In the aftermath of the recent election and whilst those of us who voted one way are still hoping that our way continues to count, the horse trading has begun. No matter your politics, the fact that a party wholly representing one part of the United Kingdom is suddenly having such a massive influence, coupled with a lack of detail in the public domain over their negotiations, causes people some nervousness; because of the nature of the DUP, for some they claim it terrifies them.
Can we imagine if football was run that way? Can we imagine if it wasn’t?
Having people who have one focus deliberating and influencing your life has always been an issue at the core of the United Kingdom. Proud Scots do not like the power of the English, some English have begun to resent the growing independence of the Scots, the Welsh have turned out to have their own independence and as for the Irish; the Trouble has always never been far behind.
The recognised method of dealing with these issues has now become to allow, where possible, organisations within the domain of the domicile to grow on their own. For some it sows the seeds of an increasing independence as the locals realise they can do it for themselves. It also does, though ensure the organisation is close to its own people and is truly representative of them.
In Scotland, and throughout the last election, the big two – Conservative and Labour parties – have suffered under the accusations of being a “branch office” of their London centric big sister. It has led to people making choices based on the assumption that, at times, neither of the leaders up here have autonomy. When there are policies that will be unpopular in Scotland, they say, the high heid yins in Edinburgh have no choice but to toe the party line.
We do not like that thought.
Nor should we.
I suggested that football has a similar issue. And so. It does…
The views and opinions of the Scottish fans who last Saturday threw up their hands in joy and held their heads in despair all within 90 seconds or so suffer from that lack of representation. As deals are done in secret and “announcements” made over innovations and changes they are collectively silent through the funded organisation established to represent them; at best that organ is muted.
Never has it been more important for the Scottish football fan to feel the importance of their view being heard. Never has it been more important as Project Brave is being undertaken, chairmen are being fined £3,000 for having a bet, we look as though we are going to miss out on another World Cup, expansion of our cup competitions is growing apace, play offs and promotions have delivered their verdicts and handed their budgets to managers who bemoaned last year it was hard, that one of our two giant clubs seems unable to keep itself out of the court room whilst supplying the accused, the defence lawyer, the pantomime villain and a circus or at least two premiership clubs appear to be on the verge of administration.
Supporters Direct – Undemocratic?
The time has come to ensure that the voice of the footballing nation does not come from around the Isles but around the corner. Whilst the work of Supporters Direct has brought a great deal of support and aid to a number of clubs and supporters groups, the fans need something that is much more than a branch office of a bigger organisation.
In the recent past, SD have seemingly been forced to be more visible but let us not be fooled, if you are an ordinary fan, SD have no place for you. You cannot join, you cannot vote, and you cannot influence; so there is not much point. Building a democratic and fair vocal chord for Scottish football fans needs commitment from the bottom up to engage, enlist and enrich the chorus and chanting of disapproval or support for Scottish football.
That’s why I am in the SFSA – isn’t it time for the Scottish Government to take the bull, grasp the thistle and make the clear choice of removing money going all the way to London and giving it to a fans based organisation that represents them here in Scotland?
We think so… don’t you?
Join the SFSA today! It’s free
Jingso.Jimsie
July 8, 2017 at 15:17
———————————————————————–
“Re the Club1872 statement: that’s extraordinary for an organisation that owns 10% of shares in the holding company. I am not a lawyer, but I suspect that some of the contents may well be able to be challenged in court. I wonder who has deeper pockets; Club1872 or one (or all) of the companies they seem intent on maligning?”
————————————————————————–
“Rangers Football Club and the wider Rangers support, will use every legal means necessary to challenge those who promote, support or facilitate such a course of action.”
Their track record is not very promising.
https://www.ipso.co.uk/rulings-and-resolution-statements/ruling/?id=08346-15
RTC Tweet
Allyjambo I agree that if you grant the premise of what I’m saying, the use of EBTs becomes an even bigger disgrace. I was not and am not attempting to mitigate any of Rangers’ actions by what I said. And as Homunculus noted in his post, my position is simply that without cheating Rangers would just have gone bust sooner, I don’t believe that there was any more appetite back then for living within their means than there is under the current regime at Ibrox. I am also, for the avoidance of doubt, not trying to legitimise the trophies which were won while this practice was going on – I now realise that it may appear that I was. Wilfully misregistered players and massive tax fraud seems to me to be sufficient grounds to put an asterisk next to the titles won while the practice was going on. At the very least.
RyanGoslingJuly 8, 2017 at 16:54 Thanks for your response, Ryan, and it’s good to see you still posting here and making points that challenge the long held thoughts on SFM. It can’t be easy to read so many posts that lambast your club, and you do yourself great credit by continuing to visit this site.
The SC ruling seems to have brought us full circle back to early RTC days.
A recurring theme wrt TRFC and the SFA / SPFL / the clubs has been the conflict between business and sporting integrity objectives.
Typically, business Trumps [
] sporting integrity.
However, IMO, we are at a crossroads: the majority of Scottish football fans expect sporting integrity to be reinforced.
The debate should only be about HOW sporting integrity can be reinforced now – and how to protect it in future.
Celtic Trust statement re Supreme Court rulingPublished on Saturday 8th July, 2017 by Celtic Trust
We note the recent decision of the Supreme Court which confirmed the long-held belief that over many years Rangers Football Club operated with an unfair and illegal advantage over other Clubs and in so doing gained many honours.
We consider the statement from the SFA, that it intends to take no action, to be unacceptable and unsustainable. We join with our own club, Celtic, and supporters of other Clubs who have already commented on this, in calling on the Football Authorities in Scotland to convene a full independent and transparent inquiry into this matter and to do so as a matter of urgency.
We at the Celtic Trust would also urge other clubs and their fans, who have not already done so, to indicate their support for a new enquiry in light of the recent court ruling.
As a start, is there a remediation that bolsters integrity and doesn’t impact business ideals?
1/. Have a review, or are we not even allowed to do that?
2/. Have a review that catches them bang to rights, concludes they can’t do anything about it and asks us to move on. Incredibly, this would still put us on a better footing generally than we are now. That’s basically where Spiers is coming from today.
3/. Have a review, find them guilty seek to apply penalties against ‘the club’ and take it from there. Their choice.
4/. Just to be clear I have no issue with them having a review and either finding them innocent or having no case to answer. Just as long as it is done honestly and transparently. There will be no black hats for the pigeon murderer in this courtroom. At least not in the first instance. (Blackadder if you’re wondering).
It just strikes me as odd priorities. For a fraud that gained the club a £50MILLION advantage they’ve been charged 0.5% of it with no other punishment of note. They then treated said advantage the way dogs treat lampposts and as a consequence went bust. This, it transpired, turned into no more than a 3 year sabbatical with an optional 1 year lie in. Meanwhile our authorities tell the 60% of us that paid our way to avoid upsetting them, even in a token manner that would make no odds to their future business anyway other than bolster their huffy crowds.
Incredible.
I am very unhappy that Celtic beat Shamrock Rovers 0-9. There was no need for that embarrising scoreline !
Should have taken the brakes off.
jimboJuly 8, 2017 at 18:39
I am very unhappy that Celtic beat Shamrock Rovers 0-9. There was no need for that embarrising scoreline !
Should have taken the brakes off
The best way to learn the game is to play against the best and hope the best turn up to test you. SR put out a reserve team due to Europe duties and the reserves will have learned a lot what it takes to make the grade.
Apologies. Ref my post at 18.33 I meant to add but got timed out, that in response to eventuality 2 -that we have a review and decide nothing more can be done then the logical next step is a vote of no confidence in Regan and Doncaster. That supports integrity – we’d merely be doing ourselves properly what we’ve paid them handsomely to do for us – in upholding the principles of the game.
That course of action would meet universal acclaim and ensure it’s not just something as infantile as self protection that’s driving this thing.
Re Celtic Trust statement:
No Veiled threats of violence or boycotts?
No slanderous accusations aimed at other clubs or individuals?
No “Watp” or similar supremacist sign off?
You call that a statement????
Pah! 2/10 – Must try harder.
Astonishing that Gordon Smith actually suggested today that RFC use of EBTs was GOOD for the game. ‘It gave us two helicopter Sundays’.
The definition of sporting advantage if he is taken at his word.
I see the supporters of the EBT recipent team are not happy with Spiers:
Rangers lost their appeal to HMRC, no they didn’t, I think you will find that BDO sought permission to appeal, but lets not mention that.
Rangers must of had extra money as a result of EBTs this for me is the whole crux of the argument would we of signed these players had it not been for EBTs.
I cant recall one player signed during that time saying at the press conference it was the EBT that convinced me to sign.
Ps
i think the whole idea was for the player not to mention it, thats what he got a wee side letter for, although just recently Big Eck was happy to break his silence
Yeah Gordon, it was great when Celtic/Rangers were at each others throats in the mid 00’s. I’m sure the Aberdeen/Hearts/Hibs/Dundee Utd etc.. fans were absolutely besides themselves with excitement and no doubt they all hanker for a return to the days when they had to fight it out for third place as opposed to now fighting it out for 2nd place.
Why doesn’t Gordon hanker for the days like the climax to the 82/83 season I wonder? We had three clubs going in to the final day of the season who could all still be crowned champions. One of those clubs (the one that finished 3rd as it turned out) ended that season with a European trophy in their trophy cabinet! But of course the thrilling finale to the 82/83 season didn’t actually involve rangers in any meaningful sense so that cannot be remembered as an “exciting time”.
Only close run races with Rangers eventually prevailing, by fair means or foul, can be remembered fondly as the “good old days”
I did write an over long post but decided to delete.
The statement from any chairman of any other club or company would have been, if there is a chance for a review of what went on before that will clear or unclear our name once and for all lets get it done then lets move on whatever the consequences. How can any fan of an ibrox club not want a review? do they always want to be associated as a cheating club if there are questions asked? Get the questions answered and get it done then move on.
BIG PINK
JULY 8, 2017 at 19:15
=============================
I’ve read better than that.
Scottish football owes Rangers thanks.
For improving the European co-efficient whilst they were cheating.
I can see the frustration some might feel over the BTC result and anger expressed its natural, however, i thought the supporters voice was an organisation of fans and they had made their feelings known.
Never expected this
SUPPORTERS VOICE LIMITED
Company number SC526829
No idea what it does i know it has shares, something about it reminds me of a Lionbrand.
From an article i posted on here not long ago.(wish i could repost it)
the last of what we heard from Gordon smith was he could not give a flying feck about celtic or a rangers team it bores him now
In terms of the ‘proceeds of crimes’ has anyone worked out the quantum of prize monies awarded to Rangers FC when they used players with EBTs?
It might be too late to make a claim to the liquidators, but it could be important to put the wrongdoing into context, adding to the unpaid tax amounts, to help force the SFA into some action.
Big PinkJuly 8, 2017 at 15:10
‘.. “There’s a lot of ignorance out there”
________
Yes, indeed, and no one is more ignorant than Chick Young, as valentinesclown posted July 8, 2017 at 14:26
‘…….Worse during Stuart Cosgrove and off ball Chic Young stated that the players were not registered improperly as he just thought it was a tax issue and actually mentioned Messi and Ronaldo..’
Now ,Chick’s got previous in the matter of trying to mislead the BBC radio-listening public.
Remember his frequent assertions that King was not a convicted criminal,but had reached a ‘settlement’ with the South Africa Revenue Service?
It appears he is at it again.
Either he is feigning ignorance in a deliberate attempt to mislead listeners.
Or he is actually stupid and ill-informed enough not to know that the ineligibility of players is central to the whole saga.
In either case it is an affront to all of us that he is still getting regular gigs as a retired BBC staff member,and I call for the use of his ‘services’ to be discontinued with immediate effect.
I shall write to Controller, BBC Scotland to that effect.
( And Young simply couldn’t wait to get off the topic of EBTs! Only, Stuart Cosgrove didn’t let him)
Quick response to Ryan Gosling from earlier today.
I think your sense of right and wrong is probably shared by a large section of your club’s support.
That it is so distant from the nonsense coming from the Blue Room and from Club1872 is a real problem.
It has been clear for a long time that the effect of this situation would be the hardening of positions, and elimination of middle ground where mutually agreed terms could reached.
How would your most recent post be treated on any of the Rangers fans fora?
I remember conversations from several years ago where it was predicted,accurately I believe, that we would see a retreat into bigotry and the “nobody likes us,we don’t care” attitude.
You are a great exception from what we are seeing from Ibrox, the vocal sections of their fans and, most importantly, the succulent lamb brigade who are their greatest cheerleaders.
Until their is a much wider acceptance of the original wrongdoing and it’s consequences it is hard to see how there can be a mutually agreed way forward.
It is imperative that sporting integrity, which you clearly get, is demonstrated to be paramount by the organisations that run our sport.
If that means all of the other clubs having to assert a new level of control over the sfa and the spfl, including getting rid of tainted officials, and I believe it does, then so be it.
Your own club will remain a social pariah for as long as it denies it’s past misdeeds, particularly as it claims its past glories. Title stripping is the only route to a future free from the stigma of the SDM/King years. Even that is going to be tough given to he entrenched position.
I wish there were more guys like you able to voice a rational take on the situation and better prepared to make the necessary steps to bring your club out of the current morass.
You deserve better from your club.
Article from 200% Rangers Tax case now then and forever.
http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/893034803?-11344:801:0
I, and many others have said over the years that ‘the truth will out’ – eventually. While I’m sure many of us will have felt great relief that finally, at the highest level, there was no place to run for those who sought to justify the EBT model employed by Rangers (EL), nothing fights harder than a cornered rat that can’t even jump a sinking ship. The predictable majority SMSM response to the Supreme Court Ruling only deflects from the truth. Put simply: You did WRONG. You KNEW you did WRONG. You knew you would BENEFIT from that WRONG. Following the SC Ruling, ‘WRONG’ here = ILLEGAL.
I was tempted to use the well known saying ‘for good men to remain silent … etc’ but decided that it would be wrong to devalue the context in which that is most often expressed. We are talking about Sport not extermination.
The fact remains however, that great injustice has been done, not just to one team but to all teams which participated in the same league as Rangers (IL) during the EBT years, including not just those which lost out on European Competition money but possibly the process of promotion/demotion during those years.
More serious yet is, of course the damage done to the standing and integrity of the organisation of professional football in Scotland. Time and again, over many years, the SFA has been shown up as a self-interested clique with biased priorities determined to maintain a ‘status quo’ with an arrogance which allows them to consider all supporters of all clubs bar one ‘infra dig’.
It is difficult to understand the apparent failure of all clubs except Celtic to challenge the illegal dominance of Rangers (IL) over so many years. I am sure that the fans of Aberdeen and DUFC must feel the same. Is there some hidden code at work here or is the parapet just too high??
In the light of efforts to ‘clean up’ the financial/doping uncovered in other sports and the subsequent cancellation of titles, medals etc., is it too much to expect UEFA to launch an independent inquiry into the decisions of the SFA, SPFL, and behaviour of individuals like O, R and D, not to mention SDM?
The pious, fatuous utterances of those in SMSM and elsewhere controlled by whatever level of obeisance simply continue to devalue whatever fraction of integrity they may imagine they possess.
The Truth will out!
JOHN CLARK
JULY 8, 2017 at 21:41
Big PinkJuly 8, 2017 at 15:10 ‘.. “There’s a lot of ignorance out there” ________ Yes, indeed, and no one is more ignorant than Chick Young, as valentinesclown posted July 8, 2017 at 14:26 ‘…….Worse during Stuart Cosgrove and off ball Chic Young stated that the players were not registered improperly as he just thought it was a tax issue and actually mentioned Messi and Ronaldo..’
Now ,Chick’s got previous in the matter of trying to mislead the BBC radio-listening public. Remember his frequent assertions that King was not a convicted criminal, but had reached a ‘settlement’ with the South Africa Revenue Service?
It appears he is at it again.
Either
he is feigning ignorance in a deliberate attempt to mislead listeners.
Or he is actually stupid and ill-informed enough not to know that the ineligibility of players is central to the whole saga.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
John
I think we ought to be more compassionate towards Chick
This guy isn`t feigning ignorance
bigboab1916July 8, 2017 at 20:23
‘… i thought the supporters voice was an organisation of fans and they had made their feelings known.’
______
Aye, bigboab!
Supporters Voice Ltd has one shareholder- Club 1872!
And , of course, one of the directors is none other than Mr James Don Blair, otherwise known as the secretary of The Rangers Football Club Ltd.
So, a ‘fans’ voice’ carefully orchestrated by the new club, as easy as kiss my donkey, just as easily as club 1872 was made a hapless supplier of funds over which the club has control, not the contributors.
The iniquity of mortal man knows no depths!
John ClarkJuly 8, 2017 at 23:42Aye, bigboab!
Supporters Voice Ltd has one shareholder- Club 1872!
And , of course, one of the directors is none other than Mr James Don Blair, otherwise known as the secretary of The Rangers Football Club Ltd.
So, a ‘fans’ voice’ carefully orchestrated by the new club, as easy as kiss my donkey, just as easily as club 1872 was made a hapless supplier of funds over which the club has control, not the contributors.
The iniquity of mortal man knows no depths!
You would think with all this analysing by the media and Gordon Smith types and the adamant fact they are convinced Lord Nimmo is right they would have noticed from the report below the word club been bandied around a lot:
“I confirm that the Board of Rangers Football Club (the Club) will recommend to
the Trustees of the Murray Group Management Remuneration Trust (MGMRT) to
include you as the protector of a sub-trust and to fund this sub-trust with net totals
as follows:
1. £600,000 in total, payable £150,000 in October 2003, £150,000 in April
2004, £150,000 in October 2004 and £150,000 in April 2005.
2. Effective from the date of this letter until 31 May 2004, £2,000 for each
competitive First Team match in which you have played for the Club, the
relevant amount being payable in quarterly instalments in arrears on the
last business day in each of October, January, April and June during each
season. In the event that there have been less than 5 matches for which
payment is due in any instalment, payment in respect of the same will be
deferred until the next instalment date.
3. The amount, if any, by which the cumulative amount payable in respect of
bonuses in any one season is less than £100,000 net.
The Club undertakes to fund the MGMRT to the extent necessary to permit the
trustees of the MGMRT to carry out this recommendation. In the event that the
MGMRT ceases to be available, the Club will use its best endeavours to make
equivalent alternative arrangements.”
John would appear the club are very active in carrying out the activities you would expect from a company and would give one the impression that perhaps they are one in the same but hey what do we know right
valentinesclownJuly 8, 2017 at 21:54
‘…..So, while the Rangers Tax Case may be over, for as long as Rangers keep the benefits of that cheating, the story is not.’
____________
That sentence, in what I think is the article that I would love to have been able to write(and thank you for the link ) should be engraved on the career gravestones of ‘Football authorities’, who tried to play us football supporters as if we were the same kind of mugs who trustingly gave their dosh to club 1872.
Altogether, it is an incredible story of abuse of office and a kind of Birmingham, Alabama Governor Wallace total inability ( otherwise known as ‘invincible ignorance’- cf Chick Young)to recognise objective fact.
That some of ‘the people’ in office may have personally profited by turning a Nelson eye at critical times is something that might be worth exploring. Nay, requires exploration.
There is, after all, a wee bit of history there, of lies and deceit in the highest reaches of Scottish Football.
We have to look to such men of integrity as there may be among our club owners/majority shareholders to have a look at themselves , and ask, in the old Latin phrase ‘ ad quid?’- very roughly translated as ‘ what’s your game?’
JOHN CLARKJULY 8, 2017 at 21:41
I tried it the other way, starting at the top of the BBC and down through the levels until I got a response from a rather aggravated guy at BBC Scotland . My query was about the BBC paying tax-payers money to tax dodgers, especially wrt Sportscene,as that was a programme I watched and was aware that certain “guests” and at least one regular contributor were relaxed in the manner they addressed their tax obligations . I’ll dig out the response , but it was basically saying these guys are good guys, the system of tax management was still legit (even after the C of S verdict), and that personal tax issues were of no interest to the BBC. I will draft and send a supplementary ramorra .
bigboab1916July 9, 2017 at 00:13
‘…but hey what do we know right..’
______
Have you read the CoS judgment in the Charles Green appeal against being knocked back for his legal expenses to defend himself in the conspiracy charges he faced?
The judgment ( although the case was heard on 18th March 2016) was only made public on 22/06/17.
https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=6eaf36a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
Honest to God!There seems to be a kind of magical spell cast on some of our legal people that enables them not to see simple,plain facts. To wit, that it was the very football club ( there was no ‘holding company’) that went into Liquidation.
And was not bought out of administration by a ‘new owner’.
A chancer did a deal with the Administrators to buy the assets if the Administrators couldn’t ( or wouldn’t) find a buyer, and couldn’t ‘arrange’ a CVA.
i will not ‘murmur judges’, of course,but I think as a free citizen of my native country I may be allowed a ‘FFS’
John ClarkJuly 9, 2017 at 01:13Have you read the CoS judgment in the Charles Green appeal against being knocked back for his legal expenses to defend himself in the conspiracy charges he faced?
i have bookmarked your link for tommorows reading they are the gift that keeps giving, found this on Phil Macs twitter hilarious from their cousins across the water going on about their pallet thefts and burning of each others, rivarly….like the guys that attack other guys marrows to get the prize.
the areas for the bonfires “‘Unionist cultural expression zones’
ie car parks and public spaces to you and me “
paddy malarkeyJuly 9, 2017 at 01:04
‘..My query was about the BBC paying tax-payers money to tax dodgers, especially wrt Sportscene,as that was a programme I watched and was aware that certain “guests” and at least one regular contributor were relaxed in the manner they addressed their tax obligations …’
________________
There is , and can be, no question but that BBC Scotland , from the very top, has done its damnednest to protect the cheating SDM’s club, and continues to propagate the untruth that TRFC is the very Rangers of their emotional , brotherly attachment.
You and I pay the salaries of these guys. Just as you and I as taxpayers were cheated for years by a knight of the realm ( a curse be upon such knights!) who worked a flanker on us all.
Bad, and very bad, cess to him.
And worse cess to those in the BBC who make a mockery of ‘Trust is the foundation of the BBC: we are independent, impartial and honest’
There are a lot of people in that bloody place , Pacific Quay, is it?,who are anything but.
As there are in the SFA.
Homunculus
Thanks for your insightful response although I am still none the wiser as to the reasons football clubs/company’s seem to operate on a different wavelength than the rest of the business world.
It also got me to consider the comments made in the statement King recently released and his previous statement from 2012, again I find myself asking how come an ex director of a failed business can openly state that he knew that RFC(IL) were operating a scheme that could lead to insolvency, he stated that all of the then directors of the club or company new that they were operating beyond the club/company’s means to sustain itself, in other words RFC (IL) were operating in a manner that would ultimately lead to insolvency. It is my understanding that this alone can be classed as criminal activity and any director with knowledge of this could be held responsible in a court of law as they ultimately have a duty to protect the interests of both shareholders and possible creditors.
If I am correct in my assessment, why is it there seems to be no appetite to prosecute the directors as would surely be the case if a fraud on this scale happened outwith the confines of the football world. I sincerely hope there are some squeaky bums down Govan way every time King opens his mouth, we really should get behind King and encourage him, praise his indefatigable persistence, accept his unquestionable superior intellect and wisdom, who knows he might turn out to be the salvation we are all looking for all be it in a form that is not quite how we envisaged.
Pat Byrne,
BRTH answers your questions here:
http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/bdos-duty-to-report-rangers-directors-to-dti/
Re Gordon Smith on Sportsound yesterday. One of the most staggering views he offered was that during the EBT years there were two very exciting last day finishes, in 2003 and 2005, where of course Rangers pipped Celtic to the league on both occasions. He also cited Celtic winning the league during the EBT period as evidence Rangers had no advantage. Even more incredibly he cited Rangers winning the league before the EBT period as evidence there was no advantage, which of course was the period that the then Bank of Scotland financed them to a level way beyond what they should have. I thought his comments were utterly disgraceful and completely overlooked the whole point of the debate.
Gordon Smith is a former player and Director of Rangers 2012 (IL). He was part of an Ibrox board which, in a completely separate case, withheld millions in PAYE and N.I. He was the CEO of the SFA when EBT’s were in place. They did nothing about it then and they are doing nothing about it now. It is an utter disgrace that Smith was paid money from the public purse yesterday to act as a propagandist for Rangers, because that’s what he did. The BBC could have saved themselves money and simply interviewed some people smoking outside the Louden Tavern – the views would have been broadly the same.
There will be no ‘moving on’ here, and as a reminder to Chick Young as well, the sleeping dogs will have to be wakened, no matter how aggressive they become.
JIMBOJULY 9, 2017 at 08:07 1 Vote
Pat Byrne,
BRTH answers your questions here:http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/bdos-duty-to-report-rangers-directors-to-dti/
Thanks JIMBO
That covers a lot of what I was trying to get to only in a far more understandable and informative format, I am relieved that more capable minds are onto this and other aspects of this charade that require to be exposed to the public at large, I was thinking that I was probably barking up the wrong tree the last few weeks as my knowledge of corporate practises are very limited and extend to what I can Google (as long as it sticks to layman’s terms)
JIMBO
JULY 9, 2017 at 08:07
==================================
Funnily enough when reading Pat’s post I was going to suggest he read that very article.
I think people work on the basis that a liquidator’s job is to bring in money for the creditors and wind up the business. It is much more than that.
They genuinely seem to think that they can do what they want and the rules don’t apply. They can run at a permanent loss and the business can just fold, leaving well over £100m in debt, and not worry about what that means to the creditors. Including over £90m owed to the country. They can take any risk they want in order to win football matches, it matters not how it might affect other people.
Dave King glibly talks about that as if it was OK as a “business plan”.
I have posted this before, a few times, but I don’t think once more would hurt. Particularly with the comments Dave King recently made.
HomunculusJuly 8, 2017 at 20:06
BIG PINKJULY 8, 2017 at 19:15=============================I’ve read better than that.Scottish football owes Rangers thanks. For improving the European co-efficient whilst they were cheating. Ive not seen it mentioned, at all, in the last few daysThe Rangers EBT era in which we had a 19 match UEFA run in 2007/08 (1 year alone)In addition to several other UCL appearancesWas worth MILLIONS to Scottish Football and the resultant UEFA Country Payments / Seedings that resultedWe made Scottish Football millionsCeltic FC benefitted after our forced removal from top flight football to the tune of tens of millions due to our UEFA coefficient contributionCeltic FC and other Scottish clubs benefitted from our EBT era to the tune of tens of millionsBy god the EBT era gave me some good timesBut by God the EBT era gave YOU the rest of Scottish football good times tooYou should be paying US for them. We didnt get to enjoy the subsequent years. You did.If ever you find a mug to take anything from us. Mr UEFA will be asking for all that back.
____________________
That must surely be a Celtic (or other non-TRFC) supporter on the wind-up, for the grammar, at least, is far better than we normally find in most of the rants from bona fide bears, for it to be a serious effort. Surely no one with any reasonable level of intelligence could have written that without his/her tongue firmly within his/her cheek!
‘The whole community benefitted because I spent the money I stole in local pubs and sometimes bought a round for everybody there. They owe me something for all this sacrifice’, is basically what he/she is saying!
John ClarkJuly 8, 2017 at 23:42
‘The iniquity of mortal man knows no depths!’
______________________
I love that quote, John, however poorly it reflects on society. Can you tell us who first said it, I’m sure I’ll find cause to use it from time to time
Does anyone else think it is worthy of note that Rangers, the football club, haven’t actually made any statement in relation to either the Supreme Court ruling or the calls for the re-examination of the trophies they won whilst cheating.
As far as I am aware there have been two public statements.
1, Dave King made a personal statement, in relation to the time that he was a director of the old club. He is not actually anything to do with the new one, he is a shareholder and chairman of the PLC which owns it’s shares. However he went out of the way to make it clear in what capacity he was making his statement, perhaps he was told to.
2, Club 1872 have made a statement. That CIC (I always laugh at that) holds 10% of the same PLC, but in reality acts more like a confrontational fan group.
Nothing from the club itself that I have seen though.
HOMUNCULUS
JULY 9, 2017 at 10:22
Does anyone else think it is worthy of note that Rangers, the football club, haven’t actually made any statement in relation to either the Supreme Court ruling or the calls for the re-examination of the trophies they won whilst cheating.
As far as I am aware there have been two public statements.
1, Dave King made a personal statement, in relation to the time that he was a director of the old club. He is not actually anything to do with the new one, he is a shareholder and chairman of the PLC which owns it’s shares. However he went out of the way to make it clear in what capacity he was making his statement, perhaps he was told to.
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Why would they? Every mainstream news outlet has included the ‘doesn’t affect the current club/company’ mantra in its reporting of the BTC. TRFC/RIFC may also be of the opinion that the matter, at SFA/SPFL level, is closed due the existence of certain agreements.
As to DCK, his ‘personal statement’ is issued through the TRFC website, which is wholly owned by the company, RIFC, in which he (or more correctly, the trust he controls) has the largest shareholding. He then refers to his position as Chairman in his ‘personal statement’, both of which, at least, muddies the water as to whether his comments are personal or or related to the business he controls.
JINGSO.JIMSIE
JULY 9, 2017 at 11:24
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Plausible deniability if there is any comeback.
Looks like an official statement, everyone takes it as one. However any hassle it’s nothing to do with the club, King made it clear it was his personal view, in his capacity as a director of the old club.
AllyjamboJuly 9, 2017 at 10:12
‘…I love that quote, John, however poorly it reflects on society. Can you tell us who first said it, I’m sure I’ll find cause to use it from time to time’
___________
If it is a quote from somewhere , Aj, it’s one that I’m not conscious of. Possibly my mind just ran together words and phrases used in the usual ‘suspects’-the Bible and Shakespeare.
Yeah Gordon Smith appears to think “Sporting Advantage” = “100% certain to win”
So the fact that RFC never won the league in every season in question is proof in his mind that there was no “sporting advantage”
This of course is an absolutely ludicrous interpretation of the term “Sporting advantage”. Just because you have an inbuilt advantage does not guarantee victory it merely increases your chances of victory.
So if Motherwell (for example) signed a top drawer defender tomorrow via some sort of illicit tax dodging scheme, then their chances of winning the league will have increased. This however does not guarantee that they will win it or that they will even finish any higher than they did last year.
The same applies to all sporting competitions. Cheating/Breaking the rules does not guarantee victory. and just because you finish 2nd/3rd/4th….. does not mean that you haven’t broken the rules or that rule breaking is no big deal so long as you don’t win.
It is complete idiocy from Gordon Smith.
JOHN CLARKJULY 9, 2017 at 12:36
AllyjamboJuly 9, 2017 at 10:12‘…I love that quote, John, however poorly it reflects on society. Can you tell us who first said it, I’m sure I’ll find cause to use it from time to time’___________If it is a quote from somewhere , Aj, it’s one that I’m not conscious of. Possibly my mind just ran together words and phrases used in the usual ‘suspects’-the Bible and Shakespeare.
_____________
I’ll credit to you, then, John, the Sage of SFM
Ah, but there’s a lot of ignorance out there!
Gordon Smith Logic two helicopters and the two horse races.
The argument put forward was Aberdeen and the rest shut up it always was and will be a two horse race Celtic and Rangers with Celtic.at the time, strong enough to win titles there was no sporting advantage, in other words as long it did not affect Celtic (which it did) too much the rest can piss off this SPL is a two horse affair, I don’t think so this SPFL is a level playing field you play to your strengths within rules you break the rules piss off.
Anybody else less than surprised, that the only ones rallying against a review, are “the accused”, backed by the recently convicted.
Spooky eh.
I’m slowly coming to the opinion that the SFA/SPFL will be forced into ditching the findings etc of the LNS commission and setting up a new commission. Now I’m certain that a great deal of emphasis will be placed on the independence and integrity of the members of such a renewed commission. However unless this review is held in public I will still have doubts on it arriving at a just decision.
I’m sorry but I just don’t trust the bar stewards.
Charlie_KellyJuly 9, 2017 at 12:39
Yeah Gordon Smith appears to think “Sporting Advantage” = “100% certain to win”So the fact that RFC never won the league in every season in question is proof in his mind that there was no “sporting advantage”This of course is an absolutely ludicrous interpretation of the term “Sporting advantage”. Just because you have an inbuilt advantage does not guarantee victory it merely increases your chances of victory.So if Motherwell (for example) signed a top drawer defender tomorrow via some sort of illicit tax dodging scheme, then their chances of winning the league will have increased. This however does not guarantee that they will win it or that they will even finish any higher than they did last year.The same applies to all sporting competitions. Cheating/Breaking the rules does not guarantee victory. and just because you finish 2nd/3rd/4th….. does not mean that you haven’t broken the rules or that rule breaking is no big deal so long as you don’t win.It is complete idiocy from Gordon Smith
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As their straw clutching becomes ever more idiotic, ever more extreme in it’s shift from reality, it just serves to emphasises the fact that a great wrong was done to Scottish football by the club they supported – up until it’s death. A death they all recognised at the time, but in denying that fact, too, they continue to display their idiocy with ever more idiotic claims!
When you are right, you don’t have to search for straws to clutch, and the more ludicrous the straws you clutch, the more obviously wrong your misguided ‘belief’ becomes!
No court in the land finds against you if it doesn’t consider you to have broken the law. The highest court in the land has just found against Rangers and it’s use of EBTs, and yet, these men who would portray themselves as more knowledgeable than the average football supporter, would have us believe that their old club didn’t act illegally in it’s use of EBTs!
Sadly, every branch of our media is happy to give them a medium in which to spout their idiocy, while forever denying the other side of the argument the right to be aired fairly!
GiovanniJuly 9, 2017 at 13:42
I’m slowly coming to the opinion that the SFA/SPFL will be forced into ditching the findings etc of the LNS commission and setting up a new commission. Now I’m certain that a great deal of emphasis will be placed on the independence and integrity of the members of such a renewed commission. However unless this review is held in public I will still have doubts on it arriving at a just decision.I’m sorry but I just don’t trust the bar stewards.
____________________
I certainly wouldn’t trust any of them to pour me a full pint, nor to use a clean glass
though I am certain they would all wash their hands (of any responsibility) afterwards!
My issue isn’t in Gordon Smith recognising it was a two horse race at the time. My issue is in him acknowledging why it was whilst simultaneously denying that a £150m leg up in some way didnt contribute.
I was just thinking a bit more about Gordon Smith’s hankering for the good old days of EBT’s and Helicopters changing direction, red white & blue ticker tape parades etc… It got me thinking about ways to make the top flight more competitive. By “top Flight” I of course mean “rangers”.
I would like to propose that as of next season that rangers be given a 1 goal start in every league & cup match. This is sure to make the title race between Celtic & rangers far more competitive and therefore far more interesting to fans of all clubs in Scotland.
Looking at last season as an example. Had this been applied (Yes I know games may have panned out differently had rangers had a 1-0 lead going in to the game but just forget that for the moment) then rangers would have achieved 25pts more giving them a final total of 92pts.
Celtic would have had 3pts less by virtue of drawing the hogmanay derby 2-2 and losing 2-1 at home to rangers in March, giving a final points tally for Celtic of 103.
So that’s a final gap of 11pts. Not quite a nail biter but certainly way more competitive than a 39 point gap and having rangers in 3rd place. A couple of decent signings for rangers and maybe an injury or two at Celtic and who knows we could have another end of season cliffhanger on our hands for the 2017/18 season like the good old days of EBT’s.
I now propose that the SPFL board & SFA convene an EGM to have these measures in place for the start of the new season. I just hope there are no petty and small minded complaints from clubs like Aberdeen or Hearts complaining about rangers being given an “unfair advantage”. How can it be an unfair advantage if Celtic still won the league by 11 points last year?
I don’t suppose anyone screen grabbed Spiers piece in the times yesterday? I meant to reward his endeavour with a sale but the local shop was sold out, such was the rush/ shock value!
SMUGASJULY 9, 2017 at 14:47
https://twitter.com/GrahamSpiers/status/883655444643950592
What really kills me at the moment is all the greeting and threatening from all the guilty and conflicted parties in all this…….Since when do the GUILTY (and by the highest court in the land) people get to dictate their punishment ?? ….Cant help but think back to years ago when title stripping was on the agenda and sleekit McCoist said very confidently something to the effect of ” Oh you wont be taking our titles” with a big cheezy grin on his face. Then we found out why , he obviously knew the fix was in with the compliant SFA, SPL , Bryson type leeches and “Lord” Nimmo Smith This must be dealt with this time round
Gordon “I know nothing about anything” Smith.
Chick “I’m a Buddy” Young.
Why are they still being approached by the SMSM?
Who rates them ?
The SMSM needs to move on, and listen to their customers.
[I know.]
And following King’s and Club 1690’s statements…
regardless of what happens – or doesn’t happen – re: reviewing EBT titles…
does any other Scottish football fan believe that an Ibrox club will suddenly start behaving properly?
It is, and always will be, a blight on Scottish football, IMO.
Mibbees before even addressing the EBT years, Scottish football should consider whether or not we want such a deviant club in our midst?
The Rangers Tax Case was seen as a test study into EBTs in football, and many media outlets think this is the tip of the iceberg, particularly in England. Surely the SFA should consult with their cross border counterparts on what actions may be taken? Arsenal have already settled an EBT case for their title winning year, so if we are applying the logic Rangers should have titles stripped because they were using illegal means of paying their players, surely Arsenals league titled should be taken away? And what if a number of other big fish in England are found guilty? Imagine how it would look if Scotland stripped rangers of 14 titles, and (just an example) Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal are all found to have operated a similar scheme and not had any action taken?
DunderheidJuly 7, 2017 at 21:35
I wonder: can anyone give me a link to the SFA’s rules vis-à-vis the powers of its Board?
Might be amongst this lot. Hopefully the multiple links will stick.
SFA articles of association
http://www.scribd.com/doc/143099754/SFA-ArticlesofAssociation-2006
http://www.scribd.com/doc/143196212/SFA-Articles-of-Association-2009
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2012-13/SFA_HANDBOOK_53-136_Articles_of_Association.pdf
SFA registration procedures
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2012-13/SFA_HANDBOOK_201-280_Registration_Procedures.pdf
SFA cup competition rules
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/ScottishFAPublications2013-14/Cup%20competition%20rules.pdf
SFA’s club licensing criteria (December 2013)
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/ClubLicensing/2014/Prt%202%20Sct%208%20-%20Leg,%20Admin,%20Finance,Codes%20(2).pdf
Someone just made a very good point on Twitter. If Rangers and their fans genuinely believe they did no wrong, then why are they not welcoming a review in order for their name to be cleared? The review of course would have to include everything, including the wee tax case payments.
I should have added above, what about the image rights tax cases? Again major teams including Chelsea have been found to have abused the tax system in order to minimise their bills. How can we possibly punish every team for financial irregularities? It’s not the same as deliberate cheating the sort we witnessed in Italy a decade ago?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1467295/Parlour-divorce-exposes-Arsenal-offshore-tax-dodge.html
DARKBEFOREDAWN
JULY 9, 2017 at 15:55
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What other countries hypothetically may or may not do is irrelevant as far as I am concerned.
Rangers have been found guilty of hiding contracts from the SFA / SPL. That is a matter of record, however at the time the decision and punishment was based on their EBT being considered legitimate, with no weight put on the ongoing appeal process. A suspicious mind would think that it suited them to do it then, rather than await a final result.
It has also just been finally confirmed that they indulged in tax avoidance for years, during the same period. That is now a final and irrevocable decision.
They deliberately cheated, gaining a financial advantage and through it a sporting advantage
The matter should be reviewed by the football authorities in Scotland. That review should be open and transparent, with no set result. It can now take all of the facts into accounts.
JOHN CLARKJULY 9, 2017 at 01:46 ======================
I’m sure I’m not the first to post this on this site but the BBC (both Scottish and UK) has shown itself for a long time to be anything but unbiased when it comes to reporting the news, not just sport. I will give the UK Beeb its due and there is nothing like the sycophancy towards Rangers (IL and reformed) in their reporting of the English league.
UPTHEHOOPSJULY 9, 2017 at 16:03
Someone just made a very good point on Twitter. If Rangers and their fans genuinely believe they did no wrong, then why are they not welcoming a review in order for their name to be cleared? The review of course would have to include everything, including the wee tax case payments
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Knowing, but ignoring the truth gives some gum-bumping leeway
Having cheating confirmed, means STFU…..With the additional dilemma of having to clear out the bloo-room…………….And them having lent so much money tae…
Maybe they will ask for it back?
DARKBEFOREDAWNJULY 9, 2017 at 16:11 ====================
Did Arsenal mis-register the players they had on EBTs in order to hide that they were using EBTs?? If not, then I would imagine that by paying off the debt to HMRC they were OK – though I can see an argument that maybe the title won should be revisited, however whether this is done or not is irrelevant as it’s what the SPFL and SFA should have done which is important here, Rangers both took advantage of an illegal tax scheme AND registered players incorrectly to hide this.
AllyjamboJuly 8, 2017 at 10:09
“Until now, we have all looked at the mis-registration aspect only to be a ploy to avoid detection by HMRC, and undoubtedly it was, but I think it has blinded us to the quite simple fact that improper payments, definitely illegal within the confines of football, and possibly criminal within the law of the land, were made.”
Is the general lack of inertia in addressing this matter a symptom of a wider culture of casual payments within the game? We know that historically football has been quite lax in its fiscal controls. Does this history confer a collective guilt that makes clubs reluctant to become animated in current circumstances?
To play devil’s advocate how would it look if the FA did amend trophy records for the same offences and the SFA hadn’t?
I’m now going to offer what is only an opinion, but it is what I strongly believe. If Celtic had been guilty of what Rangers are guilty of, I believe they would already be classed as a new club, and that all trophies won over the period would have been stripped. That would be the right course of action on both counts, and in my view the only problem we currently have with doing the right thing is the entity involved. It’s pretty much like members of the Royal Family escaping police action for driving offences in the past while others who are considered not to have social parity with Royals don’t.
One of the replies to JJ’s blog today asks of Regan: “Time to tell the nation if the SFA paid ‘ the side letter’ element of the RFC player’s ‘remuneration’ claimed, when injured on Scotland duty, as Heidi forensically disclosed.”
Was this point ever discussed on SFM or RTC before it?
DARKBEFOREDAWNJULY 9, 2017 at 15:55 Imagine how it would look if Scotland stripped rangers of 14 titles, and (just an example) Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal are all found to have operated a similar scheme and not had any action taken?
If the English clubs were not dealt with by the English FA that would be up to English football fans to take the same action as Scottish football fans. Comparing apples with oranges, as the media are doing, is fudging the issues. Scottish teams fans are interested in how the Tax decision affected them, what would have been their chances of say promotion had they manged to draw or win against a legitimate fielded Rangers side, what about the cup bonuses they lost and advancement to more riches by been knocked out and most importantly why have they been paying taxes and been punished by our SFA for minor clerical offences when major offences of one team who have been found guilty of improper registration and tax evasion by knowingly witholding what should be declared and paid, be any different and have preferential treatment. The English fans if they have been taken for mugs have the decision to call the shots and bring to book their oraganisation if they fail in their duties.
With all the statements and having to read a lot i almost forgot that The ibrox club face an investigation by UEFA after a section of their support launched balls of paper on to the field of play.
The referee had to call a halt to play while the paper was cleared and incident will featured in the report of the UEFA observer Tormod Larsen.
Has anyone heard anything from UEFA ?I believe something would have been said on Friday.
UPTHEHOOPSJULY 9, 2017 at 16:03
Someone just made a very good point on Twitter. If Rangers and their fans genuinely believe they did no wrong, then why are they not welcoming a review in order for their name to be cleared? The review of course would have to include everything, including the wee tax case payments.
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Aye,You just know they read it on SFM first.
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CLUSTER ONEJULY 8, 2017 at 20:05
I did write an over long post but decided to delete.The statement from any chairman of any other club or company would have been, if there is a chance for a review of what went on before that will clear or unclear our name once and for all lets get it done then lets move on whatever the consequences. How can any fan of an ibrox club not want a review? do they always want to be associated as a cheating club if there are questions asked? Get the questions answered and get it done then move on.
BILLY BOYCEJULY 9, 2017 at 18:07
Don’t know.
But remember SPFL paid BT Sport £250k to show Rangers games in the lower leagues, so who knows
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/teams/rangers/spfl-pay-bt-sport-250k-to-show-rangers-games-1-3417629
The issue of insurance for players injured whilst on international duty was definitely raised but I don’t think a definitive answer was ever found. A high earner was definitely cited as being eligible, I forget who now (McCann?) but I don’t ever recall it being proven either way.
It it would depend I guess if anyone ever. He led the registration doc versus the claim.
Been a while. Lurked.
Folks, as a collective we shouldn’t be seen as a partisan discriminatory enterprise. I like these this site, im a total follower, however I became weary of the singular target. That’s not to say that the target wasn’t wothry of a snipers telescope. We’re constantly looking behind. We need to look ahead. There is no ‘them’. They’re spent. Wholly dependent upon a media that’s already twitching with the ‘McInnes and ‘Rodgers’ revolution. Fairs fair, both have made a difference. McInnes more so. He stood his ground. Not until we ignore the beast that the free press predicted. (Armageddon). Sir Murray’s fkd, like Fred. The sniper has to focus on the SFA & SPFL. Salmond & LNS are fodder and not worth the energy. Votes are the new currency. Let’s aim for them. Jackson, Traynor, Heralds & Records are sending guys for bovrils. We need to shit in their shoes.
STIFFLERSMOMJULY 9, 2017 at 20:24 Been a while. Lurked. Folks, as a collective we shouldn’t be seen as a partisan discriminatory enterprise. I like these this site, im a total follower, however I became weary of the singular target. That’s not to say that the target wasn’t wothry of a snipers telescope. We’re constantly looking behind. We need to look ahead. There is no ‘them’. They’re spent. Wholly dependent upon a media that’s already twitching with the ‘McInnes and ‘Rodgers’ revolution. Fairs fair, both have made a difference. McInnes more so. He stood his ground. Not until we ignore the beast that the free press predicted. (Armageddon). Sir Murray’s fkd, like Fred. The sniper has to focus on the SFA & SPFL. Salmond & LNS are fodder and not worth the energy. Votes are the new currency. Let’s aim for them. Jackson, Traynor, Heralds & Records are sending guys for bovrils. We need to shit in their shoes.
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In 2011 when creating this site was mooted there was a lengthy RTC debate on what to call the new forum.
I was in the camp of calling it something that clearly emphasised the aim of rooting out corruption in the Scottish football governing bodies. Others felt this was too narrow an objective whilst some felt the game needed a permanent forum that could unite fans on topics of common interest and stimulate discussion.
A democratic vote settled on “Scottish Football Monitor” as the site title
6 yrs. later we still have a corrupt governing body who have committed yet another corrupt offence in approving TRFC as financially viable to participate in the 2017-2018 Europa League despite having no audited accounts since June 2016. The Res12 issue also seems to have got nowhere
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Would our views have gained more attention if they appeared under a site title that included the word “corruption”?
I can`t help feeling they might have been