Many years ago, I read an article in some legal magazine or other which, to my mind, pointed out something that I had always presumed was obvious.
Namely, that unlike his English Counterpart, the Scottish solicitor is not just a drafter and processor of legal documents, he ( or she ) is a man of business who furnishes advice, and as often as not, will recommend a course of action – possibly involving many different steps or procedures- in any given situation.
Without going into an academic analysis of what this means, may I suggest that a simple definition is that the Scottish solicitor does not always simply do what they are told but will furnish the client with advice for, or against, a certain course of action.
The same applies to accountants and other professionals in my experience. When discussing any business situation, the client should always be aware of the pros and the cons. From there he or she makes a decision based on the advice given – which advice may be taken or rejected.
That is how things work.
If you think about what I have said above, then it follows that one of the principal things an adviser should do for any client, is to suggest a course of action that keeps the client out of court.
Court is a place of last resort. Litigation of any kind is expensive, brings uncertainty, is time consuming and acts as a barrier to unfettered and uninterrupted business planning, strategy and progress because no one can ever be sure of the outcome or the consequences of a court case.
In olden days, court meant choosing your champion to fight against your adversary’s champion. If your guy knocked the other guy of the horse and killed him outright with the lance then you won. It didn’t matter if your guy was also hit with your opponents lance and died a week later as a result – you were still the winner because the other guy died first.
Eventually, society did away with such courts and replaced them with courts of law and the men and women with wigs and gowns as opposed to the lance.
However, you can still win a court battle and suffer a fatal defeat as a consequence.
That is why a court of law should always be regarded as a place of last resort. No one should ever set out on a course of action which runs a high risk of ending up being disputed in court.
Sometimes, of course, a court action is inevitable. On other occasions, people adopt a course of action where the risk of things ending up in court is seen an as an acceptable risk.
This morning’s Daily Record ( and indeed yesterday’s edition ) is spouting David Murray’s mantra that HMRC knifed Rangers but adds there are no winners here. How very MSM. How very lacking in business understanding or searching for the truth.
So, let me explain something.
When you sit down with a firm of accountants who specialise in aggressive tax avoidance schemes such as an EBT scheme or a DOS scheme, one of the things that are spelt out to you is that the scheme you are about to embark upon may well be, indeed is likely to be, challenged in a court of law. Especially if you do not administer it to the letter.
Often as not, the client will be asked to sign up to a contract which specifies that the client will pay hefty fees to lawyers and accountants for setting up the scheme and that fee will include a contribution towards legal fees arising in the event of a legal challenge to the scheme.
That is stipulated at the very outset. You pay £x in advance because you know you are likely to be sued. You also get the benefit of advice which is designed to ensure that your scheme is absolutely watertight in terms of the law, but crucially, there is a rider which states that in the event that the court rules against you then the accountants or lawyers will not be held accountable as you are entering into the whole process knowing that there is a big risk of litigation – and you are told in writing that while you shouldn’t lose, you might lose.
This too is the way it works.
The business advisers will not want litigation, but from the outset they will cover their backs and make it plain to the client that if you sign on the dotted line for an aggressive tax avoidance scheme then you can expect HMRC to take you to court.
Accordingly, the protestations screaming out from the Daily Record this morning about how HMRC killed Rangers are balderdash and bunkum of the highest order.
HMRC did not knife Rangers, they did exactly what was expected of them in the circumstances and the people at MIH knew that the day they started off on any one of their tax avoidance schemes.
Taking the risk in the first place killed Rangers or Rangers PLC if you prefer.
However, the events of yesterday and the day before throw up some other matters worth considering and remembering.
The first is the woeful state of the Rangers accounts by 2005 when there had been yet another share issue underwritten by David Murray. Those accounts showed Rangers PLC to be in a shocking financial state, despite all the rhetoric and dressing from the Directors and the Accountants.
More or less immediately Murray chose to put the club up for sale as it was obvious that the financial traincrash could simply not continue.
However, despite years of searching no buyer could be found.
Further, it should also be remembered that Rangers PLC knew all about the small tax case long before Craig Whyte came along. Those liabilities stemmed from around 2001 but at no time during the Murray era at Ibrox did Sir David put aside the money to pay a bill which no one at Rangers disputed as being due at any time.
Whyte stressed the need for this to be paid long before he ever got the keys to the Marble Staircase, but it wasn’t and there can be only one of two reasons for that.
Either Sir David just didn’t pay the bill concerned ….. or he couldn’t!
The fact is that long before Craig Whyte appeared David Murray could have paid that bill or reached an agreement to pay that bill. However he didn’t and for a period of several years he simply decided he wanted out …. Needed out ….. at any cost!
There is no doubt that he gambled hard and fast with Rangers Football Club, and their finances and their supporters loyalties. He knew , or ought to have known, well in advance that a prolonged and regularly used aggressive tax avoidance scheme, legal or not, was bound to attract the adverse interest and attention of HMRC.
Sir David Murray has been lauded up and down the country for his so called business acumen and business knowledge. He was knighted for the same and received all sorts of unprecedented backing from banks and other institutions.
Does anyone reading this really believe that such a man did not have the foresight, or the advisers around him who had the foresight, to see and know that a large and prolonged dispute with the revenue authorities may well have an adverse effect on the viability and sellability of his business?
Such a suggestion is simply not credible.
Further when the HMRC interest came, Murray’s men, if not Murray himself, did their very best to try and hide the existence of the scheme, the documents surrounding the scheme, the details of the scheme and the intention of the scheme.
They hid all this away from HMRC, The SFA, The SPL and anyone else in authority, with the result that those authorities and bodies had no option but to run to the courts, set up tribunals and convene formal hearings.
When someone does not tell you the truth, starts hiding documents and obfuscating that is the way it works.
However, that is not all that yesterday brought.
The news that Collier Bristow have apparently agreed ( through their insurers no doubt ) to pay the liquidator of Rangers some £20M shows that taking into account the litigation risk, someone somewhere thought it worth making a payment to make a bad situation go away.
Imagine that? What bad situation could that be?
Would it be that somehow or other, creditors, officials and all sorts of other people were misled by a leading firm of solicitors in relation to the affairs of Rangers PLC? Could it really be the case that things were so bad financially at Ibrox, that the only way for even Whyte to be able to get the sale to go through at the princely sum of £1 plus the official bank debt was to have his people mislead funders and eventual creditors?
What does that say about David Murray’s stewardship and the absolute urgent need to get Lloyds TSB out of the picture? Was there really no one else or no other way to take on the debts of Rangers PLC? Apparently not — and that can only be because someone chose to gamble with the finances of the club and leave it in a precarious state.
I am told that when Lloyds took over that account they expressed amazement at how MIH and Rangers PLC were allowed to run up the debts they had with HBOS. Apparently there was incredulity at some of the figures and covenants.
So , when we read in the Record this morning that the HMRC Big Tax case inadvertently brought down Rangers it is very easy to overlook the debt due to the bank, how it arose, the sums due to the same bank through MIH, the extent of the sums due, the banks attitude and the possible attitude and course of action had Whyte not taken them away.
Remember that the same bank stepped straight into MIH and began selling off its assets, and that low and behold the same management team who engineered the EBT scheme have openly admitted that there is an unexplained shortfall in the employees’ pension scheme of over £20 Million.
Do you think the employees who have lost out on pension provision are the slightest concerned about whether the tax avoidance scheme funds and their use are legal or not ? – or do you think they might argue that the money used for these so called “discretionary payments” should have been used to fund a proper legally constituted pension scheme which the company and its directors undertook to pay into under contract?
There is still substantial debt due to Lloyds by MIH and part of that debt is the amount by which David Murray and MIH underwrote and guaranteed that last share issue of Rangers PLC in 2004/2005. The principal sum due under that guarantee ( excluding interest and charges ) was greater than the principal sum claimed by HMRC in the big tax case.
Go figure.
However, this saga is far from over especially with regard to “contractually due” severance payments which look as if they will come back to the FTT in the event of the parties concerned not reaching agreement on the tax allegedly due.
Now, this is interesting because apparently there are a number of documents in existence which show that certain players received a payment of £x at the end of their contract as part of a severance deal.
At the time these were made, my recollection is that under normal severance agreement legislation the first £30,000 would be tax free but after that any sums were taxable.
The FTT has never been asked to rule on these payments, and has never heard any evidence about the legality or otherwise of paying these sums gross of tax into an offshore trust. All of that may yet be to come.
However, the most interesting part of this for me is that further court action may be taken in relation to these matters failing agreement between HMRC… and whom?
Rangers PLC ( the employer ) is in Liquidation so perhaps HMRC might claim some of the money from the Liquidator who has just received the £20M from Collier Bristow – then again it could well be that Ticketus have something to say about that.
In his last statement about MIH, David Murray openly proclaimed that the company was all but finished and revealed the pension shortfall and so on – so I doubt if any agreement of any meaning will be reached there.
That then leaves those who supposedly benefited from the contractually due severance payments – namely the players.
Maybe, in the absence of a now defunct employer, they will be asked to cough up the tax.
No doubt they will all go and consult their lawyers and accountants – the men and woman of business – who will give them their best advice – but you can bet your bottom dollar that any such advice will include a paragraph or ten which starts something along the lines of “ However, here is the potential risk in the event of you deciding to …………. “
That is the way it works……. And always has done.
A wee shout out to the organisers of the games, I thought the opening ceremony was excellent, happy, sad, cheesy, colourful, inspiring and I would have to add majestic for HRH. I would have never thought for a minute they would have opened with Karen ‘individual fruit trifle’ Dunbar, but it worked after the initial shock of the first few minutes… 😀
Here’s to a great games, a great spectacle to the rest of the world and a boost to Scotland in many ways..
JimBhoy says:
July 24, 2014 at 3:13 pm
@MCFC So they will be letting Lewis McLeod go next season then, he will be 21 so a prime target as they look to re-sign Bocanegra on a free…
===========================
only if he TUPEs over first 🙂
Jimbhoy,
Agree with everything you said about the organisers etc and I thought it was all fantastic fun.
The stadium backdrop looked magnificent and put the city in a very positive light, in my opinion.
Keeping it footie related I had quick keek (keeK, I said!) in the Den to see how it was being viewed by them.
Virtually to 100% they were anti the whole CG shindig and thought the followers of CFC would be raging about Her Maj being inside their pit of a stadium plus the red white and blue of the fly past. They even claimed to have an ‘insider’ on the committee who arranged for all the lights to be blue!
Meanwhile, in the interests of balance, over on CQN virtually 100% were very positive about the whole show and loved how it would look to a world wide audience and welcomed everyone to Celtic Park.
Go figure?
However the really big news out of Glasgow is this.
Just returned from a few days up home and was in town on Tuesday.
The place was pure buzzin.
However, popped into the Horseshoe Bar for some cold beer and pie and peas.
Disaster!
They no longer use steeped peas but now chuck on a dollop of tinned, mushy peas which has a nasty luminous green colour and metallic taste
That should merit a whole blog if it’s own on TSFM!
Who’s going to start the petition?
mcfc says:
July 24, 2014 at 1:50 pm
How Sad and Desperate is This ?
Like Signing A New Player http://www.newsnow.co.uk/A/724994704?-11344:801
As The Rangers target Scott Allen is reported to be going to Easter Road, Andrew Dickson counters on the The Rangers website and newsfeed with Ally saying Lewis Macleod’s return from injury is like signing a new player. What? Squeeze the other one !!!!
====================================
Kenny McDowall said to the media last year Lewis Macleod is better for his age than Aiden McGeady was at the same stage. Aside from this being a very slanted view that went unchallenged, Macleod has played against the square root of hee-haw in terms of quality opposition, but why should that get in the way of a manufactured GIRUY to someone from ‘the other side?’
In fairness RFC have not had the opposition to challenge him yet but if you get a chance to see Nicky Law’s goal in the 1-0 ‘demolition’ of Ottowa Fury, Lewis McLeod has a lovely bit of football leading to the goal. He most certainly has some talent.
@Upthehoops TBH mate I hope he becomes a superstar… Scottish football needs to give youth a chance… Check out the Darnell Fisher story.. We played Jimmy Johnstone academy at the rangers international youth tournament last weekend.. Same age he was when Celtic got him…
@Mungoboy me and missus JB hit the byre in EK yesterday and their peas were fresh from the pod with my Caledonian chicken.. Serving a lot of good Scottish beer also that missus JB enjoyed.. Me being the designated driver..
@Jimbhoy
Maybe we should stop this old peas/new peas debate before it gets out of hand.
It could always be discussed in a ‘pod’cast.
Perhaps I should have done a Neville Chamberlain and marched down Drury St waving a piece of paper declaring ‘Peas in our time’.
If I had a coat in this heat I’d go and get it!
@Mungoboy Nice one, don’t want to get all mushy but miss my peas fritter from my time in Engerlund.. Scottish football needs more pea dishes, my uncle wouldn’t eat them ‘cos they were green.. Honestly, however he did teach me to heid a baw..
mcfc says:
July 24, 2014 at 12:54 pm
90 Day Update
Today is 90 days since highlights of the 120 (sic) day review were released.
How is it going Graham?
Rangers Int F.C. PLC
Business Review and Strategic Plan Update.
25th April 2014
Future Strategy.
1.Developing Football Performance and Capability…………..Looks like a fail.
2.Focus on Player Asset Management and Youth Development……..Looks like a fail.
3. Re-connecting effectively to our local and Global fan Base………..Looks like a fail.
4.Developing Best in class commercial and operational capability………..?
5.Strengthening commitment to our communities……….?
GW may need another 127 days;-)
mungoboy/JimBhoy, thanks for the laugh,it is madness that a colour should bring out the worst in people.
Not on the Business Review and Strategic Plan, but any announcement that the investors’ loans have been repaid ……….Looks like a fail
mungoboy says:
July 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm
‘. a dollop of tinned, mushy peas which has a nasty luminous green colour and metallic taste……Who’s going to start the petition?’
———–
Don’t know about a petition, mungoboy, but I can feel an email coming on! 😀 Changing the fare in The Horseshoe Bar! Has there been a change of owner/management in recent times?
scottc says:
July 24, 2014 at 5:32 pm
In fairness RFC have not had the opposition to challenge him yet but if you get a chance to see Nicky Law’s goal in the 1-0 ‘demolition’ of Ottowa Fury, Lewis McLeod has a lovely bit of football leading to the goal. He most certainly has some talent.
=======================
Fair enough. It’s not the young lad’s fault if people want to over-hype him at this stage. I do believe he needs to do it against better opposition, and if he’s not had that opportunity then Rangers should hold fire on the type of hype which has caused this debate in the first place.
I do remember the quite incredible and inexplicable promoting of John Fleck as a superstar. Many journalists were demanding he be picked for the senior Scotland squad, and with respect the lad is really not that good, achieving nothing of note with Rangers. I guess nothing to do with that club is ever treated the same as it is with other clubs.
Well done Aberdeen. What a superb result tonight in Holland.
Well done Aberdeen!
Can’t argue with that.
That’s Aberdeen through, St Johnstone ahead and Motherwell just started.
StevieBC says:
July 23, 2014 at 4:16 pm
“And moving slightly OT – remember when we had a brief debate recently about whether a professional player should be ‘two footed’ ?”
——————————————-
I’d like to take credit for that fragile thread of conversation. Two footedness should be the second entry in the coaching manual.
Entry no.1 : Association football is played with an inflatable ball of prescribed dimensions.
No.2 : A football player has two feet. One is called the left foot and one is called the right foot. Inability to use both of these utensils will degrade your capability by 30% and almost certainly render you ineligible to attain the upper echelons of the game.
As was said at the time, there have been a handful of supremely gifted players for which the possession of one foot and a wooden leg would have had but a mild impact on their ability. These guys are so few and far between however as not to warrant significant consideration.
Showing a striker onto his weaker foot can completely neutralise his effectiveness in many cases. Even limited two footedness places the opponent in doubt as to how the ball is going to played and buys a bit of space. I reckon a team of talented two footed players could prove a match for a team of gifted players that had a heavy preference for just the one foot.
In sports like cycling an idealogy evolved around the fact that it was not possible to improve a competitors performance by 100%. So instead enlightened coaches came upon the idea of improving 100 things by 1%. So the helmets changed, the handlebars, the tyres etc; all by just degrees of improvement. I was watching coverage from the velodrome today and the fundamental technique has not changed that much down through the years but the equipment is space age in comparison.
Not to instill two footedness at an early stage in a child’s development to me seems a massive missed opportunity. Even if the kids never become serious and only like to enjoy a kickabout, this one element alone would enhance their experience immensely. Once it became commonplace it might become part of the culture and open up new moves and possibilities. What it does to improve balance alone would make it worthwhile.
You could extend this even further into other sports. What about a golfer, finding himself in a tricky lie, who is able to use the opposite hand to play his shot. The tennis player who can seamlessly transfer the racket from hand to hand. The possibilities are not wanting.
Beyond balance I think it does something to brain co-ordination. Having the ability to look at a situation from more than one angle would in actuality widen a sportsperson’s perspective. The way the brain operates, its different hemisphere’s demark into different physical duty. If the brain could be balanced up I think overall performance would benefit.
There must be a reason why a natural bias exists in handedness but if you look at the like of a concert pianist or even a skilled typist, its if manifestly possibly to overcome the instinctual default.
Playing golf ‘wrong’ handed is difficult though because the clubs are also built ‘one’ handed. It’s not impossible but awkward
John Clark says:
July 24, 2014 at 8:15 pm
mungoboy says:
July 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm
‘. a dollop of tinned, mushy peas which has a nasty luminous green colour and metallic taste……Who’s going to start the petition?’
———–
Don’t know about a petition, mungoboy, but I can feel an email coming on! 😀 Changing the fare in The Horseshoe Bar! Has there been a change of owner/management in recent times?
————————————————————————————————————
Apparently they Two Pea’d over……
Scottish Football needs a strong Pea-terhead.
@JC
Gratifying the the King of emailers is on the case.
No longer living in the Dear ‘Green’ Place so don’t know of a change in ownership.
Think some numpty decided it was a cheaper, easier option.
Steeping the peas takes time.
To hell with what the customer thinks and hang tradition.
If your email gets no joy we can always get up a peatition.
Great result for the Dons tonight.
Well done!
Thanks to a link posted on here (I forget who by) I stumbled across a couple of gems on ibroxnoise. Curiously, there has been not vitriolic backlash. Is the message beginning to get through…?!
”
Anonymous24 July 2014 03:04
Imagine, if you will, paying Bill of See-thru Window Co. £3,500 to come and put new windows in your house. Bill ‘phones on Monday morning and says he won’t be coming as, unfortunately, he’s gone bust, terribly sorry old chap. Tuesday morning sees Bill roll up in his van but park next door whereupon he begins installing new windows. Feeling somewhat aggrieved you challenge Bill to fit your windows or give you the money back. “Oh no” says Bill, “That was nothing to do with us, that was See-Thru Window Co. We are The See-thru Window Co. And actually, it’s your fault this happened.” Then Bill gets very nasty and aggresive blaming all of his troubles on you.
I imagine you wouldn’t be very pleased. I imagine all the people that were due money or services from Bill wouldn’t be very pleased. If Bill was to show some regret or contrition or even try and remedy the situation in some way it might help heal the wounds. But instead Bill blames all and sundry …
I suspect that the majority of readers of this will assume I’m a timmy rangers hater. I’m not. I’m a pissed off, hard-working, tax-paying, home-owning Scotland fan. I was brought up to know the difference between right and wrong, good and bad. I can’t think of many things more shameful than being publicly outed as unable to pay my way or debts as due. I believe this was the way most Scots were brought up in the Kirk. Scots were tight, they were frugal but they were honest and dependable.
To be crowing about dumping debt and shafting creditors is shameful despicable and embarrassing. (As is singing songs glorifying the bombing of innocent women and children for any on-looking plastic Paddys.). If the keyboard warriors who are reading this truly believe that their club has done nothing wrong and is in fact the victim, then you are deluded bordering on psychotic and as a race we may as well switch off the lights.
WATP?? Well it certainly isn’t WE ARE TAX PAYERS (and before you all jump up in unison crying “Not Guilty”, think wee tax case, think PAYE, think NIC – those are irrefutable facts but most of you (both sides) find it difficult to deal with facts) ”
😎
I’m very aware of the Commonwealth Games. Does this however mean that (other than the Dandy Dons, congratulations!) the BBC website cannot be updated with scores…?!
Or perhaps it’s just my connection?
SORT IT OUT BBC! 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 :slamb: 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡 😡
Final thoughts on Uefa coefficients.
To show how blatantly biased the system is , if Celtic had got to the final of the Champions League in each of the last 2 seasons, they would still have had to start at exactly the same stage in the competition as the did this year.
The system is mathematically rigged in favour of England Spain Germany and Italy
(Crass comment alert…)
Barca’, whereas if TRFC had gotten to the final the last two years the SMSM would be demanding they got to keep the cup…
:slamb: :slamb: :slamb: :slamb: :slamb: :slamb: :slamb:
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
Well done St Johnstone. 5 pens scored out of 5 to progress! Just need Motherwell to pull it off now.
2 up for Scotland tonight.Waiting on Motherwell for a full house.Extra time there.
Congrats the Dons, & Saints, c’mon the ‘Well! Cheers chaps, good job I’m not wholly dependant upon the BBC! 😡
Considering it’s the Apocalypse of Scottish fitba, 3 out of 4 Euro ties won isnae three bad.
twopanda says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:22 pm
3 5 Rate This
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
————
It is shameful , but what does it have to do with this blog. What are you hoping to achieve by posting it ?
Barcabhoy says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:12 pm
5 0 Rate This
twopanda says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:22 pm
3 5 Rate This
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
————
It is shameful , but what does it have to do with this blog. What are you hoping to achieve by posting it ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would hope that it would shame those responsible. I don’t imagine it will, but we should never shy away from shining a light on idiots such as these. We (and I include myself here) are happy to highlight the shameful element of the Ibrox support, so we should do the same with our own.
mungoboy says:
July 24, 2014 at 5:08 pm
19 4 Rate This
Just returned from a few days up home and was in town on Tuesday.
The place was pure buzzin.
However, popped into the Horseshoe Bar for some cold beer and pie and peas.
Disaster!
They no longer use steeped peas but now chuck on a dollop of tinned, mushy peas which has a nasty luminous green colour and metallic taste
That should merit a whole blog if it’s own on TSFM!
Who’s going to start the petition?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I must admit that I’ve never been very impressed by The Horseshoe.
It reminds me of the reputation that ‘Diggers’ used to have in Gorgie (ie undeserved).
There are far better pubs that The Horseshoe. I’m sure that Glasgow has them. I know Edinburgh does (many, many more!).
mungoboy says:
July 24, 2014 at 8:56 pm
‘..Think some numpty decided it was a cheaper, easier option.
Steeping the peas takes time.’
———–
Mitchells and Butlers plc [ isn’t it great the way we’ve all learned, thanks to this blog, how to track down which companies own which other companies ?] who own the Horseshoe bars all over the feckin place , are very shy about giving an email address, either for a particular pub or for their head office in Birmingham.
I find that so bloody irritating that I almost instinctively think their directors must be of the same stamp as the directors of , say, an ailing football club: prone to deceive and dissemble and make it difficult for people to find the truth or question them or their actions.
I shall have to snail mail them about the tinned peas in the Drury St Horseshoe.I may be gone some time! 😀
causaludendi says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:54 pm
.Congrats the Dons, & Saints, c’mon the ‘Well! Cheers chaps, good job I’m not wholly dependant upon the BBC! ‘
———-
I add my congrats to Aberdeen and St J, and appreciate the splendid effort by M’well.
As for the CGs and the BBC, am I the only one to feel not surprised but still annoyed at how much of the interview time after the swimming final was devoted to the English BRONZE medalist by the English interviewer, who was ( they can’t help themselves, can they?) in a hurry to get to him after the most off-hand and perfunctory few words with Jamieson and Murdoch?
BBC England sports reporting of the CGs has only one small thing in its favour-it puts our BBC Scotland sports people in the same proper colonial, subordinate, lackey place as their political reporting people! And they meekly and grovellingly accept that second rate status.
Not to get political, but it annoys me.
Lord Wobbly says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:45 pm
‘…I must admit that I’ve never been very impressed by The Horseshoe. .’
———–
Your Lordship, if I may make so bold and with the greatest respect, is perhaps ignoring the fact that for any man of a certain generation, the pubs that his own father and his friends held dear are held equally as dear by him.
There are, if your Lordship will permit the expression, one or two labouring men’s howffs that have a place in my affections not because of any intrinsic quality of ambience, but because my old man drank in them -as moderately, of course as your Lordship does!- from time to time , when he was a young man in the run-up to the second world war, and to a lesser extent when he returned from that war, badly disabled.
Not that the Horseshoe is what one might call a howff in any pejorative sense, but my old man drank in it, and ( I’ll need to check with my brother) may even have worked in it pre-war.That makes it a special place for me.And quite possibly for a few others of my generation who might occasionally post on this blog.
And there will those of my generation who frequent the Athletic Arms with similar connections!
Barcabhoy says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:00 pm
Totally agree with all you say re the co-efficient etc.
It really is annoying when the bigger clubs try and skew things to ensure they stay top of the pile and get things their own way.
11-1 voting system anyone?
All this talk of the Horseshoe Bar. It used to be a meeting place for me in the days I traveled to the football by train in the 90’s. Those were the days Fergus McCann gave you a free rail travel pass along with your season ticket, allowing you to travel from anywhere within the Strathclyde Transport travel boundary to Celtic Park, and indeed away games or neutral venues within the region. It was an incredible deal and I remain baffled why there was no positive publicity given to it in the media. My conclusion is it was the wrong club who were giving out the deal. Had it been initiated by David Murray, would there have been a media silence?
Seems I started something given the nightowler’s comments about the Horseshoe Bar.
Don’t wish to turn TSFM into the Good Pub Guide it’s just the venue of choice to meet up with family as we all live outside the city and it’s a handy central venue for us with buses and trains etc.
After 44 years of living away from Glasgow, I’m sure there are good/better pubs but I don’t know them being stuck in my own time warp when the city was in black and white.
My point was not the venue but the desecration of a quasi national dish, namely pie and peas.
Not sure that M&B are behind it, JC(e). They have a particular range of beers and can’t think they featured on the taps.
Whoever it is deserves lynching for tampering with part of our staple diet.
They’ll be using tempura on our Mars Bars next!
twopanda says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:22 pm
3 5 Rate This
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
=========================================
It is shameful I agree, but where does this blog want to go? A couple of weeks back in Belfast there was some quite incredible scenes in terms of effigies being burned on bonfires, by people wearing Rangers strips. Should that have been discussed here? Personally I don’t think so because it is far away from the aims of the forum. As far as I recall no-one on this forum has ever tried to depict every Celtic fan as an angel, so it seems strange why you lifted this single story and posted it on here. I would also like to add I see frequent posts on here stating the number of decent Rangers fans there are. I think every group of fans has good and bad. Whether it is equal in percentage over every group will forever be open to debate, but will never be concluded.
The SMSM coverage of the European ties has been really poor. Not sure if part of the issue is because these games are seen as just qualifiers when in fact the teams have already qualified and the games deserve to be treated and covered as proper cup ties where progression is so important not just for the clubs but Scottish football as a whole. I’m sure there would have been plenty of wailing if none of the teams had progressed.
The report from the Aberdeen game on the BBC site states that,
After weathering the early storm the Dons found themselves in front.
A second arrived shortly after when Rooney found himself goal side
So no need for tactics just be good at finding things.
Here’s hoping the three remaining teams continue to find themselves in Europe
Jim Spence posted this on Twitter this morning following the reported sale of Andy Robertson to Hull:
Jim Spence @bbcjimspence · 1h
Dundee Utd now have no financial obligations to anyone a source at the club tells me. Effectively they are debt free.
Mixed feelings. Really sorry to see a young talent like Robertson go but hope he continues an amazing upwards trajectory with Hull. As for United being debt free, Armageddon, the gift that keeps on giving!
On UEFA co-efficient,
Its funny though as its an ill wind. Potentially the (presumably) chosen ones in Real Sociedad are going to be going cold (possibly even first competitive match??) into a tie against an Aberdeen team on a wee streak. I can’t imagine that’s how it was planned, but I’m all for it. I also noticed some comment earlier about Aberdeen’s history somehow outgunning StJ and Hull City’s. Aberdeen didn’t win the Scottish cup and they didn’t come runner up to a CL qualifier in the FA cup either. Careful not to denigrate the cup competitions too much. I do agree with the wider point about a country’s clubs relative to one another though.
On the twitter stuff, (and again with a nod to the simple fact we all have our share of numpties). Apologies now for off topic.
I am continually reminded of a presentation I once attended on behalf of a parents group. The policeman giving it was showing us material he gives to kids in a presentation about the dangers of the net. He got one of our group to draw graffiti on a flipchart (it would have been the wall but see later). Our contribution was fairly plain (a flower I think) but I can only imagine what the 12 yo ‘volunteer’ would have come up with. Actually I know exactly what the 12yo would have come up with! He then got us to sign it. Message 1. Why would you put graffiti, especially abusive graffiti, on a wall and then sign it with your name and address, yet that is exactly what users of facebook and twitter do. The second message was brilliant. He tore off the top sheet with the graffiti and as the light (turned out it was some special UV thing) hit the second blank sheet up came the flower complete with name and address of the perpetrator once more. This was obviously to demonstrate that hitting the delete button had no effect, it just kept coming back again and again. Brilliant simple effective message.
Pseudo rant over. Apologies to the IT buffs who will probably laugh at the above simplicity but it certainly worked for me. In fact, if you are laughing, I recall message 3. I remember that was the message the guy left us all with. It is incredible to see how confident the kids are (and this was maybe 4 years ago now) in using it because they know how it works, in (in thankfully most cases blissful ignorance) of how it REALLY works.
Apologies. Back to football. Well done again StJ and AFC.
Taysider says:
July 25, 2014 at 10:23 am
Mixed feelings. Really sorry to see a young talent like Robertson go but hope he continues an amazing upwards trajectory with Hull. As for United being debt free, Armageddon, the gift that keeps on giving!
==================================
Obviously you will have mixed feelings but your club appears to be in good hands. Right now the develop and sell on for profit policy is what Scottish clubs have to do, including my own club, Celtic. Hats off to Stephen Thompson though. I was one of those who thought he was grandstanding a to a degree when he spoke of not selling these youngsters unless he got a really good fee, and now he’s done it twice. He never spoke of fees which he knew he would never get, and in fact never spoke of any fee. Now he has two excellent fees though and it has put his club on a really level footing.
upthehoops says:
July 25, 2014 at 2:00 pm
Obviously you will have mixed feelings but your club appears to be in good hands. Right now the develop and sell on for profit policy is what Scottish clubs have to do, including my own club, Celtic. Hats off to Stephen Thompson though…
————–
UTH
Yes mixed feelings but you’ll get no argument from me in respect of Stephen Thompson. Scottish football has gone through some choppy waters these last few years, with events such as the TRFC saga and before that the financial downturn and linked to it, the demise of Setanta. To emerge from that period with the club on a far stronger financial footing (by getting debt down the right way) and winning plaudits for some fine attacking performances in the process is a tremendous achievement and one most Arabs would be happy to give ST a huge amount of credit for. I for one hope he continues to steer our ship for many years to come.
3 outta 4 in European competition and a close one on the 4th, loving this armageddon.. Hopefully more success in Europe this year so that Regan and Doncaster can claim the glory… They deserve that of course.
I took a long sunny stroll along the River Clyde toward the East End on Wednesday afternoon to sample the pre-opening ceremony atmosphere around Celtic Park. I had taken a similar sojourn over a year ago and had witnessed works in progress en route so I was curious concerning the transformation that had taken place.
I would not wish to denigrate the efforts made by those concerned in the public works there but the impression I had gained from the extravagant claims concerning alleged state aid led me to believe that I would be plunging into a halcyon metropolis. The Emirates Arena building opposite Celtic Park is an impressive and imposing edifice. There is a lot of new expansive roadway. There is a fair bit of new housing, some of which is currently in use as the athletes village. However rumours of a suburban nirvana are I’m afraid much overstated.
The new houses will indeed afford habitable accommodation on a par that would be found in any quality regeneration programme. The roadways will offer significantly better access to an area that does not have a motorway in the immediate vicinity. The new sporting facilities will indeed offer additional amenity to the local population. Taken as a whole it is a good start but there are many gaps resultant from the old industrial heritage that remain to be addressed.
Contrasting this with the panoramic views from the BBC studios of the Clyde surrounding Pacific Quay and I’m afraid any state aid claims are patently rubbish. There is a clutch of landmark buildings within a five minute drive of Ibrox and yet I have never heard a whisper from anyone that somehow this area was being given preferential treatment. Quite the reverse, everyone seemed to applaud the transformation of a rundown area of the city into a district in which one could take at least a little pride.
The mean spiritedness of those that would denigrate East-Enders for having the audacity to take possession of a reasonable standard of housing, decent transport links and local sporting amenities is an affront.
It appears that the weather gods have visited their wrath upon these curmudgeons by bequeathing a spell of sunny aspect that no amount of bribery could ever procure. The Commonwealth Games are going to be a fantastic success for the city of Glasgow and for Scotland in general. Those that lined up to detract from the game’s organiser’s efforts are bound to find themselves on the wrong side of history.
Plus ca change plus c’est la meme chose.
I’m off for a long run on my bicycle now that the temperature has cooled to boiling point.
• JIMBHOY says:
July 25, 2014 at 4:19 pm
3 outta 4 in European competition and a close one on the 4th, loving this armageddon.. Hopefully more success in Europe this year so that Regan and Doncaster can claim the glory… They deserve that of course.
—————————————————————————————-
With the attendances and atmosphere at these games I’m sure they must be all over potential sponsors and TV complanies………
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=12030650
PHILIP NASH has been appointed to the Board of Rangers (“Board”) with immediate effect.
Mr Nash has acted as Consultant to the Club since January 2014, initially to assist the Board with undertaking the Business Review announced on 25 April 2014 and subsequently on financial and operational matters.
His role has expanded such that the Board believes that it is appropriate for Mr Nash to serve as a Director of the Company. It is not currently envisaged that he will remain with the Company on a permanent basis.
Mr Nash, aged 42, was a senior executive at Arsenal FC from 2001 to 2008 and then joined Liverpool FC as Chief Financial Officer, serving as a board director for three of his five years at the club. At Arsenal he delivered the financial strategy surrounding the club’s relocation from Highbury to the Emirates Stadium and during his tenure at Anfield he played a leading role in both safeguarding the financial stability of the football club and its subsequent growth.
He began his career in accountancy at Kidsons Impey in 1993 before joining merchant banker Hambros four years later.
———————————————–
I don’t know what the reasoning for this appointment is, unless it is to see them through any share issue, given they have stated that it’s not a long term appointment.
There is also a reference in the AIM announcement that he holds an interest in 0.27% of shares. That equates to around 177K shares.
easyJambo says:
July 25, 2014 at 5:30 pm
1 0 Rate This
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/news/market-news/market-news-detail.html?announcementId=12030650
PHILIP NASH has been appointed to the Board of Rangers (“Board”) with immediate effect.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I don’t know what the reasoning for this appointment is, unless it is to see them through any share issue, given they have stated that it’s not a long term appointment.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Why does there have to be a reason that`s remotely connected with running a business?
The guy`s a Spiv appointed by a Spiv Board to do Spiv work
Therefore the only reason they have put Nash on the board is to facilitate more Spivery
And of course
To award him him freebie options at the expense of the Gullible
easyJambo says:
July 25, 2014 at 5:30 pm
I wonder if this appointment is to lend support to Wallace in the boardroom, or could it be to allow Nash to speak for RIFC when trying to get funding from the City? It could perhaps be that he’s found an investor who would only be prepared to invest/lend if Nash has some power to represent him there. It seems to me quite interesting that, with the next pressure point (wages day) approaching within the next week, a ‘non-Rangersman’ is appointed to the board. A man with a purely business head who is probably the only one with the respect and contacts in the City to find much needed funds, or, alternatively, having exhausted that avenue, a much needed ally for Wallace who has some hard and unpopular decisions to make and push through to help keep the company afloat. Purely conjecture on a quiet day, of course. Where’s Phil’s mole when we need him/her?
@CLIFFHANGER Sponsors will be queuing up but the honourable duo will get their 200k for setting up any new deals…
Picked this information from another site (jamboskickback). It’s apparently from the announcement on AIM and lists Nash’s current directorships. It would appear he’s been around a bit longer than was thought, and, possibly/probably involved with Charles Green since before Nash became publicly involved with RIFC, as I’m sure Green was one of the masterminds behind Rangers Retail and Garrion Security. (Not sure if this is new news or old 😳 ). Maybe he’s a spiv after all
Lingur Consulting Limited
Rangers Retail Limited
Garrion Security Limited
The Rangers Football club Limited (formerly known as Sevco Scotland Limited)
Barcabhoy says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:12 pm
twopanda says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:22 p
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
————
It is shameful , but what does it have to do with this blog. What are you hoping to achieve by posting it ?
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
While I agree this is not the place for this type of stuff, if it had been posted about Rangers fans doing something similar it would have been given 100 plus thumbs up followed by posts about how it summarises the entire rangers support.
Fact is it was about celtic fans and regardless of its suitability for posting here it was disgraceful behaviour and deserves to be condemned imo.
Allyjambo says: July 25, 2014 at 6:23 pm
He only became a director of Garrion in March and Rangers Retail in April.
Of more interest is whether or not he bought his 177K shares or was given them as a bonus.
easyJambo says:
July 25, 2014 at 6:31 pm
Thanks for the info.
‘Of more interest is whether or not he bought his 177K shares or was given them as a bonus.’
Of even more interest would be whether or not they were bought on the market, or are new shares, thus reducing the shares available for the rights issue, even further. Even added to Stockbridge’s exercised option they don’t amount to much, but these things just seem to keep on happening.
I was musing yesterday that it’s been quite some time since we’ve heard any genuinely good news (other than the signings) from Ibrox, and not even any jingoistic PR nonsense either. I can’t see this being good news, at least from a footballing perspective, and is, at best, an indication that Wallace is getting more power to run the company (RIFC) as it should be run.
Taysider says:
July 25, 2014 at 3:28 pm To emerge from that period with the club on a far stronger financial footing (by getting debt down the right way) and winning plaudits for some fine attacking performances in the process is a tremendous achievement
————————————————————————-
What is particularly heartening is the generally positive reaction on message boards etc given that the club has just sold two of its most promising players….little moaning and lots of realism.
ST sales up on last year too.
The trick now is to consistently turn in break even financial results without the need for exceptionals (cup runs, player sales etc) and to bank some monies (as and when they come in) for a rainy day (which, sooner or later, there will be).
spanishcelt says:
July 25, 2014 at 6:26 pm
20 7 Rate This
Barcabhoy says:
July 24, 2014 at 11:12 pm
twopanda says:
July 24, 2014 at 10:22 p
http://therangersreport.com/2014/07/24/celtic-troll-hurls-vile-insults-at-colin-hendrys-late-wife-on-twitter/
Factual – No excuse – Shaming IMO
————
It is shameful , but what does it have to do with this blog. What are you hoping to achieve by posting it ?
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
While I agree this is not the place for this type of stuff, if it had been posted about Rangers fans doing something similar it would have been given 100 plus thumbs up followed by posts about how it summarises the entire rangers support.
Fact is it was about celtic fans and regardless of its suitability for posting here it was disgraceful behaviour and deserves to be condemned imo.
——————————-
I’ll tell you why i think it doesn’t belong on here. This type of behaviour is becoming increasingly common. There isn’t an hour goes by , far less a day, without some halfwit demonstrating that free access to public forums , such as twitter, will result in anti social behaviour.
All clubs have supporters who are guilty of this, and logic tells you the more supporters a club has the more halfwits behaving in this way.
Therefore its not something unusual and in my view not worthy of comment on here. For the very simple reason that if that shameful event was worth commenting on, then we will be reading about a similar one on here every day.
I think public figures who create headlines or controversy in Scottish Football , are fair game to comment on . Some halfwit ,probably not in full control of his faculties, shouldn’t take up space . All in my personal opinion of course.
Social media content not valid on here?
Not worthy of comment?
The stuff was extreme IMO
But we should button it cos they`re CFC nutters?
Pants
twopanda says:
July 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
‘..Social media content not valid on here?
Not worthy of comment?.’
————
I am inclined to agree with barcabhoy, twopanda.
The tit-for-tattery about what some, or even many, low life scum who use Twitter say in their nasty little, disjointed, and mostly poorly written tweets would go on for ever.
We know that such scum exist, ‘supporting’ football teams of whatever hue.
This blog, though, is all about a higher class of scum entirely-men in office who abuse their office ,and their running dog lackeys in the SMSM!
These are the real baddies. The fact that they can mostly spell correctly and can use PR speak with ease does not make them any better than the lowest, dirtiest-mouthed terracing thug.The thugs have at least the excuse of stupidity. The be-blazered or be- suited ‘educated’ types have no such excuse!
twopanda says:
July 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
Social media content not valid on here?
Not worthy of comment?
The stuff was extreme IMO
But we should button it cos they`re CFC nutters?
Pants
________________________________________
TWOPANDA, we are on page 11 of this current discusssion. If we posted all disgusting, extreme and shameful comments we would be on page 111 or more.
Posted at 10.22 pm, but ran foul of Mods. I posted in agreement with barcabhoy (9.11 pm, above.) I must have used an automatically monitored prohibited term.Unwittingly. 😥
twopanda says:
July 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
Social media content not valid on here?
Not worthy of comment?
The stuff was extreme IMO
But we should button it cos they`re CFC nutters?
Pants
———————————
All, this subject matter is beyond the interesting minds we have on this blog.
I have a hundred tales of Celtic fans who I would never want my children to meet, I also have the same amount of tales of other teams supporters who my children could learn from.
All of that Means Jack Shit because in life there are good and bad people everywhere, having them all displayed on here when they don’t actually affect Scottish footballl does not makes sense.
I am biased as a Celtic fan so maybe my opinion is not valid on this subject but I don’t doubt for a moment the motivation for the guys who have stated that this does not belong on the blog, I believe they have the same views as me and recognise we have nutters who follow our club, I do however doubt the motivation of those that feel it should be displayed and discussed.
This was not a “Celtic Supporting Nutter”, it was simply “A Nutter” who also supports Celtic……
Giving him oxygen on here does not and will not improve Scottish Football.
spanishcelt says:
July 25, 2014 at 6:26 pm
While I agree this is not the place for this type of stuff, if it had been posted about Rangers fans doing something similar it would have been given 100 plus thumbs up followed by posts about how it summarises the entire rangers support.
twopanda says:
July 25, 2014 at 9:33 pm
Social media content not valid on here?
Not worthy of comment?
The stuff was extreme IMO
But we should button it cos they`re CFC nutters?
Pants
Hopefully part of our growing up process.
I have no spat with Barca – none – never have
TSFM says:
July 25, 2014 at 10:36 pm
===================================
Generalsing, stereotyping, whatever, is part of life, but never gets anyone anywhere at the end of the day. We often hear statements in life like ‘typical x club fan’, ‘typical tory’, ‘typical labour’ blah blah blah. Ultimately it proves nothing though.
However, let’s hope the blog can ultimately prove the rule breaking and bending that happened in Scottish Football though.
TPB – Your underwear fetishes aside,……
?
Gentlefolk – I Withdraw
A fairly simple comment has clearly been debated beyond what was required.
My tuppence worth is that I think TSFM, as ever, has captured the relevant point in this recent discussion. Whether this moron supported Celtic or Arbroath, the relevant point is that he was a moron, and an offensive one at that. I can’t remember who said it but they were right, the more supporters a club has the more morons they will have within that number. I know as a rangers supporter that there are an awful amount of embarrassing things posted on the internet in the name of rangers that are toe curlingly terrible, offensive and wrong. The only part where I disagree with those saying it’s not relevant to the blog is this; perhaps discussion of this issue has helped us to realise how easy it is to generalise and stereotype a group of supporters and how we should absolutely not judge the “calibre” of a clubs support by the morons they exhibit from time to time.
From what I’ve read, this was one moron who shouldn’t look in the mirror in morning but he is still one guy. Should we give every moron, who is highlighted for being an asshole, breathing space on any intelligent medium. He should be highlighted for what he is and that should be the end of it. Not a point scoring exercise.
Jesus wept.
RyanGosling says:
July 26, 2014 at 12:42 am
‘..how we should absolutely not judge the “calibre” of a clubs support by the morons they exhibit from time to time.’
——–
The judging of a club’s support has, I think, been a kind of ‘collateral damage’, side effect of the judging of the majority shareholder of a particular club who took Scottish football and Scottish Football administration and administrators into a very dark place.
I may be in a minority of one when I say that the offence committed by SDM ( and , in my opinion, it was an offence that was known about and colluded in by the ‘Authorities’ and unchallenged by the SMSM over a number of years) was absolutely horrendous and remains, frankly,unforgiveable.
The whole thrust of RTC and this present blog is aimed at nailing that offence and the complicity of the SMSM in covering it up.
In those circumstances, the denial, by an apparent majority of that club’s ‘support’, of any wrongdoing whatsoever and their readiness almost to exult in the wrongdoing instead of squaring up to the men who destroyed their club, was not calculated to win any sympathy from the general run of supporters of all the clubs which lost titles, honours, and money because of the cheating. And who consequently have lost faith in any kind of notion that Scottish Football is administered fairly and even- handedly, or that the sports press hacks are capable of intelligent, serious, objective, fact-based journalism OR willing and courageous enough to undertake such journalism..
A great wrong, a very great wrong, has been done to the broader football community.
It cannot therefore be a cause for surprise, regrettable though it may be, that the unapologetic and wilful defence of that wrongdoing gets up people’s noses, and gives nutcases an ‘excuse’ for their Twittery crap.
RTC, and this blog, have not been, and are not ‘anti- Rangers’. They have been, and are, anti- corruption of the sporting ideal by the administrators of our game or by knights of the realm.
There may be, there no doubt are, those who relish the fact that RFC(IL) is no more, and who wish the same fate for TRFC.They are not the voice of this blog.
That voice is of those others whose only concern is that blatant cheating was ignored over a long period of time, and then, on the death of the cheat, was not condignly punished. For them, the fact that RFC was the cheat is, in that context, neither here nor there.
As our friend Rabbie said, ‘facts are chiels that winnae ding’.
And the fact is that Scottish Football was seriously damaged by one club, even more seriously damaged by the supposed ‘guardians’, and that the vast majority of the supporters of that club refuse to acknowledge that any wrong-doing was done.
And the wrongdoers must be called to account, and appropriately punished, in one way or another, over and above the punishment they suffer interiorly, KNOWING that they are guilty men.
The Wee Rovers should give these young upstarts a good Petrofuc!
Iron Men from the Iron Burgh!
Time to talk Scottish football again!
MercDoc says:
July 26, 2014 at 2:33 am
8 0 Rate This
Time to talk Scottish football again!
————
Indeed, although the behavior of fans has never been OT, as such, before, so I feel poor old twopanda is getting a bit of an unfair rollicking.
Moving on, breakfast in Hamburg. Bought tickets for the family and am off to St Pauli. Have heard much about the club so day 2 will see us start by the harbour and stroll up to the stadium. A bit miffed no Scottish teams have drawn Scandinavian opposition in Europe but this friendly is nicely placed on our Deutsche mini-break.
Looking forward to seeing the Scottish Champions 🙂