Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
SFL statement
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/news/article/press-statement-16/#.UWwJs0NKLho.twitter
greenockjack says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:48
6 0 Rate This
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I think the point is that there was no objection the last time the clubs met to discuss this – so they went away thinking everyone had reached a compromise package – then St Mirren decided they were against the proposals.
So when the meeting was convened it sounds like a proposal to change 11-1 to appease the dissenters was offered but then rejected.
So if St Mirren’s objection isn’t actually to the 11-1 majority requirement as previously stated what was their objection? They still don’t seem to have offered any explanation.
stevensanph says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 14:56
2 0 Rate This
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Its ironic as others have said.
But I’d still love to know what St Mirrens and Ross County’s explanation is? After all the problem they raised last week appears to have been removed from the proposal but they still would not vote yes.
As far as I am aware neither club has made a stand on the principle that fans don’t want a 12-12-18 structure (which if they had I would support them with) – instead some other interest seems to be at play.
Could it be they want to split gate receipts after all and have sacrificed a faltering step forward for our game because they couldn’t get their own way in this matter (or get a voting system through that would give them the power to push a gate fees split through)?
bill1903 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:03
Stuart Milne scathing in his words on St Mirren.
Hinting at underhand dealings by them
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Stuart Milne only saying what most people including some St Mirren fans who just textme.
They were lead to believe the 11-1 vote was the deal breaker,
They are now going to ask SG ,why he voted the way he did and if Charles Green had any influence on him.
Interesting time ahead for Mr Gilmour.
Correct.
St.Mirren voiced concerns in January. Ross County listened to their fans. A week ago St.Mirren issued a statement with MANY reasons for saying no.
No real change to 11-1 was offered today – just to move it to 9-3 for ‘future’ reconstruction votes. Not for full voting powers.
At the end of the day, if Aberdeen were so desperate for reconstruction to happen, why did Milne veto the change to the 11-1 back in October?
As for Milne and his rant against St.Mirren- it is almost like listening to Doncaster talk about Armageddon. I think we can all agree that another season of armageddon like this one will be fantastic…
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:03
Great post, Madbhoy, I too would like to know- what’s the rush? Most of what was proposed today could be done right now, by concensus, and the leagues then reconstructed with a season’s notice. Why not? I think I know what the rush is, and it’s to do with the needs of one club and one club only- but we’ll see.
I find it Ironic that in years gone by the accusation made by clubs was that the voting structure (11-1) was geared towards Celtic and Rangers (now deceased) to control all matters in their favour?
Does that now mean that the (11-1) voting structure is geared towards St. Mirren and Ross County to control all matters in their favour?
61patrick says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:11
Stuart Milne only saying what most people including some St Mirren fans who just textme.
They were lead to believe the 11-1 vote was the deal breaker,
They are now going to ask SG ,why he voted the way he did and if Charles Green had any influence on him.
Interesting time ahead for Mr Gilmour.
…………………………………..
From my reading of b+w army and p+b and talking to other Buddies, the above post is nonsense. I know of not one Buddie who felt SG was doing the wrong thing. Not one.
I’m afraid that any proposal to make fundamental changes to the structure of Scottish football for next season was simply wrong.
You cannot change the outcome of a tournament during that tournament that is just unfair. Make changes, but make them with a clear season’s break. Then people know what they are getting into and can plan accordingly.
Whether I agree with 12-12-18 or not, to do it for next season was wrong. If they try to do an SPL2 that will be wrong as well, for the same reasons.
Did no one see Stewart Gilmour’s interview during the parade of the cup through Paisley? The man clearly lives and breathes St Mirren. I don’t believe this conspiracy nonsense about Green. I for one am relieved we have avoided a potential farcical set up, we now have to be on our guard and ensure there is no SPL2.
theglen2012 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:02
5 2 Rate This
Perhaps St. Mirren and Ross County voted against reconstruction as it stands simply because they think it’s a bad idea?
Rather fanciful thought, I know.
Was there not a recent survey of fans where the majority were in favour of a larger top division? If so, surely those 2 teams were listening to the fans?
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It would be nice to think this was why they voted as they did.
In which case why not say so and so from the start.
If I was Gilmour or McGregor I’d have trumpeted the fact I was listening to my fans and publicly ask all clubs to do the same.
Only they didn’t, did they?
paulmac2 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:13
I think they are all now realising how idiotic that voting system was. It was even more idiotic not to change it when given the chance last year.
Interesting that a few people have asked ‘whats the rush’ in the last few minutes here… that was another main point in St.Mirrens statement last week…
So, over to you SPL? What was the rush?
I wonder which way those two clubs will vote for inviting Sevco into spl2? I doubt it would be no on that one.
vforvernacular says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:17
0 0 Rate This
theglen2012 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:02
5 2 Rate This
Perhaps St. Mirren and Ross County voted against reconstruction as it stands simply because they think it’s a bad idea?
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It would be nice to think this was why they voted as they did.
In which case why not say so and so from the start.
If I was Gilmour or McGregor I’d have trumpeted the fact I was listening to my fans and publicly ask all clubs to do the same.
Only they didn’t, did they?
…………………………………………
Er….. They did. At least I know SG did.
It may not be relevant, but I never read the Scottish newspapers.
And yet, I knew what SG’s/St Mirren’s position was.
From what I’ve understood, the compromise proposed only involved “restructuring” to no longer have “reserved matter” status.
So for St Mirren to have voted yes, would have meant that future reconstruction proposals would require a 9-3 vote. Now remember that the current proposal has a 3 year lock-in as part of the package, so there would be no reconstruction votes for at least 3 years anyway.
Now look at what wasn’t offered as a compromise, basically everything relating to finance. Agreement to commercial contracts, sponsorship, TV, Radio or online deals, limitations on games covered at any ground, financial distribution, gate receipts etc.
Now I ask those clubs, why they were willing to compromise on league reconstruction votes, but not on commercial matters.
vforvernacular says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:17
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If I was Gilmour or McGregor I’d have trumpeted the fact I was listening to my fans and publicly ask all clubs to do the same.
Only they didn’t, did they?
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I have no idea what they said or didn’t say – I don’t follow either of those teams – I would hope that they did right by their fans though. Certainly some of those fans on here seem to think that they did.
fishnish says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:07
2 3 Rate This
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Not too sure how I actually feel about this development tbh. I suppose I’ll need to see what happens now before I can judge.
However I have a horrible feeling that nothing will happen now and that is the end of the matter – no more reconstruction discussions.
And while I really wasn’t for this 12-12 nonsense my biggest fear was maintaining the status quo which has been a disaster for 10-20 years IMO.
On that basis, 12-12-18 along with 1 league body, pyramid system, better distribution of cash etc etc seemed like at least it was a beginning. Something that could be revisited shortly and with less complicated negotiations going forward.
I don’t see how any club can come out of this winners but certainly SFL1 clubs must be gutted as they seem to be the ones most in need of rapid change. I really feel sorry for them.
vforvernacular says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:24
Sums up how I feel about. Still, this bunch may surprise us and actually go away and put together a carefully thought out change plan that actually meets all the requirements.
yeah, I don’t think so either
Until this morning the most important thing on the mind of St Mirren’s Mr Green was the voting structure, oops sorry, did I say Mr Green? I should have said Mr Gilmour, just seems they are so similar in saying one thing, while meaning something else entirely. If I were a St Mirren fan, I’d be very suspicious of anything Mr Gilmour says, especially if TRFC are in a position to benefit/lose as a result of his words/actions.
I don’t know about SG but Roy MacGregor listened to his fans.
Its not something many Chairmen of SPL clubs do very often.
But Roy and his team live in the same community as the fans and know them well enough.
So well done Roy. Well done the Ross County Board – not for what you voted for but because you asked and listened and then did what your fans asked you to do.
And there is comedic value in Stewart Milne being grumpy – especially since he was the one who blocked the very sensible changes proposed for the stupid SPL voting structure a few months ago.
And finally the sheer amateurism of the sell-through of Doncaster’s proposals is up there with the amateur powerpoint presentation to the clubs last year.
We are bereft of leadership.
Easyjambo
Were commercial matters the public reasons for their negativity ?
Going into the meeting it was the voting structure that St.Mirren highlighted as the “Big-Ticket Issue” for them.
IIRC, Ross County were more vocal on their concern for ST sales.
bit late, but an interesting and important development in the big picture
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2013/04/15/the-argument-that-tax-avoidance-is-legal-is-now-dead-and-gone-for-good-the-world-of-tax-abuse-changed-today-for-the-better/
greenockjack says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:29
Going into the meeting it was the voting structure that St.Mirren highlighted as the “Big-Ticket Issue” .
………………………….
It really wasn’t. No matter how often the propaganda is repeated.
It really wasn’t.
Just some thoughts…
The accusation is from CW, backed by doc evidence…
that the ownership of the assets that form the club Rangers FC (and essentially comprise the business of TRFC, which is the sole asset of RIFC) is not legitimate. This is because CW is a co-owner/sole owner/director of Sevco5088, the company that D&P had an exclusivity arrangement with, and did not give permission for the assets to be transferred to any company other than Sevco 5088. The assets ended up with Sevco Scotland Ltd (later name changed and is now TRFC). The asset transfer was done without the sayso of CW, which was, according to CW, not legitimate. At the least, this destabilises the current Rangers.
Potential outcomes ??
Outcome 1
The CW claims are found to be false under the law of the land. No change from the current scenario, other than a counterclaim by CG against CW for damages. Good luck with that.
Outcome 2
CW is paid a sum. This sum is to get him to go away and leave Rangers alone. The matter is settled and its as you were.
Outcome 3
The deal is undone, and Sevco 5088 owns the assets.
Football land impacts…
CW’s company becomes ‘Rangers’ via some new interpretation of the football rules re transfer of membership and licence. Rangers is then owned by an individual that has been determined to be not ‘fit and proper’. The FC is forced to separate off, in order to be deemed as legitimately Rangers FC by the SFA, to be owned and run by someone who is ‘fit and proper’. In that scenario, the assets (mainly Ibrox) are held by Sevco 5088 and leased back to the club.
Commercial land impacts …
Those involved in floating a company on the AIM market, based on that company owning assets which it was then deemed not to own, would/could be in a fair bit of mire – just possibly with a jail stretch on the horizon.
I end this string of guesses post with two questions.
Given that there are ongoing investigations into the legitimacy of the deal between CW and SDM that saw CW take ownership of RFC2012, what are the chances of the club ending up back with SDM?
Who thinks the best current course of action for BDO to sit tight and do nothing until this all plays out?
bobferris70 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:16
4 0 Rate This
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Agreed absolutely – I just don’t quite see how we arrive at Green being behind this myself.
Although I do think it is now quite unclear what the reasoning really is.
fishnish says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:22
2 1
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All credit to him if that was the case fishnish, absolutely.
It seemed to me from his “appearance” on Radio Scotland that he focused very much on the 11-1 vote and I’ve seen, read and heard nothing very different from him myself. Perhaps it was lost in translation?
For the record I don’t buy the “Green involvement” here at all – I just don’t see any evidence of conspiracy from Gilmour to help TRFC.
But I do find the behaviour of Gilmour and McGregor a bit inexplicable.
If as you say they stated the case was they were doing what their fans wanted why did they fail to get that message across much clearer?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21994873
for any sevco/the emperor’s new clothes fc fans looking in
As long as there is no fast track of the lot from the south-side I am content!
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 2m
Hearts chief exec David Southern says compromise was offered in meeting. Celtic tried to push it over line by taking league recon out of … 11-1 protected category in terms of voting. DS says when that didn’t change minds of those who voted against, it became apparent that … .issue was a smokescreen and not real reason for opposition.”
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So, from above, BBC are reporting that the 11-1 was removed for league reconstruction. St.Johnstone are also reporting:
http://www.perthstjohnstonefc.co.uk/newsitemsdetail.php?param=2479
“During the meeting, and in an effort to break the deadlock, an amendment to the League’s rules on voting was proposed. This major and progressive change would have allowed future league structure to be determined by a 9-3 vote, rather than the current 11-1 majority. Prior to the meeting, a number of clubs had suggested that voting change would enable league structure change to be voted through. Unfortunately, this amendment was also defeated in principle on a show of hands, with the same two clubs voting against.”
From this we can clearly see that the 9-3 was ONLY offered for league reconstruction votes. Remember, the league, if agreed, would be fixed for THREE years.
Now, lets go to St.Mirrens statement last week
http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463
On the third point made for why they were voting NO, they mention the 11-1
“In the proposed rules the voting structure is remaining, in all items that are of importance, an 11-1 vote. In our opinion, this is fundamentally wrong in any structure and is the principle reason why Scottish League Football has not been able to restructure prior to this time, a view St Mirren have held for some time.”
Note, the words ‘in all items that are of importance’.
Not just reconstruction, but everything. As can be seen from the bbc and St.Johnstone, no such concession was offered or talked about. All they offered was to change future league reconstruction votes to 9-3. No change for tv rights, rule changes, or, low and behold, votes of no confidence in the leaders.
St.Mirren made the points that
1) league system is flawed and has been tried before
2) fans dont want it and wont buy into it
3) restriction on change over next 3 years (fat lot of use 9-3 would have done there then!)
4)No new financial rules
5) u-21 rules,
6) season start dates
etc etc etc
This system was hated by fans. For people to come on here, after rumors from a celtic site said St.Mirren were in bed with Rangers, and claim this is a conspiracy to help Sevco, are doing this site a great disservice and giving amno to those that brand it a celtic site. The facts are no one wanted this league other than the clubs themselves.
Sevco will need a lot more than an invite to SPL2 to survive into next season anyway, and any attempt to do so from any of the SPL teams will result in less season tickets being sold than last year.
Stay alert bampots – but lets analyse the facts and not jump on the bandwagon. Leave that to the MSM
fishnish
It really wasn’t. No matter how often the propaganda is repeated.
It really wasn’t.
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If you don´t believe me, listen to Stuart Gilmour on the Sportsound 8/4/12.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot
Quite interesting to listen now, especially when the Dundee chairman calls him out.
finloch says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:29
2 0 Rate This
fishnish says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:33
0 2
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Although I don’t exactly agree with what you are arguing here I give you both thumbs up on sticking to the philosophy that clubs must listen to the fans (I agree 100%) and you obviously believe this is what SG and RM have done (I’m not so sure – would just like to have seen that made really clear instead of the foggyness).
Do you either of you think that McGregor and Gilmour have failed quite badly to get their message across clearly to everyone (not just their own fans) and to do so in plenty of time before the vote approached?
Charlie being at St. Mirren Park to me was nothing more than a photo opportunity…
Think about it…any discussions would have been arranged and held in private….away from glaring eyes….why be overt for all to see…thus promoting some secret agreement in return for….something as yet undisclosed?
That to me does not make sense…especially as Mr. Gilmour would have known it had all the right ingrediants to reflect badly on St. Mirren.
St.johnstone voted yes.
Go to http://www.weareperth.co.uk and find me ONE fan who agreed. None. Zip. Zilch.
By the logic I am reading tonight on here, that means if Steve Brown had actually listened to the fans he would also be a Sevco supporter?
have fun
http://www.scribd.com/doc/136013092/Ticketus-v-Whyte-Judgment-HC12F03282
greenockjack says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:38
If you don´t believe me, listen to Stuart Gilmour on the Sportsound 8/4/12.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/scotfoot
Quite interesting to listen now, especially when the Dundee chairman calls him out.
……………………………
The chairman of a club that has been in financial difficulties how often …? 😆
I heard most of it. SG dismantles the man.
Better you read the club’s statement on April 8, especially lines like,
“An area St Mirren are very uncomfortable with is the lock down on various financial rules. The credibility of Scottish Football has been tarnished badly in recent times by financial mismanagement and the time has come for strong financial rules to be in place.”
http://www.saintmirren.net/pages/?p=22463
Small wonder the shysters just want the latest quick fix to paper over the cracks.
Buddies are well aware that SG and co want out of their positions (which they have filled far better than we might have hoped, way back at the end of the 90s).
We wish them well: they ARE us.
We KNOW they won’t be tempted by the dark side, but we’ll keep an eye out. 🙂
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:50
have fun
http://www.scribd.com/doc/136013092/Ticketus-v-Whyte-Judgment-HC12F03282
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You star!!!! Might not get much sleep now…
Mr Doncaster on Sportsound tonight, this will be interesting
stevensanph says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:49
…………………………..
As a Celtic fan I agree with you Steven….I really can’t see why Mr, Gilmour would want to simply make decisions that benefited a division 3 SFL club to the disadvantage or detriment of his own…
It doesn’t stack up in my eyes…
However I am puzzled why the media chose to describe Mr. Greens presence at St. Mirren Park with the headline Gilmour to support SEVCO and vote no?
To me its the reporting of Greens visit as some collusion in the up coming vote…it might very well have been…but seriously why do it so publicly?….
I still believe it was Greens way of getting his fizzog on the screen in a televised match knowing it would create discussion…who is to say he didn’t have a dscussion with PL…after all the game involved Celtic?
It just does not stack up to me..
ok, quickly skimmed through the ticketus/whyte decision and one thing sticks out immediately.
Ticketus effectively stacked an ENTIRE claim for 17m on the fact that Whyte answer a question on a directors questionnaire as No, when he should have written yes.
Nothing else – that was it. Whyte made next to no attempt to defend it.
No contracts – no discussion on how the contracts were formed. No explanation of why nothing happened between october 2010 and the actual takeover in may/june.
I will read it again in depth tomorrow morning, but my gut tells me (speculation – i dont have facts) that this was a rehearsed set up to make sure the assets end up back under Whyte’s name.
It really is pathetic how many think St Mirren are part of some sort of conspiracy with Green. You guys should really take off the tin foil hats.
Last year when Rangers were correctly voted out of the SPL due to “sporting integrity” and the wishes of the fans it was congratulated, even if it meant the clubs may face financial hardship.
Today, only two clubs have actually listened to the fans of football in Scotland – and now, apparently, this is a bad thing? The reconstruction was a rediculous idea – an already tested and failed model, being rushed through for clubs selfish gains and no thoughts given to what fans actually want.
People should be applauding St Mirren and Ross County for having the guts to stand up to Aberdeen and Celtic. Particularly Aberdeen, who deserve all they get for refusing to vote to change the 11-1 voting stucture as they cuddled up to Celtic – thats the real conspiracy!
As for the gallant Celtic and other clubs (i.e Aberdeen) saying we will change the voting structure – but actually, only for league reconstruction and nothing else – thats pathetic, and anybody that doesn’t see that as a pathetic gesture is clueless.
Re Dundee’s chairman, he is a well known former Rangers supporter and employee, thus why no conspiracy theories about his comments concerning Stuart Gilmour?
For those who think Gilmour is being a touch slimey in attempts to engineer an Ibrox side back into his ground, St Mirren’s attendances this season are almost exactly at last season’s levels, when exRangers visited Paisley. St Mirren’s largest home gate this season has been against Kilmarnock.
On a different matter, weren’t the spl to be discussing Lord Nimmo Smith’s report today?
Latest from Phil
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/a-matter-of-timing/#more-3676
While cryptic to some extent, he appears confident that that HMS Sevco is holled below the waterline and that she will sink.
At the risk of giving Goosey a stroke, Lord Gill has declined to appear before the Holyrood petitions committee to discuss a register of Judicial Interests. The denizens of the New Club can go back to misruling the country in piece…… 😉
A quick glance through the Ticketus V Whyte doc. Are Octopus confirming that the monies from this were to be used for the purchase of Rangers
“This questionnaire has been prepared in connection with the proposed provision of funds via a ticket purchasing mechanism to a BidCo controlled by Mr Craig Whyte in relation to the acquisition of Glasgow
Rangers FC (“the Company”).
Phil MacGiollaBhain þ@Pmacgiollabhain 1m
To various: Anyone expecting #Sevco to die On Wednesday will be disappointed. However I expect to know more bad news about them on that day
And this one from Ticketus V Whyte. Celtic fans may be particularly tickled that the following is paragraph 67. 🙂
“67. I accept Ticketus‟ calculation of the principal loss they have suffered.
Judgment will therefore be entered in favour of Ticketus for £17,683,338, plusinterest, and I will direct an inquiry into the expenses incurred.”
1) SMFC Fans are almost 100% behind SG on this issue, in fact many Aberdeen fans have been congratulating me at work today and asking if we can swap Chairmen.
2) The repeal of 11-1 was not offered as a compromise, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous in the extreme.
Sadly
“Alasdair Lamont @BBCAlLamont 5m
Neil Doncaster told me earlier he ‘doesn’t do walking away’. Also says TV deals signed last summer completely unaffected by today’s decision”
If the ultimate plan is to fast track sevco 5088/Scotland then I wonder how many representatives are truly disappointed with the outcome? Will it lead to a split with invite? If so then not for me guys.
Is SG fronting for his own fans or sevco? Time may well tell.
The majority of fans did not fancy the proposed structure and were wary of the speed and timing of the process. It has been voted down. If the status quo remains then it may well have been a well intentioned proposal by chairmen who see the bigger picture regards finance. If a rush is now made to kick of SPL1 & SPL2 then I know I will not trust the whole process.
I am still undecided as to whether my Clubs rep would surreptitiously go along with a plan to fast track sevco for financial gain. I may never know 100% but I know I won’t be spending my well earned cash following a corrupt league. IF that is what I eventually perceive it to be.
Time will tell. Oh and if it is all an attempt to circumvent fan pressure and fast track Newclub how ironic if after all their efforts there is no Newclub to invite?
stevensanph says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:49
5 4 Rate This
St.johnstone voted yes.
Go to http://www.weareperth.co.uk and find me ONE fan who agreed. None. Zip. Zilch.
By the logic I am reading tonight on here, that means if Steve Brown had actually listened to the fans he would also be a Sevco supporter?
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Yip, although I would suggest logic is not involved whatsoever in a great number of the posts today.
Being the epitome of a well run small club I had expected StJohnstone to fall in line with SMFC and RCFC.
The CE says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 16:33
Don’t think anyone claimed 11-1 repeal was offered, but removing league re-construction from the reserved matters was. Perhaps by some sort of Sewel motion 😉
I agree that 11-1 has to go, there needs to be some sort of threshold for big structural changes, 75% majority seems reasonable to me.
It’s been a busy day one way or another . Now it seems that Operation Hornet may be about to sting. Happy days…..
http://www.ianfraser.org/police-dossier-says-former-hbos-directors-failed-to-act-on-fraud-allegations/
Early days concerning the rejected 12 12 18 proposal. I like to keep things can you name 1 club who would suffer most financially if the proposal went through. I can.
Well, last trade of the 50k shares at 58p
Willie Miller on Sportsound Extra rubbished the idea of a bigger league, saying does no-one remember the 18 team leagues of the past which were terrible (can’t recall his exact phrasing). Many others bring this up but they clearly haven’t given much thought to it. In the 60s and 70s play offs were unheard of. It was also two points for a win.
At the weekend, the English Championship teams (all but two) played game No.42 out of 46. Eleven matches, not one of them meaningless. There wasn’t even one team out of the 22 that could say it had nothing to play for. Even after the games, Middlesbrough and Leeds, 10th and 11th respectively, are still not completely safe from relegation and actually still have a very outside chance of finishing in the play offs. A league down, it is not so tight but they have got well into April before any team can rest easy.
Were we to go with a league of 18, you would guaranteed hear all sorts of nonsense about there being meaningless matches come March. There wouldn’t be if it was two up, two down with 15th and 16th being the relegation play off positions, to meet 3rd and 4th from the tier below. Come March, you would have teams sitting 9-12 say, with one eye on a European place if they put a run together but also wary that a few defeats in a row would see them in danger of relegation. 34 games means no split, four fewer games so players with, say, Celtic have a bit more rest time, handy if it’s a season like this one with long runs in Europe and International commitments. Fans will be excited about going to Pittodrie, Tynecastle, etc just the once and attendances would surely improve as the fans finally get, for the most part, what they’ve been crying out for. Four fewer games will have a slight impact on monies but the overall increased gates should mean a relatively painless transition. How many times do we hear players who have left to go down south say how refreshing it is to only play teams twice? The players would welcome it.
I would invite four more teams in and go 18-10-18. There are down sides I admit. The quality of the second tier would be a lot poorer. There would have to be a pyramid. I’m not sure regionalising can work, given the current geographical make-up of the lower leagues, (ie far more South than North). The middle league would be like the current Second Division, with 1-4 being promotion or possible promotion and 9th playing off with 2nd, 3rd and 4th. At the top, maybe some would shudder if the likes of Dumbarton or Stirling ever got promoted to the “elite” league. Same way some down south shuddered at Blackpool and Hull, who both enhanced the league. Part-time teams would undoubtedly be on the wrong end of some painful scorelines and Hearts v Dumbarton would be a turn off for Jambos. But then, some new teams would bring a freshness to the league. I think the good outweighs the bad though. I’m confident that the majority of fans would prefer it to 12-12-18 or any set up with crazy, unfair, mind bogglingly difficult to fathom splits.
I’m quite prepared for someone to tell me I’m talking nonsense!
I would contend that for a fan, no game is truly meaningless.
I wasn’t a fan of the 12-12-18 setup so I’m glad it’s off the table, there was a real chance of no promotion for clubs in the initial middle league.
11-1 was only offered to be removed for this vote, not any other matters, so good on St Mirren for sticking to their plan.
If 11-1 is to go, then it has to go completely, not just when it suits some clubs.
It will however, be interesting to watch what happens next with regards to any plan B for SPL2 or whatever.
So another day passes in the drama that is scottish football, it will be interesting to see if any clubs break ranks and tell us why Gilmour was reportedly so angry afterwards or why Milne was reportedly close to tears.
barcabhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:08
Next Time Gilmour bangs on about how St Mirren are living within their means, somebody in the MSM should ask him why in that case they have lost £300,000 a year for the last 3 years.
Their cash in the bank at the last set of accounts was just about enough to 2 weeks overheads, and their current wages to turnover ratio is nearly 71%
This was a club who were awarded a government grant of £1.766 million in 2008. Without Scottish taxpayers money where would this “well run ” club be sitting today
I don’t claim to know why they voted against, but when Gilmour said it was because of 11-1 , I said at the time that was a smokescreen , and that is the word coming from everyone who was at the meeting who has commented today
For a club who would not be able to exist in its current form without the huge money given to them by Scottish taxpayers, they were unwilling to extend a helping hand to those in desperate need within Scottish football.
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Extremely disappointed to see you resort to smear tactics such as this BB, I had though you a cut above Paul Brennan and his ilk.
Far from being a smokescreen, 11-1 is one of a number of red-line issues for SMFC and it’s fans, and despite what has been reported and what you seem to have swallowed gleefully, no practical change was offered on this as part of any compromise.
Can you also please provide links for your financial information, anything I can find seems to contradict your analysis.
And how very convenient of you to ignore not only our almost £1million profit 4 years ago when referring to our finances but also that the relevant fact that nearly every SPL club has received government funding or grants at some point. That’s before we even get started on Debt Shedders like Dundee and teams with eye watering debts such as Hearts and Aberdeen. If I didn’t know you better it would look like you were trying to arrange the facts to suit your misguided and unpopular agenda.
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The graph below shows the reported profits of St Mirren.
It is clear that the club is run very tightly. The profits and losses move very small amounts. The 2004 and 2005 minor losses match up with the league positions, and the corresponding increases in 2006 and 2007 with a more successful team performance.
http://www.football-finances.org.uk/stmirren/profits2.htm
St Mirren returned to the red and
posted a trading loss before tax of
£0.3m (2009: £0.9m profit). This was
primarily due to the financial
contractual liabilities incurred in
changing the management team, as
well as the interest income associated
with the sale of the club’s Love Street
ground not recurring during the
season (2009: £0.5m.) However, when
stripping out depreciation from the
bottom line, the club achieved its
target of a cash break-even.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/st-mirren/265709-spl-financial-health-check-st-mirren/
After four seasons of continuous
growth in wages and related costs,
St Mirren managed to successfully
reduce these costs in 2010/11 by
25% to £2.2m (2010: £3m). This was
despite an increase in the average
number of employees at the club
from 60 to 69 and followed efforts by
the board to trim the salaries of the
clubs top earners. As the reduction
was proportionately greater than
the fall in turnover, the club’s wageto-turnover ratio fell to 71% (2010:
76%). Although still above our
recommended sustainable ratio of
60%, a 25% reduction in payroll related
costs represents progress in the right
direction and the Paisley club must
continue to apply this approach and
reduce the reliance on unbudgeted
25% reduction in payroll costs, increased av attendance, and our first national trophy in 26 years. What a terribly run club.
http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/st-mirren/205970-2012-financial-health-check-a-look-at-the-finances-of-st-mirren/
http://pwc.blogs.com/files/2012—financial-review-of-spl-football2010-11_final.pdf
barcabhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 15:08
Next Time Gilmour bangs on about how St Mirren are living within their means, somebody in the MSM should ask him why in that case they have lost £300,000 a year for the last 3 years.
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No need. I’ll answer that question for you.
St. Mirren’s “losses” are almost entirely paper losses. Depreciation of the value of the stadium is being used to record losses for tax reasons.
St. Mirren wanted a change to the 11-1 voting structure for financial and commercial issues. That wasn’t offered at the meeting today.
I suspect I may get a few TDs for this post, but it is one I made a couple of days ago on a reconstruction thread on a Hearts message board. The post was in response to a post about the “Scotland has too many clubs” argument, although my response also contributed to the general reconstruction debate.
Error in last post
Meant to read. I like to keep things simple.
Matthew Lindsay @MattLindsayET 50m
Rangers officials are hopeful their proposals for league reconstruction will be considered now that 12-12-18 has been rejected. #spl
SSN saying that club chairmen feel that CG has had an influence in the Gilmour’s vote
St Mirren chairman Stewart Gilmour 9th April
“I want change for the right reasons and if my club don’t agree with the continuation of the 11-1 majority vote then we’re entitled to say so, am I not?”
“We want a new league system and a rule book we can buy into. Anything new that clubs want to try is stuffed by this 11-1 voting procedure. The game can’t go anywhere while that is in place.
“And is a lockdown in the rules wanted so that when Rangers and Celtic are reunited in the same league they will create an alliance off the park and 11-1 will never change?
easyJambo says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 17:36
hard to disagree with much of this, but, and its a big but, there no, zero, nada appetite for this sort of change anywhere. We need a Scottish solution at least in the medium term
texaspedro says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 16:17
It really is pathetic how many think St Mirren are part of some sort of conspiracy with Green. You guys should really take off the tin foil hats.
Last year when Rangers were correctly voted out of the SPL due to “sporting integrity” and the wishes of the fans it was congratulated, even if it meant the clubs may face financial hardship.
————-
Whats pathetic is that you still believe that Sevco were ‘Voted Out’ of the SPL. They were not. They have never been in the SPL. Also to believe that Sevco can be responsible for bestowing financial hardship is downright stupidity when you look at the current financial condition of the Sevco outfit.
Spartan statement:oh dear, were promises made to the to allow Sevco into the SFL?
Oh SPL clubs vote ‘No’ to change
Posted on Monday, April 15th, 2013
We are very disappointed to learn of the outcome of today’s SPL vote on league reconstruction. Like many involved in Scottish football, Spartans believe that something significant is needed if we are to safeguard and develop the game in this country. As an ambitious club we had, obviously, welcomed the idea of a pyramid structure and the prospect that our national leagues would become inclusive rather than exclusive. We had believed that other clubs felt the same and that this time action would accompany the rhetoric.
However, while this decision was disappointing, like all forward-thinking clubs, we will continue to look for opportunities to progress and strengthen the sport for all and endeavour to work with like-minded clubs to make it more equitable.
I think that regardless for the reasons for the rejection, Charles Green and Sevco will seek to exploit it anyway. We must stay alert and strenuously reject with our clubs, any actions which seek to give Sevco an advance in any way.
Can someone tell me why sevco are releasing a statement re ‘league reconstruction’ when 1 it was an SPL meeting today and 2 they don’t even have a vote 🙂 …… I think they should put their own house in order before commenting on anyone else 🙂
For the TDers 50 hrs and counting 🙂 my opinion I’ll be counting forever, it probably won’t happen they (sevco) are playing for time.
I couldn’t give a toss what The Rangers say about this or basically anything for that matter. Whatever they’re spouting is totally irrelevant manure and shouldn’t be given any air time.
If the position of r.county & st.mirren is about the 11-1 vote or they just don’t like the 12-12-18, then I as a Celtic fan am more proud of those two than Celtic and the other nine.
Sorry Brenda but what is the countdown for must have missed it
When the results of sevco’s independent inquiry into yorkie (CG) and TGEF are announced!!!!
Okay thanks need to keep up
Ok. Having taken a little time to digest this, I don’t agree with bashing of St Mirren or Ross County. Clubs are absolutely entitled to vote for self-interest if that is what they believe to be the most important. Whatever the complete package was, it clearly wasn’t enough to convince those two clubs that there was a greater good to be achieved.
I am hugely encouraged by the reported movement by Celtic. I recall a discussion (I think with Hugh McEwen on RTC) in which I suggested that Celtic could and should offer to give up some money in order to move the game forward. It’s unfortunate that it wasn’t enough to reach an agreement.
Having said that, the fans have made it abundantly clear that they did not want 12-12-18, so we can hardly be upset when that wasn’t delivered.
For all the St. Mirren fans currently outraged at all those paranoid Celtic fans I would like to add something.
Firstly let me state for the record, I believe it was and remains the right of every club to vote as they believe is right. I would also like to state that I am not one of those conspiracy theorists.
I also don’t believe the structure proposed is the best but as I couldn’t come up with better, I was willing to accept it was worth trying.
I also believe SG voted the right way for his club and that is where the big problem lies; this was meant to be a change to benefit all teams. Celtic are continuously (including the last hours) mocked for acting only in their own selfish interests yet all of the vocal St. Mirren fans today have been saying that SG has to do only what is in the best interest of his club.. Sorry but I don’t get that.
My fear is that we will eventually lose all trust in each other and we will eventually spiral downwards to a point of no return, football will not disappear but some of the teams that are trying to protect themselves are actually harming themselves in the long term.
One last point, paranoia is only deemed so until the subject matter has been proven, remember we were paranoid about Murray, we were then extremely paranoid about White, now we are obsessively paranoid about Green, wonder how paranoid we will be at the end of April when his time is called.
I have a soft spot for St. Mirren due to friends who are diehards so I hope the paranoia is simply that, paranoia! I believe it is but I have been wrong so many times before.
https://www.facebook.com/dundeeunitedfc/posts/10151404354883730
Dundee United Football Club · 16,774 like this
3 minutes ago ·
STATEMENT FROM STEPHEN THOMPSON, DUNDEE UNITED CHAIRMAN.
Today saw Scottish Football miss a massive opportunity to move the game forward. The package that was voted on was a balanced package with many items that would have breathed new life into the game. The proposals would have attracted new sponsors and advertisers and, more importantly, encouraged more fans to attend the exciting and vibrant spectacle we are producing on the park, as was witnessed in the two William Hill Scottish Cup semi finals at the weekend.
I have stated publicly before that the proposals that were presented were not perfect, but that there were enough positive changes in the package for the overall good of the game. Merging two league bodies was a massive step forward, an all through distribution model supported other full time clubs in Scotland, and the introduction of play offs and a pyramid system, would have rewarded ambition at all levels of the senior game. The restructuring proposals also brought more meaningful games during the season with clubs always having something to play for.
At Dundee United we were not happy with a number of issues in the proposals, but we preferred instead to look at the undoubted benefits of the overall package for the game as a whole. It has taken years for clubs to agree a way forward and many individuals and groups have given up a considerable amount of their own time to bring the proposals forward. In doing so, they gained the support of the vast majority of SPL clubs and most of the Division One clubs. Indeed, approximately 90% of full time clubs in Scotland supported the proposals and all SPL clubs were given ample opportunity to express any concerns during the many months of consultation.
In an attempt to overcome some late concerns, concessions were made on the day with regard to voting of 11-1, but these were not even allowed to be amended; never mind voted on!
Despite all of this, two clubs today decided to vote in a certain way and my belief now is that it will be many years before other proposals backed by so many will reach the table again.
As a family who have rightly or wrongly injected £5.6 million into one club, and not an individual who is taking huge amounts out of the game in salary, it’s now time for football supporters throughout Scotland to ask questions.
I personally believed that the proposals were a major step forward, one league body would have been progress and brought sponsors and advertisers to a new and exciting product, the new league structure would have brought excitement and meaningful games and a financial distribution model that would support all clubs in Scotland and in particular all full time clubs.
There are no other proposals on the table and none are likely in the near future.
It is now time to concentrate on all that is positive on the park. Many Scottish clubs, including Dundee United, have a vibrant youth policy and we have also seen many exciting games throughout the season, especially in recent weeks. Our own club still has much to play for this season and the outlook for next season excites me.
I now propose to work even harder at Dundee United and build a better club for our supporters. We have an exciting new manager in Jackie McNamara and I believe we have a bright future ahead of us.
Thanks to Big Phil.We need a laugh.
Phil MacGiollaBhain@Pmacgiollabhain2h
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxwW-RXCagY …
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