by Stuart Cosgrove for the Scottish Football Monitor
In the early years of the new millennium, ‘The Battle of the Saints’ was a First Division encounter. Both St Mirren and St Johnstone had been relegated and were among the favourites to return to the spiritually suffocating SPL. Winning the First Division title was a mixed blessing. It provided a football moment that old firm fans could only dream of – an open-top bus round. But victory meant you were back in the SPL, a league that had been shaped for the benefit of the two big clubs.
Television revenues were skewed, there were no play-offs, only one team could be relegated and the voting structures would bring shame to a tin-pot dictatorship. It was a league you could never realistically win and so never fully enjoy. I remember being in the ‘Wee Barrel’ a traditional football boozer near St Mirren’s old Love Street stadium. It was soon after the St Johnstone drug scandal. On 5th January 2001, George O’Boyle and his teammate Kevin Thomas had been sacked following allegations that they had used illegal recreational drugs. They had allegedly been caught taking an “unidentified white powder” at the club’s injured players Christmas Party at That Bar in Perth. The drugs scandal undermined St Johnstone’s much peddled identity as a local family club. A bitter industrial dispute unfolded and widespread dressing-room unrest. The team’s form catastrophically dipped. Inevitably, St Mirren fans were delighted to play host to such a “scandalised” and “drug-addled” club. Football fans relish the misfortune of others with almost satanic glee. So the Buddies cheered sarcastically when any Perth fans went into the Wee Barrel’s less than salubrious pub toilet. They made pantomime sniffing noises interjected with animal impersonations and at times it sounded like a famer’s convention had turned into a massive cocaine bender. I vividly remember that one St Johnstone fan became so enraged that he blurted out the unforgettable phrase ‘Aye but what about Barry Lavety?’ Further back in 1995 the St Mirren striker Lavety had been arrested for using the then ‘designer drug’ ecstasy making him the first footballer of the acid-house generation. In this short, pithy response outside a toilet door in the Wee Barrel, all the gut instincts of football spectatorship came to the surface and all the components of what was later to become known as ‘whataboutery’ were laid bare.
Whataboutery pre-dates the internet but it has been kindled by it. The web has transformed the way we talk and think about football. Suddenly and profoundly new forums for discussing the game quickly followed. Facebook was launched two years later in 2004, Twitter joined the social media firmament in 2006 and by 2012 and Scottish football’s summer of discontent the micro-blogging platform had 500 million active users. The rise of social media invoked an ‘epistemological break’ with previous eras of spectatorship and with other forms of media and communication. For the first time ever, fans had a way of instantly communicating, of answering back and disagreeing with each other in real-time. Whataboutery is a dismal art that can be defined by three often sub-conscious characteristics – a refusal to engage with the question at hand; an attempt to deflect the discussion on to others and a failure to engage with the morality of the subject.
Go on any web forum today and you will find many debates are pock-marked with whataboutery. The financial meltdown of Rangers is the most recent and most virulent example. What about Hearts they owe the taxman? What about Dundee they’ve gone bust twice? What about Leeds, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth? Sadly, the misdemeanours of others is an unstable platform on which to mount a moral defence and celebrating victory in a tax tribunal about complex offshore loan-trusts does not magically airbrush away tax-debt involving VAT and PAYE. Nor does whatboutery explain why already rich footballers should enjoy the moral right to hide behind complex off shore tax schemes, irrespective of their legality. Every football fan at some time in their life has felt a deep primal urge to defend their club. We are emotionally instinctive creatures and quick to play the martyr. But however passionate you are about football – and I would count myself as ‘combustible’ – being loyal to your club does not permit disloyalty or contempt for the institutions of a fair society.
Not surprisingly, the origins of the term whatboutery can be traced back to the sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland. Last year I met the journalist and blogger, Mick Fealty who is one of the driving forces behind the blog forum Slugger O’Toole, a site that has bravely tried to provide a platform for localism and for non-sectarian political discourse in Northern Ireland. It is often cited as the place where the term whataboutery was invented. Taking its lead from Slugger, the online dictionary wikitionary defines whataboutery as “responding to criticism by accusing one’s opponent of similar or worse faults.” Recently, at the height of rioting in Belfast in the aftermath of Belfast city council’s policy shift on flying the union flag, a major local newspaper the Belfast Telegraph said in a trenchant editorial – “For everyone who cares about democracy; who wants an end to sectarian posing and mind games; an end to mindless thuggery; an end to immature reactions to complicated issues; an end to whataboutery ….” An end to sectarian posing and mind games – how refreshing would that be? The recent case of Anthony Stokes is a case in point. Most fans would concede that Stokes is a fool to have associated himself with the Real IRA and criminal elements within the Dublin republican scene. But some fans – believing they were supporting their club and its Irish origins – are hard-wired to romanticism and a re-hashed history. Nothing that Stokes has done is either romantic or historic – it is grubby and pathetic. Nor is deflection acceptable either. Yes of course Andy Goram has associated with some fairly disagreeable characters but that does not absolve Stokes of responsibility. Celtic manager Neil Lennon has been unambiguous about that. Stokes is on a final warning and rightly so. Whataboutery is the glue of entrenched opinion. It cultivates extremes rather than subtleties, and favours glib comment over deeper dialogue. That is why TSFM should always be vigilant about the forum slipping into whatabouterty.
It seems almost banal to say it, but you can be a supporter without being a supplicant. You can be Rangers daft without endorsing morally bereft tax loopholes, you can want Neil Lennon to enjoy a life free from intimidation without defending complicated film investment schemes; you can relish a goal by Garry O’ Connor without admiring his self-defeating lifestyle, you can be a big Jambo but still expect staff to be paid on time, you can be a Red Ultra without having to urinate on videos of Gazza and you can soak up the atmosphere in the Dundee Derry, without cushioning its sectarian associations. And, yes I do know that there was once a dairy behind the goal at the Derry End – but when fights erupted in the 1970s, it wasn’t lactic pasteurisation they were fighting about.
Football fans can be emotionally passionate yet hold on to moral values. We can be vocal without being vacuous. We can be diehard fans without being robotic ideologues for our club. Many of us have found ourselves tied in knots trying to defend our clubs and in some cases defend the indefensible. The roll-call of whatboutery in Scottish football would shame a mature society. There’s defective flat-screen televisions in Manchester; hearses at Celtic Park; programme notes at Montrose; unidentified white powder; porn peddlers in the 1980s, Joanna Lumley’s love-life, urinal-videos in Aberdeen; Leigh Griffith’s unique contribution to fatherhood; Hugh Dallas’s emails; Maurice Edu’s car and Lee Wallace’s air-rifle. They are surreal and seemingly endless.
As new technologies surround us daily, whataboutery has gone digital and online disputes are now frequently backed up by a stream of phone-footage, rogue tweets, photo-shopped imagery and spectacularly desperate analogies. We live in the white-heat of social media where whataboutery goes on ad nauseum and in perpetuity. It is the dismal art of the web and a habit we have to overcome if Scottish football is ever to find a settled democracy. The financial collapse of Rangers has brought us to a cross roads. Unless there is some kind of rapprochement and an ‘appliance of compliance’, then whataboutery will last for many more decades to come. Whataboutery is a defence mechanism which allows fans and the clubs they support to avoid moral responsibility. But it need not be like that. In February 2007, Scottish football was given a simple lesson in how the game could be run if we could look forward. It was a cold and wet night at Fir Park during a midweek Scottish cup tie. St Johnstone’s Jason Scotland was unexpectedly targeted by a small band of racist Motherwell fans. By most reasonable accounts of the events, a gang of right-wing casuals taunted the player with monkey chants. Season tickets were not valid and many fans were not in their regular seats. But within a few minutes, groups of decent Motherwell fans turned on the racists, shouted them down and alerted the police.
Online there was a brief and half-hearted flurry of whataboutery. Some denied it had happened, others said that Jason Scotland was “playing the race card” and a small vocal minority argued it was Airdrie fans. This is an unfamiliar twist on an age old deflection. Blaming phantom support from elsewhere is quite common in Scottish football, although it is usually the demonology of Chelsea, Millwall or England fans that are cast as the mysterious villains.
Whatever the motives of those that posted their defence of Motherwell, the whataboutery was short-lived and brought to a shuddering halt by a simple, prompt and unambiguous apology. In an official club statement, Chairman John Boyle said: “These people should never show their faces at Fir Park again and they have no place in football,” adding “We are utterly appalled by this behaviour by a small group of people who have tarnished the name of our club. We are writing to Jason Scotland and St Johnstone today to apologise for this disgusting behaviour which is totally alien to all of us.”
Motherwell had scripted a blue-print for change. Rather than deflect attention elsewhere or dispute the minutiae of events, clubs, fans and officials have to become “better at being wrong.” When there is a clear injustice, evidence of wrong-doing or powerful proof that mistakes have been made, then it is no longer acceptable to hide from the moral consequences. Apologise and pay the price. That applies equally to all of us and there is no hierarchy of importance. No special cases. The SPL may have a history of gifting privileges but common decency does not.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. This is the second of a trilogy of blogs he has agreed to write for TSFM. The first was about the era of Armageddon. He writes here in a personal capacity.
Johnbhoy75 (@Johnbhoy75) says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:43
“However, regardless of what the price does, the £27m or so is added to the season ticket monies and will make the new Rangers secure for the forseeable future”
Whether your statement is right or wrong I can forsee plenty TD’s. This is what I don’t understand, if my mate bought say a good second hand car for £10k and I knew that and he did nothing to it, why would I want to give him £20k 6 months later for it ? I’d be like “I don’t think so pal”
HirsutePursuit says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:12
‘As this embarrassing web page demonstrates:
http://www.scottishfootballleague.com/club/rangers/-.
—-
Nice one, HP.
Would it be unworthy of me to suggest that we can try to adopt Clodius-style tactics? Perhaps a little bit of gentlemanly market intimidation?
A flurry of emails, perhaps, to the listed sponsors of the SFL ( Barrs Irn Bru, Taggarts motors, Sky…..) suggesting that they are sponsoring ‘inaccuracies’,which would perhaps indicate that they are not too fussy about the truth of things, and that perhaps what they have to sell us is maybe produced with the same cavalier attitude to truth…..
( In fairness, I should declare an ancient grudge. In 1963 I went for a job at Barrs ,at Parkhead Cross where its offices then were.
I was kept waiting for an hour, and then treated most insultingly by an arrogant sod whose name was – and if he’s not now long dead he’ll be the oldest man on the planet!- McLaren.
I am not by nature a violent man.
But it was all I could do keep my temper under control, and confine myself to polite expressions of contempt and disdain.
So, I’ve a wee historic thing against….. .. Wait a minute, did I not recently read that Barrs is now dead,or soon to die, and become Britvic….?
Or will Britvic really be the old Barrs? And I can carry my grudge forward…..
Like many other posters, I’m somewhat bemused at how much cash money actually adheres to RIFC, never mind TRFC (forever SevcoFC to me) after this share issue.
Many of the amounts quoted by oldandgrumpy had ‘@x%’ attached. Does this imply an APR or an expected return? If so, how the h*ll will Sevco service that? Is this not the equivalent of a service charge, in reality a debt? If part of their revenues go to servicing this, will it not make their sums impossible to add up in revenue terms?
For dummies like me: if their income does not equal their outgoings, where are they going to borrowing the shortfall? If it’s aloan, how do they service it?
Is this all smoke-and-mirrors?
bayviewgold
The SFL have already declared their view simply by acknowledging the honours won by the liquidated Rangers on the official website. This is wrong in my opinion.
For me, personally, Rangers are here to stay but they are new and for the moment, headed up by a court jester.
I hope that a new “Rangers” regime (with genuine Rangers minded, football people) takes control and reverses the juggernaut back up the hill and takes a different direction and simply accept that they are where they are and get on with re-integrating in to the Scottish Football Community.
Green’s £1,473,900( £50k really), 8.67% equates to £17m( Under £10m more like) at 100%. So that’s the so called institutional investors…….
So……what share issue did the public buy into? That’s 100% of the shares sold,I don’t get it.
What exactly were they offering to the Secvo Loyal for £10m?
Or will the institutional investors shares be diluted and what actually happens to the shares that haven’t been sold?
Easyjambo…love the spreadsheet with the number of shares and value of individual holdings.
Could you re-do it showing the value of those shares that were in rfc before the ipo as £0 as that money was put in by the original consortium and is not cash raised via the ipo.
For example…cg didn’t pay 70p for his 5M shares. Same for ashley , blue pitch, Iran etc.
Tommy says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 14:17
“After having McCoist urging bears to get buying as the main item on its sports slot last evening, STV was strangely silent about the Sevco share issue in its lunchtime news today.”
If he was urging fans to buy shares, he has contradicted himself today. He is quoted as saying as an employee of the comapny he is not allowed to advise anyone about the share issue.
He must have picked it up from Charles Green.
Good Evening,
Alexander–otherwise Sandy– Faris was born in the distinctly Scottish sounding village of Caledon on June 11th 1921. This particular village is to be found in County Tyrone some 7 miles from Armagh, close to the border with County Monaghan, and according to the 2001 census the village boasted a bustling population of some 387 souls.
The name Caledon appears to be a shortened version of Caledonia, the old Latin name for Scotland. Originating from the Pictish tribe of northern Scotland, the Caledonii, the term means “great, hard/tough people”. In present-day Scotland the Gaelic version of Caledonia, An Chaillean, is an alternate name for Dunkeld (Dún Chaillean) and Schiehallion (Sídh Chaillean)
Now many of you will never have heard of Sandy Faris, but many of a certain age will be familiar with his work. Faris left his little village, went to Oxford and then studied at the Royal College of Music in London. When the Beatles were in Hamburg creating their groundbreaking sounds in the early 60’s so was Faris– except he was with the German Radio Symphony Orchestra conducting them through some of the works of Gilbert and Sullivan! He would gain further success conducting and arranging the tunes of Messrs Gilbert and Sullivan with the Sadlers Wells Opera Company, The D’Oyly Carte, and the Scottish Chamber Opera
He also worked as the musical director for the Carl Rosa Opera Company in the 1950s and later at the Royal Ballet.
In film he wrote the scores for The Quare Fellow (1962), He Who Rides a Tiger (1965), Rowlandson’s England, and Georgy Girl (1966).
All very good I hear you say, but what has this to do with Football, Stuart Cosgrove or whataboutery?
Well—- whilst Sandy Faris achieved all of the above he perhaps achieved his greatest success in television when he wrote the theme tune to Upstairs Downstairs– The drama that featured the self deprecating Gordon Jackson as Hudson the butler and Jean Marsh as the ever faithful Rose.
However, Faris also wrote another song which was used to repeatedly bring that show to a close. This was a bawdy music hall number which was performed with great gusto by a buxom Pauline Collins playing the part of one Sarah Moffat– who was allegedly the granddaughter of Alexander Dumas. In the show, Sarah had a chequered history of destitution and so on but eventually took to the stage where her most famous number was the saucy creation of our man Sandy. The title of that song was?
What are we going to do with uncle Arthur!
This was a masterpiece of whataboutery– as no matter what the verses were actually about the lyrics always ended with the deflecting line but “What are we going to do about uncle Arthur?”.
When it comes to whataboutery it is entirely appropriate that there is reference to a bawdy vaudeville act which has the masses rolling in the aisles at the ridiculous and comedic comments of the performer.
Whataboutery in Scottish Football terms has become a cheap vaudeville act performed at almost every turn by pundits, journalists, commentators, fans and even managers. It is a tasteless, useless, and spineless practice, and today it is evident at every turn.
Kenny Shiels is for the high jump because he has said that an official fabricated evidence or charges against him!
Naughty Naughty Kenny!!!
Mind you it appears that when Kenny appeared before the disciplinary tribunal on the original charges, them that judged appeared less than impressed by what said official had to say– and it appears that Killie’s Kenny had video evidence which — ahem— cast doubt on what the official suggested.
However, given those circumstances the burning question at Hampden seems to be….. “But what are we going to do with uncle Arthur?”.
Now this is not the first time that officials have had their actions called into question.
Derek Adams had a whole host of complaints follow him from Ross County to Hibs — many of which were won on appeal and which did not reflect well on the officials concerned. Famously the allegations included the use of foul and abusive language– including swearing. Given that Adams never swears— I know it is a peculiar trait but apparently true—- the charges were thrown out for lack of evidence—- and one wonders how this went down with the blazers in charge of the refs?
Then there was the referee who described his reasons for sending off Falkirk Manager Steven Presley. At Tribunal he openly stated that he would not send off any other manager for the same conduct— just Presley!!!
I won’t bother with Dougie Dougie and his “untruth” or Shug Dallas and his supposed offer to Stuart Regan to have the referees strike called off if he developed amnesia regarding the his e-mail account.
Naughty Naughty referees.
Yet let’s not even consider that there might be something seriously wrong in such situations, instead I am deeply deeply concerned about “Just what are we going to do with Uncle Arthur”.
Now don’t get me wrong— I am not saying refs and linesmen are nasty lying toe rags to a man, but what I am saying is that when you get a situation where a version of events- as reported by an official– just does not stack up then surely you have to look into it and if necessary do something about it?
Our sports pages are constantly full of stuff that actually has nothing to do with playing football.
What kid dreams of growing up to take a football club on to the stock market, or appearing before a disciplinary tribunal, or spending hours with the “legal team” preparing for this appeal or that?
Football fans and journalists appear to do every damn thing on line except talk about football at times, and non footballing events appear more exciting and interesting than the game itself.
So can I recommend a panacea to this ailment by way of a book?
Now, before going any further I must declare a wee conflict of interest– because the book concerned is Richard Gordon’s Glory in Gothenburg.
I know Richard, have played football with him and his boys, eaten at his table, shared a drink or two and laughed with him heartily at my own idiocy with a football. I would go so far as to say that Richard is a friend– although I don’t see him that often.
So having got that out of the way, Let me tell you why I like his book!
Remarkably it is about Football– it is about everything about football.
This is Richard-the Aberdeen fan’s story– about him and his emotion as he watches his team triumph in Europe.
It is about that team, his fellow fans, the players, the games you remember, the goals that were scored, the feelings you felt and the laughter shared and the tears that were shed.
It is about the people who made up that team– note the term people as opposed to players. How those boys became footballers and men, how they triumphed, how some later struggled both in and out of the game- how they got on with the manager or didn’t at times– how they got on with each other– how they became– a team– and how the played against some of the best players in the world and won.
I am a Celtic fan and have no great connection to Aberdeen FC or indeed Aberdeen itself but I remember Aberdeen winning in Gothenburg and how I thought it was great. Don’t get me wrong I wanted them to lose any old time against my team but that is only natural.
Of all the chapters in the book I was most touched by words spoken by Gordon Strachan. My first view of Wee Gordon was in an Aberdeen Jersey where I quickly reached the conclusion that he was a wee torn faced nyaff of questionable origins and undoubted illegitimacy– yep he was that good— Bugger!
Unlike others Strachan doesn’t recall games or medals or triumphs in his footballing career, instead he recalls people and the relationships that he has forged with people through a life in football. He talks about how lucky he has been, what football has given him as a person ( that he would not otherwise have had ) and how football— shaped him as a human being!
Apparently footballers are not known for their intelligence, intellect, academic results and general cleverness. Yet what comes across in the mini biographies that are contained in this book is the basic core values of the guys that featured in that team and how they all played for one another, for the fans, for the community, for the coaches who brought them through the ranks, for Teddy Scott the Kit man and so on.
What you are being told is that footballers– at that time being paid a wage that some had to make to pay the rent or the mortgage— had a coda, a set of rules, a view of the world that did not feed on whataboutery and the trend of the back page. Their raison d’etre was to win, and to win you had to be as one, to bond with others from different backgrounds and areas for a common purpose.
Footballers– in the old fashioned sense—- learn to do that far better than many supposedly better educated and more intelligent types. Whatsmore while such guys want to win, they know only too well that defeat to a better team on the day is always possible —- and that is really the essence of the game isn’t it? If you are not at your very best you can lose.
Football is a social pastime, it brings together fans to support a team. It matters not whether that team are world beaters or not– it is a team of people who have come together to play a game– a sport— and Richard’s book shows the joy of winning– of having that moment in the spotlight– which can be celebrated again and again even decades later.
Importantly it also shows what having a successful– however you may want to measure success—- means to a community, a town, a city. It made me think of a town like Clydebank– pre war that town had the most efficient workforce in Industrial Europe and was on the up and up. The town supported one senior team and had a healthy history of other football with thousands going to see Duntocher Hibs, Yoker Athletic and many teams on tiers below these levels.
Today, the town and its football are lost in many respects — but hey let’s not dwell on that let’s worry about what we will do with uncle Arthur instead.
After all successive Governments abandoned Clydebank.Post war, Government concentrated on creating new towns and did very very little to quickly rebuild Clydebank, its people and their social structure after the blitz.
Years later, no one stepped forward to save a football club that once boasted some real good players in a catchment area which should have guaranteed a good support. Perhaps everyone else was far too focused on their own team, their own players or whatever to worry about the Bankies ceasing to be or morphing into Airdrie Utd.
A Football club is important– the people who make up a football club are important– the supporters of other football clubs who come to your ground to support their team are important– and they deserve a lot less whataboutery.
Football itself deserves less whataboutery
If a Ref tells pork pies and is shown to tell pork pies then show him the door.
If Businessmen come along and mess supporters and other teams about then see them for what they are not what they want to portray themselves as,
If kids want to dream about being a goalie or a centre forward then give them stories about being a goalie making saves and a centre forward scoring goals– not the ins and outs of the boardroom shenanigans, share flotations, disciplinary hearings and all that bollocks. That will surely kill all interest eventually.
Richard Gordon’s book is good for Scottish Football at this time as it deals with none of that stuff and is a real football book– worthy of fans who support any team irrespective of allegiance.
Sandy Faris shuffled off his mortal coil a few years back but the theme for Upstairs Downstairs forged a life of its own being converted into heavy metal format, bosa nova format and many others— so much so that various versions were released on an album and earned £70,000 for Children in Need.
However it also featured as the theme tune for another BBC programme this time on Radio. It was a slot on finance and the theme tune introduced an item called “Upshares, Downshares” which reported on the stock market!
It is a sad old day for football when one of the most commonly mentioned names connected with the game is Charles Green. With no offence to Mr Green, he does not play for a team and is loathe to even reveal who all his team mates are. I have no idea if he will be good for Rangers or not in the long run, all I do know is that he has repeatedly practised whataboutery on any subject in furtherance of his share flotation— saying one thing one day and seemingly something different the next.
When I hear him, I cannot help but picture him in his Camel coat with the velvet collar, possibly wearing a trilby not unlike a character from another TV drama. Surely this will not continue now that the holding company has floated? If it does then perhaps some of his new fellow shareholders will eventually ask…… on an almost Daly basis
” But what are we going to do with uncle Arthur…….?”
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:13
Easyjambo…love the spreadsheet with the number of shares and value of individual holdings.
Could you re-do it showing the value of those shares that were in rfc before the ipo as £0 as that money was put in by the original consortium and is not cash raised via the ipo.
For example…cg didn’t pay 70p for his 5M shares. Same for ashley , blue pitch, Iran etc.
…………………………………………………………………………….
NTHMS, This is one of many things that has been confusing me.
Does the amount claimed include the money already put in by the investors if so it would more or less half the cash figures being claimed.
Did guys like Smith and Sally “buy” shares at 70P or were they gifted to Smith for coming on board and Sally for bonuses or wages.
I would think including the fans money the total “new money” will be closer to10 million than the quoted 22million.
theglen2012 says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:40
I think folks on here could go and argue the point that Rangers are not Rangers on every phone in up and down the land but unfortunately it’s falling on deaf ears. It is being made out as a non issue and I can’t see that changing unless those in authority make a statement and that aint going to happen anytime soon. At times it’s like being stuck in a movie where the bad guy wins, anybody any guesses at the movies I’m thinking about!
goosygoosy on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:56
——
BBC Scotland have been saying investors have pledged 17 million, not bought 17 million worth of shares. Strange that.
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:24
My Grandfather was born in Caledon, a nice wee village it is to, different from many of the surrounding villages
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678
Whatever problems we have in Scottish football, the above link possibly puts them in perspective…
briggsbhoy says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:32
I agree. Until someone in officialdom says something there will be seen to be two sides to this argument.
Even then the “losing” side will counter it with something else.
As I said though, people will always believe what they want to believe.
But that doesn’t make it factually correct.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:34
1 0 Rate This
goosygoosy on Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 22:56
——
BBC Scotland have been saying investors have pledged 17 million, not bought 17 million worth of shares. Strange that.
………….
What is even stranger, is that it will take a few days for the MSM to drip feed the obvious difference between pledged and bought, this will be done gradually through scattered outlets, eventually it will be accepted as true, Green rants about “enemies” at a very convenient time and it is all forgotten by bulk of the MSM and TRFC supporters, the MSM then go on to tell us they are not financial experts but Green is a canny businessman so there must be a good reason for the funds only being “pledged”.
Back over old ground here, BUT, if they are the same club? when they started life in div 3 they were still in administration therefore why were they not deducted 10pts. I know sevco fans would say the club/company are separate entities so why were the club deducted 10 pts when the company first went into administration in February ??????
I know the answer to these questions, however some of the confused.com mob should realise that you have to have a good memory when you tell porkies …… Have a look at the banner from the rfc(the deid wans) against man city where we are informed by them that ‘you can’t buy history!) big LOLs
rfc(deid) v man city 2009 banner says ” YOU CAN’T BUY HISTORY” slight change of tune now eh?
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:24
Of all the chapters in the book I was most touched by words spoken by Gordon Strachan. My first view of Wee Gordon was in an Aberdeen Jersey where I quickly reached the conclusion that he was a wee torn faced nyaff of questionable origins and undoubted illegitimacy– yep he was that good— Bugger!
=======================================================================
I first saw the “wee torn faced nyaff” starring for Dundee at Celtic Park before his Aberdeen success.
I Wanted CFC to sign him but to no avail.
Billy McNeill signed him as Aberdeen manager and Alex Ferguson inherited a gift
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:51
0 0 Rate This
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20770678
Whatever problems we have in Scottish football, the above link possibly puts them in perspective
__________________________________________________________________________
Really? I don’t think so……… I think a big percentage of fans of a holding company from the South side would like a side free of a certain religion and they still have never signed a player of a certain nationality. Old or Newco. If you look at the majority of their fans websites and you’ll see that is in fact the case. There’s no difference.
i think the point everyone is missing is that most fans should be going with our emotions and seeing trfc as the same club, and looking forward to kicking them while they are down and the authorities be telling us otherwise, that it isnt the same club and should be denied entry to the professional leagues.
the reason this has happened is because the authorities decided to disregard previous precedents and their own rule book and try to give a legal,in sporting sense, view that somehow after this liquidation that this newco is in fact oldco.
in my heart i kinda believe that clydebank, gretna and the new third lanark are the same clubs, but at the same time i KNOW that they are not. i dont think many supporters will think the newco rangers are the same club simply because we havent seen the sfa or sfl support the proper view that it should hold.
if favouritism was going to be shown the authorities should have made newco start at the very bottom, juniors or east of scotland leagues but opened up promotion and relegation to those clubs with the necessary criteria (3 years accounts etc.) i would have accepted this as probably many others would have.
the problem now is that supporters of anyone except trfc, are being forced to go by what they KNOW and not what they believe in their hearts because the corruption and favouritism is everywhere and a helluva a lot worse than any of us had previously imagined.
the authorities should be the ones using their heads, and supporters should be going with their hearts, because we are being forced to use our heads, fans are losing heart and falling out of love for the game.
Another entertaining post from BRT and H.
But more than entertaining.
It brings us back to the starting point of this blog.
Football:probably the best team game ever devised, a sport, played according to agreed rules uniformly applied, man against man, teams against teams, honest endeavour, recognition that some are more talented than others, that victory achieved by cheating is no victory, that it is no shame to lose to a better performing side….
But here in Scotland ( as well as in other countries) that simple understanding has come close to being seen as naive and antiquated.
I will buy Richard Gordon’s book because it promises to catch that ideal.
On the ash pitches in Carntyne, and on Glasgow Green, I, too, was a Charlie Tully or Bobby Collins or Willie Fernie.
The sheer fun and enjoyment of playing , of knowing that you were ( occasionally, albeit) useful on the pitch. What can match that?
This very evening, Skyping my 38 year old son in the States, I saw that he was wearing his Celtic jersey ( our Christmas present to him will be the 125 ), ready to go out and play a match with other ‘soccer’ coaches in his neighbourhood.
As I say, the sheer joy and fun of football.And,I hope, Gordon’s book really captures that.
I will buy it also because the same Richard Gordon was helpful to my other son, in Seville
.
As poster ‘theglen’ freely confessed earlier, our points of view are heavily influenced by emotional ties.
And thank God for it.
Brenda says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:56
Have a look at the banner
======
I will if you provide a link.
Thanks Stuart. You have provided us with another thoughtful and stimulating piece. Having said that, I’m not sure that your essay on ‘whataboutery’ gets sufficiently to the heart of the cancerous problem threatening club football in Scotland. That problem, in my opinion, is to do with the ways in which clubs and their followers perceive and relate to other clubs and their followers. To my mind, ‘tribalism’ is a concept closer to the heart of the problem.
Sociologist use other words when they talk about how groups organise themselves and the norms or rules they adopt to govern their membership and their relationships with other groups. For me, ‘tribalism’ is a relevant concept. It has a primitive ring to it which accords well with the range of emotions and stances adopted by some groups towards others. Most, if not all, supporters have a deeply ingrained, dare I say primitive, attachment to their team. When they perceive their group to be under attack, their instinctual response is to do one of two things – fight or take flight. The tribal response would be to wade in or fall back, regroup and consider options. With either response, the group’s flag, or colours, play a critical part in identifying friends and foes. The flag/colours also plays a powerful role in rallying and motivating the tribe as current events sadly demonstrate.
The sad reality for Scottish football is that tribalism, with all its primitive characteristics, continues to exist and increasingly threatens and corrupts the sport. It has to be recognised that there is a tribal element attached to many clubs that needs to be addressed to ensure the health and survival of club football. It’s surely time that all clubs and their fans recognised that their survival and prosperity depends on cooperation and respect for every other club and their fans. The rise of TRFC with all the hate, belligerence and victim mentality it spawns is, I fear, reminiscent of the rise of National Socialism in Germany after the first world war. What is the hope for peace in our time? Appeasers beware!
iki says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 00:35
http://i50.tinypic.com/29pyd60.jpg
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:24
—————————————————————
I have a very good friend who still officiates in the Football league and EPL and we regulary talk about his games and 2 or 3 times a season I will attend them as his guest…
Over the years in our many discussions about football I have asked him about managers he encounters…the good the bad and the down right arsholes…
It may or may not be a surprise to learn that the man who comes out on top in his opinion for his constructive polite and fair approach after a game is Gordon Strachan…even when his team have been thumped….reluctantly I will decline to name names as to who fall into the bad catagory…or the ones (2 being Scots) who can be filed under the a-hole list…but if people knew how they behaved it would cast an entirley different light on their public presentation..
It is also fair to say that clubs can be just as econimical with the truth in how they report things to their respective FA as match officials…Chelsea and Mark Clattenburg spring to mind…
I would imagine Mr. Dallas has decided that he has had enough of Mr. Shiels in his ear and decided to ask the match ref to send him to the stand….on his appearance at the hearing I would guess Mr. Dallas may have believed he needed to protect his position by enhancing his evidence in the belief his original reasons may not have been valid or worthy enough to have Mr. Shiels dismissed…
If that is indeed the case…then his position is untenable…and as in England he should and would be removed from the list of match officials….however this is Scotland and the SFA.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 23:13
Easyjambo…love the spreadsheet with the number of shares and value of individual holdings.
Could you re-do it showing the value of those shares that were in rfc before the ipo as £0 as that money was put in by the original consortium and is not cash raised via the ipo.
For example…cg didn’t pay 70p for his 5M shares. Same for ashley , blue pitch, Iran etc.
=============================
The only ones that the prospectus refers to as having received discounted shares are Chukles (£50K for 5M) himself and Imran Ahmed (£22k for 2.2M) who both paid £0.01p a share. It is likely that the members initial consortium all received heavily discounted shares.
I’d guess that McCoist may have been gifted some shares (as a bonus?), but he certainly paid no more than 50p a share. I seem to recall somewhere that he had invested £450K. He has 1M shares so that would make reasonable sense.
There are also odd allocations, all of 71,429 shares, allocated to Chuckles, McCoist, Smith, Stockbridge, Hart, M Murray etc. I suspect that these will be bonus shares issued on admission to AIM. The value of the 71,429 shares works out at exactly £50K at 70p a share.
Forget “is they is or is they ain’t the old club”
Forget “whataboutery”
Forget the share issue.
If the SFA and MSM (generally) continue to perpetuate the myth that ‘Rangers’ remain them it is without dispute that they are complicit (at best) with an act of unforgivable societal and corporate negligence. Indeed, to many it would be deemed fraudulent.
And, if so, I for one pray their demise be swift and unforgiving.
After suffering through SSB tonight I still feel enraged. Obsessed I am according to Darryl who seemed to have grown a set tonight now hes flitting country, not to be missed may I add. Now I here you say don’t listen, but I have a penchant for suffering I guess, but I do enjoy the panelists being grilled. Diss-missive in the extreme tonight of valid facts & points there was no debate, It was they exist as we say so, hahahahahahahah sort of thing. I don’t believe they can be separate entities though as then every club can do what they want. Why don’t Celtic just go out and sign Messi and a few other players sod the bill and make a run for the champions league. If we don’t win it feck it we will come back as The Celtic. Consequences there has to be for reckless dis-regard in football, which Oldco was in the extreme. Scottish football was cheated by all clubs that have went bust over the years. Liquidation was saved for the worst sinner of all and I’m afraid it dying was the relevant punishment. Can anyone argue with that? There has to be a fear factor of insolvency to deter, unless its a free for all do we want that? Does anyone know where we can write to etc to clarify The Rangers FC situation regards to history etc? Surely there must be somewhere we can get this resolved once and for all, whatiffery has gone on too long.
I think you have to assume that the institutional investors have all paid the full 70p a share to make up the £17M placement. The attraction for these investors is not a discount on the share price, but the fact that RIFC investments attract 30% tax relief as it qualifies under VCT and EIS schemes.
It is the only reason that RIFC was set up as a holding company, since TRFC would not have qualified on its own. Hence the fund raising is actually being carried out within RIFC.
paulmac2 says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 01:11
‘I would imagine Mr. Dallas ..’
—
One or two earlier posts have mentioned the place of ’emotion’ in shaping the attitudes of people to their footballing allegiances, attitudes which in the cold light of fact may be seen to be utterly irrational.
A long, long time ago when I was a wee boy, I used occasionally to overhear, while playing on the simple rug in front of the coal fire in our corporation house , the chat between my mum and dad.
From that chat, I learned that a man named Dallas and another man man named Torbet ( nicknamed ‘Wingy’ because he had lost an arm, as my dad had lost a leg, in the war) were in my dad’s estimation his enemies.
That simple childish impression springs immediately to my mind when I hear the names Dallas and Torbet..
They are forever , in my unreasoning psyche, associated with potential ‘harm’ to my dad.
In my adult years, I’ve never met anyone with either of those surnames.But I know that if I did, i would immediately try to find out if they were connected to my dad’s ‘enemies’.
Absurd, really.
But ….
And another thing …… can the MSM now put to rest this myth of a global support base of 5 million.
Or at least (if true) show it up for the glory hunting hypocrites they are. A potential global fan base of 5 million producing a shares result of £5 million is equivalent to this base contributing an average of £1 per fan.
Hearts fans so far have apparently raised £800,000.00. Even if we suppose they have a global fanbase of 0.5 million (how likely is that?) then their fans have contributed a minimum of £1.60 per fan.
On this basis then average Hearts fan has contributed an 60% more than ‘The People” have done on average!
Perhaps the MSM should accept that Hugh Adam was right about this glabal support all those years ago and stop peddling myths.
My tuppence worth if I may.
We have all witnessed interviews involving Charles Green, Ally McCoist. Walter Smith. Sandy Jardine et al where the subject of Oldco/Newco and history has been ‘touched upon’.
They all, to a man. use phrases like, “To my mind” or “As far as I am concerned” or “By my way of thinking” as an opening gambit to their assertion that it is the same club.
Charles Green makes every effort to include phrases like “this 140 year old institution” and/or “this world record holding club” in any sound bite he offers. He even refuses to use the name that he gave to the club.
Pundits on TV and radio do likewise.
Even my blue-nosed friends, and there are many, who would wax lyrical about RFC’s achievements up until around 18 months ago are now struck dumb when the sublect of football is raised in the pub. They would much rather we spoke of what was on the juke box. They use phrases like “but in my eyes” or “in my heart”
These premises should be considered in the same manner as, “I am not racist but……….”
You just know that what follows is bolleaux.
All of this tells me all I need to know.
They know the truth of the matter.
What’s worse. They also know that we know too.
No fan of TRFC will convince me that they are the same club any more than I will convince them that they are not.
I simply content myself with a knowing smile.
Stuart C
Thanks again for your contribution, and well done TSFM for putting up with the moans and groans from many of us in need of another verbal fix.
Stuart, I dont buy the argument of emotional attachment as regards St Johnstone and the fact that an unscrupulous group of businessmen nearly killed the club, (buried family members notwithstanding.)
The unscrupulous businessmen did indeed nearly kill St Johnstone. They did not, however, steal millions from the tax payer and steal substantial amounts of revenue from other Scottish clubs, steal trophies, dog whistle, threaten, intimidate, etc… etc.. St Johnstone did not place men in Scottish football governance to favour them. They did not influence referees, at least not on a weekly basis.
What St Johnstone did nearly killed them, themselves. They did not nearly kill Scottish football.
The comparison you make is a very weak one. Had St Johnstone behaved in the way Rangers have – and I am taking into account more than fiducial inexactitudes here – you would have ‘walked away.’ You would have also ordered an immediate exumation, I am guessing.
Can I say one thing, and I expect thumbs down for it, but I say it honestly. Had Celtic football club behaved in the same way as Rangers/Sevco have, Celtic Park would now be an actual graveyard. The fans would have done ‘walking away’ and would have disassociated themselves from it completely.
I would still like your view on Campbell Ogilvie’s continued employment.
whullie says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 02:27
‘
‘I simply content myself with a knowing smile.’
—
Exactly so.
Matter of fact.
Amusing extract – and from STV website
=================================
“…Rangers are locked in a battle with the Scottish Premier League over some of their titles being stripped. Charles Green is refusing to accept that potential sanction, related to the non-declaration of EBT payments to players.
It seems Green is now going one further. Rangers International have demanded the 2012 Nigerian Premier League title is awarded to them. Why? Because of the financial irregularities dogging other clubs…”
http://www.vanguardngr.com/2012/12/we-won-the-premier-league-rangers-claim/
paulsatim @ 00:59
Thank you 🙂
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-tell-dundee-united-that-rangers-1496602
THE SFA have told Dundee United there is nothing they can do to interfere in the Tannadice club’s boycott bust-up with Rangers.
United wrote to SFA chief Stewart Regan two weeks ago after Charles Green took the unprecedented step of formally backing the supporters snub of the Scottish Cup clash between the two clubs.
Arabs owner Stephen Thompson wanted clarification on several issues surrounding the shock move, including Rangers’ rights to their full share of the gate money if they refuse to take or sell tickets.
Record Sport understands the governing body have now replied to United to say none of their rules or articles have been breached by Rangers and that the Ibrox outfit will not be charged with bringing the game into disrepute ahead of the February showdown.
It will be Rangers’ first trip to an SPL club since they failed to persuade the top flight sides to vote ‘yes’ to a transfer of their share in the league from oldco to newco last summer.
The SFA may well have to get involved in the issue if the clubs fail to reach an agreement over ticket pricing for the tie.
Rangers chief executive Green has vowed to give his club’s share of the gate from the game to charity.
Share Price Information for Rangers Int (RFC)
Share Price: 74.00 Bid: 72.00 Ask: 76.00 Change: 74.00 (0%)
http://www.lse.co.uk/SharePrice.asp?shareprice=RFC&share=RANGERS_INT
That’s at 08:00 today.
“Record Sport understands the governing body have now replied to United to say none of their rules or articles have been breached by Rangers and that the Ibrox outfit will not be charged with bringing the game into disrepute ahead of the February showdown.” and that says everything, right there. The administrators of our beautiful game are shown to be completely incompetent.
Someone has offloaded 214,250 shares already.
19-Dec-12
07:49:34
70.00
214,250
Sell*
72.00
76.00
149.98k
O
Dave B says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 00:01
I first saw the “wee torn faced nyaff” starring for Dundee at Celtic Park before his Aberdeen success.
——
I was lucky enough to start following Aberdeen from about 1976, though I wasn’t old enough to start going to games until late 1978 or so. I was a Pittodrie regular until about 1986 when I moved south.
Going to Pittodrie was absolute pleasure in those days. I couldn’t have timed it better … the Beach End, the growth of the team, the ascent to European success, the players we had in those days, Scanlon then Weir, Rougvie, Kennedy, Stevie Archibald, the 7-0 beating of Sion that gave us the spark of hope, the Bayern game, the Waterschei walkover, the regular hammerings of our rivals, the fake-messed-up free kicks that made us howl with laughter when they worked yet again. We used to cheer when we got a corner as if we’d already scored from it, and at 16:45, we couldn’t wait for the next game. Aberdeen were an absolute joy to watch. Wonderful days, and I count myself blessed to have been there.
redetin says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:19
1 0 Rate This
Someone has offloaded 214,250 shares already …
—–
Any idea how much that is in real dosh Red?
PS
faza2010 says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 21:10
4 0 Rate This
I watched Kings there, notably Baxter and Jinky.
———–
Cheers Faza, not to mention King Stramash himself in the stand perhaps 🙂 Funny old world isn’t it. I always liked the blue V-necks better than green hopes. Daft really. In the real world though, I’ve much preferred many hooped players and their managers to their opposite numbers.
angus1983 says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:29
Dave B says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 00:01
I first saw the “wee torn faced nyaff” starring for Dundee at Celtic Park before his Aberdeen success.
——
I was lucky enough to start following Aberdeen from about 1976, though I wasn’t old enough to start going to games until late 1978 or so. I was a Pittodrie regular until about 1986 when I moved south.
____________________________________
I took your place around 1986 when I moved to the NE. Leighton, Miller, McLeish, Betts then Gilhous, Snelders, Nicholas. There was some good fitba in the 80s. Now, in my nomadic phase, I’m most likely to be at Brechin or Forfar.
Danish Pastry says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:48
redetin says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:19
1 0 Rate This
Someone has offloaded 214,250 shares already …
—–
Any idea how much that is in real dosh Red?
___________________________________
It give the deal price as 70p and the total as £149.98k. Sorry, lost the format whe I cut and paste.
Nice post BRTH, once again reminds me of what this site could and should aspire to. I have many football books (mostly from The Green Side) but I will now ask the missus to add the kindle version to my ever growing Christmas wish list.
Since joining the RTC/TSFM clan I have found myself agreeing with Rangers fans, making friends with a Hearts fan, having a interest in bean counting, financially contributing to lower league clubs I don’t follow, and now to top it all off…. buying a book about the Sheep Chasers!
We can change long held attitudes and perceptions so don’t give up the fight!
Why on earth would someone buy 200 000 shares at 70p and sell them for the same price immediately? Wouldn’t there be brokerage charges or something?
Of course it is possible perhaps that the seller had purchased at a heavy discount as has been suggested, but where would find a mug who would buy that amount at a premium if a discount had been available?
From a lay perspective, it does seem very odd. Or is there a simpler explanation?
redetin says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:53
0 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:48
redetin says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:19
1 0 Rate This
Someone has offloaded 214,250 shares already …
—–
Any idea how much that is in real dosh Red?
___________________________________
It give the deal price as 70p and the total as £149.98k. Sorry, lost the format whe I cut and paste.
————
So, someone may have already made a tidy profit if they acquired their shares at a lower price.
Douglas Fraser @BBCDouglsFraser
Rangers FC shares started trading this morning at 70p: early trades up to 75.5p. #rfc
Tuesday 18 December 2012
Spiers on Sport: what comes after Charles Green at Rangers?
No-one yet knows where this Charles Green project at Rangers will end. Great intrigue remains
around this Yorkshireman and the success or otherwise he may deliver at Ibrox.
inShare
We do know some things about Green. He is plainspoken. He has “balls”, as they say. And he has honed an almost flawless knack for “playing to the gallery”.
This last phrase riles him, due to the frequency of it being observed. Green bridles at its very utterance. But it is undeniably true.
Green has transformed his fate at Rangers by realising that, whether he actually believed them or not, issuing certain statements was guaranteed to get the Ibrox faithful on his side.
Hence his bluster about bigotry contributing to the downfall of Rangers – irony of ironies – and other stuff about SPL and SFA agendas. These outbursts have all served to get once-doubting Rangers fans rooting for him.
Green has been shrewd and calculating in this regard. And by heavens, it has worked.
But these aspects are the mere fripperies. So what if he plays to the gallery – is it a crime? Much more germane is where he is taking Rangers, and whether he can haul the club from the carnage and make it a success again.
We have just witnessed the conclusion of the Green-designed £27m Rangers share-issue and, on the surface at least, it appears to have been a reasonable success.
In British terms, raising £17m through institutional investors might seem paltry – but not in Scotland. The Scottish game is depressed, of diluted value, yet Green has still somehow managed to get some City-known finance houses to come in with a stake.
The Rangers fans’ take-up seems less successful – at between £4m to £5m it was half of what Green had aimed for – but this is easily explained.
Many Rangers diehards have already spent £300-plus on a season-ticket. The minimum price for buying a cache of shares was set at £500. There is financial austerity around, never mind that Christmas is looming.
If Green has made one botch over this, it was possibly in the timing. Yet he had verbally locked himself into offering supporters a chance to buy a portion of Rangers before the end of 2012, and was compelled to deliver.
Naturally, some scepticism prevails. Others argue that Green and Rangers are essentially passing round a bucket for much-needed working capital, and that in this regard, time was of the essence.
Either way, a glut of money is heading Rangers’ way, though if Green is in any way true to his word, he will be an iron chancellor, and spend it cautiously.
What fascinates more than anything about this Green/Rangers marriage is what it will all lead to down the line.
One thing is for sure: Green is for the off as soon as possible. He wants to make money out of Rangers via his share-options and head back home at the first opportunity.
What will happen thereafter with a cast-list of Rangers shareholders, each limited to a 10% (or less) ownership of the club?
I hope all this eventually paves the way for a return to the club of someone like Paul Murray, a west of Scotland businessman who knows Rangers, loves the club, and is singularly lacking in bluster.
Murray, some say, is tarred by being a member of the “old board” under Sir David Murray, but this is an unfair observation.
Paul Murray, like Alastair Johnston and Martin Bain, had grave reservations about Craig Whyte’s arrival at Ibrox. But they were all powerless to stop it, swept away by a tide of events.
In the aftermath, moreover, Murray spoke sincerely and convincingly about the tragedy of Rangers’ demise and his hopes for the future. He would be a good man for Rangers to have back in the Ibrox boardroom.
The dust will eventually settle on Rangers. The club is bound to be restored, in time, to Scotland’s top flight, and Charles Green will be no more. And if Green has made a success of his intervention, he will deserve (within reason) his financial reward.
But then who will steer Rangers? Who will be the new custodians in the Ibrox boardroom?
That is when the new life of the club will really take shape – when Charles Green is gone.
Re the Sevco/DUFC boycott – funny how the SFA are washing their hands of it, stating no rules have been broken. Shame the “rules” weren’t so rigorously applied when Oldco went into liquidation, and with the subsequent events.
On another point, Gordon Strachan was only the second best small, ginger-haired midfielder in Dundee in the mid 70s.
Note Minus fees, how much will that be?
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11433739
ianagain says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 09:15
Note Minus fees, how much will that be?
=========================================================
Were fees note costed at £2.5m?.
Once again in that quaint Little Red Riding Hood way of his, Graham Spiers misses the point completely.
No, much more germane is where Charles Green’s tactics, by stirring up a very unpleasant hornet’s nest, is taking our country.
Yet more “end justifies the means” claptrap. Do they actually read this stuff back to themselves before writing it down?
Opening to 08:50 Avg price 73.91 No. traded 398,709 Value £ 287,187.19
Thanks to Stuart C for another excellent contribution. His focus on whataboutery is very pertinent and germane (if I can borrow from his colleague Graham Spiers) in that it’s use as an instrument of deflection in almost all Scottish Football matters this last year or so has been widespread.
Also a reminder that it is not a device monopolised by Rangers fans in that period of time.
bayviewgold says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 08:07
13 0 Rate This
The administrators of our beautiful game are shown to be completely incompetent.
……………………….
Incompetence means not able, I think.
In this case and others, they are able but unwilling.
Great blog Stuart,and can I just say Danishpastry I am fairly enamoured of your suggestion re whatiffery.In fact I’m smiling quietly to myself at the thought of the discussion I can have with my other half a faithful and diehard supporter of an alleged diddy team playing in Paisley .We often disagree on matters fitba but both have been encouraged by the emergance of young hungry Scottish players both at our respective teams and others .Whatif the future is actually brighter than we beleived….
1st off, an apology…..i had a total dolly yesterday. Of course, the 1st season that Sevco will be able to apply for a license to participate in UEFA competition is 2016-2017. I’ll spare myself my blushes by not explaining my mistake….but it was the sort of thing a 3 year old might have done!
2nd, Easyjambo
sorry, was only reading on the mobile last night so wasn’t really able to digest everything as I would have liked
your spreadsheet lists the total market cap of Sevco – all the shares, all the shareholders and uses the float price of 70p for them all
However, something like 22,000,000 of those shares were issued on a zero cost basis as they were a swap on a 1:1 basis for TRFC shares.
so in actual fact, we can take 22m x 70p off the amount of money raised = £15.4M off the headline number RAISED
That still leaves a very healthy £14M in cash from new investors (assuming the 70p is correct) and £a reported £5m from the berz. £19M in total.
NOT TOO SHABBY AT ALL.
I would be sceptical that the institutions paid 70p, they may get 30% tax relief on it being a VCT/EIS type investment. But even at that it still values the market cap of the company at £45M – about £10M more than Celtic with a fraction of their income streams.
No denying in 5 years Sevco might match that income if it gets back into SPL/UEFA competitions, but that is in 5 years – but the value of the company today is greater than it can expect to level out at in 5 years once it restores incomes. So, even in a best case scenario, that share price will fall. This leaves no margin for institutional investors to make a return on their investment as the 30% benefit they would get from EIS/VCT investing would be lost.
Of course, they could just write it off against gains elsewhere – but they could just as easily have bought Comet and HMV shares if the idea was to make a loss to offset other gains (why search for a EIS/VCT investment that gives you a 30% premium if your intention is to make a loss?)
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=11433739
————————————————————————————————————————–
if they are “xlaiming” to be the same club as the one that went bust, why are they allowed to without having to pay back all the money they owe – even over a long period of say – 100 years?
no wonder the world economy is fxxx
For what it’s worth I still think that some of these investors were the original ones in Ticketus and the immediate selling of some of these shares somehow re-inforces my view. It will be interesting to find out who actually bought these traded shares this morning.
tibfkaelc says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 07:39
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-tell-dundee-united-that-rangers-1496602
Well you can’t say the authorities have not been warned about nipping this in the bud.
Lets just look forward to the next time the club from Ibrox sticks it two fingers up to another member club or the associations themselves and continue the tradition of being a permanent embarrassment and occassional disgrace.
They will forever be the most disliked club in the country and they will trip themselves up at some point again in the future. People and organisations with this modus operandi always do. And how we will laugh again.
stuart cosgrove, if you are reading –
how can your relative be “buried” in a football stadium,
or do you mean his ashes were scattered in the stadium
or perhaps in the cremetorium next to the stadium ?
sorry to pry, but it’s unusual to get “buried” in football grounds, is it not?
What thoughts on Dundee United selling tickets to away fans for the upcoming Scottish Cup tie?
The various polls done on the forums showed an appetite for a boycott, but it was far from unanimous!
Cat amongst the pigeons.
just read the story about the SFA saying/doing nothing regards the sevconian outburst/boycott against DUFC
1st off, it’s in the record and there are no quotes…..so, made up pi5h as usual is my 1st thoughts.
However, there has been long enough for the SFA and/or vincent Lunney to act. This is a clear case of bringing the game into disrepute.
What was the jumped up charge they got Vlad on last year? If this unprecedented call from one club to boycott another is not against the spirit of the game – and damaging to it’s reputation, then i don’t know what is.
Frankly, if the clubs refuse to act on this (with or without the SFA) then they are condoning the action and deserve the trouble and abuse allowing sevco to survive will bring. they also no longer deserve the support of the fans.
Fans threatened the SPL clubs last year not to allow the beast that is newco sevco into the spl and they listened. Sevco are now destroying the game and the clubs are letting them…time for the fans to act again or we won’t have a game to speak of within 5 years
Further to above DUFC v Sevco cup tie, i’ve now changed my mind….previously i had stated that DUFC should pay over the 40% “due” to Sevco for the tie – as it is the rules.
However, if DUFC have not yet been paid for the tie at ibrokes last year, they should withhold the money and force the SFA to act.
better still, if still not paid, DUFC should take the SFA to the CoS over this and the mythical 5 way agreement.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:14
just read the story about the SFA saying/doing nothing regards the sevconian outburst/boycott against DUFC
1st off, it’s in the record and there are no quotes…..so, made up pi5h as usual is my 1st thoughts.
However, there has been long enough for the SFA and/or vincent Lunney to act. This is a clear case of bringing the game into disrepute.
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And still sweet FA from the SFA on their website. Who leaked the “story” to the Daily Ranger? Hmmm
There is only one possible explanation for the outrageous behaviour of the SFA that makes any sense
ie
They intend to announce a wholesale re-organisation of the SFA as part of the reconstruction proposals
A re-organisation that will conveniently pay off Donkey and Regan and allow Ogilvie to “retire with dignity”
Not The Huddle Malcontent says: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 09:53
====================================
There were five lots of shares issued and money raised:
1. The initial consortium raised £5.5 to buy the assets plus £1.25M in pre acquisition costs, e.g. working capital for the “CVA period”.
Investors including Blue Pitch, Margarita, Zeus, Imran Ahmed etc were given 22M shares between them. That money has already gone from the club, but the average price paid would work out around 30p a share.
2. A Pre IPO fundraising collected £5,575,000, with 8,075,000 new shares issued.
These investors included Mike Ashley and Gorbon Ltd, The average price paid for that lot was 69p a share. Green claimed that the second lot of investors paid £1 a share so there may be a mix of higher and lower prices in that lot.
3. Chuckles took up his option to buy 5,000,000 shares at £0.01p a share raising just £50,000
4. The placement shares for institutional investors was for 24,242,857 shares at 70p. That raised the oft quoted £17M (£16.97M to be exact). The investors at this point included Hargreave Hale, Legal & General, Cazenove, Insight etc.
5. The public offer scheme was to raise up to £10m in return for 14,285,714 shares at 70 a share. We have been told that £5.2M was raised in this offer so approx 7.43M new shares will have actually been issued.
The total money raised will be in the region of £34.5M, less initial purchase costs of £6.75M and IPO placement costs of around £2.5M. That leaves a net £25M cash pile to pay off loans or invest in the club.
Their opening price of 76.5p seems pretty healthy. Some people may not like it, but today Chuckles has done a good job for his initial consortium members and made a healthy (paper) profit on the way. At the middle price the market cap is is currently in excess of £49M.
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=GB00B90T9Z75GBGBXASQ1
goosygoosy says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:40
0 0 Rate This
There is only one possible explanation for the outrageous behaviour of the SFA that makes any sense
ie
They intend to announce a wholesale re-organisation of the SFA as part of the reconstruction proposals
A re-organisation that will conveniently pay off Donkey and Regan and allow Ogilvie to “retire with dignity”
======================================
or….they are clueless, corrupt, incompetent cu…
their motivation is to preserve teh status quo and they have no clue how to develop the game beyond 4 “OLD Firm” games on sky every year and a pathetic tv deal
not fit for purpose.
torrejohnbhoy says:
…The dust will eventually settle on Rangers.
The club is bound to be restored, in time, to Scotland’s top flight, and Charles Green will be no more…
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sorry, tjb
they are a new club.
never been in the “top flight” to be “restored to”
if it was the “same club”, thre would be no outstanding debt or debt write off.
easyJambo says:
Wednesday, December 19, 2012 at 10:42
1 – that was me – ta!!!
The total money raised will be in the region of £34.5M, less initial purchase costs of £6.75M and IPO placement costs of around £2.5M. That leaves a net £25M cash pile to pay off loans or invest in the club.
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Great stuff EJ, thanks for that.
right, great unknowns now……initial purchase costs of £6.75M
i guess we won’t know for a while, but are we assuming there was no premium on that “loan”
we know Imran loaned the company 200k and in return he received 228k back plus 2.2M shares (£1.5M based on 70p)
now, the 28K alone isn’t a bad return for loaning 200k for 3 months. but to throw in £1.5M in shares on top???
So, if the initial purchase price money is being repaid – is £6.75M an accurate number to repay the consortium?
Auldheid says:
Tuesday, December 18, 2012 at 20:45
Iceman
Having given my side of the story and relevance to the blog topic I think my post should be left in the interests of ending whataboutery through truth and reconciliation.
________________________________________________________
Sixty years of experience with the peepil convince me that retribution for what has happened to Rangers is more on the minds of the Bears than reconciliation, in spite of the fact their woes are self inflicted.
Every word, every utterance on a daily basis bears that out.
So, although truth and reconciliation are noble and desirable targets, I will quite happily settle for labling.
Most of the labels attached to the Ibrox club are accurate, and based on bitter experience.
http://www.investegate.co.uk/CompData.aspx?code=RFC&tab=announcements
can a new company, Rangers International Football Club plc, inherit the trading history of a deceased plc, whilst they have shed millions of debt? Really ? Can they?
More uncertainty for Hearts with news that Vlad’s bank (he owns 65% of it), Ukio Bankas, is in meger talks with another Lithuanian bank. It’s the latest in a series of reports suggesting that all is not well with Vlad’s business interests.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-19/lithuania-mulls-bank-merger-with-ebrd-assistance-eversus-says.html
Chuckie is on with Jeff Randall @ 7pm on Sky News tonight.
Jeff Randall the man who called RFCIA “the quintessential British club”
I can just imagine the fawning interview.