let-up in the scrutiny of its business dealings. Too many supporters of other clubs have been alerted to the fraud and malpractise at Ibrox (“second only to match-fixing”).
A fresh start with clearly stated goals of transparency and social inclusion, and an active acknowledgement of past mistakes is the only way to an acceptable shared future where there is anything better than the current state of general loathing of the Ibrox club.
I will freely admit that I AM anti-Rangers – at least in the sense of what they have largely historically stood for (and currently still stand for). This is politics and social justice and I am clear where I stand.
Am I naive to hope for and write about a better future where there is a form of Rangers that genuinely stands for the better qualities of posters like The Glen? I fear I may be, but I hope PH and others will forgive the attempt to envisage a better future, irrespective of its likelihood of coming about.
I know too many decent Rangers fans who are not adequately represented by the club they profess to follow to be ready to abandon them all. The time has arrived for them to seize the opportunity to re-mould their club in a socially acceptable form that will allow them to pass on their allegiance to their sons and daughters with a clear conscience.
The challenge is clear. Reclaim your club from spivs, liars and supremacists and make it something you can support with a clear conscience. Or walk away. The latter is easier. The former will require concerted effort and identification of leaders prepared to fight for a common cause. Leadership, in this case, does not mean financial acumen or a large personal bank balance – it means moral direction and a clear aim that is communicated to and agreed with a majority of the club’s fans. Mr McColl is NOT the answer here.
The question originally posed by The Glen only related to what can the run of the mill Rangers fan do now.
There is a similar question about what Scottish football fans in general can do.
The systemic corruption within the SFA has been clearly exposed and all of the things we suggest that Rangers fans do to retrieve their club, we should take on board as actions for ourselves to reclaim our national association from those who conspire to use it to perpetrate one of the greatest sporting frauds of all time.
I can envisage a future with a socially acceptable form of Rangers – Sadly I don’t expect it to happen and that is a shame.
Can we envisage a socially acceptable form of the SFA? I think so. But it involves the wholesale removal of a generation of officials whose credibility has been destroyed by their lack of vision and their unswerving devotion to the cult of an Establishment team whose interests supercede those of the rest of the association in its entirety.
The Gers fans need to mobilise to remove the Spivs at Ibrox, and we need to mobilise to remove their lackeys at Hampden.
I don’t think this is squirrels, but it may be nuts.
I’ll get ma strait-jaiket…. 😳
andy g says:
August 22, 2013 at 12:57 am
As promised StevieBC, regarding ‘The Cardigan’.
Bears Den August 5 2013 at 8.29pm.
Thread poster – Forlansister…
=========================
Thanks for follow up andy g.
1) Brokers threats.
Following Traynor’s recent ‘For the Avoidance of Doubt’ piece, we have to discount Bears Den content – as an unofficial ‘platform’.
I don’t accept that a broker would ‘threaten’ an outgoing director.
I do accept that an ex-director would – as always – have to consider his public statements, but he would not be silenced.
IIRC, Johnston and Bain where critical of RFC – with Bain claiming that RFC was at risk of an insolvency event as justification for ringfencing RFC monies as part of his unfair dismissal related court action, [later dropped].
WRT to Sir Walter, this Bears Den ‘reason’ seems too convenient to absolve his silence – and to kill dead any criticism of him.
2) Walter plans to speak out ‘later’.
As for Sir Walter indicating that he would speak out after ‘the takeover’ is very poor indeed.
His voice would be powerful and influential amongst the Ibrox support – but only BEFORE any takeover.
After a takeover, it’s just hot air.
He was virtually silent as a NED, and then as non-exec Chairman – and he now continues to be silent after leaving the Board.
I don’t see any reason why Smith would suddenly find his voice in the future either – unless he is selling a story to a paper, or a book.
Smith’s actions are just another puzzling side story to the main event.
I was surprised he returned whilst Green was Chief Exec.
I was even more surprised when Smith took the Chairman role – rather than resign.
Whatever his personal motivations, I don’t think he has done himself – or the TRFC fans – any favours at all with his decision-making. He was the one personality who could have shown real leadership for the TRFC fans from either within the Boardroom – or more likely from outside the Boardroom.
He has done neither – but he did sell ST’s.
Is there anywhere in cyberspace a blog to equal this TSFM blog?
The range and quality of factual observations and interpretations of facts and theorisations on those facts, and the humour and generally sophisticated debating standard , are without parallel.
But I think we should keep in mind that the internal squabbles of what seems to be a self-destructing footballing entity are not the main issue.
Let greedy pigs fight among themselves. That is a problem for the ‘Rangers support’.
The problem for the rest of us remains with the compromised SFA Board.
There has to be a change.
I have watched and listened to Scottish Football for over 55 yrs, in all that time the Rangers (IL) songbook has remained the same,it was the same long before I was born,and will be there long after I’m gone.
There are many great posters on here who are a lot more forgiving than I am.
The present incarnation is every bit as despicable as the old one.
From the board to the fans they have propagated the myth of WATP for 140yrs and now the mantle has been handed to Sevco.
We have,on here and RTC,looked and examined every utterance from the people in charge of Sevco and the SFA,we have spotted the lies,the corruption the collusion between the Old and the New,now there are people advocating that we help this bigoted club to survive for the sake of the Good fans.
What rubbish, it has already been proved that Scottish Football does not need Sevco..
If you think that a few posts on here or elsewhere are going to change the mentality of the people then you are deluding yourself.
Do you honestly think that Ibrox would be full every 2 weeks if the songbook was not there and allowed to be sung.
They have played the sectarian card for the same 140 yrs,that’s why they can fill the stadium.
This club has brought Football in this country to it’s knees,and now we should try and help them recover their dignity ? not me. As far as I’m concerned the sooner they are gone the better for Football.
We may need a strong Arbroath, but we certainly don’t need Sevco in any condition.
Was looking at the company register and saw this. On the 20/08 there was a ‘creditsafe rating refinement’. I take it this is related to the phrase below on the first line. Probably not significant, but thought I’d ask 😉
Company Register
Status Rating Suspended – Negative Press Event
Registered date 29/05/2012
Company number SC425159
Type Private limited with Share Capital
Country of registration GB
Previous Names
Previous name SEVCO SCOTLAND LIMITED
Date changed 31/07/2012
€94m or whatever it is for Gareth Bale, obscene. Where are Real getting that sort of money and how can it ever be paid back ? What insurance company would even take on the risk should he get injured, football went mad today
@briggsbhoy
Has that gone through?
1 Welshman = x% of Scottish football’s operating budget. Find the value of x 🙂
Danish I’m not 100% sure but it would appear to be close judging by what’s on-line. If it has or does what as you say is the value of X. That one player is likely worth more than the entire value of every player in a league such as our Premiership is bonkers. What bank manager is his right mind is given out this loan and when the citizens of Spain are in Dire financial state, it’s sick really
briggsbhoy says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
4 0 Rate This
What bank manager is his right mind is given out this loan …
———–
The kind who know that the Spanish government is afraid of clubs, and treads softly softly around the subject of accumulated tax debt, thus freeing up lolly for vulgar transfers. How about an alternative European Cup with admission only for clubs who operate as solvent entities, without indirect state sponsorship?
Fairly frivolous I know, but any Rangers fans worried about the state of their finances would cough up their cornflakes this morning with the Herald article.
‘Fans continue to support the removal of the directors because of further financial issues at the club. A fans’ meeting earlier this month learned there was only £10 in the club’s account, despite raising £22 million from a share offering and more than 70,000 season ticket sales over two seasons.’
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/shareholders-stand-firm-in-bid-to-oust-directors-from-rangers-board.21937899
Edit 10.35 – Its now been amended, but can’t help thinking they were closer first time round.
briggsbhoy says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:37 am
€94m or whatever it is for Gareth Bale, obscene. Where are Real getting that sort of money and how can it ever be paid back ?
+++++++++++++++++++
Simply their income is high enough. While both Barca and Real madrid carry debts they are no where near the levels of some of the top English sides. With Madrid and Barca able to negotiate their own tv rights, meaning they get in excess of 150m a year its no wonder they have this sort of money lying around.
They will amortize the transfer fee over the length of Bales contract (I guess around 5 years), so it will be 20m/year. Their last accounts showed annual amortization of 100m, so its only really a 5th of their transfer budget…
Scary.
Here’s a good site for folk interested in footy finance. http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Real%20Madrid
A very interesting article on the East Stirlingshire website. Apologies if it has already been posted/discussed. It seems the football authorities do enforce their rules – at least when it suits them.
Club Gets Its Licence
Aug 21, 2013No Commentsby admin
The SFA’s Licensing Committee has again granted East Stirlingshire a licence for the next 12 months.
It means Shire have now attained the standards set out in the SFA licensing manual for the third successive year. As well as ensuring the club is compliant with the various rules set out by the SFA, it is especially important that we have met the mark this year.
“The establishment of the SPFL in the summer, for the first time, makes having a club licence part of the conditions of membership of the league we play in,” said Shire secretary, Tadek Kopszywa.
“We now have a situation where not meeting the standards set out in club licensing could put our place in the league in danger, and this is a new situation for all former members of the SFL.”
The SFA is also set to introduce sanctions for clubs which do not gain, or lose, their licence which could result in the withholding of prize money due to them for participating in the Scottish Cup.
“Club licensing is a hugely important exercise not just for our club but for others across Scotland,” said Tadek. “The people who run clubs realise this and, like ourselves, spend a great deal of time and effort on making sure we meet the criteria.
“But the issue of licensing is one which is not particularly well-understood by supporters and we are very keen that our own fans do appreciate how licensing impacts on everything we do,” he said.
The club is grateful to the SFA Licensing Committee for their decision to grant the award at their meeting earlier this week.
http://www.eaststirlingshirefc.com/2013/08/21/club-gets-its-licence/
anish Pastry says:
August 22, 2013 at 8:23 am
briggsbhoy says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:56 am
What bank manager is his right mind is given out this loan …
———–
The kind who know that the Spanish government is afraid of clubs, and treads softly spftly around the subject of accumulated tax debt, thus freeing up lolly for vulgar transfers. How about an alternative European Cup with admission only for clubs who operate as solvent entities, without indirect state sponsorship?
…………………………………
Chaps….it’s also worth bearing in mind…that the vast amounts borrowed from the Spanish state in the past…have been written off on 3 previous occasions….
State funding?….anyone?
stevensanph says:
August 22, 2013 at 8:35 am
0 0 i
Rate This
briggsbhoy says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:37 am
€94m or whatever it is for Gareth Bale, obscene. Where are Real getting that sort of money and how can it ever be paid back ?
+++++++++++++++++++
Simply their income is high enough. While both Barca and Real madrid carry debts they are no where near the levels of some of the top English sides. With Madrid and Barca able to negotiate their own tv rights, meaning they get in excess of 150m a year its no wonder they have this sort of money lying around.
They will amortize the transfer fee over the length of Bales contract (I guess around 5 years), so it will be 20m/year. Their last accounts showed annual amortization of 100m, so its only really a 5th of their transfer budget…
Here’s a good site for folk interested in footy finance. http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Real%20Madrid
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Stephen, Briggsbhoy and DP
I thought that a certain M. Michel Platini based with UEFA had been banging his drum about “sustainable football”…?
The ultimate irony is that both the Spanish Government and Spanish football finances are underpinned by German banks, after all, no Spanish bank can do so. Uli Holness of Bayern Munich has spoken out on many occasions about the farce of the imbalance of Spanish finances, both governmental and footballing.
Maybe this is what David Murray used as a financial model for RFC(IL)…!
stevensanph says:
August 22, 2013 at 8:35 am
1 0 Rate This
Simply their income is high enough.
———–
Article I read last week in a Danish newspaper mentioned three previous occasions where a demand for tax owed was waived by the government. Have you any info on that Steven? Problem must be the knock-on effect throughout Europe, where other clubs have to then overstretch themselves financially to keep up, while paying tax. It does not have the appearence of a level playing field. Not unlike what unfolded in Scotland.
PS Cheers Arnold Layne, great to see the Jags revival. Inspirational.
Danish Pastry says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:25 am
Was looking at the company register and saw this. On the 20/08 there was a ‘creditsafe rating refinement’. I take it this is related to the phrase below on the first line. Probably not significant, but thought I’d ask
Company Register
Status Rating Suspended – Negative Press Event
Registered date 29/05/2012
Company number SC425159
Type Private limited with Share Capital
Country of registration GB
Previous Names
Previous name SEVCO SCOTLAND LIMITED
Date changed 31/07/2012
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Creditsafe provide the main business credit ratings in the UK. The suspension may be related to the recent Times article but the extract above misses the line:
“The company has not yet filed accounts. The Rangers Football Club Limited’s risk score was amended on 20/08/2013. ”
Is the City becoming concerned?
Danish Pastry says:
I’m not that up to speed on Spanish finances. I know a few of the clubs are badly in debt, but my understanding was barca and Madrid were actually better off comparatively when compared to certain English sides. If you look at the 2nd article on the link it shows a comparison between Madrid, Arsenal, Barca and Man U. Both Spanish clubs had better balance sheets at the time.
I believe, but might be wrong, that their ‘bank’ debt is in government banks which have been written off in the past.
Will we ever see the day there is a limit on transfer fees and a player joins a club because he likes the set up better ! doubt it
Heres how Real got the initial “leg up” that makes them so rich. That and the fact that their borrowings are at very good rates. Some say because they are sound others cite Perez’s influence through his companies, some of Spains largest. I dont believe any debt was ever written off..
Source Wiki
Ciudad Deportiva was Real Madrid’s former training complex located on the Paseo de la Castellana in Madrid, Spain.
Real Madrid[edit source | editbeta]Completed under the presidency of Santiago Bernabéu Yeste in 1963, the Ciudad Deportiva was a novel concept at the time, located on the city’s outskirts. It had training pitches for the first team and youth categories as well as facilities for club members, such as swimming pools and recreational rooms. At the time, Real Madrid also had sections devoted to other sports, such as tennis, and these athletes trained there as well.
The site also contained the Pabellón Raimundo Saporta, built in 1966, where Real Madrid’s basketball team played its home games for 38 years. Some of Europe’s greatest players, including Dražen Petrović and Arvydas Sabonis of later NBA fame, once called it home.
Controversy[edit source | editbeta]By the end of the 20th century the land surrounding the Ciudad Deportiva was no longer on the outskirts of Madrid, but had become a transportation hub with the north of the city and a financial area. Its location along the Castellana further increased the land’s value. With Real Madrid’s debts mounting in the late 1990s, plans to re-zone and commercially develop the land were mooted several times, but it wasn’t until the presidency of Florentino Pérez that these plans came to fruition.
Although commonly believed to be a direct transaction in which Real Madrid sold the land to the Madrid city council, this is not in fact what happened. In 2000 there was a motion proposed, voted on, and approved in the Madrid parliament to re-zone the area of the Ciudad Deportiva, which until then was zoned for non-commercial purposes. In this vote, the Partido Popular (People’s Party) and the Izquierda Unida (United Left) voted in favor, the Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party (PSOE) voting against.
The agreement between Real Madrid and the local government stipulated that in exchange for re-zoning the land Real Madrid would cede a portion of the land to the Government. Then, in public project bids, both Real Madrid and the Government sold their portions to four corporations, Repsol YPF, Mutua Automovilística de Madrid, Sacyr Vallehermoso and Obrascón Huarte Lain (OHL), for which Real Madrid earned an estimated 480 million euros. These four corporations are, as of August 2006, constructing four skyscrapers on the site which will become their headquarters as part of the Cuatro Torres Business Area. The government also gained land which they sold in public bidding, and a large amount of greenspace.
Although unnamed clubs requested that the European Union investigate the transaction, the EU found no wrongdoing or evidence of state subsidies.
Ciudad del Madrid[edit source | editbeta]With a portion of the funds obtained from the Ciudad Deportiva, Real Madrid constructed new training facilities in Valdebebas, which like the Ciudad Deportiva in 1963, are currently on the outskirts of the city. The new facilities, named Ciudad Real Madrid and inaugurated in 2005, are extremely modern and at 1.2 square kilometres are ten times larger than the former facilities. This is the widest sport facility built in the world.
In these facilities we can find all the training fields for all the teams of the different categories, the press room, restaurant, training fields for the first team, and the Alfredo Di Stéfano Stadium (where the reserve team, Real Madrid Castilla plays its matches).
Real Madrid President who was at the origin of this city, Florentino Perez, said about it: “If the Real Madrid is universal, this will be its capital. A city opened to anyone, a football dream: The Real Madrid city”.
Tic 6709 says:
August 22, 2013 at 7:13 am
—————————————-
Unfortunately your spot on with your comments. In the hearts and minds of the very vast majority of RFC fans the club and its baggage are what makes it so appealing. Without the baggage they’d be lucky to fill Broadwood.
briggsbhoy says:
Will we ever see the day there is a limit on transfer fees and a player joins a club because he likes the set up better ! doubt it
++++++++++++++
For sure… its called Amateur football 🙂
But one day this will all come crashing down. I noted in the BDO report from last week one startling paragraph concerning HMRC tax implications:
“Last year, 92% were confident that their tax position on payments to
players was robust and defensible to HMRC but doubts appear to be
creeping in with only 77% ‘not concerned’ this year. The EPL and FLC
are, not surprisingly, the most concerned with respectively 42% and
39% of respondents.”
That is almost 50% of the EPL clubs concerned about their payment structures and how HMRC are interpreting them. For comparison, the SPL was just 1 club concerned, who I presume were Hearts.
bobcobb74 says:
August 22, 2013 at 8:38 am
3 0 Rate This
A very interesting article on the East Stirlingshire website.
Apologies if it has already been posted/discussed. It seems the
football authorities do enforce their rules – at least when it
suits them.
The SFA is also set to introduce sanctions for clubs which do
not gain, or lose, their licence which could result in the
withholding of prize money due to them for participating in
the Scottish Cup.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet another rule designed to avoid punishing Ally’s team! 💡
tomtom says:
August 22, 2013 at 9:29 am
Plenty of clubs have “baggage” that is important to their history and culture.
Talk of shedding such baggage, especially when it comes from outside, sounds rather pompous and moralising to me. And I should know.
If any team wants to cling to cultural baggage that makes them unpopular with other fans, or indeed all other fans, why is that so bad? Every good conflict needs a baddie, and if one team in particular is keen to be that baddie, who are everyone else to prevent them?
This of course is an entirely different argument from condoning illegality, dishonest administration, cowardly regulation and institutional bias.
tomtom says:
August 22, 2013 at 9:29 am
Re the baggage – you are correct that there is a proportion just there for that element of the ‘atmosphere’ but it all falls down if the team isn’t winning. There aren’t enough bearz willing to turn a blind eye to average on the pitch whilst they’re singing their ditties. Bluntly, there’s no point singing about supremacy if you’re 2-0 down after 30 minutes. The team in its present incarnate HAS to keep winning. The money side is almost a by product of that . To be fair that is one of the few things they did get right.
The gamble is the club/company etc having any resources left to compete once stiffer opposition is met – but then of course the present incumbents weren’t intending hanging around that long.
Night Terror says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:14 am
“Every good conflict needs a baddie”
NT, are we talking football as in a game between two sides as part of a competition like a league or a cup?
So where does ‘conflict’ come in – or was that just a Freudian slip?
@manandboy
Football is conflict. It’s naturally antagonistic. Two team try to beat each other, each team tries to finish above every other team in the league.
The teams may have a collective interest in a healthy and competitive league, but this is often lost on the fans and, sadly, the clubs due to the natural conflict of interests between teams trying to constantly beat each other.
Do you see it any differently?
stevensanph says:
August 22, 2013 at 9:04 am
2 0 Rate This
————
Steven, one of the many good pieces in The Independent about this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/how-tax-break-gives-real-madrid-and-barcelona-an-unfair-edge-8749146.html
Arnold Layne says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:34 pm
—————————————————
Partick Thistle are going through a terrific spell at the moment….
_________________________________________________
Before the start of last season I went with a friend to see Partick Thistle v Celtic at Firhill. I was really impressed with Thistle’s 3-1 win, and expressed the opinion that Thistle would do well in the first division last year if they could keep up that kind of form, and of course they did a lot better that well.
The 1-1 Thistle v Dundee Utd game is the first time I can ever remember watching a televised Scottish game all the way through that didn’t involve Celtic.
Terrific entertainment, and I felt heavily disappointed that Thistle didn’t win as they deserved to.
I’ll be following their results closely this season and expect at least a top six finish.
bobcobb74 says:
August 22, 2013 at 8:38 am
Have Sevco got their licence yet? In last years SFA handbook, in section where clubs’ details are listed it included licence numbers, with Sevco’s been marked as TBC. This year’s handbook has removed the entry for licence details from all clubs. Coincidence?
paulsatim says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:50 am
Have Sevco got their licence yet? In last years SFA handbook, in section where clubs’ details are listed it included licence numbers, with Sevco’s been marked as TBC. This year’s handbook has removed the entry for licence details from all clubs. Coincidence?
______________________________________________
Undoubtedly a pure coincidence.
Probably a printing error.
🙄
http://www.scribd.com/doc/161387119/RIFC-Requisition-of-General-Meeting
http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_gb/uk/3c5271bd4281b310VgnVCM1000003156f70aRCRD.htm
“Since MWB’s share placing in January 2010, Pyrrho has repeatedly questioned the actions of the directors of MWB and corporate actions taken by the Company, both publicly via a number or announcements and privately in meetings and correspondence. However, shareholder resolutions, which were controversial, in Pyrrho’s view, were capable of being passed because management was able to amass irrevocable undertakings from a majority of holders of MWB shares.
In particular Pyrrho refers to the sale of Liberty Plc at a 30% discount to the then share price, the failed attempt to privatise Business Exchange due to MWB’s refusal to increase the share exchange ratio to a more reasonable level and the costly debt refinancing in September 2011.
Pyrrho believes these events highlighted the poor corporate governance, the conflict of interest and serious strategic errors of the board of MWB since the January 2010 placing. In Pyrrho’s view, it is these actions which have led to the eventual appointment of administrators to MWB.”
http://www.costar.co.uk/en/assets/news/2013/February/Pyrrho-makes-11th-hour-MWB-move/
Squiggle says:
August 21, 2013 at 11:23 pm
Where is steerpike this week – apart from on the pages of the darkest book ever written? Busy? With meetings of one sort and another? Indeed, a(nother) self proclaimed business man. Where is GreenockJack? Up the Glen (Rangers) by any chance. Eco you should take the chance to sit back for a while – all of you should, the patterns become so visible, but Eco is metronomic, you need a break.
=====================================================================
I assume after my right to express an opinion is silenced the next step will be the burning of the books or in new technology terms a deletion of all previous postings.
I was publicly asked by ‘The Glen’ as to my thoughts on what an ordinary Rangers fan could do to ‘save’ his/her club and I gave my opinions. If you wish to disagree with any of them fine and if you have no interest in reading them then that’s fine as well.
Do whatever you like but do not even attempt to tell me what I should do with regard to expressing my thoughts and how I choose to spend my time – only the moderators on this blog enjoy that power and it is something I accept anywhere I post.
I see you pining for steerpike and I see he has been posting his usual deflecionist drivel on Scotslawthoughts. You appear to be ‘tagging’ me as a closet Bear. So let me make it clear – once again – I come from a poor, mixed religious background and have attended Protestant and Catholics schools. I was the first from my family and scheme, as far as I know, who went to uni.
I have protestant and catholic relatives and friends and, increasingly these days, many with no organised religion like myself. I totally ignore bigots – including family members – from both sides of the religious divide as they have closed minds inherited from the ghetto-mentality of their parents and upbringing but they are slowly dying out and I have great hope for younger people who are so much more inclusive and multi-cultural.
I have been very active politically and in trade unionism all my life and have done well professionally and in general and I have never ever been afraid to speak out in defence of principles I hold dear and on occasion have paid a price for this. I have also been a Celtic supporter from around the age of 11/12.
If there is anything else you want to know about me personally then just ask but tbh I would rather you tried something constructive like debating issues. I accepted the question from ‘The Glen’ as an honest one and attempted to answer it in the same way. If he has a hidden agenda then it will emerge but in the meantime, as always, I am prepared to extend common civility to any poster no matter their views because part of what drives my metronome is to try and understand what makes people tick.
I simply happen to think that if people have a better understanding, not just of each other’s position, but how it was arrived at then there is more of a chance they can find common goals and aims. And even when that isn’t possible then at least there is a good chance that the ‘roadblocks’ can be identified and the reasons for their existance understood.
It’s a helluva long slow process but trust can be built which can see permanent ‘roadblocks’ removed and mobile ones used in their place and ultimately there is a possibility that the need for them might entirelydisappear. I look at the progress in NI and though there is much still to be achieved things are better than I ever thought I would see in my lifetime. I also have an understanding of Ireland as all of my grandparents had their roots there – one set protestant and one catholic and not an ounce of bigotry between them.
So I live my life in hope of a better future for those who follow and feel deeply sorry for those trapped in bitterness.
Night Terror says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:42 am
0 0 Rate This
@manandboy
Football is conflict. It’s naturally antagonistic. Two team try to beat each other, each team tries to finish above every other team in the league.
The teams may have a collective interest in a healthy and competitive league, but this is often lost on the fans and, sadly, the clubs due to the natural conflict of interests between teams trying to constantly beat each other.
Do you see it any differently?
_________________________________________________________________________________________
Clearly. But then I don’t wear blue tinted glasses.
davythelotion says:
August 21, 2013 at 10:24 am
Now that Ahmad has sold up, for a healthy profit, and the board convened a meeting to dispense with the consultancy that never was, what next?
Are the shareholders going to be placated with the chairless board’s statement?
Are the audited accounts at the printers?
What’s Ally’s view as a shareholder of the team?
____________________________________________
I’m sure Ally would be the first to admit the fans deserve to know…
Tif Finn says:
August 21, 2013 at 7:03 pm
http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/136637
__________________________________________________
This article is bang on the money, but two years too late to save Sevco.
Shameful that ecobhoy has felt the need to justify himself or his right to voice an opinion.
Night Terror says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:14 am
Every good conflict needs a baddie, and if one team in particular is keen to be that baddie, who are everyone else to prevent them?
—————
To me, this attitude is exactly why Tic6709’s post at 7.13 this morning is so resonant and has received so many thumbs up.
What makes your team bad in addition to the things you listed, illegality, dishonest administration, cowardly regulation and institutional bias ? I’m afraid you open up a can of worms with a question like that unlike Glen’s question over where can reasonable Rangers fans go from here to salvage anything.
Intransigence to your current plight, an arrogance of entitlement that you should be in the top tier of Scottish football. A deep rooted disdain for any other club, that can be resolved by withholding its support or finance for games, or threats direct or indirect from its fanbase or management alike. The ‘No-one likes us, we don’t care’ is both apt and self-perpetuating and underlines your ‘who are everyone else to prevent them ?’ line. Certainly not the SFA, or other football authorities. They have shown themselves to be effete, weak and demonstrated a remarkable inability to follow their own set of rules when it comes to RFC or TRFC. The reasons for that have been held up to the light on this blog and remain a national disgrace.
When it comes to your point of playing the baddie, I’m afraid it doesn’t have the fun element of kids playing Darth Vader in Star Wars games. The badness ignores social responsibility, moral fibre and an understanding that it is all about the game – not a vehicle to peddle hatred and division with bully boy undertones and establishment notions of WATP. Most on here will have their own views on whether they want to see any kind of Rangers exist – your post is helping me shape mine.
manandboy says:
August 22, 2013 at 11:03 am
Would you be able to elaborate a little on how you see things differently?
What relevance does the tint of someone’s glasses have on the question of whether football has conflict as part of its nature?
Google Translate;
Tuesday, August 6, 2013 18:18 pm
Hiding in London, England Persuasion Extradition Rafat Ali Rizvi
Eben Ezer Siadari
Minister of Law and Human Rights Amir Syamsudin (Jaringnews / Dwi Sulistyo)
Rafat Ali Rizvi karen sentenced to 15 years in prison convicted of money laundering in the case of Bank Century.
JAKARTA, Jaringnews.com – Rafat Ali Rizvi, berkewargaan British man who has been sentenced to 15 years in prison in corruption case of Bank Century, believed to make up most of his time living in London. Therefore, the Government of Indonesia middle persuade the British government to extradite its citizens to undergo the sentence in Indonesia.
Justice Minister, Amir Shamsuddin had flown to England and met with a number of ministerial-level officials in the period July 28 to Aug. 4. “Our meeting was conducted in the spirit of improving cooperation between Indonesia and English law, related to asset recovery and extradition process of Rafat Ali Rizvi to Indonesia,” said Amir Shamsuddin told a news conference at his office today.
According to data reported by the Attorney General, Rafat Ali Rizvi last recorded address at First Gulf Asia Holding Ltd, Offshoe Group Chmabers PO Box CB 12751, Nassau, New Providence, Bahamas. In addition, he also recorded address at 50 Raffles Place # 34-04-05, Tower Lane Singapore, Singapore 048 623. Despite this strong suspicion Rizvi also spent much time in London, where he is still listed as the property owner’s Park Lane.
Amir Shamsuddin said during a visit to London, he asked Senior Minister of State at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and Minister for Faith and Communities, Rt Baroness Warsi, about steps to take to extradite Rafat Ali Rizvi.
“I express the hope suapaya be extradited because it was adjudged by the Central Jakarta District Court. But there I was briefed that the matter is not under the Ministry of Justice of England, but under the Ministry of Interior. And he promised to communicate with the British Minister on this matter, said Amir.
According to the verdict of the Central Jakarta District Court judge in 2010, Rafat Ali Rizvi joint business partnership, Hesham Al Warouq, proven legally and convincingly done corruption and money laundering together in the Bank Century case.
Besides sentenced to 15 years in prison, Hesam and Rafat were not present in court, was sentenced to pay a fine of Rp15 billion subsidiary six months in jail. They are also required to indemnify jointly and severally the state of Rp3, 1 billion. In addition, the property and assets of the two defendants would be deprived of the state to cover the losses the country.
Mentioned, Hesam and Rafat was legally signed a commitment letter to ensure transactions through securities that have low quality. Consequently Century Bank liquidity and forced the government through bailouts LPS disburse as much as Rp 6, 7 trillion. The judge ruled Hesham and Rafat accounted losses as Rp3, 1 billion and as much cs Tantular Rp2, 7 trillion.
Rafat extradition can not be done automatically because now there is no extradition treaty between the Government of Indonesia and the UK would also Singapore, two countries that have been the place of settlement Rafat.
manandboy says:
August 22, 2013 at 11:03 am
Clearly. But then I don’t wear blue tinted glasses.
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manandboy,
Please don’t reduce discussion to this when you disagree with someone. If you disagree with NT just say so and why or ignore him. To respond by labelling him – I guess as a Rangers supporter, which you would seem to suggest is a universally bad thing, gets us nowhere. Not that it should matter at all, but my guess is that NT is an adherent of the Scottish team whose rather loud team shirt colourscheme closely resembles Celtic’s Kazakhstani opponents in the CL qualifier.
Accept apologies in advance if I’ve misunderstood your intentions in your post.
Carntyne Riddrie says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:54 am
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paulsatim says:
August 22, 2013 at 10:50 am
Have Sevco got their licence yet? In last years SFA handbook, in section where clubs’ details are listed it included licence numbers, with Sevco’s been marked as TBC. This year’s handbook has removed the entry for licence details from all clubs. Coincidence?
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Undoubtedly a pure coincidence.
Probably a printing error.
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OR
Omitted in good faith 🙂
toby says:
August 22, 2013 at 11:16 am
My point is that you don’t have to like a rival team. Football is by its nature encouraging of rivalries and conflict between clubs and fans. There is a huge gulf between disliking a particular rival and demanding they change some of the “traditional” elements that you dislike. The problem arises when another club may make the same demands on your own club.
You don’t have to like the “cultural baggage” of another club – you may even hate it – to see it as a fundamental right of another club to hold such values. Indeed, it’s a basic test of commitment to free speech that you would defend the right of someone whose opinion you despise to state that opinion, so long as their opinion remains within the law (debate about some of the recent laws passed relating to football being another interesting subject entirely!).
Whatever the tone or content of another club’s culture (it’s always another club, isn’t it?), the important point, for me, is that this should be irrelevant when it comes to enforcing standards of regulation and administration. If a club’s “culture” extends to bullying and manipulation of the football authorities, or falls foul of the laws of the game or the land, that is a problem worth addressing.
However, if any club is simply not interested in making friends or holds certain cultural associations that most people find unpleasant, so long as that club accepts the downside of such an attitude when dealing with other clubs or regulatory bodies, I don’t really see what business it is of mine or any other club.
It may be a bit sad and self-defeating to adopt such attitudes, but some people just can’t be saved from themselves, and time and effort is better spent protecting others from the ill effects of their self-destructive behaviour.
All this chat of “saving Sevco”
Noble indeed – but I don’t think it is actually a viable business. Certainly not whilst they are in the lower leagues.
The costs of running “Rangers” excluding playing staff/management etc is about £14M a year. I don’t really see any way of trimming that really – these are costs for stewards, police, electricity, heating, hot water, catering and ticket staff, rates etc. Doesn’t matter what division they are in, so long as they have that size of a support and remain in Ibrox, they have these costs.
it doesn’t matter if they have “cultural” issues that non sevconians don’t like – they can sing all the songs they want – it wont reduce their cost infrastructure and it may/may not bring in more income – but they appear to be running at close to maximum capacity just now anyway.
So, costs of £14M to keep the show running – and then you add in the costs of a team just now. Lets leave that til the end!
Income – 34k season tickets at about £250 each (for lower leagues) = £8.5M income. then 20 homes games a season with 12.5k walk up punters at £15 a ticket. £3.75M – total = £12.25M
So, ticket sales alone don’t cover the costs.
but add in sponsorship, merchandising, corporate hospitality, tv money – £4m a seaon? Lets say £5M
that gives them about £17.25M with a cost base of £14M
So, they can spend about £3.25M on players and coaching staff a year and break even.
We know they are spending about double that – latest suggestions are that the wage bill is £7m – though it’s not clear if that includes ally and his backroom or not.so, could be as much as £8.5M
Now, if Sevco were to half that playing squad, with NO replacements. Not only would they struggle in the current league, i don’t see them maintaining the level of support they currently have.
So, they need to find £4M for this season, £4M for next season and then they will be in the SPL
Who si paying this £8M – jim McColl certainly won’t be, the blue knights won’t, Dave King – maybe but not without having ownership of the club 1st – so, another share issue for the fans? given the fans only stumped up £5M last time – when their club was really in the grubber and desperate, what chances they’ll be close to matching that this year ot the year after? They’ll be lucky to raise £1M
So, where is the hole being filled from?
Can they sell Murray Park? Or even “share” it with another club/tenant – would council be interested (allowing them to sell Allander Centre land) or West of Scotland Rugby – allowing them to sell Burnbrae. Maybe they can open it up to the public – and install the equivalent of a Pitz 5 a side park for Bears. It’s costing £2M a year to run, so decent savings can be made by simply offloading it (not likely unless it is rezoned for housing) or changing the current use to reduce costs.
Obviosuly once they get to the SPL, season ticket revenue will increase, costs remain static – but wage bill will increase.
but, no matter what kind of awakening/realisation/acceptance of current situation the fans/board room go through – it won’t matter if they remain the angry/aggressive/everyone hates us we don’t care mob, or if they accept they are a new club and try to build bridges – non of this matters to the BUSINESS of Sevco, sure it’ll maybe appease non sevconians and ease tensions between everyone but it won’t pay the bills.
So, 1st thing that they need to do before they think about anything else is “who is funding the black hoel for the next 2 years”
The IPO cash SHOULD have been there to do it, even though it was intended for other, captial purposes. If that cash was there, they could survive with a mild cull of the squad.
But it’s gone – where has it gone? are they asking? Are they working on how to get past the next couple of years?
Are they working to cut costs, are the fans working to raise income?
Sadly no.
I just don’t see them surviving now….not without another admin, and who knows what will come out the other side.
it’s just a case of waiting for them to die or for one of their much beloved Knights putting his hand into his pocket.
Only 2 certainties in life – Death and Taxes. You might cheat one, but not the other.
Arnold Layne says:
August 21, 2013 at 9:34 pm
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League matches! 😛
Or do you not count the Ramsden final because that was lost on a penalty shoot-out?
Still a tremendous achievement and I can’t get over us losing a good manager only to find what may be an even better one.
It was terrific the way he got the players heads up for a crunch league game after the huge disappointment of losing the final. Don’t think we’ve ever had that luck before.
@Toby
Should add that I entirely agree with you when you say
but I see that as a problem with the SFA, and other regulators of the game. Why should the Ibrox club change how they behave if it has proven, so it might appear to them, to have been so successful?
Even if they see being a new club playing in the lower reaches of the league with boardroom chaos, myriad suggestions of conspiracy and scandal, ongoing financial problems and doubts of future viability as evidence of the success of their approach and culture, who am I to tell them how to behave if they have no interest in seeking my opinion?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
August 22, 2013 at 11:48 am
Exactly. So long as they play within the rules, or are held to account when they break them, who cares about any such “cultural” issues? They shouldn’t matter at all. If it turns out they do matter, that is a problem for the regulation and administration of the game, not particularly for them, and far less for everyone else to demand they change such “culture”.