The Rangers saga as it happened…

Bystevensanph

The Rangers saga as it happened…

The last 12 months has seen a lot of water pass under the bridge.  For a newcomer it is very hard to see past what the MSM are currently printing – I hope this article will go someway to rectifying that, and allow those who didn’t follow this story from the start to get a basic understanding of the views that have been formed on Rangerstaxcase.com and on TSFM.  Further, I hope it refreshes the memories of those of us who have followed the saga since the early days and focuses our attention on asking key questions that remain unasked or unanswered.

I have provided links where possible throughout the time line.  I have also highlighted in red where the story seems to end, a question remains unasked, or no answer has been forthcoming.  I may also have missed some critical points – feel free to mention these and we can add as we go.

The Rangers Saga as it happened…

June 2001: Christian Nerlinger joins Rangers.  Little be known to the rest of Scottish football he will be the first player paid by an EBT (an Employee Benefit Trust) which will later be declared illegal (as administered by Rangers) by HMRC.

Summer 2004: Jean Alain Boumsong rejects English Premier League sides to sign for Rangers on a free transfer.  Six months later he is sold (January of 2005) to Newcastle in an 8million deal .  This deal is later investigated by the City of London police who raided Newcastle and Rangers in June 2007.

A later report from Lord Steven remarked:

“There remains inconsistencies in evidence provided by Graeme Souness – a former manager of the club – and Freddy Shepherd – apparently acting in an undefined role but not as a club official – as to their respective roles in transfer negotiations.”

April 2010: HMRC hit Rangers with a tax bill of 24m before penalties for non payment of taxes  on monies remitted to players and staff via the EBT scheme.

27th March 2011: A new blog appears on wordpress named ‘Rangerstaxcase.com’.  Little did we know the impact it will have on Scottish Football.

6th of May 2011: Craig Whyte buys Rangers FC PLC for 1gbp from David Murray, with his holding company Wavetower taking over 85% of the Football club.

Mid-May 2011:  Craig Whyte renames Wavetower to the ‘Rangers Football Group Ltd’, the holding company for Rangers FC PLC.  He immediately claims he has cleared the Rangers debt to Lloyds Bank and is ready to invest in the team.  He quickly removes Alastair Johnston and Paul Murray from the Board and suspends  Martin Bain and Donald McIntyre.

5th June 2011: RTC uncovers a MG05 document filed at Companies House showing that Rangers have assigned 4 years of season ticket sales to another company.  This is later denied by Craig Whyte, but later on turns out to be the mechanism by which Whyte funded the takeover.

19th June 2011: Craig Whyte is asked about the RTC blog, remarking:

“I’m aware of a website that has dedicated itself to talking about our tax case, I’ve looked at it. What they’re saying is 99 per cent crap”

August 2011: Rangers are knocked out of Europe by Maribor.  A seemingly irrelevant event, but one that leaves a £15m hole in Craig Whytes budget.  One that he meets by not paying the tax man.  RTC questions in October where this money was coming from…

10th September 2011: Court papers from Martin Bain, related to his employment case against Rangers explode across the internet (papers in full here).  Within them there is a plea from Bain’s lawyers to freeze the claimed compensation as they feel there is a question mark over the clubs solvency.  Further it exposes the assignment of ticket sales to a 3rd party and shows that the debt owed to Lloyds Bank has not been discharged completely.  RTC analysis’ of these ‘Bain papers’ is concluded with the following:

While Rangers’ supporters might not be in any mood to thank anyone for helping shed light on this situation, it is good for their club (if not its current and previous owners) that this information is in the public domain. It is especially good for our national game as a whole that we discuss the problems of the last decade openly. Rangers supporters need to ask themselves why they have meekly stood by while the future of their club has been imperiled and whether their “friends” in the media have done them an injustice by becoming complicit in the cover-up of this story.

Unfortunately, despite the information being exposed to all, the Rangers fans failed to listen…

October 2011:  In the first mainstream feature on the case, the BBC air a documentary proving that Craig Whyte had been banned from holding a director position in UK companies for 7 years for ‘putting assets out of the reach of creditors’.  BBC are banned from Ibrox and Whyte claims he will sue the BBC for presenting false evidence – but later admits that he was disqualified.  Rather amusingly he admits this the same day he reveals Rangers have reduced their debt to 14m…. (they hadn’t)

The SFA stay silent on the matter and the writ received by the BBC in February 2012 has since vanished.

30th November 2011:  Rangers PLC release un-audited accounts for the year 2010/2011 revealing profits of 2 million pounds and NET Assets of 76m.  The accounts are NOT signed by an auditor leading to rumors all is not well in Ibrox.

January 2012: RTC explains in detail Succulent Lamb Journalism…  the phrase becomes a defining point of the story, along with ‘internet bampots’, coined by Hugh Keevins.

18th January 2012:  The ‘Big tax case’ concludes.  We still await the findings…

13th February: Rangers file papers at the Court of Session giving notice of their intention to enter administration within 7 days…

14th February:  HMRC petition the CoS to allow them to appoint administrators.  After a short hearing, HMRC withdraw the motion and Rangers PLC promptly appoints the now infamous Duff & Phelps as administrators.  On Valentines eve, Craig Whyte stands on the steps of Ibrox and announces to the angry mob the unthinkable… Rangers FC PLC is now in administration.

That evening it is confirmed that HMRC had pushed for administration over £9 million in unpaid VAT, PAYE and NI since the Whyte takeover.  This later rises to 18m.

99% what Craig?

15th February 2012: The SPL immediately deduct Rangers (IA) 10 points for entering administration, as per league rules.  Possibly the last time they follow their own rules throughout this saga.

Bizarrely, Rangers (IA) push ahead with the proposed signing of Daniel Cousin on wages of 7500GBP/week.  The SFA make no comment, despite this being against the rules for a club in administration.

David Murray, in typical fashion, professes surprise at events which RTC warned about 12 months earlier while Murray was still in charge.  Murray also says:

“Firstly, there has been no decision, and there is no present indication as to the timing of a decision, from the first-tier tax tribunal concerning the potential claim from HMRC of £36.5m excluding interest and penalties.

“Secondly, legal opinion on the strength of the club’s case remains favorable.”

21st February: Daily Mail confirm what RTC told us last year, by confirming that Ticketus bought 100,000 season tickets at Ibrox over the next 4 years.  It was this money that Whyte used to buy the club.  Rangers fans are up in arms.  Even though they ignored the warnings a year earlier.

The SFA announce that Lord Nimmo Smith will chair an inquiry into the circumstances leading to administration.

25th February 2012: The Sun on Sunday launches by printing what they claim is a ‘side letter’ given to Rangers players. A financial expert tells them:

“Number one, you are going to get £122,000 and number two you get £1,200 for a first-team game.

“It equates to salary as far as I am concerned. I would say this sort of letter will be a central thread in the big tax case.

RTC will later confirm they are correct.

27th February 2012:  The SFA confirm they will start an investigation into these ‘side letters’

3rd March 2012: D&P admit Rangers have no chance of making Europe next season, as they admit audited accounts by the 31st of March would be almost impossible.

However, in a baffling move, one month later D&P reveal they are ‘appealing’ the decision to ban Rangers from Europe.  UEFA respond by saying

“Licence applicants must demonstrate that as at March 31, 2012, they have no payables overdue towards their employees or social/tax authorities as a result of contractual/legal obligations to their employees that arose prior to December 31, 2011.”

8th March 2012:  Lord Nimmo Smith forwards his report to the SFA Judicial Panel.  The report contains prima facie evidence that Craig Whyte was not a ‘fit and proper person’.  A hearing is set for the 29th of March.  This is later postponed at the request of Whyte.  The full Nimmo Smith report has still not been released by the SFA.

9th March 2012: With no redundancies in sight, Rangers players agree to pay cuts, ranging from 75 – 25%.  It is later revealed that these are not ‘pay cuts’, but pay deferments which must be repaid in the summer, otherwise Rangers will be in breach of contract.  No info is forthcoming in the summer on whether this was paid or not.

5th April 2012: D&P reveal in their first creditors report that Rangers debts could top 134m, with HMRC claiming 93m of the total.

The report also details debts to football creditors of around 2.3m.  It also details debts of hundreds of creditors, such as that for Susie Thomson – a face-painter from Glasgow owed 40quid.  These were the real human losers in this story.

Interestingly, assets are valued at 116m, as per the 2011 accounts.

23rd April 2012: The SFA’s independent panel finds Rangers (IA) guilty of 5 different breaches of SFA rules relating to disrupte charges and are handed a 160,000GBP fine, the maximum available and a 12 month transfer embargo.  The judicial panel state that the offenses committed by Rangers were only one step “lower than match fixing”, and reveal that they considered the punishment of suspension of license or expulsion from the SFA.  They determine a fine would not be enough given the seriousness of the charges and thus impose a transfer embargo.

In the judgement, the panel make reference to evidence given by the Rangers Financial Controller who said invoices to Ticketus were such that they ” appeared as though Clip Art computer processes had been involved in their creation.” The FC tells the  panel he had never seen them.

24th April 2012:  The uproar from Ibrox is loud, with the Bears taking their anger out on the SFA.  McCoist makes a rallying call, demanding to know “who these people are”  He makes an ‘apology’ the next day for putting their lives in danger, but stops short of apologising for forcing names to be released, despite his club previously voting in a motion to keep names confidential.

As a result, a poor director at Raith Rovers takes his family into protective police custody, and Raith are forced to hire round the clock security after arson threats to their ground.  Finally, in August 2012, McCoist is charged by the SFA for his remarks.  He has decided to challenge the charge and the case is ongoing.

Rangers blame the SFA for not stopping Whyte earlier, despite warnings before he took over from RTC.

“Why did the SFA not investigate when they said they had suspicions before Christmas rather than wait until the club went into administration?

9th May 2012:  American tycoon Bill Miller walks away from a proposed offer for Rangers (IA) after being subjected to threats from the Ibrox crowd and discovering a “30 million black hole” in the Rangers accounts.

11th May 2012: Rangers reveal they will appeal the transfer embargo and fine imposed.  The SFA inexplicably name the 3 man panel that will oversee the decision, going against SFA rules agreed by ALL clubs, including Rangers (IA).

13th May 2012:  Reports suggest Charles Green, backed by a global consortium (still unknown!) has bought shares from Craig Whyte for 2quid.  He is given an exclusivity period to propose a CVA worth 8.5m.

17th May 2012: SFA uphold the transfer embargo against Rangers (IA) .  The SFA state that it was “proportionate to the breach, dissuasive to others and effective in the context of serious misconduct, bringing the game into disrepute.”

The Rangers Fighting Fund along with D&P announces they are paying a lawyer to challenge the SFA in the Court of Session.  SFA say nothing.

22nd May 2012:  It is now May, 3 months since the SFA/SPL announced an investigation into side letters and unauthorized payments to players from Rangers FC.  RTC once again provides evidence of a ‘prima facie’ case by revealing details of Christian Nerlinger’s EBT letters.

23rd May 2012: BBC air a damning documentary revealing details of EBT payments and side letters to Rangers players since 2001.  They also uncover emails showing that D&P’s David Grier seemed to have prior knowledge of the Ticketus deal.  D&P and Craig Whyte threaten legal action, but none is forthcoming.  The BBC also hint at payments made to managers not employed by Rangers at the time, including Graeme Souness.

29th of May 2012:  D&P reveal their ‘CVA’ proposal.  One that was doomed to fail, offering creditors little or nothing.  It also revealed if it was rejected then the ‘assets’ would automatically be sold to Charles Green and Sevco 5088 for just 5.5m (the ‘new’ value of the assets.  No evidence has yet been presented on how these ‘assets’ were valued.)

On the same day (seeing the pattern of bad news being overshadowed by good news yet?) Rangers ‘win’ at the Court of Session, with the court ruling that the SFA had no powers to give a transfer ban.  They decide to refer the decision back to the SFA judicial panel to decide on a new punishment.

Lawyer Gregory Ioannidis remarks:

“If the Scottish Football Association decides to not take action against Rangers, in relation to Rangers submitting the application to the Court of Session, then Fifa can actually penalise the SFA, and the individual club, and the national team of Scotland, and impose an international ban on all of them.”

No action is ever taken by the SFA or FIFA.

12th June 2012:  HMRC release a statement saying that they will reject the CVA.  Given that they have over 25% of the debt, it makes the creditors meeting scheduled for the 14th irrelevant.

“A CVA would restrict the scope of such action. Moreover, the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation, so the sale is not being undermined, it simply takes a different route.

“Liquidation will enable a sale of the football assets to be made to a new company, thereby ensuring that football will continue at Ibrox. It also means that the new company will be free from claims or litigation in a way which would not be achievable with a CVA.

“Rangers can make a fresh start.”

14th June 2012: The CVA is formally rejected.  D&P immediately sell the assets to Sevco 5088 Ltd and Rangers FC PLC (IA) cease to operate as a football club.   The assets are later assigned to Sevco Scotland Ltd.  SPL rules state that a club that ceases to function as a football club should immediately relinquish its share and membership.  This does not happen.

15th June 2012:  Ian Hart denies being part of the Green consortium buying the Rangers assets.  Green had earlier named him when pushed to name his backers

So starts the misinformation campaign from Sevco.

17th June 2012: Rangers FC are excluded from the fixture list for the forthcoming SPL season, replaced instead by ‘Club 12’.  It is widely reported, that if Sevco Scotland are refused a place in the SPL, then Club 12 will be Dundee.  The SPL give no reasons why.

17th – 27th June 2012: Walter Smith, Allan Stewart and Stephen McKenna, and then John Brown all turn up in the papers making ‘bids’ for the assets which Green has already bought.

22nd June 2012 – Lord Hodge seeks report from D & P re: a potential “conflict of interest”, after information given to him by the BBC.

25th June 2012: The BBC reveal that Sevco Scotland will not be granted admission to the SPL, after 6 clubs publicly declare their opposition, after season ticket sales fail to materialize as fans make their views known.

27th June 2012:  John Brown stands on the steps of Ibrox and pleads with Rangers fans not to buy season tickets until Green reveals who are his backers and who owns Ibrox.  This question remains unanswered.  Brown is now silent.

4th July 2012:  Despite weeks of pressure from the SFA, SPL and MSM, the SPL clubs reject the application from Sevco Scotland to join the SPL.

Stewart Regan warns of Armageddon for Scottish Football if Sevco are not admitted to SFL1 instead.  We are still waiting.

5th July 2012Stenhousemuir reveal details of a talk given to them by Neil Doncaster and Stewart Regan, where SFL clubs are threatened with bankruptcy if they don’t vote Sevco Scotland into Division 1.  Figures presented are ridiculed by the internet bampots.

Clyde and Raith Rovers emerge as the cheerleaders for sporting integrity in the lower leagues, with both clubs openly speaking out against what they describe as “irresponsible”.  Raith Chairman Turnbull Hutton suggests the SFL clubs send their mascots to vote on the proposal for Sevco to enter SFL1.

9th July 2012: the SFA refuse international clearance for players who decided to leave Rangers (IA) when the assets were sold, as were their rights under the TUPE laws.  This decision has yet to be explained, and is contrary to legal advice.

Meanwhile, Sevco director Imran Ahmad, when asked what he felt was the exit price to sell Rangers/Sevco was, replied:

“On a bad day the club is worth £50m.”

Of course, they had just bought the club for just 5.5m, and still had no league place for the forthcoming season.

13th July 2012:  Expiry of deadline for submission of report on D&P conflict of interest.  News suggests that Lord Hodge is on holiday.  No news has been heard since and the administration continues…

13th July 2012: Sevco Scotland are allowed to start life in the 3rd division, subject to gaining an SFA licence, after SFL clubs vote to reject the proposal to allow Sevco Scotland into the 1st division.   There is no sign of Armageddon.

15th July 2012FIFA write to the SFA asking for reasons why former Rangers IA players are having their registration transfer blocked.  The players claim their free agents and have rejected the TUPE arrangements with Green’s new club.  As of August Allan McGregor’s move to Turkey is still onhold as they wait on international clearance.  We await an answer, as we suspect FIFA do to.

24th July 2012: Ian Black signs a 3 year deal with Sevco Scotland.  It is unclear how he is registered or who he is contracted to.

9pm, 27th July 2012:  Just 48 hours before the first scheduled match for Sevco Scotland the SFA grant an unheard of ‘conditional’ membership to Sevco Scotland.  It is reported that Sevco Scotland have agreed to a 12 month transfer embargo, starting on the 1st of September 2012.  They also agree to pay all football debts of Rangers (IA).

Sevco, playing in strips of Rangers (IA) defeat Brechin City in extra time to record their first ever victory.  Ian Black plays as a trialist, despite signing a contract with Sevco Scotland earlier in the week.  It is further unclear whether players are registered to Rangers IA or Sevco Scotland, and if the former, how?

31st July 2012: At an EGM of Rangers FC PLC (IA) the directors change the company name to Rangers 2012 (IA).  At the same time Sevco Scotland pass a resolution to change their name to ‘The Rangers FC Ltd’.  Companies house data shows that Charles Green owns more than 10% of The Rangers FC Ltd, despite his claims that no one person would own more than this.  No one from the MSM thinks to ask this question.

3rd August 2012:  The Rangers FC Ltd are granted full SFA membership, after having the membership of Rangers 2012 (IA) transferred to them.  Under what rules this was possible is not clear.

ESPN follow SKY in agreeing a new deal with the SPL for TV rights.  No sign of Armageddon yet.

15th August 2012: Dundee Utd in a short statement reveal that they have not been paid by Sevco/TRFC for the unpaid debt relating to last season’s Scottish Cup with Rangers (IA).  Despite an agreement with the SFA to pay these debts, Charles Green blames the SPL for going back on a agreement made in May to pay this out of money owed to Rangers (IA).  Dundee Utd, and other European clubs remain unpaid, as does the poor face painter from Glasgow.

It is unclear how the ‘conditional’ membership works if the ‘conditions’ have not been met.  

STV further report that SPL clubs still do not know how much TV cash they are going to get from the new SPL SKY deal.  The SPL make no comment.

17th August 2012: Lord Nimmo Smith is appointed to chair an independent commission into Rangers (IA) making undeclared payments to players from 2001 onwards.  They are unlikely to sit before October.

22nd August 2012: ‘The Rangers’ announce they have signed a joint venture with Sports Direct for the merchandising rights.  Companies House shows that the new company, ‘Rangers Retail’, is owned 100% by SportsDirect.com

23rd August 2012: There is still no word on who are the investors in Sevco Scotland.  The SFA have not released any details to explain how Green passed the fit and proper person test.  No details of proof that Sevco Scotland have the finances to last the season.  The question of where are Ticketus is silent. Lord Hodge has still not returned his findings on a conflict of interest in the appointment of D&P.  The FTT result is still awaited, just like BDO await the liquidation of Rangers 2012 PLC.  Meanwhile, Stewart Regan resurfaces to announce details of league reorganization in time for next season, reducing Scotland to 3 leagues from 4.

Oh… and there is still no signs of Armageddon.

28th August 2012: Campbell Ogilvie finally breaks cover to talk about how league reconstruction was on the agenda long before Rangers ran into problems.  He managed however to proclaim;

To be fair, nobody really saw the situation coming

Yes Campbell… just like you didn’t see the side letters.

—-

StevensanPH is an exiled St.Johnstone fan living in the Philippines – he runs the SaintinAsia blog writing about all aspects of Scottish Football.  Thankfully the MSM don’t sell papers in the Philippines…”

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1,011 Comments so far

rabPosted on6:28 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Campbell.

Seeing as how you had nearly 100k in loans due to be repayed as a severance pay ( deary deary me campbell ) to rfc, and this was in dispute at the tribunals first sitting in November 2010.

When did you first become aware that you, yes YOU, would have to answer some very difficult and life changing questions. Did no lawyer contact you, did your old mucker minty not tell you anything, when exactly did you first know that the loan you earned ( oops ) was up for a tax assessment.

Bye bye campbell, will that be you away hiding again.

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TSFMPosted on6:42 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Folks,
Please desist with the referee thread – specifically the bit where it is stated as “fact” that they are cheats. There is enough to discuss here without the embarassment factor creeping in.

Take it to a fan site where people are happy to talk about it.

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rabPosted on6:47 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Well reffed TSFM.

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willmacufreePosted on6:48 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Night Terror says: August 28, 2012 at 17:05
Apology and retraction accepted.
________________________________________________________________
Now that’s what you call misrepresentation, although not very subtle.
You manage to keep avoiding the point. Nor do you answer the question: will you be taking reporting accuracy up with MSM, particularly the “Sporting Life”?.

accies80(Harri159)
I mentioned the “Sporting Life” because I don’t read any of the others. If what you say is correct, maybe they’re learning. I might try “The Sporting Chronicle”

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Doon the slopePosted on6:52 pm - Aug 28, 2012


TSFM

The ‘referee thread’ has made one important contribution – it is an example of how nobody trusts anyone or anything in Scottish football any more. The game is utterly b@lloxed.

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ekt1mPosted on6:52 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Jonny says: @ 17.37pm. The goalkeeper was Bobby Brown ex Rangers and Scotland manager.

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jimlarkinPosted on6:53 pm - Aug 28, 2012


mark on SSB…telling delah*nt, gordon (it wisnae me) smith…they are peddling misinformation…rangers no longer exist…it is now the rangers playing under the sevco…had to START AGAIN AS A NEW CLUB

…delah*unt, and g.smith getting the hump, trying to defend “the club” and how “the club” continues, but the trading company “stopped trading”

well done MARK…the ignoramous’ still won’t take it on board that their beloved rangers
– no longer exists

live in denial !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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coineanachantaighePosted on7:00 pm - Aug 28, 2012


stevensanph says:
August 28, 2012 at 15:12
I will edit if I can’t find the quotes I think I saw. It is imperative that anything on this site is factual and can be backed up with facts. Otherwise we are no better than the MSM.
——————————————————————————-
I think you are being far too hard on yourself. However it is best to be as factual as possible as the mote in our eye will be claimed to be far bigger than the beam in theirs.

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Hoopy 7Posted on7:04 pm - Aug 28, 2012


I generally don’t listen to SSB anymore but just flicked radio on to hear Gordon Smith saying that it was the company which went bust but not the club.

No wonder the game is in the state that it is in.

Just to clarify, in Law when Rangers(IA) go into liquidation there is no more Rangers. Sevco can call itself whatever they think but they are not Rangers.

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AgrajagPosted on7:23 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Hoopy 7 says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:04

===========================

Absolutely.

The PLC and the Club were the same thing, as has been demonstrated time after time.

The members club became a limited company which became a PLC. There is continuity throughout. When the PLC is wound up that is the end of it.

The new company simply cannot be the same thing, as both currently exist.

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willmacufreePosted on7:31 pm - Aug 28, 2012


I see references to “Sepia @ 15.51”. To check on exactly what I’d said I look for the post at 15.51, and there it is …. gone. Could you possibly repost it, until I see what I said? By the way, is there some mistake?

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AuldheidPosted on7:32 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Iceman

It is precisely because we will never know a referees motivations and precisely because the SFA “owns” referees and the whole process of recruiting, appointing, and monitoring performance that there has to be a separation of responsibilities.

That may or may not lead to an improvement in refs but what it will do at a stroke is remove the absolute ability of the SFA to influence referees with impunity, it will remove the suspicion that they are being directed for reasons that have nothing to do with sport, whatever they might be.

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Fan ClubPosted on7:35 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Hoopy7 – Jim Delahvnt summed it up quite nicely tonight and it’s the same opinion of mine – it’s not that a football club’s history doesn’t matter, it’s just that it doesn’t particularly interest him. It’s not a debate I’m really interested in either as fans on each side are arguing (in their minds) black is white and vice-versa. The people who have an opinion are unlikely to change it. If RFC “claim” oldco’s history I don’t think there is anything legally anyone can do. The SFA may recognise the history or they may not but RFC may celebrate that history anyway. In Rangers’ fans mind they will always be RFC. Other people quite reasonably disagree. At the end of the day, if the matter ever gets resolved, I think you’ll find the matter largely irrelevant whatever the outcome.

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jimlarkinPosted on7:35 pm - Aug 28, 2012


“rodger” on ssb, keeps saying
…” i will stress time and time again, rangers have not been found guilty of anything”

erm wrong rodger !

HMRC have deemed that rangers owe them tax that was not payed when the EBT’s were used.

rangers “disagreed” with the HMRC decision

… so, they have APPEALED the HMRC decision.

sorry rodger, but technically you are a wee bit wrong

but it won’t stop you peddling what mark called “misinformation”

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Fan ClubPosted on7:49 pm - Aug 28, 2012


James Larkin – we really are splitting hairs here as for all intents and purposes it’s the same point. Roger is technically “correct” insofar as RFC haven’t been found guilty of wrong doing concerning the EBTs. HMRC have “disagreed” with RFC’s tax treatment of EBTs but there’s nothing to find them “guilty” of yet. It’s a difference of opinion and HMRC, as they do in such situations, can issue a determination based on how they think the tax rules should apply. RFC, as they are entitled to do so, appeal these assessments for the tax HMRC think is due. Once the FTT issue their findings on the BTC then RFC will either be “guilty” or “not guilty” of improper use of EBTs at that point. So, Roger, on this occasion, is correct.

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AuldheidPosted on7:54 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fanclubl

I am reminded by the “same club new club” argument of the scene in Ghostbusters when they are trying to trap a ghost “Don’t cross the streams” is the yell, presumably because Kaboom will be the result.
Well the “its the same club” is the marketing stream and “its a new club” is the legal stream.

If they manage to keep the streams apart the ghost will be laid. If they do not – Kaboom.

Given the legal argument will be unavoidable on dual contracts I’m predicting Kaboom and the legal argument ie new club, will prevail.

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Night TerrorPosted on7:54 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Sepia says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:31

I see references to “Sepia @ 15.51″. To check on exactly what I’d said I look for the post at 15.51, and there it is …. gone. Could you possibly repost it, until I see what I said? By the way, is there some mistake?

Seems our Berwick “goal” debate has been purged.

Probably for the best.

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StevieBCPosted on7:56 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Regan & Ogilvie
=============

With CO popping up to give his spin, the public response simply reaffirms perhaps a unique perception shared by Sevco & non-Sevco fans alike.

Both Regan and Ogilvie have made such a mess of things so far for the SFA, they simply cannot be trusted to be leading any league restructuring.

Whilst both remain in situ, most fans will view their public utterances with suspicion and/or ridicule.

To enable the SFA to start rebuilding trust and credibility amongst their customers, the SFA leadership must be changed in the first instance, IMO.

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campsiejoePosted on8:02 pm - Aug 28, 2012


StevieBC @ 19:56

I said it on the post about changes in the game, that the first priority has to be changing those that run it, before we start looking at any sort of reform

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StanblackPosted on8:09 pm - Aug 28, 2012


accies, every team gets suspect decisions. The plain fact is if you are defending in a game for 80 minutes, you will not get many chances, stop beating.

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StevieBCPosted on8:11 pm - Aug 28, 2012


campsiejoe says:
August 28, 2012 at 20:02

StevieBC @ 19:56

I said it on the post about changes in the game, that the first priority has to be changing those that run it, before we start looking at any sort of reform
===========================================

Following on from the proposed/seconded ‘vote of no confidence’ in Regan – tabled at the recent SFL meeting and which was apparently vetoed by Bannatyne (?);

Do the SFL members have the authority to demand e.g. an EGM to revisit this ?

[And I would expect that if Regan goes, Ogilvie would immediately follow.]

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campsiejoePosted on8:19 pm - Aug 28, 2012


StevieBC @ 20:11

I don’t know the mechanics of the vote, but the clubs should, in my opinion be able to call the shots with all of this
They have all gone very quiet now, and it will take something out of the ordinary to galvanise them again
Perhaps some sort of botched proposals, with just a hint of threatening, might just do the trick
I agree that if one goes, they all have to go

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smallteaserPosted on8:20 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Night Terror says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:54

Seems our Berwick “goal” debate has been purged.

Probably for the best.
===================================================================
New moderators on this site are fierce, I had a post deleted within a minute of posting last week.

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willmacufreePosted on8:29 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Night Terror says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:54
Rate This
Sepia says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:31
I see references to “Sepia @ 15.51″. To check on exactly what I’d said I look for the post at 15.51, and there it is …. gone. Could you possibly repost it, until I see what I said? By the way, is there some mistake?
Seems our Berwick “goal” debate has been purged.
Probably for the best _________________________________________________________________

Was there a debate?
Yes. You’re correct. Probably for the best.

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rabPosted on8:30 pm - Aug 28, 2012


What roger also conveniently forgets in his claims that rfc have not been found guilty of anything.

Anyone remember a wee tax case. Im pretty sure they even put their hands up and admitted that one. Was that not a share option thing, was it included in the players contracts, ( was it flo & de boer ) . There is no reason why this is not done and dusted by now as it is not awaiting any findings from HMRC or court judgements.

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sativa2004Posted on8:44 pm - Aug 28, 2012


It looks to me that Gordon Smith is still in denial.

How long can they keep this charade up?

Is Ally about to fall out with Chucky Green?

Surely the bubble is about to burst??

FTTT September anyone? I’ll take a punt on it!

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Fans Against CorruptionPosted on8:49 pm - Aug 28, 2012


On the subject of “Rangers have not been found guilty of anything yet”.
Rangers have appealed their conviction.
They could not have appealed their conviction unless they had a conviction.
They had a conviction – they had been found fiscally guilty. Hence the demand included a fine as a penalty.

I do like the idea though – it would certainly speed up the appeals process at courts if murderers and the like could launch their appeals before they had actually been convicted…….and on that note, I have put in an appeal for a speeding fine that I intend to acquire in two weeks time…….

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Fans Against CorruptionPosted on8:52 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Actually, scrub that post above – I’ve just realised that if I do get a speeding fine in two weeks, I’ve just shot my appeal to pieces. B*gger!

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midcalderanPosted on8:55 pm - Aug 28, 2012


liviaburlando says:
August 28, 2012 at 18:05

Sepia says:
August 28, 2012 at 15:51

I’m sorry this is so long. I’m also sorry to take issue with such as Stevensanph, LW etc. One last mention of the honest mistakes issue, then I defer to the wishes of the blog.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
How about, instead of endless discussion/ squabbles on here, we set up a ‘bad decisions’ log, but entry onto it is made only by our refereeing tribunal – three ‘volunteer’ appointees whom we all agree are objective and clear-headed and knowledgeable. If three, or two of three agree, on it goes- an official SFM dodgy decision.

The hardest part would be agreeing the tribunal members but I’m sure we could find way if we want to.
——————————————-
But would you name them because I’ll want know who these people are!

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smallteaserPosted on8:55 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Why does Gordon Smith get any airtime whatsoever?
This is a guy who wrote in his book that there was “an agenda against Rangers”.
This was while he was CEO of the SFA.
This hardly makes him a neutral.
He was Director of Football at Rangers while Craig Whyte was in charge.
To date he has used the “no knowledge” and “I didn’t know” excuse to many questions regarding Rangers.
What makes him wanted by the media, what does he know about them that they feel the need to employ him?

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smallteaserPosted on9:01 pm - Aug 28, 2012


3 SPL teams in danger of going out the League cup at the moment, THE Rangers chances just improved.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on9:06 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Apart from the FTT, which is an appeal to a guilty verdict, there is the small matter of the SPL quotation re Dual contracts, where they established that there is a prima facie case to answer, and that appropriate sanctions would be applied once the status of Sevco was clarified.

Its a nonsense to keep this “not been found guilty….” rubbish constantly being regurgitated by the fawning hordes of apologists for Sevco.

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redetinPosted on9:09 pm - Aug 28, 2012


rab says:

August 28, 2012 at 20:30
What roger also conveniently forgets in his claims that rfc have not been found guilty of anything.

Anyone remember a wee tax case. Im pretty sure they even put their hands up and admitted that one. Was that not a share option thing, was it included in the players contracts, ( was it flo & de boer ) . There is no reason why this is not done and dusted by now as it is not awaiting any findings from HMRC or court judgements.

“””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
From D&P Joint Administrators report to creditors 5 April 2012

the Small Tax Case
A dispute between the Company and HMRC regarding the Company‟s use of a Discounted Option Scheme. The liability of the Small Tax Case is circa £3m with interest and penalties of circa £1m;

Small Tax Case
14.28 The Small Tax Case was bought against the Company by HMRC in respect of outstanding amounts owed from the use of a discounted options tax scheme for payments made to Tore Andre Flo and Ronald De Boer between the tax years 2000/01 and 2002/03.
14.29 The total amount determined as due by HMRC in respect of this case is in the region of £4,000,000, after interest and penalty charges.
14.30 The Small Tax Case has not progressed as far as Tribunal and has been settled based upon advice received.

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bad capt madmanPosted on9:15 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Guilty!
Non payment of social taxes
Using the courts to appeal against the guilty verdicts by the independent tribunal & appelate tribunal
Non payment of monies due to other clubs
Not providing audited accounts (twice)

Have the sevconians forgot about these already?

Just because the authorities haven’t followed through with actual punishments, this does not mean mean that the judgements were all of the guilty variety.

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Itsagoal!Posted on9:19 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Well done Redetin 21:09- we must never tire of quoting the small tax case as well as the big tax case as well as the non-payment tax case under whyte.. 12 years of tax cheating. TWELVE YEARS. shame on them.

Well done to Raith Rovers tonight – sporting integrity meets sporting victory against a Premier League team (no offence Ross County just pleased for Turnbull Hutton)

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longtimelurkerPosted on9:31 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Perry Whyte says:
August 28, 2012 at 10:25
16 0 Rate This

***********************************************************************************************************

The Vespar was the boozer mate but yer man Comical Ali sh@t it when the owner’s wife got on his case.

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JustinianPosted on9:32 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Itsagoal! says:
August 28, 2012 at 21:19

Well done to Raith Rovers tonight – sporting integrity meets sporting victory against a Premier League team (no offence Ross County just pleased for Turnbull Hutton)
_____________________________________________________________________

Indeed. Sir Turnbull of Hutton has a finely tuned sense of humour. Forget source but he was quoted recently on ‘things quieting down a bit’ after his valiant onslaught on the steps of Farry Towers… along the lines of…

“At least when I go out now I don’t have to put a Burqa on the wife”

Belter 🙂

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kellsPosted on9:41 pm - Aug 28, 2012


New moderators on this site are fierce,delete posts faster than ff good luck with the site thought it was for debate on the wrongs of scottish football /RTC was a great site this is starting to slip with to many trigger happy mods

Here’s a tip every fan in Scotland had a voice when the powers at be became deaf, don’t fall into the same trap .

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essexbeancounterPosted on9:46 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Carl31 says:
August 28, 2012 at 17:06
6 12 i
Rate This
I have another (humorous and mischevious) question…

lets just say suppose I were to win enough money in the Euromillions lottery, and did the following…
– bought the remaining assets of RFC(IA), then cleared all their debts,
– signed up all the players who had left and arranged to have the team managed by WSmith assisted by John Brown,
– started playing on a ground share basis with a team that had a good size stadium that played in Glasgow, say, The Rangers,
– played our way into a re-organised SFA set up that allowed for 2 more teams and split into 2 divisions of 22 each, whilst also developing a youth set up
– worked our way up the divisions into the SPL alongside The Rangers and established ourselves there.

Q: …how keen would Celtic be to get the chance of humping Rangers eight times a season instead of just four?

========================================================================

Carl31…absolutely wicked…you deserve a host of TDs…as I do for liking your post…!

Get thee behind me Satan…!

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Hoopy 7Posted on9:54 pm - Aug 28, 2012


smallteaser says:

August 28, 2012 at 20:55

Why does Gordon Smith get any airtime whatsoever?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Jobs for the Brothers. They need someone to peddle the lies and tell people to move along as there is nothing to see here.It will never stop.

All we can do is be alert and point out the fact that they are either being economical with the truth or are strangers to the truth.

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BrendaPosted on10:06 pm - Aug 28, 2012


After Mark’s airtime on SSB tonight where he put wiggy and delah**t well in their place, there was a guy ‘Gerry’ asked them (as they had pushed forward the point that it was the company that was liquidated not the club?) ‘what is the name of this company that is being liquidated?’ all 3 panel members answered confidently ‘GLASGOW RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB PLC’. The caller rather smugly thanked them and hung up!!! I don’t think they got it DOH!!! Total denial and arrogance …….. Mr delah**t is getting more embarrassing by the day.

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john clarkePosted on10:10 pm - Aug 28, 2012


campsiejoe says:
August 28, 2012 at 20:19

‘StevieBC @ 20:11

I don’t know the mechanics of the vote, but the clubs should, in my opinion be able to call the shots with all of this….”
——
All I can find about general/ extraordinary general meetings in the SFA’s Articles of Association is at Articles 21,22,23,24.( It seems that one can’t copy and paste from the website page-or at least I can’t, I’m afraid. Just key in SFA Articles of Association and you’ll get them).

These articles are anything but clear, and neither is the Companies Act 2006, but I think they do provide for a certain (smallish) number of members to requisition an EGM to propose a vote of no confidence in the Board ( because of the actions of its CEO).

The members of the SPL, one would imagine, would be able to do the same in respect of Doncaster.

Longmuir would be a matter for the SFL members.

So, if , for example, the wonderful Turnbull could talk another 9 SFA members into requisitioning an EGM to slate Regan, then useful moves might begin to be made to effect a more general clear-out of existing office-holders of the SFA.

The time to do so is now, when the whole future of Scottish Football has got to be shaped by men(and one woman,is it) of probity who command the respect of those who vote them in.

As said before, no one now puts too much faith in the existing office-holders.

Trust once breached can never in any relationship be fully restored.

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BrendaPosted on10:15 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Oops first attempt at this in moderation so I’ll try again ………. After caller Mark on SSB tonight put mr D and wiggy firmly in their place there was a caller ‘Gerry’ who asked the panel ( who were once again pushing dawwell’s point that it was the company that was liquidated not the club!!!) Can you tell me the name of this ‘company’ that is being liquidated? All 3 panel members answered confidently ‘RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB PLC’ the caller thanked them and rather smugly rang off!!! I don’t think they got it!!! DOH …… Total denial and arrogance! Mr delah**t is getting more embarrassing by the day.

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midcalderanPosted on10:18 pm - Aug 28, 2012


5StarsorBehindBars says:
August 28, 2012 at 21:06

…….. Its a nonsense to keep this “not been found guilty….” rubbish constantly being regurgitated by the fawning hordes of apologists for Sevco.
———————————————
Regarding The Big Tax Case, RFC have not as yet been found guilty. What has happened is:

1) HMRC say “RFC, our investigations show you have avoided/evaded a large amount of tax”.

2) RFC say “No we haven’t”.

3) HMRC & RFC can’t agree on this and the investigation/enquiry cannot be concluded in the usual manner by negotiation.

4) HMRC then say, “Well, here are some very large assessments and/or determinations”.

5) RFC say “We’re not accepting these”.

6) The matter still can’t be settled by negotiation.

7) HMRC & RFC then say to each other, “Let’s have a bun fight at the FTT(T) and let them decide who is right.

8) Both sides put forward their case in evidence and FTT(T) then make a decision as to whether HMRC or RFC is right hopefully in the near future.

Then we’ll know if RFC are guilty.

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StevieBCPosted on10:18 pm - Aug 28, 2012


john clarke says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:10

campsiejoe says:
August 28, 2012 at 20:19

‘StevieBC @ 20:11

I don’t know the mechanics of the vote, but the clubs should, in my opinion be able to call the shots with all of this….”
——
…So, if , for example, the wonderful Turnbull could talk another 9 SFA members into requisitioning an EGM to slate Regan, then useful moves might begin to be made to effect a more general clear-out of existing office-holders of the SFA…
================================================

Exactly: even if Sir Turnbull simply made it known in the MSM that he was canvassing support amongst fellow SFL Chairmen, then that might be enough to instigate SFA action.

In the first instance, Regan could jettison Ogilvie to try and avoid a vote…

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Ordinary FanPosted on10:22 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fan Club: What I am struggling to understand with the same club and same history argument, is why were so many connected to Rangers FC so desperate to avoid liquidation? There is barely a downside at all in the same club, same history scenario. Why wouldn’t they have been jumping for joy at dropping 130 million debt and simply face a couple of watered down sanctions and a fresh start in Division 3?

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longtimelurkerPosted on10:23 pm - Aug 28, 2012


SFM: Removed for abuse, language etc

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Fan ClubPosted on10:30 pm - Aug 28, 2012


The word “guilty” is too loose a term to use. In respect of the BTC, like it or not, they have not been found “guilty”. Tax law doesn’t work like that. RFC submitted their corporation tax returns on the basis that contributions to the EBT were not emoluments. The fact that HMRC disagree with RFC’s position does not mean RFC are (as yet) guilty. The normal course of action is that if both sides fail to agree, HMRC raise an assessment showing what they think the correct corporation tax position should be. The taxpayer can then choose to appeal and the matter, in this case, has gone to the FTT. But whether you chose to accept or not, on the BTC they are not yet “guilty” of wrong doing. The fact people gave me so many thumbs down shows (sadly) a blatant disregard to listen to fact.

On the matter of the wee tax case, the scheme didn’t work. Again, they are not “guilty” of tax evasion. They used a tax avoidance product that was shown not to work. That doesn’t make them guilty. On the subject of failure to remit PAYE, then YES they are guilty as charged!!

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NawlitePosted on10:32 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Surely Regan’s recent announcement of the money soon to come to Scottish Football by dint of the agreement on ‘collective bargaining’ for international broadcast rights is reason enough for TH or any of his peers to re-raise the no confidence vote? While it might not yet have been signed off, he must have known this was in course and potentially going to bear fruit, when he issued his ‘slow, lingering death’ pronouncement. He was happy enough to give his own personal ‘armageddon’ view which had less basis in truth, so why not furnish the chairmen with that possible benefit? I’ve asked John Yorkston for his views on this, but don’t know if he will reply.

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SchneebPosted on10:32 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Ordinary Fan says: August 28, 2012 at 22:22

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As campsiejoe said the other night, deep down they know what it really means.

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Fan ClubPosted on10:39 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Ordinary Fan – I am loathe to be drawn into this debate as despite being an RFC fan this matter doesn’t really bother me. But if they are not “Rangers” then who are they? Just a club that happens to play at Ibrox? If they’re not “Rangers” then why did they get admitted into Division 3 rather than a non-league team coming up? I can see arguments for and against, but as I say, I think it’s a moot point as in the eyes of those fans who see new club as same as old club whether or not others share the same view is irrelevant. And I don’t say that to be controversial.

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rabPosted on10:40 pm - Aug 28, 2012


redetin.

Thanks for posting that.

Was the money that was initially arrested for the WTC not eventually set against vat. How can the duffers claim it was settled after advice, if it was still outstanding it would be rolled into the total amount to HMRC.

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midcalderanPosted on10:44 pm - Aug 28, 2012


ongtimelurker says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:23
Honestly, this site is hard work.

……… Anyway I’m off.
—————————–
Get back in here.

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SpecialsWonPosted on10:47 pm - Aug 28, 2012


I think folk are missing the point re Rogers comments regarding guilt, or a complete lack thereof.

It’s the usual problem whereby Sevco fans think that they’ve been ‘relegated’ to Div 3′ and have been ‘banned from Europe for 3 years’. They view these as punishments despite there being no actual ‘guilt’; proving their ‘point’, whilst overlooking or ignoring them as consequences for them going bust.

If the trading company has gone bust, not the Club why aren’t the ‘Club’ still in the SPL. What logic does Delahvnt use to explain this? Is it the punishment excuse rather than the consequence?

(of course Roger forgets that RFC are guilty, as sin, of bringing the game into disrepute, by using PAYE/NIC to fund their season)

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campsiejoePosted on10:47 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fan Club @ 22:30

Sorry to contradict you, but this has got nothing to do with corporation tax
This is all about using EBTs to deliberately avoid PAYE and NI on payments made to employees, which is where the side letters/dual contracts come into play
HMRC are arguing that these payments are contractual and are subject to PAYE & NI, and that these letters prove that, and RFC (IA) were then presented with an assessment of the amount due
RFC (IA) appealed, resulting in the FTT
In my opinion, HMRC managed to get their hands on these letters at the time of the raid on Ibrox, and that set the whole process in motion

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smallteaserPosted on10:49 pm - Aug 28, 2012


longtimelurker says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:23

Hear, Hear, agreed. As long as posts are not abusive or disrespectful they should not require moderation.

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campsiejoePosted on10:54 pm - Aug 28, 2012


smallteaser @ 22:49

In the early days of a blog, it is normally better to have fairly heavy moderation
By doing so, you send out a clear message on what is acceptable, and you can therefore set the standard
It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but you do need guidelines
By the way I am not a moderator !

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AuldheidPosted on10:55 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Itsagoal! says:

August 28, 2012 at 21:19

There was a caller to SSB late on who was moaning about the obsession of Celtic supporters with The Rangers fate. He said that The Rangers had done nothing wrong but in that statement lies the reason for so many calls pointing out the very opposite.

Now the caller was probably arguing from a legalsitic (if uninformed) aspect but what riled me as a Celtic supporter was a Rangers supporter telling me no wrong doing had taken place because no matter how he saw it I FELT wronged.

I felt wronged when reminded of the pain of the narrow league defeats in 2003 and 2005. I felt wronged by the procession of honest mistakes in 2008/09. I felt wronged by Doughiegate. I felt wronged during that time from 2009 when Celtic supporters became divided by those demanding we match Rangers spending and those saying (rightly) it was folly to do so. The Mineshafters v the Happyclappers arguments that divided The Celtic support whilst the Rangers support laughed – all of that was wrong and caused by Rangers behaviour.

It is this dismissal of feelings that angers me and I suspect so many, as if those holding those feelings do not count as human beings. Now this might be because for the first time in their existence, Rangers supporters feel the kind of pain that was a regular feature of supporting Celtic and all that matters to them right now is THEIR pain and alleviating it..

I doubt it will ever happen in my lifetime but unless there is a recognition of not only their wrongdoing but the feelings of the victims who are not Rangers supporters, then acrimony will continue to bedevil our game and surface on phone ins.

I accept Rangers supporters will be hurting but if their response is simply to deny the reality of the consequences of their behaviour on others then they will continue to be reminded of it by those on the receiving end of their wrongdoing until they recognise the depth and extent of it.

Only when they put themselves in the shoes of those wronged and appreciate how that feels is there a possibility of a change of heart.

In the meantime the universe is unfolding as it should as illustrated by something I have quoted before from The Prophet in respect of the Rangers support.

” Much of your pain is self-chosen.

It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self. “

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StanblackPosted on11:01 pm - Aug 28, 2012


They Rangers are a new club. The club formed in 1872 is in administration. Had it been the same club, then they would still be in administration.

The Rangers are paying fines they do not need to pay as part of a regan doncaster and ogilvie wheeze. The UEFA website shows that Rangers 1872 played their last game in may.

Scotland had a chance to move on and make sure that there were stipulations in place to ensure the new rangers club did not allow the worst aspects of the old club to continue. Those in charge of the game have failed the fans by bending any rule required to get the new rangers into our league.

If new rangers are the old rangers then there is the small matter of 130+ million to be paid.

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midcalderanPosted on11:03 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fan Club says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:30

The word “guilty” is too loose a term to use.
——————————————————-
“There’s nothing stranger than folk”. This site is about ranting and raving. It’s about inquiring, knowledge, fairness, transparency, accountability, fact, openness, anti-corruption etc and when you try to explain in simple terms that no one is guilty until they are found guilty, you get the TDs. It is so so easy to work out who the TDs are.

I’m not offended and I’m not off.

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midcalderanPosted on11:05 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Sorry: correction. This site is not about ranting and raving.

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Reilly1926Posted on11:15 pm - Aug 28, 2012


smallteaser says:

August 28, 2012 at 20:55

Why does Gordon Smith get any airtime whatsoever?
This is a guy who wrote in his book that there was “an agenda against Rangers”.
This was while he was CEO of the SFA.
This hardly makes him a neutral.
He was Director of Football at Rangers while Craig Whyte was in charge.
To date he has used the “no knowledge” and “I didn’t know” excuse to many questions regarding Rangers.
What makes him wanted by the media, what does he know about them that they feel the need to employ him?
=====================

Smith knows that we know that he knows more about dual contracts than he’s letting on about. When the s..t hits the fan I have no doubt that Wiggy will come down with a condition that involves memory loss.

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Fan ClubPosted on11:18 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Campsiejoe – true, to an extent. However, the corporation tax issue is if they tried to claim a deduction on contributions to the EBT. A moot point for a company that has such large tax losses anyway!! The enquiry first opened was into their corporation tax returns and the employment tax issues related to that followed as part of initial enquiry.

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goosyPosted on11:18 pm - Aug 28, 2012


If anybody was wondering why Ogilvie was preparing to exit the SFA “with dignity and a package”, the problem has been solved
He is dreading the negotiations with Green to persuade Sevco to jon the SPL2
So he is getting out with the byline that if it was up to him there is no way Sevco will skip a year in rejoinng the SPL

Some Sevco fans have already been mulling over these negotiations

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Post from another place

Should we go into the SPL 2 if asked ?
When the leagues are reconstructed , and I think we all know they will be , should Rangers go into the SPL 2 or whatever they call it if we are asked ? and if we were to go in under what conditions would we accept membership ? I am not talking about fines or sanctions , quite the opposite , what demands and assurances should Charles Green make before he accepts ,and being a hard headed businessman he will not cut off his nose to spite his face so will accept .
I think it is certain that We WILL go into a higher reconstructed league by whatever name they call it . So when we do what should we be demanding in return ? I mean the offer of european football is off the table because of eufa rules so what would you realistically ask for and expect to get ?

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midcalderanPosted on11:19 pm - Aug 28, 2012


campsiejoe says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:47

Sorry to contradict you, but this has got nothing to do with corporation tax
————————————————
campsiejoe: There is absolutely no doubt that this will have been an investigation/enquiry into a Corporation Tax return.

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Doon the slopePosted on11:19 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Some people on here seem to think that trolls or ‘diddy’ posters direct the course of the blog.

This blog runs on the quality of information posted.

When no info is forthcoming it is a good thing that people branch out into other, not unrelated areas. As soon as something juicey appears, we diddies humbly disappear.

No need to keep complaining. No need for any blunderbuss moderation.

The blog is perfectly on target, and poised.

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rabPosted on11:25 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fan Club

HMRC decided there was tax due on a scheme that rfc used to the benefit of flo and de boer, rangers agreed. No judgements pending.

Was this used to pay players a tax free sum, and should it have been included in the players contracts.

This should be dealt with seperately from the BTC. Check the contracts in question, if the players received an acknowledged benefit that is not included in those contracts, then they are guilty. No need to delay this as far as i am aware.

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WOTTPIPosted on11:25 pm - Aug 28, 2012


A final thought tonight on Campbell Ogilvie.

By all accounts, the friends I have who have met him say he is a gentleman and appears a decent guy.

However the fact remains, as others have pointed out, he failed to see the Hurricane Issac that was the RangersTaxCase heading directly towards him and while at the self same club he just signed of everything put in front of him without question.

A nice guy and a gentleman perhaps, but exposed as being totally useless in the job of a supposed top notch football administrator.

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Fan ClubPosted on11:30 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Rab @ 23.25 – I agree. Guilty probably of a football violation. Not tax evasion.

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midcalderanPosted on11:31 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Stanblack says:
August 28, 2012 at 23:01

They Rangers are a new club. ………….
————————————
Would it be too simple to say, how could “the club” register itself, join a league, play in Europe if it is just “the club”.

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AgrajagPosted on11:31 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Fan Club says:
August 28, 2012 at 19:49

James Larkin – we really are splitting hairs here as for all intents and purposes it’s the same point. Roger is technically “correct” insofar as RFC haven’t been found guilty of wrong doing concerning the EBTs. HMRC have “disagreed” with RFC’s tax treatment of EBTs but there’s nothing to find them “guilty” of yet. It’s a difference of opinion and HMRC, as they do in such situations, can issue a determination based on how they think the tax rules should apply. RFC, as they are entitled to do so, appeal these assessments for the tax HMRC think is due. Once the FTT issue their findings on the BTC then RFC will either be “guilty” or “not guilty” of improper use of EBTs at that point. So, Roger, on this occasion, is correct.

========================

I’m afraid that’s totally wrong.

HMRC are the tax collecting authority and if they issue an assessment then the tax is due. It is a legally enforceable debt. In the normal course of events the tax interest and penalties must be paid before an appeal is even allowed.

The FTT is an appeal process, nothing more and nothing less.

The tax is due, the interest is due, the penalties are due. Collection of that money has been put on hold until the FTT has ruled. Ironically that is because enforcing the debt would have caused an insolvency event.

Roger is not “technically correct”, he is totally wrong.

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john clarkePosted on11:31 pm - Aug 28, 2012


A Duck Walks Into A Bar says:
August 28, 2012 at 16:46
‘….Unfortunately, many Celtic fans cannot bring themselves to see the world through the eyes of other fans….’

—–
I think that one of the tremendously beneficial results of this and the RTC blog has been a growing awareness among the Celtic fans who read it and contribute to it, that not every football fan is at heart a ‘The Rangers’ fan.

I freely confess, now as an old man, that right up to the 1980s, I emotionally believed that Scottish football fans in general looked for their own team’s result on a Saturday, and then looked to see how Rangers had done. If their own team had won and Rangers had as well, that was a nice wee double. If their own team had won and Rangers had beaten Celtic, that was a wee treble.And so on and vice-versa.

It was when I came to live in Edinburgh that I began to see that that was not necessarily so.That football loyalties in this country are not ( in the main) determined by the sectarian divide.

My difficulty over the years, and continuing, is that I think that the SFA and the MSM , or rather, certain influential people in those areas, still work from a sectarian ( i.e.in this context, anti-catholic) motivation in their readiness to defend the wrongdoing of a particular club and contrive to protect it from the consequences of its wrongdoing.

And, of course, in doing so, as people now see, they harm the interests of every other club, and destroy the very notion that there can be fair competition and fair opportunity to develope and prosper both as businesses and as community icons.

Bringing things out into the light, however painful, and dealing with them squarely and honestly, is a prerequisite to getting us back on the right path.

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nostarsandbarredPosted on11:32 pm - Aug 28, 2012


midcalderan says:
August 28, 2012 at 22:18
2 2 Rate This

From the Justice website; “First–tier Tribunal (Tax) hears appeals against decisions relating to tax made by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC).” HMRC have made their decision. Your conversational argument is pure speculation; I’m just dealing in facts.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/tax

No comment on the SPL prima facie statement of fact ? Or do you have another hypothetical conversation to present ?

http://www.scotprem.com/content/default.asp?page=s2&newsid=11440

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Doon the slopePosted on11:33 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Midcalderan

“Its so easy to work out who the TD’s are.”
——————————————————–

A statement from the McCoistian school of philosophy? (smile)

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Fan ClubPosted on11:33 pm - Aug 28, 2012


Midcalderan @ 23.19 – you are correct. The enquiry arose due to the disclosure in the corporation tax return submitted for the relevant periods. The eventual liability relates to PAYE/NIC but there are indeed corporation tax issues in operating an EBT like this. It just so happens that in RFC’s case, the corporation tax issues weren’t in point because of the trading losses in existence anyway.

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