Good Evening.
When considering any type of protracted negotiation or discussion that seems to be going on too long, there is a story that is always worth remembering– whether it is actually a true story or not as the case may be.
It is said, that heads of state all met at a congress in what is now modern Germany sometime after the Franco Prussian war of 1870-1871.The entire congress was being run almost singlehandedly by the then Prussian Chancellor Otto von Bismark and he was keen to get all the necessary signatures on paper to seal some deal or other.
However, others at the congress were not too keen to sign up to certain elements of the proposed deal and so they hithered and dithered and in the eyes of Bismark they simply waisted time by concentrating on the minutiae- the little matters, with a view to ensuring their own interests were best served in these small areas– and did not focus on the big issue.
Having tried to talk these others round and educate them in his own beliefs and point of view on the bigger picture without any success, Bismark grew weary of the continuing delay and the posturing of his colleagues. All attempts at reason and diplomacy had failed in his eyes and so he decided to take a different tack.
Accordingly, it is said that whilst others were still inside debating endlessly on this matter or that, Bismark left the building and began simply shooting the windows in with the aid of a riffle which he just happened to have handy.
Those inside were naturally alarmed at this turn of events. They soon forgot about the minutiae under debate, they abandoned the previously expressed self interest and simply signed up so that they could get away from the mad chancellor and his house.
Job done so to speak.
Whilst I do not in anyway condone the behaviour of Otto von Bismark in this instance, and have no doubt that he was an autocrat, what I will say is that he believed that there was too much time being spent on the unimportant stuff and not enough time recognising what really needed doing– from his point of view of course.
Today– and it seems every day for months— we have endless debate about the future of Scottish Football. League reconstruction and the redistribution of footballing wealth has become a marathon– even before it has started.
Yet I believe that at the moment all parties concerned are not focusing on the radical reform that is fundamentally needed which is the creation of one, strong, properly structured and constituted body which is capable of the proper and ethical governance of Scottish Football and the business that surrounds football.
No matter what system you try, or distribution you agree, without proper sensible strong governance you are wasting your time.
Further, whatever body is set up, and whoever is chosen to be its CEO (or whatever the head honcho is going to be called), they must tackle the issue of corporate and fiscal compliance and the proper administration of any body corporate which actively takes part in Scottish Football– and that includes any such body or person who is involved in the running of a member club.
In addition, in so dealing with any corporate malfeasance or chicanery or whatever, the rules have to be applied with a rod of iron by an iron body.
As we can now clearly see, Football clubs and football in general is not, and never will be, immune from the effects of bad corporate governance and on occasion downright manipulation of facts, figures and contracts.
Whilst great play has been made of the fact that Gavin Masterton has handed over his shares in Dunfermline FC ( or its holding company ) the fact of the matter is that this in no way solves the problem faced by the football club. Whoever gains control of that club will still have to rent the ground from Mr Masterton’s company– and it is a rent that the club may just not be able to afford.
Ever!
It is only my opinion of course, but I am of the view that Mr Masterton has sealed a loan deal with his bankers which is of a type and duration which could not normally be achieved by other borrowers. The Loan has a lengthy period during which no repayments are necessary and interest can continue to accrue.
All very good you may say, but the level of debt concerned is not one that appears to be sustainable by Dunfermline FC and so whoever buys the club as a going concern ( if anyone buys it at all ) will have to pay an agreed rental to Gavin Masterton– and if the rental is not sufficient to repay Mr Masterton’s lenders, then I suspect that the end game here will be a search to find a buyer for the ground at some point over the next twenty years or so, with the hope that as part of the deal a space will be found somewhere for a new ground like New St Mirren park– the difference being that in that instance St Mirren were in charge of their future whereas Dunfermline are not.
The Governance of that club and the financial arrangements behind the club should have been looked at and examined by the SFA long before now– and the Dunfermline fans warned about the dangers of any such arrangements. Effectively those finance arrangements, should they continue, will probably mean that the club will have no option but to move from its established home!
All to suit one man!
Thankfully Dundee were spared a full takeover by Giovanni Di Stefano, however is it not a bit worrying that this man who has been jailed for over 14 years for various fraudulent acts, was allowed to roam around Scottish Football for a prolonged period?
Not so long ago Di Stefano did play a part at Dens, was in line to buy almost 30% of the shareholding, and was oft quoted in the papers and so on. The thing is that there were those who were prepared to give him a place at the Dundee table and in so doing invited him into Scottish Football.
Surely the SFA, had they been inclined to, could quite easily have pointed out that many of the claims of Mr Di Stefano were at least dubious if not completely incorrect? Yet nothing was being said at the time and silence prevailed.
Whilst not in the same calibre as Di Dtefano, Vladimir Romanov has now been at Hearts for a prolonged period. While I have no quibbles about the legality of Romanov’s takeover of Hearts, any money of a sizeable size which is transferred into Scotland from a foreign country will be subject to scrutiny by the Crown office to ensure that it is clean. Lithuania in particular is said to have a banking system which is governed loosely and sometimes does not meet the compliance standards expected in this country.
With his bank having gone bust, Romanov still retains the majority shareholding at Tynecastle, but there are questions still to be answered about what has happened at Hearts but life will be very different for the Edinburgh club going forward.
Again– could the SFA have done more to monitor the situation and could they have demanded clarity and detail from the Hearts owner as to his business dealings and the detailed arrangements with his bank?
At Ibrox, well things just go from the weird and inexplicable to downright astonishing– and all through a tremendous amount of smoke and mirrors.
It is clear that the SFA have no idea what to believe from Charles Green or for that matter Craig Whyte. On the face of it, there are clear links between Whyte and Green with the former paying over a six figure sum in return for absolutely nothing it would appear– with similar transactions going between Whyte’s colleague, Aiden Early, and Charles Green.
What is clear is that Green gave a clear undertaking to the SFA that he had nothing whatsoever to do with Whyte and would have nothing to do with Whyte going forward. Now, at the very least he is admitting that he met Whyte on several occasions, and whilst he may have made representations to Craig Whyte— these were all lies designed only to get Whyte to where Green wanted him.
This is hardly the act of someone who has been bona fides in his business dealings either with Whyte or with the SFA as the licensing body.
It is against this background that the Scottish Football Agencies need to wake up before they find the fans of the game ( at least those who want to stay interested in the game ) doing a Bismarck and panning in the windows of this whole house of cards.
Football Clubs, football fans, and indeed football itself needs protected from the financial and corporate shenanigans, and the governing body must be much more active and permanently vigilant in watching out for and if necessary anticipating the people and the transactions which have and will jeopardise clubs and the game in general going forward.
It is clearly no longer acceptable to rely on self regulation or mere declarations and undertakings from the clubs themselves. The Administrators must be much more active and employ far greater professional expertise in carrying out an almost constant analytical and reporting function in relation to club finance and corporate regulation.
All and any changes in funding, boardroom changes, investor changes and anything else major should be the subject of immediate and proper scrutiny by the SFA and there should be fair, immediate and stiff sanctions for non compliance, and any type of dilatory behaviour on the part of club officials who would seek to conceal the truth or who fail to properly disclose vital matters which should be out in the open.
Further, the funding detail– such as the never ending loan re Dunfermline should be a matter of public record in all its detail so that fans and investors can make information based value judgements when dealing with any club.
Such stiffer regulation should not develop into anything like a corporate witch hunt or any kind of draconian big brother syndrome, however the need for change given all of the current troubles is obvious to one and all.
Further, the attempted fudge surrounding Rangers league status last summer and the ongoing disquiet surrounding the position of Campbell Ogilvie does nothing to boost faith in and the reputation of Football Administration in Scotland.
Things are far from clear and there appears to be continual dithering and fudging. No one has any idea where the Nimmo Smith Report has gone nor what import it is to have— if any. Why is that?
Dithering and bumbling over detail is no longer an option. Strong clear governance is required to protect the game from being hijacked by those who have their own corporate and financial agendas.
Such people cannot be allowed to determine the way Scottish Football runs or to conduct themselves in a fashion that leaves football and everyone involved in limbo.
It is time for Scottish Football to find its own Iron Chancellor! There is a need for someone who will, if necessary, come along and shoot the lights out of any club or Company Director who wishes to play fast and loose with the game of football.
Just listening to Sportsound and it seemed to me that the Milne has proved what a fool he is and has made a big mistake in letting his temper get the better of him.
His mistake isn’t to disagree with Gilmour it was to stupidly speak out and try to shift focus on the 2 clubs that “blocked” the vote.
The result? English and Speirs focus on Milne’s outburst instead of the reasons this proposal was rejected.
THAT is the important thing here the reasons for rejecting the proposal. That should be the only thing we hear discussed.
It doesn’t matter who rejected it – we need to hear their reasons. We need to listen to them, understand them and attempt to resolve them.
I’ve no idea why Sportsound spent so much effort having a go at Milne (Lawwell was not criticised maintinaing the 11-1, just Milne?) but the effect is they have massively taken their eye off the ball here.
Personalities need to be put aside. Why did St Mirren and Ross County feel they could not support this?
Step forward gents please.
————
As an aside I do laugh at Speirs assertion that fans didn’t want 12-12-18 therefore its good to see it bocked then 15 mins later he thinks the SPL should be allowed to jump The Rangers up the league “if they want to”. What happened to what the fans want being the most important Graham?
The journalists in this country really are idiots. Not to mention most of the Club Chairman, Administrators of the relevant organisations……………..
I think the insinuation that external factors were involved come from the comments of Milne and Southern. Chairmen of clubs in similar, almost identical situation to St Mirren, who believed that this plan was the best option on the table. It was they that said that the 11-1 issue was a smokescreen and that the dissenters position was not adequately explained.
Lord Wobbly says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 18:56
=========================================
Gie me peace, what exactly was it Celtic were giving up so generously to the rest of Scottish football? What’s the figures? This on the backdrop of being near certainties for CL for the next few seasons.
Then tell me how much was to be taken away from second place? More than double. It was the prize money taken from second place which was providing most of the source of the redistributed funds.
And what movement did Celtic give on the 11-1 voting? They only budged to waive 11-1 for reconstruction votes (even though the reconstruction is tied for 3 years). They never offered anything meaningful.
And Milne, stop your whining. You had your chance to change the voting last year, but sided with Celtic. Karma’s a bitch, eh? Good on Stewart Gilmour for standing his ground against the other weasel SPL chairmen.
From the outset: no specialist knowledge, although I have taken a company into voluntary liquidation. We ran into, um, legal difficulties. And I support an SFL2 “diddy” team.
However, it seems from here that the Rangers International statement of this morning does everything except that which it was intended to do. It calms no waters, it names no protagonists, it gives no timescale, and it directs enquiries to the very people whose governance is in question. And it has that tub thumping codicil, aimed surely at supporters rather than hard headed city types, claiming to have been incorporated in 1066 and to have recently won, I dunno, the Boat Race, the Grand National and the Masters. Its only material effect has been to drive the share price down.
It buys a bit of time, that is all. As others have said, the exit strategy must already be in place. We will have to give Murray and the Non Executives the benefit of the (considerable) doubt. They have been participants in a share issue aimed at ordinary Joes, based on a prospectus your dog could have seen through. And I leave on the (possibly) most telling part of the said prospectus:
“We have not had the opportunity of inspecting the Title Deeds of the subjects under valuation and, for the purposes of our valuation, we have assumed that the subjects are held under Title which is the equivalent of Heritable Ownership (formerly Feudal) unless otherwise stated as being subject to a Lease. We have further assumed that the properties are free from encumbrances, restrictions or outgoings of an onerous nature which would have a material impact on the value.” (From DM Hall Valuation of Assets)
Sorry if it’s been said already, but in the present climate, maybe someone doesn’t want the pyramid structure as they might not get back in if they go bust.
One thing that been thrown up over this is the apparent anomaly of the 11-1 and the fact that after Rangers departure it has not been ditched.
Perhaps the apparently irrepressible 11-1 situation is not a simple democracy argument after all. Certainly it appears that ten of the clubs today did not think it as crucial a stumbling block as SG seems to think.
Bearing in mind that all of the other clubs, as well as the two who voted against can be relied upon to protect their own self-interest, why is it that the 11-1 was not leveraged further over this vote?
I absolutely do not buy the notion that SG is doing the bidding of Rangers here. Utter nonsense to even consider it, but the situation poses more questions than the answers it fails to provide.
Also, we have not been told what, if anything, St Mirren or Ross County asked for in return for their support here. Did they in fact ask for anything? If not, is it not reasonable to assume that they just didn’t like the idea at almost any cost, and that their stated positions are honest and above board?
The last straw for me is this. Neil Doncaster stated tonight on SSB that two clubs had changed their votes (for reasons he claimed not to understand) after voting in favour on two occasions since January.
This is Armageddon man. This is the “Sky will pull out of the deal” guy.
On balance I take SG at face value, but the conundrum of the 11-1 remains. Why?
On a final note, how can you have an 11-1 vote in a league which has 24 members?
If we extrapolate that to 24 members, then would that become 22-2 – which would still water the thing down somewhat?
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:03
The Dundee Utd’s Chairman statement seems to be a sensible and balanced comment on the ‘pro’ arguments, especially this extract
“I have stated publicly before that the proposals that were presented were not perfect, but that there were enough positive changes in the package for the overall good of the game. Merging two league bodies was a massive step forward, an all through distribution model supported other full time clubs in Scotland, and the introduction of play offs and a pyramid system, would have rewarded ambition at all levels of the senior game. The restructuring proposals also brought more meaningful games during the season with clubs always having something to play for.
At Dundee United we were not happy with a number of issues in the proposals, but we preferred instead to look at the undoubted benefits of the overall package for the game as a whole. It has taken years for clubs to agree a way forward and many individuals and groups have given up a considerable amount of their own time to bring the proposals forward. In doing so, they gained the support of the vast majority of SPL clubs and most of the Division One clubs. Indeed, approximately 90% of full time clubs in Scotland supported the proposals and all SPL clubs were given ample opportunity to express any concerns during the many months of consultation.”
As opposed to the rantings of Milne, this is bar at which any St Mirren or Ross County ‘cons’ argument should be measured.
Celtic statement, in which it is clear that someone is smoking something other than tobacco
“FOLLOWING today´s vote by the SPL clubs on league reconstruction proposals, Celtic have released the following statement.
´Clearly we are disappointed that today’s proposals have not been voted through. We believe this is a huge missed opportunity for the whole of Scottish football.
We were pleased a number of months ago to have achieved unanimity across all clubs on the proposals for the way forward. We do not understand the rationale now offered for rejecting these proposals and the unwillingness to take the game forward positively. It is unfortunate that the vision shown by the vast majority of clubs is now not shared by all.
We believe these positive proposals would have fundamentally enhanced Scottish football for the future.
Neil Doncaster has an impossible job to do at times and he and his team have worked tirelessly to initiate positive change in Scottish football. They should be applauded for their efforts in this regard and we would like also to place on record our thanks to outgoing SPL Chairman, Ralph Topping.
We understand today’s events are unfortunate and the implications for the game will generate some uncertainty. However, Celtic has strong foundations and will look forward.
We have enjoyed a tremendous season, we are on the verge of securing back to back SPL titles and yesterday we ensured our place in this season’s Scottish Cup final. This, at the end of a season where we joined Europe’s elite as one of the top 16 clubs across the continent.
While we have not reached agreement on these proposals, our club is fundamentally in a very healthy position and now we move on. We thank our fans for their continued support as we move forward.´”
This bit will be a hard sell for any supporter to buy into
“Neil Doncaster has an impossible job to do at times and he and his team have worked tirelessly to initiate positive change in Scottish football. They should be applauded for their efforts in this regard and we would like also to place on record our thanks to outgoing SPL Chairman, Ralph Topping.”
That statement by Celtic has me flabbergasted. I think it shows the complete disconnect by them, and I’m assuming almost all other SPL club supremos, from their fans. Neil Doncaster doing a good job???? By what standard or stretch of the imagination can he be said to be doing a good job? His antics particularly around the shoehorning of Sevco into the league and total bending of rules and the LNS debacle don’t indicate to me or anyone else that a good job is even being attempted!
I think they have just confirmed that Celtic and the other clubs, sadly including my own club Hibs, totally approve of everything that has gone on regards Sevco, and the corruption of the game to favour them.
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:28
For the avoidance of doubt ;=) its the paean to Mr Doncaster that makes me wonder about the wacky baccy, the rest of the statement is fine
One minor observation, perhaps already commented upon;
TRFC have said they will ‘commission’ an ‘independent report’ on Chucks recent behaviour.
This has since been transposed by Alastair, and others, into an ‘independent committee’ will report on Chucks recent behaviour.
Now there’s a big difference between the two…
Or am I becoming paranoid?
I am extremely disappointed in the Celtic statement, to state that anyone in Scottish football (let alone a man who did nothing but downplay it at every opportunity) is currently doing a great job is, well, not to put any gloss on it, bullsh*t! It is so out of touch with the feeling of a lot of the fan base that I wonder what the CEO’s are thinking, are they really that out of touch to believe that view would be respected?
I am prepared to qualify my argument against the statement, unfortunately the club chairmen never seem to quantify or qualify any of their statements with tangible examples.
I don’t know what to say!
Big Pink says:
Monday, April 15, 2013
On balance I take SG at face value, but the conundrum of the 11-1 remains. Why?
On a final note, how can you have an 11-1 vote in a league which has 24 members?
If we extrapolate that to 24 members, then would that become 22-2 – which would still water the thing down somewhat?
=================
Surely the more obvious move is to 23-1?
Independent inquiry into Green takeover to comprise of :
Father Aud
Miss Feasance
&
Dee Ception
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:28
…
“…Neil Doncaster has an impossible job to do at times and he and his team have worked tirelessly to initiate positive change in Scottish football. They should be applauded for their efforts in this regard…”
====================
Regardless of the pros/cons of the league reconstruction proposals…
Unless I am misreading this, shirley the collapse of the proposals can be directed at Doncaster’s incompetence as an administrator ?
For such an important meeting, one would expect that the decisions/votes would be confirmed in advance. Ultimately, if there was a dissenting voice(s), then Doncaster should be aware and could have delayed the meeting to further lobby members ?
IMO, Doncaster should have managed the member clubs so that today’s meeting should have been a simple ‘rubber-stamping’ job, then tea and biscuits ?
If the dissenting clubs could not have been persuaded informally, then the meeting/vote should not have happened. Now there is anger, possible recriminations and frustrations amongst the clubs.
For Doncaster to now appear ‘surprised’ at the failed outcome does not reflect well on his administrative abilities, IMO.
I don’t think he should be applauded for today’s meeting.
Interesting, yes or no?
KAL Accountants @KALAccountants 3h
@CelticResearch @mikefstv It’s dates Whyte was talking to Octopus that are interesting. Oct 2010. Entire deal hinged on these negotiations.
KAL Accountants @KALAccountants 2h
@TheTributeAct @CelticResearch @mikefstv Octopus doing diligence on deal where other party wasn’t owner of thing they were buying. Oooft.
Ross County and St Mirren can vote however they like. It’s happened and we move on.
Of more concern to me right now is an SPL 2 and the inevitable push for Sevco to be included in it. That flies completely in the face of the democracy which allowed RCFC and SMFC to cast their votes today. I suggest we all ensure our Chairmen are left in no doubt as to the consequences of advancement being on the basis of anything other than on-field sporting achievement.
bobferris70 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 17:05
39 3 Rate This
——————————-
Bob I don’t think your talking nonsense at all.
There are lots of aspects they just don’t seem to consider about debating larger leagues.
Are they telling us the Championship and Premiership are full of meaningless games?
Surely no game is really meaningless for a fan – we want our teams to win every time they play?
I’ve thought for a while now that one simple answer would be just 2 divisions as 20 – 20.
As with any structure they would then need to get the details right to make it work: pyramid, voting, distribution of cash, play offs etc etc.
I just do not get the “meaningless games” argument at all.
Let me just add 1 example of “getting the details right” in a larger league.
We could have a play off system not just at the bottom (which is a no brainer IMO) but also between final positions 2-4 with the prize(s) being the european spots.
Big Pink says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:22
I absolutely do not buy the notion that SG is doing the bidding of Rangers here. Utter nonsense to even consider it, but the situation poses more questions than the answers it fails to provide.
=============================================
I don’t think there are too many scenarios in Scottish football that can now be considered ‘utter nonsense’ TBH. I’d hate to think Gilmour has any tie in with Rangers but it can’t be totally dismissed either.
Dundee Utd’s chairman appears to harbour suspicions of motives of someone drawing a salary from the game compared to his own families £5m plus investment.
Who was he referring to? Does SG draw a salary or is it another G?
Forres Dee (@ForresDee) says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 17:10
19 6 Rate This
——————————————
That’s a great idea but do any of the clubs actually want to remove it (11-1) for all matters? I haven’t seen a single club suggest this.
As far as we can tell St Mirren do not and neither do Ross County.
Your comment that the 11-1 was only to be removed for “this vote” isn’t the way i understand it – what was proposed was for 11-1 to be changed to 9-3 for the subject of future reconstructions – precisely the issue St Mirren objected to in the meeting it seems.
As far I can see all 12 clubs have failed here by collectively agreeing means to move things forward even if we don’t get to the perfect end game on one bold step.
As a don I’m totally disgusted by SM’s comments ,this is from a team that have missed the top 6 for the last 3 seasons , for real he appears on stv news on Friday night and stated it will be a hard sell to the fans after the yes vote , get real all the clubs should be listening to the fans before any vote . Take your tv money and shove it . He needs to start wearing his wig again at least that was entertaining.If we didn’t have the 6 split Aberdeen ,Kilmarnock & Hibs would still be fighting it out for a European spot , that would be 8 clubs still in the mix , probably been one of the most close seasons for a long time.
Does anyone know if Sevco have set their season book prices for next season yet or has the recent events put a lid back on this ,when they do come out I imagine the take up will be slower than a one legged horse in a one horse race,surely most clubs have set some kind of figure to release in the not too distant future or have some been advised to hang fire,this would give us a clue to some chicannery being cooked up.
I see the attacks on the Celtic statement issued today and can only observe that the statement appeared to me to be totally focused on the failure of the reconstruction proposals and has to be judged solely in that light.
It wasn’t meant to deal with other issues, albeit some serious, which have been taking place for over a year.
So in that context I have no problem with the comment: ‘Neil Doncaster has an impossible job to do at times and he and his team have worked tirelessly to initiate positive change in Scottish football. They should be applauded for their efforts in this regard’.
Indeed I would be hard put to attack Doncaster and his team as only those directly involved in the negotiations really have any knowledge as to whether Doncaster screwed-up, for whatever reason, or whether there were hidden agendas at work.
If the latter then we will no doubt eventually learn more about the behind the scenes stuff. In the interim I honestly feel I have little alternative than to accept Celtic’s position unless I see contrary opinions being expressed, backed-up with concrete facts, by others directly involved in negotiations.
The internet is a wonderful tool for the masses to be empowered and learn the truth but we must remember that it is cheapened and will eventually become a discredited soap-box if we just use it to advance pet theories, personal grudges and grievances, with no evidence presented or cogent arguments. That would mean we just become a replacement for the MSM.
There may also be the slight inconvenience of allowing Democracy to rear its head when it doesn’t directly suit our wishes or agenda and I trust in supporters of the clubs, who have played a major role in voting down the changes, to decide whether their club was following their wishes or not or it may even be that other club motives, as yet uncovered, just happened to coincide somewhat with the fans’ position.
Again time will tell whether the fans have been hoodwinked or actually listened to by their club and we can’t arrive at that position overnight without running the risk of a lot of egg on faces.
Shy[edit]
Master Marsh, who made the judgement, is a former partner of Collyer Bristow, the law firm who previously acted for Mr Whyte at the time of the Rangers takeover.
Marsh resigned from Collyer Bristow in February 2012 before his appointment as a Master of the High Court Chancery Division from 12 March 2012.
There is no suggestion that Marsh has been directly involved with Whyte and a spokeswoman for the judiciary said: “Master Marsh was a member of Collyer Bristow LLP until 28 February 2012, before he took up his post as Chancery Master. He was aware of a claim against Collyer Bristow and therefore raised his previous connection with Collyer Bristow LLP with the parties at the outset in case in case they felt he should recuse himself. All the parties, including Mr Whyte, were content for the judge to deal with the case. Master Marsh’s former connection with Collyer Bristow LLP has no bearing on the case.”
___
Blimey
Sorry should say “collectively failing to agree a means”
yourhavingalaugh says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 20:23
Does anyone know if Sevco have set their season book prices for next season yet or has the recent events put a lid back on this ,when they do come out I imagine the take up will be slower than a one legged horse in a one horse race,surely most clubs have set some kind of figure to release in the not too distant future or have some been advised to hang fire,this would give us a clue to some chicannery being cooked up.
=========================================================
At some stage Rangers, like every other club. will announce prices and put STs on sale.
There are a lot of serious decisions to be made by clubs in setting ST prices and various parameters and projections to be looked at. It’s all made more difficult by the current economic position which I think could hit ST sales for all clubs. I include Celtic in this as once ST holders stop attending matches then the next step is to take a decision nit toi renew but just buy a ticket as and when. This obviously has a negative effect on financial planning.
I think the Rangers situation will be ‘handled’ well enough to ensure that there is no melt-down in ST sales otherwise the NEDS would have probably walked away and left Green to it. In that event the club would have gone into melt-down and trading would probably have been suspended.
As to chicanery I actually don’t know what you are implying – there are lots of marketing measures employed to sell STs and every club uses them – sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong but that is hardly chicanery in my book.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 20:05
Interesting, yes or no?
KAL Accountants @KALAccountants 3h
@CelticResearch @mikefstv It’s dates Whyte was talking to Octopus that are interesting. Oct 2010. Entire deal hinged on these negotiations
——————————————————————————————————————
I seem to remember months ago Green in one of his torrent of throwaway remarks commented that he had been asked by investors about investing in Rangers in Autumn 2010. He skited over the comment as just an informal type of conversation from memory and I didn’t really give it as much attention as I probably should have.
But it’s out there and I will have it somewhere but perhaps someone more organised than myself can lay their hands on it instantly as it might have a lot more significance than I thought at the time.
Ecobhoy
missed my point entirely,never mind.
Stewie Milne’s behaviour today has been an absolute disgrace and not worthy of the Chairman of such a fine club as Aberdeen and it’s fans.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 20:27
What, if anything, has Mr Doncaster achieved in his time at the SPL????
I personally don’ t give a monkeys about the mechanics of the reconstruction but it was the only show in town to offer any change to fairerdistribution of income and the reunification of governing bodies in the game, and it appears thatthis proposal was acceptable tto SG and St Mirren previously. The actions of Ross County weremisguided but based on fans demands St Mirren’s actions were clearly not based on the club’s own interests but upon some external factor , hence the anger.
It is now clear given the statements by Celtic Aberdeen and United that change of any description is off the table and a poisonous atmosphere now prevails. If I were a Morton fan my contempt for St Mirren would now be complete. The SFL 1 clubs have been shafted here. They will have to struggle with the status quo. In 2 or 3 or 4 years when Ross County have been relegated and Saints subsumed by some further incarnation of Rangers aided and abetted by the divided and useless governing bodies to some ersatz Old Firm duopoly I suspect their fans as much as all other fans will come to regret the asinine decision taken today.
No problem with St Mirrens vote , of course they are looking out for their club ,based on past performances they would be in the 2nd 8 along with the Dons fighting it out , SM must think he has a time machine to bring in the ’83 team and his head of hair. I can’t believe this guy is a multi millionaire , our attendances are woeful , no disrespect to Patrick , Morton or Falkirk but what does he think our attendances would be like after the 8 split.
Rangers International
58.00p
-7.50p (-11.45%)
I would think that if this continues and the 50p barrier is breached this week then trading might be suspended.
Also interesting to note a new record. For the first time Rangers shares are below those of Celtic. Not that it means a lot in reality but when Rangers were at 94p the Bears were ecstatic at how well their shares amd market cap were doing in contrast to Celtic.
Since April 11 the Rangers share price has fallen off a cliff and it seems to me if they want to prevent share suspension that the last throw of the dice is an amicable departure on health grounds for Green.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:07
Aye, they should have suspended him, probably too late now.
There has been a lot of finger pointing today regarding the rejection of league re-construction.
For my tuppence worth I think it was a good decision.
This whole re-construction nonsense has not been investigate enough. The fans that I spoken to don’t want it. I would not want to watch my team play 20 games only to see me miss out on a top eight spot by two or three points only to see the team that I’m fifteen points clear of ending up on the same points as my team and then starting all over again.
I would rather the SPLwent to the Austrian authorities and asked them why they’re version of this crumbled after a few short years!
Why was this?
League re-construction only became a ‘must have’ after a certain team imploded before that it had all the pace of a tortoise.
The SPL is clearly broken and has been for some time. I would like to see why the money that was going to be distributed to the First Division teams could not be disagregated to teams in a sixteen or eighteen team league. Some CEO’s seem to suggest that TV and sponsors are not interested in a league this size however it is this very money that has driven clubs to spend more than they can afford to either attain a place in the SPL or retain it.
If I was looking for real radical change I would have made it know that, on signing this current TV deal, that clubs would have been told they had the duration of this contract to get their financial houses in order because at the end of this deal there would not be another one.
Football fans in this country continually harp on about the bloated and unsustainable EPL and yet we are currently operating exactly the same model but on a smaller scale. This is madness.
Sure there does need to be TV coverage and we should spend the remainder of the current deal looking at what is actually best for the game. A Saturday nights highlight package would at least be a start so that the youth, remember these are the future customers of our sport, can actually watch the highlights and perhaps even connect with a club instead of being drawn to the English highlights and then demanding a Chelsea, Man Utd or any other teams top.
We really need to look at every aspect of why football in Scotland is failing instead of jumping from one disasterous league setup to another.
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:04
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 20:27
What, if anything, has Mr Doncaster achieved in his time at the SPL????
———————————————————————————————————
I made it quite clear in my comments that I was referring purely to the reconstruction issue failure and the statement issued by Celtic. Time is precious to me and I have much better things to do than inspect chicken entrails as to Doncaster’s performance in general.
There are mechanisms to do that and it’s up to fans to pressure their clubs into applying them if they believe Doncaster is personally corrupt or inept to the point of requiring termination of his contract.
I certainly don’t personally have any concrete evidence of the above but perhaps others do and if they have then I will of course consider it but I have the feeling it will mainly be conjecture and hot air. As I mentioned before only those involved at the top level in the organisation are likely to have this kind of info if, indeed, it exists.
So unless Whyte has the tapes I won’t hold my breath but will continue to try and influence the things which I believe I have some chance of success with.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:07
I do not think that Green’s departure would settle the markets – they must be spooked as to whether the IPO can be found to be valid – given that there may be no assets to support the share issue – or at least a dispute over the assets could take a long time to unravel.
Echobhoy
Mental health grounds surely 😉
scapaflow14 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:10
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:07
Aye, they should have suspended him (green), probably too late now.
——————————————————————————————————
As I have stated before he should actually have been fired on the spot by the Board for his racist remark to a fellow employee and escorted from the building with only personal belongings excluding diaries, correspondence, phones and computers. If he had objected then call the cops and have him ejected clutching a black bin bag.
That kind of resolve might have convinced the market that the NEDS had the b*lls to deal with what is coming but, as you say, it is probably too late.
Nope
Nobody, especially Peter Lawell makes controversial throwaway comments when he doesn`t have to
Lawell praised the incompetent Donkey in todays statement when he could have
ignored him
The coded message?
Celtic are tacitly endorsing Donkey`s public utterances
And what was the last significant utterance of the Donkey?
Last Week
The Donkey said something to the effect that
“If the proposals (12 12 18 ) do not get approved by the SPL we wtll support whatever alternative proposal the SFL come up with”
Its not difficult to work that one out
,,,,,,,,,,, Lawell reckons TRFC are so poorly equipped on the park they will not be a serious competitor for the nexr 3 years at least.
Therefore
,,,,,,,,,,,,the only real downside to TRFC working their way up the leagues is to hit Celtic financially
Meaning
———-Celtic want Sevco in a breakaway SPL2
And
The SPL will immediately recognise a breakaway SPL2 as the promotion/relegation league for SPL1
ecobhoy says: Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:07
——————————-
I’m sure that you are aware that comparing the actual share prices is a meaningless measure as Celtic have 91M shares in circulation while Rangers have 65M
In order to have a comparative market cap to Celtic at today’s price, the RIFC share price would have to be 82p+
iceman63 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:05
I personally don’ t give a monkeys about the mechanics of the reconstruction but it was the only show in town to offer any change to fairerdistribution of income and the reunification of governing bodies in the game, and it appears thatthis proposal was acceptable tto SG and St Mirren previously. The actions of Ross County weremisguided but based on fans demands St Mirren’s actions were clearly not based on the club’s own interests but upon some external factor , hence the anger.
It is now clear given the statements by Celtic Aberdeen and United that change of any description is off the table and a poisonous atmosphere now prevails. If I were a Morton fan my contempt for St Mirren would now be complete. The SFL 1 clubs have been shafted here. They will have to struggle with the status quo. In 2 or 3 or 4 years when Ross County have been relegated and Saints subsumed by some further incarnation of Rangers aided and abetted by the divided and useless governing bodies to some ersatz Old Firm duopoly I suspect their fans as much as all other fans will come to regret the asinine decision taken today.
—————————————————————————————————————–
Deary me Icey, this must be just about the worst post you have ever made, where to begin?
You can start by please providing evidence to back up your wild and derogatory slur that SMFC have clearly not based their decision on their own clubs interests or fans views. 😯 ps; a cqn article will not do.
ecobhoy says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:26
Completely agree, but at risk of stereotyping Rangers, sacking him for his racist comments was never on the cards.
Now they will just have to live with it, its been a funny old day!
Brenda says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 18:30
Given the events at the weekend I thought that the priority for TRFC would be to announce who is going to sit on the independent inquiry into the alledged links between TGEF and CG.
Chris mck (@Chrismck3) says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:25
Echobhoy
Mental health grounds surely 😉
——————————————————————–
I believe the term is ‘mental exhaustion’ brought about by his single-handed Herculean and ceaseless effort to save his beloved Rangers which he found late in life broken in an Ibrox gutter. We wish him bon voyage and a full recovery and he will always have our thanks for what he has done. No man could have loved his club more.
Have a long and happy retirement in France Charles and don’t call us and we won’t sue you. Btw you can keep the history but that doesn’t include the cups and the medals and Her Majesty has specifically ordered the return of the Loving Cup.
Yadda yadda yadda!
I’ve got it sorted , sky will be ever so happy , I propose a spl superleague of 2 clubs , play each other 38 times a year , no relegation ever , vast tv deal can pay any A & E costs ,
bobferris70 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 17:05
Willie Miller on Sportsound Extra rubbished the idea of a bigger league, saying does no-one remember the 18 team leagues of the past which were terrible (can’t recall his exact phrasing). Many others bring this up but they clearly haven’t given much thought to it.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I remember the terrible days of playing each other twice,
I also remember going to full houses (in bigger stadiums before all seating) for away games at pittodrie, dens park, easter road, tyncastle, tannadice,rugby park ,Ibrox,sommerset, dens park etc. etc.
When Celtic or Rangers visited away grounds it was once a season and interesting for the home fans, when teams on a good run of form played celtic or rangers, whether home or away they had a good shout at getting something of them.
I also remember one club producing a team full of scots players who won the european cup
And a second team from same club a few seasons later who were beaten finalists in european cup.
Another team from the same city beaten finalists in the European in the cup winners cup
Same club a few seasons later winning the European cup winners cup
A club from up the east coast also winning the european cup winners cup
Same club winning the european super cup(beating the european champions)
Same club getting to semi final of european cup winners cup
Something like 10 major trophies in 7 years
Another club from up the east coast being beaten finalists in the european cup winners cup and beating barcelona home and away
Same club beaten european cup semi finalists
Again winners of several major trophies and beaten finalists runners up countless times.
Both the east coast clubs consistently beating the Glasgow clubs for several years
I remember Scotland qualifying for every world cup finals from 1974 to 1990 then again in 1998 after missing out on the 94 finals
Every top team in the England was filled with genuine top and a few world class scots and every season the english teams who were winning the leagues, cups and european trophies had several players who had learned their trade in Scotland.
So for me, I would take back the 18 team league where we play each other twice, especially with relegation play offs thrown in.
Who in all honesty wants to watch any two teams play each other maybe 6 times a season if drawn in cups, its repetitive,boring, mind numbing and of very little interest to anyone who wants to watch a genuine competition.
Long Time Lurker says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:33
Brenda says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 18:30
Given the events at the weekend I thought that the priority for TRFC would be to announce who is going to sit on the independent inquiry into the alledged links between TGEF and CG.
————————————————————————————————————————-
There are two priorities – stabilise the share price and prevent suspension. For whoever looks at the evidence to affect these factors they would require to be a truly unimpeachable person acceptable to the Scottish Establishment and The City.
But can you get that calibre when whatever decision they make is likely to spark the ire of fans and we all know where that can lead in terms of intimidation and harassment of family members.
Of course it has been obvious for a long time that a bitter PR campaing has been getting waged on Darkside sites with a lot of relatively new posters supporting Green. Where are they from and I don’t believe they can all be undercover Tims intent on mischief. I think that Green actually might split the Rangers support quite badly and tbh that might be no bad thing and finally let the decent supporters emerge and be able to influence the direction of the club on what could prove to be a very long road back.
spanishcelt says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:37
Great post SC and totally agree on the inherent repetitiveness of our current structure.
I would follow my fellow Bud Bill Leckie’s promotion of a 16 team league and a split. The Polish league has recently adopted this structure and it would allow and increased league plus 37 games to be played.
http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/europe/12302-poland-s-ekstraklasa-revamps-its-league-structure-for-2013-14-season
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4887547/Gilmour-is-only-man-to-crack-this-case.html#ixzz2QYQ1dn5C
Interesting day and some interesting opinions. I think there’s been some scaremongering and misinformation by some clubs which is worthy of the MSM at their very worst. Milne talks of major short and medium term implications which could seriously damage the game. He offers no explanation of what this could be but I’m going to assume he’s talking about financial implications. Its been stated that the TV deal (does anyone have the figures yet?) would not change regardless of the outcome of todays vote which just leaves the SPL looking for a sponsor for next season. This hardly sounds like a disaster for Scottish football. Ten SPL clubs thought the pros outweighed the cons but could not convince St Mirren or Ross county otherwise and I say well done to them for standing their ground.
easyJambo says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:27
ecobhoy says: Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:07
——————————-
I’m sure that you are aware that comparing the actual share prices is a meaningless measure as Celtic have 91M shares in circulation while Rangers have 65M
In order to have a comparative market cap to Celtic at today’s price, the RIFC share price would have to be 82p+
—————————————————————————————————————————-
I am well aware EJ but some audiences aren’t and I don’t include TRFC in that btw.
I did qualify my tongue-in-cheek statement with: ‘Also interesting to note a new record. For the first time Rangers shares are below those of Celtic. Not that it means a lot in reality but when Rangers were at 94p the Bears were ecstatic at how well their shares and market cap were doing in contrast to Celtic’.
🙂
Sorry to say Goosy is absolutely right.
Prenez guarde mes Amis…
‘Neil Doncaster has an impossible job to do at times and he and his team have worked tirelessly to initiate positive change in Scottish football. They should be applauded for their efforts in this regard’
……………………………………………………………..
Why did Celtic feel it necessary to add this comment in support of Doncaster? I notice no other club statement thought it necessary to thank Doncaster?
Doncaster the man who actively pushed for SEVCO to be allowed into the SPL? The same man who spent every opportunity predicting a financial death for Scottish football if SEVCO didn’t get into the SPL…
Who at Celtic wrote this statement?
I said a year ago Celtic’s silence on the whole shambles was wrong…and I was told by some it was the right thing to do?
Well a year down the line and I am convinced more than ever that Celtic need to stand up and be counted on the shear dishonesty and corruption we have seen being played out in front of us which makes them either complicit or cowards…the fear of upsetting the civil disorder gang is no longer acceptable…
Someone has to grab this by the throat and say it like it is…for the sake of Scottish Football..
One interesting point rising from Doncaster’s interview is his refusal to answer questions or even hypotheticals because the absence of “a mandate” from the SPL clubs.
Assuming he is always so fastidious about the chain of command, whose mandate did he hold when he was trying to scare everyone into accepting that Rangers were indispensable to Scottish football and telling us that liquidation was no different from a CVA, thus opening the door to the Continuity Rangers.
And whose mandate was he following when he tried to threaten the SFL clubs over the Sevco to D1 move?
There was a time on here when anyone who got up Doncaster’s nose was lauded. Stuart Gilmour seems to be the exception. The vilification of Gilmour betrays a worrying lack of perspective based on nothing more than that he agrees with Charles Green.
Perhaps I am more in sympathy with SG because my own opinion on the restructuring is that it was laughable, bonkers, and despite that, still totally wrong for the Scottish game.
The whole restructuring debate in my view has been driven by the Rangers demise. Good or bad as the plans may have been, the haste with which they have been progressed is worrying because there was no time for proper dialogue or for a properly transparent airing of views and solicitation of ideas. There’s another big WHY right there.
I think that the game at the top is driven only by money with sporting integrity and vision a very poor second and third. To that end I don’t trust Gilmour very much, but no less than I do any of the other SPL heads of state. These are the people who got us into this mess. These are the guys who appointed the Doncasters of this patch. These are the guys who have sat back and allowed the insult to our collective intelligence through the pantomime redrawing and on-the-hoof invention of rules to accommodate a club which had denied them all cash and opportunity.
Are we really calling Gilmour the fall guy here?
It may be that in a couple of years we will thanking him.
[I am assuming that the Celtic statement was written and/or approved by PL.]
Well then, if PL feels a need to publicly express an opinion about Doncaster’s input, I do wonder what PL’s opinion is about the efforts “to initiate positive change in Scottish football” by Regan…or Longmuir…or even Ogilvie ?
Does PL believe that any of these guys has had a positive impact on Scottish football over the last year or so ? Or was he in fact happy with their performance ?
I too am mystified at Celtic going out of their way to congratulate Stuart Doncaster for what looks like an almighty balls-up all round. Although today’s vote was enacted by the twelve angry men of the SPL, they were voting on a tripartite resolution of the SFL, SPL & SFA. Why not mention Messrs. Longmuir & Ogilvie?
I have stated before, and continue to believe, that Celtic want Ibrox FC in the top league post haste. Is this a condition of the Sky deal? Is it worth losing the Celtic fans that would find this unpalatable? Compare and contrast this statement with the mildest possible one expressing “surprise” that Rangers were not stripped of titles won by cheating.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of today’s decision, it has guaranteed less bums on seats next season. Is there anything our clubs cannot screw up?
Jim Spence @bbcjimspence 1h
Just spoken to one SPL chairman who says as far as he and four other clubs are concerned reconstruction debate is over.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
Have you still not got it yet! League reconstruction is now off the table. Regardless of our views of the size of the league or playoffs or voting structures or the timing of these changes they were concrete proposals . No grandiose notions noridealised pland will come to anything. We had a proposal for change. It eas better than the status quo. Individuals with agendas have simply scuppered change with no prospect of any alternative. At best they were misguided and naive at worst one of the refuseniks has a sinister agenda.
With respect to all who have commented on the P. Lawwell reference to Neil Doncaster, I think we’re missing the nuances of what he says. He doesn’t say that ND has done a good job.
A read between the lines says to me that he doesn’t want to criticise a guy who has done his level best, and it just wasn’t good enough. He has a thankless job at times, and he and his team have worked hard, says PL.
This could be ND’s swansong. Only my opinion. Meantime, I get the feeling that C.Green outsmarted everybody again. On this occasion I’m not too bothered. 12-12-18 was plain daft.
The CE says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:44
4 3 Rate This
spanishcelt says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 21:37
Great post SC and totally agree on the inherent repetitiveness of our current structure.
I would follow my fellow Bud Bill Leckie’s promotion of a 16 team league and a split. The Polish league has recently adopted this structure and it would allow and increased league plus 37 games to be played.
http://www.insideworldfootball.com/world-football/europe/12302-poland-s-ekstraklasa-revamps-its-league-structure-for-2013-14-season
————–
Great link about the revamped Polish setup CE. We’ll probably have that put forward as a new idea for Scotland by the SPL & SFL … in 10 years time 😀
I’d go as far as 3 up 3 doon.
paulmac2 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:02 (Edit)
I said a year ago Celtic’s silence on the whole shambles was wrong…and I was told by some it was the right thing to do?
Well a year down the line and I am convinced more than ever that Celtic need to stand up and be counted on the shear dishonesty and corruption we have seen being played out in front of us which makes them either complicit or cowards…the fear of upsetting the civil disorder gang is no longer acceptable…
Someone has to grab this by the throat and say it like it is…for the sake of Scottish Football..
_____________________________________________________________________
Paulmac
That only makes sense if you assume that Celtic (or any other club for that matter) WANT to stand up and be counted. I think the commercial imperative and the fans’ reaction are the main protagonists in all of their dilemmas.
To paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut,
“If the fans think their club chairman is their friend, then they sure don’t need an enemy.”
The threat of public disorder or MSM attacks only works as an excuse if we give up totally on the notion of Scottish football as a sport, but still want to participate in the charade.
I don’t believe the threat is as real as people are making out either. Keyboard commandos do not automatically transform themselves into sidewalk warriors – although it does suit some folk to have us believe that is the case.
Celtic’s comments re. Doncaster may well be the kiss of death. I would not be surprised to see him exit stage front!
Danish Pastry says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:25
I should declare I am conflicted here Danish, my better half is Polski and I have adopted her home town team Korona Kielce as my ‘Polish Team’ and have a strong affection for the Polish game in general. Strangely enough in the last game I went to over there they were managed by ex Ranger Dariuz Adamczuk.
Rabo Karabekian says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:29
paulmac2 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:02 (Edit)
Paulmac
That only makes sense if you assume that Celtic (or any other club for that matter) WANT to stand up and be counted. I think the commercial imperative and the fans’ reaction are the main protagonists in all of their dilemmas.
To paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut,
“If the fans think their club chairman is their friend, then they sure don’t need an enemy.”
The threat of public disorder or MSM attacks only works as an excuse if we give up totally on the notion of Scottish football as a sport, but still want to participate in the charade.
I don’t believe the threat is as real as people are making out either. Keyboard commandos do not automatically transform themselves into sidewalk warriors – although it does suit some folk to have us believe that is the case.
……………………………….
I agree…they have to want to stand up and be counted…and I also agree the threat of disorder is over played…if clubs not just Celtic want more fans through their gates for next season…now would be a good time to offer your thoughts on the whole omnishambles….because I can assure you it will not change one thing as far as SEVCO or those trying very hard on their behalf are concerned…
Saying nothing publicly will drive more away!
Does any moderator have a clue as to why my post at 19.51, in reply to madbhoy24941’s earlier post should still be sitting in moderation…? I can’t see the offensive glitch…
[The C word fishnish. I have removed it and posted your comment – BP]
Willmacufree
That was my reading of Celtic’s statement. Not quite an endorsement from the Board a manager gets before being sacked but certainly recognition of the work ND put in on reconstruction.
I can understand and respect St M and RCs decision but the flavour coming over is that somebody has been got at and the clubs think they know who and why and that positions re any leg up for The Rangers are hardening.
The idea that a Celtic Board, full of Celtic supporters coining it in from UEFA money, actually want a club that those on the same Board feels as cheated by as much as the support at large, is absurd to me.
Its oldthink from a time now gone. The one club who do desperately want a return to those days play in blue at Ibrox and Celtic can live very well without them.
They do however have a self interest in promoting as competitive a league was possible without The Rangers where games like the SC semis become more of a norm.
I thought Dundee Utd played splendidly at weekend. Missed Falkirk Hibs but watched Hearts v St Mirren LC final but some great stuff on show there.
Another thing. I thought we were fairly smart on this blog, but today’s response,regarding reconstruction, has left me very disappointed.
All through this charade most clubs on this blog pulled more or less together. Today saw a lot of nasty comment directed at some of our fellow blogger’s clubs. This is not good enough. I ask my fellow posters to pull back and let it go. We must at all cost keep our eye on the bigger picture.
Reconstruction was IMHO was a non runner.When you see the calibre of the officers trying to push through this, panic driven measure, and what they attempted to foist on Scottish football in the past eighteen months I think we will be thanking those two clubs for seeing through the smoke and mirrors.
Senior says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:53
One of the better posts today, I am also stunned at the vitriol directed at STM and RC over a hastily concocted and unpopular plan.
Your comments have been noted 😉
I await a statement from Stewart Gilmour before further comment
Senior says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 22:53
11 8 Rate This
Hear, hear!
I saw Neil Doncaster on Sky Sports tonight.
Did I hear him say something like “people should stop running down Scottish football as it is not in as bad a way as they suggest’? (I’ve paraphrased as I think I was momentarily struck dumb by such an utterance….)
Was he not part of the double act prophesying Armageddon some few short months ago? Running down the Scottish game and thereby jeopardising sponsorship?
Have I fallen into some strange parallel universe?
madbhoy24941 says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:01
For all the St. Mirren fans currently outraged at all those paranoid Celtic fans I would like to add something.
Firstly let me state for the record, I believe it was and remains the right of every club to vote as they believe is right. I would also like to state that I am not one of those conspiracy theorists.
I also don’t believe the structure proposed is the best but as I couldn’t come up with better, I was willing to accept it was worth trying.
I also believe SG voted the right way for his club and that is where the big problem lies; this was meant to be a change to benefit all teams. Celtic are continuously (including the last hours) mocked for acting only in their own selfish interests yet all of the vocal St. Mirren fans today have been saying that SG has to do only what is in the best interest of his club.. Sorry but I don’t get that.
…………………..
And you certainly shouldn’t have got that from MY posts… or else you didnae think I was a Buddie?
I can’t find examples of me saying SG was solely covering Saints’ bum nor that he’d be justified to do so, but I can find examples of me citing where he was trying to do things for the good of Scottish fitba, for its financial stability and for the clubs below the SPHell. And it takes ridding the game of the 11-1 built-in bias in voting to achieve that.
That desire of SG and Saints is far from being self-serving.
As fans, we’ve been so low for so long that I doubt we’d know how to feel paranoia. However, I didn’t bother posting on here today till I saw one too many ‘persons’ jumping on it being a Rongers conspiracy vis a vis Green at SMP; that Saints had been told to change their mind to fast forward the blue meanies redemption; and that the world would fall apart tomorrow just because of Paisley people voting as they wished in the time honoured, ‘democratic’ 11-1 manner…
I thought that was more than a bit rich and reacted. Perhaps I was not wee-diddy-club supine enough in my protests? If so, sorry…
I know you mean well, madbhoy24941… most people on here, do. But sometimes… just sometimes… we wee-diddies feel a need to speak up.
…………………………………………………………………………………….
PS
THIS IS A SOLID, SENSIBLE POST.
Galling fiver says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 19:22
Sorry if it’s been said already, but in the present climate, maybe someone doesn’t want the pyramid structure as they might not get back in if they go bust.
mirrenman says:
Monday, April 15, 2013 at 23:16
==========================
Senior, the reason for the plethora of comment against St Mirren is because that club was clearly in favour of reconstruction at the end of January and, for no good reason, changed its mind recently, coincidentally following several discussions between that club’s chairman and Charles Green, sometime CEO of a club which has no connection wtih the SPL and only associate membership of the SFL.
Gilmour now needs to come clean on precisely when he met or spoke to Green, what the content of those discussion was and why his club has changed its mind for, at present, seemingly no good reason.
Genuine football fans are.rightly suspicious, after the events of last summer, of attempts to promote Sevco into a higher league without regard to sporting merit.
At the same time, the role of David Longmuir, head of the SFL and someone who, prior to his various discussions with Charles Green in March, was very much in favour of the proposed reconstruction, has also been called into question. The common denominator is Green, a man whose probity has itself been severely called into question, not least by his own board.
Answers are required as quickly as possible This weekend saw four clubs provide marvellous footballing entertainment in the cup semi finals, the SPL remains, per capita, the best supported league in the EU.
Yet the vast majority of our football press, print, online, radio and TV spend most of their time running down our game and repeatedly giving the oxygen of publicity to those who would shamelessly promote a club of less than 12 months’ standing, whose present finances are believed to be at best parlous into a higher league without merit,
Who are you to say that the ordinary fan has no right to question the motives of those whose actions, at present, remain inexplicable?