Good Afternoon.
Announcing outstanding financial successes for Rangers PLC the then Chairman of the club opened his Chairman’s report in the annual financial statements with the following words:
“Last summer I explained that the Club, after many years of significant investment in our playing squad
and more recently in our state of the art facility at Murray Park, had embarked on a three year business
plan to stabilise and improve the Club’s finances. The plan also recognised the need to react to the
challenging economic conditions facing football clubs around the world.
Following a trend over a number of years of increasing year on year losses, I am pleased to report that
in the first year of this plan we have made important progress by reversing this trend. Our trading loss
for last year of £11.2m reflects a £7.9m improvement versus the £19.1m loss for the previous year and
although it will take more time to completely reach our goals, this is a key milestone. We also intend to
make significant further progress by the end of the current financial year. This improvement is the
consequence of having a solid strategy and the commitment and energy to implement the changes it requires”
Later on in the same statement the chairman would add:
“Another key part of our plan is associated with the Rangers brand and our Retail Division goes from strength to strength. Our financial results this year have been significantly enhanced by an outstanding performance in merchandising Rangers products, in particular replica kit, which makes our Retail Division one of the most successful in Europe.”
In the same set of financial reports, the CEO would report:
“To further strengthen Rangers hospitality portfolio, a new dedicated sponsor’s lounge was unveiled this season. The Carling Lounge is a first for the Club and was developed in conjunction with our new sponsor, Carling. ”
and
“Our innovative events programme continues to grow and this year saw a record number of official events including the highly successful annual Hall of Fame Awards Ceremony, Player of the Year and 50 Championships Gala Dinner, all of which catered for up to 1000 guests.
At Rangers, we continually develop our portfolio of products and as a key area of income for the Club, we evaluate the market for new revenue opportunities on an ongoing basis in order to exceed our existing and potential customer expectations and needs.
Demand for season tickets reached an all time high last season with a record 42,508 season ticket holders in comparison with the previous season`s figure of 40,320. Over 36,000 of these season ticket holders renewed for this season – a record number.
For the new season, we are delighted to welcome brewing giant, Carling on board as our Official Club sponsor. Carling is one of the UK’s leading consumer brands with a proven track record in football sponsorship.
The Club also continues to work with a number of multinational blue chip brands such as National Car Rental, Sony Playstation 2, Bank of Scotland and Coca-Cola. This year, we will also experience the evolution of the Honda deal via Hyndland Honda and welcome the mobile communications giant T-Mobile to our ranks.”.
The year was 2003 and in the previous 24 months Rangers Football Club, owned and operated as a private fiefdom by Sir David Murray, had made operational losses of some £30 million.
Yes – 30 MILLION POUNDS.
Of course the chairman’s report for 2003 was written by John F Mclelland CBE and the CEO was one Martin Bain Esq.
As Mr Mclelland clearly stated, by 2003 the club already had a trend of increasing year on year losses covering a number of years and was losing annual sums which stretched into millions, if not tens of millions, of pounds.
However, the acquisition of Rangers Football Club was absolutely vital to David Murray’s personal business growth, and his complete control of the club as his own private business key was more important than any other business decision he had made before buying Rangers or since.
When he persuaded Gavin Masterton to finance 100% of the purchase price of the club, Murray had his finest business moment.
By getting control of Rangers, Murray was able to offer entertainment, hospitality, seeming privilege and bestow favour on others in a way that was hitherto undreamed of, and he bestowed that largesse on any number of “existing and potential clients” and contacts – be they the clients and contacts related to Rangers Football Club or the existing and potential clients of David Murray, his businesses, his banks, or anyone in any field that he chose to court for the purposes of potential business.
His business.
It wasn’t only journalists who benefited from the succulent lamb treatment.
Accountants,lawyers, surveyors, broadcasters, football officials, people in industry and construction, utilities, financiers and other areas of business were all invited inside the sacred House of Murray and given access to the great man of business “and owner of Rangers” while attending the “record number of official (hospitality) events”.
Twelve months on from when John McLelland made those statements in the 2003 accounts, David Murray was back in the chair at Ibrox and he presented the 2004 financials.
In the intervening 12 months Rangers had gained an additional £10 million from Champions League income and had received £8.6 million in transfer fees from the sale of Messrs Ferguson, Amoruso and McCann. Not only that, the Rangers board had managed to reduce the club’s wage bill by £5 million. Taking all three figures together comes to some £23.6 million in extra income or savings.
Yet, the accounts for 2004 showed that the club made an operational loss of almost £6 million and overall debt had risen by an additional £7 million to £97.4 million.
However, the 2004 accounts were also interesting for another reason.
Rangers PLC had introduced payments “to employees trusts” into their accounts for the first time in 2001 and in that year they had paid £1million into those trusts. Just three years later, the trust payments recorded in the accounts had risen to £7.3 million per annum — or to put it another way to 25% of the annual wage bill though no one in Scottish Football asked any questions about that!
By the following year, the chairman announced that the 2004 operational loss had in fact been £10.4million but that the good news was that the 2005 operational loss was only £7.8 million. However Rangers were able to post a profit before taxation if they included the money obtained from transfers (£8.4 million) and the inclusion of an extraordinary profit of £14,999,999 made on buying back the shares of a subsidiary company for £1 which they had previously sold for £15 million.
All of which added up to a whopping great profit of ……… £12.4 million!
I will leave you to do the maths on 2005.
Oh and of course these accounts included the detail that 3000 Rangers fans had joined David Murray in participating in the November ’94 share issue where the club managed to raise £51,430,995 in fresh capital most of which was provided by Mr Murray… sorry I mean MIH ….. sorry that should read Bank of Scotland …… or their shareholders……. or should that be the public purse?
The notable items in the 2006 accounts included the announcement of a ten year deal with JJB Sports to take over the merchandising operation of the club and increased revenue from an extended run in the Champion’s League. However, the profit before tax was declared at only£0.1 million in comparison to the £12.4 million of the year before but then again that £12.4 million had included player sales of £8.4 million and the £15 million sweety bonus from the repurchase of ones own former subsidiary shares for £1.
Jumping to 2008 Rangers saw a record year in terms of turnover which had risen to £64.5 million which enabled the company to record a profit on ordinary activities before taxation of £6.57 million although it should be pointed out that wages and bonuses were up at 77% of turnover and that a big factor in the Rangers income stream was corporate hospitality and the top line of income was shown as “gate receipts and hospitality”.
However, 2009 saw a calamitous set of figures. Whilst Alastair Johnston tried to put a brave chairman’s face on it, the year saw an operating loss of £17.325 million which was softened only by player disposals leading to a loss before taxation of a mere £14.085 million.
Fortunately Sir David did not have to report these figures as he chose to stand down as chairman in August and so Johnston stepped in and announced that he was deeply honoured to do so.
In 2010, the income stream jumped from £39.7 million to over £56 million with the result that the club showed a profit before taxation of £4.209 million.
However, by that time the corporate hospitality ticket that was Rangers Football Club was done for as a result of matters that had nothing to do with events on the football field in the main.
First, the emergence of the Fergus McCann run Celtic had brought a real business and sporting challenge. This was something that Murray had not previously faced in the football business.
Second,the Bank of Scotland had gone bust and Lloyds could not and would not allow Murray to continually borrow vast sums of money on the basis of revalued assets and outrageous hospitality.
Third, the UEFA fair play rules came into being and demanded that clubs at least act on a semblance of proper corporate governance and fiscal propriety.
Lastly,Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tightened up the law on the use of EBT’s which meant that Rangers could no longer afford to buy in the players that brought almost guaranteed success against domestic opposition.
On average, since 2002 Rangers PLC had lost between £7 million – £8 million per year – or roughly £650,000 per month if you like – yet for the better part of a decade David Murray had been able to persuade the Bank of Scotland that this was a business that was worthy of ever greater financial support or that he himself and his MIH business was of such value that the Banks should support him in supporting the Ibrox club whilst operating in this fashion.
Of course, had Murray’s Rangers paid tax on all player remunerations then the losses would have been far larger.
Meanwhile, all the other clubs in Scottish football who banked with the Bank of Scotland faced funding cuts and demands for repayment with the bank publicly proclaiming that it was overexposed to the football market in Scotland.
But no one asked any questions about why the bank should act one way with Murray’s club but another way with all others. No one in football, no one in the media and no one from the world of business.
Looking back,it is hard to imagine a business which has been run on such a consistent loss making basis being allowed to continue by either its owners or by its bankers. However, a successful and funded Rangers was so important to the Murray group that David Murray was clearly willing to lose millions year after year to keep the Gala dinners and corporate hospitality going.
Rangers were Murray’s big PR vehicle and the club was essentially used by him to open the doors which would allow him to make more money elsewhere on a personal basis and if it meant Rangers cutting every corner and accumulating massive losses, unsustainable losses, then so be it.
Today, the new regime at Ibrox run the current business in a way which clocks up the same colossal annual losses whilst the club competes outwith Scotland’s top division. Each day we hear that the wage bill is unsustainable, that the playing staff are overpaid, that the stadium needs massive investment and that the fans are opposed to the stadium itself being mortgaged and the club being in hawk to lenders.
Yet, in the Murray era the Stadium was revalued time and time again and its revaluation was used as the justification for ever greater borrowing on the Rangers accounts. The playing staff were massively overpaid and financially assisted by the EBT’s and most years the Chairman’s annual statement announced huge losses despite regular claims of record season ticket sales, record hospitality income, European income, shirt sponsorship and the outsourcing of all merchandising to JJB sports instead of Sports Direct.
The comparison between the old business and the current one is clear for all to see.
It should be noted, that since the days of Murray, no major banking institution has agreed to provide the Ibrox business with any banking facilities. Not under Whyte, not under Green, not under anyone.
Yet few ask why that should be.
The destruction of the old Rangers business led those in charge of Scottish football to announce that Armageddon was on the horizon if it had not actually arrived, yet today virtually all Scottish clubs are in a better financial and business state than back in the bad old days of the Bank of Scotland financed SPL. Some have succumbed to insolvency, and others have simply cut their cloth, changed their structure, sought, and in some cases attracted, new owners and moved on in terms of business.
In general, Scottish Football has cleaned house at club level.
Now, David Murray has “cleaned house” in that MIH has bitten the dust and walked down insolvency road.
What is interesting is that the Murray brand still has that capacity to get out a good PR message when it needs to. Despite the MIH pension fund being short of money for some inexplicable reason, last week it was announced that the family controlled Murray Estates had approached those in charge of MIH and had agreed to buy some key MIH assets for something in the region of £13.9 million.
The assets concerned are land banks which at some point will be zoned for planning and which will undoubtedly bring the Murray family considerable profit in the future, with some of those assets already looking as if they will produce a return sooner rather than later.
However, what is not commented upon in the mainstream press is the fact that Murray Estates had the ability to pay £13.9 Million for anything at all and that having that amount of money to spend the Murray camp has chosen not to buy any football club down Govan way.
Perhaps, it has been realised that a football club which loses millions of pounds each year is not such a shrewd investment and that the Murray family money would be better spent elsewhere?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the culture of wining, dining, partying and entertaining to the most lavish and extravagant extent will not result in the banks opening their vaults any more?
Perhaps, it has been realised that the Rangers brand has been so badly damaged over the years that it is no longer the key to the golden door in terms of business, finance and banking and that running a football club in 2015 involves a discipline and a set of skills that David Murray and his team do not have experience of?
What is clear, is that the Murray years at Ibrox were not good for the average Rangers fan in the long term and that when you have a football club – any football club – being run for the private benefit of one rich individual, or group of individuals, then the feelings and passions of the ordinary fan will as often as not be forgotten when that individual or his group choose to move on once they have decided that they no longer wish to play with their toy football club.
David Murray did not make money directly out of Rangers Football Club. He used it as a key to open other doors for him and to get him a seat at other tables and into a different type of “club” altogether. He did not run the club in a day to day fashion that was designed to bring stability and prolonged financial, or playing, success to the club. its investors and its fans. He did not preside over Ibrox during a period of sustained financial gain.
Mike Ashley will not subsidise 2015 version of Rangers to anything like the same extent that the Bank of Scotland did in the 90’s and naughties.
However, Ashley, like Murray, will use his control of the Rangers brand to open doors for him elsewhere in the sports retail market, and he will use the Rangers contract with Sports Direct to make a handsome profit. He will also control all the advertising revenue just as he does at Newcastle. In short, Mr Ashley is only interested in The Rangers with a view to using it as a stepping stone to achieve other things elsewhere.
However, don’t take my word for any of this, take the opinion of someone who knows.
Mr Dave King is quoted today as saying the following about the current board of Directors who are in charge of the current Ibrox holding company.
“History will judge this board as one of the worst the club has ever had. There is not one individual who puts the club above personal interest.”
That is an interesting observation from a man who became a non executive director of the old Rangers holding company in 2000 and who had a front row pew for every set of accounts and all the financial statements referred to above.
Whether or not Mr King is a glib and shameless liar is a matter of South African judicial opinion. Whether or not he can spot someone who puts their own self interest ahead of the interests of Rangers Football Club and the supporters of the club is a matter that should be discussed over some fine wine, some succulent lamb and whatever postprandial entertainment you care to imagine.
I wonder if he has ever read the accounts of Rangers PLC and compared them to the corresponding accounts of MIH for the same period?
redlichtie says:
February 14, 2015 at 12:37 pm
tcup 2012 says:
February 14, 2015 at 12:32 pm
Cluster one
Should that not be
Remember NEVER Gamble
======================================
Did someone not once say “I’ll gamble £10 for every £5 you gamble..”?
How did that turn out?
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But did they get their original stake back even though the taxpayers had to pick-up the mega losses caused by the madness?
It looks to me as though they did with bells on 😎
The only people who lost were Scottish Football and the taxpayers and the family dynasty continues – apparently largely unscathed.
Cluster One says:
February 14, 2015 at 12:15 pm
the comments on the gambling
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If you borrow £10. put it on at 2/1 you win £30. Give the £10 back you borrowed then you are £20 up unless the one you borrowed from charged you interest 😕
A small tip on how to work out your winnings if you place a bet say £10 at 7/4.
1. Add 7 and 4 = 11
2. Multiply your stake£10 x11 =£110
3.Divide by the lowest number in your odds, so it will be 4 this time.£110 divided by 4 =£27.50 will be your return.
£10 at 7/2.7+2=9
£10 x9= £90. divided by 2 = £45 return
Remember to always gamble sensibly
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Does that mean that by placing a winning bet you are £35 better-off than if you hadn’t placed the bet?
I think – possibly as always – it’s a matter of definition and I simply don’t accept that the original stake can be classed as ‘winnings’. The stake is returned as is because tou win – possibly subject to betting tax but as I don’t gamble I can’t be sure about that.
‘Winnings’ to me are what you get returned in addition to the original stake which is the punter’s money up until the point they make a losing bet.
At that point it becomes ‘winnings’ for the Bookie. However it’s in the interest of Turf Accountants to con the punter and keep them hooked on theor addiction and sadly it seems they still do so with ease 🙄
scottc says:
February 14, 2015 at 12:11 pm
That would be correct. £10 at 2/1, pays out £20 plus your £10 stake, so £30. Money tripled
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Nail on head Gabby – it is sevconomics. Punters who lose a £10 bet at 2/1 never say they lost £30. They never even admit to losing a tenner because they know the punter always loses over the piece and that’s what the bookie’s ‘book’ is designed to achieve and that’s why bets that have a chance of winning are laid-off.
However I learnt from an early age the total futility of trying to make a gambler accept reason – they have an illness and I’m not sure there’s actually a cure.
I remember my long gone granny sniffing her snuff out of a newspaper cone sagely remarking: ‘The only winner’s the bookie’.
She also observed that it was better to have an alcoholic as a husband than a gambler because the drinker would eventually pass out and there might be some pennies left in their pocket to feed the kids. There never was with a gambler – they threw away every penny!
I have seen nothing in my life to dissuade me of the accuracy of her observations.
And with online and telly betting I think a lot more families are suffering the scourge of ‘a little bit of fun’. Sadly gamblers are very secretive wrt their losses which ultimately bring devastating consequences to their door and family.
Mine too. When did that happen?
TSFM
Hope I have this right ,allyjambo can confirm but it was at the early days of TSFM.
jambocol1874 says:
February 14, 2015 at 2:38 pm
Upthehoops.
Im a good 5 years away from taking any moral high ground on how we are run.
========================
I appreciate what you’re saying. However it’s good to see the new incumbents have the right approach.
TSFM says:
February 14, 2015 at 11:05 am
The Gary Ralston piece in the record is quite appalling…
It appears that the DR have set themselves up as the judges in the SFA’s Franchise Awarding operation, making the decision on who they deem fit and proper…
The DR is engaged in a battle for it’s own survival, placing all their eggs in the DK basket….
==========================================
The recent DR articles do seem to almost taunt those in power at TRFC.
It’s a rather high risk strategy to go with DK.
And despite any private, personal assurances DK may have given to the DR, he is not the…erm…most reliable of people ?!
But then again, the DR has had plenty of experience of performing shameless u-turns in their reporting. 🙄
ecobhoy and others who warn of the fate of gamblers and receive thumbs down for their sterling efforts – do we have turf accountants in our audience?
@Billy Boyce you shirley aren’t referring to someone Topping something?
theredpill says:
February 14, 2015 at 3:43 pm
TSFM says:
February 14, 2015 at 10:19 am
A wee note re moderation.
Firstly, the mods are not always right.
Yes I remember having to get my jaw off the floor when alljambo was banned,temporarily thank goodness,glad the Mods seen the light : D
Mine too. When did that happen?
TSFM
__________
News to me. Must have happened when I was asleep 😐 or on holiday 😀
Had a couple of posts deleted, though. Must have been the drink, that TSFM’s got a terrible thirst 😉
RyanGosling says:
February 14, 2015 at 11:51 am
Ecobhoy,
I’ve had the conversation with several Rangers fans putting forth the argument you did – that buying into the club now, while admirable (in my view) is not worthwhile, and we should be pooling our money for what comes next. The issue is the “history”. A very good discussion I had with a very intelligent man resulted in him explaining that starting again was not an option in his view, as we would lose all the history so we had to fight for it.
The fans will never unite behind any new start club because the majority of them believe it is the same club it always was, not in any “spirit of the club” type of idea but the exact same legal entity.
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I have always argued that a club can never die as long as there are fans who support it. Simply because, they carry the history in their hearts and minds. No one can buy that – it belongs to the individuals who make-up the fanbase and I don’t think any club is different from any other in this respect.
Wrt to buying into the club I have never seen any of the fan groups or organisations involved explain ‘dilution’ and I feel this could well be another rude awakening further down the line. But it’s their money so up to them how they spend it.
The biggest problem IMO is that Rangers will possibly never again be the club it was and as long as Bears close their eyes and minds to that reality then they will be robbed-blind by the spivs infesting Ibrox.
I truly sympathise with their dilemma because I happen to believe that a club chooses the supporter – for various reasons – and supporters that choose a club in my experience often tend to be glory hunters.
Clinging to the ‘Old Ways’ at Ibrox isn’t a realistic financial option IMO and I think the vast bulk of RRM with money are fully aware of that.
Society has and is moving on and we are looking at an ever-diminishing enclave that sees the Club as the standard bearer for issues and beliefs which have no actual connection with football.
I actually am beginning to think that MA has decided to throw-down the gauntlet on this issue and is prepared to excise Scotland’s secret shame.
I would be an out and out supporter if that’s what he’s about. But maybe it’s just about making profits and abusing Scottish Football in the process either by accident or design.
The bottom-line is Bears will need to decide at some stage whether they would rather have an extinct club with it’s history intact or continue to play in blue shirts under the Rangers name.
And I think the key might be preparing to walk-away from Ibrox and building a modern cost-effective stadium preferably in the Ibrox or Govan area.
You’re right IMO – the future lies with a new set of Gallant Pioneers who embrace Scotland as the country where their club is proud to be based. Their sad insistence of being something else in Union terms is – well simply sad.
English, Welsh and NI clubs are quite simply just that. They don’t represent the UK but their own countries – that’s what they are part of.
And this is the real problem with Rangers’ history IMO. It isn’t actually their footballing achievements but all the historical and religious baggage that’s interwoven into the club’s history.
However – as I say time and time again – it is up to Rangers supporters to decide the kind of club they want to support and they will be judged on it.
But they must bear in mind that the day of any other club in Scotland being treated as inferior by The Establishment or Footballing Authorities will no longer be tolerated.
We all deserve to be treated equally and nothing less is acceptable! Why would anyone who isn’t a supremacist and who believes in sporting integrity think there’s anything wrong with that stance?
Billy Boyce says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:09 pm
ecobhoy and others who warn of the fate of gamblers and receive thumbs down for their sterling efforts – do we have turf accountants in our audience?
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Naw – Probably the next SPFL sponsor 😎
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:23 pm
“I have always argued that a club can never die as long as there are fans who support it. Simply because, they carry the history in their hearts and minds.”
I’m sorry but this is the kind of puerile nonsense that allows the deluded to argue black is white. My 13 year old golden retriever was knocked down and killed by a car many years ago. Her history is still very much in my and my family’s hearts and minds. She is however, unquestionably dead, and would remain so even if I were to prop her up wearing a “Born in 1872” t-shirt.
Cluster One says:
February 14, 2015 at 10:49 am
How will the SMSM report TRFC now in third position in the championship.
1.Demoted.
2.Relegated.
3.Reformed in third place.
4.Reamerged.
5.Re-grouped.
6.Beginning in third place.
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I have to say that last night’s game surprised me in many ways.
I saw a re-energised Rangers playing with more commitment than I have seen before this season. They were unlucky IMO especially with the hand ball decision at one nil down and if the penalty had been awarded and scored then who knows how how it would have turned-out.
I was also more than surprised by the turnout and wondered if the success of the demo organisers had actually brought out a lot of missing ST holders who decided to go to the game after the demo ended.
And then there was the single lone player – he certainly has talent and looks promising although obviously not fully match fit.
If his four colleagues are even half as good as him then IMO Rangers will have no difficulty in being in the play-off or better.
However as for so long with Rangers their future is probably more dependant on off-field results than what happens on the park.
Having said all that I think Hibs made a bit of heavy weather dealing with the Ibrox side and I don’t see Hearts going down that road.
Still nice to see that the Board feel it’s now safe to watch the team – they might even decide it’s not too dangerous to hold an egm in their stadium.
I just can’t get it out of my head that if it’s unsafe to steward 2-3,000 Bears at a general meeting so how can they possibly be allowed to hold a safety certificate for matches possibly having unusually large crowds of 15k to steward?
Highlander says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:05 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:23 pm
RyanGosling says:
February 14, 2015 at 11:51 am
Ecobhoy,
“I have always argued that a club can never die as long as there are fans who support it. Simply because, they carry the history in their hearts and minds.”
I’m sorry but this is the kind of puerile nonsense that allows the deluded to argue black is white. My 13 year old golden retriever was knocked down and killed by a car many years ago. Her history is still very much in my and my family’s hearts and minds. She is however, incontrovertibly dead.
————————————————
What team did she play for or support?
If you don’t accept my position then it appears you may believe that a club’s history can be bought and sold. That really is up to you but having seen the damage that particular fiction has inflicted on Rangers by the spivs it isn’t one I accept.
I recently lost my cat of 15 years who only spoke Russian and I miss her every day because she used to tramp the forests with me because she thought she was a dog.
I have also had many of my dogs die over the last 60 odd years of my life and I never ever learnt what team they supported nor indeed if they knew the history of any particular club although I’m sure they must have at least have recognised the word ‘Celtic’.
Thinking about it, most usually had some tartan on them so mibbe they were Scotland supporters. Most are buried in the forest although some have had their ashes scattered in the mountains because they used to roam the high places with me.
To end, might I suggest that your dearly departed dog might have different memories of her life then those you have. Doesn’t make the loss any easier to accept but is your point actually relevant.
I know that if my club died tomorrow or had died in the 90s then I would still carry all the memories I and other fans had of it. No one can take that away from me and no one can buy it IMO and attach it to any other club.
If you think that’s ‘puerile nonsense’ then feel free to do so. Who do you think is the holder of your club’s memories always assuming you are a football supporter of course.
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 4:38 pm
Nail on head Gabby – it is sevconomics. Punters who lose a £10 bet at 2/1 never say they lost £30. They never even admit to losing a tenner because they know the punter always loses over the piece and that’s what the bookie’s ‘book’ is designed to achieve and that’s why bets that have a chance of winning are laid-off.
However I learnt from an early age the total futility of trying to make a gambler accept reason – they have an illness and I’m not sure there’s actually a cure.
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However in football betting the punter would say that !***!*! referee cost me thirty quid should some ‘ridiculous decision’ have meant that his finely judged £10 bet at 2-1 loses.
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:31 pm
“If you don’t accept my position then it appears you may believe that a club’s history can be bought and sold”
Quite simply, no.
“I know that if my club died tomorrow or had died in the 90s then I would still carry all the memories I and other fans had of it. No one can take that away from me and no one can buy it IMO and attach it to any other club.”
…..and fans of a now deceased club will also have treasured memories of glorious achievements from the past – I’m not eradicating them nor taking them away! However, any achievements attained from 2012 on will be in respect of a new club, in my opinion of course. Probably best to leave the OC/NC debate for elsewhere though.
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:31 pm
Highlander says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:05 pm
I have enjoyed reading your first posts on Jambo Kickback after your lurking there for 5 years.
I always love to see a lurker come out of the shadows and express an opinion however dissing another poster for speaking ‘puerile nonsense’ just because you don’t agree with their opinion is a tad harsh IMO.
Btw we have a newco/oldco club thread here where I’m sure you be able to express your views to your heart’s content.
I’ll leave you to it as I tend to find most of the simplistic and spouted by rote oldco/newco discussions a little ‘puerile’.
Honest views on EGM and potential future board members from Rangers blog (Ibrox Noise)
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/758564331?-11344:801
ulyanova says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:40 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 4:38 pm
However in football betting the punter would say that !***!*! referee cost me thirty quid should some ‘ridiculous decision’ have meant that his finely judged £10 bet at 2-1 loses.
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You may well be correct because on reflection I do hear football punters regularly exclaim about football bets that go down the Swanee which isn’t how it used to be with horses and dogs – punters tended to keep quiet about losing bets and if they were mentioned the sum lost was seldom. if ever, revealed.
The only exception I remember is people who put on very complex accumulators – I think they’re called – who would bore the pants off everyone about the millions they would have won if only . . . 😆
And that might be linked-in with doing the pools in the old days and all the variations.
Back in the day, serious punters like my dad put their bet ‘on the nose’ and it seemed to be very non-macho to even place it each-way. Perhaps times have changed as I can honestly say I don’t think I now know anyone who is a serious gambler on horses or dogs.
There are just so many other things to gamble on but maybe people place bets from their mobie and no longer go into bookies or fill-out betting slips in pubs or workplaces.
But what you say in a way reinforces how successful the betting industy has been in creating a belief that a punter getting back their original stake perceives it to be ‘winnings’.
I’ve always been of the opinion I would rather have half a crown in my pocket than the chance of winning 10 bob 😆
Regardless of the reasons or machinations behind the DR ban from Ibrox, the fact is their representatives are currently not welcome at the place.
I wonder how they would report it if others who had been banned from a football ground (I know, I know, it would generally be for a serious reason) were discovered to be going there anyway.
valentinesclown says:
February 14, 2015 at 7:01 pm
Honest views on EGM and potential future board members from Rangers blog (Ibrox Noise)
http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/758564331?-11344:801
————————————————————-
I think it’s a fairly honest reading of the difficult choices a lot of Bear shareholders face.
And to me the biggest problem is that no matter who wins the egm vote they aren’t guaranteed to succeed or survive in the longer term and neither is Rangers.
It’s not my club but I believe it has an element of economic importance to the Scottish Game through the size of its support although its death wouldn’t IMO prove fatal to Scottish Football.
However it will be replaced and whether people believe that new entity has any connection to the previous history of earlier incarnations is up to them.
As I have always stated – IMO losing some of the historical baggage would benefit the club but the Bears are the only ones who can make that choice.
But in making it there is no way the club can ever return to the ‘Old Ways’. Even if DK is successful these days have gone IMO – They are dead and can never be resurrected.
Kicker Conspiracy says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:02 pm
Regardless of the reasons or machinations behind the DR ban from Ibrox, the fact is their representatives are currently not welcome at the place.
===================================
TBH the banning of any news organisation from a football club (even one as c**p as the record) should be a cause for concern for all football fans.
The limitations of the SMSM are exacerbated by pressure brought by clubs who use the threat of banning/passing stories to competitors in order to control reporting.
Worth bearing in mind that Mike Ashley is a serial offender in this respect at Newcastle United.
parttimearab says: February 14, 2015 at 12:33 pm
redlichtie says: February 14, 2015 at 9:18 am
Deal could be an Ashley supported pre-pack administration
==========================================================
I notice that Paul Murray was in one of the papers today rubbishing the likelihood of admin due to the existence of an alternative funding offer.
Regardless of that I think MA would be unlikely to be keen on admin – as a secured creditor he’d need to take a back seat in any admin.
Also, as far as we know they’re debt free (other than the MA loan) so the creditors controlling the admin would presumably be a mixed bunch of relatively recent unpaid creditors (with the players taking up a big chunk of the unsecured debt ❓ ).
Would any admin become too messy (assuming the above) and how would they fund it ❓
========================================
I assume when you are talking about a pre-pack you are talking about TRFC Ltd.
It just so happens that the TRFC Ltd accounts to June 2014 have just been submitted to Companies House.
There is very little difference between the RIFC and TRFC accounts, excepting the internal company balance standing at £15.667M (RIFC the creditor and TRFC the debtor)
The note relating to this balance reads as follows:
“Amounts owed to parent company are unsecured, are payable on demand and do not accrue interest. The parent company have indicated that there in no intention to recall the balance in the foreseeable future.”
So there you have it. The major unsecured creditor in an admin process for TRFC would be the parent company RIFC.
Eco, I think you’re being a bit naughty and winding some folk up by only partially stating your OC/NC views to hook them into a non-existent argument. You stated clearly in your post the other day that you would attend future matches between Celtic and “Rangers” because you knew it was a different team/club. I think that, like you, most people would be happy for ‘old Rangers’ fans to cherish the memories/history as well as supporting the ‘new Rangers’. Also, like you most people would be happy for those old/new Rangers fans to accept that it is a new club who cannot add to the history they cherish. That’s where it breaks down, of course.
I know you’re proud of sometimes being a wind up merchant, but stop trying to reel people in, eh? Lol.
easyJambo says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:29 pm
parttimearab says: February 14, 2015 at 12:33 pm
redlichtie says: February 14, 2015 at 9:18 am
=============================================
I may have been guilty of not asking Red Light is to clarify…. 😳
I was referring to RIFC….I guess where TRFC are concerned it would come down to whether they could go for admin with another funding package available….or would that be an issue as they’re a subsidiary of RIFC ❓ ❓ ❓
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:55 pm
ecobhoy, I’m sorry if my mention of “puerile nonsense” offended you, but I stand by it, and my right to say it, not least because if we all had identical thoughts, there’d be little point in discussion fora such as this. I very much respect you as a poster and I probably agree with around 99% of your input on TSFM and take the view that the high quality of your posts means that when you do say something contentious, it will naturally stand out.
I’d also like to thank you for quoting my post from Jambos Kickback, which pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter, and is, I believe, from much lurking on my part, reflective of the opinion of the vast majority of Scottish football fans.
However, as we’ve both pointed out, this debate shouldn’t be clogging up this part of TSFM, so I’ll endeavour to say no more about it.
parttimearab says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:17 pm
TBH the banning of any news organisation from a football club (even one as c**p as the record) should be a cause for concern for all football fans.
———————————
As a fan of Glasgow Celtic, I have absolutely no concerns with The Daily Record being banned from any Club. They are not objective and actively use their platform to routinely have a pop at anything not associated with RFC/TRFC.
In many respects, especially sports, I do not in any way see them as a ‘news organisation’!
Madbhoy24941 says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:47 pm
As a fan of Glasgow Celtic, I have absolutely no concerns with The Daily Record being banned from any Club.
==================================================
Madbhoy, I understand where your coming from here and frankly I have little time for any of the red tops but where do you draw the line?
Looks like I have my jambo,s mixed up was it easyjambo ?
If not senile dementia definitely lol
Looks like I have my jambo,s mixed up was it easyjambo ?
If not senile dementia definitely lol
I terms of gambling I live in New Zealand and we do not have bookmakers! We have a nationwide TAB. Two days ago I placed a $20 bet that Celtic would win at Perth. The odds were 1.35. That’s right, decimal. My return is 20 x 1.35 ie $27 and thus my profit was $7. I am contemplating placing my $27 on Celtic to win on Thursday. The odds are probably about $1.90. If Celtic win I have $51.30 or an extra $31.30. If Celtic lose or draw I have 0.
Fractional odds are so old fashioned. Why don’t Scottish bookmakers adopt the decimal system? For instance what are the best returning odds at a glance 8/13 or 3/5 ?
What are the best returning odds $1.24 or $1.33
I guarantee every punter knew the decimal answer instantly.
For the arithmetically challenged the first fraction is slightly better than the second.
The Cat NR1 says:
February 14, 2015 at 2:28 am
Barcabhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 1:50 am
If you can treble your money on odds of 2/1 then why aren’t bookies dressed like ragged trousered philanthropists.
I don’t bet however I would have thought doubling your money and getting your original stake back was how it would work ?
==========================================
2/1 traditional odds is 3.0 in modern decimal odds.
If for example “Blackie” backs Hibs at Simmo’s Bookies at 3.0(2/1), he would put a tenner on and get back £30 if the bet won, i.e. 3 x £10.
Even money (2.0 decimal) would double the stake. The 2 in 2/1 represents Simmo’s stake and the 1 represents Blackie’s, with the winner taking the combined 3.
Hibs were about 2.75 this afternoon, which is 7/4 and were backed down to about 2.50 or 6/4 by KO, as punters piled in after work. I’m not sure if in-play got as high as 2s, as the first goal came fairly early so odds hadn’t drifted too much. Strangely, the in-play Hibs win odds stayed around the 5/8 (8/5on or 1.625) to 4/6 (6/4on or 1.667) marks from when Hibs scored nearly through to the second goal, which reflected the improved TRFC performance and territorial advantage.
Don’t even ask about American odds!
=======================================
Reposted from last night.
Highlander says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:05 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:23 pm
“I have always argued that a club can never die as long as there are fans who support it. Simply because, they carry the history in their hearts and minds.”
I’m sorry but this is the kind of puerile nonsense that allows the deluded to argue black is white. My 13 year old golden retriever was knocked down and killed by a car many years ago. Her history is still very much in my and my family’s hearts and minds. She is however, unquestionably dead, and would remain so even if I were to prop her up wearing a “Born in 1872″ t-shirt.
=============================
My beloved cat passed away in my arms a few years back and I still miss her now.
I am a shareholder in two football club PLCs, and both of those clubs (not PLCs at the time) nearly went bust in the last twenty years. Had I and other supporters not backed our emotional support up by purchasing shares with our own cash, one or both of those clubs would have died. A new start placebo may help fill the gap on Saturday afternoons, but I and the other part-owners know that it wouldn’t be the real thing, whatever Sky/BBC/MSM would try to tell us.
The club would be as deceased as my lovely much missed pet.
nawlite says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:31 pm
Eco, I think you’re being a bit naughty and winding some folk up by only partially stating your OC/NC views to hook them into a non-existent argument. You stated clearly in your post the other day that you would attend future matches between Celtic and “Rangers” because you knew it was a different team/club. I think that, like you, most people would be happy for ‘old Rangers’ fans to cherish the memories/history as well as supporting the ‘new Rangers’. Also, like you most people would be happy for those old/new Rangers fans to accept that it is a new club who cannot add to the history they cherish. That’s where it breaks down, of course.
I know you’re proud of sometimes being a wind up merchant, but stop trying to reel people in, eh? Lol.
———————————————-
@Nawlite – I think it would be nice to get the actual sequence of events correct.
I responded to Ryan in quite a lengthy post at 5:23 pm tonight. The post wasn’t actually about OCNC which I seldom discuss because I find it a circular, rather boring argument which people tend to have highly fixed positions on. I also don’t regard it as very important in the grand scheme of Scottish Football.
Highlander responded to one tiny bit of my post to Ryan at 6.05 which he described as ‘puerile nonsense’ and cited his dead labrador to back-up his rather offensive comment.
How you think that is me ‘hooking’ or ‘reeling’ anyone into a non-existent argument is quite frankly beyond me. Indeed if you read my response to Highlander you will see that I made it clear I had no interest in the OCNC argument and referred him to the OCNC thread.
The reason I did that is he seemed to have an interest in OCNC because on Jambo Kickback after 5 years of lurking he made his first post on the subject a couple of weeks ago which created a bit of a tizzy. I simply lost interest in OCNC years ago and obviously Highlander is a latecomer to the subject so I directed him to the thread where he would find other like himself.
If you actually read the relevant posts you will see exactly what was said and I’m afraid you have got it totally wrong.
And you’ve got it totally wrong when you say I would be happy if Rangers fans accepted they couldn’t add anything in terms of memories after 2012.
It’s up to individual Rangers fans to decide for themselves what they believe or don’t believe. I happen to believe that any supporter is entitled to believe whatever they want to wrt OCNC and whether I think it wrong, ludicrous, insane or totally acceptable doesn’t really matter.
I am also of the school that doesn’t require contrition, confession and acceptance of my views from anyone to be able to discuss their opposition viewpoint.
As to the winding-up joke you seem to have missed the humour in that which came from a post wrt my first job which entailed winding-up the office clock and heating boiler.
I don’t intentionally wind anyone up but I fully accept that some people do get would-up about things I say possibly because I make my position very clear.
I trust that clears matters up and sets the record straight and I commend you to read the posts in question and you may even wish to retract or apologise for some of your comments.
If not it doesn’t matter – I will still respond to you on issues you raise which interest me 😆
Billy Boyce says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:09 pm
The clue’s in the name 😉
As regards the betting dispute, I think the first comment was something along the lines of “backing Hibs at 2/1 and trebling your money”
This is correct, you are trebling your money. You aren’t winning treble your money but are multiplying by 3 your original cash.
If you bought something with your last £10 and sold it for £30, you would make £20 profit but the money in your pocket would be trebled.
The Cat NR1 says:
February 14, 2015 at 10:24 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:23 pm
Rather than take a tiny fragment of a long post specifically dealing with a much wider issue than OCNC it might assist understanding if you read the post at 5.23pm tonight.
Just as I was sorry to hear of Higlander’s dead labrador I am sorry to hear of your cat passing away because I too lost mine recently and I know how you feel.
However, hard as it is to accept, all three animals are dead. I think the point that is being missed is that the supporters who believe their club is still alive are actually still alive themselves.
You may not agree with their beliefs but it is highly unlikely you will change them. When I have to deal with situations like that in real life then I work with the bits where agreement exists.
The hope is of course that we can eventually reach agreement eventually on the areas of disagreement although often that consists of agreeing to disagree.
And that is the bottom line. People have the absolute right to decide for themselves what they want to believe no matter how opposed other people are to that opinion.
However that is my last word on the subject and as I have advised others – if you want to discuss OCNC then the relevant thread is the place to go. It looks as though it might be busy tonight.
You’ll excuse me I hope if I don’t put in an appearance 😎
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 10:41 pm
“if you read my response to Highlander you will see that I made it clear I had no interest in the OCNC argument and referred him to the OCNC thread. The reason I did that is he seemed to have an interest in OCNC because on Jambo Kickback after 5 years of lurking he made his first post on the subject a couple of weeks ago which created a bit of a tizzy.”
__________________________________________
Just to give that a bit of context, I am a lifelong jambo, and when I posted on Jambos Kickback in support of the Celtic fans recent advert regarding the new Rangers, I was pilloried by some fellow-jambos for being a Celtic fan! Perhaps I’m unusual but, as I find difficult to explain to some jambos, I love Hearts, but that doesn’t mean I automatically hate Hibs. Indeed I’ll be delighted if they join Hearts in the Premiership next season. I find it equally difficult to explain that holding those in our (allegedly) corrupt football authorities accountable for dereliction of duty and the abandonment of sporting integrity does not make me a Rangers-hater.
Anyway, back on topic, which I believe is working out the odds of our domestic pets being immortal. 😉
parttimearab says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:57 pm
Madbhoy24941 says:
February 14, 2015 at 8:47 pm
As a fan of Glasgow Celtic, I have absolutely no concerns with The Daily Record being banned from any Club.
==================================================
Madbhoy, I understand where your coming from here and frankly I have little time for any of the red tops but where do you draw the line?
————————————————
I think what peturbs me about the DR ban is that afaik there has been no clear reason given for the ban.
In the absence of such explanation we are witnessing bully-boy tactics whereby if the media knuckle-down then we are back to Square 1 wrt succulent lamb.
I’m no defender of the DR in recent times but for many decades it did excellent work and truly was ‘The Voice of Scotland’.
I also happen to believe that the Record has a right to take an editorial policy decision on who it backs in the struggle for Rangers. It obviously has and it has made it clear.
This isn’t IMO a simple one-off story which can objectively report both sides of the argument and leave it at that. I would like to think that if it was Celtic they would do the same.
But whether they did or not still takes us back to issue involving Press Freedom and that’s why I have concerns about any banning of the media without solid grounds.
Personally I don’t think I have seen a bigger gaffe than this one coming from the Ashley Camp. It seems to be one blunder after another and not what I expected from such a highly vaunted businessman or his lieutenants.
Indeed an old phrase comes to mind which may well sum up the situation for the Ashley deputy responsible: ‘An able Lieutenant who will never make Captain’.
The PR management has been atrocious and I actually wonder whether any actual PR is in place. To ban a newspaper is a total gift to that paper and what’s important about the Record rupping the p*sh out of the Rangers Board is the contrast with the BBC which meekly sat and accepted the ban and actually still paid monery to Rangers.
Perhaps if the Beeb had told them or the SPFL where to get off and that the TV contract was broken and no money would be paid then Ibrox might never have rolled a tank into the Record carpark.
It may well turn into Fray Bentos the WWI tank which I mentioned recently trapped in No Mans Land as the fighting surged backwards and forwards and over it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/10358335/WW1-The-siege-of-Fray-Bentos-at-the-Battle-of-Passchendaele.html
PS: And as a fan of Celtic I remember when the DR employed Catholics and certain other Scottish newspapers didn’t.
Highlander says:
February 14, 2015 at 11:26 pm
Anyway, back on topic, which I believe is working out the odds of our domestic pets being immortal. 😉
——————————————————-
My dearly departed cat is immortal as long as I and my family live and remember her and I’m sitting looking at her ashes right now, sitting on the mantlepiece, as I type.
I’ve been held-up by the snow and general poor weather but will over the next couple of weeks inter her in her forest at the spot where every day she sat on an old tree stump for hours on end waiting to pounce on a tasty snack.
I’ve been cutting out a little stone chamber to hold the ashes and will put in some pics and the story of her life and how she came to Scotland.
I’ve already done the lid with her name and dates.
Some people scatter ashes but my worry about that is should the Great Day of Judgement actually happen how would she get herself back together in one piece?
My ashes will be scattered because I don’t have any religious beliefs but I don’t think it’s right that I should conclude my cat didn’t have beliefs which she was entitled to IMO and I suspect she might have been Russian Orthodox.
After reading several posts here today I became slightly upset, so I went and had a very long, serious conversation with my cat. I am reassured now as she has promised me that she will never, ever die. Then she had a wee piece of my steak, stared at me for a few minutes and then groomed herself for four hours.
RyanGosling says:
February 15, 2015 at 12:01 am
After reading several posts here today I became slightly upset, so I went and had a very long, serious conversation with my cat. I am reassured now as she has promised me that she will never, ever die. Then she had a wee piece of my steak, stared at me for a few minutes and then groomed herself for four hours.
———————————————————
I wish I had never made that post to you earlier 🙁
Oh NO I don’t 😆
To paraphrase a previously excellent comedy show…
“One of our cats was immortal, he’s deid noo of course…”
Kinda applies to a lot of things.
Scottish Football needs a strong Arbroath.
PS Not wishing to start an Old Cat/New Cat debate…..perhaps a paws in this discussion might be a good thing. 🙂
Redlichtie I hope you’re not calling my cat a liar.
Scottish football needs a strong RyanGosling’s cat.
RyanGosling says:
February 15, 2015 at 12:11 am
Redlichtie I hope you’re not calling my cat a liar.
==============================================
If the collar fits…
Scottish Football wonders if DK can really win by a whisker or whether it will be another tail entirely…
Purrfect comeback.
This is from the official The rangers site … Words fail me
MAKE your love last forever this Valentine’s day with a Rangers stadium brick, for only £50 you can have a brick engraved with your own personalised inscription and placed at the stadium for generations to come.
Bricks can be purchased using the following options – Online from http://www.rangerslotto.co.uk; by calling the stadium bricks hotline on 0141 427 4914; by texting ‘Rangers’ to 67766 (texts cost standard network rate) or in person from our office in Broomloan House, Ibrox Stadium.
Upon placing your order you will be given the opportunity to choose whether you would like a wall brick to be placed on the Fernando Ricksen panel or a paving brick to be placed on the Jorg Albertz walk of fame panel both of which are situated in the Sandy Jardine stand. After your selection you will be asked what special message you would like to personalise your brick with, A maximum of 2 lines of 15 characters is allowed with any spaces or punctuation marks being counted as 1 character each. You will receive an official certificate confirming your inscription within 5 working days and bricks will be placed within an 8 – 10 week timescale (weather dependant).
All profits from our stadium bricks will be donated to the Rangers Youth Development programme.
Please Note: Buying a Stadium Brick does not transfer ownership of that brick to the purchaser. At all times, Stadium Bricks remain the property of The Rangers Football Club.
Scottish Football does not want to see Catenaccio making an appearance in the weeks ahead….
Jeez,
Endless discussions of immortal cats and football clubs along with posts from numerous people who don’t understand the meaning of “trebling” your money on a bet – what has TSFM become?
With regard to the DR being banished from Ibrox, what difference does it make? If they want to cover a match, as shown, they can simply get someone to buy a ticket, and they call the story in from the stadium by mobile phone or tablet. They don’t get access to the management and players, but how often does that source illuminate any story? And we have also seen examples of a news outlet or blogger publishing a story, only to see it taken as being fair game for copying as unattributable ‘public domain’ information. Papers can find story sources easily enough by fair means or foul when they want to.
I wouldn’t man the barricades to defend the free speech of these nitwits who just use that right to prattle on about whatever suits their current agendas and patronise the rest of us. Particularly when their ability to speak freely isn’t really being hampered at all.
melbournedee says:
February 15, 2015 at 4:30 am
Explain ‘trebling’ 😀
Highlander says:
February 14, 2015 at 6:05 pm
ecobhoy says:
February 14, 2015 at 5:23 pm
“I have always argued that a club can never die as long as there are fans who support it. Simply because, they carry the history in their hearts and minds.”
I’m sorry but this is the kind of puerile nonsense that allows the deluded to argue black is white. My 13 year old golden retriever was knocked down and killed by a car many years ago. Her history is still very much in my and my family’s hearts and minds. She is however, unquestionably dead, and would remain so even if I were to prop her up wearing a “Born in 1872″ t-shirt.
152 2 Rate This
———————-
Well I’m going to buck the trend here and come down ,with one caveat, on ecobhoy’s side, and as I speak not just as a football fan but as the owner of a (2 year old) golden retriever. As a wee aside If there’s a better natured breed of dog out there then I’m still to come across it.
‘Hearts and minds’ was an interesting choice of words from ecobhoy, accidental or otherwise, but for me gets to the crux of the issue. It is hard to be certain as my club has never been liquidated and a ‘new version’ formed, but I suspect my heart would see it as the same club even though my mind told me otherwise. I suppose all I’m really repeating is the distinction between the emotional and legal definitions. With all respect to Highlander I personally thought ‘puerile nonsense’ was a tad harsh and unjustified.
This is pure mad, puma-d!
The blog has been led a stray.
oc/nc debate there is a linx between the two entities.
regards the Lion King, a leopard can’t change it spots.
I have a feline the cat gags have run there course.
melbournedee says:
February 15, 2015 at 4:30 am
Jeez,
Endless discussions of immortal cats and football clubs along with posts from numerous people who don’t understand the meaning of “trebling” your money on a bet – what has TSFM become?
———
Odds on someone will be along in a minute to describe TSFM as something of a basket case.
Following on from my 8:34 am post, the problem we have is that the Sevco fans (or at least the Sevco fans who have expressed an opinion) without exception demand the legal (hearts AND mines) same club recognition, and I have little doubt that this is largely driven by their ‘most successful club in the world’ claim. Now any sane person would recognise that Real Madrid, to take one example, are far more successful than Rangers. And I don’t think you will find any Celtic supporters that would swap Lisbon 1967 for ten (many tainted) domestic titles plus Barcelona 1972. It actually reminds me of claims that Brian Laudrup was the best player in Europe to which some wag retorted that he wasn’t even the best player in his own house as his brother Michael was superior!
Tartanwulver says:
February 15, 2015 at 7:55 am
I wouldn’t man the barricades to defend the free speech of these nitwits who just use that right to prattle on about whatever suits their current agendas and patronise the rest of us.
============
Speaking for myself I would man the barricades to defend free speech regardless of whether I ended up defending nitwits or not.
I come on here this morning and find myself having to talk about my dead cat. Much loved by the family she had to be put down last year on the advice of the vet. We treasured her dearly and have many fond memories, as well as pictures of her. Sadly though she is dead, and she will never return. We may be able to get another one that looks very much like her, but it could never be the same.
I don’t really see why football clubs can’t be the same as cats at the end of the day!
On cats and analogies.
I avoided getting entangled in last night’s little OC/NC outbreak and I won’t now but I’d just like to make a couple of wee observations.
1) What is it with OC/NC that causes the use of endless analogies involving Fido/Trixie/Joey (deceased)? – every time it happens visiting the blog is like taking a wander through a pet cemetery – please find some new analogies.
2) Or better still avoid analogies – they can be used to illustrate an argument but are not arguments in themselves.
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 8:56 am
Tartanwulver says:
February 15, 2015 at 7:55 am
I wouldn’t man the barricades to defend the free speech of these nitwits who just use that right to prattle on about whatever suits their current agendas and patronise the rest of us.
============
Speaking for myself I would man the barricades to defend free speech regardless of whether I ended up defending nitwits or not.
—————————————-
Here Here parttimearab: We must never forget the words attributed to Pastor Martin Niemölle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_…
Obviously there are lines which have to be drawn in a Democracy and the free speech of the majority must sometimes be protected against the efforts of usually small undemocratic groups using unlawful methods and violent means to remove freedom of speech from the majority.
enough is enough 12:24 am
That’s surreal.
Even funnier than the brick remaining the property of TRFC is the 15 character limit for the message, INCLUDING spaces and punctuation!
I wonder how many ‘We are the peop’ messages there will be.
Following on from my 8:55 post, apologies to Dons fans for my implication that the debate about Scotland’s most successful club excluded Aberdeen who have, of course, won twice as many European trophies as any other Scottish club.
“Please Note: Buying a Stadium Brick does not transfer ownership of that brick to the purchaser. At all times, Stadium Bricks remain the property of The Rangers Football Club.”
Hahaha how funny would that be? “Av come fur ma brick”. Question is if liquidation comes aknocking again, could someone buy the bricks from TRfc if the stadium is “owned” by Ashley? Would leave a few gaps one would think. May St James Park could loan them a few unneeded bricks as a stopgap?
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 8:56 am
Speaking for myself I would man the barricades to defend free speech regardless of whether I ended up defending nitwits or not.
————————–
ecobhoy says:
February 15, 2015 at 9:12 am
————————–
Nitwits should of course be allowed to express themselves freely, and it is always good to be reminded of Niemöller’s words, which should always stand as the benchmark by which real attempts to curb free speech should be judged.
My point was that the Daily Record’s speech is NOT being curbed by the ban from Ibrox, therefore there is nothing here that is worth defending in those terms. The DR’s ability to do their job is unaffected. The banning is portrayed by the Ibrox board as some kind of relevant action against their critics in the press, and by DR in positioning themselves as martyrs.
I don’t accept that either of those are the case. For both sides it is professional PR, nothing to do with the concept of free speech.
After the stewarding/security failings at the recent Rangers/Hearts match this, sadly, will come as no surpise…
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-face-spfl-investigation-after-5166394?
Aah but Bryce you aren’t recognising the new medium of twitter
#wearethepeople
15 simples
I have never really been that interested in the nitty gritty and mechanics of the OCNC debate per se. I do think it raises interesting points however and some very amusing ones such as the dead pet syndrome.
Indeed I’m beginning to wonder whether I should conduct a detailed study into a seemingly higher than average mortality rate suffered by pets of football supporters.
Much as I have loved all of my pets including the ones growing older with me I have never really likened them in any way to my football club. One old chap costs me almost the same amount per month for his medication as the cost of my annual ST at Parkhead.
It’s all that keeps him alive and with a good quality of life and if it wasn’t for the latter he would regretfully have been euthanased. He would be dead but would live in my memories and those of my family and others.
I personally have always held the ‘hearts and minds’ continuing club idea since I first came to the site and held it previously on Paul’s site. However my ‘hearts and minds’ belief is a personal one and should not be conflated with the ‘resucitation’ of a club which died through liquidation.
Indeed I posted a few days ago that if Rangers make it back to the Premiership I will go to games after a 10 year break of not watching them. Part of my reasoning for going back was because I know without a doubt that legally it isn’t the same club.
I was actually chatting with some Celtic mates after watching the game yesterday who were surprised because they are aware of all of my reasons for not attending and a few said: ‘But it’s the same supporters’.
Indeed it probably is although with the seeming large churn in Ibrox ST holders I’m not sure how accurate that is although I would happily concede they probably have the same motivation.
But to me the fact that it’s the same support that believe it’s the same club has absolutely no effect on my thinking. I also pointed out that every single one of them (Celtic Mates) had gone to Hasmpden and I hadn’t. Indeed that’s what caused me to sit and re-assess my decision and change my mind.
No man is an island and times change and I have changed my mind. Perhaps in time Bears too might change their minds or accept that they are their own worst enemy by clinging to remnants of a past that’s gone.
I have however no difficulty with Bears who believe it’s the same club – they can believe what they like although personally I do see it as a r
‘roadblock’ to moving forwards for them. But it isn’t my problem – but it is a problem for Scottish Football which can only be removed by a change in the rule books and a clear and transparent policy.
The problem here goes back to the archaic rule books and definitions used by the Scottish Football Authorities which even have different definition for the meaning of ‘club’.
Obviously a lot of Bears seize on these kind of discrepancies as some kind of ‘proof’ that their club exists and there are plenty of other reasons which have been preveiously been recited ad nauseum.
It may well be that if Celtic had ended-up in the same situation that a large section of the support would act similarly to the Bears and I probably would as well to deny the Bears an admission of death and the gloating rights that goes with that.
How does the cats have 9 lives issue apply here?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/rangers-chief-executive-derek-llambias-5166078
Llambias feeling the wrath of locals
Tartanwulver says:
February 15, 2015 at 9:35 am
My point was that the Daily Record’s speech is NOT being curbed by the ban from Ibrox.
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But the ban is an attempt to get the Record to toe the line….and Rangers already have previous with the BBC…as MA has with both the Telegraph and IIRC the local paper in Newcastle ( the Chronicle ❓ ).
Other news organizations will be able to read the message loud and clear….print something that we don’t like and your banned.
In fairness to Rangers they’re not the only club to have done this and I lay some of the blame with the SPFL for not having a clear and enforceable media access policy.
Journalists themselves need to stand up and face down what is effectively bullying by acting collectively (something IMO they failed to do in the case of Jim Spence).
One reason for the failings of the SMSM (obviously not the only one ) is journalistic and editorial fear of offending clubs – actions such as those of Rangers in this instance will only exacerbate this.
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 9:39 am
After the stewarding/security failings at the recent Rangers/Hearts match this, sadly, will come as no surpise…
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-face-spfl-investigation-after-5166394?
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It does raise the whole issue of the alleged kidnap threats against the directors and their absence from the stadium. It could be there is a problem with the in-house security which made the directors decide not to put their faith in their own stewards and boycott the last Ibrox game.
It used to be G4S but of course a new in-house security company was formed and I have often wondered whether any onerous contracts apply to the operation.
Recent events certainly seem to raise issues about the fitness of the operation to carry out their duties effectively.
I was amazed at the lack of separation on the right side of the Hibs support from the Bears and how few stewards were lining the gap initially.
Especially when there was a major gap on the LHS of the Hib Support. It seemed as if the support could have been moved to the left achieving a reasonable gap at both sides without affecting Bear ST holders.
Obviously there might be some kind of access issues that would impinge on my observation. But before the goal waa scored I had already spotted a potential flash-point between the supports.
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 10:06 am
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I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I will counter with the view the media, especially newspapers, should act more responsibly in how they report. The Daily Record are forcibly stating a case for a convicted tax evader to gain control at Ibrox. The message seems clear to me, and that message is a traditional Rangers man is above being a criminal no matter his proven guilt. That is not a good message to give out, and also points to them very much toeing the line if King does gain control.
bfbpuzzled says:
February 15, 2015 at 9:58 am
How does the cats have 9 lives issue apply here?
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By the time there’s another 8 liquidations I’m sure the SFA & SPFL will have a 9-way agreement.
If football clubs are like cats then surely Rangers are “one down with eight to go” 😀
upthehoops says:
February 15, 2015 at 10:13 am
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 10:06 am
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I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I will counter with the view the media, especially newspapers, should act more responsibly in how they report.
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Agree 100% with the above UTH, rights come with responsibilities.
upthehoops says:
February 15, 2015 at 10:13 am
parttimearab says:
February 15, 2015 at 10:06 am
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I don’t disagree with much of what you say but I will counter with the view the media, especially newspapers, should act more responsibly in how they report. The Daily Record are forcibly stating a case for a convicted tax evader to gain control at Ibrox. The message seems clear to me, and that message is a traditional Rangers man is above being a criminal no matter his proven guilt. That is not a good message to give out, and also points to them very much toeing the line if King does gain control.
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I accept the DR has obviously taken an editorial decision to support DK. They are actually entitled to do so for a number of reasons not least being they see it as advantageous in circulation terms.
People who object have, of course, the option of not buying the paper.
However there is no dispute over the fact that DK is a convicted criminal. What is still to be decided is whether those convictions render him unfit to be a director of a UK Plc.
I have always tended to think and have previously detailed my reasons that he quite probably will be found to be ‘fit and proper’ in terms of AIM mainly on the grounds that he is regarded as such by the Jo’burg Stock Exchange.
That was the Exchange where his previous company ‘tanked’ after he had left with a tidy profit and many pension funds were hammered by the collapsing share price.
His new company is on the same Stock Exchange and there was quite a lengthy investigation into it by the exchange which found no problems and I posted wrt this on here las autumn. It’s also worth remembering that Jo’burg is, of course, in South Africa where he was convicted over criminal tax charges.
I really wonder with that background whether AIM will act as the travails of Rangers are a mere fleabite compared to many of the serious things happening on that exchange. And that is the problem IMO: We see Rangers as a Big Deal but in a wider context it doesn’t actually count for anything.
As to his ‘fit & proper’ status wrt the SFA and SPFL then they will do whatever suits them and Rangers best in their opinion. And we must always remember that every one of our clubs will probably sit back and do nothing to rock the boat.
Personally I don’t think for a second that DK should pass the fit & proper test. But I have no doubt that if he wins the egm then it will be arranged.
Perhaps the DR has simply come to the same conclusion. It isn’t right but when did that ever make much of a difference?
In any case DK is leading the charge and deflecting attention from the negotiaitions which I have no doubt are taking place between T3B and MA on a business level.
I have said this many times and for me the key issue still is – as it has been since Day 1 – what are the mystery overseas investors going to do, what more do they want and how much will it take to get rid of them?
Before away fans where moved to the corner section they where penned into the section to the right of the away goal and directly below the upper stand section,after continued complaints about spitting and coin throwing from the upper section the away fans where moved to a “safer section”,I am sure there will be a few out there that will remember this.