On the Old Club vs New Club (OCNC) debate, the SFA’s silence has been arguably the most damaging factor with respect to the future of the game. Of course people get frustrated when there is a deliberate policy of silence on the part of the SFA which results in the endless cycle of arguments being trotted out again and again with no resolution or closure possible.
The irony (it’s only irony if you assume that the SFA have gone to great lengths to create the conditions for the unbroken history status of the new club) is that the mealy-mouthed attitude they have adopted has actually polarised opinion in a far more serious and irreconcilable way than had they just made a clear statement when Sevco were handed SFA membership. A bit of leadership, with a decision either way at that time would have spiked a lot of OCNC guns very early on, but as history shows, they were afraid of a backlash from wherever it came.
I am now convinced that Scottish Football has passed the Event Horizon and is broken beyond the possibility of any repair that might have taken it back to its pre-2010 condition. Rangers fans will never – no matter what any eventual pronouncement from Hampden may be – accept that their next trophy will be their first. The trouble is that no-one else – again despite anything from Hampden – will cast them as anything else other than a new club who were given a free passage into the higher echelons of the game. Furthermore, they will forever force that down the throats of Rangers fans whenever and wherever they play. A recipe for discord, threats of violence, actual violence, and a general ramping up of the sectarian gas that we had all hoped, only a year or so ago, was to be set to an all-time low peep.
There is a saying in politics that we get the government we deserve. It works both ways though, and the SFA will get the audience it deserves. In actual fact it is the one it has actively sought over the last couple of years, for they have tacitly (and even perhaps explicitly) admitted that Scottish Football is a dish best served garnished with sectarianism. They have effectively told us that without it, the game cannot flourish, and they stick to that fallacy even although the empirical evidence of the past year indicates otherwise.
That belief is an intellectual black-hole they have now thrust the game into. They have effectively said that only two clubs actually matter in Scottish football. The crazy thing is that to put their plans into action they have successfully persuaded enough of the other clubs to jump into the chasm and hence vote themselves into irrelevance and permanent semi-obscurity.
That belief is also shared by the majority in the MSM, who despite their lofty, self-righteous and ostensibly anti-sectarian stance, have done everything they can to stir the hornet’s nest in the interests of greater sales.
Act as an unpaid wing of a PR company, check nothing, ask nothing, help to create unrest, and then tut-tut away indignantly like Monty Python Pepperpots when people take them to task.
Consequently the victims of all the wrongdoing (creditors and clubs) walk away without any redress or compensation for the loss of income and opportunity (and history) – stripped of any pride and dignity since they do so in the full knowledge of what has happened. But even as they wipe away the sand kicked in their faces, those clubs still insist on the loyalty of their own fanbases, the same fans whose trust they have betrayed with their meek acceptance of the new, old order.
The kinder interpretation of the impotence of the clubs is that they want to avoid the hassle and move on, the more cynical view that they are interested only in money, not people. In either case, sporting integrity, in the words of Lord Traynor of Winhall (Airdrie, not Vermont), is “crap”.
The question is; which constituency of 21st century Scotland subscribes to that 17th century paradigm?
Sadly, this massive hoax, this gigantic insult to our collective intelligence, is working. Many will leave the game – many already have in view of the spineless absence of intervention from their own clubs – but many, many more will stay and support the charade.
If you doubt my prediction, ask yourself how many tickets will be unsold the first time the New Rangers play Celtic at Parkhead? That my friends will be final imprimatur of authenticity on just exactly who New Rangers are, no matter the proclamations of both sides of the OCNC argument.
Was it because one of them is a Plc Director and the other was a TRFC Director who was invited to answer questions on the “footballing side” of things because Ally can’t be trusted to get that bit right?
Returning to the AGM did no-one actually ask where ownership of Ibrokes, etc lies? Is it still with TRFC or is it now with RIFC?
A follow up if the answer had been ‘TRFC’ would then be ‘is there a plan to pass ownership to RIFC in settlement of outstanding debts?” In fact, did anyone ask what the current TRFC debt position was and how it was going to be addressed?
As DJ said under Company Law the Board would have to tell the truth! š
Even our financially-challenged MSM must see a looming problem for TRFC – a huge build up of debt and no obvious means of dealing it with apart from giving up ownership of Ibrokes, etc to the Spiv-owned RIFC?
Hello, hello, wake up and smell the coffee!
Scottish Football needs a cure for the hard of thinking.
JLeeHooker says: (80)
December 20, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Andy Kerr, president of the Rangers Supporters Assembly, one of Rangersā largest supporters groups, has warned the board and fellow fans that a boycott of the club could have catastrophic consequences and fears the Glasgow outfit will not survive another financial catastrophe following the liquidation crisis last summer.
Full story: The Scotsman
Here is some news for Andy, they did not survive the last financial catastrophe š
_________________________________________-
I wonder if the writer of the above piece used the description ‘the Glasgow outfit’ deliberately rather than ‘the Glasgow club’ to avoid a clash with the NC/OC debate?
In comparison with some of the words used by the MSM when describing the entity from Ibrox the use of the word ‘outfit’ seems somewhat derogatory, but undoubtedly much braver, and accurate (less inaccurate?), than the usual sycophantic succulent lamb effort to keep the ‘club’ myth going.
120 days seems a long time to conduct a financial review There must be significance in the time scale, as others have noted it is to coincide with the season tickets going on sale. The outcome will be “we are bust give us money now”. But that must already be obvious today from BS’s cashflow projections.
I’ve taken this from the LSE message board. It appears, that in the light of football “clubs” being indestructible, administration is now a very palatable way of curing one’s financial problems. This Sevco fan certainly sees this as an acceptable escape route.
http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=RANGERS_INT
————————————————–
Today 12:50cloutieRE: Radical change for the better33.50No Opinion
A lot of common sense in all that, BlueOrder, but the big problem is that far too many people are on long term, big money contracts. Getting rid of such people is very expensive, and there doesn’t appear to be enough money left to fund such pay-offs. There’s no point raking over the past regarding why these people are on such generous contracts, but the problem is, what can be done now. Administration of TRFC gives the opportunity to break these contracts, and start afresh with a realistic cost base. I simply cannot see an alternative way forward. At the moment the board seem to be just waiting until the money finally runs out. That’s not a strategy at all. As for the 120 day review that has been announced, will the money not run out first? What’s to do that takes 4 months? I am very concerned that I’ve been sold a pup here.
Just for my own amusement, I just watched Charles Green’s message to “Rangers” fans from last Christmas on Youtube.
Completely surreal.
It’s a hard time to follow Sevco, and it looks like it’s going to get a lot, lot worse!
Was SE not introduced as football “chairman” at the AGM. What was his title on any LSE notes. I believe he is Rory Bremner, doing a job on Joanna Lumley’s closest shave.
GeronimosCadillac says: (146)
December 20, 2013 at 2:11 pm
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December 20, 2013 at 12:58 pm
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December 19, 2013 at 9:14 pm
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wottpi says: (1344)
December 19, 2013 at 12:49 pm
So if Graham Wallace is the man with the track record in running football clubs then it is clear that austerity is required to overcome āshort term profitability challengesāā¦
========================================================
I think we need to be clear about the great saviour Graham Wallaceā¦.this is a man with no plc CEO history and the man who presided over a world record loss of Ā£197 million pounds at Man City before he leftā¦ā¦.when Celtic were struggling they were fortunate to get Fergus Mc Cann ā¦ā¦..TRIFC get a world record loss maker although if you read the press he is ārespected etcā. I really do not understand any of this. The CEO of a public company states openly that he is conducting a 120 days full review because cash is at a premium. What do think shareholders will make of thatā¦administration or dilutionā¦.winners!
120 days seems a long time to conduct a financial review There must be significance in the time scale, as others have noted it is to coincide with the season tickets going on sale. The outcome will be āwe are bust give us money nowā. But that must already be obvious today from BSās cashflow projections.
——————————————————————————————————————————————
Geronimo
I think you are absolutely correct that the 120 days timescale is significant. I suspect that the fans (yet again) will be hit with a serious hike in season tickets prices accompanied with the “we need your help or we may have serious financial problems” line…….yet again.
Looks like lots of small shareholders are bailing out – fans I guess. So many will have paid Ā£250 for a season ticket and at least the same lost on shares that have halved in value over the year. So paying double for a season ticket next year should not seem excessive.
redlichtie says: (301)
December 20, 2013 at 2:07 pm
Returning to the AGM did no-one actually ask where ownership of Ibrokes, etc lies? Is it still with TRFC or is it now with RIFC?
***************
This is the beauty of the confusion laid down and allowed by our good friends at the SFA,
Yesterday was an AGM of a company who does not own the share/membership of SFA – that belongs to a different company TRFC. Yet we were led to believe that yesterday was all about the club and finding its soul.
By enabling folks like Bryce to spout his club/company stuff, the MSM have fogged over the separation of the two items – so much so that the spivs could say with all truthfulness – Ibrox will be owned by the club. Whether they mean the club (RIFC) or the club (TRFC) no one seems to care – but nothing said yesterday clarified it.
So if asked yesterday – will the club sell Ibrox – the answer is no, we won’t sell it to another entity. Do “we” own it? Of course we do. Is it ours? Of course it is. They will be forever correct when RIFC and TRFC are both treated as the club – whether internally, it is owned/sold by TRFC to RIFC, it is still owned by the “club”.
For this we have the SFA to thank – the same organisation that did not invoke its rules and strip RFC-NIL of its membership immediately after it became clear that when the CVA was rejected, RFC-NIL could no longer operate with a stadia or playing staff, as per its rules. Instead SFA allowed RFC-NIL to remain a SFA member until the 5 way agreement when it allowed the transfer – however RFC-NIL should never have been in possession of it according to the SFA rulebook. Did Gretna get 2 months to figure it all out?
You would think someone at SFA were in cahoots with the spivs…….
120 days for a financial review? What has Mr BS (Ā©) been doing? Has he not got his finger on the pulse?
It reminds me of the TV comedy āSoapā, mentioned on this forum recently, where Burt is given 5 months to live ā everyone else, he says, gets six months to live but he only gets five!
So is it 120 days to live and counting?
Seriously, what ārespectedā CEO faced by āshort term profitability challengesā takes four months to come up with an answer?
This is BS as Mr Financial Director would undoubtedly say.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
redlichtie says: (302)
December 20, 2013 at 2:39 pm
We are now at 119 days and counting!
Exiled Celt says: (872)
December 20, 2013 at 2:35 pm
Yet we were led to believe that yesterday was all about the club and finding its soul.
========================================================================
Those with most to lose seem the least interested in knowing the truth. If they see their current predicament as “already been punished enough” I can’t wait to hear how they’ll describe the bulldozers moving in while the spivs gather at one of their chateaux for a knees-up.
The new CEO’s 120-day review seems like a ruse to delay the hard decisions until the end of the football season.
By then there may well be only one option: Administration.
It seems incredible that the Financial Director, Stockbridge, could announce that “wages” were Ā£18million and “one-off costs” were Ā£10million.
How much of that Ā£28million involved the Spivs creaming off exorbitant fees?
And that’s before we even talk about share options.
Mr Alistair Murdoch McCoist MBE has had his compliance bought by means of a ludicrous salary and a million shares. When his new club dies, he will bear a massive share of the blame for his silence.
As for Mr Whyte and Ticketus . . .
Octopus investments have a friend in Mr Stockbridge.
And I find it hard to believe that Whyte does not know the Abela clan from Lebanon, who are the holders of the Blue Pitch Holdings and Margarita Trust (and other) investments, given that they have a base in Monaco (like Whyte) and lived in Grasse in the south of France (like Whyte).
In fact, did David Murray not have interests in that neck of the woods too?
The fervent interest of Jack Irvine in this whole scam has always made me suspect that Minty Moonbeams is in there somewhere.
ecobhoy says: (2083)
December 19, 2013 at 9:54 pm
āI just canāt see anyone investing in Rangers unless they are certifiable so some kind of property sale and lease back is the only possibility of keeping the durnstiles open unless a great deal of sleight of hand is applied to share dealing in the AIM casinoā.
_____________________________________________________
There have been many suggestions that a sale of Ibrox and a lease back to Sevco is a way out for the ailing club, but I canāt understand why anyone would get involved in such a deal anymore than they would rush to invest in the football club.
Since it seems to be the accepted wisdom that the stadium and ground are suitable only for a football club and may prove difficult to sell otherwise, why would anyone rely on Sevcoās ability to remain financially stable enough to pay what would probably be a high rent?
Selling Ibrox, (assuming they own it in the first place) would raise much needed capital, but the track record so far would indicate a cavalier attitude to spending, so what happens when the fistfull of cash has been spent?
Back to square one!
Jusy exactly who would buy Ibrox and take such a risk?
m.c.f.c. says: (77)
December 20, 2013 at 2:46 pm
===============================
Your reference to bulldozers made me smile when thinking back to a phone call to Radio Clyde a few years ago. The Sunday Mail, in one last final show of blinkered loyalty to David Murray, had run with the quite ridiculous story that Ibrox was being redeveloped to the tune of Ā£700M – I’m sure we all remember the story. An excited Rangers fan called Radio Clyde to ask Derek Johnstone if he knew when work would be starting. Big Derek answered that his information was that planning consent etc would take a couple of years following which you will see the bulldozers moving in. Incredible, but true!
upthehoops says: (749)
December 20, 2013 at 2:53 pm
Incredible, but true!
================================================================================
Wow – just five years ago – no wonder the bears are having trouble adjusting.
Rangers consider open-roof stadium with new-look Ibrox to host megastars
By PETER JARDINE, Last updated at 09:40 07 January 2008
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-506533/Rangers-consider-open-roof-stadium-new-look-Ibrox-host-megastars.html
Reilly1926 says: (212)
December 20, 2013 at 2:20 pm
2 0 Rate This
Iāve taken this from the LSE message board. It appears, that in the light of football āclubsā being indestructible, administration is now a very palatable way of curing oneās financial problems. This Sevco fan certainly sees this as an acceptable escape route.
http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=RANGERS_INT
————-
Was that the first sign that Mr Wallace isn’t all that he’s cracked up to be? I’d have thought 120 hours brainstorming could achieve a great deal. I’d like to see what kind of contract he’s on.
No1 Bob says: (70)
December 20, 2013 at 2:46 pm
We are now at 119 days and counting!
=================================================================================
Minus a few bank holidays coming up – oh and Valentine’s Day – you wouldn’t want to forget Valentine’s Day
john clarke says: (1455)
December 19, 2013 at 9:46 pm
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Here is the view from Roddy Forsyth ( in āThe Telegraphā online today):
āIf you had a quid for every time someone has declared that āthere must be a book in this Rangers situationā you could have bought the club yourself.
_______________________________________
Or you could have just handed over the pound.
The 120 days does 2 things – gives GW breathing space from press/fans & time to get some cash in.
He may announce his plan in a dazzling powerpoint presentation on day 120 to all and sundry but he should be getting on with it from Jan 6th. I say “should” as no guarantee he’ll be allowed to do anything that might jeopardise the spivs own plans by the placemen Easdales.
So what’s he going to do?
Selling players must be very high if not top of his do list.
Cammy Bell, Lee Wallace, Arnold Peralta are all sellable assets worth what? A combined Ā£1.5m & there may be interest from Eng Championship or abroad for some or all. There are others Templeton, Shiels, Clark, Law, Black, Macleod who could be shifted for nominal fees to other clubs who will have sold eg Dundee United or looking to strengthen eg Hibs, Aberdeen, I’ness. There could be as much as Ā£2million here in total transfer fees.
Cutting Costs.
He will have seen the books, he is ex Ernst & Young so will be very clear where he can cut costs. However, all those cushy contracts the spivs & their mates have may cause him some grief with the Easdales. Ally’s salary is halved immediately with no negotiation.
Credit Line
It is more likely he will look, as has been suggested earlier, at securing some credit against the big hoose. Who gave them the unsecured Ā£2.5m? Can he get that increased or find other fools willing to pony up money for the furnace?
Meanwhile, the spivs must be using the time bought by their AGM success to finalise their exit. It seems focus is very much on Mr Wallace and his 120 days to save Rangers plan. They can get on with transferring assets to RIFC and readying the sale of TRFC.
If it all comes together Rangers future is still at Ibrox with a mid table Premiership squad of 16 renting their stadium. Wallace saves Rangers, spivs get their property co and a nice rental, and there is something for Dave King to throw some money at if he wants on field success perhaps with a pre-agreed price on Ibrox & MP.
Just one wee thing’s been bothering me. Did they approve the minutes of the last meeting?
nickmcguinness says: (151)
December 20, 2013 at 2:46 pm
The new CEOās 120-day review seems like a ruse to delay the hard decisions until the end of the football season…
=========
Yes, it does smack of a crude ploy to buy a lot of time – 120 days – whilst simultaneously dealing with a presumably critical ‘short term profitability challenge’ ? That is illogical captain… š
The oft quoted ‘April’ crunch month is – IMO – the best case scenario, not the worst case scenario.
The TRFC directors could ‘reasonably’ hope to sell a player(s) during January to keep the lights on.
But we all know that transfer activity – if it happens at all – tends to be completed at about 11.59PM on the last day of the window.
IF anyone was interested in buying a TRFC player they would string out negotiations and take full advantage of TRFC’s financial ‘challenges’ as helpfully confirmed by the RIFC plc CEO yesterday !
If nobody is sold in January, I think it’s admin in February.
Valentine’s Day is on a Friday…
Famous song says: (38)
December 20, 2013 at 3:30 pm
Just one wee thingās been bothering me. Did they approve the minutes of the last meeting?
=========================
Well spotted that man ! š
loamfeet says: (59)
December 20, 2013 at 8:00 am
21 0 Rate This
Phoenixism is about the directors not the company. If HMRC judge the NewCo to be a phoenix company they can pursue individual directors for the liabilities of the OldCo. The new Rangers would never become liable for the old Rangersā debts but the directors of the old board might, which ties in with HMRCās reason for preferring liquidation and the appointment of BDO.
————-
@606AlfieCoon went on to say this:
So, trading on the goodwill of the Oldco is of no consequence?
MoreCelticParanoia says: (93)
December 20, 2013 at 3:19 pm
1 0 Rate This
john clarke says: (1455)
December 19, 2013 at 9:46 pm
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Here is the view from Roddy Forsyth ( in āThe Telegraphā online today):
āIf you had a quid for every time someone has declared that āthere must be a book in this Rangers situationā you could have bought the club yourself.
_______________________________________
Or you could have just handed over the pound.
========================================
I’m guessing roddy forsyth is ignorant of the fact a real journalist has indeed written a book (well two actually)
About the death of Rangers(NIL) and indeed how the ignoramuses in the SMSM
(aka – the succulent lamb munchers) failed to report the truth and ask any pertinent questions
…ironically – roddy forsyth included !
I’m afraid the books will be a bit more expensive than 1 quid though – roddy.
[it’s called downfall]
StevieBC says: (954)
December 20, 2013 at 3:38 pm
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Famous song says: (38)
December 20, 2013 at 3:30 pm
Just one wee thingās been bothering me. Did they approve the minutes of the last meeting?
=========================
Well spotted that man !
==========================
I know it’s a rhetorical question, but incase there is any average IQ Sevconians looking in
(That includes fraser wishart, billy dodds, graham spiers, kenny macintyre, mark guidi etc etc)
And also any Sevconians with a low IQ, e,g – hugh keevins, BFDJ, jack irvine etc etc
That was Rangers International Football Club’s FIRST ever AGM.
(Im not sure when The Rangers Football Club LTD will have their FIRST ever AGM.
Maybe someone knows) ?
Good article by PhilG on Stockbridge – http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/the-significance-of-brian-stockbridge/
The only point I’d contest is Phil’s theme that BS’s wildly inaccurate financial predictions were incompetence – I’m more inclined to believe they were honest mistakes in the service of friends and benefactors.
So Sevco are in goods hands šÆ
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2003/jan/21/business1
tomtom says: (524)
December 20, 2013 at 3:09 pm
Both Easdale brothers sit on the football club board.
http://companycheck.co.uk/company/SC425159/THE-RANGERS-FOOTBALL-CLUB-LIMITED/directors-shareholders
Danish Pastry says: (1819)
December 20, 2013 at 3:40 pm
So, trading on the goodwill of the Oldco is of no consequence?
============================
Not in itself. It is very common for one company to buy another’s goodwill, and carry on the trade as before. HMRC have no problem whatsoever with that, so long as the buyer and seller are at arms length. HMRC are only interested where there is Phoenix trading, which is where the people behind the old company acquire its assets through a new company, and carry on as before, leaving the debt behind.
If it is a fact that HMRC consider the current Ibrox set-up to be a Phoenix, (and I know nothing about what HMRC believe) then that can only mean that HMRC believe that Whyte (or even, dare I say it, Sir David Murray) is still running the show at Ibrox.
jimlarkin says: (708)
December 20, 2013 at 3:51 pm
5 0 Rate This
That was Rangers International Football Clubās FIRST ever AGM.
(Im not sure when The Rangers Football Club LTD will have their FIRST ever AGM.
Maybe someone knows) ?
========================================================================
Presumably, as a private company, they won’t have an AGM ever, as it is not required under company law. If only PLCs were subject to the same level of rigor!
Craig Whyte: The former Rangers owner has accused his ex-housekeepers of stealing from him.SNS Group
Ex-Rangers owner Craig Whyte had extinguishers repossessed over an unpaid bill despite threats to firebomb his castle, a court has heard.
The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service were said to be alarmed about the lack of blaze precautions at his Castle Grant home in the Highlands, a trial at Inverness Sheriff Court heard.
Two of his former housekeepers, Jane Hagan, 51, and 53-year-old Terence Hogan are accused of stealing thousands of pounds worth of items while they were employed by Mr Whyte at his Grantown on Spey residence.
Ms Hagan told the court of late salary payments coming from different companies and a failure by Mr Whyte to pay tax and national insurance on their wages.
She said: “We got two wage slips in eight months. They stated he had paid our tax and national insurance. After we were sacked, we contacted HMRC and were told that nothing had ever been paid during our employment.
“Sometimes we were paid five weeks late and often from different sources. Once we were paid from a company called Tixway, another time from Liberty Corporation and a couple of times by his father.”
She also spoke of the stress she and her husband were under when the threats were made against Mr Whyte and the Castle. The accused added: “There were none against us specifically. But there were nine against Mr Whyte, including one on a Facebook page to firebomb the castle. He did not seem concerned and had a cavalier attitude about it.
“An insurance company came to the castle concerned about its fire precautions and its condition. The electrics had been badly installed and the sprinkler system was redundant. Fire experts came and gave us a proposal to replace it. But Mr Whyte did nothing about it.
“The fire service also came and were horrified to see no fire precautions where the family and the children stayed. We got new extinguishers put in but he didn’t pay the bill and they took them back. We bought two of them ourselves for our own safety.
“He was pretty distant and liked to remain private. I would do the cooking and cleaning and order the food and wine. He wanted the castle run like a five star hotel. After a while we had problems getting supplies because he wasn’t paying the suppliers.”
Hagan also spoke of the Bank of Scotland phoning the castle to have a message passed on to Whyte of the seriousness of situation surrounding the mortgage on the castle.
She added: “It was several months behind and it was clear there was a danger the castle would be re-possessed. He told us he wasn’t going to come back to the castle and we were instructed to have items put in storage. He went with a low loader to take a tractor and mower to Glasgow and had my husband arrange to store a quad bike and a clay pigeon shoot trap at an acquaintance of Mr Whyte’s.”
These are among the huge array of items Hagan and Horan are accused of stealing from Mr Whyte between June 1 and September 7, 2012.
Mr Whyte purchased an 85% in Rangers from Sir David Murray in May 2011 for Ā£1 before it went into administration in February last year.
STV News at Six
Craig Whyte ‘did not pay extinguisher bill despite castle bomb threat’
STV 20 December 2013 15:06 GMT
Alex Thomson’s blog on David Limond seems to have provoked quite an agitated response from some who seem to think Angela Haggertyās opinions on the Ranger saga are mitigating factors.
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/headline-written/6897
neepheid says: (940)
December 20, 2013 at 4:03 pm
4 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says: (1819)
December 20, 2013 at 3:40 pm
So, trading on the goodwill of the Oldco is of no consequence?
============================
Not in itself. It is very common for one company to buy anotherās goodwill, and carry on the trade as before. HMRC have no problem whatsoever with that, so long as the buyer and seller are at arms length. HMRC are only interested where there is Phoenix trading, which is where the people behind the old company acquire its assets through a new company, and carry on as before, leaving the debt behind.
If it is a fact that HMRC consider the current Ibrox set-up to be a Phoenix, (and I know nothing about what HMRC believe) then that can only mean that HMRC believe that Whyte (or even, dare I say it, Sir David Murray) is still running the show at Ibrox.
————
Cheers neep. So Charles Green must have bought the goodwill, which has turned out to be the most valuable asset, judging by how much money has been pumped into his re-named Sevco company on the basis that it is still the same Rangers.
I’d love to have been a fly on the wall at HMRC when they listened to Charlotte Fakes audio clips with Green and Whyte. After the Ticketus ruling, perhaps Oor Craig might now be considering spilling the beans as part of some sort of deal with the authorities? Is that unthinkable?
Ha ha, several folks hinting that SDM is still involved at ibrox, through the Phoenix rumours and CW suddenly becoming a victim.
Sir Walter Scott was correct:
Oh, what a tangled web we weave
When first we practise to deceive!
Danish Pastry says: (1820)
December 20, 2013 at 5:00 pm
Cheers neep. So Charles Green must have bought the goodwill, which has turned out to be the most valuable asset, judging by how much money has been pumped into his re-named Sevco company on the basis that it is still the same Rangers.
Iād love to have been a fly on the wall at HMRC when they listened to Charlotte Fakes audio clips with Green and Whyte. After the Ticketus ruling, perhaps Oor Craig might now be considering spilling the beans as part of some sort of deal with the authorities? Is that unthinkable?
=========
Yes, as far as I recall, Green bought the lot, goodwill, trademarks, you name it. I can’t link to the sale agreement right now, as I’m away from home, but I’m pretty sure he paid a nominal sum for the goodwill.
As regards Craig Whyte and the CF revelations, then if (but only if) the tapes are genuine it seems clear to me that the intention at the outset was to run a Phoenix operation, with Whyte still really in control, and Green acting as his front man. The question is, do we believe that Green really shafted Whyte, as he claims he did, or is that all just a smokescreen for what was really happening? For some strange reason, whenever I see Green’s lips move, the word “lie” flashes in front of my eyes- hard to explain, I really need to get to the optician next week some time. So when Green allegedly claims to have stiffed our Motherwell billionaire in the most blatant fashion, I tend to think, oh really? Now if Whyte is to be believed, he is the real owner of TRFC and all its wordly goods, and may have a few problems with HMRC on the Phoenix issue. But if Green, as Whyte claims, really has swindled Whyte as part of the big switcheroo of the assets into Sevco Scotland, then Green has a lot more than HMRC to worry about.
PS- Please note all the “ifs” and “allegedlys” in this post- I express no view whatsoever on the guilt or innocence of any particular party.
Re DM.CW.CG
IMO this whole charade has all the hallmarks of the EBTs being loans ,written all over it
Take from that what you will .
Just heard a news bulletin that CW allegedly failed to pay wages ,tax and NI to former employees of castle grant .
Can anyone in the SMSM tell me why this man was trumpeted as a billionaire with wealth off the radar.
Can anyone involved at the dead club in the run up to the sale to CW tell me how they thought this was a guy who had the best for the club at heart and made them confident that he could take the club forward .
Can anyone tell me how JI (who is alleged to have the low down on almost everyone ) managed to miss CW profile and previous .
Can anyone tell me what due diligence Ticketus did on CW to ensure he could personally cover their losses if things went mams up .
Before they answer ,they were ALL duped won’t cut it .
Three members of the Rangers board have lodged complaints to the police after violent threats were made against them. http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/9082185/scottish-football-three-rangers-board-members-receive-violent-threats ā¦
I can answer that one, Fergus. He missed it because CW had paid him to erase any trace of him. When he was subsequently asked to look he found there was nothing there. š
Carfins Finest says: (48)
December 20, 2013 at 6:45 pm
Three members of the Rangers board have lodged complaints to the police after violent threats were made against them. http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/9082185/scottish-football-three-rangers-board-members-receive-violent-threats ā¦
=========================================
Maybe these 3 directors should boycott all TRFC games in future in protest…and perhaps for their own safety !
…TRFC can’t even make friends amongst its own – ‘along its journey’…to oblivion, hopefully. š
Those ‘threats’ were on FF apparently. I had looked on RM to see if it was there. This thread title caught my eye though:
I demand to know the name of the MOD who keeps picking on me and making me try and log on to my new E-mail account .
The one my YOUNG daughter set up for me and is no longer in the house to show me what she did
š š š š
Sugar Daddy says: (157)
December 20, 2013 at 3:23 pm
Selling players must be very high if not top of his do list.
Cammy Bell, Lee Wallace, Arnold Peralta are all sellable assets worth what? A combined Ā£1.5m & there may be interest from Eng Championship or abroad for some or all. There are others Templeton, Shiels, Clark, Law, Black, Macleod who could be shifted for nominal fees to other clubs who will have sold eg Dundee United or looking to strengthen eg Hibs, Aberdeen, Iāness. There could be as much as Ā£2million here in total transfer fees.
I don’t think this is especially realistic. Hibs paid Ā£200K for James Collins in the summer. To my recall, no other club in Scotland outside Celtic has paid a significant sum (as a Thistle fan, that is a VERY significant sum) for a player for some time. These players will not be moved on to Scottish clubs for what you describe as a “nominal” fee. More to the point, they would have a sub-zero chance of receiving the same wages and bonuses that are in their Sevco contracts from any Scottish club other than Celtic.
Why is it ,it took the long awaited AGM before the peepil and the MSM finally awoke to the fact that Sevco 2012 was over paying the coaching and playing staff .
Call me a cynic but have they been told in no uncertain terms that there has to be a fire sale or great give away ASAP .
Has the MSMs handlers told them to get the message out to the bears to soften them up for reality hitting .
Alas for the gullible they are a season too late the internet bampots were telling them long ago that it doesn’t take a Ā£7m team wage bill to win the Scottish Third Division .
This then raises the question ,If everyone and their granny knew Sevco 2012 were spending too much to win Div 3 why on earth did the Sevco board allow AMc to spend even further .
If it was that they did not care as they would be off by that time ,then the non execs on the then board need to have a good look at themselves .
If it was to build a substantial points lead in the league to achieve promotion if put into admin then the SFA, SFL have too have a very long hard look at themselves.
IMO Sevco 2012 gaining promotion when experiencing an insolvency event will be the final nail in Scottish Footballs coffin
auchinstarry
I have always thought ,that the focus in all this should be the
DM-TU-CW connection and I have yet to see otherwise
Looking at it the whole deal is quite ludicrous ,three parties in the original deal and all three claiming to have been DUPED
Add to this the almost blanket ban on the MSM from even acknowledging any sort of problem or wrong doing prior to CW coming onto the scene and to me there is only one answer to it all .
I hope HMRC are serious about getting to the bottom of this whole debacle and I also hope there is a sting in the tale for the peepil involved
Although I have not saw too many hornets lately ,could be the weather
fergusslayedtheblues says:
December 20, 2013 at 9:37 pm
auchinstarry
I have always thought ,that the focus in all this should be the
DM-TU-CW connection and I have yet to see otherwise
Looking at it the whole deal is quite ludicrous ,three parties in the original deal and all three claiming to have been DUPED
Add to this the almost blanket ban on the MSM from even acknowledging any sort of problem or wrong doing prior to CW coming onto the scene and to me there is only one answer to it all .
I hope HMRC are serious about getting to the bottom of this whole debacle and I also hope there is a sting in the tale for the peepil involved
Although I have not saw too many hornets lately ,could be the weather
========================================
Hear Hear My Friend! We’re on the same wavelength here.
Somewhere there is a true audit trail leading back to when SDM accepted his Quid to hand over to CW.
Obviously there are a lot of smoke and mirrors along the way, but in this day and age of forensic science it must surely be possible to trace the Family Tree back to SDM?
It will all eventually come out one way or another, that’s for sure!
p.s. I fully predict it will not be a Family Tree of Shame!
More like The Family Tree of The Shameless!!!!!!!!
Fergus….
Looks like we are holding the fort tonight!! Good time for reflecting on the whole Shebang from start to now.
Minty is a shrewd operator. Thinking back to the time prior to the quid being handed over, there was a period of negotiations which went on for weeks. He called it “Due diligence”..Then fired in the “Duped” claim.
Not much thought went into that line. CW however has remained loyal where Minty is concerned. When it all busts the dam we will find the truth.
auchinstarry says: (126)
December 20, 2013 at 10:52 pm
Fergusā¦.
Looks like we are holding the fort tonight!!
_______________________________________
Worry not auchinstarry. We are reading and you are never alone on here.
Nice quarry by the way!!!!
auchinstarry says:
December 20, 2013 at 10:52 pm
Fergusā¦.
Looks like we are holding the fort tonight!! Good time for reflecting on the whole Shebang from start to now.
Minty is a shrewd operator. Thinking back to the time prior to the quid being handed over, there was a period of negotiations which went on for weeks. He called it āDue diligenceā..Then fired in the āDupedā claim.
Not much thought went into that line. CW however has remained loyal where Minty is concerned. When it all busts the dam we will find the truth.
=======================================================
auchinstarry ,
It was strange that SDM took a long time before claiming he was “Duped!” Was it not just after the old RFC went into liquidation, and after Craigy Boy failed to pay the NI and VAT? After the S$Ā£t hit the fan? When people started to question the actual relationship between SDM and Wee Craigy?
I think at that time our famous Knight of the Realm felt vulnerable to public criticism, or more relevantly Bear comments, and came out with his famous “Duped” comment in order to deflect.
It’s also actually quite intriguing that said Knight of the Realm is reclusively hiding away in France away from the Scottish Public gaze!
If I were a true Knight, I would be standing up in my brogues with Dignity and defending my corner, not cowering away in an EBT paid Chateux in France!
Duped My A$%e!
The Sat Nav was switched on when Murray flogged to Whyte for Ā£1. It’s been a hell of a road trip, but like I said, it must be documented somewhere?
I doubt the truth will ever be known, or at least the whole truth.
The will amongst those who should be seeking the truth, and the real culprits, just isn’t there. ‘The authorities’ might one day get close enough to the truth, but deals will be struck to reduce the main players financial losses, or to take prison time out of the equation, on the agreement to accept lesser charges that the establishment (ie the circles David Murray moves in and are all he cares about) might see as misdemeanours rather than crimes.
David Murray might lose some of his personal wealth, but will be shown to be a tad unfortunate, and will remain the demi-god the bears consider him to be. CW might be the only one to do jail time, with Green being vilified by the media, and in the civil courts, but that will just make him sneer before he laughs all the way back to his chateau.
The latest embodiment of Rangers might fail, and fail again, but the villains, in the main, will get away with it all. The Easdale’s, if they are as dodgy as some make out, may wish they’d never got involved in something so public, as their ‘private’ income might come under scrutiny, but I think they are probably the most honest (as they’ve been taken for a ride) of all the players in this rolling farce and might end up as the biggest patsies, and biggest losers too.
David Murray undoubtedly set the ball rolling, with consideration only for himself, but I doubt we will ever learn what his plan was, or what his continued involvement, if any, is.
‘Short term profitability challenges’…….Parliamo Glesga.translation.- We’re f****ed by the way and skint. So if ye could see yer way tae buying some .season books we’ll be brand new by the way n”at ‘ know.. …..Ya dobber.?…B Ferguson
Allyjambo et al,
Still completely intrigued on the position and way forward for the Easdales,
Everyone else on the board of RIFC/TRFC are capable of killing RFC again in order to make a buck, are the Easdales??
So what are the Easdales doing by being there.
I will accept they are making their directors salaries of ??? guess 200k per year? Suppose that is reason enough.
Suppose if Easdales make Ā£200k each per year that is equal to the profit of Mcgills ? Without the need to actually run a business.
Buddy
Allyjambo
That’s an excellent point about the Easdales. It might be pushing the boat out to think of them as upstanding citizens, but they haven’t done much that should generate threats from Sevco’s fans. They pony’ed up to get on the board and took their chances.
Sandy having control of the proxy’s for everyone that was willing to back Stockbridge and co was a clever move. It tied them to the clumpany’s board in the eyes of the fans. Any move they make to try and save Sevco as it is will now be met with scepticism and will further delay the stopping of the vampirism which is draining money at a fatal rate.
The Easdales are no longer a solution for the fans. Ironically they are probably the current club’s best chance, provided they can stomach the necessary cuts.
Their fatal flaw is that they are themselves fans. They have bought into the idea that the spending vs income gap can be met through success and that the climb to that success can be achieved on happy thoughts and fairy dust.
The Easdales are the current board’s patsies. Like CW and MM, before them, they will eventually be sacrificed so that the great Glasgow swindle can be as profitable as possible.
Buddy,
From what I’ve read on here, their income isn’t really in the mega rich category, and running a bus company isn’t comparable with running a football club like TRFC or a learning ground for dealing with money men. Perhaps, as you suggest, they’re there for the directors’ salaries, and perhaps a perceived step up the ladder of respectability? Perhaps they are a bit like McCoist, initially thinking they were doing the right thing as Rangers men, but getting caught up in the money making machine (for a select few) that is RIFC/TRFC, and now afraid to rock the boat for fear of losing what they have. Unlike our favourite manager, they don’t hold legendary status, so are much more vulnerable to the wrath of the mob. Perhaps the rumoured sought after sale of their business is actually a part of their exit strategy, as running a bus company in the West of Scotland isn’t a great business should they become perceived as the men who shut down The Rangers! Or even just the men who failed to get them back to their ‘rightful place’.
buddy_holly says: (113)
December 21, 2013 at 12:08 am
Think of it this way
Who brought Stockbridge to the table ?
Who brought the Easdales to the table ?
Who brought Laxey to the table ?
In fact who brought just about everyone to the table ?
Answer those questions, and you have the answer to the whole setup
Anyway, time to say goodnight to the late shift. Goodnight, late shift š
campsiejoe says: (618)
December 21, 2013 at 12:38 am
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The cephalopod mollusc perhaps?
Those are fairly far reaching arms after all and, can it be claimed they were all suckered in?
Since the cash at Ibrox will run out before the end of the season how does the club finish the season.
1 Not pay the players
2. Sell players (Jan1st-31st)
3 .Issue more shares. Who would buy?
4. Sell the stadium to RIFC (the spivs) and rent it back. Cash injection for a few months.
5. Find someone willing and mad enough to throw away 20,000,000 pounds.
6. Sell lots of pies
7. Advance sale of season tickets to further line the pockets of the spivs using emotional blackmail.
8. Bring out a new orange away strip
9. Go into administration and cop a points deduction or phoenix back into level4 as The The Rangers.
option 4 seems the only one that will keep the team playing till the end of the season.
The spivs have won game set and match.
Caught a snippet yesterday of some chap connected with Coventry on sky news. He was basically saying that they were trying to buy the stadium off the council whcih was built for them. He argued that the “club” could not survive if it was to pay rent, it needed to own it’s stadium! Sevco beware eh !
Seems to me that everything the present Sevco board do is all geared towards delay the latest being needing 120 days for their financial review ,which conveniently takes them to the next ST period .
IMO if the business is in fact losing Ā£38,000 per day they will have racked up losses of Ā£4.5m by the time the bean counters have finished shuffling papers about .
I am no businessman but this makes absolutely no business sense at all .
So in the words of the old song “what’s it all about Alfie ”
That reminds me the old Ragers had a player by that name ALFIE CONN
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Well I thought Sevco would be lucky to reach Christmas,and like a numptie I posted that on here.
Then again…..it’s not Wednesday yet.
Now Santa…………
– Where does the cash come from though? RIFC has none either. It would be a swap for debt and there would have to be a rent-free period agreed at least until they got the season ticket money in.
Who also played for Celtic. I have a Celtic loving friend who named his dog after him
http://www.thefootballlife.co.uk/post/70620598603/the-rangers-agm
On the AGM and why resolution 10 failing is the most important thing of all.
120 days to review the business, then 30 to call an EGM. 19th May will be a hell of a day.
From the Scotsman-
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/majority-of-rangers-support-back-board-somers-1-3241022
Here’s a wee excerpt that made me smile-
“Somers, whose position was made permanent last month after he was given the chairmanship on an interim period, dismissed the fansā red card display at the last home game against Ayr United.
In the 18th and 72nd minutes of the match, the majority of the 45,227 crowd held up cards which had written on them āget out of our clubā and āvote out the current boardā.
āI wasnāt at that particular one but I have had several emails from people who said they were led to believe that the red card display was about apartheid so there seems to be some confusion among the fans as to what they were displaying,ā said Somers.
I think that Somers is not yet culturally acclimatised to all things Rangers. He may be in for a bit of a shock.
Neepheid
If you take your eye off cultural perceptions, you’ll note another part of the same article that is very relevant when considering David Somers. How he came to be appointed and what his likely behaviour and motivations will be going forward.
“Somers, who revealed he had been appointed to the chairmanās post by Stockbridge and Easdale after being recommended by club advisors Daniel Stewart, explained his reticence.”
Who have Danial Stewart had close ties to over the years ?
Twitter update:
rangerscharitytheft ā@corsica1968
Only seen Sun link via twitter but if I were a bampot I’d be looking for links ‘tween King & Wallace. IMG & “no surrender” Johnson?
—
Now, what if the original ticketus funds were from King?
I believe he got most of his original Ā£20m back, (can someone confirm that) was it just sidelined into a Ticketus account?
Would that explain why he appeared continually during admin and why he keeps re-appearing now?
Edit to add:
What if the phoenixing rumours are in regard to Kings return to Ibrox?
neepheid says:
December 21, 2013 at 9:11 am
āI wasnāt at that particular one but I have had several emails from people who said they were led to believe that the red card display was about apartheid so there seems to be some confusion among the fans as to what they were displaying,ā said Somers.
——
… and Mr Somers quoth thus whilst his face was straight?
Now, I realise that South Africa may still have related problems, but a protest against apartheid 20 years after it was abolished? Mr Somers, thy neck is truly brass.
Alfie Conn – in my mind, he was a Celtic player. First post-WWII plaar to play for both cheeks, says Wikipedia. I had him down for Hearts too, but that was apparently his dad. š
rangerscharitytheft ā@corsica1968 Protected Tweets 1h
Only seen Sun link via twitter but if I were a bampot I’d be looking for links ‘tween King & Wallace. IMG & “no surrender” Johnson?
rangerscharitytheft ā@corsica1968 Protected Tweets 12m
@corsica1968 I’d also be looking for links between Stockbridge & King. Don’t be fooled by Somers; he’s a patsy.
Forres Dee ā@ForresDee 4m
@corsica1968 is King the money man behind Ticketus? Was he told if he joined the Sevco board that HMRC would consider sevco as a phoenix?
===========
Looks like I might have guessed that one correctly, I wonder If I’ll get a reply?
Tis the season to be jolly…
So for the festivities, a cocktail…
Ingredients ;
1 141 year old football club, or if not available, a new club with aspirations of old age and questionable history
1 building in dire need of attention and maintenance
1 board but of varying number openly despised and mistrusted by the support
A sprinkling of calls for boycotts and non purchase of merchandise
1 large but diminishing divided support, angry in every direction
1 damp squib AGM, affirming status quo continues
A dash of Jim Traynor – doesn’t do much but adds a touch of comedy
Millions in cash – heat til burnt @ 1 million + p/mnth
1 – 2 completely incompetent, complicit and compromised governing bodies
Several sizeable understatements about shortfall of cash before season end
A plethora of unsustainable contracts for directors, managers and players – spread liberally
Several on-going legal fights re. ownership of deeds, assets, directorships etc.
1 anticipated pejorative outcome of UTT
A few drops of Jack Irvine, though like Angostura, use sparingly as very bitter
1 large ineffective Scottish media, void of journalistic integrity
A wide selection of spivs, Green and Whyte in colour by default
1 fantastical Panto villain and root of all evil, Peter Lawell – he’s behind you !
A sprig of Minty, for decoration
Mix
*Warning – is not good for your mental health and leaves Scottish football with a continuing hangover.
Can anyone remember who currently owns the club’s history? The club can’t have a history, as we’ve been told that is a type of legal entity previously unknown to the laws of Scotland that just floats around (a bit like a butterfly) between various holding companies, landing or taking to the air whenever suits (according to whether it wants to claim rights or avoid obligations). It also follows that the club never owned Ibrox (well at least since 1910 or whenever it was that the “holding company” was incorporated) so, as has been pointed out before, why is everyone worried about which holding company, or parent holding company “has the title deeds”.
What would be an appropriate name for Toby’s cocktail?
A Blue Doom?
A Govan Sour?
An Ogilvie?
A Mint Duped?
A Downfall?
An Orange Omnishambles?
Come on folks, its been a while since all the fish jokes, tis the season to be jolly!
Toby’s cocktail;
Honest Integrity