Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
The CE says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 17:50
24 22 Rate This
Woo, hoo, Gilmour has asked Donkey to consider his position!
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/st-mirren/221890-stewart-gilmour-spl-chief-neil-doncaster-has-no-real-power/
Could this be the dam breaking?
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Unfortunately CE it doesn’t so much look like Gilmour asked him to consider his position as so much offered his own opinion of it. I’d be cheering if Gilmour actually tabled a motion of no confidence or even speaks out publicly and clearly to say that he feels Doncaster has ultimately failed to find an agreement but looking at the quotes in this article he held back from that and I don’t think Doncaster will take too much notice really.
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albabhoy says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 21:44
42 0 Rate This
“Pittodrie can seat up to 22,199 spectators – in Scotland, only Celtic Park, Murrayfield, Hampden and Ibrox are larger – but Aberdeen’s average attendance for the 2012/13 season so far stands at a disappointing 10,503“
Hold on a minute. “Disappointing”? ……………
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You are quite correct Albabhoy and most Aberdeen fans will also point to the fact that the style and quality of football under Brown has been abysmal with very very little to cheer at home. There’s little point looking at attendances of an club without trying to understand what the current feeling of the fans is – and at Afc its been a very disappointing season.
Come on Phil 🙂 what do you mean?? Are the shredders in again?
Phil,
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm in your comment ?
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
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Excellent post and something that should be followed up. It’s all very well having a few ‘elite’ training places but where are the players coming from? If there are very few opportunities for kids to develop (by having proper coaching by properly trained people and getting enough games) outside the elite, this elite will be drawn from a very few – and as a result won’t be much of an elite. There could be potential stars who will never get a chance to develop.
As well as this, if we believe in integrity in the game then every kid who wants a chance to play football and learn to be a better player should get that chance, even if they are only ever likely to end up as average players.
I’ve always been a bit suspicious of the special academies idea and so forth: yes it’s a good idea but can only be fully effective if you’ve got a pool of decent young talent to draw from. We’ve been putting the cart before the horse in this country, creating the elite set up and doing little about dwindling supply of talent in the country. The reasons behind the latter have been mentioned from time to time on this forum but maybe we should try to do something to make an issue of it. Though it obviously requires many points of attack as there is more than one single reason for the problem.
I find especially encouraging that Mr Ahmed and Mr Stockbridge could discuss complex matters in such a convivial manner this afternoon.
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:32
I find especially encouraging that Mr Ahmed and Mr Stockbridge could discuss complex matters in such a convivial manner this afternoon.
,,,,,,,
Has someone cut his back shaving?
Phil!!!! 🙂
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:22
6 0 i Rate This
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
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To be honest I think our kids are being badly nurtured way before academy level.
We are not even addressing these issues. All these meetings and proposals, for what, so that teams across the league get a few extra bob? Is that going to improve our league, really?
What makes it even more complex in my mind is the abilty of Islam Ferruz. He’s clearly by far and away one of the most technically gifted players we’ve produced in years, he’s light years ahead of our other kids(doesn’t mean he’ll end up a top player but he’s got the skills). He’s lived in Scotland since he was six, so why has he got skills other scottish players his age can only dream of? Are we sowing the seeds of mediocrity at a very young age?
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:22
Thanks, just glad i aint the only person thinking this way. Great example in our community is Free Football – come and play – on Friday evenings . We get an average of 50 young people turning up for a kick about every week. Sort them into teams and let them play.Got to jump through hoops for funding (mainly to pay for the facility hire) but this type of thing should be our real Commonwealth Legacy not tarting up Hampden(again) for the Athletics only to rip it back out after the games are over. Keep it an Athletics stadium, its crap for football. That type of money (or Campbells good night out) would keep us in free football for ever more. We would increase our talent pool no end.
That said, most Commonwealth Sports still have people (including administrators) at the top who continue to do so for the love of the sport and to develop the sport for sports sake,not just to line their pockets and help their friends (or people they owe) to the detriment of their sport. (im sure tthere will be many of our clued up posters who can give me examples to blow this apart!)
PS maybe Ibrox will continue to host Rugby after the games. Craigy , good opportunity for cash every second week and probably more entertaining than the current flair on show. Thats assuming you have the deeds…..Charlie says……….Shhhhh
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:
For the love of dog, Mr Mac!!!!! I accept that the cryptic “I know something that you don’t know” approach is your trademark writing style but I, for one, prefer a more adult communication style. If you have information about an event that you feel would interest the readers of this blog then just post it.
TSFM. What are your views on bias, factionalism and b1gotry from the fans of other clubs in Scotland?
Your previous post is totally on the money referencing RM and FF as sites which have problems, but it’s hardly an inclusive set of examples.
If you’re willing to be specific about Rangers/Sevco, how about you be frank about the problems in other clubs too,
For the record I genuinely believe Sevco’s fanbase have a bigger problem than all other clubs in the country in this respect, but this I believe this site is in danger of alienating reasonable fans with it’s hardline approach to Sevco. Posters can do this. The arbiters of the site can’t afford to do that and pretend to represent the interests of all of Scottish football.
dixonbainbridge71 says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:49
monsieurbunny says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:22
6 0 i Rate This
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
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Islam was fortunate , he was spotted and football then didn’t cost him money to play and be coached. The problem is kids who are talented and not spotted..they can’t afford to play and be coached every day.
Yes they can develop their natural talent on the streets or at their local pitch or park but to join a team with coaches (local level) costs families regular weekly money.
I see many boys of all ages and stages who are very talented but to continue to progress , develop and stay away from all other influences takes more than talent.
Again we are back to the elite.. i want to see boys (and girls) play the game at all levels but Football as our National Sport led by the Cabal has hardly been inspiring over the past however many years. In my day we played football because our heros got to the big tournaments. Kids have many other options for heroes these days.
Sorry guys (big hitters ) for getting in the way of some soon to be disclosed info..and thanks for your continued free education on all things SEVCO . It is indeed a pleasure .
1sarantseville @ 00.27
Speaking for myself, and maybe other lurkers might agree, it’s great to have your input. Like most I’m sure on here I’d lost contact with the most important level of all, where you’re at. I hope you’ll keep posting. You’re bringing my education up to date.
dixonbainbridge @ 23.49
I think you know the answer to your question. Because Islam is prepared to work at it. In fact he doesn’t realise he is working at the skills. He’s doing it because he enjoys it, and because he wants to keep beating the records he sets himself working with a ball – keepy-uppy, wee heidies, whatever. That’s where we’re falling down. But with youth coaches like 1sarantseville, things should look up. To paraphrase big Jock, professional football is nothing without the amateur youth coaches.
mirrenman says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 22:27
Don’t worry Buddie, I enjoy some of the more reactionary drivel aimed at me as it shows they can’t defeat my arguments! 🙂
Onwards and upwards and let’s take the lead from TSFM’s mature and pertinent post.
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:32
I find especially encouraging that Mr Ahmed and Mr Stockbridge could discuss complex matters in such a convivial manner this afternoon.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At last I think I’m getting the hang of these posts. The trick, it appears, is that whatever is posted then one should think the opposite. Clever, very clever. Now can we have it served up in an adult fashion with the details fleshed out a bit please. Cheers ears.
http://www.cityindex.co.uk/market-analysis/financial-news/uk-stock-market-news/9717692013/rangers-stocks-down-a-third/
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/stephen-mcmanus-scotland-need-rangers-in-spl-1-2901293
😕
We need the OF. 🙄
I think this may have slipped the net too, apologies if not; ‘The Whyte Stuff’
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-22194389
alex thomson@alextomo3 Jul
So Companies House shows that Scottish FA Pres Campbell Ogilvie had several thousand Rangers shares – passed to wife wn he became Hearts MD
Auldheid@Auldheid39s
@alextomo Article 13.2 at http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2012-13/SFA_HANDBOOK_53-136_Articles_of_Association.pdf … looks interesting and 13.5 (c) (i) defines “associate”
Did SFA give this the OK? Were they asked?
City commentator Justin Urquhart Stewart told the Sun: “All supporters should remain loyal club members. I’d buy season tickets and the scarves and any other forms of support, but I’m not too sure I’d be buying the shares.”
http://www.cityindex.co.uk/market-analysis/financial-news/uk-stock-market-news/9717692013/rangers-stocks-down-a-third/
I am no expert on City matters – however, a leading player in the square mile saying give cash to the club other than in purchasing shares must be alarming news for current and prospective institutional investors.
Returning to the tweets from Phil
Phil MacGiollaBhain (@Pmacgiollabhain) says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:32
I find especially encouraging that Mr Ahmed and Mr Stockbridge could discuss complex matters in such a convivial manner this afternoon.
I am guessing that there has been a development arising from regulatory a authority/authorities regarding the ownership of the asset Sevco 5088 or Sevco Scotland ltd. It has to be more that production of accounts. I am also assuming that its got something to do with money given Mr Ahmed’s role as the finance director.
It will be interesting to see what the share price does at the opening of the markets this morning.
http://www.livecharts.co.uk/share_prices/share_price/symbol-RFC
The following is a prediction. It is not based on inside information, merely the result of observing the actions of Longmuir and Ballantyne since this saga started
1 The SFL will bring forward a proposal to reorganize their own leagues only
2 This will not involve the SFA or the SPL, who have no authority over the SFL
3 The SFL will move from 3 divisions to 2
4 The SFL wil move to an 18-12 two tier league
5 The top tier of 18 will include all clubs who finished in positions 2-10 of the current SFL 1
6 The top tier of 18 will include all Clubs who finished in positions 1-7of SFL 2
7 The top tier of 18 will include the winners of SFL 3 (Rangers)
8 The relegated club from the SPL (Dundee)
The justifications will include
A) Bigger League, because that’s what the fans want
B) All division winning clubs are rewarded with a promotion
C) Opportunity for improved TV contract, because of better inventory
D) Opportunity for more clubs to benefit from Revenues derived from Rangers away support, which would be important whilst all League bodies work towards improved financial flow through model
The SFA could not veto this, and the SPL have no say, and some ( many) clubs in the SPL would be secretly delighted. The media would fall over themselves to support it , and those who complained about not changing the rules mid season would develop selective amnesia
So , who might vote for it now
Clubs 2-10 may well vote yes, as this is effectively SPL 2, with the benefit of a home game against Rangers. Given most of these clubs have a capacity for 6,000 away fans, and a price of £20 would be possible, then £120 K + catering revenues would be welcome. Rangers might even guarantee to buy the maximum allocation of away tickets as part of the proposal
Clubs 1-7 in SFL 2 currently. They would be one step away from the SPL, and still get their Rangers visit
Rangers
The relegated club from SFL 2 , as they would be in the bottom tier anyway
So, who would be potential No votes
The clubs who will finish in positions 2-9 in SFL 3 this season. However they wouldn’t lose out in any way from the reconstruction , so may be persuaded to vote yes , for “the good of the game”
Clubs who finished in positions 8 and 9 in SFL 2
As I said at the start, it’s a prediction, but it ticks most of the boxes that suit Longmuir and Ballantyne and could have a strong chance of getting the 75% approval required
Actally amend the previous , who might vote yes
Rangers don’t have a vote
barcabhoy 🙂
Sounds about right 🙂 and then hunners of ‘honest mistakes’ ……… Just to make sure everything turns out right!!!
BUT will there be a valid licence? 🙂
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 06:38
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When I heard yesterday the SFL had rejected the SFA offer to mediate the alarm bells started ringing. I think Barca could could be spot on here in general terms.
My personal view is Longmuir has been working on a ‘solution’ that benefits Sevco way above all others for some time now. Even worse this would increase his media standing to unbearable standards.
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 06:38
5 0 Rate This
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You know barca, if we leave out all of the jaundiced politics surrounding one particular club, then your prediction actually looks like an attractive solution, especially if they could create the possibilty for some excitement at the bottom of the 18-team table with English-style promotions and play-offs. The icing on the cake would be if they could negociate 2 promotion places with the SPL and even a money-spinning 3rd bottom SPL vs 3rd top of the new SFL 1 H/A fixture for a possible 3rd promotion place.
Danish Pastry
If Rangers were refused promotion to the SPL for 1 year, I might even vote for it myself, to ensure the integrity of the original decision for a 3 year exile from the top tier for Rangers
It provides for Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline, Morton, Raith Rovers, QOS, Livingston Hamilton and Falkirk , all in the same division
It should provide a decent competitive product.
If this comes to fruition it will once again prove that they are the people. The msm will love and support this proposal with absolute gusto. Sporting integrity will be lost forever.Only in Scotland could this happen and only with one club. As Brenda said the licence is very dodgy lets watch and see how they wiggle out of this one and who helps them.
No guarantee that Sevco would win that league unless Ally got his 10 million war chest
As I’ve mentioned before, but feel it needs repeating, the ‘solution’ that upthehoops talks about already existed last summer and it never happened. They had to start in the Third Division. If ensuring that The Rangers are in the top division is the main concern of the establishment, administrators and majority of clubs then why didn’t it happen? I just cannot see the conspiracy and collusion that many on here talk of.
bill1903 says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 07:42
No guarantee that Sevco would win that league unless Ally got his 10 million war chest
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In which case, another league reconfiguration next year?
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 06:38
5 0 Rate This
_______________
Pretty much spot on I’d say but I think they are driving for and ultimately still hope to negotiate 14-14-14 so at your 4 perhaps they might go 16-14 in year one (still keeping a place in the 16 for the Div 3 winners) and then at the end of the season go 3 up, 1 down or 4 up, 2 down or even 2 up and no one down to buy off a few SPL doubters.
What will the chairmen of the SPL think when they realise they have been suckered.
The game plan was always for the SFA/SFL to come to the rescue and implement their plans.
All that grief for nothing and blind sided all along by a 12 12 18 “take it all or leave it” plan that was set up to fail.
If I was Stewart Milne, or any other of the chairmen I’d keep them at barge pole length.
The SPL doesn’t need two conflicted administrators to come riding in on their white chargers.
I say this because the SPL has enough top businessmen around its top table to find its own solution. It just needs a will, and a good old fashioned lock in.
And if they need an honest temporary broker then bring one in from outside the SPL with no hidden agenda.
It could be a professional or an interested and knowledgable figurehead like Stewart Cosgrove, or Allan Munro who did such a good job at SRU when they were bust.
The person doesn’t matter because the guys round the table are the important ones.
And do it all honestly with published agendas and minutes for the fans.
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 07:30
3 0 Rate This
If Rangers were refused promotion to the SPL for 1 year, I might even vote for it myself …
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Refusing a promotion seems impossible, but who says a promotion place is a stick-on? With the pile up of court cases and ownerhip issues, not to mention the sheer cost of running a club of that size, you’d imagine it’s going to be a very lame duck for some time to come. With GC morphing into a less likeable form of Vlad and with the current cheque-book manager still in place, getting to the SPL could prove difficult. Anyway, GC is always true to his word and would have to refuse SPL promotion, or resign (if he hasn’t aleady done so).
I note the punishment handed out to Neil Lennon…which it would appear was based on 2 complaints from people not connected with the game itself?
Based on complaints being accepted from people not connected with the game…it is very dangerous ground they are treading on…and every SPL and SFL club should be concerned at this turn of events…
When should we expect a decision regards Charlie’s racist comments to be decided?
Barcabhoy
Sounds about right too me ,we all knew the latest shenanigans had a sevco angle at the heart of it all ,who knows, CG may have let the peepil ru(i)ning our game know that if sevco did not get a leg up they would go the same way of the old club .
The seemingly blind rush of the peepil to return to a failing set up tells us all we need to know regards where our game is going and IMO it won’t be too long before the fruits of their labour is exposed to the wider Scottish fan base and the bitter seed of corruption will be embedded in the gut of many more fans .
For my part as a Celtic fan all I can look forward to is the return of even more honest mistakes as the peepils chosen rival will have some new and taxing financial constraints to work within but the fans who will lose out most must be the fans of the other clubs who finally had a chance to play for honours and CL/EL places and as the peepils plan demands ,not only a sevco but a STRONG sevco the other clubs fans chances of CL/EL participation will surely be diminished .
Let’s face it how strong will sevco be without European income so it must surely be in the peepils interests to ensure they get it .
As I have said many times who is going to decide when the plan has achieved it’s goal and all aid will stop to ally a level playing field for all member clubs .
I appreciate TSFM’s comments about ad hominem abuse, although I am not sure which examples this refers to. Specific details might help everyone.
Such a reminder was particularly timely for me as I was just about to write a response to Phil McG’s modest and oh-so-helpful updates.
Phil@ 23:32
Is Phil suggesting that Messr’s Stockbridge and Ahmed are conducting the “independent” review into the takeover and their pal Green’s behaviour?
If so, you couldn’t even make it up!
Rougvie
Ahmed is under examination aswell.
Perhaps Green is not their pal anymore.
Recon.
13/14: status quo
14/15: 14 team top tier
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 08:03
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 07:30
If Rangers were refused promotion to the SPL for 1 year, I might even vote for it myself …
——–
Refusing a promotion seems impossible, but who says a promotion place is a stick-on? With the pile up of court cases and ownership issues, not to mention the sheer cost of running a club of that size, you’d imagine it’s going to be a very lame duck for some time to come. With GC morphing into a less likeable form of Vlad and with the current cheque-book manager still in place, getting to the SPL could prove difficult. Anyway, GC is always true to his word and would have to refuse SPL promotion, or resign (if he hasn’t already done so).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I think Barcaboy, you are probably very close to the result here and, if I am honest, like DP, I think it would be a pretty good contest. I really don’t think the Ibrox team would be stick on to win it. As a matter of interest, do you think the SFL will start talks about a pyramid scheme?
Long Time Lurker says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 05:50
11 0 Rate This
It will be interesting to see what the share price does at the opening of the markets this morning.
http://www.livecharts.co.uk/share_prices/share_price/symbol-RFC
——-
@LTL
On the lse.co.uk site they are showing a trade late yesterday of 50,000 shares at a price of 55p. But you can’t see if it’s a buy or sell. No bid/asking price either. Odd. But whatever, it’s the lowest trade price I’ve seen on those charts yet.
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 07:30
13 1 Rate This
Danish Pastry
If Rangers were refused promotion to the SPL for 1 year, I might
even vote for it myself, to ensure the integrity of the original
decision for a 3 year exile from the top tier for Rangers
It provides for Rangers, Dundee, Dunfermline, Morton, Raith
Rovers, QOS, Livingston Hamilton and Falkirk , all in the same
division
It should provide a decent competitive product.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps some sort of restriction on squad size and/or cost (based on the way-more-than-necessary levels currently enjoyed at Ibrox)?
And I’d still want to see some mechanism whereby clubs can gain entry to the bottom division on sporting merit.
If something like Barcabhoy’s suggestion comes to fruition then I’ll wager that it will be Longmuir’s last act before he becomes CEO at Ibrox.
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 06:38
======================================================
The two posters above provided thoughtful pieces offering views on the current state of Scottish football from grassroot kids football through to the top pro leagues. When the football authorities have got themselves in such a state you might expect an opinion or offer of help from politicians – some might even suggest that one of them should be our Bismarck (you may question their ability, I know) but not a peep. I bet more people who read this site could name the UK sports minister before they could the Scottish one. We’ve heard little or nothing since Alex Salmond got burned for his ill-judged/ill researched comments on the Rangers situation in February 2012.
There have been numerous challenges by the UK government to UK-wide and English national sporting bodies in regard to their strategy and management of their various sports with for example, the Commons Culture, Media and Sport Committee stating into a report on football , “English football has been told it must introduce reforms within a year or the government will impose changes”. The report outlines concerns about financial management, the balance of power between the Premier League and the Football Association and the impact of significant risk-taking by owners. Sports minister Hugh Robertson MP welcomed the report.
It’s questionable how much influence government has on the EPL but there may be greater scope in Scotland where public money is invested in facilities across the country including – Toryglen, Ravenscraig, the elite sports centre at Stirling University, the new national sports academy, Murray Park, St Mirren’s (included for CE and Barca).
Why isn’t Ms Robison wading in?
DP
Please explain for those not familiar with the financial markets, in particular AIM.
If a shareholder decides to sell 50,000 shares, are they parked in limbo until buyer comes along ?
Or are they offered to the market at an decreasingly lower price until someone buys ?
With the above in mind, at what point does the sell / purchase reflect on the market data ?
Finally how is the bid price calculated ?
Any experts ?
Danish Pastry says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:04
Rangers shares are in freefall with no obvious support level. It is only very low volumes that are stopping a complete collapse in the price. No serious trader would touch these, other than to short them. It is only blind loyalty / stupidity to hold these shares. I dabble a bit in the market myself and I’ve heard many times, never get emotionally attached to a share. It is a transactional relationship and should be treated as such.
The belief now is that the football club is eternal and the company only a shell that carries the club spirit and looks after the mucky financial stuff. By that logic, you cannot own shares in the football club, only the shell. That shell is looking very fragile at the moment. The football club may one day again be released to live with the fairies until a benevolent group of secret investors come to save the day and put humpty dumpty back together again.
The CE says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 17:16
As if the 8-8-8 plan didn’t seem good enough already…
I’m sure the TV company would be falling over themselves to cover these matches….
==================================================================
I agree.
They wouldn’t.
I can’t see how ANY form of reconstruction will improve the game in Scotland.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/whats-wrong-with-scottish-football-there-are-far-too-many-teams/#more-3522
City Index—-Rangers shares fall by a third.
“But shares dropped to 61p this week, down from the peak of 93p, meaning the value of the company has fallen by £5 million.”
———
Meaning the Company at top price was valued at £15million?????
Sure that’s only £5m more than the fans put in?
greenockjack says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:16
Prices are set by Market Makers (as they are commonly called) of which there are about half a dozen – I don’t remember their names. They set prices according to their potential / actual liabilities. They compete with each other so investors get the best prices for their buys and sells – in theory, regular traders will know that Market Makers get up to all sorts of mischief.
It is important to remember that stock market reflect the price that an investor is willing to buy or sell a certain number of shares at on a given day. They have no relation to the real value of a company, which is often only realised during a takeover. If someone wanted to buy Celtic, for example, I suspect they would have to pay significantly more than the current market capitalisation (the number of shares in issue multiplied by the share price).
LW
Perhaps some sort of restriction on squad size and/or cost (based on the way-more-than-necessary levels currently enjoyed at Ibrox)?
————————————————
Would you want the same or similar introduced in the SPL ?
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
A wee addition connected to the excellent post from 1sarantseville.
Once again I return to the good old USofA and look at the structures for their ‘football’.
The usual practice is as follows
High School football – Friday night
College Football – Saturday
NFL – Sunday
NFL – One game selected for Monday Night Football.
In that way an aspiring young player can play for his school and then watch the two levels above him as a paying customer.
What we often have in this country, due to games being played all over the shop, is aspiring players playing at the same time as the senior team they may wish to support.
Therefore the senior clubs miss out on young fans and most likely their dad’s and possibly other members of the family attending a game or paying to watch it on TV.
Now that may help with developing young talent. However I am reminded of a lad I was at school with who followed his local senior team with such passion that he only played school football on saturday mornings (he even missed that if he wanted to go to an away game) but never ventured into the juvenile leagues where most of the talent that had a prospect of making it at a senior level were playing.
The irony was that the lad was a wizard and IMHO could have gone on to be paid to wear the strip of the club he loved.
That was a good few years back and I am guessing that the situation is even worse now given that there are also other sports and activities that kids get involved in.
The game in this country is so disjointed (mostly driven by the controlling influence of the TV money) that it really isn’t making the most of the potential talent and support that is out there.
dedeideoprofundis says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:30
City Index—-Rangers shares fall by a third.
“But shares dropped to 61p this week, down from the peak of 93p, meaning the value of the company has fallen by £5 million.”
———
Meaning the Company at top price was valued at £15million?????
Sure that’s only £5m more than the fans put in?
=====================================================
And this morning the shares are down again to 59p……
Not long now.
I haven’t actually seen anyone mention this but I have no doubt that AIM Regulation are also currently conducting an investigation into what has been happening with regard to Secvco 5088 and TRFCL and its predecessors as well as RIFC Plc and the conduct of its CEO and key employee Imran Ahmad who is also a director of TRFCL and large shareholder in RIFC Plc.
They are not sitting around just waiting on the results of anything that may or may not arise from the Rangers internal inquiry. AIM have not only a responsibility to existing RIFC Plc shareholders but to the proper regulation of the AIM Market.
As usual our MSM have failed to ask the obvious question of AIM and this goes for the city journos as well: ‘Are you conducting an investigation?’.
I have no doubt that our intrepid journos are scared to ask the question because they might feel. no matter the pressure placed on them or promises offered, that they might have to publish the news.
So we end-up with City pundits advising not to buy the shares but Scots are kept in the dark as to what’s happening. So, what’s new?
scapaflow14 says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 10:20
Mr McCoist, may or may not develop into a good manager, but he is manifestly not the right sort of manager for Rangers at the moment.
==========================================================================
I think Ally is managing just fine.
Just what Scottish football needs.
Re. shares discussion. RST spent c£250,000 of fans money on shares. That surely was an emotional investment and the real gamblers are in the game now. Might it be wise for them to bail out?
beatipacificiscotia
Thank´s for the explanation.
If you or anyone else has the time.
– So with the 50,000 share trade @ 55p, one Market Maker has set this price.
– There being about half a dozen MM´s is the reason for what appears to be such variations in pices in any given day ?
– How is the overall price set, ie. sum of all MM´s ?
– Define “all sorts of mischief”, ie. thinking specificaly of the present situation with Rangers shares/price/trades ?
1sarantseville says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 23:05
A great post, and many, thanks for an insight into the real grassroots of our game.
The situation you describe is quite frankly intolerable. It represents a total failure by the Scottish Government, in my opinion. As an obvious first step,publicly owned pitches should be hired out free of charge to properly organised teams w here all the players are 16 or under. The same for all sporting facilities, by the way, not just football.
Even if the top of the game was cleared of corruption and perfectly restructured, what would be the point if no youngsters are interested in the game? And if they don’t get the chance of playing the game as 10 year olds, then this much is certain- most of them won’t be paying to watch professional football as 40 year olds.
Since the world’s greatest football administrator is currently sat in an office at Hampden playing minesweeper all day because he is too conflicted to get involved with the pressing issues in the professional game, how about he gets off his backside and uses those finely tuned administrative skills to address an issue like this, where his conflicted status wouldn’t get in the way of him doing something constructive for the future of the Scottish game?
Or more realistically, how about a petition or open letter to the Scottish Government?
Barcabhoy, I can’t help agree this will be proposed but I’ll try and take this up…..
A) Bigger League, because that’s what the fans want
That’s true but why the 2nd tier and not the 3rd as the 18? The SPL are clearly predisposed to a 12 as tier 2, this would be a direct contradiction of their wishes and the tail wagging the dog.
How does the pyramid system work? That was one of the reasons the 3rd tier was to be larger in the SPL plan was it not?
B) All division winning clubs are rewarded with a promotion
That happens with the status quo!
C) Opportunity for improved TV contract, because of better inventory
They would need to have evidence of that, a promise or bluster would be obvious to all. I can’t see a promise of moonbeams being swallowed by big Turnbull.
If they do evidence a TV contract then exactly when did those negotiations start? This takes months, not days. Why were the SPL not involved, are the SFL not actually interested in any sort of respect and merger on equal terms? What is their agenda? (I know, I know)
D) Opportunity for more clubs to benefit from Revenues derived from Rangers away support, which would be important whilst all League bodies work towards improved financial flow through model.
Fundamentally this is wrong. Progressing a club and restructuring for financial gain from that club will again unleash the sporting integrity bampots. Aberdeen, Celtic, Dundee United, Hibs and the SPL Clubs are not in the SFL of course, but I imagine the SFL would be sounding the death knell of their league cup.
It would incredibly short term, on the assumption that Rangers would be promoted after 1 season the SFL are left with a bigger league that many have said doesn’t work financially.
A 2nd tier of 18 was never part of the SPL plan for financial reasons. The SPL would need to protect its clubs from being demoted into a potential abyss and have a moratorium on relegation for a 2 or 3 year period (as was the lock in under their rejected proposal). This would test the structure of 18 properly before allowing its members to be cast into a league into which it has been allowed no input.
As far as I can see there is a fundamental issue in restructuring that has not been addressed – the fans desire for a bigger league. However 1 league body, financial flow through and pyramid were offered and the argument that a bigger league in the top league and tier 2 does not work financially seems to have been reluctantly accepted across the board.
This hypothetical SFL plan offers the bigger league that the fans want but is not tested financially, it does not offer the flow through model, or one league body and we will wait to see what is says on pyramid. In fact they put at risk the flow through model, any trickle down of cash to a league of 18 may be waste of time given the further dilution among clubs.
Finally though the appetite to elevate RFC is insatiable. Longmuir and others have been told that RFC do not have enough cash for any more than one more season out of the SPL and that’s a fact. This is an ‘at all costs’ issue for them and I expect Scottish Football’s well-being to be a secondary consideration to that. I have to add that in the last 18 months my respect for Turnbull Hutton and a few others has grown enormously and this isn’t over yet.
Eco
At what point (level of reasonable doubt as to where developing situation was going) would trading be suspended in a company in the AIM martket ?
For clarity there was a 3 year lock in to restructure to give it a chance, not on relegation.
You would expect that the announcement of the securing of Div 3, kit & shirt sponsorship deals along with the potential stadium naming rights and exciting new retail and revenue generating developments, buoyed up by interim accounts posting a £9.5m profit would have a club on the up and up.
However the share price is on the down down.
What is the next landmark?
50p
47p (being half of the 94p high point)
35p (being half of the 70p offer price).
Can one of the Jambos (can’t remeber if easy or ally) remind us of what some of the early birds paid for their shares. I think it was within a range of 1p to 50p?
greenockjack says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:46
The mischief mentioned wasn’t in relation to Rangers, just generally speaking Market Makers have “tricks” to get your shares of you cheap, particularly people silly enough to set “stop loss” levels.
I don’t believe the volumes involved with Rangers are big enough for the Market Makers to even take a notice – remember, no emotional attachment. The Market Makers don’t care, and won’t until we see some serious volumes of buys or sells.
barcabhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 06:38
It good be a good solution for the SFL. As for Rangers getting a leg up, Ovid had some wise words:
“When the Gods wish to punish us, they answer our prayers”
A leg up shouldn’t happen, but at the same time, I don’t think we should necessarily be according Rangers a significance they no longer have. It’s gong to be a very interesting few weeks,
beatipacificiscotia
Thank´s again !
Two more, looking ahead to when large shareholders will be looking to sell serious volumes.
What potential areas of “mischief” are there so as sellers maximise ROI or is it simply that they have to go with the price at that given moment ?
Does the term, Share support scheme have any relevance ?
“Does the term, Share support scheme have any relevance”
Only if you want to be locked up with your own chamber pot
Re Share Price:
55.00 4.50 / 7.56% 0 — —
Latest price in GBX Today’s change
This is from the FT and is behind a paywall quoted at “As of Apr 19 2013 07:15 BST”
http://markets.ft.com/research/Markets/Tearsheets/Summary?s=RFC:LSE
Still heading south in other words and trading at 55P
greenockjack says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:31
3 0 Rate This
LW
Perhaps some sort of restriction on squad size and/or cost (based
on the way-more-than-necessary levels currently enjoyed at
Ibrox)?
————————————————
Would you want the same or similar introduced in the SPL ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There must be something that promotes sustainability. I obviously used the example at Ibrox as it is a level that most clubs would love to have at their disposal.
Most clubs (and possibly even The Rangers) would, of course, struggle to maintain the finance required.
The obvious anomaly is Celtic, hence your subtle question. Celtic is of course working within its means but that hasn’t always been the case, so I would welcome any sort of governance that bars the club from over-stepping its means in future.
There is no easy answer but we must guard against another SDM-style ‘arms race’ ever happening again.
wottpi says: Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:57
Can one of the Jambos (can’t remeber if easy or ally) remind us of what some of the early birds paid for their shares. I think it was within a range of 1p to 50p?
====================================
From the August SH01 for TRFC Ltd there were the following prices:
19.2M at £0.01p
1M at £0.50p
8.8M at £0.99p
290K at £1.00
…… and from the October SH01 for TRFC Ltd:
3.07M at £1.00
……. and from 7th Dec SH01 for RIFC Plc:
143K at £0.70p
…… and from the 18th Dec SH01 for RIFC Plc:
33.7M at £0.70p (in respect of the share exchange with TRFC Ltd shares)
24.2M at £0.70p (institutional investors take up of share offer)
…… and from the 19th Dec SH01 for RIFC Plc:
7.44M at £0.70p (gullible bears take up of share offer)
wottpi says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 09:57
Can one of the Jambos (can’t remeber if easy or ally) remind us of what some of the early birds paid for their shares. I think it was within a range of 1p to 50p?
——————————————————————————————————————————-
Not a jambo but hopefulyl a mere Celtic fan will do 🙂
There were a few prices and off the top of my head there was about 19 million sold at 1p – 2 million at £1 – and more between 40-50p. These were all to original consortium members plus a few who joined in getting towards the flotation date with some paying £1 a share – oops.
But it gets a little complicated because a lot who bought at 1p also seem to have had some kind of option to possibly double their holding but at a higher price. It must be remembered that all these shares were in TRFCL and were later swapped for RIFC Plc shares.
I’m not sure that ‘landmarks’ mean much to AIM spivs as it doesn’t matter whether pricers are going up or down there is money to be made at the expense of the public who don’t actually have a clue what’s actually going on.
Landmarks that have some significance are the original AIM flotation price of 76p and the g
highest price of 94p and 70p might mean a little to Bear investors as that is what they paid but we know that football supporters, in thge main, don’t expect to make money.
But as others have said the volumes of shares traded are very thin so it’s difficult to make any real educated guesses as to where this is going. All that is clear is that it the share has been clearly falling since January 7 2013 approx,
easyJambo says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 10:20
Many thanks.
So I know it is a long way to go and we are still talking about low volumes at present but it is only those with the 19.2m of 1p shares that are still looking to be quids in at present as it is likely to go below 50p soon.
How who might that be? 🙂
ecobhoy says:
Friday, April 19, 2013 at 10:32
Many thanks as well, you mere Celtic fan you. 🙂
Anyone who bought at 50p will be looking to shift them as soon as they are allowed. Share price below 60p now so all the 70p shares already well out of the money.
Can’t see it heading anywhere but South (unlike the club. Badoom tish, thangkew thangkew…).
Night Terror says:
Thursday, April 18, 2013 at 11:54
Have I missed something about the 5 Way Agreement?
What is assumed to be in it? How much do we know about what is in it? Why is it so important?
==========================================================================
I don’t know what’s in it.
My concern is why they have decided to keep what’s in it secret.
LW
The idea you put forward suggested an evening up of the financial playing field where relatively large disparities were regulated against by restrictions on squad size / wagebill.
Wouldn´t you agree that what the SPL needs is real competition ?
Wouldn´t you agree that the current situation, given circumstances (inc.longterm economic crisis) needs radical solutions ?
Why shouldn´t Scotland lead the way on wagecaps for players/coaching staff ?
Wages down, ticket prices down, real competition, crowds up.
Sport 2 Business 0