On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
Speaking of cultural significance, TRFC are as significant as any other group or individual that can sell newspapers and magazines to those needing their fix. Think Victoria Beckham or One Direction and whichever of the current reality show contestants and their coverage.
As for RFC (IL), it could be argued that their cultural significance is now historic rather than current. Think of groups and individuals like the 1930s national socialists and Willie Nelson…
Para Handy says: (15)
December 1, 2013 at 11:42 am
=======================
Good to see you’ve docked again.
Bryce,
I think any club could try make a case for “cultural significance”. I also think they woud fail. I don’t agree that just to be a football club – even one that won more honours than any other – qualifies as a unique cultural significance.
It is arguable that Rangers and Celtic have unique significance to their own followers in a wider sense than most other clubs in as much as their appeal extends (generally further and in greater numbers than others) beyond their immediate geographical location. If the reasons for that are “cultural”, I’m not sure that’s a road Richard Wilson (whose article I believe started all this) or Alec Salmond would want to travel.
The game itself has significance, both culturally and sociologically, but no single club has a claim on a distinct cultural significance. I fear the term is bandied around a bit in the fashion of “world class”, or “genius”. Just another platitude and the first port of call for those with a vocabulary deficit (Wilson that is – not you š )
On politics and sport… I can see any number of problems here and precious few solutions.
I think most people are generally happy with a simplistic statement saying the two do not mix.
So if we remove politics from football then we need to be consistent in how we go about it – yes?
So is it OK to sing national anthems that include phrases about rising against the English or rebellious Scots to conquer?
It has been suggested that the question should be posed towards expressions of violence.
Again, hard to argue with, but follow it through to the logical conclusions and at least the national anthems surely have to go?
There are many many other aspects that would also have to be revisited if we are serious about this.
I would be very happy to see a complete removal of politics from our sport. However a partial removal that focuses only on selected political expressions is open to all sorts of abuse and cannot be fair.
It becomes even more serious when we have a law that criminalises football fans for expressing opinions that could legally be expressed in public by non-football fans.
In an ideal world (and it isn’t but bear with me) the clubs themselves would have acted to suppress this. They could do so if they wanted to, but for many many years chose not to – almost certainly for financial reasons.
Failure of the clubs to act responsibly opened the door to legislation by both the football authorities and the Government. However their attempts to legislate for this complex issue leave so many anomalies in place that it is hard to see how natural justice is served.
I am not offering any real solutions here – just noting the complexity of the problem and the inadequacy of much of the response to the issue.
Lord Wobbly says: (977)
December 1, 2013 at 11:41 am
As per the good Lord’s comments, I’m also an unashamed glory hunter as I was born in Perth in the 70’s and so I ended up cheering on the best footballing side of the 80’s … McLeish and Miller and Strachan too …
In Perth as a youngster, I was aware of this Catholic/Protestant hokum in terms of different primary schools and the like but in the 80’s our family moved north of Aberdeen and as Wobbly says, the further you get away from Glasgow the more you realise how irrelevant that nonsense really is.
As a kid, my old man took me to the most accessible ground which was obviously Muirton Park. Little did I know then that the best and most likeable player on the park would end up being a figure that I would despise. What happened to Ally McCoist? At what stage in his life did he choose the path of greed, supremacism and Rangersness?
Even when Walter gifted him the assistants job at Scotland, I still kind of liked him, but now?
I utterly despise the bloke, and surely when the truth eventually outs, his people will do the same!
We know about the shares Ally, we know about your salary Ally, did you ever get a sizeable EBT Ally?
Bryce, I wonder, have you ever been to Scotland? Your discourse seems to me to be based on some image of what Rangers might represent. Greenock Jack and Ryan are quite evidently Rangers supporters and understand the nuances of life in Glasgow whereas your insight seems to me to on a par with Gazza’s who just didn’t know what he was dealing with. I disagree with Ryan and TSFM on you – I think you have no interest in Scottish football, how it’s run or covered by the Scottish media. I’m reluctant to make such accusations this site, but. it looks to me as if it’s all a baiting game for you, trolling in effect.
“Rangers” are culturally significant in that they represent a fading aspect of reactionary Scotland from the industrial era. That which will maintain it is aleady gone, or dying. Latterly it was sustained by a credit bubble.
In a 21st century Scotland where there is a significant pro-independence minority, where there are a significant number of citizens who were born in Eastern Europe and England, and there is legislation to tackle discrimination on many grounds, the idea that a dysfunctional football club represents something sacred to a sense of Scottish nationhood is risible.
Rangers International Football Club PLC is a holding company, not a football club.
It’s wholly owned subsidiary The Rangers Football Club Ltd is a football club, which is not only wholly owned by it, but also heavily in debt to it.
RIFC PLC has many shareholders, TRFC Ltd has one shareholder.
RIFC PLC could sell TRFC Ltd any time it wanted. Though presumably it would want to sell it for at least the amount of money it was currently owed, perhaps even a bit more. Alternatively if there was no buyer willing to pay that price it could voluntarily liquidate the Ltd company, dispose of it’s assets and collect the proceeds. It could even sell the trading arm, the actual footballing side of the business but keep the assets to satisfy the debt.
The point is, RIFC PLC is not a football club, it owns one. It is important to remember that the PLC is responsible to it’s shareholders, not to it’s customers.
rougvielovesthejungle says: (69) December 1, 2013 at 12:28 pm
…
I utterly despise the bloke, and surely when the truth eventually outs, his people will do the same!
We know about the shares Ally, we know about your salary Ally, did you ever get a sizeable EBT Ally?
====================
‘Absolutely’ rltj.
I was shocked when the ‘cheeky chappie’ mask slipped over the last couple of years.
And along with the The Rangers new club reinforcement – we shouldn’t ever forget McCoist’s “who are these people” rabble rousing – and subsequent fire torching threat to Raith Rovers and a family put under police protection in their own home.
And when he does walk away from TRFC he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a TV studio.
On banners and protests.
Football clubs have no option, they must enforce UEFA rules in relation to political protests / demonstrations. If they fail to do that then they are taken to task by the governing body and have sanctions imposed on them.
In reality they must also consider the opinions of the majority of their fans when deciding what is acceptable and what isn’t. If a majority do not want protests /demonstrations or anything else unrelated to football then they must act on that as well.
Lastly, and from a purely commercial perspective they must consider the view of their sponsors. In short, would those sponsors want associated with particular “causes”. If the answer is no then that is another reason why they must do something to prevent political displays.
Whether the football stadium is considered a public place or not is really not a defence of unacceptable behaviour. In fact being a public place makes people’s behaviour more open to constraint. Behaviours which would be considered acceptable in private would not necessarily be considered acceptable in public.
RyanGosling says: (114)
December 1, 2013 at 10:15 am
I agreed with a lot of what you said except for …
… weāre finally getting rangers fans engaging here..
Sadly Ryan I don’t think we are.
I think we are just one small part of an integrated media management plan.
Pre-eminent means superior to all others.
It really is just a euphemistic way of saying “we are the people”.
I find it intriguing that anyone would think that a business which ran at a Ā£14m trading loss, carried out it’s trade in the third tier, and did not have the biggest customer base would consider that business pre-eminent.
Is there any truth in the rumour that Jim McColl is starting to distance himself from “the requisitioners”. I don’t think there is any co-incidence that it seems to have started in the immediate aftermath of the meeting with supporters, which was broadcast live via YouTube.
Could Mr McColl be concerned about his own reputation. Paedophile “jokes” and calls for getting a banned anthem back are surely not the types of thing he wants his name associated with. Certainly not in public.
Behind closed doors is clearly a matter for him, but in the glare of the public eye, maybe not. Though to be fair there hasn’t been very much publicity given to it. Certainly not on the scale of a bad joke regarding an impressionist and former prime minister.
Just seen the banner from the Aberdeen fans at the steps of Hampden in condemnation of the 3 Amigo’s.
This is the type of banner that needs to be displayed at every game in front of the camera’s.
Apologies as I cannot seem to post the link, can anyone else post it.?
‘None so blind as those who refuse to see’
‘Ogilvie,Doncaster, Regan, We know what you have done.
‘The Truth will out.’
Well done the Dandy Dons
Tif Finn @ 2.06pm
I made comment about mr McColl’s body language immediately after watching the ‘forum’ the other night, he looked mighty uncomfortable š # seeing the light š
Lord Wobbly says: (977)
December 1, 2013 at 11:41 am
” in my experience, those Rangers fans who engage in that agenda care little for their supposed Protestant faith and are only interested in Catholic and Irish bashing.”
+++++++
I think the above is very true however but unfortunately exists on the other side. I recall going to matches in the late 70’s early 80’s listening to guy shouting about the man in Rome and thinking “bet you have never seen the inside of a church in your life”. When JP11 came to Glasgow that mob were there shouting his name as they did at football matches none the wiser that they were actually attending an open air mass.
john clarke says: (1409)
December 1, 2013 at 11:23 am
6 0 Rate This
Just re-reading the FTTT decision and have come across this paragraph, which I find intriguing enough to prompt me to ask:
Does anyone know, as a matter of fact, whether any of the player-recipients of EBT payments was for any disciplinary offence fined by the SFA at any time while being in receipt? And if so, how much that fine might have been?
If he had a side-letter, then presumably the fine would have some relationship only to his declared earnings-and therefore would have been less than it perhaps ought to have been.
And, if the player was one of the top players, the fine-setters would surely have noticed the relatively low declared earnings, with some scepticism?
ā161.
Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-lettersshould not be registered. Non-registration of sideāletters was incompatible with both authoritiesā policing and disciplinary powers. For example,
any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non-disclosure would
thwart the authoritiesā powers.ā
Youāll find this on p.38 at this link http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6850/TC02372.pdf
========================
John,
good point, one i have mused upon numerous time over the last few years as the “SIDE-LETTERS” subject was revealed in its details.
Significantly, for any disciplinary situation from inside the RFC (IL) or outside from the SPL/SFA or UEFA the effect of a maximum fine ( i think two weeks wages) was not the real effect it should have been.
Especially in the latter years where for many players, the majority of their salary was paid through EBT.
Buddy
Tif Finn says: (917)
December 1, 2013 at 1:22 pm
8 0 Rate This
On banners and protests.
Football clubs have no option, they must enforce UEFA rules in relation to political protests / demonstrations. If they fail to do that then they are taken to task by the governing body and have sanctions imposed on them.
========================
Fair enough……
Surely UEFA will apply their rules fully in all occasions ?
So UEFA have conveniently forgot the whole RFC(IL) registration of players issue?
To this day this is one of the great imponderables, why another European club has not pursued the loss their club incurred due to the cheating of RFC(IL).
Buddy
Tif Finn says: (917)
December 1, 2013 at 2:06 pm
===============================
I’d be amazed if McColl is not beginning to feel a tad uncomfortable. After all, he is the only ‘requisitioner’ who is not tainted in some way. The clear desire not to move on from a supremacist stance may not sit well with a man who will have to do business with people considered to be an underclass by many involved in Rangers and their support.
http://videocelts.com/2013/12/blogs/fans/aberdeen-fans-take-sevco-protest-to-hampden
Dons protest at Hampden.
Raison dāetre
RTC
I have information on Rangers’ tax case, and I will use this blog to provide the details of what Rangers FC have done, why it was illegal, and what the implications are for one of the largest football clubs in Britain.
TSFM
Asking the questions the media wonāt ask.
Just a reminder. š
I was frustrated and annoyed listening to the BBC commentator last night during the Falkirk game. He kept referring to the number of times the teams had met etc thus further endorsing that you can stuff everybody, not pay your taxes, get liquidated, but hey! that doesn’t matter business as usual
Rangers/TRFC were/are undoubtedly culturally important WITHIN Scotland; but not TO Scotland. They are important solely to a culture WITHIN our multi-cultural society. Rangers, like and due to the culture they embody, is malevolent, and a shame and disgrace to our country and it’s people.
I’d like to issue a challenge, to anyone, to make a post setting out the things they would consider good about the culture that is manifest within Rangers and their followers! Try to explain it’s relevance and value to a modern day Scotland, or world even. Perhaps explain how it enhances the lives of those who adhere to it. Perhaps you might give consideration to the benefits our society has gained from it, where we might be today if it had never existed. Where might Rangers be today if that culture had never existed? (I’d suggest making as good a fist of European football as Celtic, but perhaps you might think they wouldn’t have been as big as Celtic without it, and so find justification there!)
How about it Bryce, GJ…?
NB I’m not asking anyone to say what is good about individual people, or even groups or good deeds carried out, at Rangers/TRFC or from within their support, just concentrate on ‘The Culture’ itself.
Tif Finn says: (917)
December 1, 2013 at 2:06 pm
#######
Mr McColl had his eyes opened when he met with full frontal rangersnessness.
From a UEFA perspective there is little point in taking any action against Rangers with regard their cheating in Europe, the club doesn’t exist any more and it would be a waste of time and effort.
As to other clubs taking action, again it would really be a waste of time and effort. Who would they take any action against and what would they seek to achieve.
It is perhaps galling that the record has not been put straight but it would really be throwing good money after bad trying to do anything about it. Teams like Hearts have enough issues to deal with just now (and good on their support for dealing with them) to get involved in what would essentially be a waste of time and money.
Allyjambo says: (677)
December 1, 2013 at 2:46 pm
I can foresee silence, like tumbleweed blowing down the road.
Or perhaps one or two of Jim McColl’s advisers / friends have said to him “Do you realise what that made you look like. Do you really want your name tarnished in this way”
As he himself said he has responsibilities to other investors. Some of whom may not be impressed by that sort of behaviour.
Allyjambo are you not watching the game ?
Wild speculation on Scottish Cup draw?
=================================
Assuming Celtic win today…
And assuming that the Cup draw is not ‘seeded’.
There has been a ‘theme’ in the DR yesterday and today wrt TRFC meeting Celtic in the Cup.
Yet it sounds like TRFC had to rely on their superior, full-time fitness to get late goals against plucky part-timers at Falkirk.
If TRFC is paired against any top league team in the next round they could really struggle and risk elimination.
From a TRFC perspective – IMO – the best outcome is to get Celtic next.
They might get humped – but TRFC could leverage the run up to the game for all it’s worth to shout at everyone that their club is still relevant.
So wild speculation: TRFC get Celtic in the draw.
Rangers need cash, therefore they need games.
A cup run is essential to them, and if possible home games meaning they can get bigger crowds and bring money in.
Cashflow is everything to a business with no credit facility.
Brenda says: (718)
December 1, 2013 at 2:22 pm
15 2 Rate This
Tif Finn @ 2.06pm
I made comment about mr McCollās body language immediately after watching the āforumā the other night, he looked mighty uncomfortable # seeing the light
———
I agree. Appeared like someone who had looked at a childhood memory from a great distance and then suddenly, once up close, realized it wasn’t what he thought it had been.
StevieBC- Falkirk are not part timers.
Tif Finn says: (919)
December 1, 2013 at 3:12 pm
4 0 Rate This
From a UEFA perspective there is little point in taking any action against Rangers with regard their cheating in Europe, the club doesnāt exist any more and it would be a waste of time and effort.
As to other clubs taking action, again it would really be a waste of time and effort. Who would they take any action against and what would they seek to achieve.
It is perhaps galling that the record has not been put straight but it would really be throwing good money after bad trying to do anything about it. Teams like Hearts have enough issues to deal with just now (and good on their support for dealing with them) to get involved in what would essentially be a waste of time and money.
============================================
That’s a good point.
Because
If Sevco and Rangers (in Liquidation) were indeed the same Club
Then Sevco/Rangers would indeed have a case to answer
– but they Don’t
The reason . . . Sevco are a different Club
It is always worth remembering that Rangers, in the mind of their fans, exist as two entities in one.
One of them is the same club, with the same titles, trophies and history.
The other is a new club which does not owe people tens of millions of pounds and cannot be held responsible for the cheating of it’s predecessor.
It’s not a bad position to be in.
Sevco directors are reportedly ’embarrassed’ by their supporters who who burned part if the Falkirk pitch yesterday with a flare!!!!… Don’t know whether I’m more puzzled by the fact that they’re admitting wrong-doing by the peepil or that it is actually being reported in the msm. Attention Mr Lunny š
Falkirk will send a bill to Rangers for the repair of their artificial pitch after a visiting fan threw a flare during the clubs’ Scottish Cup match.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Will the SFA take action ?
Will UEFA take action ?
Malicious damage – v – banner – hmmmmm
RG thanks for correction re: full-time players at Falkirk.
Rob McLean genuinely just used the phrase ‘the roof fell in’ regarding the Hearts v Celtic drubbing. I always suspected he wasn’t the brightest but that is a new low. Fool.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/falkirk-fury-mindless-rangers-fans-2870654
Falkirk fury at ‘mindless’ Rangers fans who burned their pitch with a flare
A CHUNK of Falkirk’s Ā£450,000 synthetic pitch burned out inside the penalty area during their 2-0 Scottish Cup defeat to the Ibrox side, with manager Gary Holt and general director David White livid over the damage.
RANGERS fans were branded āmindlessā Āyesterday for melting Falkirkās synthetic pitch by Āthrowing a flare on to it.
A chunk of astroturf burned out inside the penalty area during their 2-0 ĀScottish Cup win over the Bairns. Falkirk paid Dutch firm ĀGreenfields Ā£450,000 for the pitch in the summer and manager Gary Holt was livid with the hooligans who damaged it.
He said: āIām not happy about it. Itās mindless people who come sometimes and want to be disruptive.
āOur club is not happy. But what can Rangers do about it? It doesnāt make it right but you canāt ban Āeveryone from coming to a game.ā
Falkirkās general manager David White agreed.
He said: āThe Rangers directors in the boardroom were Āembarrassed about the situation and have Āapologised for a brand new pitch being wasted by a moment of Āmadness. They have assured us they will pay for the damage caused by their supporters.
āWe have a game on Tuesday night and we hope to get them to repair it before then.ā
Rangers said: āThese devices are dangerous and represent a real risk to fans, players and match officials.
āThe club are investigating and will be supporting the police with their inquiries.ā
Allyjambo says: (677)
December 1, 2013 at 2:46 pm
Rangers/TRFC were/are undoubtedly culturally important WITHIN Scotland; but not TO Scotland. They are important solely to a culture WITHIN our multi-cultural society. Rangers, like and due to the culture they embody, is malevolent, and a shame and disgrace to our country and itās people.
Iād like to issue a challenge, to anyone, to make a post setting out the things they would consider good about the culture that is manifest within Rangers and their followers! Try to explain itās relevance and value to a modern day Scotland, or world even. Perhaps explain how it enhances the lives of those who adhere to it. Perhaps you might give consideration to the benefits our society has gained from it, where we might be today if it had never existed. Where might Rangers be today if that culture had never existed? (Iād suggest making as good a fist of European football as Celtic, but perhaps you might think they wouldnāt have been as big as Celtic without it, and so find justification there!)
How about it Bryce, GJā¦?
NB Iām not asking anyone to say what is good about individual people, or even groups or good deeds carried out, at Rangers/TRFC or from within their support, just concentrate on āThe Cultureā itself.
===========================================================
An excellent post Alyjambo and it certainly has taken your mind off the football š
I must admit to never seeing the relevance of the supposed Rangers ‘culture’ to Scotland as a whole and, in any case, it’s fading writ IMO runs only in tightly defined geographic areas of Scotland which invariably have a historical association with long-ago events in another country.
In a sense the SMSM whose own business model is in freefall and disappearing in relevance, just like the Rangers culture, is desperately casting around trying to resurrect interest in Rangers to extract a lifesaving cash bonanza from the now gone Old Firm. The SMSM are blowing the Rangers ‘culture trumpet’ or should than be beating a Lambeg Drum to try and save their dismal demise accelerated by their discredited culture of lazy, poor and biased journalism.
It’s too late for the SMSM especially in terms of print journalism and I honestly believe that many Rangers fans have taken a tumble to themselves and more will do so shortly. The culture merchants will remain of course and the wagons will be circled even tighter in the Ibrox laager – but that stridency comes at a price and many more decent fans will be following McColl in walkiing away IMO.
Tif Finn says: (922)
December 1, 2013 at 5:14 pm
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/falkirk-fury-mindless-rangers-fans-2870654
Falkirk fury at āmindlessā Rangers fans who burned their pitch with a flare
==============================================================
Love the offishal Rangers quote: ‘These devices are dangerous and represent a real risk to fans, players and match officials.’
And obviously to ‘pitches’ as well š
However, more seriously, I hope there’s enough money left in the Ibrox kitty to pay for repairs.
Araminta Moonbeam QC says: (24)
December 1, 2013 at 5:10 pm
Rob McLean genuinely just used the phrase āthe roof fell inā regarding the Hearts v Celtic drubbing. I always suspected he wasnāt the brightest but that is a new low. Fool.
======================================================================
I honestly couldn’t believe my ears and did someone else not repeat the phrase right afterwards. I wasn’t watching at that stage but just listening on my wireless headphones.
At least the fans and players observed an impeccable silence before the game in memory of those who have died and were injured in Friday’s terrible incident.
I really don’t get it about Rangers “culture”. As far as I can see, there is no such thing as “Rangers Culture”. Rangers’ only claim to uniqueness is that they are a counter-Celtic. They – uniquely in Scottish Football – brought nothing positive to the table. Their identity was a totally negative one which deliberately proscribed a fifth of the population of the country. Certainly unique, but culture?
One ironic observation I remember making a couple of decades ago was when Avi Cohen played for Rangers. He could not play one weekend due to the feast of Yom Kippur – yet despite the absence of any such reservations over feast days (the curious case of Fish Friday excepted) – no such respect was afforded to fellow Christians (if I read the ethos of Rangers to be correct, I believe they imagined themselves a Christian institution).
Until the 1920s, Rangers were a fairly run of the mill club with no pre-eminent status in Scotland. Now they are no longer a club. The irony is that this is the ethos, the ethos of negativity, that people would now embrace when the opportunity to move into the twenty-first century presented itself.
Call it what it you like, but ffs don’t pretend it’s culture.
“The Blue Order”, a prominent group within the Rangers’ support have a mission statement. I suppose that in a way sets out their “culture”
You can see the details on their website.
http://www.theblueorder.co.uk/images/stories/demo/tbo_mission_statement_2012_b.jpg
It’s interesting that they have precluded Northern Ireland. I would have thought that was an important part of their “traditions”, given the amount of time they spend singing about events there.
buddy_holly says: (77)
December 1, 2013 at 2:34 pm
john clarke says: (1409)
December 1, 2013 at 11:23 am
Just re-reading the FTTT decision and have come across this paragraph, which I find intriguing enough to prompt me to ask:
Does anyone know, as a matter of fact, whether any of the player-recipients of EBT payments was for any disciplinary offence fined by the SFA at any time while being in receipt? And if so, how much that fine might have been?
If he had a side-letter, then presumably the fine would have some relationship only to his declared earnings-and therefore would have been less than it perhaps ought to have been.
And, if the player was one of the top players, the fine-setters would surely have noticed the relatively low declared earnings, with some scepticism?
ā161.
Side-letters, of course, had not been registered with the football authorities, the SFA and SPL. The spirit of their rules was that the whole contract terms should be registered. Suspiciously, no evidence was led as to who decided that the benefits in terms of the side-lettersshould not be registered. Non-registration of sideāletters was incompatible with both authoritiesā policing and disciplinary powers. For example,
any fines imposed on players would customarily reflect the disclosed wage. Non-disclosure would
thwart the authoritiesā powers.ā
Youāll find this on p.38 at this link http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6850/TC02372.pdf
========================
Good point, one i have mused upon numerous time over the last few years as the āSIDE-LETTERSā subject was revealed in its details. Significantly, for any disciplinary situation from inside the RFC (IL) or outside from the SPL/SFA or UEFA the effect of a maximum fine ( i think two weeks wages) was not the real effect it should have been. Especially in the latter years where for many players, the majority of their salary was paid through EBT.
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It is a good point and I have often wondered about the insurance aspect for paying injured players – obviously their salary level would be a major determinany in calculating the premium to be paid.
I have no proof of this but in view of what could be quite an onerous financial burden on a club I would wager that the full ‘wage’ including EBTs would have been declared to the insurer. I would have thought that the SPL in preparing its case to LNS might have explored that avenue by asking the insurer or HMRC could have done so for the FTTT.
Obviously if the full wage (including EBT element) was declared then that would dissipate the tattered fiction that the EBTs were ‘loans’. However I have no doubt that the UTT will eventually get there in the New Year.
Who was that singing the BB tune at the Hearts – Celtic game, then? Words sounded to me like “Ha-ha, Ha-ha, ha ha ha ha ha ha”.
Could it have been the mischievous Celtic fans poking a little fun, knowing that many TRFC fans see Hearts as their wee pet club in the East?
Anyways, Rangers at Pittodrie in the next round, please.
Commiserations to Allyjambo and his mates – I know how it feels. Let’s hope they don’t do an Aberdeen job on you and put 9 in the onion bag next time! š
Rangers never made loans to anyone.
They made payments into sub-trusts. Those sub trusts were for the benefit of specific people. Those are not repayable and are not loans.
It was the sub trust which made the “loans” to the beneficiary. By definition the trustees were totally independent of Rangers.
Angus – not a new thing to sing TBB tune with words HA HA – Celtic also used to sing it against our old rivals RFC-NIL – this one was from 2011…….
Hearts fans that sit in the corner next to Celtic fans always have TBB tune on their song sheet too so perhaps was directed at them…..and there is no intentions nor need to send any message to Sevco as they are currently as relevant to us as Accrington Stanley (apologies to any Accrington folks!) due to the fact we have yet to meet them in any capacity,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2yB9et7kSQ
Tif Finn says: (924)
December 1, 2013 at 5:56 pm
Rangers never made loans to anyone. They made payments into sub-trusts. Those sub trusts were for the benefit of specific people. Those are not repayable and are not loans. It was the sub trust which made the āloansā to the beneficiary. By definition the trustees were totally independent of Rangers.
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I think if you look at my post you will see that I put the word loans in quotes and I would have thought that made my meaning clear – however that wasn’t the main point I was making which I believe is quite possibly important re the insurance issue and how the premiums were calculated.
However on a wider point I would observe that you seem to follow the legalistic ‘line’ of the majority FTT decision and have not given due consideration and weight to that of Poone the dissenting voice of reason and practicality. If you had you would have no doubt noticed that when the first set of trustees took a decision that Rangers didn’t like then they were replaced by a second more amenable set of trustees. So I’m afraid I just cannot accept your statement that the trustees were independent.
I also have no doubt that the Poone position will be vindicated and upheld at the next stage.
Tif Finn says: (924)
December 1, 2013 at 5:40 pm
āThe Blue Orderā, a prominent group within the Rangersā support have a mission statement. I suppose that in a way sets out their ācultureā
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Apart from the overt Britishness and Protestantism, could be any other club in the country. Clearly a counter statement to what they imagine Celtic to be – incorrectly of course.
I think Celtic – since they were founded by Irish immigrants have certainly doffed a cap in the direction of the Irish Sea. As far as I know, Hibs, Dundee United and St Johnstone can also trace their provenance to the same source. Again as far as I know there is no established religious attachment to any club in Scotland aside from the blue Order view of Rangers.
My guess though is that an affiliation with Protestantism is not exactly unique in post Reformation Scotland. My sense is that the secularism of twenty-first century Scotland is most definitely caught in a time-warp.
Maybe, on reflection, the Ibrox fans might have really been quite lucky with the board members of their clubs. They may have had all manner of ne’er-do-wells climbing the marble stairs, but at least none of them have publicly stated that their fans could die as soon as they like!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25174266
Why would anyone describe the people who formed Celtic as immigrants.
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland at the time. They were no more immigrants than someone who moved from Wales to England or from England to Scotland.
Well Done Aberdeen fans
https://twitter.com/VoiceAndColour/status/407131705959411713/photo/1/large
Edited to put photo link rather than search link
HMRC will win their appeal on the basis that what Rangers made were contractual payments, the “loan” thing is an absolute “red herring”, as is the independence of the trustees.
No, in fact the trustees independence thing was actually just a lie. They should have been independent (by definition) however if they had been and the “loans” had been discretionary, then no player or agent would have agreed to it.
The payments were contractual and agreed in advance. That could not have been done if the “loans” were discretionary and decided upon by an independent trustee.
HMRC will win, if not at the UTT then in Court.
ecobhoy says: (2067)
December 1, 2013 at 6:13 pm
” If you had you would have no doubt noticed that when the first set of trustees took a decision that Rangers didnāt like then they were replaced by a second more amenable set of trustees. So Iām afraid I just cannot accept your statement that the trustees were independent.”
Exactly, I’m sure the Ranger’s board wouldn’t have stopped until they found trustees who had “independently” come to the same view as themselves.
It’s a trait that lives on in the latest incarnation with respect to NOMADS,
However, I think it will bite them when the UTT gets round to considering the issues.
Tif Finn says: (926)
December 1, 2013 at 6:19 pm
Why would anyone describe the people who formed Celtic as immigrants.
Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland at the time. They were no more immigrants than someone who moved from Wales to England or from England to Scotland.
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Thank you TF, but I am aware of that. The “immigrant” description was meant in its widest sense, and not a narrow political one.
ecobhoy says: (2067)
December 1, 2013 at 5:41 pm
I recall discussing the issue of insurance pay outs for injured Rangers players on RTC. There is a potential that fraud has been committed if an individual has claimed that an employee officially earned Ā£x however his actually contracted salary may have been Ā£Y. Do we know which insurance company provided cover for Rangers and was it done through an insurance broker or directly with the insurer. If you knew that a certain player was injured and was also a recipient of an EBT would a note to that insurance company be of benefit ?
Rabo Karabekian says: (28)
December 1, 2013 at 6:31 pm
The poet Edwin Muir used to speak of his family emigrating to Glasgow from Orkney, so I don’t have a problem with your usage. However, in terms of strict accuracy, it should be noted that much of what is regarded as “Rangers Culture”, was imported along with “immigrant” shipyard workers from Belfast.
Exiled Celt says: (826)
December 1, 2013 at 6:25 pm
6 0 Rate This
Well Done Aberdeen fans
https://twitter.com/VoiceAndColour/status/407131705959411713/photo/1/large
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That’s brilliant but will it get any coverage in the compliant msm?
scapaflow says: (1220)
However, in terms of strict accuracy, it should be noted that much of what is regarded as āRangers Cultureā, was imported along with āimmigrantā shipyard workers from Belfast.
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Absolutely
I do not recognise and had no experience of this ‘culture’ growing up in my part of Scotland.
Surely for insurance purposes Rangers would have to have treated payments into EBTs in the same way that they treated bonus payments, as a potential payment rather than an agreed one.
If they considered them contractual then the EBT failed before it even started.
So the only way to do it, and still make the EBT work would be to tell the insurance company about.
1, Contractual payment.
2, Contractual bonuses, depending on targets being made.
3, Potential loans from a third party, at the discretion of that third party.
However would an insurance company cover 3. Why would they provide cover against someone not being granted a loan by a third party. That doesn’t really make much sense.
On the insurance thing. I remember saying on RTC that a simple place for an ambitious media hound to start was to find an EBT recipient who was long term injured and therefore would have had an insurance claim. The delicious irony being that it would not take a massive leap of imagination to believe the worlds greatest administrator might have signed the claim. Yes, the insurance company would have hidden behind confidentiality, I don’t suppose there would have been many more premiums out of Ibrox if they’d leaked the info. But then we’ve all seen the Sun DR exclusives where they say “this is what we think, now its up to you to deny it” Idea never seemed to catch on though!
Just on UTT by the way. Did we not learn the hard way the last time about false expectations on done deals?
Smugas says: (582)
December 1, 2013 at 6:54 pm
True, but then there’s the AAM result….. Still the legal system is no stranger to perverse rullings
I see some people are at it again, asking the Celtic players who they would like to get in the next round, has anyone ever answered that question when asked? I don’t believe for a second they are interested if Celtic would like to meet an in form, free scoring Dundee Utd or tough away match at Pittodrie.
Anyway, I would like someone to ask the manager or players at Celtic if it would nice to be drawn against their oldest rivals…..
A simple response like “yes, that would have been great”
WRT EBTs,salaries etc,
I seem to recall RFCs goalkeeper at the time claiming in his divorce case that he only earned Ā£1k per week.
This was in the days of GazzA,Laudrup Butcher and Co.
briggsbhoy says: (760)
December 1, 2013 at 6:37 pm
ecobhoy says: (2067)
December 1, 2013 at 5:41 pm
I recall discussing the issue of insurance pay outs for injured Rangers players on RTC. There is a potential that fraud has been committed if an individual has claimed that an employee officially earned Ā£x however his actually contracted salary may have been Ā£Y. Do we know which insurance company provided cover for Rangers and was it done through an insurance broker or directly with the insurer. If you knew that a certain player was injured and was also a recipient of an EBT would a note to that insurance company be of benefit ?
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Tbh I think any insurance company would be mindful of possible adverse publicity and protecting its employees as a priority so I think they would regard it as water under the bridge.
The reason the premium calculation link is important IMO is that there might be an interesting paper-trail to be exposed. Especially if some of those involved in making and substantiating any insurance claim or info used for underwriting purposes might genuinely not have known about the EBT aspect if they were low in the Ibrox admin pecking order.
But there might be some above that leve. who have sworn on oath that they knew nothing of the EBTs. Wouldn’t it be interesting if they were involved in an insurance claim or even just supplying info to cakculate the premium using gross wages – including EBTs – as how could they submit that figure as part of a wage unless they knew aboiut the EBTs because it presumably wouldn’t show in the PAYE records.
Also not necessarily only dodgy if a claim is made at the actual wage (including EBTs) but also in submission info on propsal forms and at renewals. They might have been a clever plan of course as it may well have been a group policy for all players and therefore just a global wages figure submitted (excluding EBTs). Of course if a claim was later made regarding an EBT recipient then their claim could be for an EBT inflated wage.
But surely that would be criminal? Possibly and surely the Dignity club which has a culture of paying taxes not would never act in such an underhand manner which most defo isn’t uberrimae fidei ā
briggsbhoy says: (760)
December 1, 2013 at 6:37 pm
2 0 Rate This
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Like the rest of you, I remember that being mentioned too ā player insurance & EBTs. I thought there had been a mention of an individual case, but it was possibly your conjecture (Smugas) that I’m thinking of.
Fascinating for sure, and has this not been … well, thoroughly investigated, not least by the SFA?
Bearing in mind this is an organisation which can accept the conclusion that stealing tax and using that money to pay players you could otherwise not afford, and failing to tell the governing body about all payments, would not lead to a sporting advantage.
So they are hardly going to be investigating possible issues with regard insurance and comparing what an insurance company was told to what they were told and what the tax collecting authority was told.
This tweet yesterday actually really got on my goat given
A – all teams were
And
B – They weren’t even at home
@itvfootball RT @itvnews: Rangers FC to observe minute’s silence for helicopter crash victims http://t.co/hKL9IKKsa0
scapaflow says: (1221)
December 1, 2013 at 6:43 pm
Rabo Karabekian says: (28)
December 1, 2013 at 6:31 pm
The poet Edwin Muir used to speak of his family emigrating to Glasgow from Orkney, so I donāt have a problem with your usage. However, in terms of strict accuracy, it should be noted that much of what is regarded as āRangers Cultureā, was imported along with āimmigrantā shipyard workers from Belfast.
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Most certainly Catholics in NI didn’t get a job in Harland & Wolff so could never be an immigrant through that route. Still to even have a glimmer of understanding as to the ‘culture’ issue some basics have to be understood.
The earlier waves of immigration from Northern Ireland were driven by the various famines of the 1800s and it’s always worth remembering that hunger affected the poor across the religious divide irrespective of religion although because of the prevailing culture in NI Catholics tended to make-up the biggest percentage of the poor and therefore more of them moved to Scotland than Protestants.
Obviously many Irish Catholics and some Irish Protestants didn’t regard themselves as ‘British’ but as irish who had been conquered by an invading colonial power in the shape of England.
The 1800s immigrants to Scotland are viewed in a negative light by some today in our still benighted Scotland which displays their ignorance of economic history. Glasgow was a Mecca for irish Immigration because of the Industrial Revolution which created a huge boost in manufacting industries and saw the population of the ‘dear green place’ explode to feed the insatiable maw of the new industries for cheap labour. In fact Glasgow became the 2nd City in the British Empire such was the growth experienced.
An easy choice – either stay in Ireland and die of starvation with your family or take a chance and head to Scotland. Quite simply economic migration which is as old as time or some would argue it as ‘asylum’ as it really was a life-saving move.
However going back to Harland & Wolff I remember a leading Unionist politician say once in a private remark that it might have been better to have given the Catholics jobs there because their exclusion left them continually building icebergs.
That’s why I believe we need a multicultural and inclusive Scotland – with equality of opportunity for all – and we can have that whether we are independent or remain part of the Union. All it takes is the will and the sweeping away of outmoded tribal loyalties.
Tif Finn says: (928)
December 1, 2013 at 7:42 pm
Bearing in mind this is an organisation which can accept the conclusion that stealing tax and using that money to pay players you could otherwise not afford, and failing to tell the governing body about all payments, would not lead to a sporting advantage.
So they are hardly going to be investigating possible issues with regard insurance and comparing what an insurance company was told to what they were told and what the tax collecting authority was told.
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Yes but Hector is well capable of making such inquiries and getting answers ā
ecobhoy says: (2069)
December 1, 2013 at 7:59 pm
True, the point I was trying to make, all be it badly, was that the immigrant club thing either applies to both Rangers and Celtic or to neither
Smugas says: (582)
December 1, 2013 at 6:54 pm
Did we not learn the hard way the last time about false expectations on done deals?
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Yes but Tbh who could ever have predicted the Bryson checkmate?
That’s why all the rulebook navel-gazing over the OCNC issue is merely an intellectual exercise. The rule books only mean what the SFA or SPFL want them to at any given moment and even if the situation can’t be covered by an exisiting rule then one can just be made-up to order.
ecobhoy says: (2071)
December 1, 2013 at 8:08 pm
So, it’s Humpty Dumpty who really runs the SFA? Ok, I suppose we are already a long way through the looking glass….
Tif Finn says: (928)
December 1, 2013 at 4:20 pm
It is always worth remembering that Rangers, in the mind of their fans, exist as two entities in one.
One of them is the same club, with the same titles, trophies and history.
The other is a new club which does not owe people tens of millions of pounds and cannot be held responsible for the cheating of itās predecessor.
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I was just watching a trailer for the new ‘Walter Mitty’ film. There was a scene in it of where the main character was playing football. I wonder if he is a follower of a team in blue from Glasgow by any chance?