Podcast Episode 3 – David Low

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Podcast Episode 3 – David Low

davidLowDavid Low

represents a highly significant component of the history of Celtic FC and consequently a highly significant component of how Scottish Football has panned out in the last 20 years.

As Fergus McCann’s Aide-de-Camp, Low was instrumental in helping him formulate and implement the plans which ultimately allowed control of the club to be wrested from the Kelly and White families. Low also helped McCann to rebuild and regenerate Celtic as a modern football club.

His views are unsurprisingly Celtic-centred, and this interview reveals his ambition for the club to ultimately leave Scottish Football behind. That may or may not be at odds with many of our readers, but the stark analysis of the realities facing football in this country may resonate.

Podcast LogoHe provides a window on the pragmatism of the likes of McCann, Celtic and many other clubs in respect of the demise of Rangers. He pours scorn on Dave King’s vision of a cash-rich Rangers future, and provides little comfort for those who seek succour for our failing national sport, believing that Scotland will find it impossible to emerge from the football backwater in an increasingly global industry.

Agree or not with Low’s prognosis, it is difficult to deny his compelling analysis of our place in the football world.

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About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

3,066 Comments so far

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Madbhoy24941Posted on9:04 pm - Apr 15, 2014


incredibleadamspark says:

April 15, 2014 at 8:26 pm

What bothers me is the perception that the Rangers and Celtic rivalry sustains Scottish football and this theory is being put forward by an ever increasing number of Celtic people the closer Rangers get to the SPFL.

—————————————-

That is simply because it is only Celtic people that the media are asking and they are ramping those questions up the closer their arrival comes….. Not difficult to read between the lines so please don’t imply that only Celtic people have this opinion and that they are offering that without being prompted.

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twopandaPosted on9:34 pm - Apr 15, 2014


How goes the War?
Seems they still want a `review`

mrstp can give them one – [120 seconds]

mrstp believes they`ve taken enough money out [till none left]
not seeing any logic of giving them any more
So let them wind up the companies hand over the keys – and clear off
Pretty simple

Some would argue hedges don`t do haircuts [?]
Or mysterons will ask for a `golden goodbye`
Well they can take recourse on concocters of this mess should they wish
Better than an admin/insolvency directors investigation [etc]
So no worries – and they`ll always find more mugs – plenty marks about
And the rest can avail of the marble staircase
Start afresh

They can claim unbroken history of attendance – which is the real deal if only they knew it
– real authenticity rather than the manufactured SFA inventions
So – they need DK / Others to spearhead bears investment
They did raise 5m just before Christmas – and that on top of full attendances spend
So she wouldn`t underestimate them

Stage 2 – launch a 30 year bond or whatever to refurb the stadium
CW will seek redemption and drop any claim – let him script a film
And he can be a [Film] Director at Ibrox

Next they need a glass acoustic box for the chanters
Even paint it blue so no-one can see or hear them
Attract back decent bears / families long given up sharing space with grandstanders
Job done

Stage 3 is the difficult nay impossible bit of asking patience for 3-4 years to rebuild
That won’t work – too sensible by far

But at least they`ll have their club back – and they can return to their nutty ruinous ways – but it`ll be their nutty ruinous ways – seems to be another unbroken history line 😉

And we can get back to our interrupted nigh 30 year domestic spats
[That she always wins] 😉

[mrtwopanda will resume normal service as soon as possible!]

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RyanGosling

RyanGoslingPosted on9:45 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Ah ok thanks, remembered people posting it last night and my tired brain obviously turned “imminent” into “tomorrow”. Thanks for the update to the various people who replied.

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on9:48 pm - Apr 15, 2014


upthehoops says:
April 15, 2014 at 8:53 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

Refereeing decisions aside and not being bothered by people laughing I agree with most of what you’ve written and those things happened during the Murry years. Before that there was a century worth of competition and the fact is there are a large number of Celtic people who aren’t bothered about the things you’ve mentioned and just want to be playing Rangers in the top league. Apparently this benefits Scottish football.

Madbhoy24941 says:
April 15, 2014 at 9:04 pm
___________________________________________________________________________

We all know how the media works and I did say that I thought I was stirring it a bit, resulting in debater like ours. It’s the prerogative of whoever is being interviewed to answer the question however they want. As posters have stated Stokes is entitled to his opinion…. and it was his opinion with no prompting.

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upthehoopsPosted on10:01 pm - Apr 15, 2014


incredibleadamspark says:
April 15, 2014 at 9:48 pm

Refereeing decisions aside and not being bothered by people laughing I agree with most of what you’ve written and those things happened during the Murray years. Before that there was a century worth of competition
==================================
This is what puzzles me though. The modern Celtic, and indeed all other clubs, only know a Rangers that set out to win by any means possible. The media, who keep asking Celtic people about Rangers, enjoyed lavish, easy years during that time. They don’t want competition, they just want a Rangers to be winning everything more often than not. That is the easy money existence for them, because in tandem with Rangers success goes ridiculing and negative reporting on Celtic. Taken together, nothing pleases Scotland’s largest footballing demographic more.

As a Celtic fan I wish the club’s PR people would stop playing into the hands of those who wish nothing other than ill will upon their club, and by extension every other club as well, because all they want is a return to what we had from 1986 to 2011. The really sad thing is they don’t even care if the public purse has to pay for it.

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erniePosted on10:10 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.

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jean7brodie

jean7brodiePosted on10:17 pm - Apr 15, 2014


ernie says:
April 15, 2014 at 10:10 pm

…there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco…
______________________________________

Twas ever thus…

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incredibleadamspark

incredibleadamsparkPosted on10:39 pm - Apr 15, 2014


upthehoops says:
April 15, 2014 at 10:01 pm
_______________________________________________________________________________________

The media may or may not keep asking Celtic people about Rangers, debatable in my opinion, but their answers to the questions are remarkably similar. Even before Minty bought Rangers the auld firm won the majority of trophies between them. When you view events in isolation, as you have done by focusing only 1986-2011, you ignore everything before 1986 and reinforce a perceived sense of persecution…. no offense, like. 😉

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erniePosted on10:44 pm - Apr 15, 2014


jean7brodie says:
April 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm

Twas ever thus…
===============
Indeed but there was 41,000 at the semi including 10,000 (or so) Utd fans which means there were more Sevco fans there on a Monday night league game than a SC semi at home. Impressive stuff, my admiration is as genuine as the headcount.

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BigGavPosted on11:01 pm - Apr 15, 2014


ernie says:
April 15, 2014 at 10:10 pm

Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-

How many were actually there though?
Remember the official figures include all season ticket holders, some of whom may not actually have been at the match.

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ptd1978Posted on11:03 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Having worked in the financial sector for over a decade, specifically in the area of funds administration and oversight, I’m at a total loss as to how King intends to set up this trust. He’ll need to set up some kind of of fund that is easily accessible to the man on the street. There are only a certain number if ways that can be done in the UK or even marketed in the UK. The processes involved in setting these up are not cheap. The guys who run even simple funds will close down finds with values in the billions if they don’t make enough money to be worth the cost of running them. The oversight, reporting and solvency requirements are time consuming and costly. Usually they are spread out over a range of investment vehicles that are grouped together. King seems to be proposing a stand alone find that will be worth chicken feed in financial terms.
Assuming he has found a way to make all this work, the more common and simple funds need to state their aims in their setup documentation. These aims need to be accurate. This is not Companies House rules, this is the FCA and they are serious about this kind of thing. All it would need was a letter from TEFC staring that they would not cooperate with the aims of the fund and the green light would be impossible to get.
That means any fund set up would almost certainly be offshore, or King will need to find 10k plus separate bank accounts to hold these payments separately. If offshore, anyone choosing to give their SB money to King has no comeback if he just walks off with it, while the cost of administering separate bank accounts would be higher than always paying on the day.

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wildwood

wildwoodPosted on11:29 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Can we run a sweep on which paper / website will run the first challenge to king’s concept?

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Danish PastryPosted on11:31 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Interesting if this is genuine, especially on the day when FFP is in the news. How can clubs retain a licence when they run at such a loss in order to win? Car crash economics favoured by SFA and SPFL?

@chairman_forfar: No disrespect to Rangers at all – but there is no enjoyment in a football mismatch. I wish them all the best next season but this is unequal

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y4rmyPosted on11:47 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Apropos of absolutely nothing:

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/advice/practice-notes/aml/money-laundering-warning-signs/

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GoosyGoosyPosted on11:52 pm - Apr 15, 2014


Have I got this right?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
The results of the 120 day review will be released on Friday 25 April.
The ST deadline for withdrawal from bank accounts is Monday 28 April
The final TRFC game is on Sat 3rd May
The first Ramsden Cup game of the new season will be on or around Sat 3 Aug
TRFC will have to go into Administration to cut costs irrespective of the ST uptake
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
If so
The optimal Administration period is one week
Starting Monday 28 April and ending with a CVA on Friday 2May
That way the sporting penalty points deduction is applied to season 2013 – 2014
If Administration is not exited before the new season ends on Sat 3 May the penalty points deduction will apply to season 2014 –2015
……………………
Therefore
The 120 day message from the Spivs could well be
1 TRFC is bust and must go into Administration week commencing Mon 28 April
2 The club has an opportunity to exit Administration on Friday 2 May and avoid a points penalty for next season. If this cannot be achieved the club will have to apply for liquidation
The CVA will require:
Sufficient ST funds and assets to make a CVA dividend acceptable to 75% of Creditors
A major round of redundancies
A major cut in the player budget
Sale of the club shorn of assets
I suspect the £1m loan will be repaid in full before the Administration takes effect
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It looks very much like the end game is approaching fast
If so the main Spivs will have their exit strategy in place.

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on12:55 am - Apr 16, 2014


That looks like a reasonably plausible outcome GG, (where you a spiv in a previous life? 😉 )

The fly in the ointment could be;
“…The CVA will require: Sufficient ST funds and assets to make a CVA dividend acceptable to 75% of Creditors…”

How many daft bears will go along with ‘Smiler’ King’s mental Trust nonsense?
(Still can’t believe it will be set up though.)

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FisianiPosted on5:48 am - Apr 16, 2014


The idea of a Fans Trust is an absolute pipedream. It will never eventuate. Goosy has it right. the spivs have a lay down misere. Buy a season ticket or your club dies. The ultimate spiv emotional blackmail. All it would do would stave off the next blackmail for a few months later given the burn rate.
The timing of admin for a week would mean no sanctions for next season and no sanctions for this season.
The spivs will then get the deeds to Ibrox and Murray Park and the mugs will fork out millions to rent what they previously owned.
This is corporate raiding on a grand scale.

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the taxman cometh

the taxman comethPosted on6:44 am - Apr 16, 2014


remember all that is promised for 25/4 in an update

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upthehoopsPosted on6:49 am - Apr 16, 2014


incredibleadamspark says:
April 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm

When you view events in isolation, as you have done by focusing only 1986-2011, you ignore everything before 1986
==================================
We are discussing the present day media, the overwhelming majority of whom did not report or commentate pre-1986. They have grown up with the notion that Rangers are something they clearly are not in terms of size and financial power, and IMO they long for a return to those days and the easy life it brings them. I speak purely hypothetically, but imagine Dave King gained control at Rangers and they started buying players for £6-8M, and paid them £50K a week. Do you think for a minute the media in general would see fit to ask where the money was coming from? This is why I fail to see why anyone from Celtic thinks a so called ‘strong’ Rangers is good for Scottish football. For them to be really strong, i.e stronger than Celtic, will require them to be funded way beyond their means. It would not be good news for Scottish football, Celtic, or any other club. It would simply be a return to the days of hubris, supremacy, and succulent lamb.

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Barcabhoy

BarcabhoyPosted on6:57 am - Apr 16, 2014


I think the Stokes comments come in for criticism because there are a number of people who still hold strong resentment over the events that lead up to Rangers demise.

Personally i don’t feel cheated by “Rangers” the institution. I was cheated by one man . That this man happened to own Rangers for 2 decades is co-incidental in my view. There have been comments that cheating is inbuilt to the Rangers DNA. I don’t see that.

When i started watching football, Rangers had an odious employment policy. They no longer have that. Thats progress.
They have a large element of their fanbase who still indulge an odious songsheet, but that makes absolutely no difference to their ability to win a football match or a league.
They are hardly alone either in having unacceptable songs amongst the fans reportoire . The difference with Rangers is the scale of those indulging in these songs.

The Rangers that pre dated David Murray were at various times succesful or poor, but they were run prudently and only spent what they earned. I may have believed they got a decision or two from referee’s, but in general when they won anything it was because they deserved to win. Celtic , Aberdeen and Dundee Utd in my time all had better teams and all won enough to show the game wasn’t rigged. Prior to my time, i believe Hibs and Hearts both had seasons where their teams were significantly better than Rangers and won trophies that their on field superiority merited.

If Rangers had gone into administration and liquidation in 1987 , pre Murray, then I believe the aftermath would have been much less hostile than it has been since 2012. The level of feeling I think is for 2 distinct reasons.

Firstly Celtic fans, and fans of other teams who could have won trophies particularly Aberdeen and Hearts, know they were cheated by Murray’s use of illegal tax schemes and his deceitful behaviour in not disclosing full contract details to the football authorities.

Secondly , fans of all clubs were appalled by the SFA and League’s attempt’s to effectively reduce the punishment for years of Murray cheating and financial madness, to virtually a slap on the wrist. They knew that this leniency would never have been available to their club, and they reacted in a way that ensured a more appropriate solution was put in place.

So when there is a hostile reaction to anyone saying they are looking forward to Rangers returning to the SPL, then i suspect that this is partly because the individual responsible for all of their cheating , David Murray, has never been punished . There is an underlying fear that if another cheat gets his hands on Rangers, the SFA will do absolutely nothing about it .

The current hostility lingers because the SFA , through Ogilvie’s leadership have pointedly refused to deal with the root cause of the problem. Had Ogilvie not been so utterly conflicted and also compromised in my view, then the SFA could have lead the way to a more conciliatory environment.

They chose the very convenient route for Ogilvie of blaming it all on Craig Whyte. That didn’t fool anyone who spent more than 5 minutes researching the background, with the result that many Scottish football fans of all clubs still feel cheated.

It was all so avoidable if there was strong leadership at the SFA and SPL who were prepared to rule without fear or favour, instead the motivation was to protect the guilty, just because they were insiders.

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Long Time Lurker

Long Time LurkerPosted on7:19 am - Apr 16, 2014


Barcabhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 6:57 am

Ogilvie’s leadership continues to cause problems. I went to the Rangers v Dundee United game at the weekend in addition to the Aberdeen game (gutted that Aberdeen lost, although well done St Johnstone).

Neutral venue my arse. The SFA appear to be trying to give Rangers every form of assistance possible.

I heard over the weekend, that a person with connections to Old co appeared to be holding on for an honour. Word on the street is that the connections to the Old co are seen as not compatible with the honours system.

I have no way of knowing if there is any legs to this story, if it is true, perhaps we are beginning to see the end of a sad chapter. Also if the story has foundation – then perhaps the support for (S)DM in certain circles is also gone.

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Danish PastryPosted on8:06 am - Apr 16, 2014


Long Time Lurker says:
April 16, 2014 at 7:19 am
5 1 Rate This

I heard over the weekend, that a person with connections to Old co appeared to be holding on for an honour. Word on the street is that the connections to the Old co are seen as not compatible with the honours system.
———–

Stiffing Her Madge and getting an honour from Buchie Pally don’t go well. If it was someone well connected they probably have three letters after their name anyway … EBT, the royal dishonour.

Question is: would fans drop their union jack Y-fronts if a royal snub came to light?

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Paulmac2Posted on8:11 am - Apr 16, 2014


GoosyGoosy says:
April 15, 2014 at 11:52 pm
………………………

Is a 4 day administartion process possible?….is there not minimum time scales for such a process?…in terms of documents issued…meetings for creditors to discuss and agree any CVA…etc etc?

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FinlochPosted on8:24 am - Apr 16, 2014


It ain’t what you do but the way that you do it…

Yesterday BBC Shortbread created a story that some have already commented on here.
It ran in all their main bulletins on telly and radio about an Irish Celtic player answering a pre determined and loaded question.
It wasn’t news.
It was a cynical trick and someone should ask why?
It happened on a massive football day when both sides of Liverpool and the football nation were remembering.
A taudry wee piece of journalism from a publicly funded broadcaster.
If there really was no news up here why didn’t they speak to one of the Liverpool Scots for a shortbread angle – and from memory they could have contacted folk like Houghton, Hansen, Macdonald, Dalglish etc…

Today on their news bulletins some wee lassie on the radio is reading from her script that Rangers “Thrashed” Forfar 3-0 last night.
I’ve heard it repeated verbatim on the 8 am and 9 am news so it is a scripted piece not an anecdotal ad-lib.
So 3-0 is now a thrashing at the BBC when the victors are the blue club.
And Anthony Stokes is now a bona fide BBC spokesperson.

It would be funny if it was not true.

Scottish Football needs an honest BBC.

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Campbellsmoney

CampbellsmoneyPosted on8:35 am - Apr 16, 2014


An administration with a CVA exit takes months to effect.

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Angus1983Posted on8:36 am - Apr 16, 2014


GoosyGoosy says:
April 15, 2014 at 11:52 pm

If Administration is not exited before the new season ends ((sic … starts?)) on Sat 3 May the penalty points deduction will apply to season 2014 –2015 …
——

Surely the new season starts on the date of the first fixtures of 2014-15?

Presumably, though, admin during the close season leads to points deduction next year. So admin would have to be gone into before TRFC’s last game of this season, and exited before their first of next?

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Danish PastryPosted on8:39 am - Apr 16, 2014


Paulmac2 says:
April 16, 2014 at 8:11 am
2 1 Rate This

GoosyGoosy says:
April 15, 2014 at 11:52 pm
………………………

Is a 4 day administartion process possible?….is there not minimum time scales for such a process?…in terms of documents issued…meetings for creditors to discuss and agree any CVA…etc etc?
———–

I’m sure I’ve heard mention of a two-week cooling off period, whatever that is.

Someone pointed this out me yesterday. Got me thinking again. What with house prices going up, ‘Ibrox City’ could one day be a uniquely attractive housing development site, what with its pre-2012 history. A new habitat for well-to-do bears?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/city-till-i-dye-street-where-maine-688535

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essexbeancounterPosted on8:55 am - Apr 16, 2014


Barcabhoy says:

April 16, 2014 at 6:57 am

They are hardly alone either in having unacceptable songs amongst the fans reportoire . The difference with Rangers is the scale of those indulging in these songs.
=====================================================================
Barca…as always, you capture the problem in the proverbial “nutshell”.
This will remind older bloggers of the “minority” singing at passageway 13 of the old Ibrox.

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burghbhoyPosted on8:57 am - Apr 16, 2014


Luton Town (well done on the promotion to any Hatters lurkers!) are an example of how Sevco could, and should have been dealt with by our incompetent authorities.

This is football ombudsman’s report that makes for a good read on the deal done with the new club. Sadly the Ombudsman’s jurisdiction doesn’t extent north of the border!
http://www.theifo.co.uk/adjudications/Lutonfollettfinal.pdf

Like Old Rangers, HMRC put the kibosh on their chances of a CVA, liquidating the club.

“The 2020 consortium had proposals for staggering creditor payments, depending on the extent of any penalties arising from the League’s insolvency policy. In April 2008 the CVA proposals were rejected by creditors, the largest of which was Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC). HMRC had warned that it would vote against any CVA because of the large sums owned by Luton for PAYE, NI and VAT.”

The new club, Luton 2020 Ltd/ie. Sevco up here, were not just let off the hook with a “pay the football creditors” slap on the wrist, but a CVA-type staggered re-payment to ALL creditors was built into the Agreement to transfer the league share to the new club.

“As the League Chairman explained, Luton 2020 was free to pay the creditors in full, in which case there would be no penalty, or to seek membership lower down the football pyramid as a re-formed club. Since neither option was acceptable, Luton 2020 accepted the terms for readmission to League 2 and in accepting those terms they agreed to pay football creditors in full, to pay unsecured non-football creditors 16p in the £”

And the justification…

“The financial condition (payment of 16p in the £) imposed was at the level of the proposed CVA offer –ie if the CVA had been accepted, the 16p would have been implemented. Since the 16p in the £ offer had been made as part of the Luton 2020 consortium’s proposal to buy the club, it could hardly be described as an excessive demand from the League.”

Makes sense to me. Ogilvie/Regan hang your heads.

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ecobhoyPosted on9:02 am - Apr 16, 2014


upthehoops says:
April 16, 2014 at 6:49 am

Do you think for a minute the media in general would see fit to ask where the money was coming from? This is why I fail to see why anyone from Celtic thinks a so called ‘strong’ Rangers is good for Scottish football. For them to be really strong, i.e stronger than Celtic, will require them to be funded way beyond their means.
=====================================
You know, the more I look at the developing chaos at Ibrox – financial and otherwise – then the more I think that Celtic are playing a very diplomatic game.

Smoke signals are coming from Parkhead – often at arms’ length from the senior executives or major shareholders – which ‘welcome’ the return of a strong Rangers to provide ‘competition’ which is really just shorthand for making Celtic more money and this may also spread to other teams.

But everyone and their granny – including every thinking Bear – knows that it might even be a decade before Rangers again becomes a force in Scottish Football and I don’t think it’s being over-pessimistic to question whether it can ever do so.

I can well understand the Bears hanging onto the cargo cult mirage of the Sugar Daddy for the simple reason that without such a ‘Saviour’ the Rangers finances will be terrible for a long, long time with virtually no possibility of buying the players needed and being able to pay them the going rate. Even if they make it to the top League they could just become a bottom end team making-up the numbers which also would create serious financial pressures in terms of ST sales.

If I had anything to do with the management/ownership of Celtic I would be extending the hand of friendship to Rangers and expressing the wish that they will be back in the top flight offering income-generating opportunities. Sometimes it is wiser to stand back with clean hands and let a totally defeated or discredited foe commit harakiri.

This is not necessarily my personal opinion but I can see the ‘political’ and financial sense behind the scenario and it has the added bonus of clipping the wings of those in power at Hampden with an unhealthy interest in Rangers when Celtic are being so friendly and reasonable to an old foe who has been struck-down and torn-apart on the financial battlefields and may even be mortally wounded.

Celtic’s Compassion, whether interpreted as false by some cynics, is still a noble sentiment and should be recognised, at the very least IMO, as being diplomacy in action in the often turbulent waters of West Central Scotland.

Of course many people will have differing views on this and, as always, what will be, will be 😆

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JimBhoyPosted on9:20 am - Apr 16, 2014


@Goosy
The optimal Administration period is one week
Starting Monday 28 April and ending with a CVA on Friday 2May
That way the sporting penalty points deduction is applied to season 2013 – 2014
If Administration is not exited before the new season ends on Sat 3 May the penalty points deduction will apply to season 2014 –2015
==========================================================================
If this were to be the case and I do not know the required longevity of a quickie admin/cva event but shurley then fans auto-renewing on the first Monday could possibly lose their SB money to the old company rangers#2 and may become a creditor getting very little back in return thru the CVA.. Now that would be an all time low, even by spiv standards.

Personally I believe this timeframe is way too tight and any admin would have to affect next season unless of course the SFA conveniently lie low and do nothing if it is sorted before next season starts, which realistically could be the case. “Close season CVA” This could be a good business plan going fwd for football clubs, overspend, win silverware, get promoted, hit cva close season, shed debt, same team next season.

I still say any team who goes into admin thru overspending should NOT be promoted or take the silverware, it is just not right.

Question is though do those who own the club care a jot about football, results, SB sales, fans, points deductions. They own enough of the assets to sit tight knowing the loyal fans will pay out, always come back and require the big hoos and albion car park regardless. Lack of unity of the fans play into the spivs hands in some ways.

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JimBhoyPosted on9:30 am - Apr 16, 2014


@BIGGAV
Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/fans-protest-as-rangers-march-on-159821n.23979153

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ecobhoyPosted on9:34 am - Apr 16, 2014


ptd1978 says:
April 15, 2014 at 11:03 pm

Having worked in the financial sector for over a decade, specifically in the area of funds administration and oversight, I’m at a total loss as to how King intends to set up this trust
====================================================
I agree with everything you have said about the sheer impossibility of setting this up and I actually don’t believe for a minute that DK will do a runner with any ST money or thinks he will actually have to create the trust.

I am convinced that this ‘trust’ is just window-dressing and will never be set-up and DK well knows major events will overtake this little side-show deflection in the ongoing pillage of Rangers.

The thing about DK I find hard to believe is that if he is aware of an imminebt administration plan which would leave him renting the assets that he actually believes he can finance the Rangers football operation.

DK is a lot of things but I don’t think he’s stoopid when it comes to making money and holding onto it and his brush with SARS is just one of the pesky inconveniences he has had to deal with on the journey from Castlemilk.

For me to understand DK – who I believe to a staunch Rangers supporter – then I have to accept that he too has contracted Rangeritis and we know that can be a dangerous affliction. I have also watched a number of very successful businessmen, as they grew older, start turning their ‘hobby’ into a business and it often ends with disastrous financial coinsequenceds.

Perhaps DK is going down this route – but crunch time is approaching fast and I find it hard to fault the reasoning of

GoosyGoosy says:
April 15, 2014 at 11:52 pm

and it’s actually becoming more persuasive with each passing day.

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ecobhoyPosted on9:39 am - Apr 16, 2014


JimBhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:30 am

@BIGGAV
Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-
Interesting – I noted Darkside estimates last night ranging from 15-20K and no one was arguing with that. I reckon the STs have been counted in again and that’s the norm with most teams as we know,

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scottc

scottcPosted on9:40 am - Apr 16, 2014


Finloch says:
April 16, 2014 at 8:24 am

Today on their news bulletins some wee lassie on the radio is reading from her script that Rangers “Thrashed” Forfar 3-0 last night.

It’s true. They thrashed us (in the last quarter of the game). Up until then we had held them. Have to say though that Ian Black did score a super goal for their first.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on9:50 am - Apr 16, 2014


If we can drag ourselves away from the non-stop farce at Ibrox, some more good news for Hearts fans – their dignity is getting its rewards, just as others are reaping the whirlwind

“BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 4m
A meeting of the creditors committee of Ukio Bankas has now approved the sale of the shares held in Hearts.#bbcsportscot”

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wottpiPosted on9:57 am - Apr 16, 2014


JimBhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:30 am
0 0 i
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@BIGGAV
Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/fans-protest-as-rangers-march-on-159821n.23979153
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A small matter but one which the SFA and the SPLF could resolve in one fell swoop.
A simple matter of instructing or creating a rule, for the good of the honesty and integrity of the game, to ensure that all clubs report their crowds in the exact same manner to media outlets.
I would favour the ‘honest’ numbers of how many actually appear on the day of the match as it provides a measure of the interest in the game at large.
However if it is based on season ticket holders plus pay on the days, corporates etc then make sure all memeber clubs do the same thing.

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wottpiPosted on10:02 am - Apr 16, 2014


scottc says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:40 am
4 0 i
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Finloch says:
April 16, 2014 at 8:24 am

Today on their news bulletins some wee lassie on the radio is reading from her script that Rangers “Thrashed” Forfar 3-0 last night.

It’s true. They thrashed us (in the last quarter of the game). Up until then we had held them. Have to say though that Ian Black did score a super goal for their first.
=======================================================================
If 3-0 is a thrashing, what can 3-1 be described as?

While we wait for CEO Wallaces review I can see the opportunity for a TSFM scale on heavy defeats.
Drubbing, skelping, thumped, hammered etc etc

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easyJamboPosted on10:07 am - Apr 16, 2014


scapaflow says: April 16, 2014 at 9:50 am

If we can drag ourselves away from the non-stop farce at Ibrox, some more good news for Hearts fans – their dignity is getting its rewards, just as others are reaping the whirlwind

“BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 4m
A meeting of the creditors committee of Ukio Bankas has now approved the sale of the shares held in Hearts.#bbcsportscot”
===============================
That’s the news we have been waiting for. Foundation of Hearts are holding fire with a confirmation for the moment until they hear formally that they have secured the agreement they were looking for.

You can never be too careful when responding to stories from SMSM hacks, although to be fair to Brian McLaughlin, he has been accurate with his stories about Hearts.

Onwards and downwards, then back up 😀

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Danish PastryPosted on10:11 am - Apr 16, 2014


scapaflow says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:50 am
6 0 Rate This

If we can drag ourselves away from the non-stop farce at Ibrox, some more good news for Hearts fans – their dignity is getting its rewards, just as others are reaping the whirlwind

“BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 4m
A meeting of the creditors committee of Ukio Bankas has now approved the sale of the shares held in Hearts.#bbcsportscot”
——–

Brilliant if it’s not another false dawn. If true, this is the final piece in the jigsaw?

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Danish PastryPosted on10:24 am - Apr 16, 2014


burghbhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 8:57 am
13 0 Rate This

“The 2020 consortium had proposals for staggering creditor payments, depending on the extent of any penalties arising from the League’s insolvency policy. In April 2008 the CVA proposals were rejected by creditors, the largest of which was Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC). HMRC had warned that it would vote against any CVA because of the large sums owned by Luton for PAYE, NI and VAT.”
———

Great post.

The staggered repayment of creditors should have fundamental to any agreement to shimmie Sevco into the leagues under the guise and pretence of ‘same club’.

Because of this they will never live the shame down in this generation and be forever reminded of who they, Sevco, really are.

Wonder if any of those passing judgement on Luton Town had been former directors of the club? Probably not.

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scottc

scottcPosted on10:24 am - Apr 16, 2014


“BBCBMcLauchlin ‏@BBCBMcLauchlin 4m
A meeting of the creditors committee of Ukio Bankas has now approved the sale of the shares held in Hearts.#bbcsportscot”

Fantastic news. My son will be delighted. (He’s Edinburgh born)

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easyJamboPosted on10:25 am - Apr 16, 2014


Danish Pastry says: April 16, 2014 at 10:11 am
Brilliant if it’s not another false dawn. If true, this is the final piece in the jigsaw?
==================================
It’s just about there. We are still in the cooling off period from the UBIG creditors meeting last week. (expires 27th April). UBIG’s involvement was their shareholding of approx. 49.5% (plus a further 15% held by a Vlad linked Swiss company called Quantum Holding SA).

The Ukio agreement was expected to be a formality as they had already agreed the CVA back in November, but hadn’t got round to ratifying the deal at a Creditors Meeting. That meeting is what happened today. Ukio hold 29.9% of the shares, but more importantly, they hold the security over Tynecastle. It will be Ukio who receives the £2.5M from the CVA deal in return for their shares and the Tynecastle security.

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easyJamboPosted on10:28 am - Apr 16, 2014


Sad to hear about the death of Frank Kopel, who was part of the top Dundee Uniited players of the 70s/80s

Jim Spence ‏@bbcjimspence · 19m
Very sad to hear that Dundee United legend Frank Kopel has lost his battle against Alzheimer’s at the age of 65. Requiescat in pace Frank.

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erniePosted on10:29 am - Apr 16, 2014


Re the attendance figures on Tuesday. The point I’m sarcastically making is that it’s another example of the sycophantic pap spoon fed by the SMSM to the masses and sucked up while the rest of us boak at the sickly sweetness of it. Same as 3-0 being a thrashing, same as the story being Rangers lost a semi as opposed to Utd winning it, same as asking every Tom, Dick and Anthony “Do you miss Rangers in the premiership?, same as a newspaper reporting a final as 0-0 (0-1 aet), same as etc etc. If the basic premis of reporting the attendance at a fitba match is just more pap what chance have we got of being treated like adults?
(Well done Saintees, hope the final is a cracker btw)

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BrendaPosted on10:31 am - Apr 16, 2014


Good Morning 😉 just an observation on the report on the ibrox home fans voicing their anger at all and sundry 😀 don’t they realise no-one listens to them 😕 not even Mr Lunny 😉

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Danish PastryPosted on10:35 am - Apr 16, 2014


easyJambo says:
April 16, 2014 at 10:25 am
1 0 Rate This
———–

So no potential major hurdles left?

Must say, the Lithuanians appear to have been pretty magnanimous about this.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on10:47 am - Apr 16, 2014


Danish Pastry says:
April 16, 2014 at 10:35 am

Something is better than nothing, these guys will have done the sums

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ulyanovaPosted on10:49 am - Apr 16, 2014


wottpi says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:57 am
2 0 Rate This

JimBhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:30 am
0 0 i
Rate This

@BIGGAV
Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/fans-protest-as-rangers-march-on-159821n.23979153
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A small matter but one which the SFA and the SPLF could resolve in one fell swoop.
A simple matter of instructing or creating a rule, for the good of the honesty and integrity of the game, to ensure that all clubs report their crowds in the exact same manner to media outlets.
I would favour the ‘honest’ numbers of how many actually appear on the day of the match as it provides a measure of the interest in the game at large.
However if it is based on season ticket holders plus pay on the days, corporates etc then make sure all memeber clubs do the same thing.

———————————————————————————————–
I would imagine that all member clubs do report attendances in this way. Clubs have to pay VAT on ticket sales (no laughing at the back). I presume that rather than pay this when the income is received they are allowed to make payments to HMRC as and when they fulfill their part of the bargain (ie in the accounting period after each match).

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ulyanovaPosted on10:49 am - Apr 16, 2014


wottpi says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:57 am
2 0 Rate This

JimBhoy says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:30 am
0 0 i
Rate This

@BIGGAV
Tin hat on but there is evidently a future for some kind of Sevco, even after the two cup failures they still get a 39,704 crowd tonight and you can’t argue with that.
———-
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/rangers/fans-protest-as-rangers-march-on-159821n.23979153
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A small matter but one which the SFA and the SPLF could resolve in one fell swoop.
A simple matter of instructing or creating a rule, for the good of the honesty and integrity of the game, to ensure that all clubs report their crowds in the exact same manner to media outlets.
I would favour the ‘honest’ numbers of how many actually appear on the day of the match as it provides a measure of the interest in the game at large.
However if it is based on season ticket holders plus pay on the days, corporates etc then make sure all memeber clubs do the same thing.

———————————————————————————————–
I would imagine that all member clubs do report attendances in this way. Clubs have to pay VAT on ticket sales (no laughing at the back). I presume that rather than pay this when the income is received they are allowed to make payments to HMRC as and when they fulfill their part of the bargain (ie in the accounting period after each match).

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Carfins FinestPosted on10:50 am - Apr 16, 2014


Congratulations to HMFC. The dignity shown throughout this sorry episode speaks volumes for the people involved. It shows what can be done with a proper administrator at the helm. I am sure that moving forward HMFC will show that lessons have been learned and old practices will be consigned to the dustbin of the past.
How very different it could all have turned out for TRFC had they acted in a similar dignified manner.

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on10:50 am - Apr 16, 2014


scapaflow says:
April 16, 2014 at 9:50 am

I could hug you (but nothing more) for that news scapa. Obviously not all done and dusted yet, and I won’t be satisfied until every last signature, on every document, is dry but the club is living on with hope that we have a future.

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ptd1978Posted on10:52 am - Apr 16, 2014


Congratulations to Hearts on getting what looks like to final big piece of the puzzle in place.

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easyJamboPosted on10:53 am - Apr 16, 2014


Danish Pastry says: April 16, 2014 at 10:35 am

So no potential major hurdles left?

Must say, the Lithuanians appear to have been pretty magnanimous about this.
========================================
There shouldn’t be any major hurdles left. The sale and purchase agreements will have to prepared and signed off with all the legal niceties sorted out, but I’d expect the club to be able to exit administration sometime in mid May to early June.

It also means that we can start preparing for next season, by offering out of contract players new deals and start selling season tickets, then be able to sign some experience to help the youngsters in the Championship.

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scapaflow

scapaflowPosted on10:55 am - Apr 16, 2014


Allyjambo says:
April 16, 2014 at 10:50 am

And have Andy Chung, and all my Leith relatives kick me? A handshake will suffice :mrgreen:

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torrejohnbhoy(@johnbhoy1958)Posted on11:06 am - Apr 16, 2014


Just seen the Hearts news on twitter.I’m gonna bet them now to win the championship next season.
Obviously still some details to be ironed out but well done to the jambos fans.You put your hard earned in when needed.You also knew that the important thing was survival,not CL football within 2 years.
Looking forward to seeing you back in the top division.

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theoldcoursePosted on11:06 am - Apr 16, 2014


To my mind this is all very simple. DK, for all his faults, is a very shrewd businessman. He knows the writing is on the wall for the current incumbents of Ibrox and this whole trust thing is an attempt to accelerate that process whilst protecting the fans from potential ensuing loss (he is going to need them onside later). He has seen the precedents of 2012 and has judged (probably correctly) that there will be a great push to maintain the continuity of Third Rangers. The only fly I can see in his ointment is ownership of the principal assets, Ibrox and Murray Park. Now, he has said he will punt in £30m. I’m sure TRIFC plc would listen to a favourable offer in that region for a crumbling football stadium and a piece of land on the outskirts of Glasgow which is protected from development by green belt regulations. There are already three very nice courses in that area, don’t think they would grant permission for another.

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ptd1978Posted on11:08 am - Apr 16, 2014


Looking at this idea of a quick administration for TRFC. It seems a bit unlikely. A quick admin is possible to dump debt provided those losing out consent to the process beforehand and there is demonstrably no other debt to pay off.
For TRFC the problem is not getting rid of current debt. In fact RIFC would like to keep that in place I guess. They want to get rid of future debt. All these contracts that mean they are paying out far more than they make. Unfortunately (for them) as soon as they make one person redundant that creates another creditor and the process can then not be a paper debt dump. So a one week admin would not solve any problems.
By this point the chances of an administration that doesn’t reach into next season are vanishingly small. Wallace wants the SB money to get into next season. It’s possible he’s doing this to try and find finance to run out the these ruinous contracts, but more likely he’s playing for time until the claims on Ibrox and MP go away. I imagine King wants to force an admin now, while Whyte’s claim on Ibrox and MP still exists. Such a claim will probably prevent a successful CVA, while admin without it will probably work.
Looks like there’s another Ibrox club buying success with other people’s money. This time it’ll be the club’s own fans and players footing the bill. It’s still not right, but none of them can say they weren’t warned.

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rantinrobinPosted on11:13 am - Apr 16, 2014


Very pleased to hear of great news relating to Hearts FC.No purchase of history required.Predictably much gnashing of teeth and general frothing on twitter from followers of the new Rangers.
Anger set to default.

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burghbhoyPosted on11:13 am - Apr 16, 2014


Congratulations Hearts!

109 years (since their last liquidation) of Club history preserved today. 😉

Seriously, jambos have fronted up to this situation proactively and resourcefully. Dont underestimate the fact that if punters hadnt been digging into their own pockets above and beyond the call of duty this day likely would not have come.

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PhilMacGiollaBhainPosted on11:22 am - Apr 16, 2014


Delighted for HMFC.
My bestie is a Jambo and through it all he and his Maroon buddies haven’t sought to blame anyone else for their predicament.

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JimBhoyPosted on11:25 am - Apr 16, 2014


Well done the Jambos, Kudos to the dignified manner you went about your business.. Onwards and upwards..

Sorry to hear about Frank Kopel I remember his name stick out from the old pannini sticker cards I had when I was a boy..

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joburgt1mPosted on11:39 am - Apr 16, 2014


Brilliant news about Hearts, congrats to all concerned.

I am one of the guys who always thought of Hearts as the “Edinburgh Rangers” but no more of that crap thanks to Ally and Easy’s education of my tiny mind over the last year or so.
I’m also with torrejohnbhoy on sticking a wee wager on the Jambos to win the championship next year.

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SmugasPosted on11:46 am - Apr 16, 2014


easyJambo says:
April 16, 2014 at 10:07 am

Onwards and downwards, then back up

=======================
Quick as you can then! 😉

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SmugasPosted on12:03 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Pardon my ignorance. Per the paragraphs re Luton below. What league were Luton in before admin/liquidation? And in this nonsense premier championship era, is League 2 what us old timers still call Div 4 – i.e. the lowest Div in ‘proper’ football (no disrespect to any GM Vauxhall Astra combatants intended).

as I understand it, they (Luton 2020) had three options.

a/ pay all creditors in full in which case, crack on, as you were – essentially the McCann model.
b/ be liquidated, offer to pay nothing since you’re a brand new entity and apply as a new company requesting a new club entity/entry in a lower division (ie. presumably below the old Div4) with, presumably, a request for a name change from newofftheshelf FC to Luton Town FC to follow. I’m not quite sure what happens to the old Luton Town membership in this scenario. It gets torn up? A new one is issued? What differentiates the new one from the old one? The name?
c/ be liquidated, form a new company and ask to be admitted to League 2 and to do so by being awarded the old membership that is now going spare. So technically, new company asking to hold certificate for old club, but only to be awarded on condition that they pay 16p in the pound to non footballing creditors (they get 100%) per their initial CVA offering? I can see sense in this option since it offers creditors some reward they wouldn’t otherwise get as long as Div 2 is the lowest division, and it is clear that this happens regardless of which division you drop out of.

Luton passages from above

“As the League Chairman explained, Luton 2020 was free to pay the creditors in full, in which case there would be no penalty, or to seek membership lower down the football pyramid as a re-formed club. Since neither option was acceptable, Luton 2020 accepted the terms for readmission to League 2 and in accepting those terms they agreed to pay football creditors in full, to pay unsecured non-football creditors 16p in the £”

And the justification…

“The financial condition (payment of 16p in the £) imposed was at the level of the proposed CVA offer –ie if the CVA had been accepted, the 16p would have been implemented. Since the 16p in the £ offer had been made as part of the Luton 2020 consortium’s proposal to buy the club, it could hardly be described as an excessive demand from the League.”

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Resin_lab_dogPosted on12:05 pm - Apr 16, 2014


joburgt1m says:
April 16, 2014 at 11:39 am

6

0

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Brilliant news about Hearts, congrats to all concerned.

I am one of the guys who always thought of Hearts as the “Edinburgh Rangers” but no more of that crap thanks to Ally and Easy’s education of my tiny mind over the last year or so.
I’m also with torrejohnbhoy on sticking a wee wager on the Jambos to win the championship next year.
___________________________________________________

If I was a disaffected TRFC fan stuck between the devil (King) on the one hand, and the deep blue sea (The board) on the other, I think I could do far worse than stumping up for a season ticket: To Tynecastle.

Dignity you say? TRFC talk the talk. HMFC walk the walk.

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pau1mart1nPosted on1:07 pm - Apr 16, 2014


joburgt1m says:
I’m also with torrejohnbhoy on sticking a wee wager on the Jambos to win the championship next year.

Andy Davis is back in training for his comeback just in case of that event.

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Alan PricePosted on1:16 pm - Apr 16, 2014


theoldcourse says:
April 16, 2014 at 11:06 am

…there will be a great push to maintain the continuity of Third Rangers. The only fly I can see in his ointment is ownership of the principal assets, Ibrox and Murray Park.

Now King has said he will punt in £30m….
____________________________________

He did, but he has been back and forth from South Africa so often I’ve lost count, each time claiming he would, or should that be might, invest in the club subject to conditions that have no chance of being accepted by those who own the shares.

As a result he hasn’t put a penny of his own supposed wealth off the radar, to coin a phrase, into ‘The’ Rangers.

He has, however, managed to persuade some gullible Teddy Bear fans to give him their season ticket money.

I don’t see a happy ending to the stand off between King and the board.

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Bawsman

BawsmanPosted on1:41 pm - Apr 16, 2014


How much money is anyone allowed to take out of South Africa?

Does your previous Tax/financial/criminal history affect the amount you can move?

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Allyjambo

AllyjamboPosted on2:05 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Bawsman says:
April 16, 2014 at 1:41 pm

From something I read yesterday, not only will he find taking money out of SA very difficult, he has, in fact, agreed to transfer his overseas wealth back to SA as part of his ‘stay out of jail’ agreement. He might have that £30m lying in some offshore bank where few questions are asked, but should he ‘buy’ TRFC, I’d imagine SARS would soon be knocking on his door with a few questions of their own.

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joburgt1mPosted on2:11 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Bawsman says:
April 16, 2014 at 1:41 pm

How much money is anyone allowed to take out of South Africa?

https://www.resbank.co.za/RegulationAndSupervision/FinancialSurveillanceAndExchangeControl/FAQs/Pages/Individuals.aspx

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Danish PastryPosted on2:17 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Richard Gordon has just congratulated Hearts on twitter. You don’t know whether laugh or cry at some of the feedback he’s getting.

@RichardGordon48

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PW1874Posted on2:21 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Do you think it’s crossed the minds of the previously loyal customer base of The Rangers Football Club Limited that a liquidation of the Limited Company would have little impact on the shareholders of Rangers International Football Club PLC?

After all, it’s probably occurred to the asset rich PLC shareholders they might not actually need a debt-laden, loss-making, employee-heavy, limited liability subsidiary in their quest to make a return on their investment.

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61patrickPosted on2:31 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Easyjambo
When I 1st came on to this site & RTC, I had a set view of HMFC & its fans you Allyjambo and others helped me see that was my problem 😐
Today im delighted for you, be proud of your efforts and dignity sir

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easyJamboPosted on2:38 pm - Apr 16, 2014


Danish Pastry says: April 16, 2014 at 2:17 pm

Richard Gordon has just congratulated Hearts on twitter. You don’t know whether laugh or cry at some of the feedback he’s getting.
=====================================
I saw that and one of those on his case was @Bryce9a.

Some people will never get it until there is a full and unreserved apology from all of Scottish Football, HMRC, the UK Banking industry, the Scottish Government, Police Scotland, Green, Whyte, people of other colours, the SMSM, everyone in the world named Murray, anyone of Irish catholic origin, all admitting that it was their fault for the demise of Rangers. 😉

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