“Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only saw a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to European success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.”
Thanks Danish Pastry for giving Big Pink the opportunity to nudge me (over a coffee I paid for – so how’s that for redistribution of income? 🙂 ) to blog again on the issue of redistribution of UEFA money whilst he was advocating gate sharing as an alternative.
I recall the redistribution debate being discussed on the first TSFM podcast Episode 1-01 of 9th Feb 2014 which can be found here:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/scottish-football-monitor/id817766886?mt=2
Listening to it again (I used “View in I Tunes”) I heard many of the recent comments on the previous blog being made in that podcast at or around:
9.58: The interdependent nature of the business of football. Why it is different from normal business.
10.50: Celtic/Rangers leaving the Scottish League making it immediately more competitive.
11.30: Clubs as a community resource (like museums or libraries not run for profit, providing a community service and staying solvent).
12.48: People have to let go of the notions that they have held about the nature of football and recognise it is a totally interdependent business.
13.55: Changing the Champions League format to European and Regional Leagues and raising the standard of all, not dropping standards of one to bring about competiveness.
25.50: A rethink at the top level with NEW thinking about redistribution of income using Champions League money.
27.50: The human dilemma.
So rather than repeat what was said originally and very well developed in the comments on the Michael Grant article on the previous blog, I thought I would look at what I think is the greatest barrier to change which was the last item above – the human dilemma. *
Modern football reminds me of a description of a scene from hell where a visitor looks into one room and sees an emaciated group around a table on which is set a large pot full of stew. They cannot eat because their arms have been set straight at the elbow and elongated so that they cannot get a spoon in their mouths. It is a miserable place. Then the visitor goes upstairs and enters a similar room with occupants similarly handicapped, but where everyone is well fed and contented. “How can this be?” he asks his guide. “Well downstairs all their energies are spent in the nigh impossible task of feeding their insatiable hunger, whilst up here they simply feed each other.”
The analogy is bent a little but not broken in the sense that there are fat and emaciated folk in the football version of the lower room but it is not a healthy place as the fat can themselves become emaciated over time (see Liverpool and even Man Utd) but, generally speaking, self-interest or rather what is perceived as self-interest, holds sway.
Human nature that causes the human dilemma is well reflected in normal business where dog eats dog, then eats the food of the dog it ate if it comes out top dog. Football however cannot exist on a dog eat dog basis because it is interdependent as a business. Dog eating dog is bad for business because over a period of time even the top dog will die of starvation.
Now without abusing the dog metaphor any further and risk attracting dog’s abuse, why is it that something which should be as self-evident as looking after each other is good for business, be such a hard sell?
I said in the podcast around 12.48 that folk need to let go of the notions they have clung on to about football, but why is that so difficult?
Perhaps the resistance to that change can be found, at least in the case of Celtic, who at present are asked in the current debate to make a sacrifice for others, either in the form of gate sharing or giving up some Champion Leagues winnings (if/when they qualify) can be found in the genesis of the club and the memory of that genesis passed from generation to generation.
Everyone knows that the original purpose that Brother Walfrid had for Celtic was to feed the poor in the East End of Glasgow and many of that poor had come from Ireland to be strangers in a strange land.
As a Calton man born in the Gallowgate, as was my grandfather (my dad was found under a cabbage in Well St) I’ve never really identified much with the Irish context of Celtic’s history, although I do recognise its importance to many supporters with Irish family ties, but that dimension adds a further layer to the human dilemma.
Think of it, you form a football club to raise money to feed yourself because you live in an environment where welcome mats are in short supply. That money raised is YOUR money. Your life depends on it as does your family’s as well as your close neighbour (usually in the same close). How prepared are you to share what income you have had to raise yourself with others who you believe have been less than charitable towards you?
Add that folk memory to the human selfish trait of wanting what you spend on football spent on meeting your own desire, which is to make you happy watching an entertaining and successful team on the park and you get an idea of where the resistance to a more equitable sharing comes from and how deep it goes.
I use Celtic here because they are my club and part of my life experience and I have no idea if other clubs experience that added layer of resistance to sharing, if indeed they are in position to share. But if we are ever to be able to introduce gate sharing or what I see as the easier alternative of redistribution of UEFA geld because in not coming direct from supporters pockets it has less of the Celtic folk memory layer to overcome, then those who will be asked to make a sacrifice have to be given the confidence that the aim is not to impoverish them (and the Celtic community memory of poverty and fighting it is as strong today in the form of The Celtic Foundation, The Kano Foundation and the numerous charity events organised by supporters and prominent blogs) but to enrich their neighbours, but doing so in such a way that they enrich themselves. That is the challenge.
In the upper room in the earlier hellish description, the occupiers present the ultimate example of charity in that in feeding each other they feed themselves.
- PS the podcast covers other issues that some 18 months later might still be of interest.
Not a name I was familiar with but a bit of a player by all accounts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34104927
wottpi says:
Member: (723 comments)
August 30, 2015 at 11:31 pm
‘…. does anyone else think there is a need for s blog or podcast with someone in the refereeing fraternity!!’
____________
I’ll show my ignorance here, and own up to the fact that I haven’t a scooby about the relationship between referees and the SFA!
I have a vague notion that they sort of stand independent of formal ‘line management’ control of the SFA, in such a way that each referee is sort of a freelance, hired on an ad hoc basis and paid his fee in much the same way as you and I would hire a plumber or other ‘expert’ to do a job for us.
That is, we look around for accredited folk, and assume that if they are accredited in their ‘profession’ they meet certain standards.
It would certainly be interesting to me to hear a straightforward account of how referees are recruited ( and by whom, exactly) and how they are trained, and to whom they are responsible, and the mechanisms in place to supervise them and so on.
scapaflow says:
Member: (1412 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 12:05 am
‘..The Man in the White Suit is probably a better metaphor for how I fear all our efforts will end ‘
________
On the contrary, it is the ‘continuity Rangers’ myth that will be shown to be no more indestructible than Alec Guiness’s new fabric!
Our Football Authorities simply cannot continue to defend the indefensible.
TRFC/ Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland/Rangers 2012 or whatever is, as a matter of absolute fact, NOT the Rangers of Willie Woodburn, or George Young, or John Greig or Bill Struth or Walter no-surname, or even of CW!
That Rangers died, just as Renton, Third Lanark, Gretna, Airdrieonians , etc etc died.
Our Football Authorities ( and our own particular clubs!) KNOW that that is the case.
We will eventually get them to acknowledge it publicly, and force them- by simply insisting on sporting truth- to set all records straight.
So, ‘Courage,mon brave!’
Sporting Integrity will win through.
John Clark says:
Member: (1150 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 12:42 am
wottpi says:
Member: (723 comments)
August 30, 2015 at 11:31 pm
———-
There was some criticism across the the board yesterday — from pundits and even a very candid manager interview (Mark Warburton) about some bizarre decisions. Apparently it was a 4th official (Crawford something) who made the sending-off call in yesterday’s televised game. Regarding another match, I heard one of the radio pundits suggest that a particular ref had been been promoted too soon. Maybe that guy has the right surname?
But isn’t getting a ref in to critique refs a bit like appointing the police to comment on the police? If a ref or former ref, then one from another (non-Scottish) association might be an idea.
The issue of revealing any club allegiances should be back on the table, just as the taboo subject of secret society membership.
The little hoo-ha about the refereeing this weekend made me look at the highlights of the games involved and to be honest I think Neilson has a point about the Paterson sending off, but it did not cost Hearts the match. The referee should have reduced Hearts to 10 men in the first half and given a penalty (I am struggling to see how he could possibly have concluded that it was not to be honest).
But think about how good Scottish ref’s are ? When was the last time any of us could say that we have seen a match and thought the ref had a good game ! I certainly can’t remember that far back but it should even itself out over the season (it won’t, but there are many other reasons for that with the main one being fan influence as can be seen by the amount of decisions that the better supported sides get in there favour compared to the sides with smaller crowds).
Castofthousands
Re Collyer Bristow, the late great Paul McConville was across this years ago. Google BDO Collyer Bristow to get started.
I’ve always thought the debits and credits to the CB client account, if they ever were exposed to the light of day, would explain much of the mystery around the original fakeover.
Also worth googling is Gary Withey Crystal Palace – the guy had form when it came to football clubs!
From today’s @ScotNational (image should enlarge by clicking on it)
John Clark says:
Member: (1150 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 1:15 am
That Rangers died, just as Renton, Third Lanark, Gretna, Airdrieonians , etc etc died.
Our Football Authorities ( and our own particular clubs!) KNOW that that is the case.
We will eventually get them to acknowledge it publicly, and force them- by simply insisting on sporting truth- to set all records straight.
________________
It has been over three years since any loose ends regarding the status of “TRFC”, within the Scottish FA, within the SPL (now SPFL) were tied up in the Five Way Agreement.
Whether you believe the outcome effected continuity, or the opposite, the chances of anything changing in that regard, or being revisited, or contradicted, are staggeringly small – in my opinion.
Given it would appear most opposing fans are contented that the club didnt continue/retain its honours, and Rangers supporters equally contented the opposite way, I think there’s an argument there that the status quo suits all parties! 🙂
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1388 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:51 am
I’ve said it before here without provoking much a response, the current blackout on terrestrial TV of all Scotland games is appalling. The complete lack of any noise about it any of the press or tv has baffled me. That the fans aren’t that interested either says it all – resigned disinterest to it, just as they are in much of the SFA/SPFL matters.
As for Sportscene itself. I had the dubious pleasure of watching it with some English friends up on a visit who are used to the polished turd that is Match of the day. It rapidly became painful viewing as they giggled and guffawed at how poor it was. Don’t get me wrong the amount of money spent on Lineker and MOD is abhorrent, but surely we can do better with Sportscene, it’s just embarrassing!
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1388 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 7:35 am
But isn’t getting a ref in to critique refs a bit like appointing the police to comment on the police? If a ref or former ref, then one from another (non-Scottish) association might be an idea.
===================================
SFA refs in the SPFL are critiqued by their own every week. Look at who’s on the SFA list of Referee Observers. Doesn’t make for objectivity. From page 10 on the PDF:
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/SFAHandbook/06Referee.pdf
My own view is that what makes referees stand out (rather than be background figures) is the importance placed on (dread phrase) game management, rather than equally applying the laws of the game to both teams.
Have been visiting this site and RTC since early 2012. I don’t post as I cannot add to the excellent investigating of facts done here. However re the £250,000 fine imposed by LNS there was an article on page 63 of London Times Friday Aug 7,2015 which says this is now going to a tribunal. the end of the article states”Hampden sources last night confirmed the club has selected a nominee to argue its case from a list of qualified candidates drawn up by the SFA to adjudicate on such matters.
“The SPFL has also chosen its own rep and now the two unnamed individuals will choose an independent chairman and provide arguments for their respective sides. The tribunal, while under the auspices of the SFA, is not bound nor answerable to the ruling body.And while there is no timescale for an outcome to be arrived at both parties have accepted that the verdict will be binding”
Sorry I can’t give you a link but I imagine one of the tech savvy folk here can find it online.
Right back to lurking. Carry on 🙂
I have no problem defending referees for making individual decisions.
My main issue is the inconsistency that appears to occur not only from game to game but within games.
Paterson’s challenge (when he was actually playing the ball forward and then made contact with said ball with McKinnon going in with one foot raised) that resulted sending off at Hamilton was IMHO no worse than earlier challenges in the game.
There is no doubt that later in the season we will see players going ‘head to head’ ala Lyle and Kiernan and no-one will be booked or red carded.
(Frankly if it were me I would have the rules changed to allow a player who has been approached touched by a mouthy opponent off the ball in an aggressive manner free reign to kick sh!t out of said opponent, but hey that’s me javascript:grin(‘:twisted:’) )
Fans are always left at a loss as to why one tackle or incident results in a red card while others go unpunished. The lack of explanation, other than an appeal being upheld or dismissed, is all we ever get.
(As for Neilson as opposed to training with 10 men he needs to get the defending at set pieces sorted, Hearts have been shocking in that department so far this season and that was what caused the Hamilton winner)
wottpi says:
Member: (724 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 11:55 am
=======================
wottpi, leading the defence of Bilel Moshni?
Going back to the Rangers v Celtic cup game last season,to me it was very evident a referee can influence a game in more ways than one without causing controversy ,there was no need for a big score for one team and to save any trouble a lot of people accepted the end result quite happily and moved on but a lesson was there in how a game can be controlled by match officials.
“My own view is that what makes referees stand out (rather than be background figures) is the importance placed on (dread phrase) game management, rather than equally applying the laws of the game to both teams.”
Only too true Jingso. Its long past time that the Men in Black should be allowed to explain their decisions. They are going to get it wrong, and the nature of the game means that bad decisions can have severe impacts, so let them explain themselves. No doubt it will get a bit raucous to begin with, but tsunlight really is the best disinfectant
The referee should have reduced Hearts to 10 men in the first half and given a penalty (I am struggling to see how he could possibly have concluded that it was not to be honest).
Berrty really? initial contact is outside box. and red card?
But pretty much agree with rest of post.
While we up in arms about referees & penalty incidents (and this is not based on this weekends highlighted issues) can we also apportion some of the blame to the so called expert pundits, of which the MOD commentators are probably the worst. But the behaviour of these guys cannot make the refs job any easier.
It is the consensus amongst pundits not to condemn a player for going down easily, but to come away with guff such as “he did get the slightest of touches, so was perfectly entitled to go down”. There are of course exceptions where a blatant dive is quite rightly called out.
Entitled to go down – no player should “go down” and “earn” a penalty, he should be required to be “taken down” and hence “awarded” a penalty. If a player “goes down” then it is a dive in my book, this is a contact sport after all.
Nail on head Tayred. The reason free kicks are awarded is when a player fouled, not when he is ‘touched’.
The Andy Walker school of thought is to my mind a cheaters charter. If a player goes down because he deliberately falls over – whether he has been touched or not and feels entitled to go down over said touch – my gut instinct is that he is cheating.
On the other hand, if in the ref’s opinion, a defender has deliberately tried to impede a player, even if he hasn’t made contact, then subject to the advantage rule, I think that should be a foul. Why should a perpetrator escape punishment for foul play just because he is no good at it and missed?
Pretty simple really. Deliberate foul play is punished, as is seeking to gain an advantage for a Gordon Brown-like ‘light touch’.
blu says:
August 31, 2015 at 12:45 pm
Well indeed, if my rules were on the statue book.
They would be applied fairly across the board 🙂
Any ‘have a go hero’ may think twice if, instead of their intention to provoke a fellow professional into an action that would see an opponent sent off, they may receive a smack in the mouth without penalty.
Lets face it, yesterday’s incident at the QoS v T’Rangers game saw Kiernan having to take 8 paces to get involved in an incident that had nothing to do with him with the sole aim of provoking Lyle. While it all happening in a few seconds that to me has an element pre-meditation. The slight forward motion of the head by Lyle in a fraction of a second was nothing more than a natural reaction to the intimidation encountered.
The mechanics of the incident was that Lyle was going backwards then stationary as Kiernan walked towards him in a forward motion and placed his head on Lyle’s. Why that is not seen in the same fashion as Lyle’s mild downward nod from a stationary position I have no idea.
Would happily see reds handed out for threatening and intimidating behaviour that involves physical contact. And that might have lead to Lyle being sent off for the first coming together with Tavernier.
I worked up some numbers on potential referee bias a while back. I’m not saying referees are biased but they must of course have those same bias’ we are all subject to. The attached table shows the proportion of red cards levied per team by referees 2000 to 2010.
Over that period red cards have been issued at a rate of one every five games (454 in 2280 games). Therefore any particular tie runs a 20% chance of suffering a red card. Or 0.2 per single game.
The table has referees ranged against teams. The propensity to issue a red card is given by the figure coinciding a referee and a team. So if K. Clark is giving Rangers 0.2 red cards then you know that’s about average. If you’re Dunfermline and see J.Underhill has issued 0.4 red cards to your team on average over a ten year period then you might be wondering what it is you have done to upset him. 0.4 is double the anticipated average of 0.2.
Tutorial over.
W. Collum does indeed show a slight statistical bias against Hearts with a ‘score’ of 0.3 red cards but he shows a similar bias against Falkirk.
Visually though there is a fair spread of variability. 0.3 isn’t an extraordinary score and wouldn’t in itself attract a great deal of attention.
While on the subject of Refereeing I have just listened to an utterly appalling conversation on Sportsound. It seems that whatever ‘book’ was always to be thrown at Neil Lennon whenever he questioned a Refereeing decision no longer exists. Even when a manager says he knew beforehand the Ref would send one of his players off that is just him being professional. They had the cheek to say all they want is consistency. Hypocrisy knows no bounds.
“Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
Former #Rangers CEO Charles Green to be interviewed by Police Scotland tomorrow. Likely he’ll face charges relating to his time at club”
Acording to Martin Williams TRFC have had a huge input of £9 Million that will ramp up the race to get listed on ISDX to allow for squillions of pounds to be raised from another share flotation. The £9 million is from Season Ticket money and is not even enough to keep the wolf from the door far less fund any flotation. When was season ticket money ever seen as anything other than cash to help the day to day running of the club.Eh?
scapaflow says:
Member: (1413 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 8:10 pm
‘..“Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
Former #Rangers CEO Charles Green to be interviewed by Police Scotland tomorrow..’
______
Good spot, scapa.
What a nice piece of news.
If anything comes of it, we might get some useful info in open court about the 5WA agreement!
Carfins Finest says:
August 31, 2015 at 8:18 pm
The verbal gymnastics continue in that Martin Williams piece of nonsense prose – “has provided fresh impetus to the club’s plc’s efforts” – the what’s what??!?!
The rest of it is not even worthy of comment.
Is there an investigation, though, into CG’s ‘time at the club’ as CMcL puts it? Surely the ongoing investigation is into the purchase of some of the assets from D&P, is it not? I can see how charges might arise from the Sevco 5088/Sevco Scotland switcheroo, but can’t see how he could be charged with fleecing the gullible. Did he do anything in his time at the helm that could be classed as illegal? I know the fans feel he allowed Ashley in to shaft them (their views not mine) but I’m not sure anything he did in the role was actually illegal? Better memories might correct me, please.
Obviously the Christmas video should have been illegal!!!
Has Chris McL just been fed a nice bit of RRM Lamb to rehabilitate him back through the doors down Govan way? 🙂
As discussed, hard to see, at this time, if any of Green’s actions were illegal.
If he is going down then surely a few synchronized dawn raids should be on the cards!!
Either way its just more fun. Remember how the con mans every word was lapped up my more than a few.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEjOvG-yHDA
wottpi says:
Member: (726 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:08 pm ‘
‘… Remember how the .. mans every word was lapped up my more than a few.’
________
Maybe because it’s coming up to September 3rd , but that wee clip you posted made me think ‘Nuremberg. and ‘rally’. Strange how the demagogues know how to work their audiences.
If it’s lamb, Wottpi, he’s been set up, I think. The Bear sites were so glad he was banned for badmouthing the club and a lot were raging when TRFC* ‘relented’. He’ll now get hammered again for finding negative stories about ‘their club’ (or their old club, or their holding company, or whatever). Even though CG is now on the ‘baddie’ list, that won’t assuage them as only TRFC* fans are allowed to hate TRFC* figures, not a Rangers-hater!
nawlite says:
Member: (178 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 8:37 pm
Obviously the Christmas video should have been illegal!!!
—————
The distrabution of tea without a licence 😀
ok i will get my coat
John Clark says:
Member: (1151 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 8:30 pm (Edit)
scapaflow says:
Member: (1413 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 8:10 pm
‘..“Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug
Former #Rangers CEO Charles Green to be interviewed by Police Scotland tomorrow..’
______
Good spot, scapa.
What a nice piece of news.
If anything comes of it, we might get some useful info in open court about the 5WA agreement!
=============================
John C.
The SFA and SPL rode rough shod over sporting integrity to do a deal with this guy who acted like a spiv and might be a crook.
Between that, the LNS sham and negligence at least on Res 12 if the SFA are not corrupt they sure as hell are incompetent.
When oh when is something going to be done to stop the rot?
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (524 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:47 pm
Between that, the LNS sham and negligence at least on Res 12 if the SFA are not corrupt they sure as hell are incompetent.
When oh when is something going to be done to stop the rot?
————————————————————–
Somewhat dismayed to see this comment from you Auldheid. I believe you are
closer to Res12 than many other posters on the forum and this comment seems
to imply a brick wall has been encountered and that the resolution is floundering.
Say it aint so.
John Clark says:
Member: (1151 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:18 pm
wottpi says:
Member: (726 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:08 pm
In the words of Jethro Tull (Locomotive Breath)
Old Charlie stole the handle and
The train it won’t stop going
No way to slow down.
nawlite says:
Member: (179 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:20 pm
I think you will find they are ecstatic that Green is going to get it. In the same way that they were when Whyte was charged.
It is rather ironic that these are the two men they lauded as new Messiah’s. Men who saved Rangers etc.
[]
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (524 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:47 pm
‘….When oh when is something going to be done to stop the rot?’
_____________
The process is , as they say, ongoing!
I don’t doubt for a minute that there are be-suited and be-brogued gentlemen on the 6th Floor who view developments with highly personal alarm.
They can trust nobody to keep his mouth shut, especially people like the semi-drunken blowhard bums we have seen and heard on the CF recordings.
There is, of course, nothing to suggest that our Football Authorities are guilty of any criminal act.Nothing at all.
But I suspect that some among them are, or will be, embarrassed at the way they cuddled up to chancers, and sold their personal integrity and the integrity of the Sport which they were charged with the duty of protecting and defending by doing shabby deals.
Who knows what may come out, in open court, of the conversations some people are having with the polis?
Frightened men who don’t trust one another can be blabbermouths ( or so I understand from a lifetime of watching police procedurals!)
With the Accounts due sep 1st is the CG interviewed a good day to bury bad news
Homunculus says:
Member: (230 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm
‘…With regards burying bad news, do you really think Police Scotland are co-ordinating interviewing Green (if it happens) to assist in burying bad news.’
______
Cluster One will doubtless tell you what he thinks.
I would say only that I was helluva surprised that the polis investigated any aspect.
And I still wonder what exactly it was that gave them official cause to investigate, and sufficient confidence subsequently to charge people?
Did I miss something? Could Lord Hodge have had his suspicions, and referred matters to the Minister for Justice etc?
Or did individual creditors, or burked would-be bidders for the assets, lay a complaint?
We’ll probably never know.
But, in the present case, full marks to the polis.
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (524 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:47 pm
“When oh when is something going to be done to stop the rot?”
————————
Landslides give little warning.
The grounds is saturated day after day and just when its ready to let go, something happens to provide the impetus. It could be something quite trivial but once that momentum starts and there is enough saturation to service it then it will just slide away and carry off culpable and innocent alike. No doubt the scoundrels will have made contingency plans to be absent from the scene of chaos.
Don’t let the power go to your head when it happens.
Didn’t Charles Green represent RFC during admin, assisting the administrators? He’s probably a signatory for both Ibrox clubs on the 5WA.
John Clark says:
Member: (1153 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 11:20 pm
Police Scotland (the individual force areas before them) conduct their enquiries and take instruction from Crown Office. This enquiry has been going on for quite some time. The only real question with regards Green was always whether he would be a witness or one of the accused.
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/107835-in-full-crown-office-statement-on-criminal-probe-into-rangers/
A statement from the Crown Office said:
“The Crown Office has today instructed Strathclyde Police to conduct a criminal investigation into the acquisition of Rangers Football Club in May 2011 and the subsequent financial management of the Club.
“The investigation into alleged criminality follows a preliminary police examination of information passed to them in February this year by the Club administrators.
“The Procurator Fiscal for the West of Scotland will now work with Strathclyde Police to fully investigate the acquisition and financial management of Rangers Football Club and any related reports of alleged criminality during that process.”
gunnerb says:
Member: (50 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:00 pm (Edit)
Auldheid says:
Blog Writer: (524 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:47 pm
Between that, the LNS sham and negligence at least on Res 12 if the SFA are not corrupt they sure as hell are incompetent.
When oh when is something going to be done to stop the rot?
————————————————————–
Somewhat dismayed to see this comment from you Auldheid. I believe you are
closer to Res12 than many other posters on the forum and this comment seems
to imply a brick wall has been encountered and that the resolution is floundering.
Say it aint so.
=================
It aint so gunnerb. 🙂
The S in FA stands for stonewalling but if they have nothing to stonewall about why not put Res12 to bed?
The alternative is that on the basis of the evidence available it is impossible to be voted down and UEFA are asked to investigate.
The words “Short” and “curlies” comes to mind.
Homunculus says:
Member: (231 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 11:32 pm
‘…A statement from the Crown Office said:..’
_________
That’s what I missed! Thank you.
And did the Administrators bring this upon themselves? How weird!
( But where the hell was I when I missed that statement?) 😳
And,from ‘into the acquisition of Rangers Football Club in May 2011’ it is not just the alleged switcheroo, but the sale by SDM to CW that was being investigated.
I must have seen that,else I wouldn’t have raised the query, some time ago now, about what would happen if that original sale was found to be invalid, and that SDM was still the legal owner of the assets?
Or if SDM (God forbid!) was all the time party to an invalid sale to get rid of the debt, in the hopes of being a beneficiary of the carefully pre-arranged plan for a phoenix club to be placed back in the SPL……….
There’s a great book in there somewhere.Pure fiction?
Oh, that it be not fiction, and that the tumbrils will trundle their way to the guillotine, and that heads will roll!
After fair trial, and all of that. 😀
John Clark says:
Member: (1155 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 11:56 pm
The investigation must follow any reasonable lines of enquiry, and if those enquiries provide evidence of further offences then those must also be investigated.
Just for talkings sake, the initial purchase and financial mismanagement may lead to suspicions of contrived insolvency. The investigation into the subsequent administation process may lead to suspicions of corruption by a Court appointed insolvency practitioner, conspiracy (dirty word in Scotland) to defraud the creditors. Sale of assets for far less than their true market value. Links between parties may come to light, and how they planned to dispose of debt whilst keeping a business afloat.
There’s all sorts of reasonable lines of enquiry to be looked at here. Involving all sorts of people, including professional enablers. Like lawyers who may have helped someone get a huge wedge of cash out of Ticketus just before the business went into administration, with a guaranteed liquidation at the end of it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34109840
The headline states “Charles Green likely to face charges over his time as Rangers chief executive”
The body of the article makes no statement that justifies the headline and refers more than once to Craig Whyte. That alleged relationship predates the formation of the current Rangers FC of which CG was CE and implies that “You are Sevco” (from Charlotte) is the basis.
Is the headline purely to distract the TRFC fans following their deluded self-satisfaction at the BBC’s perceived climb down over the C McL. farce? Or will details of the “Sevco Triangle” finally be revealed?
Homunculus says:
Member: (232 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:08 am
‘….Just for talkings sake..’
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And, just for talking’s sake, I’m with you all the way!
A fabulous potential story, far removed from a mere ‘sports’ story.
What a shame we have no investigative journalists either with the will to do justice to it or with an editor prepared to let her/him get right into it..
Let’s face it many on here will love to see the MBB and Big Hands go down. If SDM was in the mix then even better.
After all it could be a new world record for the number of people duped on multiple occasions by the same scam and at the same time the world record for the number of convicted felons holding the top jobs in the eternal entity!!
Let’s face it many on here will love to see the MBB and Big Hands go down. If SDM was in the mix then even better.
After all it could be a new world record for the number of people duped on multiple occasions by the same scam and at the same time the world record for the number of convicted felons holding the top jobs in the eternal entity!!
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Has Keith Jackson been reminded of the Motherwell born billionaire’s off the radar wealth recently? Like an elephant (in the room?), Scottish Football Monitor does not forget.
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (516 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:34 am
‘Let’s face it many on here will love to see the MBB and Big Hands go down. If SDM was in the mix then even better.’
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Let me reword that for you: if the darling of the Scottish Football world, cossetted and protected by banks using tax-payers’ money in unstinting loans to their darling in furtherance of what appeared to be his profligate spending of his vast personal wealth, but was in reality something else,were to be found guilty of any kind of criminality,I would be amazed!
But far more pleased than if the smaller fry, the untitled little spongers and leeches were similarly found guilty.
Homunculus says:
Member: (230 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm
‘…With regards burying bad news, do you really think Police Scotland are co-ordinating interviewing Green (if it happens) to assist in burying bad news.’
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Not at all. Just good timing
Was raging with an article by Adrian Durham on Mail Online there. A complete rant against Celtic. But what got me going was ‘Rangers were demoted to the 3rd Division’.
So I tried to post this as a comment:
Go back and read reports of what actually happened in 2012. The new club were voted INTO the bottom tier despite the best efforts of the football authorities to shoehorn them into the top level. There was no demotion involved. Poorly researched article.
I made 6 attempts to post this but kept getting a message ‘Oops something went wrong there, come back later’ How very convenient.
So far my boycott against reading football articles has been against The Record, The Herald and the Evening Times. Any more of this and The Mail will be getting my treatment.
“Berrty really? initial contact is outside box. and red card?
But pretty much agree with rest of post.”
I’ll give you that the initial contact may have been outside the box (difficult to tell from the camera angle) but definite red card, clean through, only keeper to beat – straight red
Cluster One says:
Member: (275 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:38 pm
With the Accounts due sep 1st is the CG interviewed a good day to bury bad news
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The accounts for the year to 30 June 2015 aren’t due to be submitted to Companies House until 31 December 2015. From the CH website-
John Clark says:
Member: (1157 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:26 am
Which interestingly opens the conversation with regards threats and intimidation back up.
Apologies if this was covered before. Keef’s surprisingly accurate this morning isn’t he?
I also note that apparently you don’t jet in to be grilled 😈
Whats worse – the fact that down in Englandshire they willingly spend 36 million on a 19 year old or the hyperventilated feeding frenzy that accompanies this kind of obscenity from the press? Seems to have little to do with value or worth, its all about who has the biggest wad. Society today 🙁
I can’t wait for it all to blow up down south – and surely it will, one day. 😈
Homunculus says:
Member: (232 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:18 pm
nawlite says:
Member: (179 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 9:20 pm
I think you will find they are ecstatic that Green is going to get it. In the same way that they were when Whyte was charged.
It is rather ironic that these are the two men they lauded as new Messiah’s. Men who saved Rangers etc.
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We all know that they didn’t ‘save’ Rangers, but it could be argued that between them they ensured football continued at Ibrox! Perhaps if Whyte hadn’t bought Rangers from Murray another ‘saviour’ might have been found, but after so many years of searching, and the proverbial fan about to be hit, there was no one else on the horizon. It is also debateable whether there was actually any realistic alternative to Green as all other claimed bids, other than Bill Miller, were quite fanciful.
In my opinion, Rangers, under Murray and made worse by Whyte, were in such a bad way that only a very rich man, looking for a troubled life, or an out and out spiv, looking to make easy money, would get involved.
TRFC fans better watch what they wish for, Green, and or Whyte, might just tell the court (if called) how they came up with the ‘same club’ idea as a way of keeping the supporters onside! Regardless of that, it may well aid either the prosecution or the defence to establish the truth surrounding the ‘same club’, one way or the other, to make some point of law.
If I were a supporter of TRFC I’d much prefer it if everyone accused pled guilty rather than have the forensic examination of what went on made public in court!
Excellent point Ally:
It was indeed Green who went from fighting against liquidation to re-interpreting the concept… Will those so angry with Green acknowledge that they were perhaps duped into embracing the same club lie? Doubtful really, but you never know.
Wonder how the 5-Way signatories are feeling about it all? It was all ok’d by the high heid yins, with the then SFA president lame-ducking it all, allegedly.
Guys (and Gals),
Could I just inject a note of caution with regard to comment on the various issues potentially the subject of future court cases?
We don’t want to put ourselves or SFM in any kind of jeopardy and even more importantly we don’t want to prejudice any such court action.
Please take care…..loose lips sink ships! 😉
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
I’d come at it a slightly different way AJ.
Regardless of the where’s and therefore’s of OC/NC, liquidation, demotion and whatever else (and that’s not to belittle their importance or my own intrigue in hearing their versions incidentally), fundamentally Whyte before and Green thereafter were RFC* at least in trading guise and in so doing contracts that they entered into were made in the name of RFC*. This is regardless of whether, with the benefit of time, said contracts are shown to be absolute turkeys!
As long as they have been a bit clever with the beneficial interest bit. I think the support are about to find out that both operators have a degree of experience in that particular field.
DP,
I’m fairly sure you’ll find that Mr D’s side letters, one of which was so graciously provided by Charlotte will cover the issue of future damage limitation. If you (RFC newco) agree not to stab us in the back, we’ll agree likewise. Question is, who’s we? And why the need to do it via side letter I wonder?
jimbo says:
Member: (86 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:45 am
‘…Was raging with an article by Adrian Durham on Mail Online there. A complete rant against Celtic. But what got me going was ‘Rangers were demoted to the 3rd Division”
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I think his piece was updated at 10.47 a.m: no mention of ‘demotion’, but a mention of ‘liquidation’ and ‘oblivion’. Your message must have got through!
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1188 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:14 am
If I were a supporter of TRFC I’d much prefer it if everyone accused pled guilty rather than have the forensic examination of what went on made public in court!
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Green doesn’t seem like the type to quietly plead guilty (he hasn’t been charged yet, by the way!), but who knows what incentives he might be offered to do so.
One thing is certain- if there are any buried bodies, Green knows exactly where they are. That might make some people very nervous indeed.
The main risk to the current regime at Ibrox is that a full trial might reveal the detail surrounding the Sevco Scotland/Sevco5088 switcheroo, in a way that casts doubt on Sevco5088’s title to the properties. That would be fatal to any attempt to raise more capital via a share issue, so King better hurry up and get a few million in for more shares before any court cases begin.
Changing of online articles reminds me of Orwell and Wonston Smith it would not surprise me if we see that CG has gone from double plus good to double plus ungood. Mr Warburton might go the same way as the nights shorten and scottish dreichness soaks into the bones over the winter midweeks
English Professional football is no longer a sport in any reasonable sense. Scottish football could be given straight governance and it is a great pity that it is not. Is anyone else developing a soft spot for Eibar – a sort of la Liga Clyde if I may be so bold?
Smugas says:
Member: (928 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:18 am
I’m fairly sure you’ll find that Mr D’s side letters, one of which was so graciously provided by Charlotte will cover the issue of future damage limitation. If you (RFC newco) agree not to stab us in the back, we’ll agree likewise. Question is, who’s we? And why the need to do it via side letter I wonder?
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You’ve gone a little cryptic on me there smu. Are you referring to this Mr D?
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1387 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:08 am
‘..Wonder how the 5-Way signatories are feeling about it all? It was all ok’d by the high heid yins, with the then SFA president lame-ducking it all, allegedly.’
Smugas says:
Member: (928 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:18 am
‘ Question is, who’s we? And why the need to do it via side letter I wonder?’
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I think it’s the 5WA that let’s the majority of our clubs off the worst of the hooks of complicity. They might have been faced by a ‘fait accompli’ -told point blank by a few ‘high heid yins’ that a deal had been signed sealed and delivered, and could not be undone, with certain individuals acting well beyond their personal authority, but protected by the top high heid yin, lurking potently in the background.
And faced with a legally binding agreement, there was not much the likes of Turnbull Hutton or others who shared his anger, could do that wouldn’t have involved a major lawsuit.
It will all come out in the wash, someday, even if only when some of the individuals involved have made their dishonourable way to their graves, and when much younger folk than I are reading the lying obituaries that the next generation of SMSM hacks produce.
John Clark says:
Member: (1159 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:20 am
jimbo says:
Member: (86 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:45 am
‘…Was raging with an article by Adrian Durham on Mail Online there. A complete rant against Celtic. But what got me going was ‘Rangers were demoted to the 3rd Division”
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I think his piece was updated at 10.47 a.m: no mention of ‘demotion’, but a mention of ‘liquidation’ and ‘oblivion’. Your message must have got through!
Or else he read my comments on here! 😀
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1188 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:14 am
It’s worth bearing in mind that if either Whyte or Green (or both) is an accused person in the case then they cannot actually be called to give evidence in that case. They can choose to if they so wish, but they cannot be compelled to do so.
Even if they are not the accused then it is unlikely that they would be required to give evidence which would incriminate themself. They could be called and asked questions about limited issues, but nothing which would actually be evidence against them personally. A Judge would monitor that situation very closely.
You cannot actually be in the witness box, giving evidence under oath, whilst at the same time cautioned that you do not have to answer questions.
This is why I have been wondering for some time if Green was going to be used as a witness against the others. Albeit not a terribly reliable witness and open to attack by their defence with regards his own actions.
It can all get very convoluted.
STV confirming that CG has been detained in custody.
Former Rangers chief executive Charles Green has been detained in custody by police in Scotland.
The 62-year-old was spotted at Livingston Police Station early on Tuesday after reportedly arriving back in the country on Monday.
It is understood he was interviewed by officers from Police Scotland on Tuesday morning.
A spokeswoman for Police Scotland confirmed a 62-year-old man had been detained.
easyJambo says:
Member: (744 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 1:08 pm
STV confirming that CG has been detained in custody.
Former Rangers chief executive Charles Green has been detained in custody by police in Scotland.
The 62-year-old was spotted at Livingston Police Station early on Tuesday after reportedly arriving back in the country on Monday.
It is understood he was interviewed by officers from Police Scotland on Tuesday morning.
A spokeswoman for Police Scotland confirmed a 62-year-old man had been detained.
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Wow! Could we be heading towards a new world record?
The STV story has been updated with the following:
Former Rangers co-administrator David Whitehouse, 50, has also been detained by police. He worked with Duff & Phelps when Rangers went into administration.
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1327848-ex-rangers-chief-executive-charles-green-detained-in-police-custody/
More charges?
Homunculus says:
Member: (234 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:39 pm
In truth, as the news of CG’s arrest hadn’t been announced yet, I was writing on an either/or basis. There is also the possibility that an accused would want certain facts to be brought out by the defence without him actually taking the stand. Quite easily done by the use of an ‘expert witness’.
The point of my post being that the supporters who see this latest stage of the story as being a positive, might well find facts revealed that would be better, for them, to remain undisclosed. Though it might all end up a damp squib, with nothing being revealed not already well known, or the case collapsing etc, I cannot see it ending in any way that is beneficial to either football club. It might, though, and this would be by far the best result, mean the creditors pot is swelled by those culpable being forced to compensate for their misdemeanours.
I don’t think KJ, and others of his ilk, are aware of the possible dire consequences for their club!
Has anyone else noticed the press are being a bit more truthful regarding RFC’s liquidation. Generally stating ‘Rangers’ entered liquidation rather than the myth that it was a separate ‘company’?
Perhaps it’s no more than a desire to avoid misinformation when reporting on what is now a court case story rather than a football one.
Phil saying Whyte will present himself for questioning. This is fun.
Danish Pastry says:
Blog Writer: (1389 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:41 am
Smugas says:
Member: (928 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 11:18 am
I’m fairly sure you’ll find that Mr D’s side letters, one of which was so graciously provided by Charlotte will cover the issue of future damage limitation. If you (RFC newco) agree not to stab us in the back, we’ll agree likewise. Question is, who’s we? And why the need to do it via side letter I wonder?
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You’ve gone a little cryptic on me there smu. Are you referring to this Mr D?
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Feck me DP!! Public health warning required!
I nearly spewed on my keyboard when I scrolled down to that image.
That kind of thing can cause serious trauma down here in Norfolk.
I’ve done well avoiding Jim White’s hypefest so far and then you spring that one on me, just as I was contemplating a quick break for lunch too. 😆