With the introduction of VAR to Scottish football our football media, exposure to the on line, audio and print world has been akin to living in Plato’s Cave where debate/discussion concentrates on the shadows reflected on the wall by the light of a fire: (PLATO ON: The Allegory of the Cave – YouTube )
The shadows take the following shapes.</p?
- Was it handball?
- What is handball?
- Was it a penalty?
- Was it offside?
- What are offside rules anyway?
- Do referees know them?
- Do they apply them with any degree of consistency?
All are of interest as they are scrutinised, dissected and disputed, but they all ignoring the biggest shadow of the biggest animal in the cave:- that of the elephant called ” trust”.
In the context of Scottish football, ever since the game became professional, referees in Scotland have never been trusted because of the demographic peculiarities of Scotland, a peculiarity created as a by-product of historical events in Scotland and its near neighbours Ireland and England.
With such a diverse populace tribal distrust of the other is a fertile breeding ground to grow and take life, like unattended weeds choke a garden.
In the Plato’s Cave allegory the commentator suggests the way out of the cave is by philosophical education and if you watch the video, one description of his guidance on such education is “dialogue.”
So what is dialogue?
“ Dialogue is a conversation on a common subject between two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose of which is for each participant to learn from the other so that s/he can change and grow. This very definition of dialogue embodies the first commandment of dialogue.
If we approach another party to either defeat them or to learn about them so as to deal more effectively with her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we face each other at all in confrontation–sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we are convinced that we alone have the absolute truth, we are indulging in debate and not dialogue.
But dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each party must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at any point we might find the other party’s position so persuasive that, if we would act with integrity, we would have to change, and change can be disturbing.
The parties must be prepared to come to the dialogue as persons ready to put aside their own needs and wants, at least for a time. They must be ready to listen, without judgement, to the thoughts and feelings as expressed by the other person in the exchange. The parties must be prepared to accept that reaching agreement may not be achieved, although that might occur, but dialogue will lead to both parties, through a better understanding of the others’ needs and wants, to being able to live amicably with their differences.”
How, then, can Scottish football supporters as key stakeholders in the game via their own club supporter organisations and the likes of The Scottish Football Supporters Association (SFSA)? How can the clubs themselves effectively engage in a meaningful dialogue?
There are 10 “Commandments in the Original Dialogue Decalogue by Leonard Swidler that can be read at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iGs5NDx08g1O5A1PdUjBCfTN6foSHmk0hifUwO3-Djc/edit
but the following two are particularly apt in terms of acknowledging the presence of the particular elephant in our own Scottish football cave in order to drag it out and into the light?
SEVENTH COMMANDMENT: Dialogue can take place only between equals. Both must come to learn from each other. Therefore, if, for example, one party views the other as inferior, or if one party views the other as superior, there will be no dialogue. If authentic relationship dialogue is to occur between the parties, then both must come mainly to learn from each other; only then will it be “equal with equal,”. This rule also indicates that there can be no such thing as a one-way dialogue.
EIGHTH COMMANDMENT: Dialogue can take place only on the basis of mutual trust, which must be built. A dialogue among persons can be built only on personal trust. Hence it is wise not to tackle the most difficult problems in the beginning, but rather to approach first those issues most likely to provide some common ground, thereby establishing the basis of trust. Then, gradually, as this personal trust deepens and expands, the more thorny matters can be undertaken. Thus, as in learning we move from the known to the unknown. So in dialogue we proceed from commonly held matters, which, given our mutual ignorance resulting from possibly years of misunderstanding and possibly hostility in the relationship, may take us quite some time to discover fully–to discuss matters of disagreement.
Philosophy/dialogue is all very well but what can it do to bring about the required level of trust?
The advice above is via small steps and one small step but with huge benefits would be the introduction of transparency to the VAR process. This could be done in the reasonable short term by making conversation between referees and VAR assistant audible to all.
It is a technical approach but with behaviour changing consequences because observed behaviour changes that of those being observed. It need not be live during a game but at very least released within half an hour of a match ending. It brings in transparency which is the forerunner to accountability and would be a game changer.
Longer term strategy for culture change to improve professionalism of referees, which the proposal by Sentinel Celts Calling Out Scottish Referees – SENTINELCELTS sets out should be part of a longer terms strategy for changing the culture of the referee service with the ultimate aim of making refereeing a very rewarding professional career and be fertile territory for dialogue between all stakeholders, not least referees themselves.
One less for JC .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-65523955
paddy malarkey
8th May 2023 at 12:21
‘..One less for JC…’
+++++++++Ha, ha, pm.
I almost feel sorry for Whyte and Grier
But my contempt for the wretches at the BBC who wrote this has not in the least diminished:
“However, under Whyte’s stewardship, the Rangers business went into administration and then liquidation in 2012”
The entity that went into Liquidation and which is still in Liquidation there was the Rangers Football Club plc.
TRFC is a new football club founded and admitted into Scottish football in 2012.
And the wretched liars know themselves to be gutless, pretendy ‘journalists’ who soil the profession.
paddy malarkey
6th May 2023 at 14:26
Is there a reason why there’s no Coronation Cup competition this time round ?
I would postulate that the clubs, especially the big rich ones in the EPL would not want to take part in another tournament that would interrupt their European prospects or their fight for a lucrative top 4 finish. If they were forced to participate they would probably field weakened teams as many of them already do in their own English Cup.
My comments above lead me on to my favourite moan re English football. It’s the arrogant way they don’t put the word “English” in front of their competitions while every one else has to. For example their Cup competition is labelled as the FA Cup and the whole world has to know it’s the English Cup while every other country has to add the country’s name. You can add your own example even outside football. Don’t misunderstand me I’m not anti English but this trait annoys me.
Ballyargus
8th May 2023 at 16:52
‘…but this trait annoys me..’
+++++
Well, Ballyargus, I know what you mean in so far as Englanders have to be reminded that ‘England’ is not another word for ‘the UK’. (I love it when some prat of a politician has to correct himself for using ‘England’ when he means ‘the UK’).
However, when we ourselves make sure that the ‘Open’ means our ‘Open’ without ‘Scottish’, and not the American or other ‘Open’, I can live with the English FA’s claim to primacy!
God, I’m so fair-minded that I astonish myself!
May be of interest to some?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2kpSPBLUvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUlKVjmvOs&t=1637s
Next .
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/kenny-barclay-leave-rangers-finance-29939328
Pedant alert
@JohnClark although organised by the R&A “The Open” is the UK Open in reality. It is certainly held in Scotland but also Norn Iron (Royal Port Rush) and several courses in England and Scotland including of course (no pun intended) the Old Course. Wales doesn’t appear to have hosted probably because it lacks a Links course of sufficient stature. This years will be at Royal Liverpool
The Scottish Open is usually the week before and in recent years has been fixed at North Berwick.
The Rangers investor information page has yet to be updated to reflect the discounted share transfer to Club1872 which restored the organisation to a 5% holding. Club1872 representatives met the new chairman in London earlier this month and state on their website that it was cordial and that they believe that fan involvement and investment will be welcomed in the future. Why so reluctant or tardy to let potential investors know the current levels of shareholding? I am assuming that the board must know the current state of affairs. Club1872 being the recipients of the shares definitely know but they also seem rather coy.
https://www.rangers.co.uk/investor-information/3xiJwTahGEhZWGZAUcKMy1
tykebhoy
10th May 2023 at 11:04
‘…@JohnClark although organised by the R&A…’
+++++++
I’ll defer, of course, to your wider knowledge.!
Not being a golfer myself I just thought Scotland was the home of golf and ‘The Open’ was the first significant golf tournament, and markets itself as that!
Went to the bother of turning up at Court 11 in Parliament House this morning only to find out that there was nothing on in that court room. A journalist had also turned up expecting like me to attend the scheduled hearing relating to blocked RIFC plc shareholders.
Enquiries could elicit nothing other than that Lord Richardson was in another Court-room on an unconnected matter. By half-past 9, we still couldn’t find out what the score was, so I just went home.
The hearing may have taken place after I left, when or if Lord Richardson was free, or it may have been by webex!
Or it may have been suddenly postponed, or feckin well withdrawn for all Joe Public would know!
There were no notices on the notice-boards about any of the day’s business, such as there may have been [ very quiet, indeed, with some painters painting the walls in the wee corridor which has the doors of Courts 10,11, and 12]
Albertz11
9th May 2023 at 17:06
That interview will only be of interest of those like you who wish to believe the MYTH that somehow Rangers avoided going BANKRUPT and have NOT existed since 2012.
Craig Houston in that interview keeps talking about company and Paul Murray kept saying Charles Green bought the club – he NEVER did buy Rangers football Club – he bought the remaining assets of the Rangers Football Club – the ground etc – that was put into BANKRUPTCY then and are still going through that process just now and he then formed a NEW football club using those assets and then gave it a name similar to the old one.
The ONLY way that the original Rangers would have managed to survive is if they or someone paid their massive debts off – did this happen – NO – hence why they were put into BANKRUPTCY and have NOT existed as a football club/company since then.
And do not give us your drivel about the separate club/company crap – maybe you could explain how no other football club or company has thought of that wizard wheeze to avoid their debts and bankruptcy before or since this new FAKE Rangers supposedly did it to avoid paying their massive debt.
Albertz11
9th May 2023 at 17:06
I carry no torch but an absolute disgrace how Rangers were discarded by a knight of the realm who went on to claim ‘not my fault guv’. The circles ,magic or not, in which he moves have afforded outrageous protection subsequently. It has been raised earlier Albertz11 perhaps you can now assist in the question of the missing 5 stars on the shirts and maybe comment on the current shareholding as to who ensured Club1872 could still have some influence??
Gunnerb
Don’t hold your breath when asking A11 to be transparent, humble and honest about the history of what he/she would call Rangers FC (1872 – ) as it can only end in disappointment for you ie you will be ‘dingied’
I asked said poster back in March if he/she believed that entity had been consigned to liquidation – stll waitin on a response.
55 Scottish League titles (and counting no doubt!) my a***!
gunnerb 13/05 16.18.
No info re-5 stars (will try and find out) and as for Club1872, despite a recent meeting in London with John Bennett my position regarding any influence they may have or hope to have has not changed. They are a busted flush and will remain so unless there are wholesale changes in the Board, The attendance at their recent AGM tells you that.
bect67 13/05
Despite your comment i do try to respond to questions when they are directed specifically toward me. However when every post is placed in moderation it becomes difficult to reply in a timely manner.
As for the question you asked in March (never seen it tbh) i will repeat myself again by saying that there is no point in discussing the subject matter as views on either side are never going to change and any discussion would only result in a further loss of readers to the blog.
A11
Rergarding your comment about never having read I my question of 22nd March 2023 @ 10.37 ( selective amnesia on your part?), I find your final paragraph above, at best, childish, mildly insulting and evasive .
As you well know, my point was, alas forlornly, intended to elicit a ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ answer.
Clearly beyond you dear boy, but I do accept that, for whatever reasons, you will not/ cannot accept that:-
Yir club’s deid (copyright Leigh Griffiths).
Finally, since you appear to have an inside track on TRFC matters, have you heard when the official liquidation date will be announced?
Probably a daft question but I fancy one more go at getting an honest answer from you.
I have to admit I could only suffer watching a few minutes of the Craig Houston/Paul Murray interview and found myself fast-forwarding through what was in any case a tortuous forty minute mix of deliberate factual inaccuracies resulting in the usual rewriting of history.
When the CVA failed in 2012, Duff & Phelps and Charles Green both described Green’s ‘takeover’ as “the purchase of the business and assets of the Rangers Football Club plc.”
I have never, previously or since, heard of such a phrase being used to describe the purchase of any football club, anywhere in the world, in the entire history of the game.
Why, if Green had simply bought the football club, was it not described as just that? Why the need for entirely different terminology? Rangers Football Club had several previous owners during the 140 years of its existence, all of whom had bought the club, not its ‘business and assets,’ so what was different about Green’s transaction that required a specific new parlance?
We all know the answer to that. As Billy Carlin rightly points out in his post above, the club couldn’t be purchased because nobody was prepared to pay its colossal debts, so instead, Green set up his new club utilising the ‘business and assets’ he’d paid for, such as the stadium and intellectual property, including the trading name.
Here we are more than a decade later and the rewriting of history continues unabated.
So many blatant lies concocted following the death of Rangers Football Club become accepted fact through prolonged repetition in the media and by the vested interest of fans and former players. Charles Green “buying the club,” as peddled enthusiastically and repeatedly by Paul Murray in his interview with Houston just illustrates the point.
I’m pretty sure I’ve even read someone from Duff & Phelps using the words ‘club,’ ‘Rangers’ and ‘business and assets’ interchangeably in recent years (ie once D&P were no longer involved with ‘Rangers’), when describing the entity that was purchased by Green, as if they were somehow all identical.
These examples illustrate that ‘a fact’ is more likely to be established in the public perception through the repetition of a lie than by the infrequent telling of the truth, and we’ve long since passed the point at which history has been entirely rewritten about the demise of Rangers Football Club, with inconvenient genuine facts totally airbrushed out of the picture.
Saw this on Twitter and had to chuckle. Hopefully the link works!
I think the expression is that this didn’t age well! https://twitter.com/richiestoke/status/1657976610123833345?s=46&t=M_1GrilzPM2Ad2WKNJAKHg
wokingcelt
15th May 2023 at 20:43
‘…Saw this on Twitter and had to chuckle..’
+++++++
I hadn’t seen that before, wokingcelt, so I had a good belly laugh!
What a bampot!
Highlander
15th May 2023 at 07:06
‘…when describing the entity that was purchased by Green, as if they were somehow all identical’
++++++++++++
Not to mention the blatant nonsense of RIFC plc’s clear insinuation that it is the holding company of RFC of 1872 [ which as we all know has been since 2012 in Liquidation as RFC 2012 plc company number SC 004276] when its website declares [in tiny print!!!] that it is the holding company of TRFC, company number 425159.
Even the Ibrox board are not brass necked enough to openly lie in print on their ‘investors page’.
Perhaps somebody someday will get round to asking serious questions about RIFC plc’s marketing of itself.
I refer to the last line in my post of 15th May 2023 at 22.39
I rather fear that the ‘somebody’ will not come from ‘The Scotsman’!
The sports reporters/sports editor continue to peddle the myth that the ‘Old Firm’ still exists, as witness the headline of today’s piece about a former TRFC player which includes the words ‘Old Firm”
Ironically enough, in a separate self-congratulatory piece’ [ by the very Editor of the paper!] references the fact that his readers ‘placed great value on in-depth, authoritative journalism’.
There has not been much in the ‘Scotsman’ in the way of in-depth, accurate and truthful reporting of the fact of RFC of 1872’s death as football club or of the disgraceful and ridiculous farce staged by the SFA in which a club (that they themselves insisted had to apply as a new club in 2012)is allowed to claim the winning of honours and titles of competitions it was not in existence even to participate in.
The sheer bogging hypocrisy of it all, for filthy lucre’s sake, is disgusting in itself.
The more so to me this last few days after listening to Jeremy Bowen’s account of the heroism of true and truthful journalists in searching for and reporting Truth even at the cost of their lives.
Well, it’s football and it will be in Scotland .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65609338
I was re-reading Lord Bannatyne’s judgment in the Grier case a wee bit earlier tonight because I saw it referenced in a judgment published the other day (on an entirely different matter to do with building contracts!)
And by pure chance I came across this item
https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/detective-involved-doomed-rangers-fraud-29014312
in January I was in Australia and hadn’t seen any reference to this investigation.
As an ordinary person with no specialist knowledge or special access to sources of information I cannot get my head round what motivated Robertson.
I have not seen any outcome of the investigation into him.
Has anyone?
Is he still in post, or suspended?
A fall guy, ready to throw himself on the sword?
If so, on whose behoof?
There’s a bloody good book to be written about the whole bizarre story of the procedurally fcuked up prosecution, I imagine.
I’d love to have the talent and resources to write that story!
Sadly, no investigative journalist has had the desire to write that story, or dig into the phenomenon, the miracle, that a ten-year-old football club has a 150 years of history!
Honest to God!
Grier lost his appeal against no malicious prosecution verdict and Whyte subsequently dropped his case against the PF . I am not sure how this might affect any investigation into DCI Robertson but he looks to be set up as the patsy in any future public enquiry, the clamour for which will surely build given the current air of corruption about Holyrood.
The next podcast in Jeremy Bowen’s ‘Frontlines of Journalism’ [BBC Radio 4] is entitled ‘The Big Lie’.
Sadly, it’s not about the Big Lie at the heart of Scottish Football!
Maybe I should suggest to him that all his reserves of courage would be called upon if he were to question BBC Scotland’s standards of investigative journalism in the sphere of sport?
From the Rolls of Court (yesterday);
“Thursday 25th May
LORD RICHARDSON –TBC, Clerk
Court TBC – Parliament House
Pre-proof By Order
between 9.00m and 10.00am
COS/CA104-22 ATP Investments Ltd v Rangers International Football Club Plc
COS/CA105-22 Norne Anstalt v Rangers International Football Club Plc”
‘Court TBC’ : presumably the decorators are still on the premises!
In court more often than Andy Murray
johnscobiedan
19th May 2023 at 11:53
‘..In court more often than Andy Murray’
++++++++
Ha ha, johnscobiedan,
And with fewer positive results than Andy.
From Ryan Jack’s statement:
“..but it goes without saying that this season has not gone as planned so for me I am delighted that I am going to get the chance next year to go and try and make it a better one.”
Poor chap – and even poorer agent as an agent that allowed him to agree to that wording!
Is it Kent’s fault that ‘the season has not gone as planned’? Of course it isn’t!
Lack of legitimate readies for TRFC (as opposed to the illicit mega millions available for players’ purchases and wages bills through the cheating SDM’s EBT scheme in operation at the dead RFC of 1872) is the cause of the (relatively!) poor season that RIFC has had.
Kent’s contribution to perceived failure is that TRFC can make no money from transfer of him. They equally have no money to buy relatively more expensive players, and clearly no club has been interested in buying him.
Kent should, in my opinion, get himself a better agent.
But then, what I do know?
Or care?
TRFC is a club living a massive sporting lie, in my view.
Those associated with it are therefore, in my view, as tainted and no more to be sympathised with than SDM and those associated with him and RFC of 1872 in its years of falsely-based pomp!
I think I may pen something to that effect to truth-seeking real journalist Jeremy Bowen!
The Thistle/Ayr United game was a real pleasure to watch. Thoroughly enjoyed it.
I have to declare that my late sister was married to a chap (now also ‘late’ some years ago!) whose old man used to work at Firhill.
And on the basis of that flimsy connection I, having no connections of any kind with Ayr, kind of supported Thistle!
John Clark
19th May 2023 at 22:19
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Unless I’m misunderstanding you, I think you might have got *Rangers’ two Ryans mixed up there JC.
One is Kent to be leaving Ibrox while the other won’t Jack it in for another season.
Highlander
20th May 2023 at 11:49
‘… I think you might have got *Rangers’ two Ryans mixed up there JC..
++++++++
Silly of me, Highlander. Apologies to all!
Highlander
20th May 2023 at 11:49
‘…One is Kent to be leaving Ibrox while the other won’t Jack it in for another season’
++++++++
I’ve just re-read that line of your post, Highlander.
My embarrassment at my egregious mistake prevented me from appreciating how clever your play of words is!
Really good.
Interesting use of language in this BBC report. Discuss… https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65646557
wokingcelt
21st May 2023 at 07:57
‘…Interesting use of language in this BBC report. Discuss…’
++++++++
Brennan writes for the BBC: I wouldn’t believe a word he might have to say about liquidated football clubs!
wokingcelt
21st May 2023 at 07:57
Interesting use of language in this BBC report. Discuss… https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65646557
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Both the English clubs involved make abundantly clear on their official websites that they are new clubs with no claim to the history and honours of the clubs they succeeded.
Personally, I have no problem with the current club playing out of Ibrox claiming some form of tenuous link to its defunct predecessor, in view of the shared fans and stadium.
I do take great umbrage though at the preposterous notion that a brand new football club can somehow claim the honours and history of a shamed and cheating club that demonstrably died a self-inflicted death of liquidation, along with the utter absurdity of our vacuous football authorities and media giving credence to such patent ‘same club’ nonsense.
https://gateshead-fc.com/our-club/our-history/
https://fchalifaxtown.com/club/club-statistics/
Highlander
21st May 2023 at 13:52
‘…both the English clubs involved make abundantly clear on their official websites that they are new clubs with no claim to the history and honours of the clubs they succeeded.’
++++++++
Indeed they do, Highlander.
The failure (as it seems to me) of the Scottish Football authorities to acknowledge that TRFC, a club that they themselves admitted as a new applicant for membership of a league and of the SFA, is not and could not possibly be RFC of 1872 marks them out to be shamefully derelict in their duty as the Governance bodies of a sport.
In the same way that (as it appears to me) the Financial regulators by giving the nod to the Prospectus of a PLC in which it is clearly implied that that PLC will be the holding company of RFC of 1872 showed a disgraceful lack of concern for the truth, namely, that RFC of 1872 was NOT brought out of Administration but ceased to exist as a football club participating in Scottish football, and exists merely as a legal entity in Liquidation awaiting dissolution when the Liquidators make their final report and seek discharge.
Companies House has come in for some stick in recent times because it appears to have no checking powers over thousands of newly created scam companies.
The FCA in my opinion appears to be rather faint-hearted in checking the truthfulness of the Prospectuses of would-be plcs. Faint-hearted? Nay, rather, perhaps negligent to a degree bordering, some might say, on the criminal. It may be that some stick should be laid on its back, too!
I’m in perfect agreement with you, Highlander, that there is no harm at all in sentimental attachment to the dead club of one’s forebears.
But there’s every harm to Sporting Integrity in according to TRFC the many sporting titles and trophies of the Liquidated RFC of 1872. ( As there would be if the nonsense of a conference league in which three or four teams [the B teams of clubs in the SPL] would not actually be competing for anything! but that’s another matter)
Just as there would be chaos in the world of Finance if plcs were allowed to tell whoppers in their share-launching efforts.
We really have to get the nonsense sorted. TRFC is no more RFC of 1872 than FC Halifax is Halifax Town Association Football Club of 1911!
In an idle moment I read tonight a BBC report on Everton and then followed the ‘Comments’ thereon.
I came across this comment
“Comment posted by Andrew Mason, at 20:10 22 May Andrew Mason
20:10 22 May
MSP? The Manic Street Preachers are investing? ????
I’ll get my coat”
That ‘I’ll get my coat’ brought back memories of a poster on SFM whose blog name I cannot now remember, but whose posts I always enjoyed.
[I have no great interest in English football and was a wee bit surprised at the state that Everton is in, with some American outfit apparently ready to ‘invest’ mega-millions! and Everton’s massive losses and[apparently] FFP breaches and alleged falsifying in their claims of loss due to Covid.
That kind of thing rang bells with me, for some reason.}
Anyway, I hope the SFM poster who used the ‘I’ll get my coat’ tag is alive and well and still reading SFM.
Morelos, Arfield, McGregor, Helander, and Kent not wanted at Ibrox.
How much is the cumulative wages saving? Will Beale be given a few bob for new players, or are there other bills to be paid first to keep the lights on?
Putting your two posts together JC I guess that’s “Beale get their coats…” sorry!
wokingcelt
23rd May 2023 at 18:39
‘…I guess that’s “Beale get their coats…”
+++++++++
Indeed, wokingcelt, it seems to me that Beale will himself be taking his own coat off the hook and will not be around to build another, better squad!
It was left to him to try to explain how mega-millions-worth of player talent was somehow going to be found and paid for in the close season, and that players who have that talent are going to sign for the kind of club that TRFC is.
The Ibrox board are clearly not unified enough [Geez, how could they be?] to be able to emulate the tax-cheating knight of the realm who once boasted about his club [now dead because of his boast!] being able to spend 100% more than his club’s rivals.
It seems to me that there are bitter divisions as particular interests try to put up a front of unity while each interest tries to work out what may be best for itself.
And poor Beale at any given time is not entirely sure what he should be saying, other than uttering meaningless empty, hollow useless PR words given him by (as it seems to me) people as useless, as it seemed to me, as James (whassisname again?) was!
For balance, I should say that a Board being united and of one mind is only okay if what they are united and one minded of is legally and morally acceptable.
I can think of a club about which there may be a question as to that.
Well, on a very quiet night with nothing much doing football-wise I caught some puzzlement among the ‘open all mikes’ folk on BBC radio Scotland at the apparent fact that a player whose name was not on anyone’s team list was being brought on as a substitute.
I wasn’t free to listen to the full thing so I don’t know what the story was.
I assume that the pundits might have been thinking of the possibility of an ineligible player being introduced, which would mean, I think, that the opposing team would be declared the winners.
Can anyone provide more detailed info?
What a terrible, unsporting and ungentlemanly thing to do, to field ineligible players. Surely no club has ever done that and got away with it!
What’s that you say? There was a club that did that??? Seriously? and for years??
And was not punished appropriately? You’re surely having a laugh! The Football Governance body would surely have been on to that in a flash!
What’s that you say? eh..which club?
Ah, of course! Silly me, got you now!
From the Rolls of Court :
Lord Menzies
Court 12
Tuesday 30 May
Proof (4 days)
Aviva Insurance Ltd v [a named former RFC player and others: nothing to do with RFC/RIFC plc/TRFC so I won’t give the name]
Also from the Rolls
Lord Richardson
Court 8
Thursday June 01
Proof before answer (2 days)
ATP Investments Ltd v RIFC plc
Norne Anstalt v RFC plc
“Pre-match footage showed the majority of the Aberdeen players applauding as the champions ran out but eagle-eyed fans spotted McCrorie, who came through the ranks across the city at Rangers, standing with his hands behind his back instead. Images also appear to show Graeme Shinnie standing with his arms folded rather than applaud.”
Thus reports the DR.
Sportsmen of the year? I think not, and never likely to become such!
Petty, childish behaviour by young men who clearly have no concept of sportsmanship or of professional recognition of the success of others in the same profession.
Says not a lot of good about them as being ordinary decent people with some kind of idea of normal sporting behaviour.
[Perhaps they have SDM as their model?]
John Clark
29th May 2023 at 00:19
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
I was at Celtic Park on Saturday. The announcer stated that Aberdeen intended to do a guard of honour, and when their players entered the pitch to line up they received a decent level of applause from the home crowd. I couldn’t tell you who in the Aberdeen team did or didn’t applaud as Celtic took the field, however I do think the whole guard of honour issue has just become yet another thing in football for people to get upset about. Personally I couldn’t care less whether teams do it or not, and I have to say most of my fellow fans seemed to think the same.
Another one for JC . My nephew plays for Pollok and tells me they’ve signed Kyle Hutton , who once picked up a wage with both RFC and TRFC and had a loan spell with us (meh ). Here’s what Wikipedia says –
Ahead of the 2012–13 season Hutton agreed to transfer to Charles Green’s new holding company saying, “For me, it is in my best interests to stay where I am and to try to establish myself in the side next season. I feel I’ve got a lot more to give the club.
It was surprising to look in here, as I often do, and see that nobody has brought up the issue of the introduction of a Conference League at Level Five of the Scottish Football Pyramid from season 2024/25. The SFA and Ian Maxwell appear to be in the forefront of this, and it is to be voted on at the SFA AGM a week today.
A controversial scheme, the proposal is to include 4 Lowland and 2 Highland League sides, along with 4 SPFL B teams, initially Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen according to reports, but the Dons have rejected inclusion.
Although the SFA appear to have been the drivers of the proposal, 3 weeks ago The Scottish Conference League Limited was registered as a private company with only two officers, Neil Doncaster and Calum Beattie of the SPFL. I’m puzzled by this.
It’s a proposal which brings little favour from lower league fans, who perhaps feel that the football authorities are trying to introduce this new tier under the radar.
paddy malarkey
30th May 2023 at 12:27
‘…Ahead of the 2012–13 season Hutton agreed to transfer to Charles Green’s new holding company,..’
++++++++
Ha ha, pm: that’s a good one!
Hutton of course (as I know you know) did not ‘transfer’ his employment contract with RFC of 1872 to SevcoScotland/TRFC/RIFC plc.
Liquidation had rendered his contract with RFC of 1872 null and void.
He therefore had NO contract to ‘transfer’.
CG [much to his rage] could NOT enforce the employment contracts of any of the employees of the liquidated RFC of 1872. The ‘walking away’ by one or two higher profile players demonstrated that fact wonderfully well!
CG did NOT buy RFC of 1872, and therefore did not acquire the legal rights to employee contracts of service [or any duty to pay RFC of 1872’s huge debts!]
No, Hutton-and every other employee of RFC of 1872 who wanted stay at Ibrox- had perforce to sign a new contract with SevcoScotland, or become unemployed.
And, of course, SevcoScotland was not a ‘holding company’ – it was football club granted by the SFA (probably illicitly under its own Articles of Association) ‘conditional membership’ of the SFA.
Only later when RIFC plc was launched (on the basis, as I believe, of a dishonest Prospectus) was there a legal separation between club and ‘holding company’.
wiki’s take on things should always and every time be taken with a very large pinch of salt and cross-checked with other sources.
I myself have found that in those very few areas of history and life generally that I know something about wiki can be a wee bit wanting and not to be taken as the last and definitive word!
At the end of the day, we have, in my opinion, two deceitful football clubs (one now dead), a deceitful Football Governance that purports to legitimise the living deceitful club in its untruthful claim to honours and titles, and a barra-load of other clubs who did not at the time and do not now protest against that deceit.
Scottish professional football?
And throw in the nonsense of a ‘conference league’ in which some teams would not be playing meaningfully in competition in the way that their opponents would be playing!
And whose places in such a league would deprive aspiring clubs of an opportunity to climb up the pyramid.
Honest to God!
Borussiabeefburg – I do find it strange that it appears to be progressing despite Aberdeen not being onboard. I do struggle with why not revert to an old-fashioned reserves league which would give more meaningful game time to fringe first team players and be a stepping stone for academy boys coming through. There’s a clearer pathway for boys in England with their U23 league (which is one of the draws for our academy players being attracted south at age 16). I’m sure there will be reasons/excuses made about cost but I think our clubs need to try harder.
There already is an SPFL reserve league, although it’s restricted to nine games per season in its current ten-team format. It was won recently by Hibs, though neither Celtic or Rangers* are in it. Does anyone know why they and others abandoned the original reserves setup? Aberdeen, Hearts, St Mirren, St Johnstone and Ross County aren’t in the current reserve league either.
https://spfl.co.uk/league/rl1/table
Highlander
3rd June 2023 at 14:32
What Wiki says –
In its first season, 2018–19, the league included 27 clubs, split into two divisions. At its end, several clubs (Aberdeen, Celtic, Hibernian, Rangers and St Johnstone) intimated that they would withdraw from the Reserve League to arrange their own programme of matches.[4][5] The 2019–20 edition was formed with 19 clubs, with the season being curtailed early due to the COVID-19 pandemic in Scotland; the winners were decided on a ‘points per game’ calculation.[6][7]
After a two-year hiatus due to the pandemic, the league will return in season 2022–23 with ten clubs participating
Its been awhile but after following some of the Rangers sites and the amassing of trophies at Celtic since 2012 I can’t sit back at the gnashing of teeth in the blue side of Glasgow. The Blue side seem to think the trophies won were due to them being relegated and starting a new journey. Since they’ve been back they’ve won a league title and a Scottish cup. Even the years they were on the journey they had the opportunity to win the league and Scottish cup and failed in those efforts. They may have been at a disadvantage in the league due to the relegation in 2012 but had opportunities in other competitions in which they failed. Grow up and stop using the crutch of not being in the Premiership when it comes to winning trophies. Also ,where is the money coming from on all these alleged Beale trips on scouting/signing missions, Brazil really. Biggest mistake a manager/coach can make is remembering the ability/talents of a young man 10 year ago.
I watched the SFA cup final on telly this evening, of course.
But post-match I listened on BBC Radio Scotland to McIntyre and English and Leeanne and Packy Bonnar and Wullie Miller.
Geez, their focus was not on the game, or the result.
McIntyre’s and the gombeen man’s and Leeanne’s focus and whole attention, it seemed to me, was on the likelihood/probability/ certainty that Ange has been approached by Spurs and has been offered the job there.
One could almost touch their intense desire that that should be true!
They were (metaphorically, I hope) pissing themselves with excitement at the possibility that Postecoglou’s reticence and use of words were an indication that he would be leaving Celtic.
Bonnar and Miller were more objective and measured in their observations.
As ever.
ps. It was no sparkling display by Celtic, but a very workmanlike and determined effort by ICT who might just have taken the game to extra time.
vernallen
3rd June 2023 at 22:54
‘…They may have been at a disadvantage in the league due to the relegation in 2012 but had opportunities’
+++++++
Aw, hey, mind your language here, vernallen!
Rangers of 1872 were NOT relegated.
They had to surrender their share in the SPL by reason of an insolvency event, and thereby ceased to be entitled to membership of the SFA, and as a result ceased to be recognised football club participating in Scottish Professional football.
SevcoScotland was a brand-new creation newly admitted into a recognised football league in 2012 and on that basis was admitted into Scottish professional football as a new football club!
Do not in your posts accidentally support an untruth, I prithee!
Beat me to it JC. @Vernallen – a universal rule, you can’t relegate a corpse of a club…
Related but separate, I was at Hampden today (£3.60 for a Diet Coke, £2.40 for a glass of water…). Also at Hampden they were listing g all previous winners of the SCup on the big screen. And early winner was a team called St Bernard’s whom I have never heard of. Anyone?
wokingcelt
4th June 2023 at 00:27
‘…early winner was a team called St Bernard’s whom I have never heard of.’
+++++++
This link to wiki has some info, wokingcelt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bernard%27s_F.C.
Oh for the good old days when the SFA had integrity enough to expel rogue clubs!!
I am still recovering from the astonishing doings in Dingwall this afternoon (I think I may previously have mentioned my very remote links to Partick Thistle via my late sister’s in-laws in Garscube Road back in the 1960s, which links compete with the equally remote ‘link’ of having briefly been a sort of colleague of Mackay’s granny!!)
So, I turned my attention this evening to trying to explore what would happen to a NOMAD who had allowed a plc to get away for a number of years with having issued an IPO prospectus which contained misleading information.
For example, and off the top of my head, what would happen to the NOMAD of a plc if that plc’s Prospectus was so written as to suggest to potential investors that it was the ‘holding company’ of a long-standing historically very successful company of which in fact and law it could not possibly be the holding company?
Heaven forfend that there could ever have been such a scenario!
But if any such scenario should ever present itself, would the mere passage of time absolve an inefficient and/or incompetent and/ or complicit-in-fraud NOMAD?
Haven’t found the answer yet.
But what I would give to have the resources to pay a London KC to explore the matter!
[Nothing against Scottish KCs of course, except that they may be too ready to speak of ‘the what-it’s-all-aboutness’ of things]!
“wokingcelt
3rd June 2023 at 12:24
Borussiabeefburg – I do find it strange that it appears to be progressing despite Aberdeen not being onboard. I do struggle with why not revert to an old-fashioned reserves league which would give more meaningful game time to fringe first team players and be a stepping stone for academy boys coming through. There’s a clearer pathway for boys in England with their U23 league (which is one of the draws for our academy players being attracted south at age 16). I’m sure there will be reasons/excuses made about cost but I think our clubs need to try harder.”
I get the feeling that few supporters have viewed the 5-page document produced by the SFA in support of the proposal, which uses as its main plank the argument that this new conference league system will lead to Scotland producing more international quality players: a frankly nonsensical suggestion.
The proposal is driven by the SFA/SPFL and, jointly, Celtic and Rangers, with Hearts tagging along presently. The future intention is to place the B sides into the SPFL system, and it could be envisioned why this is the aim. For me, clubs may wish to maintain a Scottish presence if they ever manage to leave the domestic game for a more lucrative set up in England or Europe: it appears the SPFL are taking out insurance to mitigate this possibility.
Having extra sides in SPFL, perhaps up to Championship level, would also allow the more powerful clubs to stockpile players.
Voting takes place tomorrow at the SFA AGM, around 40 votes are already stacked up as ‘No’ with no club officially supportive of the proposal, although you could assume the three clubs listed as wishing to use B sides will be in favour.
Around 55 votes defeats the proposal………………………. for the time being.
borussiabeefburg
5th June 2023 at 08:57
‘…Around 55 votes defeats the proposal………………………. for the time being@
++++++++++
I’m catching up on things a bit late tonight, and was happy to read
“The SFA has decided to abandon plans for a potential new fifth-tier Conference League that was largely rejected by clubs.”
on the DR’s online page when I tuned in to the blog a few minutes ago.
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/scottish-conference-league-plans-pulled-30160514
Like you, borussiabeefburg, I suspect that the proponents of a ‘conference league’ will not give up.
Money does talk at the end of the day, but the principle of true sporting competition with true winners/losers has to be asserted, otherwise the game’s a bogey!
These days of relatively easy european travel, perhaps minds could turn to creating a euro B team league or something of the kind that does not impact the domestic leagues of participating national Associations?
Surely to God someone in the SFA can begin to think outside the box?
Or perhaps not, given that the SFA abandoned the very concept of ‘sporting integrity’ in 2012!
My post at 5th June 2023 at 23:23 refers.
I loved this
“Scottish Football Supports Association chairperson Andy Smith reiterated his ‘bloody nose’ message earlier. Smith said: “I really hope that this daft idea based on the self-interest of just three members gets the bloody nose it deserves on Tuesday.”
Plain speaking, as against the weasel ‘corporate body’ speak of money-grubbing unprincipled *******
who lie.
I notice a house cleaning of players at Leicester and a number of them appear to be out of contract. Surely the DR will have them slated for signing at Rangers in record time. The out of contract aspect will certainly have great appeal, more so, than the reported 7 million offered for a striker. Also the stories about Tilman appear to be moving far down the “to do” list. Apologies for the relegated comment earlier this month. It must have stuck in my head as being true as its so often stated/repeated in the scottish media and Ranger fan sites.
Statement from The Jags Foundation.
https://thejagsfoundation.co.uk/reaction-to-ptfc-statement-regarding-financial-situation/
Sounds like without the money from the SC tie at Ibrox then wages would have been unpaid in February.
A see whit ye mean A11.
If it wisnae fur the mighty, and ever so altruistic, TRFC (having learned from the financial malpractice and subsequent liquidation of their predecessor?) the gemme wid be deid in Scotland.
The brazen and hypocritical WATP mentality in general, and the arrogant superiority that emanates from it, ferr gies me a laff at times!
bect67
7th June 2023 at 20:13
‘…The brazen and hypocritical WATP mentality in general..’
++++++++
If, God forbid, the Thistle go into Administration there is the possibility that any halfway competent Court-appointed ‘Administrators’ will find a buyer to rescue them by paying their debts and funding their continuation.
Something that did NOT happen in the case of the Administration of RFC of 1872!
That club’s debts were not paid, and the club died the death of Liquidation.
The SFA withdrew that football club’s membership because it had ceased to belong to a recognised football league having had to surrender its share in the then SPL in 2012.
Everybody knows those to be the facts.
And there is something really rotten at the heart of Scottish Football that allows the monstrous propagation of the lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
If a John SevcoClark(e) Ltd were to buy from the Administrators of a Partick Thistle-in- Administration some ( and only some, because it could not buy some important assets) of the assets of that club from an incompetent pair of Administrators who failed to bring it out of Administration, and then sought entry into a ‘recognised football league’ and admission to membership of the SFA, would they be allowed to market themselves as Partick Thistle of 18-oatcake and claim the honours of that club?
No effin way!
The rot is there-at the very heart of Scottish Football !
The liars and defenders of the liars and betrayers of their office as a ‘governance body’ know fine and well that they are liars.
And not to be too melodramatic, they know that their graves may be- metaphorically at least-spat upon by many, many people because of their craven dereliction of duty.
[ Ps Is yer West Ham man now favourite for the Celtic job?]
JC
[ Ps Is yer West Ham man now favourite for the Celtic job?]
My ‘tuppence worth’ right now is that Celtic will wait till after the CL Final and then make a move for Enzo Maresca.
Could be (and not for the first time!) wrong, but there ye go – ‘head above the parapet’ so to speak!
bect67
9th June 2023 at 10:57
‘…My ‘tuppence worth’ right now is that Celtic will wait till after the CL Final and then make a move for Enzo Maresca.’
+++++++
bect67, I’m in no way knowledgeable enough to make my own serious suggestion as to who may be in contention as a replacement for Postecoglou.
But I would hope that the Celtic board including Dermot Desmond already know who they want that they might be able and willing to afford and will not bugger about for weeks and weeks!
My own personal view is that re-hiring a former ‘deserter’ would not be appropriate.
Postecoglou is of course not a deserter [honour and praise and thanks to him]
But Rodgers opted to go for what seemed to him best for him. Fair do’s.
But he has to live with that and accept the consequences: personally, I’d kick his fundament if he even applied for the job!
But what do I know?
Answer: not a hellish lot!
So …Barry Ferguson is exhorting Rangers* to “get on with the job of restoring the natural order”
Whit happened tae yir ‘fact checking’ Barry?
We’re talkin’ here about:-
a) An outfit (TRFC) that is 11 years old – with two major Scottish football trophies and , more importantly …
b) The above clubs predecessor, which is (how you say it Leigh?) ……….’deid’!
Ergo – no natural order applies!
I’ve just listened to a piece of news as broadcast by BBC RadioScotland.
I hope Police Scotland and/or the COPFS are not going to land us with another lot of compensation payments for wrongful arrest!
John Clark 30/05 23.03
Just seen this post John.
A question. I’m actually not sure here but if there was no transfer under TUPE, why did four players engage Bridge Litigation to object to their TUPE transfer.Surely if there was none,then there would have been no need to do so.
A11
Nor really sure what you’re after here, but you might get some clarity from:_
‘Random Thoughts on Scots Law’ (Paul Mc Conville)
‘Rangers, Sevco and the law, June 2012 Threatened Court Actions – Sevco v the Players’
Plenty of comments therein too.
Albertz11
12th June 2023 at 12:46
‘…Surely if there was none, then there would have been no need to do so.’
++++++++
Albertz11, this link
https://www.acas.org.uk/employee-rights-during-a-tupe-transfer/tupe-transfers-if-your-employer-is-insolvent
may help you.
I’ve lifted this from it to show the difference between businesses merely changing ownership and businesses going defunct.
“When the organisation is closed down – ‘terminal insolvency’
———
You will not transfer to a new employer if your current employer:
-goes into ‘liquidation’ and closes down the organisation
-becomes bankrupt
Instead, you should be made redundant. ”
It is a fact that the entity that held the share in the then SFL in 2012 was Rangers Football Club plc. It was that entity that went into liquidation the Administrators not having been successful in obtaining an outright buyer or a CVA.
The basic point is that SevcoScotland did NOT become the new owners of Rangers Football Club plc. That entity and its ownership of contracts with its employees did not ‘transfer’ and could not have legally transferred to SevcoScotland: the contracts were nullified (remember CG’s fury at that?)
Each and every employee was free to walk away (unemployed!) or sign a new contract of employment with Sevcoscotland.
For the majority, of course, there would have been no real choice-sign up with CG or be unemployed!
But one or two of the high-profile players exercised their rights and chose to walk away.
[Far be it from me to suggest that the 4 players you mention may have been ill-advised if the advice given to them was that they HAD to sign up with CG’s Sevco!
If you could provide reference details of the court action so that we could look up the judgment that would maybe give us information about their understanding of what their legal position was, if the ‘judgment’ can be found on BAILLII?]
As Albertz11 is our go to guy on all things Ibrox I wonder if there is any comment on this piece posted on Ibrox news. Apparently the Easedales (remember them) have had their shares and entitlements in Rangers returned to them. I can only assume these were the said shares suspended from voting rights etc by Dave King whom it now seems wants to partner up ! This must be a wind up surely.
https://www.ibroxnews.com/2023/06/13/dave-king-in-talks-with-uk-billionaires-as-rangers-takeover-now-on-the-cards-after-court-ruling/
gunnerb
13th June 2023 at 19:30
‘…I can only assume these were the said shares suspended from voting rights .’
+++++
As far as I can see, gunnerb, there has been no published ‘opinion’ of the Court of Session on the matter of RIFC plc’s request that the names of the shareholders who are hidden behind a nominee should be declared.
Perhaps I’ve missed something?
But any press piece that talks about millionaire and billionaire interest in RIFC plc has to be viewed with deepest suspicion as to its truthfulness.
We remember yon eejit (in the DR, was it?) who spouted absolute sh.te about the MBMB.
Who knows, but is ‘Doug Ward’ really that same eejit, whose ‘journalism’ does not come with a guarantee of fidelity to Truth.
Honest to God!
There was no billionaire or even measly millionaire to come to save RFC of 1872 from the death of Liquidation.
Neither King nor any other big shareholder was prepared to put their money where their miserable mouths were, pay the debts and buy outright their ‘beloved’ football club out of Administration.
No, no.
On-the-make chancers all, in my opinion. Who were outsmarted by CG!
And further reference to billionaires coming to buy TRFC?
Shi.e!
Am I reading this development right
The man who blocked voting rights
of these shareholders (who had to go to court to overturn the block )now wants to team up with them to take over sevco 2012 .
Well, a pretty crap game to watch, eh? But an incredibly good result through sheer hard-working non-stop effort, with two very well-worked goals in quick succession. Well done to Steve Clarke and the team.
And whit’s -his-name Haaland could score only with a penalty and did not get too much in the way of freedom – and was not particularly well-served by his team-mates.