“Anyone read Michael Grant’s article in The Times? Only saw a pull-quote but the headline is about not everyone cheering for Celtic to European success since the financial windfall will put them too far ahead of the other clubs. It’s that old UEFA distribution thingy. Auldheid had a sensible alternative a while back.”
Thanks Danish Pastry for giving Big Pink the opportunity to nudge me (over a coffee I paid for – so how’s that for redistribution of income? 🙂 ) to blog again on the issue of redistribution of UEFA money whilst he was advocating gate sharing as an alternative.
I recall the redistribution debate being discussed on the first TSFM podcast Episode 1-01 of 9th Feb 2014 which can be found here:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/scottish-football-monitor/id817766886?mt=2
Listening to it again (I used “View in I Tunes”) I heard many of the recent comments on the previous blog being made in that podcast at or around:
9.58: The interdependent nature of the business of football. Why it is different from normal business.
10.50: Celtic/Rangers leaving the Scottish League making it immediately more competitive.
11.30: Clubs as a community resource (like museums or libraries not run for profit, providing a community service and staying solvent).
12.48: People have to let go of the notions that they have held about the nature of football and recognise it is a totally interdependent business.
13.55: Changing the Champions League format to European and Regional Leagues and raising the standard of all, not dropping standards of one to bring about competiveness.
25.50: A rethink at the top level with NEW thinking about redistribution of income using Champions League money.
27.50: The human dilemma.
So rather than repeat what was said originally and very well developed in the comments on the Michael Grant article on the previous blog, I thought I would look at what I think is the greatest barrier to change which was the last item above – the human dilemma. *
Modern football reminds me of a description of a scene from hell where a visitor looks into one room and sees an emaciated group around a table on which is set a large pot full of stew. They cannot eat because their arms have been set straight at the elbow and elongated so that they cannot get a spoon in their mouths. It is a miserable place. Then the visitor goes upstairs and enters a similar room with occupants similarly handicapped, but where everyone is well fed and contented. “How can this be?” he asks his guide. “Well downstairs all their energies are spent in the nigh impossible task of feeding their insatiable hunger, whilst up here they simply feed each other.”
The analogy is bent a little but not broken in the sense that there are fat and emaciated folk in the football version of the lower room but it is not a healthy place as the fat can themselves become emaciated over time (see Liverpool and even Man Utd) but, generally speaking, self-interest or rather what is perceived as self-interest, holds sway.
Human nature that causes the human dilemma is well reflected in normal business where dog eats dog, then eats the food of the dog it ate if it comes out top dog. Football however cannot exist on a dog eat dog basis because it is interdependent as a business. Dog eating dog is bad for business because over a period of time even the top dog will die of starvation.
Now without abusing the dog metaphor any further and risk attracting dog’s abuse, why is it that something which should be as self-evident as looking after each other is good for business, be such a hard sell?
I said in the podcast around 12.48 that folk need to let go of the notions they have clung on to about football, but why is that so difficult?
Perhaps the resistance to that change can be found, at least in the case of Celtic, who at present are asked in the current debate to make a sacrifice for others, either in the form of gate sharing or giving up some Champion Leagues winnings (if/when they qualify) can be found in the genesis of the club and the memory of that genesis passed from generation to generation.
Everyone knows that the original purpose that Brother Walfrid had for Celtic was to feed the poor in the East End of Glasgow and many of that poor had come from Ireland to be strangers in a strange land.
As a Calton man born in the Gallowgate, as was my grandfather (my dad was found under a cabbage in Well St) I’ve never really identified much with the Irish context of Celtic’s history, although I do recognise its importance to many supporters with Irish family ties, but that dimension adds a further layer to the human dilemma.
Think of it, you form a football club to raise money to feed yourself because you live in an environment where welcome mats are in short supply. That money raised is YOUR money. Your life depends on it as does your family’s as well as your close neighbour (usually in the same close). How prepared are you to share what income you have had to raise yourself with others who you believe have been less than charitable towards you?
Add that folk memory to the human selfish trait of wanting what you spend on football spent on meeting your own desire, which is to make you happy watching an entertaining and successful team on the park and you get an idea of where the resistance to a more equitable sharing comes from and how deep it goes.
I use Celtic here because they are my club and part of my life experience and I have no idea if other clubs experience that added layer of resistance to sharing, if indeed they are in position to share. But if we are ever to be able to introduce gate sharing or what I see as the easier alternative of redistribution of UEFA geld because in not coming direct from supporters pockets it has less of the Celtic folk memory layer to overcome, then those who will be asked to make a sacrifice have to be given the confidence that the aim is not to impoverish them (and the Celtic community memory of poverty and fighting it is as strong today in the form of The Celtic Foundation, The Kano Foundation and the numerous charity events organised by supporters and prominent blogs) but to enrich their neighbours, but doing so in such a way that they enrich themselves. That is the challenge.
In the upper room in the earlier hellish description, the occupiers present the ultimate example of charity in that in feeding each other they feed themselves.
- PS the podcast covers other issues that some 18 months later might still be of interest.
AllyJambo:
“Former Rangers co-administrator David Whitehouse, 50, has also been detained by police. He worked with Duff & Phelps when Rangers went into administration.”
TBH I’d prefer to be in that interview room rather than Chuck’s, I think that’s where the meat lies…
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (517 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 2:01 pm
And that put a wee smile on my face, just before I set out to work! Cheers, Cat 😀
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (517 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 2:01 pm
———-
Sorry about that. I’m sure his mother loves him, though 😉
Transfer Deadline Breaking News
Charles Green in last minute talks with Barlinnie FC
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1192 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 1:34 pm
Homunculus says:
Member: (234 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:39 pm
In truth, as the news of CG’s arrest hadn’t been announced yet, I was writing on an either/or basis. There is also the possibility that an accused would want certain facts to be brought out by the defence without him actually taking the stand. Quite easily done by the use of an ‘expert witness’.
———————————————————-
I’m not really sure where you are going with that, what type of “expert witness” are you thinking about.
The only really important thing about an “expert witness” in the true sense of the phrase is that they are allowed to give opinion evidence, where it relates to their field of expertise. Other than that any witness can only really give evidence of fact and it has to be something that they themselves can speak to. Expert witnesses can’t just give evidence on behalf of another person simply because it would be inconvenient for that person to go into the witness box. So if they are unable to speak to a set of facts then they are unable to, whether they are considered an expert or not.
In essence someone would have to speak to what happened, produce any material they can speak to, whatever. The expert then gives their opinion on what it means. If the same person is able to do both that’s great, however that isn’t always the case.
Sorry if I’m coming across as obtuse, but I really can’t see where you are going with that one.
wottpi says:
Member: (728 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 3:02 pm
Transfer Deadline Breaking News
Charles Green in last minute talks with Barlinnie FC
=============================
Sky Sources are stating that a double swoop is planned with David Whitehouse forming the second part of the governer’s bid to get HMP back to its rightful place at the top of the incarceration league table.
The Cat NR1 says:
September 1, 2015 at 3:24 pm
Okay I’ll bite ala Off the Ball’s team for the week.
Sponsor Scott’s Porridge Oats
Management Team Jurgen Clinksmann & Pep Guardiola
Players
Darren (Behind) Barr
Tommy (awfae sore) Ring
Paulo Workshop
Eugene (I’m the) Dadi
Saw the Adrian Durham thing about Celtic’s last 3 years of “fake” success.
Wonder what he thinks of Rangers’ 15 or so years of success via tax cheating, spending other people’s money, stiffing creditors and breaking SFA contract rules, and where is his article about it?
Apologies Danish,
Yes THAT Mr D!
To elaborate Charlotte produced a side letter produced as an addendum to the draft 5WA. I think, from hazy memory, it was RFC Newco agreeing that they wouldn’t go after the SPFL for damages, should due cause be found??? I remember writing at the time that it was naïve to think there wouldn’t be a similar agreement the other way, that the SPFL would not seek recourse beyond the LNS fine. Why else otherwise would an experienced liquidation game player like Green agree to a £250,000 fine against an oldco that was sod all to do with him! And if the clause was indeed a one way affair, duly approved and acknowledged by all relevant parties, why not just put it in the 5WA. Why the side letter?
(Apologies to all – hazy memories make for vague fact recollection – someone in possession of the original disclosure please feel free to interject for the sake of accuracy)
New ads are trying to sell me a Lexus RC F (Royal Blue too 🙂 )
I wish ….
Seriously though folks, interaction with the ads is very important for our income stream through advertising – which we hope will be a major one in future. It would help if we investigated them once in a while by giving a little click or three 🙂
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (126 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:12 pm (Edit)
Saw the Adrian Durham thing about Celtic’s last 3 years of “fake” success.
Wonder what he thinks of Rangers’ 15 or so years of success via tax cheating, spending other people’s money, stiffing creditors and breaking SFA contract rules, and where is his article about it?
____________________________________________
Do you (we) really care? I mean Adrian Humdrum ffs
Homunculus says:
Member: (235 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 3:20 pmAllyjambo says:
Member: (1192 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 1:34 pm
Homunculus says:
Member: (234 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:39 pm
In truth, as the news of CG’s arrest hadn’t been announced yet, I was writing on an either/or basis. There is also the possibility that an accused would want certain facts to be brought out by the defence without him actually taking the stand. Quite easily done by the use of an ‘expert witness’.
———————————————————-
I’m not really sure where you are going with that, what type of “expert witness” are you thinking about.
The only really important thing about an “expert witness” in the true sense of the phrase is that they are allowed to give opinion evidence, where it relates to their field of expertise. Other than that any witness can only really give evidence of fact and it has to be something that they themselves can speak to. Expert witnesses can’t just give evidence on behalf of another person simply because it would be inconvenient for that person to go into the witness box. So if they are unable to speak to a set of facts then they are unable to, whether they are considered an expert or not.
In essence someone would have to speak to what happened, produce any material they can speak to, whatever. The expert then gives their opinion on what it means. If the same person is able to do both that’s great, however that isn’t always the case.
Sorry if I’m coming across as obtuse, but I really can’t see where you are going with that one.
_______________
Wasn’t actually going anywhere with that one, and definitely not into a discussion of the depth you seem to think. I was merely pointing out that the accused’s advocate can get his point across without calling his client into the witness box. My reference to an ‘expert witness’ was slightly tongue in cheek, though my thoughts on an expert might be someone well versed in company law or insolvency. The point of my post was not to introduce a discussion of what can, or can’t happen in a court of law, but to bring out the fact that there may be points raised, by the defence or prosecution, that some might prefer to remain outwith the public domain. My limited knowledge of court proceedings, gained mainly from courtroom dramas 🙄 , leads me to believe that, despite the judges and lawyers being well versed in the laws in question, every relevent point must be brought out and recorded and, of course, be explained for the benefit of a jury when one is present.
For the sake of introducing some drama to the disussion, I might envisage a scene from the movie (Craigie Boy holds the rights) where my learned council for the prosecution, in his efforts to show how lies and deception were used to facilitate the purchase of Rangers, calls insolvency expert, Mr Neil Patey, to the stand…
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34109840
Police detain former chief executive Charles Green in Rangers probe
Red hot news.
I have seen no reference whatsoever in the media to the fact that Whitehouse was previously arrested and charged last November- http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/rangers-takeover-arrests-four-to-face-court-1-3606194
Presumably today’s events relate to a completely separate investigation.
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (519 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:56 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34109840
Police detain former chief executive Charles Green in Rangers probe
Red hot news.
===================
And it looks like the “You are Sevco” (5088) rather than anything TRFC Ltd or RIFC PLC related.
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (126 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:12 pm
Saw the Adrian Durham thing about Celtic’s last 3 years of “fake” success.
Wonder what he thinks of Rangers’ 15 or so years of success via tax cheating, spending other people’s money, stiffing creditors and breaking SFA contract rules, and where is his article about it?
_____________
Alternatively he could write an article explaining how Rangers aren’t guilty any of those things, how everything they did was dignified and above board. If he starts now he might manage to come up with the first sentence before he retires, or is made redundant!
http://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/kronikorer/bank/article21345213.ab
Someone gets how I feel about transfer deadline day.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (399 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (126 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:12 pm (Edit)
Saw the Adrian Durham thing about Celtic’s last 3 years of “fake” success.
Wonder what he thinks of Rangers’ 15 or so years of success via tax cheating, spending other people’s money, stiffing creditors and breaking SFA contract rules, and where is his article about it?
____________________________________________
Do you (we) really care? I mean Adrian Humdrum ffs
=========================
Spot on BP.
The bloke’s a total idiot, and he has previous down our way (seems like everyone has from my posts today, but that isn’t really the case), when in his guise as a Peterborough United fan he launched some seriously pathetic attacks on NCFC several years back that displayed a serious insecurity. A very sad individual indeed, and best ignored.
I think James Forrest was correct to point out the factual inaccuracies in his diatribe to counterbalance the misinformation, but there is zero point in making any attempt at discussion.
Bp, is the space for Name on the form to be filled with your forum name or your actual name?
BP,
You want to see what they’re trying to sell me…and she aint no Lexus!!!
I realise we are limited in what we can say right now about the arrests of Green and Whitehouse. I also see Phil McG is saying Whyte will be back on the scene this week to answer further questions. However, the joy I witness from Rangers fans online, and indeed in the passing today, is puzzling. The current entity they support at Ibrox was set up by Green, and Whitehouse was part of the Adminstrators who sold the assets to him. Whyte claims the assets were his. If any wrongdoing is proven, and it remains an if, why do they think this entity would automatically be unaffected?
Smugas says:
Member: (929 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:16 pm
You have mail 😀
“Asked why he was there, Mr Green replied: “Well, one of the difficulties with today is my legal people had asked Police Scotland to provide us information that we’re likely to be questioned on and they wouldn’t provide that so I’m at a loss really.”
First time that Mr Green’s operated at a loss throughout his Scottish sojourns. I feel his pain. 🙂
Doesn’t it serve ads based on your browsing history? 😉
neepheid on September, 2015 at 4.58pm
I also wondered what the Police forgot to ask Mr Whitehouse about last November.
Conscious of the treading on eggshells approach to cases which are sub iudice here I will opine in the hypothetical.
Supposing someone appeared in Court, with or without three others, on 17th November 2014 and was granted Bail.
In terms of the relevant legislation after six months summary proceedings, that is, before a Sheriff or Justice of Peace, would ordinarily be time barred.
If such a person were to be tried in the High Court an Indictment would have to be served on that person and a Preliminary Hearing commenced within 11 months. I make that 17th October 2015 although many dull hours have been spent arguing whether days are included or excluded in the calculation. Call it mid October 2015. The Indictment would have to be served on that person at least 29 clear days before the Preliminary Hearing. Call it mid September 2015. Like in a couple of weeks.
Similar provisions apply to Sheriff and Jury cases but if you think of it as a Trial having to start within a year and an Indictment having to be served a month before that you won’t be far out.
Just saying.
fishnish says:
Member: (42 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 5:53 pm
“Asked why he was there, Mr Green replied: “Well, one of the difficulties with today is my legal people had asked Police Scotland to provide us information that we’re likely to be questioned on and they wouldn’t provide that so I’m at a loss really.”
First time that Mr Green’s operated at a loss throughout his Scottish sojourns. I feel his pain. 🙂
================================================
Don’t worry.
He’ll find a way to turn a profit.
You won’t believe how many gullible fools there are out there.
Actually, you will as you’re reading SFM rather than SMSM.
I’m sure the thoughts of returning to his chateau will prove adequate compensation for his temporary inconvenience though.
neepheid says:
Member: (741 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 9:33 am
Cluster One says:
Member: (275 comments)
August 31, 2015 at 10:38 pm
With the Accounts due sep 1st is the CG interviewed a good day to bury bad news
================================
The accounts for the year to 30 June 2015 aren’t due to be submitted to Companies House until 31 December 2015. From the CH website-
——–Thanks for clarification.
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1194 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 1:41 pm
Has anyone else noticed the press are being a bit more truthful regarding RFC’s liquidation. Generally stating ‘Rangers’ entered liquidation rather than the myth that it was a separate ‘company’?
Perhaps it’s no more than a desire to avoid misinformation when reporting on what is now a court case story rather than a football one.
—————-
Not the scottish sun.
Green was in charge at ibrox from july 2012 to April 2013.
His group bought over the club after it’s holding company went into liquidation under Whyte…….Krissy Storrar.
——————–
jimbo says:
Member: (87 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:45 am
Was raging with an article by Adrian Durham on Mail Online there. A complete rant against Celtic. But what got me going was ‘Rangers were demoted to the 3rd Division’.
So I tried to post this as a comment:
Go back and read reports of what actually happened in 2012. The new club were voted INTO the bottom tier despite the best efforts of the football authorities to shoehorn them into the top level. There was no demotion involved. Poorly researched article.
———Jimbo time to send off another comment
Sevconions celebrating the arrest of a man they once loved. A man who they were warned about by a sea of Internet bampots. A man who’s every move was explained by the aforementioned bampots. But the bampots were discounted as Timmy troublemakers.
We may now be heading into a phase where everything the bampots told them will be exposed in court.
They think that this is cause for celebration
Cluster One says:
Member: (277 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 6:50 pm
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1194 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 1:41 pm
Has anyone else noticed the press are being a bit more truthful regarding RFC’s liquidation. Generally stating ‘Rangers’ entered liquidation rather than the myth that it was a separate ‘company’?
Perhaps it’s no more than a desire to avoid misinformation when reporting on what is now a court case story rather than a football one.
—————-
Not the scottish sun.
Green was in charge at ibrox from july 2012 to April 2013.
His group bought over the club after it’s holding company went into liquidation under Whyte…….Krissy Storrar.
———
Is the Sun a newspaper and so falls under the description ‘the press’?
Jings, I never ever knew that! Every day’s a school day 😀
Craig Whyte has appeared at Helen Street Police Station for questioning today-
http://news.stv.tv/west-central/1327848-ex-rangers-chief-executive-charles-green-detained-in-police-custody/
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (522 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 12:34 am
Has Keith Jackson been reminded of the Motherwell born billionaire’s off the radar wealth recently? Like an elephant (in the room?), Scottish Football Monitor does not forget.
==============================================================
This appeared on Keith Jackson’s Twitter at 23.46 yesterday (discovered via a repost on The Clumpany’s excellent blog). I owe Keith Jackson an apology (gulp!), as he had already outed himself before I posted my message at 12.34am, almost an hour later.
Sorry Keith.
<
keith jackson
@tedermeatballs
This Rangers story has been all consuming for more than just me. From my 'radar' abomination to the brink of justice. It's been some 5 years
31 Aug 2015 23.46
neepheid says:
Member: (742 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:58 pm
I suspect that, given the other people who were detained at the time, his previous involvement related to the purchase of Rangers by Whyte and it’s subsequent administration. His latest detention, given the others who have allegedly been detained, may relate to the liquidation and sale of assets to Green.
Whilst on the face of it linked these would potentially be looked at as separate investigations. They would certainly be separate offences.
Charles Green charged- to appear in court tomorrow. From Twitter-
Now, you see, instead of struggling manfully and with the minimum of success with economics 101 why could the following question not have featured:
Mr green attends livvie polis claiming he doesn’t know why. Mr whyte attends Glasgow queen st knick knowing damn fine why. With these alleged coincidental facts to hand Explain the nuances of ‘the prisoners dilemma’ ? Please show your workings.
Jeez, I’d still have been writing yet!
neepheid says:
Member: (743 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:15 pm
Charles Green charged- to appear in court tomorrow. From Twitter-
Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug 2h2 hours ago
Charles Green charged by Police Scotland and will appear in private at court in Glasgow tomorrow morning. #Rangers
=======================================
More here. And a video for those that miss
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-34109840
And so it begins?
If Green and Whitehouse have been arrested and Green now charged (with Whitehouse to follow?), is it likely that those charges relate to the switcheroo? Whyte, after all, hasn’t yet been arrested, as far as we know.
Big Pink
Green was one of the parties to the 5 Way Agreement yes?
That agreement with SFA and SPL was necessary to enable a takeover to take place.
Given that arrests are in respect of the takeover and SFA/SPL are parties to it, does this mean in effect an embargo on asking questions or making any comments whatsoever on the SFA or SPL lest their part in the 5 Way becomes part of police investigations?
I would have thought a while ago that fear and incompetency were the drivers for both SFA/SPL but is there any risk it goes beyond that and that there can be no mention at all of the SFA/SPFL until either
a)they make a statement about their involvement clarifying they are not under investigation
or
b) the court case runs its course ( if it ever gets such a public hearing.)
On Clyde they took immediate steps to say the arrests meant no public discussion but was that just on the parties from Ibrox or are the game’s governors also included?
My feeling is that there is going to be an unravelling that rips up both the LNS and UEFA licence jerseys where deception has been a feature of both joined together by the wee tax case.
If I were Scottish football Id find some guys that were clean, make a confession of errors of bad judgement if not irregular behaviour and clear out of Dodge to leave new guys with ethics to clean up.
nawlite says:
Member: (182 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:26 pm
If Green and Whitehouse have been arrested and Green now charged (with Whitehouse to follow?), is it likely that those charges relate to the switcheroo? Whyte, after all, hasn’t yet been arrested, as far as we know.
==============================
The BBC article appears to conflate the Whyte purchase from Murray in 2011 and the 2012 sale of assets by the administrators to Green. Are they implying that Green was in from the start and the “you are Sevco” from 2012 was part of something planned even when (S)DM was still in charge?
I don’t want to come over all X-Files, but when Keith Jackson used the word nuclear in that Twitter exchange last night, I was a bit sceptical but maybe that was just battle fatigue and my default cynicism having seen the word used more than once in the last three or four years.
Sacre bleu! I hope Charles fed them horses this morning.
Interesting the mention of the dates
nawlite says:
Member: (182 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:26 pm
If Green and Whitehouse have been arrested and Green now charged (with Whitehouse to follow?), is it likely that those charges relate to the switcheroo? Whyte, after all, hasn’t yet been arrested, as far as we know.
==========================
Whyte now arrested-
Craig Whyte also charged, apparently-
Chris McLaughlin @BBCchrismclaug 5m5 minutes ago
Could be a very busy morning at Glasgow Sheriff Court. Charles Green, Craig Whyte and David Whitehouse all due to appear. #Rangers
38 retweets 27 favorites
Phil is reporting that Team Ashley is doing an impact analysis on the loan. In the circumstances this would be the normal thing to do, an event happens, you look at the impact this may have on your business.
If Ashley does call in the loan, (which is secured against a number of RIFC assets), then that really would be a Red Flag.
A number of sphincters in Govan and Mount Florida will be twitching – GOOD!
Interesting times down Govan way, in the Chinese sense of the term
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/ashley-advisers-look-at-january-27th-loan-again/#more-6752
Auldheid,
Yes very Platonic 🙂 But I’ll bite.
I have no doubt that the Green arrest will be a welcome fig-leaf for the press to hide behind when difficult questions arise, but the way I see it, the arrests have been in respect of the takeovers of Rangers and the acquisition of its liquidated assets in 2011 & 2012.
Since I assume the 5WA had nothing to do with either situation, I can’t see why we would throttle back on discussion of that.
If the 5WA agreement had something to do with facilitating the switcheroo from Sevco 5088 to Sevco (Scotland) then I would be laughing my bahookie off at what is to come, and wouldn’t be fit to make a subjudice remark.
But since we don’t know what’s in the 5WA, I think we are cool 😎 😈
I don’t believe subjudice rules prevent me from saying:
(a) It is an undeniable fact that a a large majority of Rangers fans welcomed Craig Whyte to the club. It is also an undeniable fact a large majority of Rangers fans rallied against the BBC when they highlighted the truth about Whyte.
(b) It is an undeniable fact that a a large majority of Rangers fans welcomed Charles Green to the club, after he was endorsed by McCoist. It is also an undeniable fact a large majority of Rangers fans rallied against the rest of Scottish football when Green lashed out in every direction.
Personally I think all of those Rangers fans have a damned cheek viewing the arrests today as some sort of vindication. They should be ashamed at welcoming such people into the game. They might want to think twice about their current leader as well.
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (525 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:44 pm
Charles Green’s comments, made in June 2012 re the CVA refusal by HMRC have always been intriguing. Just how far back was he actually involved. Certainly further back than his interest became public knowledge.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/rangers-takeover-charles-green-says-hmrc-misled-rangers-1-2350788
“Duff & Phelps have consistently said to me that they were in dialogue with HMRC and that they hadn’t rejected the CVA route. To see them today saying this is a policy decision leaves me speechless. If that’s the case, is that a policy that was invented this week?
“If not, why weren’t we told that in February or March? We could have gone into a newco then and saved a huge amount of money and time. It would also have removed the false hope from Rangers fans.”
I have always considered that a bit of a slip on his part.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (399 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:34 pm
MoreCelticParanoia says:
Member: (126 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 4:12 pm (Edit)
Saw the Adrian Durham thing about Celtic’s last 3 years of “fake” success.
Wonder what he thinks of Rangers’ 15 or so years of success via tax cheating, spending other people’s money, stiffing creditors and breaking SFA contract rules, and where is his article about it?
____________________________________________
Do you (we) really care? I mean Adrian Humdrum ffs
===============================
Adrian Durham is little more than a salaried Troll. I’m sympathetic to fans reacting when their club is slandered or derided but we all really should ignore this muppet.
If those detained do end up in court on the charges brought against them, then fingers crossed for a “cut-throat defence” by each of the accused. 😎
scottc says:
Member: (220 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:49 pm
A police statement said: “Following a Police Scotland operation on Tuesday 1 September 2015, a 50-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the ongoing investigation into the alleged fraudulent acquisition of Rangers FC in 2011.
Police Scotland confirmed a 62-year-old man had been arrested and was being detained in police custody “in connection with an ongoing investigation into the alleged fraudulent acquisition of Rangers FC in 2012″
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
When will they get around to arresting some Journalists?
Or is repeated lying not a criminal offence?
Matty Roth says: Member: 1 September 2015 at 9:38 pm
From Wikipedia
Adrian Durham
“He was described in The Guardian as an “expert phone-in troll, arrogantly spouting inflammatory football opinions in the hope of prompting some indignant phone rage from an uppity fan.”[3] He once accused Jamie Carragher of being a “bottler” for retiring from international football, which prompted the Liverpool and England defender to call in to the show to confront Durham.[4] His criticism of Celtic manager Neil Lennon prompted a phone call from Celtic fan Rod Stewart, who gave Durham a “gentle lashing”.[3]”
[3] http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2011/may/20/talksport-review
It should be called Talkshite Radio. 😀
I’d also “Love it” if Campbell Ogilvie was called as a witness to testify about what was discussed at his meeting with Craig Whyte prior to RFC plc being placed into administration on 14 February 2012. 😎
“Police Scotland confirmed a 62-year-old man had been arrested and was being detained in police custody”
Now that is interesting. Normally the person would be detained, interviewed and if appropriate arrested and charged post that interview. If he was detained for interview and then arrested and charged but is still in Police custody then I can only imagine that he will be appearing in a Court near you sometime very soon.
I would imagine that he will be released shortly after a hearing, possibly the same day, however to keep someone in custody after they are charged would normally mean something is going to happen very soon.
Strange that ‘Rangers’ was acquired twice. Whyte I get, but Green? I take it STV & the quotes above referencing a 2012 ‘acquisition’ are just lazy/ill-informed journalism?
Some sources are reporting correctly that it was a purchase of assets by Green, while others are still equating that with acquiring ‘Rangers’ 😯
Still, what can you expect when governing bodies wilfully neglect their duty by not stating the true facts? Ooft.
I never thought it a legitimate entity, more a desperate botch and fudge job. But can the newco ‘club’ now have any sporting legitimacy in the eyes of the public in these circumstances?
scapaflow says:
Member: (1414 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 9:15 pm
Phil is reporting that Team Ashley is doing an impact analysis on the loan. In the circumstances this would be the normal thing to do, an event happens, you look at the impact this may have on your business.
If Ashley does call in the loan, (which is secured against a number of RIFC assets), then that really would be a Red Flag.
A number of sphincters in Govan and Mount Florida will be twitching – GOOD!
Interesting times down Govan way, in the Chinese sense of the term
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/ashley-advisers-look-at-january-27th-loan-again/#more-6752
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When I read Phil’s blog earlier it immediately made sense that, with the bulk of the ST money in the coffers, now would be the best time for Ashley to demand repayment of the loan. Any dillution of the security is likely to be a trigger if any is required, and if it disappears altogether he will only rank alongside the rest of the mugs, I mean creditors, in the event of administration.
I would imagine, that if any of the assets are involved in the charges and subsequent trial, that those assets will be frozen, not preventing the club from using them, but preventing their disposal or use as security. All talk of rights issues and admission to a stock market would cease, and no doubt MA would look to arrest TRFC’s bank accounts pending a court order to repay the loan. I wonder, too, if the train of events will enable Ashley to seize, completely, the badges etc that he seems most interested in achieving!
Some of the new ads are OK but I keep getting one’s of birds with big boobies? What’s that all about? Last week I kept getting one’s for Bingo! OK Celtic Paranoia.
(Was nearly tempted to join the Bingo site, I used to secretly enjoy the Bingo at our Club. got quite excited when I was waiting on one. Never won though!)
Sorry, completely off topic, delete as you wish Big Pink, although I have a few stories about you playing Bingo around the West of Scotland. £200?
Having read the wording of the statements by Police Scotland about today’s events I sincerely trust that the Charges contained in the Petitions to be served on the Accused tomorrow do not refer to any alleged “fraudulent acquisition of Rangers FC in 2012”.
2011-fair enough but 2012?
Homunculus says:
Member: (237 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 9:37 pm
The Cat NR1 says:
Member: (525 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:44 pm
Charles Green’s comments, made in June 2012 re the CVA refusal by HMRC have always been intriguing. Just how far back was he actually involved. Certainly further back than his interest became public knowledge.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/rangers-takeover-charles-green-says-hmrc-misled-rangers-1-2350788
“Duff & Phelps have consistently said to me that they were in dialogue with HMRC and that they hadn’t rejected the CVA route. To see them today saying this is a policy decision leaves me speechless. If that’s the case, is that a policy that was invented this week?
“If not, why weren’t we told that in February or March? We could have gone into a newco then and saved a huge amount of money and time. It would also have removed the false hope from Rangers fans.”
I have always considered that a bit of a slip on his part.
============================================
Indeed. I do remember that but I just put it alongside the 500M fans hyperbole as CG using words to fill a silence without considering their meaning. Maybe it was an accidental intrusion of truth into CG’s default snake oil salesman patter.
I’m still waiting for the disrepute charge arising from the “If you hate Stewart Regan” singalong, but that may have to wait a wee while longer.
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1196 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:09 pm
You make a reasonable case.
It comes down to what it has always come down to, what is Ashley’s Game Plan beyond stitching up the retail side (job done there)?
For what its worth, (less than a single RIFC share
), I expect Ashley to stand fast for the moment. The loan gives him an awful lot of leverage, and he is fond of a punt. Besides, as you allude things could well play out in such a way that he gets his money back, without him having to play the heavy.
As hilarious as today’s events are, were are a long way from the final scene in this Euripidean tragedy, provisionally entitled he Fall of the House of Struth
Big Pink 9.20
On the basis that the SFA/SPFL are much much much more likely to be guilty of fear led incompetency on a grand scale than taking any backhanders Id agree they are unlikely to end up in the same dock as CG.
On that basis it should be ok to ask. Craig Whyte, Charles Green, Dave King all deemed fit and proper persons to be allowed a place in Scottish football- wit ur that SFA like?
As canarys start to trill the decent supporters of the team playing at Ibrox will be happy to discard their vaunted history
capaflow says:
Member: (1415 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:26 pm
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1196 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:09 pm
You make a reasonable case.
It comes down to what it has always come down to, what is Ashley’s Game Plan beyond stitching up the retail side (job done there)?
For what its worth, (less than a single RIFC share
), I expect Ashley to stand fast for the moment. The loan gives him an awful lot of leverage, and he is fond of a punt. Besides, as you allude things could well play out in such a way that he gets his money back, without him having to play the heavy.
As hilarious as today’s events are, were are a long way from the final scene in this Euripidean tragedy, provisionally entitled he Fall of the House of Struth
_____________
You may well be correct but I have a feeling that things, outside of any court case(s) that may prove lengthy, will move, as a result of those legal proceedings, rather quickly. Creditors such as MA will probably have a very small window in which to act, particularly, if, as suspected, the proceedings involve ownership of the assets.
LUGOSI says:
Member: (16 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 6:36 pm
“Just saying.”
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Coming in loud and clear.
In the Bears Den, the arrests aren’t only fun for TRFC* fans because they now dislike CW and CG (fickle bunch!), they’re convincing themselves that they’ll get huge compensation from the arrested (e.g. CG’s chateau), the SFA who were wrong to let not one but two chancers take over their club (Never mind that they would have gone ballistic if anyone tried to stop them anointing them!), the Criminal Compensation board (!) etc. Some of them are even suggesting they should be compensated for losing out on 3 years’ European competition monies; Premiership gates etc; the loss of transfer fees for those who chose not to TUPE etc – it’s madness!
Oh, and just for John Clark, there’s even a suggestion that if both their stewardships are found to be illegal, then the record books must be re-written so that Celtic’s tainted titles are removed from the record books. Honest, this is said without any hint of irony, or indeed self-awareness. Hilarious stuff, which I am sure isn’t indicative of all fans’ mindset.
Allyjambo says:
Member: (1197 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:44 pm
Quite possibly, which is why he’s doing the impact analysis. I would hope that the SFA & SPFL are undertaking similar exercises, assuming they have anyone capable of doing the work, which on the face of it, looks unlikely
LUGOSI says:
Member: (16 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:16 pm
Having read the wording of the statements by Police Scotland about today’s events I sincerely trust that the Charges contained in the Petitions to be served on the Accused tomorrow do not refer to any alleged “fraudulent acquisition of Rangers FC in 2012″.
2011-fair enough but 2012?
====================================
There could be an interesting OC/NC debate in court if that were the case.
The whole blog functionality is messed up for me at the moment. My suspicion is its something to do with the slider advertisement at the top of the screen.
nawlite says:
Member: (183 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 8:26 pm
“Whyte, after all, hasn’t yet been arrested, as far as we know.”
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The hearing in mid November at Glasgow Sherrif court may have been a commital hearing which might indicate that those in attendance (Whyte, Withey, Clark, Whitehouse) were indeed being held under charge. They would need to be charged before being prosecuted.
Big Pink says:
Moderator: (400 comments)
September 3, 2015 at 4:14 pm
Totally agree here – haud yer schadenfreude bus, keep powder dry and don’t endanger any proceedings by making inappropriate comments – even when you may be 100% convinced of their veracity!!
Fascinating day with a few to come:
1. Will MA call in his 5m and cause more chaos?
2. Where is DCK and is he involved that far back in one way or another.
3. Is MA also involved?
4. And something that keeps niggling me was [A]lly at the airport with herself from France. Connections tied to any of the above or something different.
As we have always said this saga can go anywhere any time and today is yet another of those days. Am sure transfer deadline was supposed to be a bit of cover but never enough for bampots. Will anyone involved with the 5WA be sleeping well tonight.
Tomorrow is another day.
nawlite says:
Member: (183 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:50 pm
In the Bears Den, the arrests aren’t only fun for TRFC* fans because they now dislike CW and CG (fickle bunch!), they’re convincing themselves that they’ll get huge compensation from the arrested (e.g. CG’s chateau), the SFA who were wrong to let not one but two chancers take over their club (Never mind that they would have gone ballistic if anyone tried to stop them anointing them!), the Criminal Compensation board (!) etc. Some of them are even suggesting they should be compensated for losing out on 3 years’ European competition monies; Premiership gates etc; the loss of transfer fees for those who chose not to TUPE etc – it’s madness!
Oh, and just for John Clark, there’s even a suggestion that if both their stewardships are found to be illegal, then the record books must be re-written so that Celtic’s tainted titles are removed from the record books. Honest, this is said without any hint of irony, or indeed self-awareness. Hilarious stuff, which I am sure isn’t indicative of all fans’ mindset.
==========================================
Will Elvis be performing at Barrowlands too?
Probably best that he drops Suspicious Minds from the set if he does.
jimbo says:
Member: (88 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 10:11 pm
Some of the new ads are OK but I keep getting one’s of birds with big boobies? What’s that all about? Last week I kept getting one’s for Bingo! OK Celtic Paranoia.
(Was nearly tempted to join the Bingo site, I used to secretly enjoy the Bingo at our Club. got quite excited when I was waiting on one. Never won though!)
Sorry, completely off topic, delete as you wish Big Pink, although I have a few stories about you playing Bingo around the West of Scotland. £200?
_______________________________________________________________________
I assume that is not a metaphor, and I fear you have stumbled accidentally upon my dark secret – for I certainly did have the bingo bug – kinda. It was little or no fun being part of a band in social clubs in the 80s. Autopilot engaged, playing wallpaper music to 20st bundles of fun as they Sloshed and Alley Cat-ed poor under sprung dancefloors to death.
But the intervals provided an oasis of drama in that desert of boredom – The Bingo. It was certainly better fun than the playing. And fershure, I did acquire no little skill along the way with a fair degree of success. But £200? Never in my dreams.
God how I don’t miss those days, and only he knows how many years it has robbed me of 🙂
.. and you do know the ads are tailored in varying degrees of accuracy for your own browsing customs? 😈
Encouragingly, about 15 people have expressed their wish to attend the “Perth Monitor”. Early indications are that Soup’n’sandwiches (with a rather douce Perthshire Tea & Biscuits spread to follow) are good for the soul.
Who am I to argue?
I am betting that more than a few people, if this goes ahead, will be surprised to bump into someone they know at the event. Where’s Cilla when you need her 🙁
Homunculus says:
Member: (238 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 9:37 pm
“I have always considered that a bit of a slip on his part.”
Me too, I seem to remember this being said on camera just as he was getting into a car on the day HMRC rejected the CVA.
It struck me at the time that if he was referring to “we” as including himself in February, why did it take so long (June) for his bid to be “preferred”?
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Big Pink says:
Moderator: (400 comments)
September 1, 2015 at 9:20 pm
“But since we don’t know what’s in the 5WA, I think we are cool”
——————————–
Can I ask if the above is tongue-in-cheek?
Indeed
http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/current-business/court-notices/contempt-of-court-orders
Question for our legal people.
If Mike Ashley was to go to court in an attempt to ring fence his £5M I’m pretty sure the argument from Rangers side would be it leaves them significantly short of money. Could a Judge overrule Ashley’s attempt simply on the basis they would be short of money? In that case would anything have any legal basis if the primary concern is that Rangers can’t be left short of money? Perhaps I’m getting ahead of myself here but it’s a scenario I can visualise happening.