The Existence of Laws

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The Existence of Laws

A Blog by James Forrest for TSFM

I am a socialist, and as a socialist I believe in the fundamental goodness of people. Some people find that hard to believe when they read the stuff I write.

I published my first novel recently, on politics and the corrupting nature of it, and it is a deeply cynical book, a book where no-one has clean hands come the end. What has surprised some of those who’ve read it is that I didn’t focus on the lies and smears of the right, but the hypocrisy and deceit of those who claim to be of the left.

Corruption, you see, doesn’t respect political boundaries or points of view. It’s like rainwater. It finds every crack, and gets in there.

My political beliefs revolve around two apparently paradoxical elements; the belief in the inherent decency of people and the need for a strong, and powerful, state. I believe the second underpins the first, and this brings me into conflict with a lot of people, some on the left and some on the right. Too many people see the state as inherently evil, as something that interferes too much in the lives of ordinary people. As something suffocating.

Yet the state exists to protect us. It exists to provide a safety net. It exists to regulate and to oversee. If the state is made up of bad people, if the gears of society are captured by those with malicious or selfish intent, the results are obvious; war, corruption, chaos.

The vast majority of our problems in the modern age can be neatly summed up in two lines from Yeats’ poem “The Second Coming”, which I used to open my novel. “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.”

We live in a time when those who are protecting their own interests have assumed such power that they’ve cowed the rest of us. They have become a law unto themselves. They have changed the nature of the game, because they have sapped our will to the extent some barely put up a fight anymore. The weak get weaker, and the strong use their strength to crush the rest even more. It is a vicious struggle, a downward spiral.

Society is held together not only by the endeavour and common interests of its citizens but by a collection of laws. We elect the people who make those laws. They do so in our name, and we can remove that right every four years. That is a powerful thing, and we do not appreciate it enough. The present corruption exists because we allow it to exist.

The people around me continue to puzzle over my uncommon interest in the affairs of a football club on the west of Glasgow. My own club plays in the east end. I tell those who ask that my primary interest in the goings-on at the club calling itself Rangers is no longer about football; how could it be, after all? With promotion this year they are still a full two divisions below us, emasculated, skint, weak and unstable. If we were fortunate enough to draw them in cup competition the match would be over, as a tie, by the halfway point … in the first half.

In footballing terms they are an utter irrelevance.

Rangers is more than a football club to me. They are a symbol. Their unfolding calamity is an on-going outrage. What is happening there, what is being allowed to happen, is an offense to decency. It is a stain on the face of our country.

In short, it is a scandal. It is a scandal without parallel in sport.

Yet it’s not just a sports story either. If it was, I might not be so focussed on it. What is happening at Rangers is a colossal failure of governance. It is a damning indictment against the very people who are supposed to oversee our game. It is a disgraceful abrogation of responsibility from those at the top, those who claim to be “running things.”

If this is not a failure of governance it is a result of corruption at the heart of our national sport. It says they are bought and paid for, and I will say no such thing here.

So let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. We’ll say instead that what they are is weak, indecisive, inept and disconnected from reality.

It reminds me of our political class, which has become insular and ignorant about what the public wants, and what it needs. It’s not a wonder parties like UKIP can achieve national vote shares of 25% at local elections. Nigel Farage strikes me as a dog-whistle politician, the kind who knows how to appeal to a select group of voters. He is little different to Charles Green, the man who beguiled Rangers fans into handing over large amounts of money, because he was “standing up for the club.” It is easy to do what he did, easy to do what Farage is doing.

Real leadership requires toughness. Say what you like about the Tories, but they have that in spades. Yeats was right about the worst being full of passionate intensity. Green was. Farage is. Cameron and Osborne personify it in their political outlook.

It is easy to be cowed by blunt force politics, and by “tough talking Yorkshire men” and venomous speeches about “strivers and skivers.” The politics of divide and conquer is the oldest form of politics there is, and it’s no surprise to see it practiced by some of the vested interests in the game here in Scotland. Yet, lest we forget … something significant happened last year. The maligned and the ignored, the weak and the voiceless found something they never realised they had. They discovered that, in a very real sense, the power was in their hands.

Last year, the fans rose up when the governing bodies and the media went all-out to save Rangers from the self-inflicted wounds caused by a decade of cheating, malpractice and ineptitude. I have no problem calling that what it was.

What happened at Rangers seemed incredible, but it was all too predictable, and some of us had been talking about it for years before it hit. The Association seemed caught in the headlights but it would amaze me if they really were as insular and ignorant as they appeared. They must have known how bad the outlook was for Rangers. They just chose to ignore it.

They were aided and abetted by a thoroughly disreputable media, a collection of cowards and compromisers, charlatans and frauds, masquerading as journalists, but who long ago laid aside any claim to be bold investigators and settled for commenting on events as they unfolded. More often than not, with their ill-informed opinions, sometimes due to weaknesses in intellect and others wilfully ignorant, they failed even in that.

Entire newspapers became PR machines for crooks and swindlers. They aided in the scam because they didn’t do their jobs, some because they were lazy, some because they were incompetent and others because they wanted a seat at the table and were willing to sacrifice whatever integrity they once had in exchange for one.

That all of this was embraced by the Rangers fans is amazing to me. They trusted when they should have been asking questions. They closed their eyes, covered their ears and sang their battle tunes at the top of their voices so they wouldn’t have to hear anything they didn’t like. As incredible as I found it then, and still find it now – and now, even more so, when they have already seen the results of it once – I find it pathetic too, and I do feel pity for some of them.

A lot of these people are genuine football fans, and nothing more. They have no interest in the phony narrow nationalism, or the over-blown religion, or the notion of supremacy which manifested itself in a ludicrous statement from McCoist when interviewed recently on Sky.

Some of the Rangers fans look at their team of duds, kids and journeymen, they look at a boardroom of cowards and crooks, they look at a failing manager in his first (and last) job in the game and at a dark future and are not in the least bit impressed by, or interested in, the chest-out arrogance espoused in those ridiculous words “we are the people.” They know full well that their present crisis was made by men like McCoist, and they understand that pretentious posturing is not an act born of strength, but a scrambling around in the gutter, and a symptom of weakness.

They understand their position, and they hate it. And because they care about Rangers, because they value the club, because they cherish those things that made it a great Scottish institution, they want that back. They understand that before the Union Jack waving, Sash singing, poppy wearing, Nazi saluting, Orange element became the public face of their support Rangers meant something else, and that, above all things, is what pains them the most.

People do not hate Rangers. When the country appeared to turn its back last year, they were turning the back on favouritism and the bending of rules. Yet it would be a lie to say that there is not an element of dislike in the gleeful mockery of many rival fans.

But they don’t hate Rangers either. They hate the version of it around which a certain section of the support continues to dance. They hate the version which hates, and so too do many, many, many Rangers supporters, and they definitely deserve better.

David Murray chose not to openly challenge that version. Indeed, he encouraged certain strands of it to flourish and grow, with his “Britishness Days” and his effort to turn the club into the “team that supports the troops.” Other clubs have done as much, if not more, for the British Army than the one that plays out of Ibrox. Other clubs have given more money. Other clubs have lent their support to those on the front lines. They just chose to do it with respect, and with class, and with dignity. They chose to do it in private, understanding that there eventually comes a tipping point between looking after the ends of the soldiers and using them to promote your own.

The army has not battened on to Rangers. Rangers has battened on to them, and although it is unclear when an altruistic motive became darker, what started out as a gesture of solidarity is now used to entrench division and promote a notion of superiority.

Craig Whyte took over from Murray and immediately understood the lure of the “dog whistle.” He knew too that the media would accept whatever he told them, without question, and as he spoke up for “Rangers traditions” he made sure the lunatic fringe was well onside. He met face to face with the hard-core extremists in the support first and made them his praetorian guard. They spoke up for him until the day the club entered administration.

So, whereas Murray pandered to them and Whyte used them to further his own ends, it was only a matter of time before someone suggested to Charles Green that he could use the same tactics to win over the support. He went even further and blatantly promoted and encouraged this mind-set, and stoked the hate and nonsense to frightening new heights. The same people who cheered Whyte to the rafters jumped on board the Big Blue Bus and the results are clear.

Through all of it, the ordinary Rangers fan has seen his club buffered against the rocks, battered, broken, smashed to smithereens and sunk. Now there’s a big hole in the side of the lifeboat, and they are terrified that further tragedies await.

They are right to be concerned. Much of the media is still not telling them what they need to know. The people in charge of their club – the owners who have lied, the former hack who covered up the truth about Whyte and now acts as a mouthpiece for Green, the “club legends” who are content to sup with the devil and take his greasy coin when they should be standing toe-to-toe with the fans – are trying to silence those members of the press who do have facts to present.

How many times now have media outlets been banned from Ibrox for daring to report the truth? The manager who demanded the names of a committee last year defends those inside the walls who are desperate to keep secret the things that are going on. He is either an unprincipled coward, or he is, himself, bought and paid for. The fans suffer for it.

The “inconvenient truth” is still being kept from them, and this denies them any chance to play an active role in their club. Indeed, it is all too possible that they’ve passed a point of no return, and that their club is heading for a new liquidation event and it can no longer be stopped.

In either case, their power has been eroded to the point at which they must feel they have nothing left to do but stand back and watch what happens next.

They are wrong. I am a socialist. I believe in the inherent good of people. I think the ordinary decent Rangers fans are the only people left who can save their club … and the means by which they will do it is as simple as it could be.

They must stand up for “big government.” They must embrace the need for a “strong state.” They must lobby the SFA, and they must trust the SFA and they must get the SFA to follow its own rules and thereby save them from any further harm.

There is a tendency amongst some Celtic fans to see our governing bodies as pro-Rangers. If it is true then those running our game are ruining Scottish football without benefiting the thing they love more. The incalculable harm that has been done to Rangers in the last 20 some months is a direct result of the subservient media and the willingness of the football authorities to be “deaf, dumb and blind.” Those who believe this has actually helped the Ibrox club have not been paying attention in class. It has irrevocably scarred them, and it may yet have played a hand in destroying them once and for all, as a force if not as a club entirely.

For years, the SFA sat and did nothing as a club in their association operated a sectarian signing policy. They did nothing whilst the fans sang sectarian songs. In their failure to act they strengthened those elements of the Rangers support, instead of isolating, alienating and eventually helping to eliminate those who saw that club as a totem pole of division and hate. Their failure over EBT’s, and their lack of scrutiny, led to one of the greatest scandals in the history of sport, and I say that with no equivocation at all. The testimony of their registrations officer in the Lord Nimmo Smith investigation was a disgrace and in years to come it will rank as one of the most disreputable and damaging moments in the association’s history.

The most egregious failures of all were the failures in the so-called “fit and proper person” tests, which allowed first Whyte and then Charles Green to assume controlling positions at Ibrox. They will pass the buck and say the responsibility lies with the club itself, in much the same way as they are content to let the club investigate itself at the present time, but any neutral who looks at this stance knows it is unprincipled and spineless. It’s like letting the defence set the terms at a trial. It is foxes investigating the chicken coop.

It is a blueprint for corruption, and a recipe for disaster.

It is now too late for the SFA to declare Green “unfit”, as it was too late when they finally slapped that title on Craig Whyte. He and his allies own Rangers, and they control its destiny. They can push the club to the wall if they choose, in the final extremity, if that gets them what they want. The time for changing that is past. The damage has already been done. The barbarians are not at the gates. They are inside the walls, and sacking the city.

The SFA will be forced to punish Rangers for the sins of the owners, for the second time in as many years, and whilst it is right that the club face up to that, all the better to send a message to other clubs and other owners, the SFA cannot be allowed to slither off the hook here as though this was none of their doing. Green will skip off into the sunset. Craig Whyte has yet to pay his fine. These people never cared about Scottish football and they don’t care now.

The SFA are supposed to. Our governing body is supposed to govern, for the good of the whole game, and not as a support system for a single club. What they have allowed to happen on their watch is absolutely shameful and if the people responsible were men at all, with any sense of accountability, they would resign en masse.

They can pretend ignorance, but only the truly ignorant would accept that. Craig Whyte was not inside Ibrox a week before RTC and other sites were dismantling his entire business history, with some of the people here doing the work the SFA would not. Whyte himself claims to have made the governing bodies aware of the scale of what was facing the club, and they did nothing at all. Heads should have rolled a year ago.

In October of last year, on this very site, I posted an article in which I wrote:

“Which isn’t to say the due diligence matter isn’t worrying, because, of course, it is. Again, no-one is going to convince me that the SFA has conducted proper due diligence on Charles Green and his backers. No-one will convince me they are satisfied that this club is in safe hands, and that the game in this country will not be rocked by a further implosion at Ibrox. They failed to properly investigate Craig Whyte, because of lax regulations requiring disclosure from the club itself, regulations which are just a joke, but they can be forgiven for that as the press was talking sheer nonsense about him having billions at his disposal, and a lot of people (but not everyone!) were either convinced or wanted to be convinced by him.

To have witnessed what Whyte did, to have witnessed the Duff & Phelps “process” of finding a buyer, and having Green essentially emerge from nowhere, with a hundred unanswered questions as to his background and financing, for the SFA to have given this guy the go ahead, only for it to blow up in their faces later, would annihilate the credibility of the governing body and necessitate resignations at every level. There would be no hiding place.”

There are times when it is fun to be right, but this is not one of them. It is dispiriting and disquieting to have been so on the nose. It scares the Hell out of me, as someone who loves football in this country, to have seen this matter clearly when the people running our game apparently either did not or chose to ignore very real, very obvious, concerns. The Internet Bampots had no special insight or access to information that was denied those at the SFA. We just weren’t prepared to ignore it and pretend that it wasn’t there. There was too much at stake.

I have become convinced that things will never change until the Rangers supporters join us in demanding the full and unabridged truth here. They need to come out from under the bed, and confront their fears. They need to be willing to take the consequences, so that their club can emerge clean from this, and start again, with all this behind them.

And it can all happen with one simple thing. The application of the rules.

The existence of laws comes down to a simple principle; they protect society from those elements within it who are interested only in their own selfish ends. We may cry out at those rules and regulations we see as “restrictive”, but the law was not made to restrict our freedoms but to protect them. Had the SFA years ago acted against Rangers sectarian signing policy, and the songs from the stands, the club would not have mutated to the point where there was no help on hand when they needed it the most. Let’s not kid ourselves about this; Whyte and Green were only able to grab control because the club itself has a dreadful image which put off respectable and responsible buyers. The SFA could have helped change that perception years ago and did nothing.

The SFA could have conducted its own investigation into who Craig Whyte was. They could have asked David Murray for full disclosure when he was running up £80 million of debt, a sum of money that is beyond belief for a single club in a small provincial backwater league. Had they had the guts to do that the club would never have spent itself into oblivion and forced the hand of Lloyds, which led indirectly to their ignominious end.

The SFA could have fully investigated Charles Green and the means by which he took control, instead of rushing through a license. His emergence at the last minute was transparently suspicious and designed to force them into a quick decision, but they did not have to bow to that pressure by making one, without being in possession of the facts, as it is now 100% clear they were not.

Had they asked for every document, had they insisted on legal affidavits and personal securities from investors (and this would have been perfectly legitimate and is common place in other licensing areas) none of this would have come to pass. After Craig Whyte they had a moral responsibility to the rest of the game to get this one right and their failure is without parallel in the history of Scottish football.

As the club hurtles towards a new abyss, names are cropping up which should send a shudder down the spines of every honest, genuine supporter of not only Rangers but every team in the land. The SFA claims that a strong Rangers is essential for the sake of Scottish football, but they have been extraordinarily lax in protecting that club, and therefore the game, from destructive elements. Craig Whyte and Charles Green had dubious personal histories, and the acquisition of the club itself was mired in controversy and scandal. Yet it was allowed.

Neither Green nor Whyte were known to have operated outside the law, yet neither was worthy of trust or stood up to scrutiny. Neither man should ever have been granted the status as fit and proper persons to assume a role in our national sport, and if it is true of them what can we say about the three men who are, presently, being touted as the Great White Hopes for a bright, new Rangers future; Dave King and the Easdale brothers?

King recently cut a deal with the South African government over an on-going dispute over taxes. In other words, he pled guilty and accepted the central plank of their argument; that for years he was engaged in wilfully with-holding vast revenues from their Treasury. The media does not like to put it like that, and the SFA seems willing to ignore it utterly, and this would be scandalous enough. But it does not stop there. HRMC rules – as well as the SFA’s own governance documents – actually bar him from serving on the board of the new club.

Last but not least, aside from being an admitted tax cheat, King is also awaiting trial in South Africa, having been indicted for corruption, forgery and fraud – 300 charges in total. Yet as recently as last week, we were told that the Association was willing to look at him and consider representations from his lawyers. This is almost beyond belief.

If Dave King’s position is untenable, and he is yet to be convicted of a crime, what can we say about the position of the Easdale’s? One of the two brothers, Sandy, has already served jail time. He is a convicted criminal, a fraudster nonetheless, who’s “victim” was the same Treasury who are appealing one case involving the old club and liquidated it entirely over another. This is precisely the kind of “businessman” the fit and proper person test was supposed to weed out, and if the SFA holds its nose here the reek will stink out the halls at Hampden for decades. If King or the Easdale’s are judged fit and proper, then who exactly is the test for? What exactly do you have to do to fail it? How do we explain the existence of laws, when these are not applied?

Pascal says “Law without force is impotent.” The SFA’s weakness has allowed one version of Rangers to destroy itself, and has allowed an existential risk to another. If the next power at Rangers resides in South Africa or Greenock I can say with some certainty that the Association is engaged in an even more dangerous roll of the dice, because the surfacing of fresh scandal will be an ever present risk, and will be of the sort no-one will survive.

The damage to Scottish football will take years to heal. The Scottish game has been through enough trauma. It does not need more. It barely survived the last calamity to hit Rangers. The rest of us should not be forced to pay the price of the next one.

The greater damage will be done to Rangers itself. If the Green crisis ends in another collapse – as it well might; another administration event is a certainty, and another liquidation is a much more likely prospect than it was before 14 February 2012 – the club will once again have to start from the bottom, and this time the reputational damage will be impossible to repair. The club faces internal strife, sporting sanctions, and criminal investigations. The last takeover might be declared a fraud. the Whyte takeover will almost certainly be. The share issue might be invalid, as well as criminal, and the people involved may well end up in jail. Lawsuits could follow from investors, there could be as yet unknown consequences from the Upper Tier Tax Tribunal (thank you Brogan Rogan for pointing out what those might be) and a host of other issues.

Rangers fans must be the loudest voices here. How do you want the world to view your club in years to come? Do you want one to be proud of, or one forever associated with the shame and disgrace of these days gone by? The one which bailed out on its tax obligations. The one with supporters who disgrace your very name. The one which allowed Whyte and Green to take you to the cleaners and send you to the wall. The one which handed over control to one convicted criminal and another awaiting trial. Do you want to be reborn clean, or mired in the muck?

David Murray destroyed your financial stability. He made it so no bank would issue you a line of credit and no investor of note wanted to buy. Craig Whyte liquidated you. Charles Green has cast the future of the Newco into doubt and acted in a manner which has annihilated your credibility with the financial markets for decades to come.

Between these three men, they have taken everything from you, and the press and the people who run the game here, as well as some of your own blindly ignorant fans, have allowed them to do all this and more. Now they conspire to hand the keys to Ibrox to other men of questionable character, who will wreck further havoc on the reputation of the club.

The Scottish Football Association has damaged the game it was supposed to protect, but above all else their greatest failure of governance was a failure to protect one of its biggest clubs from its own excesses and those of its owners.

Rangers fans, the SFA have betrayed your trust, more than the trust of any other club. What you must insist on now is full disclosure and transparency from the powers that be in Hampden. The SFA has to end the charade of allowing your club to handle this in-house. They must hand everything over to an outside agency – whether a legal one, or a footballing body like UEFA – and they must demand co-operation and answers, and threaten to withhold the license if they don’t get them.

You must not be afraid of that. You must embrace it. The men with their hands on the gears at Ibrox are motivated by money, and nothing more. If the license is withdrawn their “investments” are worthless. They cannot risk that.

You must demand that the rules on fit and proper persons are applied, and where necessary even made stronger, to prevent your club falling into unclean hands. You must demand that they protect your reputation from further damage, by getting this all out there and acting accordingly, even if that means your club does not play football for at least a year.

You must be willing to suck it all up, knowing that what will emerge is a Rangers which has been cleansed and moves forward with honour, and dignity, led by custodians who treasure it rather than those who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The Rangers Standard has recently emerged as a genuine voice for those in your support who are sick and tired of what Rangers has become, and want it restored to something that is worthy of the love and respect in which you hold it. On that website, there are discussions about the kind of club you seek to be and about whether the institution of Rangers is about more than just football.

If that’s how you feel about it then you know it is about more than how many titles the club can claim, about more than just results on the park, about more than just the game. Rangers, like Celtic, is an idea. It has to be something you are proud of.

I am a socialist, but one with a fevered imagination and a tendency to write very dark things. This piece won’t have been good reading for some of you (perhaps all of you haha!) but I think there’s more hope in here than in other things I’ve written.

In spite of everything that’s come to pass, I still believe. I believe in Scottish football. I believe in our system of football governance, even if those who are working in it are failing on some level.

In society, as much as we strain against them, laws exist for our protection. To fail to enforce them is to leave us at the mercy of those elements who would do us harm. The rules of football ensure the protection of all clubs, not just a few.

The failure to enforce the rules has never had graver consequences than here in Scotland.  The irony is that bending and breaking them has hurt the one club those violations were designed to help. It cannot be allowed to happen again.

The rules must be applied without fear or favour.

The best must find their conviction, and their passionate intensity once more.

James is a co-editor of the On Fields of Green Blog http://www.onfieldsofgreen.com/

About the author

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Trisidium administrator

Trisidium is a Dunblane businessman with a keen interest in Scottish Football. He is a Celtic fan, although the demands of modern-day parenting have seen him less at games and more as a taxi service for his kids.

5,802 Comments so far

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beatipacificiscotiaPosted on8:44 am - Jun 7, 2013


TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 08:30

Charles Green also said he only met Craig Whyte once. Including the two meetings referred to the today’s tapes (the meetings before and after, on the same day), and the meeting where he was told “you are Sevco”, that makes at least 3 in my book.

Charles Green also said he was in touch with the Administrators from the beginning of Administration and was doing his work in the background. It would appear he was introduced 2 1/2 months into the process, at the last moment.

Charles Green is a self-confessed liar. Suggesting Charles Green is dishonest is like suggesting a snake slithers.

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tobyPosted on9:06 am - Jun 7, 2013


From the Sun article…

‘The deal was cut late last night and means a damaging extraordinary general meeting — a nightmare scenario for the club — will now NOT take place.’

There’s nothing like a good bit of transparency to clean the decks…and this is nothing like it.
Welcome aboard, Mr Easdale !

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/4958908/Bus-tycoon-becomes-Rangers-director-and-Malcolm-Murray-stays.html

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Danish PastryPosted on9:15 am - Jun 7, 2013


The more you listen the more you glean from the conversations.

* On #4 CW says he saw no personal danger from Ticketus since he believed they would still be locked into the ST deal for whatever Rangers emerged. Oops!

* And he could not remember the name of broker who introduced him to CG …

* Hopes for CVA route probably too late by this meeting, anybody who came in would have to fund June-July to the tune of £3-4m! Club may not emerge from CVA process in time for new season

* Bill Millar’s newco route got round player embargo (so expensive player contracts could be dropped in favour of renegotiation or playing with cheaper tranfers? (oddly, CG’s newco did not get round the embargo, perhaps to preserve the myth of the same club?))

* Listening to this Millar looked the best deal out there

* Blue Knights pretty much dismissed for being long on patter but short on money

* Makes you wonder if Whyte had come clean about finances, directly after Ally’s Euro exits, whether the club could have struggled through administration with him still in charge

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Danish PastryPosted on9:28 am - Jun 7, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 08:02
4 0 Rate This

If the SNP get their wish next year the UJ will be as redundant as those the logo branded ashtray and smoke extractors in pubs. Either there will be a fire sale down Govan way or an increase in sales of memorabilia, maybe I should vote SNP for badness
————-

Briggs, big stink on twitter right now about a certain TRFC fan group talking with a political group from across the Irish Sea about helping the anti-independence campaign …

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tobyPosted on9:35 am - Jun 7, 2013


Danish Pastry says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 09:28

Danish, seems they have to be the ‘Vanguard’ for something…

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/ulster-unionists-in-scots-poll-protest.21269603

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redetinPosted on10:13 am - Jun 7, 2013


Vanguard Berrs tell it as they see it. (parental advisory)
https://twitter.com/Vanguard_Bears/status/325209901020348416

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briggsbhoyPosted on10:19 am - Jun 7, 2013


Danish Pastry says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 09:28

OT I know but realistically there could be civil unrest across the water and down Govan way if the flag they hold so dear was to disappear. The Unionists would rightly feel nervous and isolated and I would offer no further insight into my thoughts on that. Outwith that group there are many who do respect the flag and are proud to be British, I myself am a Scot first and British second but I am in no way fiercely nationalistic if only on occasion’s such as Mo Farrah’s performance at the Olympics. If the people of Scotland do vote for independence I wonder too how those lovely people such as the BNP will react. It’s unfortunate but I personally believe that the UJ has been high-jacked by right wing groups these past few years as the make up of our country changes. Change whatever that is, is difficult for many to handle. In a former company I worked for in management we used to say “if you can’t change the people, change the people” and that is exactly what is required down Hampden at this very moment.

Which way will I vote next year ?, I’m undecided but maybe for badness 🙂

Last week oddly enough I was in the company of the Hoi polloi, I was staying in the home of the Deputy Lord Lieutenant of a English County in the South East of England and I was introduced to a Countess no less who’s surname was that of a Railway Station in London I have oft been through. Don’t ask how the subject came up but my Host had never heard of the song “The Sash ” 🙂

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tomtomPosted on11:03 am - Jun 7, 2013


Are the hoi polloi not the common people (like me)?

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rantinrobinPosted on11:12 am - Jun 7, 2013


My initial reaction on listening to the CF tapes was that they provided an hour of massive entertainment.
Then came my afterthought which was one of disdain at the utter tackiness of the whole affair and the perceived discredit which can be heaped onto a whole host of individuals and institutions.

In my view the lack of respect,care and concern for the creditors is distasteful beyond belief and I am glad that this gave us insight into the meltdown of an institution etched into the fabric of our society.

It is not healthy,it is not pretty and above all the whole saga is downright tawdry.

Are things any different now? CW said Rangers would never end up in the third division.They did only because they were allowed to.

Surely all those who have tried ,by whatever means to protect this institution must now realise the error of their ways.Probably not,because if integrity and the right course of action had been their mantra they would be different human beings with different values.

And there lies the rub.

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Danish PastryPosted on11:21 am - Jun 7, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 10:19
5 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 09:28

OT I know but realistically there could be …
———

Yes, there’s a lot of social complications when football clubs get hijacked by political ideologes, and worse. I’ve never been much of an SNP type, but if it can stop our youth being dragged into foreign wars of aggression and put a Scottish agenda before a London agenda then why not. I’ve lived in an independent country much the same as Scotland, size and population wise for much of m adult life and it works. Was interesting that D&P were prepared to send and SOS to Holyrood though … to me politics and sport don’t mix.

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Exiled Celt (@The_Exiled_Celt)Posted on11:40 am - Jun 7, 2013


Listened to the tapes – feel a bit depressed to be honest.

Many of our fears and beliefs have come to fruition – kind of expected the “fabric of Scottish Society” (copyright Salmond to be given a helping hand – but I think to be fair SNP/Labour/Lib Dems/Tories all would have done the same. But still………..

And the plans are now coming straight in to view……..the SPL/SFA all knew – so our clubs were part of it. SFL as we thought only came into at the last minute to agree to put them into SFL1 – and the bullying did not work – hence some SPL chairmen being outraged by that.

Some of what CW is saying here is obviously lies to D&P – but its obvious its all been done in the full glare of the establishment – its not 2 crooks meeting in clandestine at a secret darkened bar to plot their thievery.

I kind of think its like when you meet someone you have seen in your teams colours and see that they are indeed a jerk as you heard from others – you thought it so, knew it so but wished it were not so – that kind of thing.

Hearing it makes you wonder what else Charlotte has up her sleeve.

OT a bit – was raised in Scotland and then moved to England before moving abroad. USA and Asia is my current domain – I used to up to about 5 years ago decry the corruption and govt shenanigans going on in USA and the countries I do business in as not something I ever saw in UK.

I am slowly but surely in my wiser years seeing after all the MP payment scandals, the Leveson inquiry, this episode and many others – that UK has nothing to brag about when it comes to corruption.

Nothing!

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on11:41 am - Jun 7, 2013


beatipacificiscotia says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 08:44

Charles Green is a self-confessed liar. Suggesting Charles Green is dishonest is like suggesting a snake slithers.
—————————————
I wouldn’t disagree with that. I also think, however, that one of the real strengths of a forum like this is that we can collectively recall facts and compare them with new information, and when there is evidence of a discrepancy, make sure to draw attention to it. Reminding ourselves of these things isn’t a bad thing to do, and at best it might allow us to build up a fuller picture than we were able to at the time – the sort of thing an investigative journalist might be expected to do. In theory at least.

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easyJamboPosted on11:42 am - Jun 7, 2013


pilgrim1888 says: Friday, June 7, 2013 at 00:49

Just finished listening to the duff and phelps recordings, what seems to being suggested is that the SNP government would take measures to ensure the survival of Rangers. Someone tell me I have misheard or misunderstood what was being said?
=========================================
The tape doesn’t say anything about the Scottish Government taking measures to “ensure the survival of Rangers”. Listen again to what was said.

I have made a transcript of the exchange between CW and D&P where the government is mentioned:

CW – Do you think there is any possibility of both these bids falling away for any particular reason? In which case what then?

D&P – It’s more than tried our minds. I’ll tell you the what then. I don’t know what the answer to what then is, but the what then is….. it’s a call into the…I don’t know who we would call first, either Nicola Sturgeon, eh… what’s her name, Shona Robison, or maybe even straight to Alex Salmond What do you want to do chaps and chapettes?

CW – Basically what you are saying is that if at the end of May, if this deal is not done, there’s no money.

D&P – Correct. I think it would be within the next week or so it would be a call to the Scottish Government.

CW – But you think that’s a small possibility. You think that Miller will definitely complete. That’s your feeling, your gut feeling.

The Scottish Government is inevitably approached when a significant business is in trouble. It is normally through the local MSP or appropriate government minister depending on the profile or size of the business and the potential impact on the community. The government will always be asked to see what they can do to help. That request might be to talk to and influence the owners of the company or regulators to save jobs, look for any financial assistance, grants, deferred payments etc., but the reality is that the government has little they can do to in most cases, e.g. ask the ex Johnnie Walker workers at Kilmarnock.

If you truly believe that the Scottish Government would take measures to ensure the survival of Rangers, then I think you are wrong, and that is echoed by events. RFC is in liquidation.

The tapes give a stronger indication that the SFA and SPL were working to provide the softest possible landing for the club. Was that at the behest of the Scottish Government? I doubt it. There are enough vested interests in those two organisations to do what they felt necessary to protect “their” club, without government assistance.

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bad capt madmanPosted on11:45 am - Jun 7, 2013


A wee update on the RCF / MUCF stuff

I recently contacted the Man Utd Charity foundation, & received a reply from an official which had been cc’d to the MUFC lawyer, but now I’ve decided to make sure the trustees were similarly informed, so here’s the text of letters sent today to the individual trustees.

“I am writing to advise you of concerns over the work of the Rangers Charity Foundation (RCF).
The recent legends game will have generated a donation to the Manchester United Foundation however there have been serious concerns raised in Scotland’s football fans’ circles over the governance of the RCF.
The office of the Scottish charity regulator (OSCR) has an investigation underway of this body. This has been a lengthly one and has not yet completed.
Obviously OSCR will not comment on any of the details, however it is a matter of public record from the RCF website itself, and The Rangers Football Club, that the RCF is operating without the minimum number of Trustees. At present there is only one trustee named, with another person listed as Hon President, although whether this person is a Trustee or not is not clear. Regardless, Scottish charity law requires a minimum of three Trustees. The position of the Hon President has also been variously mentioned in the media as having resigned or been removed, although no confirmation from RCF has been made.
In such circumstances RCF cannot make any lawful decisions over the disbursement of monies.
There are serious concerns over both the governance of the charity and the football club generally, with suspicions that the football club appears to have controlling powers over the work of the charity.
Until these issues have been investigated and resolved I would hope that the good name of Manchester Utd is not threatened by association with what could be a serious situation.
I would therefore urge you as a Trustee to satisfy yourself that the RCF is indeed operating legally before accepting any donation which has been made”.

Helpfully the English Charity Commission lists the trustees, (OSCR doesn’t).
The trustees are:
Lord Herman Ouseley, Michael Edelson, Tom Bloxham, Tarun Kapur, David Gill, Philip Townsend, David Maples, Denis irwin, Eamon Holmes, & Virginia Buckley. All c/o/ a solicitors office.

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beatipacificiscotiaPosted on12:10 pm - Jun 7, 2013


TW (@tartanwulver) says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 11:41

Absolutely correct. The sad thing is, forums like this seem to be the only place where these questions are being asked. I love this new media age where every utterance and image lives on to be scrutinised at some future date.

People like Mr Green either don’t realise that their words will come back to haunt them, or don’t care.

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briggsbhoyPosted on12:15 pm - Jun 7, 2013


tomtomaswell says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 11:03

Are the hoi polloi not the common people (like me)?
++++++++

Who gave you a TD for that comment and why ? But to answer your question consider the following:
1) Do you have a Barbour sporting tweed jacket ?
2) Do you own a Barbour woollen jumper with patches on the elbows
3) Do you drive a Land Rover, a Range Rover and a Toyota Prius
4) Do you own a farm in the home counties, Yorkshire or East Anglia
5) Do you own a hunting lodge and loads of land in the Highlands
5) Do you go grouse shooting every August
6) Are you a member of a gentlemen’s club
7) Are you kids at Eaton or Cambridge or Oxford
8) Do you have a green ankle length waxed cotton jacket
9) Do any of your mates have the title Sir or lady
10) Do you wear a Barbour tweed cap
11) Do you have a quilted body warmer
12) Have you attended a Polo match or a Show jumping event
13) Do you know judges in high places
14) Is your uncle an MP

If the answer is no to any of these question then I’m afraid you are not the hoi polloi

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newtzPosted on12:20 pm - Jun 7, 2013


TW (@tartanwulver) says:

Friday, June 7, 2013 at 08:30

From what I’ve heard of the tapes so far, one thing that stood out was the assertion that ‘HMRC are very clear they want liquidation and will want to appoint their own liquidator’ and also ‘Its too late now for a CVA’. This all apparently on 1st May 2012. Didn’t Charles Green at a much later date come out fuming because he said that HMRC had given no indication they would block a CVA?
—————————–

This is an important point …… and needs claifying …….

The HMRC position was known in advance ………..
CW – D&P kept up the pretence that CVA was still possible…… from last nights tapes they were hoping that HMRC would see the light and change tact …. was never going to happen though …

CG was unaware until later in the CW negotiations ….. but enough time when finally did, to conjure up plan B … novation route via Sevco Scotland (incorporated 29th) ….. CG informed CW that FFW (Patrick Cannon) was setting up Scottish Comp …. when CW quiered … CG mentioned requirement for Scottish Comp ….. and hid behind the now infamous …… You are Sevco … !

CW did’nt ask ….. which ? …. both ? …..

Show Us the ‘Patrick’ docs ……………

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redetinPosted on12:21 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Danish Pastry says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 11:21

briggsbhoy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 10:19
5 0 Rate This

Danish Pastry says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 09:28

OT I know but realistically there could be …
———

… to me politics and sport don’t mix.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Every 4 years we get hit with the debate about the very existence of Scotland’s international football team. This is one subject where football and politics do get linked. I for one can’t get exited about team GB in any sport, and I worry every time the debate comes around that FIFA will rethink its position. Fortunately there are many voices among the fans that continue to demand Scotland’s independence on the football field.

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zoylerPosted on12:39 pm - Jun 7, 2013


OT but concerning the charity game between The Rangers & Man Utd how often does a trustee of a charity actually played – that truly decent Corkonian Denis Irwin!

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on12:49 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Was there not a comment on one of the tapes about financial assistance and someone checking with three lawyers about the legality of it.

Could this have been what they were wanting to the Scottish Government about?

Who was the person checking with the lawyers, Raygun or Doneycaster?

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on12:58 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Could this have been what they were wanting to speak to the Scottish Government about?

(Never let the grand-kids play with your laptop, keys stop working)

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Shooperb

ShooperbPosted on1:07 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, June 6, 2013 at 22:33

I know this was a few hours ago now, but I thought I’d answer anyway.

The problem is that the BBC will behave in a professional manner (with ‘dignity’, one might say). They will continue to report the news of the day, as is their duty, including announcements from The Rangers and such like.

There’s only one side throwing their toys out the pram, and it’s certainly not the BBC……

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bogsdolloxPosted on1:09 pm - Jun 7, 2013


It was good to see how decent D&P were with Craigie by giving him every last detail of the prospective bids and an update on the latest position of the SPL/SFA. How useful would all of that information be to another bidder sitting a few feet away across the table!!

Somebody above asked who the guy with the Scottish accent was – I believe it was David Grier.

Good also to have it confirmed that Ticketus stuffed themselves by assuming English Law was the same as Scotchlandshire Law when it came to the season tickets not living on after an insolvency event, especially when they knew an insolvency event was certain. Crivvens !! How lazy and stupid are they with other people’s money?

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scapaflow14

scapaflow14Posted on1:12 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:

Friday, June 7, 2013 at 11:42

I think you are correct, whether we like it or not Rangers are close to the hearts of a significant section of the population. so its hardly surprising that politicians would wish to at least give the appearance of helping.

However, my Labour minded friends should be careful what they wish for, there may be embarrassing tapes for the first minister, in which case he will have to take his lumps. But, it was not Alex Salmond who marched alongside Sandy Jardine, or listened approvingly to the disgusting rabble rousing that followed, it was Ian Davidson MP, Labour Chair of the Scottish Select Committee

http://www.snspix.com/6521447/print/6521447.html

Not that anything they have done will do them the slightest good with the Rangers fraternity. Just look at Mr Lawwell, routinely pelted with vile abuse, yet, without his active support in the corridors of Hampden, its entirely possible that Rangers might not exist at all today.

As Old Uncle Joe put it, “gratitude is a disease of dogs”

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bogsdolloxPosted on1:17 pm - Jun 7, 2013


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 12:49
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You may be thinking about a different type of “financial assistance” -are you thinking about the govt putting in money?

The financial assistance these bandits are talking about goes back to the original purchase of oldco. There was a concern that because the Ticketus money was being used to buy the club in effect the assets of the club were being used to buy itself which is illegal under the Companies Act. It seems that after at least three lawyers opinions they were happy FA was not in play.

They seemed to fleetingly wish it was because they thought it may unwind the transaction. CW must have known the nature of the advice because as the purchaser he would have been the one in the frame for jail time but he pretended not to know. The FA section of the Companies Act is one of the few sections where the penalty is jail time.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on1:23 pm - Jun 7, 2013


bogsdollox says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 13:17
2 0

Cheers for that clarification.

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nowoldandgrumpyPosted on1:26 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Oh Dear Campbell is a naughty boy.

Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 3m
Mr Ogilvie, do you still claim to know nothing or very little http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/campbell-ogilvie-insists-his-hands-are-clean-1128840 … and this. http://www.scribd.com/doc/146285692/Sanned-Initial-Writ … #Architect

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youtawknabootPosted on1:26 pm - Jun 7, 2013


briggsbhoy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 10:19
Don’t ask how the subject came up but my Host had never heard of the song “The Sash ” 🙂

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I am pretty sure the original tune (now commonly recognised as the sash) is called "God Bless The Prince of Wales",
I remember taking ma auld da many years ago to the Edinburgh Tattoo,when it was bein belted oot by a jobrovian brass ensemble of sorts…he nearly got up & walked oot !!

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bogsdolloxPosted on1:28 pm - Jun 7, 2013


scapaflow14 says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 13:12

Not that anything they have done will do them the slightest good with the Rangers fraternity. Just look at Mr Lawwell, routinely pelted with vile abuse, yet, without his active support in the corridors of Hampden, its entirely possible that Rangers might not exist at all today.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I believe there were many others from different clubs providing “active support” too. But to be fair to the clubs they had the sense to listen to their fans and exclude Newco from the SPL.

In the tapes CW believes it is inconceivable that Oldco/Newco wouldn’t be in the SPL. It betrays his blind faith in the establishment to deliver to the vested interests on every occasion. He never figured in to his Masterplan the power of fans to defeat the establishment when they come together. Viva Les Proles.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on1:32 pm - Jun 7, 2013


areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 13:07
0 1 Rate This
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Thursday, June 6, 2013 at 22:33

I know this was a few hours ago now, but I thought I’d answer anyway.

The problem is that the BBC will behave in a professional manner (with ‘dignity’, one might say). They will continue to report the news of the day, as is their duty, including announcements from The Rangers and such like.

There’s only one side throwing their toys out the pram, and it’s certainly not the BBC……

===================================================

Sorry, but the BBC doesn’t have to report every single press release handed out from Ibrox and treat them with kid gloves. Simply enough, if a farcical announcement comes out of Rangers, the BBC can review it, decide if it is 1. TRUE and 2. Newsworthy and then report it.

Instead of reprinting the threats and fantasies of Green/Mather/Traynor/McCoist – without comment – they could simply ignore them or correct the errors in the proclaimations

that would be a damn sight more professional than that speccy erse McLaughlin has been to date.

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paulsatimPosted on1:35 pm - Jun 7, 2013


She’s early today!!
Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 12m
Mr Ogilvie, do you still claim to know nothing or very little http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/campbell-ogilvie-insists-his-hands-are-clean-1128840 … and this. http://www.scribd.com/doc/146285692/Sanned-Initial-Writ … #Architect
Hide summary Reply Retweet Favorite More

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justpedylanPosted on1:37 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Charlotte Fakeovers‏@CharlotteFakes11m
Mr Ogilvie, do you still claim to know nothing or very little http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/campbell-ogilvie-insists-his-hands-are-clean-1128840 … and this. http://www.scribd.com/doc/146285692/Sanned-Initial-Writ … #Architect
_______________________________________________

3rd Sept 1999 Ogilvie letter essentially setiing the whole EBT process in motion. A process he of course claims as company secretatry never to have had any knowledge of.

I wonder if teh letter survived the shredding holocaust?

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bogsdolloxPosted on1:41 pm - Jun 7, 2013


nowoldandgrumpy says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 13:26

Oh Dear Campbell is a naughty boy.

Charlotte Fakeovers ‏@CharlotteFakes 3m
Mr Ogilvie, do you still claim to know nothing or very little http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/campbell-ogilvie-insists-his-hands-are-clean-1128840 … and this. http://www.scribd.com/doc/146285692/Sanned-Initial-Writ … #Architect
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

KABOOM!!

Pinocchio is uncovered – Scuner Campbell can’t stay now. Can he?

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newtzPosted on1:47 pm - Jun 7, 2013


beatipacificiscotia says:

Friday, June 7, 2013 at 12:10

People like Mr Green either don’t realise that their words will come back to haunt them, or don’t care.
—————-

Dear Mr Green …. with regard to your recent STV interview …..

NOW who is Manchester United ?

newtz

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on1:52 pm - Jun 7, 2013


BYE BYE Campbell……..or at least, it should be. He’ll probably be given a raise!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on1:53 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Wow just wow!

Can anyone confirm the legitimacy this 1999 writ?
I presume it is publicly available information?

Ogilvie proven to be a liar?

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chipm0nkPosted on2:05 pm - Jun 7, 2013


I really don’t know what contacting the SNP was supposed to achieve.

From a financial perspective, taxation is not devolved and HMRC are a reserved body. So it’s none of the SNP’s business.

From a sporting point of view, UEFA take a dim view of political interference in football matters (in theory)

So what was contacting them supposed to achieve, some sort of grant or loan.

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bogsdolloxPosted on2:13 pm - Jun 7, 2013


chipm0nk says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:05
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I’m assuming they thought Alex would be able to pull some strings behind the scenes with Cameron to avoid Armageddon and Civil unrest on the streets and while they were at it they might also ask for a soft loan or two to tide over the Scottish Football industry because as we all know at that time it was facing certain extinction.

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SmugasPosted on2:14 pm - Jun 7, 2013


On CO I’ve said on here before that his usefulness was now fulfilled. Expect standing down, large pension pot, thank you for all your efforts etc etc.

On the SNP link I always felt the Salmond phonecall to HMRC went something like this:

AS: Hi, I was just phoning re the rangers case as there’s obviously some votes in it for me.

HMRC: I’m not allowed to discuss individual cases.

AS: I understand they’re in a bit of difficulty

HMRC: You could say that (AS realises he’s on speaker phone given the general hilarity in the background of the HMRC office)

AS: OK You’ve said enough. Careful how you go, the last thing I want is a riot on my hands as they’ve got a bit of history in that regard. Ta ra.

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easyJamboPosted on2:14 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Just remember that the date of 1999 is before the Murray Group Remuneration Trust (what we know as the EBT scheme) was set up. It is more likely the involvement of Ogilvie was in the DOS scheme (the wee tax case).

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easyJamboPosted on2:26 pm - Jun 7, 2013


chipm0nk says: Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:05

I really don’t know what contacting the SNP was supposed to achieve.

From a financial perspective, taxation is not devolved and HMRC are a reserved body. So it’s none of the SNP’s business.

From a sporting point of view, UEFA take a dim view of political interference in football matters (in theory)

So what was contacting them supposed to achieve, some sort of grant or loan.
———————————————————————-
The contact mentioned by D&P was with the Scottish Government, not the SNP per se. I know it’s a pedantic point but the contact would have been made regardless of the party of government.

There was nothing in the audio about the problem being taxation. The issue necessitating contact with the government was that if the bids were to be withdrawn, the money would run out by the end of May, ergo the club would be liquidated, unless some other solution could be found.

As I said in an earlier post, many failing companies will go to the government to see what assistance (if any) they can give, whether it is financial, merely influential, or assist the soon to be unemployed.

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spanishceltPosted on2:29 pm - Jun 7, 2013


While I am enjoying reading and listening to the fakeover releases I keep asking myself what is in it for C.W. who is without doubt behind them.
Obvious answer is he is trying to shake ”people” just enough to pay him what he feels he is entitled to but these people have no intention of parting with anything substantial and surely if he was really intent on going to court with this claim then all the released evidence would have a much greater impact there?

On the other hand what has been released so far is pretty damning on a number of parties and if this is being put into the public domain to simply frighten people then god knows what he is in possesion of that he is more or less saying he will progress to if they do not settle to his satisfaction.

I know one thing, if I was a Gers fan there is no way I would part with one more penny while this charade is going on and while I recognise fans thinking they are helping the club by buying season tickets a lot of people/bodies need to open their eyes, admit this is a new club/company and look at things from a totaly different perspective before this shower of thieves and rouges are allowed bring even more disruption and shame to the game in Scotland

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tomtomPosted on2:31 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:14
2 0 Rate This
Just remember that the date of 1999 is before the Murray Group Remuneration Trust (what we know as the EBT scheme) was set up. It is more likely the involvement of Ogilvie was in the DOS scheme (the wee tax case).

======================

If you read it through the document specifically mentions the Employee Benefit Trust.

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easyJamboPosted on2:51 pm - Jun 7, 2013


tomtomaswell says: Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:31

If you read it through the document specifically mentions the Employee Benefit Trust.
==================================
EBT has become a colloquialism for various types tax avoidance trusts. The writ is dated October 2011 and used the generic term rather that the specific names of schemes being operated at any point in time.

The EBT scheme as we know it started in 2001, so the CO involvement in 1999 is highly unlikely to reference that scheme.

Indeed the reference to purchasing shares was a feature of the Discounted Options Scheme.

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wottpiPosted on3:15 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:51

I have to agree with you on this and also your comments re the SNP.

We should not jump to conclusions but careful decipher what is being said.

From what I hear on the CW-D&P tapes, there is no mention of direct contact with the SNP or the Scottish Governement or indeed that they were even going to help. Merely a conversation that some calls would be put in if the doo doo hit the fan and an assumption that given Rangers size and status someone would take the call.

The reference CO’s letter of 1999 looks like it is not related to what we know as the EBT case.

However when questioned on, what we call the EBT case, CO has said he knew nothing.

Now of course he may be correct and may have been out of the loop, so he may have not told any lies to the questions being asked.

However his apparent direct involvement in this earlier scheme will most probably show that he is far from the daft laddie signing things on good faith and well understood the aim and objectives of ‘EBT’ schemes.

That then brings into question , even if he was directly out of the loop as alleged for the larger scheme, what did he know about these types of schemes in general and as the world’s greatest football administator how did he think they sat within the SFA and SPL in terms of player registration disclosures and the like?

Did he ever think to question how the SFA would view them when signing letters in 1999. Then when at the SFA did he not seek clarification on such matters as it is more than likely he knew that Rangers were still operating such schemes.

Still think he stinks to high heaven but sits behind an image of being a nice guy.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on3:19 pm - Jun 7, 2013


you know, i still don’t get the purpose of the administration.

experience must have told D&P what we bampots already knew – that HMRC would never accept the CVA.

So, it was ALWAYS going to be liquidation. (confirmed on the latest CtH tapes)

Why was no staff paid off, why weren’t season tickets invalidated forcing pay at the gate, why no cost cutting? Even at that, why weren’t players put up for SALE to bring in funds?
Why did they agree to hand over revenue streams to CG’s bid – which pretty much meant he BOUGHT the whole shooting match for a few million
How could they justify running up a £4M loss – i thought administrators became liable for losses incurred during an administration?

What financial benefit did this provide the creditors – or even the newco that was lumbered with the cost base of footballers like Goian/Boca/Alexander etc

And i don’t see how they were in on the deal – as they shafted ticketus right away, and I don’t see any cash in the pot for CW to repay that debt either.

I’m afraid this is just a poorly thought out plan, poorly executed and along the way everyone has decided to try and save themselves – hence the boardroom tussles, spivs bailing out, court cases, legal bills, investigations and the scatter gun pouring of dirt from Charlotte.

To be honest, this is much better than a straight liquidation for Rangers, as they think they might survive this, but in all honesty they are just suffering one indignity after another before finally passing away.

It’ll be a horrible ending for any Rangers fan (or followers of the tribute act) but it’ll be hilirious stuff for everyone else. And i honestly don’t think there will be a way back for a “newco” for sometime.

After this mess, they’ll have to do it as a proper newco in the junior leagues and work their way from there. probably with a few thousand fans tops.

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youtawknabootPosted on3:20 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Was I correct in hearing …didn’t those journalistic stalwarts Traynor & Jackson get a mention..?
,…just read that back might, need some cream if you ever get them 🙂

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tomtomPosted on3:25 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:51
5 1 Rate This
tomtomaswell says: Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:31

If you read it through the document specifically mentions the Employee Benefit Trust.
==================================
EBT has become a colloquialism for various types tax avoidance trusts. The writ is dated October 2011 and used the generic term rather that the specific names of schemes being operated at any point in time.

The EBT scheme as we know it started in 2001, so the CO involvement in 1999 is highly unlikely to reference that scheme.

Indeed the reference to purchasing shares was a feature of the Discounted Options Scheme.

============================

Take your point. However, if I was getting a writ raised, I’d make sure that the correct terminology was used. If they can get a payment for services rendered (otherwise known as a wage to you and me) classified as a loan then who knows what a judge could make of an EBT when you actually meant DOS. After all you can get thrown out of a tournament for not signing a form twice 😀

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bogsdolloxPosted on3:27 pm - Jun 7, 2013


tomtomaswell says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:31

12

0

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easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:14
2 0 Rate This
Just remember that the date of 1999 is before the Murray Group Remuneration Trust (what we know as the EBT scheme) was set up. It is more likely the involvement of Ogilvie was in the DOS scheme (the wee tax case).

======================

If you read it through the document specifically mentions the Employee Benefit Trust.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The company called Montreal mentioned in the writ was set up in relation to the discounted options scheme (the wee tax case) in the letter from CO in 1999. An artificial, very agressive scheme that was doomed to fail. It says something about the Oldco Rangers attitude to paying tax in general that they would get involved in something as “adventurous” as this

There seems to be some attempt to bring those arrangements into the EBT which was established in 2000 at an Oldco Board meeting which of course CO attended.

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chipm0nkPosted on3:28 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 14:26

=======================

I don’t really see how that makes any difference.

In relation to taxation, whatever the party in power, the Scottish government would have no influence.

Whatever the Government, UEFA object to interference in football.

So short of supplying grants or loans I really don’t see what could have been done.

Had grants or loans been supplied then Gretna, Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston etc would not have been best pleased, and rightly so.

The sense that “Rangers will not be allowed to die” clearly extended beyond just the fans of the club.

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pilgrim1888Posted on3:39 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Earlier today I commented that the recordings released by Charlotte seemed to imply that the Scottish government would ensure the survival of Rangers. EasyJambo has provided a transcript of the passage which refers to senior SNP ministers and while I am happy to concede that there is no mention that government assistance is ensured I think it is appropriate to remind our selfs of Alex Salmonds views on Rangers and the case with HMRC in particular

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/video/2012/feb/16/alex-salmond-celtic-cannot-prosper-without-rangers-video

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SamPosted on3:42 pm - Jun 7, 2013


An ESOP is a discretionary trust arrangement, under which the trustees purchase and hold shares in the company which established the ESOP (“the Employer”) for the benefit of its employees. ESOPs are usually established in parallel with other employee benefit programmes, such as conventional share option and profit sharing schemes. Whilst the trustees of an ESOP will be independent of the Employer, nevertheless the Employer will want to ensure that the ESOP is operated in conjunction with any such other benefit programmes.

In recent years ESOPs have become increasingly popular vehicles for employee share ownership schemes. Whilst UK companies have been in the forefront of companies establishing ESOPs in jurisdictions such as Jersey, there are a number of overseas companies which are now establishing such schemes.

BENEFITS OF ESTABLISHING AN ESOP

An ESOP differs from other employee option arrangements, in that employees receive an option to purchase existing shares in the Employer from the trustees, rather than being granted an option by the Employer to subscribe for new shares: this has the benefit to the Employer of avoiding dilution of earnings per share. It has the further advantage of avoiding the need to obtain shareholders’ approval for the scheme, which will usually be required for a scheme involving the issue of new shares.

An ESOP can be used as a vehicle to create a market in a company’s shares: this may be of particular benefit for a privately held company or a company whose shares, whilst traded on a market, are not widely held or traded. For example, the Employer’s founder or major shareholder may agree to sell some or all of his shares to management and other employees: an ESOP can be used to accomplish this goal, in effect financing the sale over a period of time whilst at the same time providing employees with a mechanism to resell their shares to other employees, if they leave the service of the Employer.

Clearly, ESOPs can also be used as a conventional part of an employee benefit package, to incentivise management and staff to assist in improving the Employer’s share value, for their own benefit (through the ESOP) as well as for the benefit of all other shareholders.

ESTABLISHING AND ADMINISTERING AN ESOP

An ESOP is established by a trust instrument, which will set out the terms under which the trustees agree to hold the trust assets. The instrument will confer wide discretionary powers on the trustees, who will be permitted to finance the purchase of shares in the Employer in such manner as they think fit and to grant options over and otherwise distribute the shares which they purchase and hold in the Employer to such persons as they determine.

As already mentioned, shareholders’ approval is not usually required for the Employer to establish an ESOP, as it does not involve a fresh issue of shares; accordingly, the ESOP can usually be established by authority of the Employer’s board of directors.

It is important for the trustees of an ESOP to be totally independent of and to act totally independently from the Employer, though clearly the trustees will take account of the Employer’s recommendations as regards the grant of options to employees.

It is common practice for ESOPs to have trustees resident offshore, in order to avoid UK capital gains tax (or its equivalent in other jurisdictions): Jersey is the most frequently used offshore jurisdiction for the establishment of ESOPs.

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Tartawulver

TartawulverPosted on3:55 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Sam says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 15:42

———————————
A moderrn-day ESOP’s fable then?

Yeah, yeah, couldn’t resist

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easyJamboPosted on4:10 pm - Jun 7, 2013


chipm0nk says: Friday, June 7, 2013 at 15:28

The sense that “Rangers will not be allowed to die” clearly extended beyond just the fans of the club.
=============================
You may be right, but most of my comments today have been in response to what I consider incorrect inferences taken from CF’s latest audio and documents, i.e. :

D&P saying they will contact government ministers in the event of bids being withdrawn is construed as the SNP will do everything they can to ensure Rangers survive.

and

CO having written a letter in September 1999 in relation to the DOS is construed as him having knowledge of the MGRT EBT scheme, something he denied in the Record interview.

You may have a view that both constructions are what actually occurred, but my argument is that you can’t make those links from the sources provided by CF today.

My personal belief is that that in the first instance, the Scottish Government’s hands were tied in being able to provide any support other than some positive spin on the importance of the club to Scotland, as it is with most high profile company failures.

In the second instance, I’m almost certain that CO was fully aware of the ins and outs of the EBT scheme. It’s just that this CF document isn’t the smoking gun that some make it out to be.

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SamPosted on4:11 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Event: Jersey 2013

Venue: The Royal Yacht Hotel
Address: Jersey, United Kingdom

Jersey 2013

This year’s annual seminar for trustees with STEP Jersey

The conference programme includes topics tailored towards an audience of employee benefit trust practitioners:

EBT settlement opportunity
The new EBT model trust deed: what will it mean for the Channel Islands?
Share Incentive Plans after simplification
Tax, legal and regulatory latest: what changes will affect share plans in 2013?
Offshore update on foreign asset/account reporting
Is tax too often the driver of employee share plans?

Employee benefit trusts have been subject to increased attention for several years now and this year was no exception. The French authorities threatened to cause enormous upheaval, which was in the end largely a storm in a teacup. HMRC’s quest to claim back what it sees as unpaid tax under the disguised remuneration legislation has met mixed results.

Now, the Department for Business Innovation & Skills is working on a model trust deed as part of its response to the Nuttall Review which could see a movement of some EBTs back onshore. In addition the Office of Tax Simplification recommended the creation of an employee shareholding vehicle to serve a similar purpose.

These form the tip of the iceberg of a whole slew of measures designed by the government to increase the take-up of employee share ownership schemes, which according to HMRC’s own statistics has been in decline for several years.

Make sure you are up to date with the latest developments by attending this CPD accredited course (3.5 hours).

Attendance prices are £295 for Centre members and £425 for non-members.

Barbara Allen, Stephenson Harwood, is a corporate partner specialising in employee benefits and equity incentive arrangements. She heads the firm’s employee incentives practice.
Barbara advises on all aspects of the design, operation and implementation of senior management schemes and those available for all employees including equity and cash based incentive arrangements for listed and private companies. Barbara has extensive experience of advising on the impact of corporate transactions on share awards. She covers relevant tax, company law, regulatory aspects, trusts, securities laws and institutional guidelines. Her experience spans companies in all sectors with a particular focus on the financial sector.
Barbara is recognised as a Leading Individual in her area of expertise by Legal 500 and Chambers.

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twopandaPosted on4:17 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Small notes: nothing `official` as yet on directors or EGM thing. Wonder who leaked to Sun and why? And – believe it or not Ding wall waking up – Not spelling it out but pointerz to what possibly happened/ happening – `Bernie Madoff and The Rangers – 7 June`. – & any links to tape transcripts?

😉

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newtzPosted on4:19 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Thers are many schemes used by high earners for the purpose of Tax Avoidance

One such is Roosternet Global LLP

Any comments from the current Rangers chairman ……

Others include the likes of …..

The Close Film sale and Leaseback LLP
Cobalt Data Centre No 3 LLP
Future Screen Partners No 1 LLP

Maybe the D&P administration team would like to comment ….

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SamPosted on4:19 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Jim Wilson – Ernst & Young LLP Ernst & Young LLP, is a Director in Ernst & Young’s Tax Controversy & Risk Management (‘TCRM’) team. He has extensive experience of working with a wide range of clients (both corporate and individual) and specialises in managing and successfully resolving significant tax disputes, with a particular focus on Employee Benefit Trust (“EBT”) disputes for the last 8 years. Jim has recently worked with a large number of Trust companies to help beneficiaries realise significant value from (and get certainty regarding) legacy EBT structures which are not under enquiry by HMRC.

During 2011, Jim was seconded to HMRC’s Dispute Resolution Unit for 9 months to help draft and relaunch HMRC’s “Litigation & Settlement Strategy” and lead a pilot of Alternative Dispute Resolution for large business.

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bogsdolloxPosted on4:39 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Sam says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 16:19 T

During 2011, Jim was seconded to HMRC’s Dispute Resolution Unit for 9 months to help draft and relaunch HMRC’s “Litigation & Settlement Strategy” and lead a pilot of Alternative Dispute Resolution for large business.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Poacher turns gamekeeper changes the rules to suit and returns to being a poacher. What use is democracy when the corporates write the laws?

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justpedylanPosted on4:43 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Mentioning the potential for government support should not be viewed as establishment conspiracy. Any significant company going out of business will involve job losses and economic detriment to the local and wider economy. For that reason, an appeal to either the local MP, local authority or even the relevant central government department is entirely legitimate.

We explored the purchase of a company based in Scotland over 10 years ago that we declined to buy as a going concern (liabilities – quantified and unquantifiable) and whose assets we bought post receivership. The company approached the local MP (Margaret Bain) who lobbied their bank and others on its behalf. She was just doing her job. Ultimately the company failed anyway.

Where this affair is unsatisfactory is in Alex Salmond refusing to disclose his dealings with HMRC. What is there to be ashamed of?

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bogsdolloxPosted on4:49 pm - Jun 7, 2013


newtz says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 16:19

Thers are many schemes used by high earners for the purpose of Tax Avoidance

One such is Roosternet Global LLP

Any comments from the current Rangers chairman …
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or from their former Captain?

Barry Ferguson. Tax Avoidance Scheme, Taxi Technology LLP
Barry Ferguson. Tax Avoidance Scheme, Eclipse Film Partnership No 9 LLP
Barry Ferguson. Tax Avoidance Scheme, WRP Dryvac LLP
Also received £2.500,000 via EBT

Let me see if I am getting this right. The players were paid via EBT loans tax free but were then able to use that cash to invest in tax avoidance schemes and set the cost of the investment against what little tax liability they had on the salary they received through the payroll. Nice.

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chipm0nkPosted on4:51 pm - Jun 7, 2013


And also

Rangers were losing money hand over fist, committing tax fraud, and refusing to pay their taxes even after they had collected the money from customers and employees.

Can someone please tell me why the Scottish Government, the Westminster Government, or anyone else would be doing anything to help save them.

The idea is preposterous.

Government fights to keep loss making tax cheat in business.

Yeah, very good.

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bogsdolloxPosted on4:53 pm - Jun 7, 2013


justpedylan says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 16:43

Where this affair is unsatisfactory is in Alex Salmond refusing to disclose his dealings with HMRC. What is there to be ashamed of?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Agreed. And we can be assured President Elect (in his own head anyway) Salmond is so full of his own self importance that he would have taken it upon himself to intervene.

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Forres Dee (@ForresDee)Posted on5:01 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Still nothing from our esteemed media. The silence is deafening!

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StevieBC

StevieBCPosted on5:07 pm - Jun 7, 2013


easyJambo says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 16:10
==================

eJ is quite correct in being cautious about what can be deduced from the writ.

However, I think we can all agree that it is an interesting snippet in the saga – especially as it ‘potentially’ implicates a certain pantomine villain who doubles as SFA President. 🙄

And a proper journalist would at least check if there is any truth / mileage in the latest CF tweet. [I know…]

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csihampdenPosted on5:14 pm - Jun 7, 2013


chipm0nk says:

The idea is preposterous.

Government fights to keep loss making tax cheat in business.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I’m not so sure – isn’t that exactly what HMRC did, when they allowed the sale of the only assets worth anything at knock-down prices, and ensuring that liquidation “did not prejuduce the sale”?

I still cannot fathom why that was allowed to happen before the liquidators were appointed – how could it possibly have been to the creditors (inc. HMRC) benefit?
If it wasn’t, there must have been another reason why the liquidation decision was structured this way. Someone, somewhere, made a decision to leave the door just ajar enough to allow a Rangers to continue in as close to the original format as possible….for some reason.

And judging by the money burn rate, they are as close to the original format as possible.

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Reilly1926Posted on5:41 pm - Jun 7, 2013


When are TRFC due to release audited accounts ?

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pilgrim1888Posted on5:49 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Andrew Woods says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 17:41
0 0 Rate This
When are TRFC due to release audited accounts ?

————————-

According to company check website 28/02/2014

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neepheidPosted on6:04 pm - Jun 7, 2013


csihampden says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 17:14

Someone, somewhere, made a decision to leave the door just ajar enough to allow a Rangers to continue in as close to the original format as possible….for some reason.

=========
The person you are looking for is Lord Hodge. Without his miraculous intervention, RFC would have been in liquidation early in July, their SFA membership would have ceased to exist, and Sevco would have had to play junior football for 3 years before applying for SFA membership in their own right. As for his reasons? I can’t square that circle- but then I don’t have lots of brothers to help me out.

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chipm0nkPosted on6:08 pm - Jun 7, 2013


csihampden says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 17:14

————————————-

How is it exactly what HMRC did.

They rejected the CVA

As a direct result the company was liquidated.

A new one was formed.

HMRC single handedly killed Rangers off.

They couldn’t really prevent a new club called Rangers being formed. Bearing in mind it was (at least on the face of it) entirely new people who were forming it. People wanting to buy a stadium and stuff and starting a new football club in SFL division 3 is really not something HMRC would have any say over.

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bogsdolloxPosted on6:25 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 15:19
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Isn’t the answer that the whole shooting match had to be kept intact because once the debt was ditched they fully expected to resume competitive footy in the SPL. I think that the latest tapes demonstrate this in that D&P are colluding with CW along those lines. All it needed was a figurehead to front the sale but not CW of course (whose reputation was tarnished by this whole affair) and then Hey Presto !! – Charles appeared and was refereed to in a D&P email as the chosen one.

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bogsdolloxPosted on6:31 pm - Jun 7, 2013


chipm0nk says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 18:08:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 17:14

————————————-

HMRC single handedly killed Rangers off.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
David Murray killed Rangers through his contempt for the UK tax system and his obligations to adhere to it’s laws. Sure the laws are being tested in the FTT and UTT but any responsible owner of an Instituition should have never have been so cavalier about his civic duty.

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Not The Huddle MalcontentPosted on6:47 pm - Jun 7, 2013


Yeah bogsdollix but that still doesnt explain why they didn’t take the chance to cut further costs whilst dumping other debt

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chipm0nkPosted on6:51 pm - Jun 7, 2013


bogsdollox says:
Friday, June 7, 2013 at 18:31

==========================

HMRC rejected the CVA, that led directly to liquidation.

Sir David Murray ploughed the club into the ground by spending money they didn’t have and cheating on tax. He overspent by millions of pounds, in addition to the tax they cheated.

Craig Whyte simply stole millions of pounds which belonged to other people. No ifs no buts no sytems, simply stole it.

Both of these things are true, and they are what led to HMRC killing Rangers off.

Bottom line though, it was Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs which decided that Rangers would be no more.

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john clarkePosted on7:02 pm - Jun 7, 2013


With regard to the CharlotteFakes CW/D&P tapes, am I right in thinking that a Court-appointed Administrator, even though nominated by the ‘owner’ of the business-in-administration, is not legally free to discuss with the owner the nature of any bids made by others?

If that is the case, and if an Administrator is recorded discussing the bids of would-be purchasers of the business with the owner,and if those tapes were admitted as evidence, then surely it would be curtains for that Administrator?

Particularly if the Administrator had perhaps already lied to a Judge?

Hypothetically.

Not that any grease-ball of a low-life insolvency practitioner would be so stupid, eh?

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