On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
Danish Pastry says: (1758)
December 4, 2013 at 12:16 pm
But yesterday, mixed with the Keevins’ patronizing were some sincere fans who were very concerned about the present, and for the future. Starting at about 29min in there was a call from one of the founders of the Sons of Struth. Everything else aside, he came across as someone who was hurting enough to act, and to take aim at those who are actually hurting his club.
——————————————-
I believe that caller was founder member himself Mr Chugg.
Look him up and see if you think he should be regarded as a ‘decent’ Sevco supporter.
Tif Finn says: (947)
December 4, 2013 at 1:59 pm
This has got to be a joke
• We will never sell the stadium. We will ring-fence the assets to ensure this can never happen again. This is our home and will always remain our home.
• We are committed to fan representation on the board
• No director (including his/her family members or close business associates) shall have any financial interest in any contract involving the club.
• We will undertake to ensure that all executive directors’ salaries and bonuses are approved by the renumeration committee and subject to market benchmarking
• We will undertake to ensure that all shareholders are treated equally
• We will undertake to ensure that there is total transparency in all club affairs
• There will be no long-term debt
• All non-executive director fees are to be waived unless the club is in Europe
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/latest/gang-of-four-rangers-rebels-issue-charter-1-3220011
====================================
This so-called ‘eight point charter’ should be called the ‘Stating the bleedin’ obvious charter’ – except for 2 points.
– ‘Never sell the stadium’
Never say never, and as mentioned previously it probably wouldn’t be that simple / feasible to guarantee anyway, e.g. via a trust.
– ‘No long-term debt’
Yes, if the club/company cannot secure a line of credit currently then this objective should be easy to achieve ! However, if anyone was daft enough to offer long-term debt to the Govan club, I really don’t think it would be refused.
The AGM – if it happens – will be great fun… 🙄
Does anyone know if it will be streamed live online ?
“Regarding a future insolvency event down Ibrox way, I believe it is Section E of the SPFL rules that is relevant. However (and I apologise for repeating this), my reading is that the rules refer to Insolvency Events further to an initial insolvency event in terms of these rules . As such an Insolvency Event would be the first in terms of the SPFL rules, it would attract a penalty of 15 points (and the New Club/Old Club debate would be body-swerved)”
I believe this is the main reason for the ridiculous haste in league reconstruction, which has taken us from 1 league of 12 and 3 leagues of 10 to …… 1 league of 12 and 3 leagues of 10. There was no real consultation or thought went into the rapid reconstruction and I have always wondered why. Obviously the move to 1 league body is a step in the right direction but the lack of reshaping of the leagues coupled with the “once in a lifetime” threat of not agreeing, left me very suspicious of the logic, (or lack of) for the change.
I see the Evening Times has commissioned a YouGov poll to ask whether people in Scotland miss regular Old Firm games. The headline says:
“Poll: We Miss Old Firm Games”
The summary says:
“A clear majority of people believe senior football in Scotland has been diminished by the loss of regular Old Firm matches between Celtic and Rangers.”
The actual question asked of 1,200 respondents was:
“Would you say the SPL is better or worse off without regular Old Firm matches between Celtic and Rangers?”
And the actual responses were:
18% Much worse
18% Somewhat worse
14% Neither better nor worse
10% Somewhat better
9% Much better
31% No opinion
First of all, the question that was asked does not align very well with the claim in the headline. Secondly, I am not sure how 36% adds up to the clear majority mentioned in the article summary. Surely the key finding is that 64% – a real clear majority – either don’t care about the loss of Rangers or think the SPL was no worse off without them?
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/u/poll-we-miss-old-firm-matches.1386170306
The Herald [or Irvine], is at it !
========================
“SPL is damaged by loss of Old Firm games, poll finds
Wednesday 4 December 2013
A clear majority of people believe senior football in Scotland has been diminished by the loss of regular Old Firm matches between Celtic and Rangers.
…The temporary demise of the Old Firm has provoked a mixed reaction among football fans…
YouGov asked almost 1200 Scots: “Would you say the SPL is better or worse off without regular Old Firm matches between Celtic and Rangers?”
In total, 36% said the SPL was worse, split evenly between “much worse” and “somewhat worse”. A total of 19% said it was better – with 10% saying “somewhat better” and 9% “much better”. A further 14% said neither better nor worse, while 31% didn’t express an opinion.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, the loss of the fixtures is felt most keenly in the west of Scotland. There, and in the central and south Scotland regions, the total “worse” rating jumped up to as high as 48%, while the “better” verdict fell as low as 12%…”
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/spl-is-damaged-by-loss-of-old-firm-games-poll-finds.1386170587
====================
Statistics can say whatever you want.
Jack must be charging overtime to get this nonsense published.
EDIT: loamfeet, I defer to your superior typing skills 😉
The 8 point charter is a bit of a wow moment.
By shouting out loud about a possible sale and lease back, it takes it off the table in the short term by implicitly threatening anyone proposing it with the kind of treatment that is usually reserved for journalists who tell the truth.
The path I think Sevco will try to follow will be to go back to the market and get further investment. Probably in April, which ties in with BS’s comments about the cash reaching a low point of around £1m in April and is also consistent with Malcolm Murray’s e-mails about why he wanted to retain Cenkos as NOMAD.
Of course having p1ssed away the best part of the original £22 million already, it’ll be tricky to convince anyone with more than 2 brain cells to part with their hard-earned and expect any kind of return from Sevco. Their ideal business model is just about break even and assumes CL football almost every year. Pie in the sky would be a generous assessment. The current board have shown NO financial acumen that would inspire confidence in them and then there is the spectre of CW and his law suit, which while being downplayed by any one with an interest in downplaying it, has not gone away to the point where anyone would want to risk lots of money on it.
We don’t know what kind of sweetheart deals the initial investors were offered, but it remains possible that there are various securities held over the property already. Realistically it’s the only reason ANY financially responsible company could have put money into Sevco in the first place. Now the requisitioners are making such an action very difficult in any second flotation – and its possible (but admittedly very tricky to execute) that such securities as already exist might be exempt from any dilution of ownership that would be a consequence of another flotation.
So that leaves either a sugar daddy (well it is almost Christmas, so lets pretend its something more than impossible until the January hangover sets in) or another admin.
If I were Ian Black, I’d be betting on the latter.
Now I am perhaps doing them a disservice, because the only place I can find the itemised “Charter” put forward by the so-called “Gang of Four” is in today’s Scotsman. If it is the Scotsman’s mistake, there is no fault attached to anyone (bar the proof-reader).
If however the Scotsman’s article is simply a cut-and-paste job from an official press release, how can a qualified chartered accountant put his name to such a glaring error as the bullet-point listed below.
• We will undertake to ensure that all executive directors’ salaries and bonuses are approved by the renumeration committee and subject to market benchmarking
Unless of course rather than monies paid out for executives’ rewards, it refers to a special committee set up to try to keep tabs on how many administrations have occurred to date.
Smugas says: (606)
December 4, 2013 at 12:50 pm
4 6 Rate This
andypandimonium says: (12)
December 4, 2013 at 10:10 am
blu says: (471)
December 4, 2013 at 10:51 am
====================================================================
Take these points on board guys, and I don’t believe that most United fans think Ciftci was completely innocent on the night in question. That being said others on both sides were equally culpable. What interests/disturbs me is that officials chose to punish Ciftci and DUFC on the night and then again after the event. Their allegations have all been found to be without merit but a lesser charge found to justify the original sending off.
I would ask all Celtic fans who read this to answer this question regarding Tannadicegate from a few seasons past:
What caused you the greatest concern……..the fact that a penalty was awarded by the referee before he changed his decision; or the officials obfuscating the issue by making up a version of “the truth” to suit the circumstances? If the latter, then we are on the same page.
BartinMain says: (103)
December 4, 2013 at 12:49 pm
‘….Whatever happens, though, I just hope we get the chance to play them soon. ..’
———-
I have made my view known already: any satisfaction to be derived from beating a much weaker and illicit new club would be undermined by the fact that that club would draw some comfort from being deemed to be legitimate.
The propaganda machine is working overtime in a desperate attempt to erase the stain of bastardisation- recently calling in Miller and Commons and sundry other players to utter fatuous statements about how much they wish to see ‘old firm’ games restored, and newspapers running phoney ‘polls’ to try to legitimise what cannot be legitimated.
RIFC plc is founded on a lie and as devilish a work of chicanery and lying as any group of men in office have ever perpetrated and propagated.
For the Celtic support to aspire to buy into that lie and willingly attempt to give aid and comfort to the liars would suggest that the propaganda is being swallowed.
RIFC plc should be kicked out of Scottish football with as much disdain and as little concern as a soiled jockstrap is kicked into the dirty laundry basket, and with as much care not to get dirt on one’s foot.
Tif Finn says: (947)
December 4, 2013 at 1:59 pm
This has got to be a joke
• We will never sell the stadium. We will ring-fence the assets to ensure this can never happen again. This is our home and will always remain our home.
………………………………………
It suggests it has already happened under previous owners…..never sell the stadium…they need to buy it back first!
It has been mentioned previously of how fans think about sevco fans. Some feel sorry as they may have been duped, some not so sympathetic.
At the meeting with PM, M.M, G Smith J McColl and 500 fans, one fan asked the question to all of the above ” what do you want the masses to do, just say and we to a man will do it”
Right there is the problem, they need to he told what to do. They will be led into the next share issue like succulent lambs. Easy money for next spivs. I have no sympathy as they have been warned yet again.
Aye (here is my) readies.
but when rangers were in the spl the 31% would have had an opinion.
so that’s another massive loss to Scottish football.
it really is all about opinions after all.
I lasted about 90 seconds of Sportsound tonight until I heard Stuart Dougal was going to be commenting on the case of the Dundee Utd player and the Referee incident. Dougal was silent as Bougherra walked laughing from Hampden in 2011 with no punishment for manhandling a Referee. In the same season Dougal defended a Referee who lied about a decision in a game, and he also defended the Referee’s Supervisor who publicly backed the lie. What on earth can he say that has even a semblance of credibility.
I find it quite funny people referring to “the old firm”, particularly when they do it more than seems even remotely necessary.
Almost as if they see it as “The old firm still exists, therefore it must be the same Rangers QED”.
It’s really quite a pathetic way of trying to get people to accept the myth they are perpetuating.
Good old Evening Times.
GeronimosCadillac says: (110)
December 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm
Madbhoy24941 says: (331)
December 4, 2013 at 1:56 pm
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Violently disagree with your comments about fan representation.
————————
Well I am a non-violent person so I will just agree to disagree with you 🙂
I never claimed the fans were stupid, I actually stated the opposite, that they were intelligent enough. The problem for me is that they are too close to the action, too passionate about the club to objectively look at the business side.
I will accept that in principal fans being part of the decision making process is a good idea but even though I am capable and knowledgable enough to run a business, I know I personally could not run a football club to fans expectations (including my own). So maybe that is what clouds my judgement, that said, I stick by that judgement.
john clarke says: (1411)
December 4, 2013 at 5:25 pm
——————————————
John
My post largely touched on what the authorities might do in the event of an insolvency event with respect of a points deduction, and I also touched on Laxey Partner’s motives.
Regarding the last couple of paragraphs, from which you have quoted me, I personally would love nothing better than to have the chance to play them, just once, and to annihilate them on the park.
It’s not a case of legitimising them- it is however the case that Rangers International have the same fans as the club that went before them.
I read James Forrest’s blog the other day and agreed with most of it. Fatigue has set in, and we are now just weary of them. I know I am, and the troll that has been hogging this site the past few days, Bryce, and his ever increasing and convoluted arguments, is a good example of how wearisome they have become.
What better way could there be to provide the icing on the ice cream and jelly, then, than to destroy the team that plays in Rangers colours- just once- in the Scottish Cup, and to also destroy any ounce of morale their fans have managed to muster about their new club?
As far as I am concerned there will always be ‘a’ Rangers. It might not be even the current form, but their fans will continue to have a club to support. Celtic & ‘Rangers’ will meet again one day.
My reasoning is that now ‘Rangers’ are impoverished and in the position that they are, it would be an excellent time to dish out some footballing revenge upon their supporters.
If we do meet, I will lap up every minute of pain we provide Rangers International with on the park.
Every last second.
Something’s going on…
====================
Latest ‘pro-Old Firm’ witterings, from Graham Spiers now;
“…I [Spiers] believe I’m in a majority here when I say, I miss it. Haste ye back, Rangers. We need the Glasgow derby in Scotland. As bad as it is, it is very good.”
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/spiers-on-sport-is-the-premiership-better-without-the-old-firm.1386173451
==================
Overall, a rather flimsy, off the cuff article from Spiers.
Seems like we are in the midst of a co-ordinated PR managed plan: anyone would think that the next suggestion to appear in the MSM will be that TRFC should be dropped into the top league…’for the good of Scottish football’.
…well you just can’t trust McCoist to get TRFC into the top league on merit.
Something very smelly is brewing at Ibrox / Hampden.
andypandimonium
December 4, 2013 at 5:05 pm
It was definitely the latter. All supporters experience bad decisions and however infuriating at the time we move on. “Dougie Dougie” was to the best of my knowledge unique and created long term anger at the officials and the system which seemed to want to punish the only guy with a conscience.
Maybe the SFA should have done something a few years ago when Madjid Bougherra manhandled the ref (more than once) in the clear view of the supporters and the fans watching on TV.
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/match-centre/article710142.ece/ALTERNATES/gallery-large/Rangers-Madjid-Bougherra+cropped
upthehoops says: (698)
December 4, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Yes your point is well made.
Here we have a referee’s association who will support liars to the hilt, in fact so much so that they will go on strike to demand better protection.
One of their members is man handled by the same player not once but twice and we can all hear the tumbleweed blowing through Glasgow. There was no comment from them when the culprit walked away with a fine. So most right minded people would think that this was the precedent set since they could muster no moral fortitude to speak out.
Now another player touches a referee and is given a two match ban with one suspended and suddenly they have found their vocal cords again.
It is no wonder that fans distrust the man in the middle as much as they do. For one club they have absolutely no spine and yet for everyone else they demand the harshest of sentences. They are morally bankrupt but then again they are employed by an association which is exactly the same.
Their duplicity is there for all to see.
campsiejoe says: (607)
December 4, 2013 at 11:35 am
As a qualified CA, you would also expect Mr Murray to be fully conversant with Insolvency Law
This appears not to be the case, as borne out by his comments last week, regarding Club & Company
I wonder what his Professional body would make of this
==============================================================================
Campsie Joe…I can assure you in the most unequivocal of terms that ICAS does not give the proverbial stuff about this sort of public (mis)demeanour.
But God help you if you are late in submitting a form or return, do believe me!
Reg post by Auldheid at December 4, 2013 at 1:55 pm
Many thanks for the reply to my PM and for the lengthy documents – have read over them but will be rereading and rechecking again since there is a lot of information there.
One thing is clear – IMO, CO did not find himself conflicted in SFA by any accident and his continuing presence there is probably due to waiting on the UTT verdict to ensure there are no subsequent implications on the LNS “verdict” handed out. In other words keep the bodies buried.
I would urge anyone who has not already done so to contact Auldheid via PM and educate yourself.
Since its a Scottish Football Monitor blog, I would especially ask anyone who has an interest in Scottish football to get involved as this is nothing to do with title stripping – it is how our sport has failed the customers (us the fans) by allowing certain individuals the freedom to not only bend the rules and ruin our sport, but then cover up for them in order to cover up their own incompetencies. We all write that we want CO and his cronies gone – let’s see what we can do to make it happen!
Since this blog often gets tarred with a pro-Celtic stance, we need to have a groundswell from all other clubs on this so it would be great to see others who have not done so yet (Arbroath, Hamilton, Motherwell, Clyde, ICT, Hibs, Hearts, DUFC and Aberdeen to name but a few who are on here) to start helping on a spring clean of the SFA – especially supporters of clubs who have supporters representatives in the club who can converse closely with their clubs on this.
For others like Bryce09, it would also be telling to note that instead of being the Pro-Lawwell association Jack and his crew have led TRFC fans to believe, he has quite cleverly deflected any TRFC fans from seeking the truth on what the SFA did to allow SDM to start on his path to destruction by allowing the rule bending to go on during the Murray years, they made the situation worse. SDM was like a child given the keys to a car – the SFA were supposed to stop it – but the car crash happened anyway. Now the blame is being put onto us the witnesses.
We need to stop this – Scottish Football needs an enema!
@Bill & @NTHM
The caller introduced himself as a co-founder called Sandy (the caller seemed to indicate a Craig Houston was the the founder, btw). I wasn’t endorsing them and I have no idea who they are or what they otherwise stand for. All I know is that it is a fan group trying to do something about the current board instead of blaming the rest of Scotland. Anyway, what was said last night sounded positive.
Their focus is upon those who had spent £50m plus in the past 16 months. He also said that if nothing happens at the AGM, by the way of change, then they would agitate for a boycott of STs and merchandise. To be honest, it’s the first group I’ve heard about who are doing something off their own initiative. Such a boycott could be significant in the long run. It could also split a divided fan group yet further.
justshatered says: (265)
December 4, 2013 at 7:48 pm
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upthehoops says: (698)
December 4, 2013 at 6:24 pm
Yes your point is well made.
Here we have a referee’s association who will support liars to the hilt, in fact so much so that they will go on strike to demand better protection.
One of their members is man handled by the same player not once but twice and we can all hear the tumbleweed blowing through Glasgow. There was no comment from them when the culprit walked away with a fine. So most right minded people would think that this was the precedent set since they could muster no moral fortitude to speak out.
Now another player touches a referee and is given a two match ban with one suspended and suddenly they have found their vocal cords again.
It is no wonder that fans distrust the man in the middle as much as they do. For one club they have absolutely no spine and yet for everyone else they demand the harshest of sentences. They are morally bankrupt but then again they are employed by an association which is exactly the same.
Their duplicity is there for all to see.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many years ago I served on the Disciplinary Committee of an amateur league.
If a player as much as raised a pinkie towards a referee he copped it, for we depended on the goodwill of referees (some who refereed at more senior levels) and did all we could to protect them.
When Calum Murray offered his defence of Bougherra I could only imagine at the chagrin this would have caused amongst his fellow referees.
Well that is imagination for you. Not a peep (in public anyway).
But now that the corrupting force that was Rangers has been parked, if not removed, the same guys find their voice?
Changing the ways that referees are appointed and monitored should be a priority after removal of those who began, aided and abetted in the corruption of our game.
essexbeancounter says: (328)
December 4, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Believe me, it was very much tongue in cheek
I had my first chat with a fan of sevco recently. I never met the person before as it was a night organised by a charity event and we just got speaking.. We got talking about football and the Scotland national team in times gone by, things like all top English teams having great Scottish players in their teams and in many cases captains (Alan Hansen, Billy Bremner) as examples. We shared great memories and virtually agreed on most points. When he found out what club I followed the conversation turned to Rangers. He maintained theory that they were relegated, I asked about conditional licence, he would not listen. All clubs having a kick at them was his next defense, I asked how? No answer. He then mentioned NL and that he brought all threats on himself. I tried to explain the actual events in this case, he would not listen. I explained that I do not miss his team and do not want to see them ever again on my ground (this did not go down that well). He would not accept this and this was my opinion only, I tried to tell him that this opinion was held by a lot of fans I knew, he would not listen. Same team in his eyes (I made no reply as I sensed he may not listen). I mentioned that I would not step inside Hampden due to SFA handling of his team. He then spoke, Lawell runs SFA was his claim. I asked how long Lawell had been in the SFA as a comparison to CO. He stated did now want to talk about the subject any longer as we were all the same. End of conversation and really end of me ever trying to explain any view on them to any of their fans.
So I repeat I never want to play them again ever.
There are stormy times ahead for they cannot change and really do not want to change and we have the SFA to really thank for this.
As ‘The Rangers’ share price heads south the Celtic share price has jumped 5p in two days.
Is something in the air?
Wonder what it could be after all there is no money to be made in a football club and particularly a Scottish club.
campsiejoe says: (608)
December 4, 2013 at 8:02 pm
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essexbeancounter says: (328)
December 4, 2013 at 7:52 pm
Believe me, it was very much tongue in cheek
========================================================================
CJ…you have mail…aka PM!
I see the BBC and David Currie on tonight’s reporting Scotland are happy to report that Rangers are breaking records, definitely OIdco as far as they are concerned then.
BartinMain says: (104)
December 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm
6 1 Rate This
———-
I can see your point, since you are a Celtic fan.
For me ‘Rangers’ don’t exist. What was, is in the process of being legally dismantled.
The current club, as far as I can see, is entirely illegitimate. It’s come into being via a highly unusual set of events that look to be at odds with company law, sporting procedure and common sense. It is a strange creature that may yet be the subject of legal issues.
If the alias of Sevco survives, and the fans of the previous club attach themselves to it in perpetuity, so be it — but what a history. It would have been better to have been shut down completely, as it should have been. Something else would have replaced it, and I feel sure it would have been better than what we see now.
You read that Rangers have donated 2000 tickets to local schools and other groups and you think good initiative, only….
…. along comes Corsica Charity tweeting that the “donated” tickets have in fact been charged to the Rangers charity. I suppose its one way of getting paying customers into the ground. 👿
Sandy (Co-founder of the Sons of Struth) Chugg
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandy-Chugg/e/B008FPRVNG
BartinMain says: (104)
December 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm
I understand the sentiment behind your post BM, but as a Celtic fan I have absolutely no desire for my club to be pitted against Sevco this season.
I can’t for the life of me see any possible benefit for Celtic in meeting this club in the near future. There would be hype way beyond anything we have witnessed in the past and an integral part of media frenzy would be to highlight how much this “fixture has been missed”. I can however see a whole host of other more damaging downsides.
Also with the Honest Mistake brigade still there, I would be less confident than your good self of the result favouring the best team.
Tif Finn says: (950)
December 4, 2013 at 8:39 pm
1 0 Rate This
———–
Dearie me, seems to have represented everything that was wrong with the former club.
Guess it won’t be his crowd who start an alternative club then, it would more of the same!
bryce9a says: (90)
December 4, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Seem to recall that the media were united about Motherwell Born Billionaires with wealth off the radar not so very long ago.They were also united about about the end of the history, also, not so very long ago.
If you’re pinning your hopes on the constancy of the media, God help you…
I find it absolutely extraordinary that anyone is even remotely interested in the lies and propaganda that the Scottish main stream media feel it is their job to try to have us believe.
If the last few years have taught us anything it is that our media cannot be trusted, too often their output is little more than press releases. Which is presumably a large part of why they are dying out.
And the reason given for the non-punishment of Bougherra was that they had spoken to the referee who swore that at no stage had he felt threatened. So the new yardstick for judging the offence became whether the official felt threatened.
Tif Finn says: (951)
December 4, 2013 at 9:27 pm
I find it absolutely extraordinary that anyone is even remotely interested in the lies and propaganda that the Scottish main stream media feel it is their job to try to have us believe…
==============================
But unfortunately, it’s probably reasonable to assume that the majority still believe what they read / hear in the SMSM wrt TRFC etc.
The Internet Bampots know the score, but again, I suspect we are still in the minority ?
Tif Finn says: (951)
December 4, 2013 at 8:39 pm
9 1 Rate This
Sandy (Co-founder of the Sons of Struth) Chugg
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandy-Chugg/e/B008FPRVNG
————————
Exactly why this group shouldn’t be taken seriously
bryce9a says: (90)
December 4, 2013 at 9:06 pm
“If yes, what ideas are there to bring about such a change?”
———————————-
It does matter that the wider media have taken a different path. It has shown us the machinations of the media machine whereas we, in our underground bunker, are dancing to a different agenda. It must annoy the hell out of the PR firms that there is a network of individuals who would seek to undermine their work. Whether the ship can be turned? This is an Odyssey and we will not know our final destination until we get there.
Bill1903 says: (31)
December 4, 2013 at 9:55 pm
Tif Finn says: (951)
December 4, 2013 at 8:39 pm
9 1 Rate This
Sandy (Co-founder of the Sons of Struth) Chugg
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandy-Chugg/e/B008FPRVNG
————————
Exactly why this group shouldn’t be taken seriously
***********
……….unless you are Brian Stockbridge. With Sandy Chugg as co-founder of SoS – who famously went to England games for the crack (of heads) rather than support Scotland, it begs the question what on earth the Murrays are doing with these nutters running their support mechanism. And also explains the No Surrender comment from Malcolm……….
The Murrays are clearly willing to play to the lowest common denominator if that is what they need to do, and it is.
You only have to look at their performance at the “fans forum” to see that.
For shame.
BartinMain says: (104)
December 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm
‘.. and to annihilate them on the park…
It’s not a case of legitimising them- it is however the case that Rangers International have the same fans as the club that went before them….’
———-
Of course I understand the desire , indeed the thirst, to strike a ( these days, metaphorically only) blow at those whose entire football culture seemed to be less related to football as sport than to its misuse as a platform for the assertion of ‘religious’ /racist- based supremacy and inviolability.
And I have said that although the ideal would be for Celtic to refuse to play against them if they were required to face such a distasteful task, the danger would be that Celtic would incur severe penalty.
If a ‘closed-doors’ match were not insisted upon by the Police/ City Council, then in my opinion the next best thing would be for Celtic fans to show their contempt by boycotting the match.
The urge to annihilate the opposition ( remember David Coleman’s amusement at the expression “we annihilated them wan nuthin” :smile:? ), does have the unfortunate effect of recognising them as opponents.
They are not entitled to such recognition.That is the bedrock of my belief.
I hope the potential problem does not materialise.
It won’t, if in due course Dunfermline Athletic remove the illicit club from the competition, thereby doing themselves and Scottish Football a great favour..
Any poll is at the mercy of the question. Would you say the SPL is better or worse off without regular Old Firm matches between Celtic and Rangers?”
What about: ‘do you believe that a company should be able to forget debts of £46M+ and start again as if nothing has happened; threaten journalists with court and/or violence for reporting incontestable facts; threaten board members of other clubs with ‘consequences’ because they voted with their conscience rather than wallet; broke the spirit of a registration ban in the most cynical way possible.
or ‘do you believe that Scottish football is better off without the sectarian bilefest that was ‘the old firm’ fixture?’
Or
‘Do you think Scottish football has benefited enormously from the lack of Armageddon?’
The notable aspect of the poll is that such a significant chunk of opinion thinks SF is better off without OF games. This, despite efforts from all angles to persuade otherwise.
Poll: ‘Would you say sex is better or worse with the occasional inexplicable rash and embarrassing visit to your GP?’
Another notable aspect of the poll is that it is taking place at all. Together with the numerous placed pieces by Spiers and others it woudl lead you to believe we are being softened up for something.
justpedylan says: (35)
December 4, 2013 at 11:12 pm
&&&&&&
Jack, having successfully purged RM of opposition (no questions asked about the rons or green’s baleful spectre hanging over the agm, and absolutely no mention of Craig ‘you are sevco’ Whyte!), is pump priming his pet journalists with succulent pork rind. Spiers et all are too afraid to say no to ‘the gravedigger’.
Any word on Ally’s pay cut?
Kenny miller, really?
Campbell ‘night out’ Ogilvie commenting on a non complaint.
Jack’s fingerprints are all over the herald/evening times.
tilhotdogsbark says: (20)
December 4, 2013 at 8:59 pm
41 0 Rate This
BartinMain says: (104)
December 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm
I understand the sentiment behind your post BM, but as a Celtic fan I have absolutely no desire for my club to be pitted against Sevco this season.
I can’t for the life of me see any possible benefit for Celtic in meeting this club in the near future. There would be hype way beyond anything we have witnessed in the past and an integral part of media frenzy would be to highlight how much this “fixture has been missed”. I can however see a whole host of other more damaging downsides.
Also with the Honest Mistake brigade still there, I would be less confident than your good self of the result favouring the best team.
————————————————-
I’m with you on this one, The Honest mistake brigade will be well briefed by their paymasters. If you think the cheating ended with the events of Summer 2012 and the formation of the SPFL you must be buttoned up the back. One just needs to look back at the last ever Glasgow Derby at Ibrox refereed by Calum Murray of how a match can be influenced. No chance on earth Celtic were going to win that day, a couple of sendings off before you can get into your stride. Job done Calum.
Sorry for stepping over to no-go territory TSFM regarding the refs, but feel it is relevant to some of the posts tonight.
IMO of course.
justpedylan says: (35)
December 4, 2013 at 11:12 pm
Another notable aspect of the poll is that it is taking place at all. Together with the numerous placed pieces by Spiers and others it woudl lead you to believe we are being softened up for something.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Has anyone asked who commissioned and paid for the poll yet?
For Sevco fans who know little about the stock market
In the past
An investment in RFC = warchest to buy players
in other words money knowingly thrown down the drain
……………………….
Now that RIFC is controlled by Spivs
Any investment in RIFC = a gilt edged chance to withdraw more than is put in
meaning
There is no chance that Spivs would fund a warchest The numbers just dont add up
When they talk about investment they mean selling shares to each other with nothing going into a warchest
GoosyGoosy says: (481)
December 5, 2013 at 1:02 am
There is no chance that Spivs would fund a warchest The numbers just dont add up
When they talk about investment they mean selling shares to each other with nothing going into a warchest
==========================================================
The Scottish media must be such a God send for so many people involved in this Ibrox farce. Whyte came in with wealth of the radar and promised Ally at least £10M for players, but up to £25M up front if needed. Then in came Green with his promises of Rangers being richer than Celtic within a year and up to £30M for Ally to spend on players. Now we have the Murray’s claiming £1.5M retail income can rapidly be turned into £30M. Then we have King – enough said! The Scottish media have failed to properly expose any of this nonsense.
Instead the Scottish media collapse on their knees at the feet of these people and offer themselves up as a sacrifice for the cause. They even still find time for hushed worship of the deposed King David, with some hoping for a triumphant ride back into town on his chariot to repel the invading bampot army.
scapaflow says: (1245)
December 4, 2013 at 8:37 pm
62 0 Rate This
You read that Rangers have donated 2000 tickets to local schools and other groups and you think good initiative, only….
…. along comes Corsica Charity tweeting that the “donated” tickets have in fact been charged to the Rangers charity. I suppose its one way of getting paying customers into the ground.
=============================================================
Another abuse of the ”charity ‘arm” of Sevco.
Shocking indeed.
Will OSCR investigate?
And who was the recipient of the payment for the tickets
While I still think the ringfence Ibrox thing is nonsense, having slept on it I believe the requisitioners may be using the hallowed ground to try and flush out the boards position. We have seen the board respond pretty quickly when the requisitioners have gone public. Therefore does the board say ringfening is nonsense thus implying sale and leaseback is always a possibility or do they keep shtum thus making the fans uneasy. Will be interesting to see what the board and Jack come up with.
FIFA says: (440)
December 5, 2013 at 7:25 am
0 0 Rate This
And who was the recipient of the payment for the tickets
__________________
What I understand is being alleged is that the Rangers Charity bought the tickets from TRFC, and then gave them away to various groups.
Just a grubby method of getting money out of the Charity and into the by now almost empty TRFC bank account- in my very cynical view. Others will no doubt view it differently. The whole ploy has the air of utter desperation for cash.
Whether giving away tickets for games at Ibrox fits in with the aims of that particular charity is a question I can’t answer. I wonder if they will be buying any tickets from Partick Thistle or St Mirren? Now that would be a real treat for the kiddies- top level football!
Good Morning
As I posted last week the deabte on oc/nc is boring.
Those who know, know, those who don’t want to know, won’t.
I think we should concentrate our efforts in getting rid of an SFA which is not fit for purpose.
How shameful that CO remains in post and crawls out from under his stone to issue proclamations about Mr. Lunny’s time being wasted.
Perhaps a good use of Mr. Lunny’s time would be to carry out a detailed and thorough investigation into the sectarian singing which could be heard last week and indeed has been heard on every televised game involving the sevconians this year.
They are not an old club but continue to attract the same old fans.
Happy to proclaim world records when they beat teams like Forfar but not to pay debts.
A measure of how low the people in charge of Smellybrox is the alleged charging of “free” tickets to the Rangers Charity. If this is true it is the most disgusting event in the long or short history of “The Rangers”.
They do say Charity begins at home but that is taking the pash.
OSCR MUST INVESTIGATE. If it is untrue I will be the first to apologise. If however this is true and that charitable funds have been diverted to prop up a failing company then OSCR must take steps to stop this “Charity” trading to ensure that the aims of the Charity are implemented.
To steal from fellow spivs may be ok, to steal from fans is disgraceful, (although the fans were warned), but to steal from a Charity puts them right at sewer level.(With apologies to any rats who dwell there).
Enough is enough.
Cringeworthy PR from both sides of the Ibrox board battle today. The requisitioners constitution is effectively a list of things Malcolm and Paul Murray ignored and took no action on when they were previously on the board.
The planted story about the Easdales knocking back £80 million for McGills has a Michelle Mone level of delusion about it.
Preston Bus was recently sold by Stagecoach . Their turnover was £10 million and profits £550 k. The price sold for was £3.2 million. McGills has turnover of £27 million and profits of £650 k .
I suppose a reasonable question would be…how much did the charity pay for the tickets?
CO will be in post for the next two years.
This is a cast iron guarantee for Sevco for that period.
In that time, they can do anything they want
and it will get SFA backing.
My guess is what Sevco wants
is to win the Scottish Cup
and then weasel their way into Europe next year.
This should not be too difficult
with the Referees and the SFA
able to offer them unlimited assistance.
Alternatively, the game could go straight.
Take your pick.
Barcabhoy says: (311)
December 5, 2013 at 7:58 am
……………………………….
2.41% profit from 27 million?
Depending on the debts…will determine what is paid..
That 3.2 million paid will have a standard business payout out and claw back over say 12 months based on unknown factors…such as unexpected cancelled contracts or unknown debts etc…generally it is not all paid upfront…at least not from any sensible business…
It appears to be either poorly managed or a very aggressive market they operate in?
Exiled Celt says: (834)
December 5, 2013 at 7:54 am
Amusing to see Stockbridge flanked by his two hired hands in the directors box!
Barcabhoy says: (311)
December 5, 2013 at 7:58 am
&&&&&&
Jack’s planted tales of vast sums offered for a business purchased for ‘an undisclosed sum’, a yougov poll which, whilst illustrating the apathy amongst ordinary people about an obsession peculiar to smsm hacks, showed +33% don’t care; 47% don’t mind and 14% ‘care’.
As per the slimy one’s instructions, this has been reported as Armageddon 2.
The rons have been trying to get out of buses for some time, no reasonable offer refused. The idea that someone would pitch £80m is bizarre.
Could Ron find himself a bit short of readies when it comes to paying chuckles for his pre-sold shares?
Danish Pastry says: (1761)
December 4, 2013 at 7:59 pm
@Bill & @NTHM
The caller introduced himself as a co-founder called Sandy (the caller seemed to indicate a Craig Houston was the the founder, btw). I wasn’t endorsing them and I have no idea who they are or what they otherwise stand for. All I know is that it is a fan group trying to do something about the current board instead of blaming the rest of Scotland. Anyway, what was said last night sounded positive.
Their focus is upon those who had spent £50m plus in the past 16 months. He also said that if nothing happens at the AGM, by the way of change, then they would agitate for a boycott of STs and merchandise. To be honest, it’s the first group I’ve heard about who are doing something off their own initiative. Such a boycott could be significant in the long run. It could also split a divided fan group yet further.
—————————————————————————————————————————
First time I’ve posted on TSFM since RTC days.
Only doing so because I’ve got something to add.
Re, the above….
Craig Houston WAS the founding member of this group. I know him. In fact, I know the whole family.
Was actually speaking to his parents during the week and they were proudly telling me of Craigs visit to London the other week to meet with MM. Receives texts from him all the time apparently. He might even be offered a job at Ibrox when MM gets elected to the Board!
Now, why would MM hint at this?
Answers on a stamp….
As for the new club being fast tracked into a euro competition ,that would be the equivelant of the tow truck thats carrying the crashed car to the scrap yard crashing itself,stranger things have happened right enough.
Paulmac2 says:
December 4, 2013 at 5:29 pm
• We will never sell the stadium. We will ring-fence the assets to ensure this can never happen again. This is our home and will always remain our home.
………………………………………
It suggests it has already happened under previous owners…..never sell the stadium…they need to buy it back first!
——
Indeed – “again”. Never sell the stadium again. To which previous sale does this refer, I wonder. And which other “assets” are to be “ring-fenced”? The history? The five stars? Ally himself?
You have to wonder whether these bullet-points were cleverly worded, or whether whoever wrote them was actually a bit thick and didn’t pay any attention to detail whatsoever. Things like that “again”, and “in Europe” would never get past the most junior proof-reader if there was a clearer way of expressing the real meaning.
It was with disbelieve and more than some amusement that I read this just posted on Twitter;
http://www.petitionbuzz.com/petitions/glasgowrangersfans
As someone quite eloquently said the other day “Different turd but the same flies”
Davythelotion
Seems to me the most accurate and representative poll is the one that supporters participate in every week when they pass through the turnstiles. The numbers appear to be up for most clubs, and therefore it is reasonable to infer that on the whole, Scottish football fans are pretty happy with the way things have panned out.
For those who are interested in such matters, the RIFC share price has dipped to 39.99p
When the Titanic was hit by an iceberg it was assumed to be unsinkable. The worrying signs were the inrushing water and the flooding.
The Rangers are like the Titanic . They are sinking. The rats are leaving the ship taking whatever loot they can find. Better to sell a share for 39p than see it plummet to zero when it sinks like the old version. The AGM is just a rearrangement of the deckchairs. The water is still flooding in at 38,000 gallons a day (38,000 pounds) The AGM is just about who are the officers on the bridge when it founders. The end is nigh. I can hear the band playing “Nearer my God to thee”. May God have mercy on their souls.
bawsbustedanathat says: (119)
December 5, 2013 at 8:26 am
First time I’ve posted on TSFM since RTC days.
—————————–
TSFM was not around in the RTC days and is not a continuation of RTC, they are 2 different forums with clearly different identities…. maybe this Rangers thing is affecting you that much that you now see 2 different entities as the same thing 😀
Oh, after writing that I had a thought, maybe they were both running alongside each other right at the start but hey, why waste a good joke….
Not sure how trustworthy these polls are.
My own expectations are that it would be utterly baffling if any supporters of non-Old Firm clubs would want Rangers back in the top tier, as our absence has allowed them to compete for the second place spot that previously – generally speaking – was out of reach. Of course there is the “blue pound” aspect but I think fans of rival clubs have made it quite clear they’d rather their clubs took a slight drop in revenue than have Rangers darken their doors, so that really is an irrelevance.
As for guessing the minds of Celtic fans, there seems to be a split – though I wouldn’t know the proportions either way – between one side delighted at having a one-horse race to romp every season, and the other side wanting some degree of competition to return to the title race or, more simply, the joy of beating Rangers which would usually form the icing on the cake of any previous league triumph. Some fans get wound up by the implications there’s no real competition to Celtic at the moment, others don’t give a damn. I suspect those fault lines would also run through the question of whether Rangers’ presence back in the top league would be a good thing or not.
Fisiani
The Titanic was not hit by an iceberg ,it hit the poor iceberg ,this is exactly what the Sevconians are trying to get everyone to believe also that the RFC where not to blame for their disaster,no ,it was the people at the helm that steered the ship to its fate,not experienced in the waters they where attempting to navigate with the size of ship.
As for the Easdales ,dont follow the Muray Formula in trying to sell off your business,its has flaws in it,just read back in the press ,oh ,on second thoughts ,take the pound now.
bryce9a says: (93)
December 5, 2013 at 9:56 am
As for guessing the minds of Celtic fans, there seems to be a split – though I wouldn’t know the proportions either way – between one side delighted at having a one-horse race to romp every season, and the other side wanting some degree of competition to return to the title race or, more simply, the joy of beating Rangers which would usually form the icing on the cake of any previous league triumph.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is of course a third group, who are simply delighted that their team is playing in a fair league, no longer poisoned by a team that outspent all others by avoiding or evading taxes, and which apparently could ignore the rules on player registration with absolute impunity. I wish the league was more competitive, but I would like the strong competition to come from Aberdeen, ICT, Dundee Utd, or any team that has competed honestly and fairly over the last 20 years. I will never see a team called Rangers playing again. It is my sincere hope that nobody else ever has to watch them again either. Unfortunately I fear that yet again the “establishment” will burst a blood vessel to ensure the survival of a team at Ibrox, regardless of any concept of justice.
bryce9a says: (93)
December 5, 2013 at 9:56 am
3 0 Rate This
Not sure how trustworthy these polls are.
My own expectations are that it would be utterly baffling if any supporters of non-Old Firm clubs would want Rangers back in the top tier, as our absence has allowed them to compete for the second place spot that previously – generally speaking – was out of reach. Of course there is the “blue pound” aspect but I think fans of rival clubs have made it quite clear they’d rather their clubs took a slight drop in revenue than have Rangers darken their doors, so that really is an irrelevance.
As for guessing the minds of Celtic fans, there seems to be a split – though I wouldn’t know the proportions either way – between one side delighted at having a one-horse race to romp every season, and the other side wanting some degree of competition to return to the title race or, more simply, the joy of beating Rangers which would usually form the icing on the cake of any previous league triumph. Some fans get wound up by the implications there’s no real competition to Celtic at the moment, others don’t give a damn. I suspect those fault lines would also run through the question of whether Rangers’ presence back in the top league would be a good thing or not.
============================
”Rangers’ presence back in the top league” – Cannot ever happen, as Rangers are being Liquidated
(went bust and out of business owing lots and lots of pennies and not to the tooth fairies)
The Rangers (or Sevco, as that is what is on their birth certificate) have never been in the top league to be able to get back to.
I certainly do not miss Rangers (iL) and i never want to see Sevco, thank you.