Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 11:51
I was wondering if anyone remembers Green stating on TV or tape recently
about the shareholders being public knowledge as well as the price they paid. This is a mixture of nonsense and half-truth but I would like to pin his exact quote down if anyone remembers where it appeared I would appreciate it.
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He said it in middle of the recent STV interview.
But then he also claimed to have an email the interviewer could see…..
wottpi says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:00
0 0 Rate This
Phil Mac teasing again
Phil MacGiollaBhain @Pmacgiollabhain
I mean, after last week, what could possible go wrong this week?
Maybe we’ll know after-hmmm-after Wednesday.
Yeah, I’ll go with Wednesday!
Given his shout on the need for a hand writing expert I’d say the man was back on form.
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certainly won’t be ORANGE WEDNESDAY!!
Whyte wednesday?
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:00
Notice the youtube link to Singapore and Offshore banking.
That could tie in with Keith Jackson’s assertions last week.
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:03
He also told Scotland Tonight a wee while back that as the fans didn’t take up their full allocation of shares he would offer them back to the institutions and if they didn’t take them he would buy them himself.
I may be wrong but i can;t see that happening either.
I was just thinking that Sandaza must be rubbing his hands in glee.
He has a CEO who publicly states that if any employee had made the racist comment he had against another employee that it wasn’t acceptable and that an investigation would be carried out with appropriate disciplinary consequences.
The Company Board haven’t investigated but accepted the CEO apology and declared it a personal matter with nothing to do with the company. Even if Ahmad doesn’t wish to make a complaint about racism, AT THIS TIME, the employer has a duty to act and protect him and other employees no matter if they are too scared to act themselves. I might be missing something here but I doubt if Sandaza’s lawyer or players union rep will miss it.
And that’s followed by major shareholder and football manger McCoist, who is also listed as a ‘key employee’ in the AIM Prospectus, publicly stating the fans need transparency which seems to suggest he doesn’t believe Green and the team captain publicly spouts the same message.
I actually think that these statement s are far more injurious to Rangers than anything Sandaza said and it must be remembered he doesn’t have English as a first language.
So I think Sandaza will be having a chunk of the warchest no problem
wottpi says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:08
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:03
He also told Scotland Tonight a wee while back that as the fans didn’t take up their full allocation of shares he would offer them back to the institutions and if they didn’t take them he would buy them himself.
I may be wrong but i can;t see that happening either.
===================================================
Well 28 were born this morning!
wottpi says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:06
—————
Notice the youtube link to Singapore and Offshore banking.
————–
Missed that one – looks like plenty more fun to be had this week.
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:03
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 11:51
I was wondering if anyone remembers Green stating on TV or tape recently
about the shareholders being public knowledge as well as the price they paid. This is a mixture of nonsense and half-truth but I would like to pin his exact quote down if anyone remembers where it appeared I would appreciate it.
————————————-
He said it in middle of the recent STV interview. But then he also claimed to have an email the interviewer could see…..
———————————————————————————————————————-
Ta madbhoy!
I was sure it was there and picked through it so must have missed it – I think I’ll have lunch to fortify myself before listening to the whole lot 🙂
Are you sure Green didn’t claim he could see the email – although he didn’t state whether it was on Cloud 9 or just in his mind’s eye 🙂
And this is only Monday – all the business wire services are running with the story – first time a lot of people in the City will have been alerted to the trouble at mill – pressure will grow.
wottpi says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:00
0 0 Rate This
Phil Mac teasing again
Phil MacGiollaBhain @Pmacgiollabhain
I mean, after last week, what could possible go wrong this week?
Maybe we’ll know after-hmmm-after Wednesday.
Yeah, I’ll go with Wednesday!
————————————————————–
You might want to pre-order your Scottish Sun for Wednesday 😮
Rangers International
62.00p
-3.50p (-5.34%)
Well looks as though there is no appetite for waiting till the outcome of what appears to have been adjudged a ‘whitewash’.
This could get very messy today!
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:22
Aye, but I still feel more than a bit sorry for the ordinary punters who simply wanted to help their club, (all other issues with these fans aside)
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:27
0 0 Rate This
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:22
Aye, but I still feel more than a bit sorry for the ordinary punters who simply wanted to help their club, (all other issues with these fans aside)
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they still have a club (for now)
they have framed their shares and put them up on the mantle piece, they don’t care what the price is….they have a club in blue playing football at Ibrox…that’s all they want, they are happy enough.
Better still, when it is milked, you can be sure TRFC Ltd will be sold as a going concern to someone – like the Blue Knights (even if it is only for £1) they will then rent Ibrox back from Whyte/Green/Spivco
Now that would be a dilemma for a supporter – pay to watch your team in the stadium owned by the man who totally fleeced you.
Would they do it?
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:16
Remember it will all be about Thatcher’s Funeral on Wednesday and Thursday morning.
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:27
Aye, but I still feel more than a bit sorry for the ordinary punters who simply wanted to help their club, (all other issues with these fans aside)
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The ordinary punters don’t care what the share price is currently, they did not invest to make more or even to hold onto their existing monies. The only thing they expected in return was a continuation of their team, they got that. They are not in this for the money.
The institutional investors care because every decrease affects their return and they want to maximize that as much as possible, they are only in it for the money.
In my view, it is irrelevant to the fans what price the shares were, are or will be in the coming months. It is only relevant what the major shareholders are prepared to do in order to protect that investment, that is where “emotional investment” will be tested and in my opinion, they will fall below the pass mark.
People might be forgetting that there are No shares in the football club,the shares are in the holding Co. Also if my memory serves,it was stated in the prospectus that any monies raised could be used for any purpose that the board ( Yorkie ) decided.
Also, following on from my earlier post on league reconstruction…I think the bottom 18 is just a mess/lazy thinking/shambles – basically, it’s an afterthought.
if they do go for 12-12-18, i think some thought needs to be made about making the bottom league more interesting.
I’d like to see it split on a regional basis – to minimise travel/costs/hassle to fans and clubs alike.
As well as automatic promotion for the winners of each league into the bottom 12, there could be a playoff involving each league runner up and the 3rd/4th bottom teams of the 2nd 12. – giving the possibility of 3 up/down each year – and keeping a rocket under the arse at the bottom of the 2nd 12 league
Similarly, these regional leagues could then have relegation to the “non league” regional set up we have – Highland League/East/west leagues
That would give us a pyramid system encouraging the better non league clubs to come into “senior” football and allow the bottom feeders to find their level.
Further down the road, i’d try and bring the juniors into this set up as well.
But, i just don’t see why the league of 18 is in anyway an attractive proposition.
Today 12:45
TOnyBlunt
I’m making money on this
61.50
No Opinion
I bought in at the IOP of 70p I sold when they went up slightly thus gaining a quick profit. I’m waiting on it bottoming out when I’ll buy again and then sell when they rise a little – this is the gambling part of being a day trader. But other than buying and selling shares I have been betting on the price falling, as it was bound to do. I didn’t think it would fall as much as it has but no matter I’ve made a tidy profit on the shares of Rangers already and I’ll make a lot lot more before they finally stop trading – whatever causes that to happen! Got to say Charles Green has been a revelation for us day traders who bet on falling share prices makes me wonder if he doesn’t have someone betting on the falling price for him. Yes it’s against stock market rules but you’re only guilty if you get caught!
——————————————————————-
Now there’s an idea.
A bit OT, but indulge me…
The passing of Mrs Thatcher brings back some memories of my school days and my awareness of the general opinion of her at the time. I go back to those days since they seem to be my earliest memories of any kind of political views. The various impacts her policies seemed to have more and more knock on effects as time has passed. The right to buy policy may have played its part in the financial services sector difficulties of recent years. Whatever may be the case, its clear to me that her policies were in no way long term, or had long term considerations in mind.
I also wonder if she may have played her part in the downfall of Rangers.
I remember numerous rafts of industrial action by teachers, usefully explained at the time by one of my 1st yr teachers, who was also a union rep. Action included, amongst the range of industrial activities/measure open to unions at the time, a work to rule. This meant the end of extra-curricular activities, including running a school team and taking the time to train the boys to compete. I was never expectant of being good enough to play in the School team, but was always hopeful. IMO the end of school football had the effect, a few years later and beyond, of a dearth of homegrown talent in the ranks of footballers available to the SFA clubs.
This, in turn may have played its part in the decision of many clubs in seeking to pay inflated wages to imported European players (obviously a number of other factors also affected this – inc. Bosman, the English clubs’ Euro ban, etc.), which seemed to quickly progress from the exception to the rule, and still seems pretty much the case now, although hopefully change is coming.
Re Rangers – they continued to drive towards always winning the SPL. Second place was a failure. Paying inflated wages to a number of foreign players in their ranks placed pressure on Rangers’ finances at the top of the Scottish Game, beyond when it was necessary to rein in spending. I’m thinking about roughly the end of 9IAR, and the Advocaat era – I guess if Rangers had got a grip on spending then, they would still be here today.
So, Thatcher played her part, via a ripple effect of her domestic economic policies, in the end of the Rangers as we knew it.
I know it’s the SFA/SPL we’re talking about but if RIFC(plc) go belly -upthen surely a lot of peoples positions must become untenable?
The folk discussing reconstruction this week should surely take recent developments into consideration.
So, not long now until the Sevco share price drops to the same as the Celtic share price.
now, ordinarily the share price movements wouldn’t bother me in the slightest, but could it prove to be another “sly kick” at the sevconians when the share prices meet?
just another bad news day for the car crash that is Sevco
Rangers International
61p.00
-4.50p (-6.87%)
No sign of stopping – shorters in control I wonder?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:57
1 0 Rate This
So, not long now until the Sevco share price drops to the same as the Celtic share price.
now, ordinarily the share price movements wouldn’t bother me in the slightest, but could it prove to be another “sly kick” at the sevconians when the share prices meet?
just another bad news day for the car crash that is Sevco
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It’ll be the only time the two clubs meet 😀
torrejohnbhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:54
1 0 Rate This
I know it’s the SFA/SPL we’re talking about but if RIFC(plc) go belly -upthen surely a lot of peoples positions must become untenable?
The folk discussing reconstruction this week should surely take recent developments into consideration.
———————–
the fate of Sevco is not something that should be considered when planning the future of the game – and that applies to any 1 club.
we need to make it attractive and entertaining, it needs to be run within it’s financial constraints, the rules need to be fair and evenly applied.
we are top heavy with governing bodies, lacking facilities, leadership, direction, finance.
That 1 club is a basketcase is neither here nor there, if they go down, they go down on their own – the only consideration given to that club is that rules and measures should be put in place to prevent it. Oh wait, they had rules, but chose to ignore them!
Well, hell mend them.
Maybe next time, they’ll not be so bold.
Ecobhoy,
“Rangers International
61p.00
-4.50p (-6.87%)
No sign of stopping – shorters in control I wonder?”
I would expect some sort of recovery at the end of trading today – just a little. It seems to have been happening that way on other days when the price has dropped. A ‘no recovery’ day would be notable.
But, generally, very small volumes are being traded here…
Carl31 (@C4rl31) says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 13:13
Ecobhoy,
“Rangers International
61p.00
-4.50p (-6.87%)
No sign of stopping – shorters in control I wonder?”
I would expect some sort of recovery at the end of trading today – just a little. It seems to have been happening that way on other days when the price has dropped. A ‘no recovery’ day would be notable.
But, generally, very small volumes are being traded here…
==========================================
If very small volumes can drive the share price down that quick then you will need a Davey lamp to find the price if a large volume is sold.
Yes, it will be the old ‘good day to bury bad news’ ploy used by the SFA during the Olympic Opening Ceremony. Although, given the ‘popularity’ of Thatch in Scotland, it might not work as well as some would hope.
My understanding of how everyone on here expects Green etc to make a profit (apart from his excessive salary/bous/share ownership) is by selling off RFC* as a separate entity and retaining the properties (in RIFC?) to rent out to the new owners for as long as he wants to hold them (providing CW doesn’t get them back, of course).
I’ve seen lots of other posts about how costly it is to own the properties, including expected maintenance, asbestos problems etc? I’m assuming that if he owns the properties, he will still be responsible for these costs.
Does anyone have even a guesstimate as to what those ongoing property and maintenance costs might be going forward? Also, with that base cost in mind, how much might he (or CW) be looking to charge the new RFC* (Third Rangers) to give an acceptable profit?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 13:10
I think you’re missing one crucial aspect – there’ll always be a Rangers (with the emphasis on the non specific ‘a’).
We all know that even if the current incarnation goes breasts skyward, that the SFA/SPL/SFL (or whatever organisation will oversee events) will ensure that ‘a’ Rangers will be present somewhere in the league set up. Boldness doesn’t come into it. They can’t see beyond the supposed money that ‘a’ Rangers bring to Scottish football.
The authorities just don’t get it. It isn’t a lack of league construction, or a lack of ‘a’ Rangers in the top flight that’s killing the game – it’s the image they create of buffoons not knowing what they are doing that’s scaring off any sort of decent investment. That is what is critically damaging Scottish football, and no amount of messing around with league numbers and carving up of the diminishing, meagre (and, some might say, under-valued) income from Sky is going to change that.
The games at the weekend were brilliant. It’s clearly not the football itself that needs fixing (or at least, it’s not that far away). It’s all the other rubbish that goes around it’s orbit that’s causing the problems.
nawlite – you might want to read this if you havne’t seen it before from 26th October 2012
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/?p=10730 (go on, click the link and give them a hit!)
I have a Heads of Terms document for the sale and leaseback of Ibrox, Murray Park and the Albion Car Park.
The purchase price for all three assets is £7.285m. In addition to this there is a £6.9m loan provision with 15% interest payable monthly (£985.5k annually). Initial rent for all three properties is £1.8m. The 20-year lease provides for upwards-only reviews every five years by either 2% p.a. or RPI, whatever is greater (so assuming RPI is less than 2% each year, after five years, rent would be £1.987m).
Annual costs for rent and interest would be £2.835m. Current season ticket sales are reported to be approximately 36,000 with a standard adult price of £286, income net of vat will be around £8.5m.
Although the top line figure for both sale and loan is £13.835, “the initial payment will be less 3 years rent [£5.4m] to compensate for the lack of guarantee covering the rental payments”, so monies paid would be £8.435m as the first three years rent is deducted from the total.
Crucially, rent is to be securitised against ticket receipts and the new landlord is to be granted “first charge on the season tickets”, so, just as Craig Whyte planned with Rangers, Sports Direct FC would collect ticket money before passing it on to the security holder.
If the buyer attains planning permission for residential properties at Murray Park, a provision releases the seller from having to repay the £6.55m loan and cancels future interest payments. This speculative clause would release the club from punitive interest repayments but would require them to find a reasonably priced ash park to train on. Perhaps the Albion Car and Training Park.
“The tenant” will be able to buyback the stadium. In year one the price would be £10m (they would still owe the £6.55m loan). The set price increases by 12% p.a. for 10 years, so the year-10 price would be £27.7m. Thereafter “price will revert to Market Value but will not be less than £20m”. The market value of Celtic Park is around £50m. There is no buyback provision for Murray Park or the Albion Car Park.
The deal is on the table but will not be signed before the share issue, or if “the tenant” wins the Euromillions Jackpot (that’s not a euphemism for Champions League money, I mean the actual lottery), or finds some magic beans.
Blackthorne now complaining about Mr Green
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/04/15/rangers-new-sponsor-blackthorn-cider-latest-complain-club-over-charles-green-racist
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/04/15/rangers-new-sponsor-blackthorn-cider-latest-complain-club-over-charles-green-racist
Rangers’ new sponsor Blackthorn Cider latest to complain to club over Charles Green racist comments
The brand has confirmed to The Drum that it has spoken to the club in response to comments made by Green in an interview last week, which also drew complaints from its current sponsor, and C&C stablemate, Tennent’s Lager.
Paulo Mortarotti, managing director at Shepton Mallet Cider Mill, said: “Blackthorn Cider does not wish to have any association with racist remarks such as this. It’s an issue we take very seriously and this has been relayed to the club.”
Blackthorn Cider announced in March that it would take over from Tennent’s as the shirt sponsors of the Scottish Third Division champions for next season.
nawlite says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 13:21
Does anyone have even a guesstimate as to what those ongoing property and maintenance costs might be going forward? Also, with that base cost in mind, how much might he (or CW) be looking to charge the new RFC* (Third Rangers) to give an acceptable profit?
========================
RIFC will retain the properties, TRFC will be sold or given to some bunch of knights, blue, new, orange, bumbee tartan, take your pick. Ibrox will then be leased back to TRFC by RIFC on terms that include the tenant, that’s TRFC, being responsible for all repairs, maintenance, etc. It’s called a full tenant’s repairing lease in England, and is normal with commercial property. It may well be that such a lease is already in place, and TRFC owe RIFC a fortune in unpaid rent.
Off to a good start with the next seasons sponsors
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/04/15/rangers-new-sponsor-blackthorn-cider-latest-complain-club-over-charles-green-racist
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:40
I would agree that for fans, buying shares is an emotional rather than a financial investment. However, I think there is also a belief, that if times get rough, the shares represent an asset that they can get at least something for.
In this case, they may well go the same way as those Tsarist railway company shares, that the chap bought up to decorate his bathroom, (lovely engravings)
And so it begins…..
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 3m
Spl vote defeated”
SPL fails to vote through 12-12-18
Scottish Premier League clubs have failed to vote through a new 12-12-18 model for Scottish football.
An 11-1 club majority was required for the plan to progress to a Scottish Football League club vote scheduled for Friday.
However, both St Mirren and Ross County voted against the proposal at Hampden on Monday.
It is likely the current make-up of 12-10-10-10 will continue for the next campaign.
From “the Drum” media website:
Rangers’ new sponsor Blackthorn Cider latest to complain to club over Charles Green racist comments
Rangers’ new sponsor Blackthorn Cider latest to complain to club overRangers’ new sponsor Blackthorn Cider has complained to the club following racist remarks made by chairman Charles Green.
The brand has confirmed to The Drum that it has spoken to the club in response to comments made by Green in an interview last week, which also drew complaints from its current sponsor, and C&C stablemate, Tennent’s Lager.
Paulo Mortarotti, managing director at Shepton Mallet Cider Mill, said: “Blackthorn Cider does not wish to have any association with racist remarks such as this. It’s an issue we take very seriously and this has been relayed to the club.”
Blackthorn Cider announced in March that it would take over from Tennent’s as the shirt sponsors of the Scottish Third Division champions for next season.
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2013/04/15/rangers-new-sponsor-blackthorn-cider-latest-complain-club-over-charles-green-racist
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Doncaster should resign.
Then we can focus on the others who signed the 5 way agreement.
Scottish Football will be better off without them.
Damn but there’s some newshounds on here… >(
Now the serious kicking off begins. Invitation only SPL2?
Ecobhoy, “No sign of stopping – shorters in control I wonder?”
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDReviews33/a%20trading%20places%20blu-ray/21_TradingPlaces_BD.jpg
Tic 6709 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 12:44
People might be forgetting that there are No shares in the football club,the shares are in the holding Co. Also if my memory serves,it was stated in the prospectus that any monies raised could be used for any purpose that the board ( Yorkie ) decided.
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Were the shares not actually for the holding company of the holding company, given that the Club itself is ethereal? .
I can’t believe that brazen phoenix statement in the AIM statement today. If only that there was ANYONE in a position to be seriously listened to by AIM to challenge the adoption by Sevco of a soon to be liquidated business’ history and trading. Would they get away with this if it were Wooloworths? Unbelievable.
For the fanbase, the only people with the club’s best interests at heart to wield any real power… don’t buy season tickets.
Tell the board you are “happy to pay at the gate” next season and that they will have to plan and budget on that basis.
Clearly tell them that everyone must accept the financial reality that the continuation of an obvious unsustainable football business model is just insanity. You all have to stop doing exactly the same thing time after time and expecting a different outcome.
Past and present “Moonbeam Peddlers” throughout your club believe it’s just too damn easy to stick their hands in your pockets…are you really happy for it to continue ” ad nauseam “.
*Woolworths of course, not Wooloworths! Mind you the names are so similar it might just work! Spivs use that similar name trick all the time.
both St Mirren and Ross County voted against the proposal at Hampden on Monday.
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Two clubs who listened to their fans.
Well done.
Message sent but will the SFA / SPL/ SFL listen to it? hmmm.
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:13
Now the serious kicking off begins. Invitation only SPL2?
==============================================
Who knows but there is NO chance of it going into place before the start of next season (less than 3 months away, don’t forget).
“The Rangers” will surely be happy now knowing that this season wasn’t a waste of time after all.
[like I give a shite…]
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 2m
Hearts chief exec David Southern says compromise was offered in meeting. Celtic tried to push it over line by taking league recon out of … 11-1 protected category in terms of voting. DS says when that didn’t change minds of those who voted against, it became apparent that … .issue was a smokescreen and not real reason for opposition.”
If the above is correct, then fair play to Celtic
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:13
Now the serious kicking off begins. Invitation only SPL2?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Maybe, but then the ‘invitees’ would have to give 2 years notice to the SFL or stump up a wad of cash to compensate the remaining teams. Are any of them really in a position to do that?
cowanpete says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:22
1 2 Rate This
both St Mirren and Ross County voted against the proposal at Hampden on Monday.
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Two clubs who listened to their fans.
Well done.
Message sent but will the SFA / SPL/ SFL listen to it? hmmm
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Eh? Message sent – what message?
There is now no prospect of any change in the foreseeable future – St. Mirren and Ross County have cut off their noses to spite their faces here – when either or both go down – inevitable at some point – then they will be squealing about the impossibility of life outside the SPL and the “cliff face” of financial collapse relegation creates.
They have negotiated nothing for the “fans” – no bigger league , no return to three o’clock kick offs, no fairer voting , no fairer distribution of cash – to turn down something significant but less than desired and to walk away subsequently with nothing is just plain idiocy as far as I can see!
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:29
So it’s all a smokescreen for SPL2 by invitation only. Sporting integrity? What a joke! What a surprise. No doubt Green’s gold edged invite is in the post as we speak. Who’d have thought it? Mind you, TRFC will clearly refuse, they’re too dignified to accept. Aren’t they?
Can anyone tell me why we just couldn’t:
1.Still have one governing body
2.Have play-offs
3.Distribute cash more evenly?
greenockjack says: Sunday, April 14, 2013 at 21:57
As it would be for St.Mirren to take advantage of the 11-1 majority rule, whilst citing the same as the main reason to vote No.
====================
Easyjambo
I disagree. For St Mirren it is a red line issue. To vote yes would mean a lock-in for at least another 3 years of 11-1 voting.
If the other SPL clubs are so keen for the reconstruction to proceed then it wouldn’t be too much for them to concede 10-2 or 9-3 voting as a compromise ……. or would it?
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It would appear as your own CEO, David Southern has a different view after todays meeting.
iceman63 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:33
1 0 Rate This
cowanpete says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:22
1 2 Rate This
both St Mirren and Ross County voted against the proposal at Hampden on Monday.
==================================================================
Two clubs who listened to their fans.
Well done.
Message sent but will the SFA / SPL/ SFL listen to it? hmmm
_____________________________________________________________
Eh? Message sent – what message?
There is now no prospect of any change in the foreseeable future – St. Mirren and Ross County have cut off their noses to spite their faces here – when either or both go down – inevitable at some point – then they will be squealing about the impossibility of life outside the SPL and the “cliff face” of financial collapse relegation creates.
They have negotiated nothing for the “fans” – no bigger league , no return to three o’clock kick offs, no fairer voting , no fairer distribution of cash – to turn down something significant but less than desired and to walk away subsequently with nothing is just plain idiocy as far as I can see!
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they even rejected chance to break 11-1 voting structure – Hypocrites have been found out…so question is, what have they been promised by CG for the vote? (and i direct that at Gilmour only)
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:29
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 2m
Hearts chief exec David Southern says compromise was offered in meeting. Celtic tried to push it over line by taking league recon out of … 11-1 protected category in terms of voting. DS says when that didn’t change minds of those who voted against, it became apparent that … .issue was a smokescreen and not real reason for opposition.”
If the above is correct, then fair play to Celtic
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Fair play indeed, but if they took the decision out of the protected category then how come 10-2 is not voting in favour? Was it, in fact, that a ‘future’ vote within the new structure would not be in the 11-1 category? So not really much of a compromise at all.
why was CG at ST Mirrens ground a few weeks ago and did St Mirren change their stance before or after he visited ?
Sevco sites in meltdown over their new hero Stuart Gilmour.
I wonder why that is?
scottc says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:37
I think that is what they meant, – that in future league recon matters would not be subject to the 11-1 rule. Not sure if it would have been possible to have applied that today, possibly by suspending standing orders or some such, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if that required an 11-1 threshold……
Sheelagh McLaren @sheelaghmclaren 5m
Stewart Milne said they’d offered to change voting structure on reconstruction to 9-3 for future votes but St Mirren couldn’t be persuaded.
what’s to stop the remaining spl clubs and the sfl clubs going ahead and creating a new body. Surely if both organisations are in agreement it can happen. Ross and St Mirren can ponder their decision today whilst the rest progress.
chipsandblog says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:45
Aye, and there’s even a name for it, let me see someone mentioned a few minutes ago, oh yes that was it, SPL2
That the issues about the 11-1 voting structure weren´t settled prior to this meeting/vote is a further damming indictment on those involved.
Scottish football truly is a leaderless circus that goes round in ever decreasing circles towards a dark place.
scottc says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:37
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scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:29
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 2m
Hearts chief exec David Southern says compromise was offered in meeting. Celtic tried to push it over line by taking league recon out of … 11-1 protected category in terms of voting. DS says when that didn’t change minds of those who voted against, it became apparent that … .issue was a smokescreen and not real reason for opposition.”
If the above is correct, then fair play to Celtic
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fair play indeed, but if they took the decision out of the protected category then how come 10-2 is not voting in favour? Was it, in fact, that a ‘future’ vote within the new structure would not be in the 11-1 category? So not really much of a compromise at all.
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Presumably because St Mirren and Ross county refused to remove reconstruction from the protected voting category. I would guess!!!!!!
Gilmour is up to something. I suspect it is not good news if you are a Buddy – he is clearly part of some kind of Rangers 3 plan when the TRFC licence has to be withdrawn and the ownership of Ibrox reverts to Whyte – expect an asset sale or long term lease to “Real Rangers” men abandoning the history – regrettably because of the antics of bogeymen Green and Whyte ( and of course their names should have given it all away) – at least until the SFA find a means to allow its transfer – for a fiver possibly – and shifting and renaming Saint Mirren as “The Eternal Glasgow Rangers – Then, Now, Forever”
What I find really amusing about all this league reconstruction business is the reaction of Stewart Milne today… With the SPL losing the vote 10-2, if changes proposed last October had been voted through, today’s vote would only have needed a 9-3 majority, and thus, would have passed.
Of course, Aberdeen played no part, in joining with Celtic, to block this vote did they? Oh, wait…
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/moves-to-change-spl-voting-structure-1393897
I’m sorry – the fans didnt want this. If Scottish football is to lose sponsors and the tv deal then the only ones to blame are the guys running the game – the spl and the sfa, for not properly administering it and marketing it. Any attempt to shoehorn the soon to be zombies zombies back into the spl set up will see a true armageddon.
Bampots – be on your guard.
SPL 2 won’t happen – Celtic and Aberdeen and probably some others know that any inviting of deid club/ spiv edition/ whatever WATP incarnation emerges and chooses to call itself up the leagues will cause a meltdown amongst their fans of epic proportions.
Celtic, backed by Aberdeen, will simply walk away from any more negotiating – PL wasn’t bluffing – it was either this plan or nowt – and nowt it is.
So the 11-1 voting system was not the real reason St Mirren voted no to reconstruction today. Why did Gilmour LIE. Why did he say he was listening to the Saints fans when he was’nt? Looks like the rumours of Charles Green involvement were true.
http://news.stv.tv/north/221506-hundreds-of-pounds-worth-of-cowboy-costumes-stolen-in-fraserburgh/
. . .could it have been charles green?
. . . Naw, he’s already got a “cowboy outfit” !
A fairly large, 30k share transaction wen through earlier, this was a delayed notification trade. After coming across this type of transaction, in here actually, I asked some spivs, I mean, upstanding Edinburgh stockbroker types, (yes yes an oxymoron) about it. The consensus was that it was all perfectly kosher, except possibly where the traded volumes are low, in that case it was felt that the OK trades could have a contrary effect on the SP, and actually prevent major price movements from developing.
Perhaps St. Mirren and Ross County voted against reconstruction as it stands simply because they think it’s a bad idea?
Rather fanciful thought, I know.
Was there not a recent survey of fans where the majority were in favour of a larger top division? If so, surely those 2 teams were listening to the fans?
On my own here but I think the 11-1 on key matters is totally justified as each club has its own interests as well as those of the collective body to support – indeed I would actually favour 12 – 0! each club as a member should be able to protect its own interests and all progress should be negotiated to full consensus – just my view!
Stuart Milne scathing in his words on St Mirren.
Hinting at underhand dealings by them
Too much guesswork going on here. From what I can deduce, on the face of it, Ross County took the views of their fans on board, and St Mirren made their position clear a couple of months ago.
I don’t get why many of us are reading anything regarding Green being in Paisley a few weeks back into the situation. Green is a trouble maker and spiv, and would enjoy thinking he is causing divisions between fans of various clubs. Ignore Green in this situation.
It would have been good if the spl board themselves had previously issued a document to illustrate what was being voted upon: instead we have finger pointing and disunity.
I am not sure what to make of this decision as I was neither for it nor against it, I cannot say if St. Mirren or Ross County has been foolish or brave.
I like the idea of more competition at various stages of the league but I hate splits.
I like the idea of more money filtering down but don’t see how that cannot be achieved in any league setup.
I like the idea of one footballing committee running all aspects of the sport in Scotland and again, I don’t see why that cannot be done within the present setup.
I am however concerned with the motivation of the 2 clubs who objected, just as I always am when I see the majority voting for something and the minority against. That doesn’t always mean there is something wrong but what do these 2 know that the others don’t?
Or… what do the 10 know that the other 2 don’t?
If the main reason for objecting was the 11-1 voting system and therefore it was then agreed to change this but they still objected, then I will have to wait to hear the explanation before making judgments.
I am still not sure why this was being rushed through so quickly, that is where my real concerns lie, not who voted yes/no.
Once again I ask for a journalist, just one, to ask this to the relevant people:
1. Why does this change have to happen this summer?
2. Why can we not introduce one football body without league change?
3. Why can we not filter more money down without league change?
4. Why can we not agree to a 16 top league with a 3-5 year notice to allow time to adjust?
I have to say, I care more about the lack of questioning than I do about the actual reconstruction. There is no logical reason that not one single journalist (to my knowledge) has put these direct questions to the leaders of our game, if they did and were refused an answer then please tell us, that is your job!
Iceman
If the St.Mirren “agenda” is to sell/lease is to “Real Rangers Men”, why would Green have supposedly been holding talks with Gilmour on the matter recently ? (when seen attending an SPL game at New St.Mirren Park)
61patrick says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:41
Sevco sites in meltdown over their new hero Stuart Gilmour.
I wonder why that is?
………………………………………………..
Same reason this site’s in meltdown over their new anti-hero, Stewart Gilmour: he (and McGregor) didn’t lie down to the bullies in the playground, so they’ll portray that to fit in with their distorted world view.
Despite MSM depicting this as being all about an 11-1 vote, SG argued clearly that it was all about laying down credible enforceable financial rules and constraints. (I thought that was a “good thing” on here?).
So it’s small wonder that those most vociferous about Saints refusal to kow-tow would feature the bosses of the Dons and Hearts – not their fans, who (like the Buddies’ fans listened to by SG) did not want the 888 set-up.
What has most amazed me by the responses on this forum is the new-found belief that a plan devised by Scottish football’s three Official stooges could be swallowed hook, line etc..
Tho I did note PL’s plea for the plan to go through at the w/e, when he suggested that 130 Dingwall fans do not compare to a missing 9000 empty Parkhead seats… As if any wee diddy club should not discount HIS fabase to help ensure the financial chasm between us and Youse grows even wider.
Most (wee diddy club) fans seem pleased by the outcome.
I believe I am. 🙂
Next Time Gilmour bangs on about how St Mirren are living within their means, somebody in the MSM should ask him why in that case they have lost £300,000 a year for the last 3 years.
Their cash in the bank at the last set of accounts was just about enough to 2 weeks overheads, and their current wages to turnover ratio is nearly 71%
This was a club who were awarded a government grant of £1.766 million in 2008. Without Scottish taxpayers money where would this “well run ” club be sitting today
I don’t claim to know why they voted against, but when Gilmour said it was because of 11-1 , I said at the time that was a smokescreen , and that is the word coming from everyone who was at the meeting who has commented today
For a club who would not be able to exist in its current form without the huge money given to them by Scottish taxpayers, they were unwilling to extend a helping hand to those in desperate need within Scottish football.