With the introduction of VAR to Scottish football our football media, exposure to the on line, audio and print world has been akin to living in Plato’s Cave where debate/discussion concentrates on the shadows reflected on the wall by the light of a fire: (PLATO ON: The Allegory of the Cave – YouTube )
The shadows take the following shapes.</p?
- Was it handball?
- What is handball?
- Was it a penalty?
- Was it offside?
- What are offside rules anyway?
- Do referees know them?
- Do they apply them with any degree of consistency?
All are of interest as they are scrutinised, dissected and disputed, but they all ignoring the biggest shadow of the biggest animal in the cave:- that of the elephant called ” trust”.
In the context of Scottish football, ever since the game became professional, referees in Scotland have never been trusted because of the demographic peculiarities of Scotland, a peculiarity created as a by-product of historical events in Scotland and its near neighbours Ireland and England.
With such a diverse populace tribal distrust of the other is a fertile breeding ground to grow and take life, like unattended weeds choke a garden.
In the Plato’s Cave allegory the commentator suggests the way out of the cave is by philosophical education and if you watch the video, one description of his guidance on such education is “dialogue.”
So what is dialogue?
“ Dialogue is a conversation on a common subject between two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose of which is for each participant to learn from the other so that s/he can change and grow. This very definition of dialogue embodies the first commandment of dialogue.
If we approach another party to either defeat them or to learn about them so as to deal more effectively with her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we face each other at all in confrontation–sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we are convinced that we alone have the absolute truth, we are indulging in debate and not dialogue.
But dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each party must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at any point we might find the other party’s position so persuasive that, if we would act with integrity, we would have to change, and change can be disturbing.
The parties must be prepared to come to the dialogue as persons ready to put aside their own needs and wants, at least for a time. They must be ready to listen, without judgement, to the thoughts and feelings as expressed by the other person in the exchange. The parties must be prepared to accept that reaching agreement may not be achieved, although that might occur, but dialogue will lead to both parties, through a better understanding of the others’ needs and wants, to being able to live amicably with their differences.”
How, then, can Scottish football supporters as key stakeholders in the game via their own club supporter organisations and the likes of The Scottish Football Supporters Association (SFSA)? How can the clubs themselves effectively engage in a meaningful dialogue?
There are 10 “Commandments in the Original Dialogue Decalogue by Leonard Swidler that can be read at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iGs5NDx08g1O5A1PdUjBCfTN6foSHmk0hifUwO3-Djc/edit
but the following two are particularly apt in terms of acknowledging the presence of the particular elephant in our own Scottish football cave in order to drag it out and into the light?
SEVENTH COMMANDMENT: Dialogue can take place only between equals. Both must come to learn from each other. Therefore, if, for example, one party views the other as inferior, or if one party views the other as superior, there will be no dialogue. If authentic relationship dialogue is to occur between the parties, then both must come mainly to learn from each other; only then will it be “equal with equal,”. This rule also indicates that there can be no such thing as a one-way dialogue.
EIGHTH COMMANDMENT: Dialogue can take place only on the basis of mutual trust, which must be built. A dialogue among persons can be built only on personal trust. Hence it is wise not to tackle the most difficult problems in the beginning, but rather to approach first those issues most likely to provide some common ground, thereby establishing the basis of trust. Then, gradually, as this personal trust deepens and expands, the more thorny matters can be undertaken. Thus, as in learning we move from the known to the unknown. So in dialogue we proceed from commonly held matters, which, given our mutual ignorance resulting from possibly years of misunderstanding and possibly hostility in the relationship, may take us quite some time to discover fully–to discuss matters of disagreement.
Philosophy/dialogue is all very well but what can it do to bring about the required level of trust?
The advice above is via small steps and one small step but with huge benefits would be the introduction of transparency to the VAR process. This could be done in the reasonable short term by making conversation between referees and VAR assistant audible to all.
It is a technical approach but with behaviour changing consequences because observed behaviour changes that of those being observed. It need not be live during a game but at very least released within half an hour of a match ending. It brings in transparency which is the forerunner to accountability and would be a game changer.
Longer term strategy for culture change to improve professionalism of referees, which the proposal by Sentinel Celts Calling Out Scottish Referees – SENTINELCELTS sets out should be part of a longer terms strategy for changing the culture of the referee service with the ultimate aim of making refereeing a very rewarding professional career and be fertile territory for dialogue between all stakeholders, not least referees themselves.
John Clark
I used to contribute to the blog for a while .
Have not posted for a long time due to log in problem .
May I just say .
sir I salute your indefatigability regarding the death of rangers 1872
Sevco 2012 entered the Scottish football set up as a newly formed club and I totally agree with your view regarding the cowards that facilitate and push the BIG LIE
fan of football
18th June 2023 at 17:34
‘…Sevco 2012 entered the Scottish football set up as a newly formed club and I totally agree with your view regarding the cowards that facilitate and push the BIG LIE’
++++++++++
fan of football, thank you.
Glad your signing-in probs were resolved.
But really, there’s nothing terribly fatiguing about asserting and re-asserting a simple matter of fact!
It is those who tell porkies who get fatigued, having always to mind what they say in case they contradict themselves and change their story!
I state the simple truth.
And that truth is that the Prospectus for the launch of RIFC plc clearly misled potential investors in that it strongly suggested that RIFC plc would be the holding company of ‘the most successful football club blah blah blah’
In truth the RIFC plc board does not dare to put on its ‘investors information’ page on the ‘Rangers FC website’ that it is anything other than the holding company of TRFC, which became a football club only in 2012!
No. They have to tell the truth (in very smallest print!) that they are the holding company of TRFC!
And how and why the FCA ever allowed that Prospectus needs, I think, to be investigated.
(why am I reminded suddenly of the thankfully now defunct BBC Trust with its leaning on BBC Scotland to propagate the untruth that it was the ‘company’ that went into liquidation while the club survived?)
Recent events in the sphere of politics have shown that there are bad bast.rts in high office.
Sadly, it appears that there are similar in Scottish Football ‘governance’ and the BBC.
It does not fatigue me in any way to say so…… and to keep saying so!
And the enjoyable thing for me is that they KNOW how dirty and despicable they are.
I could look every one of them in the eye and KNOW that they know that they are propagating an untruth.
John Clark
Again you are spot on regards dirty politics.
I listened to a podcast with paul Murray speaking of his time at rangers 1972 .
In it he stated he and dave king were approached by someone high up at HMRC and given information to act on regards Craig white and the ticketus deal .
I think he intimated that HMRC knew something was going on and they did not want to get the blame of it .
Now I took that to mean HMRC knew the club would not emerge from admin and they were worried they would be blamed for its eventual demise .
Makes you wonder what else was being said in the shadows
fan of football
19th June 2023 at 21:07
‘…Makes you wonder what else was being said in the shadows.’
++++++++
I can’t speak for anyone else, of course, but I remember four things in particular:
the first is the lugubriously facile and superficial decision of 2 of the 3 members of the First Tier tax tribunal that ruled in favour of RFC of 1872 in a reasoning that the third member, the superb Dr Heidi Poon, totally demolished in her deeply reasoned disagreement but was overruled;
the second is the singularly poor performance of HMRC’s Counsel in Edinburgh at the appeal hearing before the Upper Tier Tax tribunal.
the third is the crawlingly fawning statement made by (I assume, the Scottish end of HMRC) to the effect that RFC of 1872 lives on [ I’ll need to dig out my reference source]
the fourth is the difference that Counsel for HMRC made at the appeal hearing before the Court of Session which opened the door to the UK Supreme Court hearing which ended in victory for HMRC (in the decision read by our own Lord Hodge, whom I had had the pleasure of seeing in action in relation to the Administration and Liquidation matter)
There is no doubt in my mind that there were pernicious wheels within wheels that caused the INITIALLY truthful reporting by the print media [ remember James T?] and BBC Scotland [ remember the BBC Trust telling Pacific Quay to lie?] to be converted to propagating the vile and absurd lie that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
Quite separately, I was mildly amused to learn today ( by accident, while looking for something else) that the Finance Company which TRFC were in connection with at one time has itself gone into creditors voluntary liquidation.
Zebra Finance ltd lost its Financial Conduct Authority authorisation as from 18 April 2023.
Who said ‘birds’? who said ‘feathers’? And what have sheep got to do with old saws?
So true that the whole episode regarding the death of the old club
Has thrown up all sorts of strange goings on .
The Paul Murray interview on the Craig Houston podcast being just one of many .
I must say the whole interview looked contrived to me and Murray was specific with many dates when asked , what seemed like (pre determined ) questions, so much so he was even recalling what day of the week it was .
How many peepil would remember ,to the day of the week a phone call or meeting they had 11 years ago
A very good and well-deserved victory tonight.
A bit of pettiness from the Georgians who were comprehensively beaten football-wise not weather-wise.
The pettiness was possibly redeemed by the most wildly off-target penalty kick that I can remember!
Que sera sera whatever will be will be we’re going to Germany.
Very gratifying.
fan of football
20th June 2023 at 18:32
‘…The Paul Murray interview on the Craig Houston podcast.’
++++++
Dear God!
What is one to make of all the chancers who hoped to make money out of ‘Rangers’ without putting a penny in to trying to save it from Liquidation!
That’s the question I ask.
Those most responsible for killing RFC of 1872 walked away financially unaffected.
And the disappointed jackals who wanted a piece of a phony simulacrum of a dead football club created by smarter chancers than they were, were left in the cold.
Not one word of any director, previous director or would-be director of the RFC of 1872 is, in my opinion, to be taken as being truthful.
I am reading “Rebuilding Scottish Football: a fan led review of the game in Scotland’ which was released to Press and public today at a meeting held in the Scottish Parliament building.
https://scottishfsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/sfa-fan-led-review-2023-06-WEB.pdf
I have believed for some considerable time that Scottish Football ‘governance’ has often shown itself to be inept, incompetent, venal, selective, possibly actually complicit in significant cover-up of deceit and somewhat short of forward-looking acceptance of societal changes.
But I was staggered to read on page 13, this sentence:
“..It is interesting to note that only one country failed to support the ban [ed: on ‘ football] being removed – Scotland.”
Astonishing!
The SFA may since then and with gritted teeth have accepted the reality of women’s football. I give them credit for that.
But in respect of the other failings I mention, the SFA is -in my opinion- still guilty of them all.
Let’s hope that this ‘Review’ paper will encourage us all to insist on the creation by our Scottish Parliament of a statutory Regulator with enough (but no more than enough) powers to ensure the financial integrity and probity of the football governance body itself in its duty to ensure the probity and integrity of the football clubs in the various League set-ups.
I carry on with my reading.
Something else to argue about
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/celtic-park-ranked-best-stadium-30302939
BBC Scotland has asked Celtic for comment on the decision to deny the BBC access to the media conference and is awaiting a response.
…………………………………………………………………..
Anyone know the background story here?
Do any of the CFC bhoys know why the BBC(and others) were excluded from the Brendan presser today ? Fan media only ?
Albertz, maybe they didn’t pay the £25,000….! Oh wait, that was your lot, wasn’t it? Haha.
It’s been a while since I’ve posted on SFM.
Resolution 12 from 2013 finally closed at Christmas 2022 when the legal fees of £11.2k incurred in pursuit of Res12 were donated to the Celtic Foundation Christmas Appeal with shareholders agreement, after Celtic CEO Michael Nicholson offered reimbursement.
There was a fair degree of comment at the time some of it very misinformed so it was only right that the closure of Res12 should be added to the Res12 Archive that SFM posters played a significant part in constructing.
Part 6 has been added and can be read at
https://res12.uk/part-6-closure-of-resolution-12-to-celtic-agms-2013-to-2022/
for those who both helped and hindered Res12 over the years.
Albertz11
23rd June 2023 at 18:12
re ‘..the decision to deny the BBC access ‘…’…Anyone know the background story here?’
+++++
I myself do not know.
But I find myself wondering what crime must have been committed by a BBC reporter that could possibly be worse than the ‘crime’ committed by BBC Scotland in accepting and propagating the lie that TRFC is Rangers of 1872!
A ‘crime’ that the Celtic board seem not to have felt, or to feel, the need to have exposed by insisting on an SFA inquiry into the Res 12 matter.
Banning the BBC at a Press conference should have been the norm for Celtic when the BBC began to act as propagandist-in-chief for the biggest sporting untruth in Scottish Football.
Honest to God!
pm & jc.
Apparently down to this article by Tom English.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65905895.
PLZ Sport (Peter Martin) also denied access.
Auldheid
23rd June 2023 at 22:58
‘…It’s been a while since I’ve posted on SFM’
+++++++
Auldheid, I had not seen your post before I posted at 23.44.
I was not a member of the Res 12 group but supported their initiative and their dogged persistence.
It was very disappointing that the Celtic Board in a display of unprincipled corporate self-protection dug in their feet of clay and refused to exercise their power to insist that objective truth should be established by an independent Inquiry when on the face of things there was evidence enough that there were serious questions to be asked.
There will forever be a cloud hanging over the whole mucky episode of SDM’s tax-cheating and how that was not spotted by anyone in Scottish football who was in a position to read the ‘players’ wages bills’ over the decade in question and wonder how the hell such good players were signing for such comparatively low wages!
But well done the Res12 guys.
And doubly well done in not accepting personal re-imbursement of legal costs.
https://thecelticblog.com/2023/06/articles-and-features/celtics-locking-out-the-bbc-was-a-warning-shot-and-one-that-was-overdue/
Might be of help
My, how the times have changed! It’s not that long since Celtic fans were raging at the audacity of Rangers* for trying to control the media narrative about the club, including the barring of the BBC and individual journalists from entering Ibrox and participating in press conferences.
How many comments were made on sites like SFM slamming Rangers* for closing down valid criticism by only allowing officially approved propaganda levels of favourable and positive reporting?
Yet, now that Celtic are doing the self-same thing, it’s apparently totally understandable and long overdue. What hypocrisy!
Let’s be honest, until little over a fortnight ago, Brendan Rodgers was a traitor who was public enema (sp) number one to the vast majority of the Celtic faithful, until the board at Celtic Park failed miserably to read the room and re-appointed him.
To ban Peter Martin (a Celtic supporter no less) for reporting factually accurate criticism of Celtic and Rodgers demonstrates Ibrox levels of paranoia and over-reaction.
Unlike James Forrest in his blog, I fail to see any contradiction in reporting that Celtic will win many trophies under Rodgers second time around, while simultaneously pointing out his faults and flaws. Isn’t the point of journalism to present the whole picture, warts and all, not just accentuate the positives?
To be honest, I’ve still got no idea what gripe Celtic have with the BBC, but if it’s genuinely about Ibrox-facing pundits outnumbering the likes of the blundering and painfully inept Packie Bonner, then I’m totally fine with that, especially if redressing the balance might involve employing pundits with the underwhelming quality of Andy Walker or the insufferable Charlie Nicholas.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there was an imbalance in BBC Scotland’s punditry/commentary demographic, but then I have no inkling, or indeed interest, in knowing which schools were attended by Liam McLeod, Al Lamont, Paul Mitchell, Jonathan Sutherland, Michael Stewart, Jane Lewis, Amy Canavan, Amy Irons, Leanne Crichton, James McFadden, Rob Maclean, John Barnes or Chris Iwelumo, amongst many others.
Who wants a Jim Traynor style of PR spin at Celtic Park, where negativity and warranted criticism are outlawed and only Pravda-esque disinformation is released? It looks like you could well be heading that way.
To be clear, I am well aware of the many failings of the supposedly impartial, publicly funded BBC. Those who’ve read my previous posts will be equally aware that I have consistently been highly critical of both iterations of Rangers.
Always interesting to receive commentary from a body with no dog in the fight.An echo chamber of fan media is not the answer and responsible constructive criticism is always to be welcomed, as it is here.There is a little of straw and camel back that has to be taken into consideration and whilst agreeing that this could be a slippery slope I think that it is more a finger wagging shot and bow exercise. Celtic have never sought to directly profit from media press conference or coverage as per charges levied by others and I hope this continues.
nawlite 23/06 22.36
I’m not sure if you’re aware that it no longer applies.
Since this season, I understand. Does removing the fee mean it was okay to implement it in the first place, Albertz?
gunnerb
25th June 2023 at 16:38
‘… responsible constructive criticism is always to be welcomed,..’
++++++++
It might not, of course, gunnerb, be welcomed by whomever [ Eric Morecambe, anybody?] is being criticised!
But you are right, certainly, when one is speaking of opinions, aesthetics, tastes, personal likes/dislikes, and all the stuff for which the BBC in particular provides a national forum.
Propagation of untruth on the other hand, is not at all to be welcomed.
Celtic plc were very happy to ignore the propagation by the BBC of the untruth that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
Why, I ask, should they bother banning the BBC from a Press conference for fear of ‘opinions’, when they had and have real cause for banning it because it lied and lies on a question of fact!
Why social media should not be used by pundits to spout pish when they know it will get picked up by listeners and then find itself been discussed as a topic to fleece gullible listeners and buyers of MSM sports newscoverage. Rodgers will be livid, seems to me someone has been shafted and is taking it out on social media.
Tom English always a fraud and resenttful ass wipe.
https://twitter.com/Zeshankenzo/status/1672526644790149120
Albertz11
24th June 2023 at 15:35
‘…apparently down to this article by Tom English…’
+++++++++
Thanks for that, Albertz11.
I hadn’t thought of looking at the BBC website, which (as I think will not be news to anyone) I do not trust in the matter of Scottish Football reporting in so far as they strain at a gnat while swallowing a camel.
Truth is indivisible.
Andrew Smith in today’s ‘The Scotsman’ reports on the observations of Charlie Marshall, CEO of the European Clubs Association, as he (Marshall) waxes eloquent on Lawwell’s major part in seeing the notion of a European Super League being booted far into touch and in having the ECA’s articles changed so that a 75% of the ‘ordinary members’ (‘associate members’ have no vote in ECA General
meetings) would have to vote for any change in the competitions.
I just wish Lawwell had used his power and influence as effectively in dealing with the bloody shambles the lying SFA made of itself in reneging on its governance duties by fostering and perpetuating the nonsense that TRFC is RFC of 1872.
bigboab1916
26th June 2023 at 10:38
‘…Tom English always a fraud and resenttful ass wipe.’
++++++++
Well, he’s essentially a ‘rugby’ man., not a GAA man! An Anglicised deferential Irishman, it seems to me, who knows how best to butter his bread. There have been many such.
But that’s just my opinion.
A little off topic but I’ve been thinking about a number of songs Sevco/Rangers could use this year in place of Simply the Best, and, they relate to the numerous signings at Ibrox. First choice, “I’ve been everywhere”, by a number of C&W artists, an oldie from Rickie Nelson, “Travelling Man”, and finally from Frank Sinatra, “Strangers in the Night”.
Vernallen
Simply the best is so 90s as far as ragers are concerned .
30 years and 1 club later I think it will quietly be dropped
Now that the SFA have given the go ahead for a court case .
I wonder where scottish football will be at the end of this new saga
TRFC will effectively be taking all the other clubs in the SPFL to court if they continue their action. This is really a testosterone filled rammy that might have been settled privately an age ago. Now that Douglas Park has stepped down from the board I wonder how far the new chairman and MD will want to pursue or will they view this as an unnecessary distraction added to other more damaging litigation.Boys and toys.
gunnerb
28th June 2023 at 19:26
“…However, if the league body does address the situation to Rangers’ satisfaction quickly then the legal process will be abandoned.’
+++++++++
I’m a bit ahent the news and have just read the posts relating to the SFA granting permission to TRFC to take the SPFL to Court, and the online news reports.
Now might be a good time for the governance bodies of Scottish Football:
to begin to ask pointed questions of the FCA about RIFC plc’s claim in their launching Prospectus to be the holding company of a liquidated football club!
and to withdraw their support for the absurd notion that a football club newly admitted by them themselves to Scottish Football in 2012 can possibly be the RFC of 1872!
RFC of 1872 under SDM played them for mugs for a decade in the matter of EBTs.
CG/SevcoScotland played them for mugs in 2012 and RIFC plc/TRFC since then.
Between the two of them they damaged the integrity of the sport of football and in my mind destroyed any credence in the integrity of its governance.
No question!
fan of football
28th June 2023 at 17:42
‘Now that the SFA …I wonder where scottish football will be at the end of this new saga.’
+++++++++++
None of the directors of Thames Water is likely to face charges of a criminal nature. But it is obvious that the Board were desperately useless, incompetent and possibly reckless, in their governance of the company.
The SFA?
In the matter of the death of RFC of 1872?
Charges of uselessness and incompetence might conceivably be overlaid by other more serious charges, in my opinion.
As an organisation the SFA seems to be inviolable, a law unto itself and absolutely free to refuse to have the probity and honesty of its actions investigated independently.
In spite of being in receipt of public money!
Not at all an acceptable situation.
For me masel personally witnessing legal fights between a lying club and the Scottish Football governance bodies which support the lie of that club is like witnessing a sack full of rats being thrown into the Clyde.
May they tear themselves to pieces as they drown!
John Clark
Part of the decline in Scottish football must surely be laid at the door of the SFA and the way they are run as an organisation.
There seemed to be no discernable forward planning regards the safe guarding of clubs in general and they seem to have been surprised at the very real threat of the death of ragers 1872 .
I find it puzzling that there was not some kind of domestic FFP brought in post 2012 ,although if there was sevco 2012 would have surely have found the mythical journey all the more arduous, but can that really be the soul reason behind the failing to act to safeguard all clubs.
Are we not witnessing sevco 2012 also gambling with the solvency of the new club season by season .
What lies are the SFA expecting us
To swallow if sevco fall into insolvency.
You are right to keep reminding peepil of the truth regards the death of ragers 1872 .
As IMO we have yet to see the full consequences of the damage done to our game from the BIG LIE
Alan Pattullo, writing in today’s print edition of ‘The Scotsman’, has a piece about something that I have never heard of: ‘The International Football History Conference.’
Apparently, this year’s Conference begins today at Hampden Park, with delegates being welcomed by the SFA’s CEO, Ian Maxwell.
I wonder if anyone will present a paper on the ‘history’ of the causes of the Liquidation of RFC of 1872 and the peculiar way in which the SFA allowed and continues to allow a new club to claim falsely the sporting honours, titles and history of a club which ceased, under the SFA’s own rules, to be a football club entitled to membership of the SFA in 2012?
No, I somehow think Maxwell and co would not allow such a paper to be presented by an honest historian.
I think we’ll have to wait for at least a generation before a paper entitled, say, ‘The integrity of the governance of Football with particular reference to the functioning of the SFA between 2009-2013 and the Liquidation of Glasgow Rangers of 1872’ will ever be read!
Highlander
25th June 2023 at 15:20
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have zero knowledge of why the BBC were excluded from a Celtic media conference, however in my opinion it will go further than one Tom English article. Personally I feel the article in question may well have been the straw that broke the camel’s back.
It’s all about opinions of course. I don’t want to see Celtic going down the route of banning journalists who may be critical of the club, but neither do I want to see the club, amidst a period of huge on and off park success, being unfairly targeted. The BBC in particular really need to make an effort to be more impartial in their reporting of Celtic…in my opinion of course.
I can’t take the ‘brouhaha’ about the BBC being excluded from a Celtic Press Conference this week all that seriously, so I dug out this old article (slightly off topic I agree, but I was looking for something lighthearted). So …a blast from the past if you’ll indulge me dear reader(s):-
Keevins is shown red card by Celtic
(6th May 2000 HERALD AND TIMES ARCHIVE)
‘CELTIC’S relationship with the media took a nosedive yesterday when broadcaster and journalist Hugh Keevins was asked to leave the Supporters Social Club in Glasgow about half-a-mile from Parkhead, and, thus, was prevented from taking part in the pre-match press conference arranged there by director of football Kenny Dalglish’.
(Fuller articles are available on the Herald’s subscription service , the Sun and the Free Library (the best account for me)).
I found the ‘incident’ hilarious back then – and still do now – and wonder if, and how, any posters remember it.
Thinks – should I be taking this latest (anti-Celtic?) SMSM ‘kerfuffle’ more sombrely?
Nah – it’s jist the meedja efter a’!!!!
bect67
30th June 2023 at 21:10
‘…a blast from the past if you’ll indulge me dear reader(s):-
‘ ‘ Keevins is shown red card by Celtic
(6th May 2000 HERALD AND TIMES ARCHIVE)’
+++++++++++
A blast from the past indeed, bect67, that made me smile in recollection of the mind-numbing witterings of Keevins!
I’m with you in thinking that any organisation that bans a member of the Press for printing no matter how biased and ill-motivated or spiteful ‘reports’ is playing into the hands of its ‘enemies.’
Any organisation is of course perfectly justified in challenging factually untruthful reports and banning the authors of such untruthful reports,
(I’ve no idea whether Keevins was guilty of untrue reporting or just of bias or whatever)
Having said that,mind you, an organisation that has actually accepted and lives with the Biggest Lie in Scottish Football has some temerity in banning any mere individual reporter!
I note this from ‘Andy’s Sting in the tail’ in today’s email from the SFSA:
“Over a few meetings, Craig [ i.e Craig Brown] and I discussed two things that Scottish football needs in particular.
The first was a concerted regeneration of schools football for a broad range of benefits to our nation as well as the game.”
That is something to be devoutly wished for.
I confess that while I know that there is still a Scottish Schools Football Association I know very little about it. Does every school, primary or secondary (using old money language!) have a football team playing in some kind of league structure? With teaching staff involved as unpaid volunteers?
This afternoon on Radio Scotland they replayed a previous programme where Craig Brown was interviewed by Chick Young about his time managing Scotland. I had never heard it before but all I can say is Mr Brown did not miss the media and hit the wall. He pointed out the number of lies they told about his personal life, and was very critical of how they go about their business. It was evident that Chick Young was squirming.
The Scottish Media really is a bit of a cesspit. In my opinion.
upthehoops
1st July 2023 at 21:31I
‘… all I can say is Mr Brown did not miss the media and hit the wall. He pointed out the number of lies they told about his personal life..’
++++++++
Yes, uph, I was struck by that as well.
But he got a fairly easy ride from the media throughout his tenure of the post as manager of the national team win lose or draw.
Fair do’s, though. He did well enough, and I think I would have quite liked him and enjoyed a pint in his company.
May he rest in peace.
Liam Bryce in ‘The Herald online’ reports:
“Yang Hyun-Jun offers to pay own transfer fee in extraordinary bid to join Celtic
The 21-year-old attacker is desperate to make a move to Parkhead this summer…”
Extraordinary thing even to think of!
The Rangers football fans were quite concerned about the number of injuries incurred last year and this was with a team that had players playing a number of games. What is the outlook for the incoming players who haven’t seen much action in the past year or so. Will the strain of playing twice a week ( for a little while) take a toll and the fans again moaning about the number of injuries. It is difficult to comeback from limited activity and fall into a strenuous schedule. Oh, isn’t it interesting how the SG Manager’s Express has kind of derailed. Rangers, lower level EPL club for experience, Liverpool for further experience, then England. Saudi Arabia is certainly an interesting derailment.
vernallen
3rd July 2023 at 19:37
‘… Saudi Arabia is certainly an interesting derailment.’
++++++++
‘ What was it that attracted you to the fabulously rich world of Saudi football, Stevie?’
Echoes of a brilliant comedienne’s sketch!
So is the Saudi pro league a threat to the norms and historic culture of the European leagues? Personally I don’t think so. For a long time now I and I suspect many other fans have, apart maybe from the final,become disinterested in the Champions league unless Celtic are playing. I imagine that is true for many other club supports across Europe. The Saudi pro league will have to sell itself via sky sports TV or some other such channel and although less likely to rely on such funding sources I don’t believe it will have as much impact as the domestic league coverage does around Europe. It might sell well to Asian markets or further afield to less traditional footballing nations but strikes me as a bit of Harlem globe trottery. UEFA are not so foolish as to allow teams from these leagues to compete in their competitions thereby promoting and lending a legitimacy that could eventually threaten the accepted norms. FIFA will no doubt welcome them with loving arms as they try to promote their own new version of the curio world club champions trophy to rival the money spinning Champions league There is obviously enough money to keep the Saudi league alive and it won’t fail for want but I am not convinced European fans will flock to the new order. Football fans tend to be a little conservative with the sport ,witness the furious reaction to the money grabbing attempt of Juventus ,Real Madrid etc in trying to create their own super league franchises.It is nice however to see a little discomfiture in the ranks of the EPL. Celtic will not be shopping in the same markets currently as the Saudi league who I imagine will also like to develop their own players if a long term strategy is in place. Should the Saudi league start to hoover up the best young talent before even the likes of Celtic can sign them like Holm and Yang Hyun-Jun or even Matt O’Riley then it will increase the importance of the youth academy. To sum up. Celtic have less to fear than the EPL or La Liga and the emotion of support for your own club is something that ensures its survival and growth. The Saudi league is a distraction that will eventually settle down to the occasional massive transfer headline. Football will remain strong in traditional markets because of the passing of the supporter baton through generations.
gunnerb
7th July 2023 at 21:25
‘…The Saudi league is a distraction that will eventually settle down to the occasional massive transfer headline. Football will remain strong in traditional markets because of the passing of the supporter baton through generations.’
+++++++++
I have begun listening to a BBC Radio 4 podcast about China’s attempts to use its table-tennis expertise to try to win friends in the world of diplomacy using its undoubted skill in that sport in the years after Mao’s ‘cultural revolution’.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001np4b
The Saudis may be trying to assert themselves by trying to get into what matters to the masses in Europe.
Me masel personally, my view is coloured by my experience at Tynecastle in 1989 when, as it appeared to me, men well over the age of 16 narrowly beat our under 16s!
( I remember having to lift my wee boy up onto the roof of a turnstile because of the crush, such was the attendance at that game)
One less court case .
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-transfer-news/rangers-thrash-out-sydney-super-30438350
paddy malarkey
11th July 2023 at 12:28
‘…One less court case ‘
+++++++++
What a pity!
I expect, though, that TEG will recoup what they lost (plus interest!) from TRFC’s pull-out of the Sydney tournament, from any share TRFC will have in the first TEG tournament they take part in.
The attempt by TRFC to turn a humiliating piece of crass mismanagement into some kind of victory is just ridiculous.
They made a farce of themselves internationally, and TEG will make damned sure that any contract they sign with TRFC will screw them into the ground if they default.
gunnerb
7th July 2023 at 21:25
……………….
“Harlem Globetrottery”, good analogy, or something resembling what is happening in the US.
UEFA would welcome North Korea into Europe if the price was right.
paddy malarkey @ 12.28
My reaction to this groundbreaking ,and positive, news for Scottish Football’s greatest institution…
Spin! Spin! Spin!
“The promoters were said to be seeking £1.6million in damages. But now, according to the Daily Record, that legal dispute will not go ahead after Rangers struck a deal with TEG that will see the firm become the Glasgow giants’ new “international touring partner.”
That will mean potential opportunities for Rangers to compete in lucrative international friendlies will open up – reportedly over the next three seasons.
Future tours to places such as North America, Asia or the Middle East are said to be under consideration.
Rangers CEO James Bisgrove commented on the deal struck between the two parties. He has been quoted as saying: “We’re delighted to team up with TEG and form this innovative commercial partnership that propels our international strategy into a new dimension.
“The collaboration will enable the Rangers’ first team to tour international markets, such as North America, Far East Asia and the Middle East, in the years ahead. Rangers Football Club is incredibly fortunate to have the most passionate and diverse supporter base in world football, and we are excited to bring our men’s first team to key international markets with the strong support of TEG as our partner.”
Whitaloadaguff – makes it look like sevco are doing TEG a huge favour!
Question for Mr Bisgrove:-
Are you sure you can afford the settlement fee?
Re John Clark on the 8th July at 23.37. John, I think the game you refer to at Tynecastle was the semi final v Portugal. I had my own, then 9 year old, son with me that night and was extremely concerned with the crushing. The final against the Saudi “boys” was played at Hampden.
neebs67
11th July 2023 at 20:11
‘…I think the game you refer to at Tynecastle was the semi final v Portugal. I had my own, then 9 year old, son with me that night and was extremely concerned.’
++++++++++
You’re right, of course, neebs67, and thanks for the correction.
I had been in many a football crush before then but never with anyone but other adults capable of fending for themselves.
Hillsborough had happened not long before and there was distinctive unease.
Curiously, I don’t remember seeing any specific reference to that aspect, but there must have been some very concerned police officers and such!
Peace deal.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66112807
paddy malarkey
14th July 2023 at 16:07
‘…Peace deal.’
+++++++
From the SPFL statement:
“Going forward, we have also agreed to commission an independent review of governance to help ensure the SPFL can avoid any such dispute in the future. This review will commence in October 2023.”
Good governance begins with doing the basics right, like ensuring that the Sport is run on the basis of honesty and integrity and in faithfulness to all the articles of Association of the two national governance bodies.
If the very rule enforcers tell porkies for filthy lucre’s sake, there’s little hope for any sport.
And appeasing a deceitful bully never did any good for Neville Chamberlain…
The best thing for Scottish Football is for the ‘governance bodies’ to insist that RFC of 1872, the football club that lost its share in the SPL and in consequence ceased to be entitled to membership of the SFA is in Liquidation and that the new club admitted to membership of the SFA in virtue of acquiring a share in the SFL in 2012 is not and cannot possibly be the Rangers of 1872, which had to transfer its share in the SPL to Dundee under the then SPL rules.
And follow that up with hard questions to the FCA about RIFC plc’s ‘Prospectus’ .
That would be proper ‘governance’!
On the subject of Scottish Football governance, I have just read (as no doubt many of you have) in the SFSA’s ‘Andy’s bulletin’ this perceptive observation:
“SRU Announce Record Sponsorship Deal with Scottish Gas
Scottish Gas teams up with Scottish rugby for a greener Scotland | Centrica plcIt’s a deal that got Centrica’s boss, Chris O’Shea on a plane north.
The amount is said to be £eight figures over 5 years i.e. way more than double our cinch undersell, (where peace has broken out) and infinitely more than either of our men’s cups get. (The previous biggest deal was £20M with BT and this is said to be bigger).
The headline elements of the deal are the ‘Naming of Murrayfield’ to the almost unrepeatable, ‘Scottish Gas Murrayfield” (which nobody will ever use), and the Women’s International Rugby tops are a makeweight.
But fair play to the SRU because they seem to have thought about this one, attracted, hooked and reeled in a potential sponsor who in the current confusion of unprecedented price rises, record profits and stop oil and gas protests has a need to be loved like never before and was an easy target
(Why were we not banging at their door?)..”
I’m not any kind of businessman [and am not in any way anti-rugby!] but I have to say that ‘Andy’ makes a significant point.
Football in Scotland seems not to be able to attract relatively up-market sponsors to anything like the same extent, in spite of being by far the major sport in Scotland, with relatively huge live attendances at games and huge media coverage.
Why is this?
This, of course, is Bastille day in France when a whole lot of bad bast..ts got their more or less just deserts for being rich and titled on the sweat, blood and tears of the common man.
Might there one day possibly be a ‘Hampden’ day when those in governance of Scottish Football who allowed and continue to propagate the Big Lie get their just deserts, and are metaphorically hanged at the nearest lamp post?
Magari!
So I see there is be a review of SPFL governance. Will this review go all the way back to 2012? If not, why not?
upthehoops 15th July at 17:58
“Will this review go all the way back to 2012?”
Ah hae mah doots UTH. The key querstion here is:-
What would the terms of reference be? (no laughing out loud!)
And this leads neatly to your next poser…
“If not, why not”
Any such farcical ‘review’ would necessarily have to avoid serious and embarrassing scrutiny of the insidious role played by our ‘trusted servants’ (!) and the SMSM in propagating and perpetrating the Big Lie. Credibilty ‘oot the windae’!
Therefore, the period you refer to would be ignored, indeed ‘airbrushed’ – thereby ending up with more questions than answers about the governance of Scottish Football over the last 20 years in particular. (Oh, wait a minute – Jim Farry was in office before then!).
bect67 15th July 2023 at 20:22
++++++++++++++++++++
Doncaster once stated to a reporter “they are the same club, absolutely”. He, along with Stewart Regan of the SFA, wanted the new Rangers admitted straight to the top league of the competition he is in charge of. He once said on TV he couldn’t understand why people are so against the idea of a newco. He has never once condemned the tax evasion which took place. Tax evasion which allowed the old Rangers a far better chance of winning trophies than they would have had if it was not used.
There is an awful lot that could be covered by a review of SPFL governance, although I suspect ‘Rangers’ would object to much of it being included. Doncaster has certainly been no enemy of them though, that’s for sure.
upthehoops
16th July 2023 at 17:39
‘…Doncaster once stated to a reporter “they are the same club, absolutely’
++++++++
It’s late of an evening, uth, and all of my stuff on the ‘death of RFC of 1872’ is up in the attic.
Being an auld geezer I will leave climbing up to the attic to look for the letter I wrote years ago to Doncaster and his reply to that letter until tomorrow!
I believe Doncaster is a lawyer by training? and from what I remember of his reply there was no such certainty but evasion.
But to be fair.
It was early days, and perhaps my letter was not all that hellishly well drafted and he was able to avoid addressing the question of ‘new club’ because I had not perhaps in effect posed that question!
But to be fair to myself, I think he dodged the column at the time and his later utterances suggest to me that he opted to buy into what I consider to be a ‘ Big Lie’ and has subsequently furthered and propagated what I consider to be a lie.
I’ll try to find his reply to my letter.
Peace dividend ?
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-bisgrove-elected-spfl-board-30482559
John Clark
16th July 2023 at 23:31
+++++++++++++
I once e-mailed Neil Doncaster. To my surprise he replied. He said the decision to award ‘continuity’ to the Newco was made by the Scottish Football League, at the time under the stewardship of David Longmuir. Let’s be honest though, they were always going to construct some kind of fantasy, given it involved the establishment club.
Never in ten million years would the same have been done for any other Scottish Club. In my opinion.
upthehoops
17th July 2023 at 14:35
‘… the decision to award ‘continuity’ to the Newco was made by the Scottish Football League, at the time under the stewardship of David Longmuir.”
+++++++++
Ah, yes. Longmuir!
A name to be conjured with.
I’ve just been on this link https://uk.linkedin.com/in/david-longmuir-3aa6b978
Won’t ever go near a golf course again!
The boy’s done well for himself and is very good at blowing his own trumpet.
He does not mention the fact that attributed to him is the ‘honour’ of having engineered the acceptance of what I consider to be the most ridiculous lie in the sporting history of Scottish Football!
Well, I suppose even he recognises that it is a dubious ‘honour’
Not that I know hellish much about golf, but I wonder where Longmuir is in the LIV golf debate?
Follow the money? Or what?
Naw, I don’t really wonder.
My post at 23.05 refers:
I found this of interest:
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/football/4437664/raith-rovers-fan-chief-hails-club-for-summoning-spirit-of-turnbull-hutton-in-opposition-to-conference-league/
“Russell cites former Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton when he famously stood on the steps of Hampden and was defiant in the face of plans to force liquidated Rangers into the second tier”
Remember that?
Longmuir’s CV suggests that he worked for Diageo for 20 years.
I wonder whether Turnbull, who also worked for Diageo, may have known him, or known of him ?
And perhaps felt justified on the steps of Hampden?
Who knows these things?
God rest Turnbull Hutton, honest man.
paddy malarkey
17th July 2023 at 13:31
Peace dividend ?
https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/james-bisgrove-elected-spfl-board-30482559
================
I don’t think it is. It would seem that the CEO’s of Sevco and Celtic alternate on the board one year on one year off. Stewart Robertson 17/18, 19/20, 21/22
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/SC175364/officers?page=3
Peter Lawwell 16/17, 18/19, 20/21 on Page 2
Michael Nicholson 22/23 currently on Page 1 as still Active but soon to be on Page 2
I see that recently odds have been offered on what team(s) will win the league, league cup, scottish cup etc. There appears to be one glaring omission. What are the odds being offered on Rangers conceding a penalty, or, is there odds on the current streak being extended.
This could be sore .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/scotland/66256891
This Longmuir
David Longmuir is facing calls for his resignation as the Scottish Football League chief executive continues to clash with his members over which division Charles Green’s newco Rangers should play in next season.
It also emerged that if Longmuir’s bid to launch Sevco Scotland Ltd directly into the First Division is rejected by the SFL clubs, then it will result in logistical chaos on the eve of the new season.
All 30 SFL clubs will meet at Hampden on Friday, when Longmuir will discover their response to a letter he sent out to them at the weekend.
The two main points of that document are that the clubs should first vote on whether or not to accept Sevco Scotland Ltd into the SFL, then, whether they are in favour of allowing the SFL Board (rather than the clubs) to choose which division they will compete in.
The second vote will hinge on the SFL gaining certain concessions from the SPL regarding play-offs and a fairer distribution of income.
Should Longmuir get his way, Board member and SFL President Jim Ballantyne, who is also chairman of Airdrie United, will decline to vote due to a conflict of interest, since the Lanarkshire outfit would, as losing play-off finalists, automatically be promoted to the First Division if Sevco (like any other new applicant) are forced to begin life in the bottom tier.
That will leave Longmuir, vice pres ident Ewen Cameron (Alloa), Anne McKeown (Arbroath), Malcolm Mackay (Queen’s Park), Gordon McDougall (Livingston), Gilbert Lawrie (Dumbarton), Ken Ferguson (Brechin) and Jim Leishman (Dunfermline) to decide the newco’s fate.
However, the contents of the letter have infuriated many SFL clubs, who regard the latest move as an attempt to hijack the democratic procedures of the organisation in order to ensure entry into the First Division for the new-look Rangers.
One chairman said: ‘What they’re attempting to do is scandalous. They’re just making up the rules as they go along.
straight 16-14 majority. I don’t think that anyone objects to this new Rangers joining the Third Division, but I believe there will be enough dissenters to prevent the Board from gerrymandering them into the First.
‘If Longmuir’s motion is rejected, then his competence would have to be questioned. This is all part of a bullying campaign, which was underlined last week when the SPL’s chief executive, Neil Doncaster, told us that the SPL clubs couldn’t afford to pay the annual £1.8million settlement fee to the SFL if Rangers drop into the Third Division and Sky walk away from their TV deal.
‘Meanwhile, the SFA’s chief executive, Stewart Regan, seems to want to exploit the Rangers crisis in order to push through his own reforms. He’s been working away at this for months.’
If the clubs allow Rangers to join the SFL, but then refuse to grant their Board permission to decide which division they should compete in, then Longmuir would be forced to call another general meeting on July 20 – SFL rules state that five working days’ notice must be given – to vote on that issue.
With the Ramsdens Cup beginning just eight days later, time is running out for the SFL to sort the mess out.
Should Rangers’ SPL place be taken by Dundee, they’ll be away to Brechin City: in the less likely event of Dunfermline avoiding demotion, Ally McCoist’s side will travel to Forfar
fan of football
20th July 2023 at 15:54
‘..This Longmuir.’
+++++++++
yes, fan of football! ( I read that report at the time, of course, but I can’t remember whether it was the BBC or one of the ‘better’ newspapers. Could you give the source of report, please?
Yes, that Longmuir.
The quote from ‘one chairman’ that “.‘What they’re attempting to do is scandalous. They’re just making up the rules as they go along” is a damning indictment of the spineless, gutless, unprincipled ‘Governance’ bodies.
And the ‘infuriated’ clubs were not so infuriated as to demand that TRFC be considered as a new club that had not kicked a ball in any kind of football league. The of the sound of the mutual scratching of backs can still be heard.
As for the hack who used the phrases:
‘Charles Green’s newco Rangers’
” ‘ Sevco Scotland Ltd’
‘if Sevco (like any other new applicant) are forced to begin life in the bottom tie’
‘for the new-look Rangers.’
All I can say is that I assume he knew the TRUTH but was prevented from telling it.
In my opinion if he did not resign, shame on him. What more dangerous untruths would he as a journalist be prepared to propagate rather than disobey his editor if he tells untruths in the trivial matter of sport?
We have been lied to not just by football cheats, but by the BBC and the ‘quality’ print Press.
John it was from the
Dialy mail on 8th july 2012 and the reporter was
George Grant
This is from the Daily Recrd on the 15th Aug 2013
SPFL to investigate claims of secret bonus payments to SFL chief David Longmuir
THE former chief executive of the now-defunct Scottish Football League has been accused of receiving secret six-figure sums by angered lower league clubs.
THE SPFL have launched an investigation into claims that secret bonus payments were made to former SFL chief David Longmuir.
Accountants for the SFL, as well as former board members Ewen Cameron of Alloa and Arbroath’s Anne McKeown, are examining the detail behind the payments as part of a winding down of the old league body.
Record Sport understands the possibility of Longmuir’s payments being clawed back in court has not been ruled out if the investigation decide there is cause to question the legalities of the payments.
This process was triggered by our revelation that the merger between the SPL and SFL was delayed when it became clear Longmuir was due to receive a £100,000 bonus for last season.
When SPL representatives refused to cough up, it was agreed the payment would be met from SFL funds. That effectively ended any hopes Longmuir had of beating the SPL’s Neil Doncaster to the new chief executive role – but it’s understood he received a £200,000 severance payment.
When 37 of the 42 SPFL clubs met at Hampden on Monday it emerged that Longmuir had received roughly £400,000 in bonuses – allegedly for bringing in fresh sponsorship.
Since most of the cash received came from the SPL’s TV deal – the SFL received £1m from the top tier for rights to Rangers’ games in the Third Division – the feeling at the meeting was Longmuir had not justified his bonus.
That the only other SFL board member aware of them was James Ballantyne also provoked fury. The SPFL board will now attempt to discover whether a proper process had been followed.
IIRC there was a something doing the rounds back then about some goings on regards the sevco placement saga back then
fan of football
21st July 2023 at 11:30
‘..it was from the
Dialy mail on 8th july 2012 and the reporter was
George Grant’
++++++++++
Thanks for that, fan of football
fan of football, on the subject of David Longmuir is it known whether there was ever in fact an ‘investigation’ of any kind into bonuses or whatever?
Can anyone tell me whether Longmuir hails from Coalburn in darkest Lanarkshire?
John
There was an investigation undertaken but I can’t find any link to the outcome
fan of football
23rd July 2023 at 18:48
‘..There was an investigation undertaken but I can’t find any link to the outcome’
++++++++++
Well, fan of football, I am not surprised.
There you have a bunch of businessmen, chancers in amongst them, boys on the make, shoddy businessmen, many of whom true to type have no regard for truth!
Investigation?
I would call out any board member who was part of any ‘investigation’!
Honest to God, what is football governance like in Scotland?
John
If I was a suspicious type ,I might think that many peepil were fully aware of the goings on regards the plan hatched to deal with the death of the old club and the fabrication of the BIG LIE .
Will the full truth ever out .I don’t think it will.
All those involved in the scheme though will have the stain of suspicion hanging over them for years to come .
How strange though that some peepil were vilified and prosecuted whilst others sailed through it with hardly a blemish on their character