Past the Event Horizon

On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.

The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.

I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.

There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.

That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.

That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.

Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.

The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.

The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.

If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.

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John Cole

About Big Pink

Big Pink is John Cole; a former schoolteacher based in the West of Scotland, He is also a print and broadcast journalist who is engaged in the running of SFM . Former gigs include Newstalk 106, the Celtic View, and Channel67. A Celtic fan, he is also the voice of our podcast initiative.

3,926 thoughts on “Past the Event Horizon


  1. CELTIC fans brought shame on the club last night after ripping up seats a rivals’ ground then daubing them with offensive IRA slogans.
    Yobs rampaged through the South Stand at Motherwell’s Fir Park ground.

    During the match dozens of seats were ripped up, metal frames bent out of shape, 18 smoke bombs, three fireworks and a flare were let off and IRA slogans left on chairs which were covered with stickers from the controversial Green Brigade.

    F*** you Lawwell — a reference to Celtic’s Chief Executive Peter Lawwell — was scrawled on another chair.

    Scottish Professional Football League and Celtic security delegates were inspecting the damage.

    Celtic — who won the league match 5-0 — are subject of a UEFA hearing after the Green Brigade unfurled banners depicting William Wallace and Irish hunger striker Bobby Sands before November’s Champions League tie with AC Milan.

    A police spokesman said: “Inquiries are on going.”

    —————————————————————————————————————————-

    What are the options for Scottish Football to deal with consistently shameful behaviour of a section of the Celtic support who tarnish our top flight game and their own club?

    Why are there only public order issues when Celtic play on a Friday night?


  2. RIFC can’t really have another IPO as that is an initial public offering. They can however sell further shares, which would of course dilute current holdings. So if they sold a further 35,000,000 shares people’s current holding would become roughly 2/3 of what it is (as a proportion of the company rather than the number of shares).

    There would be no reason why a private limited company couldn’t sell shares in itself, just not in a public sale. In fact it would possibly be simpler for investors, and certainly less open to public scrutiny. Remember that’s how the original company started before floating on the stock market. People paid say £1m for 10% of the business. Those shares were then converted to shares in the PLC. If I remember correctly they got 1 shares in the PLC for every two they held.


  3. If TRFC fans’ groups are going to disengage I’m fairly sure that must be the biggest incentive ever to vote with the current board.

    Whilst I’m on the theme of fans’ disengaging, it is clearly time for Celtic to lance the growing boil that is the green brigade. They have helped create but are not solely responsible for the better atmosphere at CP but at what price?

    Their lack of respect for the club, the fines they have imposed upon it, the puerile use of smoke bombs (one level up from a trip to Tam Shepard’s to buy a whoopee cushion) and now trashing another club’s stadium.

    Time for section 111 to be closed. Celtic don’t need neds who can’t hold their Buckfast. They are intent on publicity for their (yawn) political views and to hell with anyone else. Deny them that and they’ll disappear sooner than the balance in Rangers bank account.

    A chance for the decent fans of both The Rangers and Celtic to reclaim the high ground.


  4. I notice posts appearing demanding action against Celtic because of the damage at Fir Park. As a Celtic fan my heart sank when I saw the smoke bombs and also the damage and there can be no excuse whatsover for that type of behaviour.

    What I do hope though is that Celtic no longer keep quiet about the damage caused at Celtic Park by travelling fans. I know for a fact significant damage was caused to the toilets recently by Aberdeen fans, and seats are regularly damaged. If there are to be demands for Celtic to be hammered, then these demands have to be across the board. These past few weeks a stranger would be forgiven for thinking Celtic had a massive hooligan element among their support. Who could possibly be driving this agenda among a media who are desperate to demonise the Celtic support at any turn? .


  5. Sugar Daddy says: (147)
    December 7, 2013 at 11:49 am
    ==============================
    Totally agree with you about the Green Brigade. I spoke recently with an ex-very senior Police Officer who said they always advised clubs never to give over areas in a stadium to particular groups, as these groups eventually believe they are more important than the club itself. Looks like he had a point, but dealing with disruptive elements at away games is not so easy.


  6. Steff G, UTH

    Irrespective of whataboutery on damage at CP, this Celtic fan is sick and tired of the antics of the gb. They were indulged, they took advantage, they are now running amok.

    Close 111, split up the season books across the stadium, life ban for any found to have damaged Fir Park or any other stadium & Celtic should refuse to meet gb any more.

    Celtic will still be Celtic without the green brigade. The green brigade will be nothing without Celtic.

    Once Celtic do that, they can look at all other clubs and rightly ask what they are doing to eradicate hooligans from their fan base.


  7. When the GB held their infamous corteo along the gallowgate and the resultant fallout from it, one or two commentators asked what was their intention? I remember reading that they were being “victimised” “wanted to improve the atmosphere at games”. Further reading found attachment to the alerta network of ultras (no real definition of what or who they were) -possible leftist leanings.

    Now the GB have made quite clear political statements and have shown to be well organised using celtic as there vehicle. Denying celtic to the GB may increase the GBs sense of martyrdom but will deny them a big voice. A right to protest is not being denied to the GB they can protest wherever they like its just when you come to my house I only let you smoke in garden!


  8. Without trying to distract the blog in any way, but isn’t the best way to deter any fans breaking seats is to have their names and adressess? With a bit tighter administration between the home and away clubs, every ticket sold will be accountable for so any damage to seats can be traced back to the purchaser. Charges, fines and bans could then be brought against any such fans.
    Not too difficult imo.
    No excuses for the loutish vandalism they should all be banned. I was surprised last night to see just how many of the group were bouncing around together behind the goal and how many smoke bombs were let off, did no one carry out any searches? I also believe Friday night games and indeed late night games during the holiday period will always pave the wave for these nutters to get drunk and cause damage. I bet nothing would have happened if this game was played on Wednesday night.


  9. Sugar Daddy says: (148)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:27 pm
    5 2 Rate This

    Irrespective of whataboutery on damage at CP, this Celtic fan is sick and tired of the antics of the gb. They were indulged, they took advantage, they are now running amok.
    =======================================
    For clarification I am as sick of their antics as you are. In terms of whataboutery my main point is simply failing to understand why some clubs appear to run to the media very quickly about this type of thing, while Celtic always stay silent.


  10. I noticed from an earlier post that a Norman Wrighton was appointed to the board of The Rangers Football Club Limited yesterday.

    Does anyone know this gentleman?


  11. No1 Bob says: (65)

    December 7, 2013 at 12:46 pm
    I noticed from an earlier post that a Norman Wrighton was appointed to the board of The Rangers Football Club Limited yesterday.

    Does anyone know this gentleman?
    ____________________________________________________________________

    A cursory Google search bears little. According to 192.com, there are only two in the UK. One in Dorset and one in Northants.


  12. No1 Bob says: (65)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:46 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    I noticed from an earlier post that a Norman Wrighton was appointed to the board of The Rangers Football Club Limited yesterday.

    Does anyone know this gentleman?

    Same guy as here..
    http://www.rangersinternationalfootballclub.com/board-management/board-of-directors

    Comparing the link reachable by john clarkes instructions yesterday and comparing to above link at RIFC, yes mr. david somers is chairman of RIFC but strictly nothing to do with TRFC.

    Buddy


  13. UTH

    We are in agreement. My use of whataboutery was not meant to denigrate your or Steff G posts. I want Celtic to take the lead on this, I think, a growing problem. What other clubs do is not my concern.

    Celtic have a problem with a minority of their support. Luckily, they are easily identifiable within 111 and by closing it, in addition to denying them access to away tickets, Celtic will remove the vast majority of them. Palacio67 makes a good point although I am surprised this does not happen already.


  14. TSFM says: (571)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:58 pm
    0 0 Rate This

    No1 Bob says: (65)

    December 7, 2013 at 12:46 pm
    I noticed from an earlier post that a Norman Wrighton was appointed to the board of The Rangers Football Club Limited yesterday.

    Does anyone know this gentleman?
    ____________________________________________________________________

    A cursory Google search bears little. According to 192.com, there are only two in the UK. One in Dorset and one in Northants.

    http://rangers.g3dhosting.com/regulatory_news_article/352

    14 November 2013

    Rangers International Football Club plc
    (the “Company”)

    Appointment of Director

    The Board of Rangers announces that it has appointed Norman Crighton as an independent non-executive director. Mr Crighton has been involved in most aspects of investment banking during the course of his 23 year career, including corporate finance, research and market-making, leading to institutional investment management. Having begun his career in corporate finance and sales at Olliff and Partners in 1990, he moved to LCF Edmond de Rothschild in 1993 before spending five years as a Senior Vice President at Merrill Lynch from 1994 to 1999. He then joined Jefferies International Limited as a Director of Funds and Related Products from 1999 to 2006. After this, he was an investment manager at Metage Capital Limited with an emphasis on performance analysis, company structure and corporate governance, focussing on UK main board and AIM quoted companies.

    Since 2011, institutional shareholders have appointed Mr Crighton to the boards of several UK listed companies to help with complex restructurings. He is a non-executive director of Trading Emissions PLC, Global Fixed Income Realisation Limited and Private Equity Investor PLC. Mr Crighton is also the non-executive chairman of Weiss Korea Opportunity Fund Ltd, a new company quoted on AIM in May of this year.

    Mr Crighton will chair a new Investment Committee of the board whose terms of reference will include overseeing capital projects. In accordance with Rangers’ Articles of Association Mr Crighton will be subject to re-appointment by an ordinary resolution at the upcoming Annual General Meeting of the Company on Thursday 19 December 2013.

    Mr Crighton holds a BA (Hons) in Applied Economics from his home city of Dundee and a MA in Finance and Investment from the University of Exeter.

    Further information concerning Mr Norman Crighton, aged 47:

    Current Partnerships and Directorships:
    Asia Biogas Singapore Pte Limited
    Global Fixed Income Realisation Limited
    Private Equity Investor Plc
    Trading Emissions Plc
    Universal Umvelt Ltd
    Weiss Korea Opportunity Fund Ltd
    World Firsts Organization Ltd

    Past Directorships and other positions:
    Big Bear Productions Limited

    Mr Crighton is not currently beneficially interested in the issued share capital of the Company.

    There is no further information required relating to Mr Crighton to be disclosed under paragraph (g) of Schedule 2 of the AIM Rules.

    For further information please contact:

    Rangers International Football Club plc

    Brian Stockbridge
    James Easdale
    Tel: 0141 580 8647

    Daniel Stewart & Company plc
    Tel: 020 7776 6550
    Paul Shackleton / James Thomas

    Newgate Threadneedle
    Tel: 020 7148 6143
    Graham Herring / Roddy Watt / John Coles

    Media House International Ltd
    Tel: 020 7710 0020
    Jack Irvine

    Buddy


  15. The atmosphere in and around Fir Park last night was pretty grim. Unfortunately FNF might only work for some fixtures.

    I don’t think any club went running to the media. I think ‘live on TV’ and the scale of the damage meant nobody really had to exert any effort in making the overall situation newsworthy.

    Most clubs have a problem to an extent. Motherwell had it it NDP last week, where our supporters broke some seats and let off smoke bombs.

    The level of the damage in the ground last night was considerable and even before kick off it was apparent the area in front of the south stand goal would be trashed given the concentration of bodies in there and the nature of their movement.

    I’m all for these groups being loud , vocal and colourful. Our group have been phenomenal in recent times in the main and last night they sang for the entire 90 minutes as a rampant Celtic steamrollered us. I’m even quite relaxed about smoke canisters if they are kept within the stadium (fireworks and flares are just mental). But as been said already some groups are getting to the unmanageable stage. there was no way on earth these guys were going to be controlled by stewards or police last night without it becoming a full scale disturbance.

    Celtic will square Motherwell up just as motherwell will square Hamilton up – it’s all just a bit f—-d up really. isn’t it?


  16. It’s a bit of a co-incidence that Norman Wrighton has apparently been appointed to the board of the club and there is a Norman Crighton on the board of the PLC.

    Could this be a case of “send three and fourpence”


  17. This morning most football fans should be concentrating their minds on the tremendous game of football played at Fir Park last night. In normal circumstances we would be talking about the quality of football played by Celtic, mention may also be made of Stuart McColls antics, and those of his captain. The spotlight should also be shone on what was an abysmal display by the match officials. One definite penalty, one almost certain other penalty, and on 2 occasions Motherwell defenders clearly putting the ball out for a corner, only for a bye kick to be awarded.
    But what are we discussing, quite rightly in my opinion? The actions of a large group of absolute morons who continue to bring the club and the game into disrepute.
    Until these people are identified, banned sine die from Celtic Park and prosecuted by the Authorities things are only going to get worse.
    Pandering to this minority group has brought this on Celtics head.
    The persons who were allocated seats in the area vandalised should immediately be banned. Celtic allocated the tickets, they know who they are. Ban them all, and give them the right of appeal.
    Can I make one final point. Can someone please tell me what on earth this vandalism is all about? Why vandalise Fir Park, what have Motherwell done? If the complaint is against Lawell and the Board why not vandalise Celtic Park?
    If it’s against the legislation and the Police why not complain to the politicians?
    What a shower of wasters. Time for Celtic to take strong action, and suffer the consequences for pandering to them to date.


  18. wildwood says: (28)
    December 7, 2013 at 1:03 pm
    ===========================
    A good post wildwood.


  19. billyj1 says: (105)
    December 7, 2013 at 1:12 pm

    This morning most football fans should be concentrating their minds on the tremendous game of football played at Fir Park last night. In normal circumstances we would be talking about the quality of football played by Celtic, mention may also be made of Stuart McColls antics, and those of his captain. The spotlight should also be shone on what was an abysmal display by the match officials. One definite penalty, one almost certain other penalty, and on 2 occasions Motherwell defenders clearly putting the ball out for a corner, only for a bye kick to be awarded.
    =============================================
    Cheers for reminding me of all that. I thought Lasley was acting like an idiot, and hopefully after he watches the rerun of the goal he will feel like one as well. I had to laugh at McCall coming on to pull Lasley away then starting to berate the Ref as well. As for the Refereeing decisions, they do not get discussed in the media anyway. The booking of Pukki, in particular, was an utter disgrace, and shame on the SFA for not putting in place a system that allows such bookings to be rescinded. The other penalty incident was the type you sometimes get, although I thought it was more of a penalty than the one awarded at Tynecastle last week.


  20. TSFM and Buddy

    Thanks. I got thrown off the sent by john clark’s typo!

    Norman Crighton it is.


  21. Para Handy says: (25)
    December 7, 2013 at 11:15 am

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25274432

    With this being the second time that CFC “fans” have trashed seats in a stadium within the last two seasons, I would hope that the book will be thrown at them, regardless of any outraged statements from the Club (as it should be for ANY multiple offender).

    The ONLY thing which will stop this from occurring, in my opinion, is draconian measures against the Club. Fines, while damaging the business bottom line, have no real impact on the fans who commit the offences (and from a footballing perspective, precious little on the Club either) so, what can be done?

    Closed door matches also penalise the opposition unless you only allow away fans in but then how can you really police that?

    Points deductions might work, perhaps three for a first offence but then any more and it starts to ramp up. Again might be hard to police as people could try to manipulate but there has to be an element of self-policing to this.
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    It was disgraceful and destructive behaviour and openly flouted the authority of Peter Lawwell, a well respected SFA Board member. For that reason alone the punishment should be swift and swingeing.

    If I have learned one thing from this blog it is that the SFA Rule Book is almost useless in a situation like this. Therefore, in these special circumstances a new punishment should be implemented on Monday. The result of the game should be reversed to award Motherwell a 5-0 win with an additional one point bonus for each goal and a fine of £5.5M. That will surely learn the Green Brigadistas.

    I suspect Lawwell, as a Board member, will try to block this proposal but as he is conflicted he should not be part of the disciplinary hearing,


  22. upthehoops says: (710)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:04 pm

    43

    29

    Rate This

    I notice posts appearing demanding action against Celtic because of the damage at Fir Park. As a Celtic fan my heart sank when I saw the smoke bombs and also the damage and there can be no excuse whatsover for that type of behaviour.

    What I do hope though is that Celtic no longer keep quiet about the damage caused at Celtic Park by travelling fans. I know for a fact significant damage was caused to the toilets recently by Aberdeen fans, and seats are regularly damaged. If there are to be demands for Celtic to be hammered, then these demands have to be across the board. These past few weeks a stranger would be forgiven for thinking Celtic had a massive hooligan element among their support. Who could possibly be driving this agenda among a media who are desperate to demonise the Celtic support at any turn? .
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Sometimes the media just report facts without an agenda. Last night some Celtic fans caused extensive damage to Fir Park. Stop making excuses and looking for Bogeymen.


  23. There is no excuse whatsoever for the behaviour of some of the Celtic “support” last night. Out and out vandalism, it’s as simple as that.

    If any of those involved can be identified then they should be banned from Celtic Park and the club should refuse to supply them with tickets for away games.

    Their kind are not wanted by the vast majority of the support.


  24. Paul Murray has just stated on sportsound that he and Malcolm Murray asked Mr. somers if he could detail the process of how he was appointed to the club…according to Paul Murray Mr. Somers said…he couldn’t remember how he got appointed??

    WTF…now makes sense when Mr. Somers said he would not recognise anything to do with the new club!


  25. As a Celtic fan I find last nights behaviour appaling by those few who caused the damage and the flares that were thrown..

    The quicker the authorities including Celtic identify these morons and deal with them the better..


  26. Tom English and Graeme Spiers.
    Good to hear from you both again.
    It’s always refreshing to get the views of two of the most highly respected sports journalists in the country.

    I must say that your damning words on the recent shameful behaviour of the erstwhile CEO of the SFA in laughing heartily, along with a roomful of like-minded individuals, at a clearly hilarious joke about child abuse has dispelled any doubts about the current health of your profession.

    Sorry. Did is say ‘words’? I meant ‘silence’.


  27. Surely someone in CFC crowd control and security advisors [they did employ them] should be spoken too, years ago we had the yellow jackets at away games ,particuarly Aberdeen,have they not learned anything from these times,obvisouly not ,surely a simple system should have been put in place to cross reference ticket allocation from games over the years and you then come up with common denominators to work from ,are the yellow jackets still traveling to away games .


  28. Just out of interest, it would appear that the person who thought a paedophile “joke” was appropriate and who caused such laughter from both the floor and the top table was apparently Robert Marshall, the bloke who owns the Louden Tavern.

    He certainly knows his clientele.


  29. Also as we know from past prize giving competitions at Celtic Park there is a very sophisticated cctv set-up in the ground where they can zoom in on a programme being held up ,can be very usefull a system like that.


  30. Surely the Police and stewards will have filmed the events when the vandalism was taking place. Could that not be used to identify those responsible, they can then be prosecuted in addition to being banned from football grounds.

    In fact, thinking about it, why don’t the clubs get together and do that themselves. Ban these people from all football grounds, they are not wanted by anyone.


  31. Sugar Daddy says: (149)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:27 pm
    44 3 Rate This
    Steff G, UTH
    Irrespective of whataboutery on damage at CP, this Celtic fan is sick and tired of the antics of the gb. They were indulged, they took advantage, they are now running amok.
    Close 111, split up the season books across the stadium, life ban for any found to have damaged Fir Park or any other stadium & Celtic should refuse to meet gb any more.
    Celtic will still be Celtic without the green brigade. The green brigade will be nothing without Celtic.
    Once Celtic do that, they can look at all other clubs and rightly ask what they are doing to irradiate hooligans from their fan base
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I agree with about 99% of that. But personally I’d be happy with eradicating the hooligan element. No one, no matter what they do, deserves to be irradiated. 😯


  32. As a Celtic fan I have found the behavior of the Green Brigade both offensive and disturbing. Their addition to the atmosphere at Celtic Park is on many occasions poisonous, and I think its time to lance the boil they have become.


  33. Celtic Football Club statement
    By: Newsroom Staff on 07 Dec, 2013 11:37
    CELTIC Football Club has released a statement following Friday night’s Premiership game against Motherwell at Fir Park.

    “Clearly we are appalled by the scenes from last night´s match and the actions of a small minority which have again tarnished the great reputation of the club and our supporters on a night when our team produced such a fantastic performance.

    “We are currently investigating these events and will update our supporters early next week.”


  34. upthehoops says: (710)
    December 7, 2013 at 12:04 pm
    52 35 Rate This

    I notice posts appearing demanding action against Celtic because of the damage at Fir Park. As a Celtic fan my heart sank when I saw the smoke bombs and also the damage and there can be no excuse whatsover for that type of behaviour.

    What I do hope though is that Celtic no longer keep quiet about the damage caused at Celtic Park by travelling fans. I know for a fact significant damage was caused to the toilets recently by Aberdeen fans, and seats are regularly damaged. If there are to be demands for Celtic to be hammered, then these demands have to be across the board. These past few weeks a stranger would be forgiven for thinking Celtic had a massive hooligan element among their support. Who could possibly be driving this agenda among a media who are desperate to demonise the Celtic support at any turn? .
    —————–
    Three Aberdeen fans arrested and charged for causing damage to the toilets.It was widely reported and condemned by all.


  35. Bill1903 says: (32)
    December 7, 2013 at 3:31 pm
    ==========================
    Reported on social media yes. Not mainstream.


  36. Tif Finn says: (960)
    December 7, 2013 at 3:14 pm
    =============================
    Don’t disagree with anything you say, but keeping a banned supporter out of every ground must be difficult, unless they have to report to their local police station at the time of every game involving the team they used to watch.


  37. Keeping banned people out of grounds would be difficult, however that does not stop clubs agreeing not to sell tickets to fans on a banned list. The very least the game should do is to make it as difficult as possible for these hooligans to get into football matches.

    Lots of things are difficult to do, that does not mean that they are not at least worth trying. For example if they are identified at a game then some sort of sanction could be taken against the person who got the ticket for them.

    Maybe if we can get them away from the game other people would want to go and support it.


  38. Simple solution is to ensure that like at Celtic Park, someone sitting in a seat can be traced. At Celtic Park, a season ticket holder has a seat assigned to him/her – or a ticket sold via a credit card. All you have to do is then hold the purchaser of the ticket to be responsible for the seat. Any breakages and the purchaser is liable for the damage.

    Same with away seats/tickets.

    Only bad part would be that this would also cut down on people selling tickets when plans change etc – but with the caveat no one would be too keen on touting tickets anyway!

    No one would be keen to leave their seat early either!

    Could work…………


  39. Am I not right in saying that it would have been Celtic who sold the tickets to it’s own supporters. Or would Motherwell have done that directly.

    Either way, the club who sold the ticket should know who they sold them to, unless it was a cash sale.

    Using that information and video from the event it should be possible to identify the people responsible for what happened.


  40. It is a touch unfortunate that the behaviour of Celtic fans is helping to maintain the “OF” “tradition” in the minds of everyone else. I hope Celtic and their people can deal with this Green Brigade, who seem a proper bunch of sinkplugs.

    Good to see Celtic trotting out a statement straight from the Old Firm Handbook, too. 🙂

    “we are appalled” … tick
    “small minority” … tick
    “fantastic performance” … tick
    “great reputation of the club” … tick

    🙄


  41. Knowing what I know about the ticket distribution at Celtic Park (I wrote some of the software) it should not be too difficult for Celtic to identify the individual fans who were sold tickets for last nights game. In the case of supporters clubs then they should be able to identify which clubs were given a ticket allocation and then ask them to identify the individuals they were sold on to. Warn the supporters clubs that they are now on probation and will be monitored very closely in future for ticket allocations. Its time to play hardball with these idiots. Anyone found guilty of such behaviour should be banned sine die. They tarnish the name of Celtic Football Club.


  42. Angus1983 says: (1279)
    December 7, 2013 at 4:58 pm
    2 0 Rate This

    It is a touch unfortunate that the behaviour of Celtic fans is helping to maintain the “OF” “tradition” in the minds of everyone else.
    ———————————
    True enough Angus but compare the condemnation on here by the vast majority to the ‘we’re not bothered’ by the punters on RM


  43. I didn’t accept the concept of “the old firm” when it was the old club.

    I have no intention of accepting it with the new one.

    There is no “old firm” there never was. As far as I am concerned it was a construct to allow the media to say Rangers fans when they wanted to, Celtic fans when they wanted to and Old Firm fans when they wanted to.


  44. Gents,

    Was it a co-incidence last night that all the young neds ended-up behind the goal , my experience going back a few years mind you , is that very often your seat is already occupied by aforementioned nutters and complaints to the nutters, stewards, and the police are met with just go and sit down somewhere. So tracing folk through credit card purchases is not going to work……

    Self-policing by the older and bigger supporters is required , stewards at £6 per hour cannot be expected to wade in to crowded stands , and modern policing involves 5 cops to arrest one individual , so it seems to me that the younger generation know that the chances are they will face no physical or legal sanction , for behaving like idiots.

    It’s Celtic today, Motherwell at NDP, Aberdeen a few weeks ago, coin throwing idiots at Ibrox , so there appears to be a trend in collective stupidity, the threat of being awoken from your slumber at 4am several months after an offence has been committed is not a deterrent.

    The police has a very difficult job but they do need a re-think on their approach before people get hurt rather than seats get broken. Passing a new law and seeing to do something is not the answer, I am not advocating an Amsterdam type approach to policing but the current approach is not working.


  45. My opinion is celtic have been hijacked by the organisers of the green brigade, this in not a story of football hooligans but a story of a clever political group hijacking members of the celtic fanbase to serve their own needs. Playing the long waiting game and now revealing there intentions shows to me a determined and committed leadership. Perhaps it is worth noting the green brigade bring nothing new to any debate.


  46. Sport sound call in tonight. Peter grant had the chance to make a statement but took the safe option “we want them back and, wouldn’t it be nice if those nice triers united and Aberdeen were strong too”. (Ok I maybe added a little sarcasm I confess). Best point was Kevin kyle’s. was a mirthful OCNC moment which is worth a listen back, but his co-incidental point which I will paraphrase as “what’s the point in them coming back if they make the same mistakes and go bust again.” Cue in depth discussion? Aye right!


  47. Bill1903 says:
    December 7, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    True enough Angus but compare the condemnation on here by the vast majority to the ‘we’re not bothered’ by the punters on RM
    ——
    Very true, Bill – although I fear not comparing like for like.

    After all, whilst RM is a Rangers forum, this – ahem – is a blog without overt allegiance to any one club.


  48. That is the point I and others have been making over and over.

    What is the point of Rangers getting a new board, or being promoted into the Championship / Premiership, or anything else really if they do not change the business model to make it sustainable.

    I have seen nothing, not one thing, to suggest that they are trying to do that.


  49. Angus1983 says: (1280)
    December 7, 2013 at 4:58 pm

    Love it
    A proper bunch of sink plugs


  50. Tif

    It’s worse than that of course. Our beloved SFA are in possession of a business plan that TRFC were obliged to forward them which cannot be being followed one would have thought. Unless they were going to accept we’re going to blow 22m destroying leagues 3 & 4 and then win the first floating on a cloud of goodwill, and then we’ll ignore the other 10 SPL teams because we’ll be challenging Celtic. They wouldn’t have accepted that as a plan, surely?


  51. martin c

    Your assessment may be correct, however I can’t accept that “clever” political activists have anything to gain by deliberately unleashing smoke bombs in a week when the use of these was being associated with vandalism. Nor is too politically clever to actually do vandalism either.

    I am not impressed by the Green Brigade myself. They certainly add great colour and noise to Celtic Park, but more than one Celtic fan has observed in my company that they are a bit self-important.

    “I’m of to a GB gig today” one friend has quipped, “Celtic are the support act!” 🙂

    I don’t think Celtic are being hijacked by the GB. I suspect rather that the GB has been hoist by the vanity petard – and attracted a bunch of neds who wouldn’t recognise a political thought if it fell on them from a great height.

    Cutting through all the nuances, what happened at Motherwell last night was embarrassing, heart-sinking and appalling to most Celtic fans, and merely appalling to everyone else. The pity from Celtic’s point of view is that after decades of excellent publicity and a reputation of good behaviour amongst their fans, there is a real danger that recent events will kill that stone dead.

    I hope the Celtic board react to this with as much urgency as they and the rest of the SPL clubs did when it looked as if there would be no Rangers to play in future. If the clubs are serious about rooting out this type of behaviour, they need to be prepared to lose the revenue that these idiots bring. I live in hope, but not expectation.

    I think that the attribution of guilt based on the allocation of tickets is fraught with difficulty. It may at least be a start, but there could be problems associated with it which make folk less inclined to travel to away grounds. Given the recent evidence that the absence of Rangers travelling support in the SPL has caused no hardship to clubs, perhaps Motherwell and others would not be too unhappy to see an end to the tradition of travelling to away games.

    Also, the problem is not restricted to just one or two clubs; although the bigger the travelling support, the bigger and louder and uglier the problem appears to be. Maybe the events of the last few weeks will convince us that hooliganism and vandalism is not a genetically predisposed trait based on what club you support, but is a quantity arrived at in inverse proportion to intelligence and economic circumstances.


  52. Angus1983 says: (1280)
    December 7, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    2 0 Rate This
    Bill1903 says:
    December 7, 2013 at 5:05 pm
    True enough Angus but compare the condemnation on here by the vast majority to the ‘we’re not
    bothered’ by the punters on RM
    ——
    Very true, Bill – although I fear not comparing like for like.
    After all, whilst RM is a Rangers forum, this – ahem – is a blog without overt allegiance to any one club.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    But Angus, RM is just the same. They don’t have allegiance to one club either! 😉


  53. Angus1983 says: (1280)
    December 7, 2013 at 6:23 pm
    4 1 Rate This

    Bill1903 says:
    December 7, 2013 at 5:05 pm

    True enough Angus but compare the condemnation on here by the vast majority to the ‘we’re not bothered’ by the punters on RM
    ——
    Very true, Bill – although I fear not comparing like for like.

    After all, whilst RM is a Rangers forum, this – ahem – is a blog without overt allegiance to any one club.

    ================
    Check http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/8877514/329/

    The condemnation is almost universal.


  54. The business plan they supplied to the authorities could have been like the prospectus they provided to prospective investors. A lot of lies.

    In fact if it wasn’t exactly the same thing, then I suspect it was very close to it.


  55. The simplest and most effective way for Celtic to diffuse the GB issue is to acknowledge publicly that criminal acts are being carried out and that those responsible should expect no favour from the Club when it comes to identification and action by the police. Clear distance needs to be made between the Clubs position and any possible suggestion by the media or others of inaction against a hooligan fringe.
    Anything else allows the establishment to use the MSM for whataboutery as happened very quickly last night. It was reminiscent of the Rob MacLean song singing mystery, albeit on this occasion the Celtic fans were very clearly in the wrong.
    As an aside, how did the team from Ibrox get on with its minutes applause for the ‘commie terrorist’ today.


  56. Big Pink

    I agree with your analysis.

    The difficulty we have is not having access to the focus intelligence which i think would lay bare the political connections of the GB organisers.


  57. BP

    Nicely put.

    The Greetin’ Brigade have stuck two fingers up at Celtic, Celtic’s response needs to be decisive.


  58. As a ‘well supporter I can say nothing about the damage at FP as our own little bunch of neds did the self same thing at NDP earlier in the week.
    I agree with Cosgrove. These groups enliven the grounds but when they think they are bigger than the club it all implodes.


  59. ianagain says: (48)
    December 7, 2013 at 7:46 pm

    Couldn’t agree more that these groups are now causing an unhealthy atmosphere.

    At a time when fans are looking to have safe standing areas brought back to top league stadia these morons allow the authorities every excuse to deny it.
    I also liked the discussion on off the ball today when, I think, everyone agreed that football is far safer today than it was in the 70’s and 80’s and yet that does not detract from the dangers the current actions are causing. Perhaps the individuals, when identified, should be locked in one of the army training rooms where they test tear gas and then allow one of these canisters to be set off. When the have no opportunity to escape they may perhaps finally understand how some of the fans with disabilities, as well as breathing difficulties, feel when a smoke bomb is let off close to them.

    I think everyone agrees that these groups bring atmosphere to our grounds but what we are witnessing now is not atmosphere it is down right wanton destruction on a scale rarely seen in Scotland.
    When I say rarely I mean until recently as it is becoming clear that these incidents are increasing in an almost weekly basis and it is high time it was stamped out.


  60. No1 Bob says: (66)
    December 7, 2013 at 1:50 pm
    ‘… I got thrown off the sent by john clark’s typo!
    Norman Crighton it is….’
    ———
    Apologies for that, folks! Don’t know how i managed to hit a ‘w’ for a ‘c’. Possibly tired and emotional, and minus specs!


  61. Anyhow on to other matters.

    1. What happened to the (various) Charlottes.
    2. What happened to the BDO v Collyer Bristow v Craigie v The pension fund
    3. Where stands Craigie V Ticketus round 2..

    Everyone’s focussed on the AGM. It will count for nothing should one of 2 or 3 throw up something untoward.
    Much more fun awaits.


  62. And the Sportsound propaganda machine keeps working away! Was that Peter Grant waxing lyrical about how he just lived for Celtic v new club games? That that was what his football was all about? That Scottish Football needed such games?
    I can feel a strong reproachful letter to the ‘Peter Grant Celtic Supporters’ Club coming on. If there is still such an entity. A name change might be appropriate after that load of guff.
    I was always a great admirer of Peter’s one-legged 360 degree turns. Like watching the old ‘Laird’s Loch’ trying to berth at the Broomielaw on an ebb tide.
    He has now annoyed me, big time.


  63. lots has already been said, but as a Celtic fan, i’m disgusted at the increasingly common behaviour of some of our support.

    It’s a big ask for an individual to face these neds down, and the stewards and police are hopelessly outnumbered.

    I hope the club takes strong action to prevent repeats of this behaviour, and if that means NO Celtic supporter is supplied a ticket for an away game, then so be it. The club knows who has bought the tickets, time to start banning folk. Supporters buses know who was involved – time to turn in your own members.


  64. Unacceptable behaviour, it must be stopped.

    I don’t get the condemnation/ribbing of PL by fans of other clubs, he’s getting it from the GB for standing up to them, criticised for being complicit by many more, he gets pelters at almost every turn from the same folk who accused him of not using his power to end the corruption of a nation. I don’t get it, what more can he do than apologise?

    I would not be at all surprised if a very successful boardroom is being targeted for unrest, aided by their own moron element, irony is a bitch.

    Keep up the good work.


  65. I appreciate that many on here don’t appreciate the SPFL but I’d like to relay a highly positive experience I’ve had with them.

    A few weeks ago, I’d posted some comments regarding the SPFL’s online output and, based on that, had actually been contacted by them. As a result, I ended up meeting with two representatives from the SPFL on Thursday (I won’t name names as, tbh, I’m unsure exactly how on the record meeting someone who could be accused of being a bampot is). Suffice to say, in addition to being thoroughly pleasant company, their ears were open. What struck me was that both were young, both were highly energised, both clearly enjoyed their work and both were open to listening. Savvy about the game (I’ll admit they possessed football brains ahead of anyone else I’ve ever encountered), open to new ideas and proactively chasing others to ensure that the content put forward is as good as possible.

    Too often we give in to ranting at uselessness, etc – I can honestly say that if you put a good point across coherently and deal with it in an even-handed manner, the SPFL is full of people who are prepared to listen and prepared to take action with what resources they can to ensure the best for the game as a whole. The entire reason they were in the area was due to being at a conference dealing specifically with how to innovate and improve fan experiences. The feeling I came away with was overwhelmingly positive – we all know that, like in any organisation, there are roadblocks to progress. I can honestly say that if the SPFL fills itself with people like this, then the future of Scotland’s league administration is bright. It may take a few years for this generation to break through to the top, but if it does, I’ll be a happy camper.


  66. Tif Finn says: (966)
    December 7, 2013 at 5:13 pm

    I didn’t accept the concept of “the old firm” when it was the old club.
    I have no intention of accepting it with the new one.

    There is no “old firm” there never was. As far as I am concerned it was a construct to allow the media to say Rangers fans when they wanted to, Celtic fans when they wanted to and Old Firm fans when they wanted to.
    ++++++++++++
    My mind boggles when I read this.

    The term “Old Firm” is a label folk have used – of all allegiances, from all clubs – as a shorthand for saying “Rangers and Celtic”.

    That’s it. It’s a label, a nickname. A piece of common parlance that will be around for as long as a football team called Rangers and a football team called Celtic are in competition with eachother – which they still are, indirectly for now, regardless of “new club” theories or not, the team wearing that former name is still there on the vidiprinters and the fixture lists.

    I struggle to understand the mentality of the “ban the term Old Firm” crowd.
    There is nothing intrinsically offensive about the words, there is no more baggage associated to the term than would be commuicated by instead stating “Rangers & Celtic” or vice versa.

    Do people want ANY references to “Rangers & Celtic” banned? What terms, in all seriousness, would be acceptable to these people if someone was wishing to refer to the two teams in one sentence? Is the mere intent to do so a shameful act in itself?!


  67. Personally, I don’t care which club’s colours these idiots are wearing. Throwing incendiary devices in a crowded place is dangerous. The football authorities and Police Scotland need to act decisively to stop it before somebody is seriously injured.
    Earlier this season Partick Thistle had to change seating arrangements for supporters of one visiting team because of the danger of fire in the old Main Stand. Such action condones the use of these devices. The tail is wagging the dog.


  68. That’s the point, who these idiots claim to support is irrelevant.

    They are a danger to others and a blight on the game.


  69. were the sniffer dogs there ?
    or did they get scent off ?


  70. bryce9a says:
    December 7, 2013 at 9:50 pm

    Do people want ANY references to “Rangers & Celtic” banned? What terms, in all seriousness, would be acceptable to these people if someone was wishing to refer to the two teams in one sentence? Is the mere intent to do so a shameful act in itself?!
    ==========================================================

    MMMmmmmmmmmmmm! Let me think now? in one sentence? How about:

    1. Celtic vs Sevco?
    2. The former “old firm” foes?
    3. That other club is Deid!

    And finally, “Is the mere intent to do so a shameful act in itself?!”

    Actually, yes it is bryce9a.

    You’re club is DEID, no more no less! There is no more “old firm”!

    In case you haven’t noticed bryce9a, you have a Civil War going on at your own relatively new young club, which is struggling to find its own identity going forward. The club you support now is not part of “The Old Firm” anymore, it gave that up 2 years ago!

    If I were you, I would concentrate on making sure you still have a team to go and watch every 2 weeks without worrying whether you will ever be part of “The Old firm” again!

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