I am privileged to have the chance to post a “guest” article on TSFM. As we get used to the lights being turned out, even temporarily, on RTC, we have a new forum for analysing the various issues which concern supporters of Scottish football.
It is undoubtedly the case that most of these issues involve the Rangers FC, either directly or indirectly, together with their interaction with the governing bodies of Scottish football.
One of the matters mentioned on “The List” page here is the Nimmo Smith report. I try to answer the question about what happened to it below, and note the relevance its apparent disappearance has for the soon to convene SPL Independent Commission.
I would encourage anyone who wants to do so to contribute posts for publication to TSFM.
RTC created from nothing a vibrant community looking at serious and complex issues of finance, law and corporate governance with a huge range of expertise, and not a little humour. TSFM can build on that legacy for the good of football in Scotland, and hopefully to the betterment of our media.
Whatever Happened to the Nimmo Smith Report?
On 21st February 2012 the SFA announced that it had appointed retired judge Lord Nimmo Smith to chair an independent inquiry into Rangers FC. His panel comprised Professor Niall Lothian, Past President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland; Bob Downes, former Director of BT and now Deputy Chairman of the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency, and Stewart Regan, CEO of the SFA.
The Inquiry was commissioned to investigate the potential breach of a number of SFA Articles of Association and to present its findings to the SFA Board within two weeks. Article 62.2 (q) of the SFA Articles of Association allows the SFA Board to appoint “a commission … to attend to and/or determine any matter(s) referred to it by the Board.”
Stewart Regan was quoted saying: “I am delighted Lord Nimmo Smith has agreed to Chair the Independent Inquiry. I am certain the experience contained within the panel will enable us to achieve more clarity on the situation regarding Rangers FC. There will be no further comment on the investigation until it is complete and its findings presented to the Board.”
One wonders about the use of the word “independent”, bearing in mind that one of the members was the CEO of the commissioning body, and on the Board which would consider it once prepared.
On 2nd March Mr Regan had more to say, although the investigation was not yet complete.
“We are now in the final stages of our independent inquiry into the situation concerning Rangers FC. The report by The Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith is expected to be completed next week and will go to a Special Board Meeting for consideration. It would be inappropriate to make any further comment at this stage in relation to the details gleaned from the inquiry, the potential contents of the report or any possible sanctions.
On 8th March the Special Board Meeting took place to consider the Nimmo Smith Report. Mr Regan commented:-
“I can confirm that the Scottish FA convened a Special Board Meeting at Hampden Park today to discuss the findings of the Independent Inquiry into Rangers FC, prepared by the Chair, The Right Honourable Lord William Nimmo Smith.
“Principally, it is the belief of the Board, taking into account the prima facie evidence presented today, that Mr Craig Whyte is not considered to be a Fit and Proper person to hold a position within Association Football.
“The report submitted by Lord Nimmo Smith, having been considered fully by the Board, highlights a number of other potential rule breaches by the club and its owner. The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.
As such, the report’s contents will not be published at this time. Nevertheless, I can confirm that the club is facing a charge of bringing the game into disrepute.”
On 24th April Mr Regan, following the verdict of the Judicial Panel, said the following:-
“It was entirely right that the original inquiry into Rangers FC and Craig Whyte was conducted independently and chaired by the Right Honourable Lord Nimmo Smith. These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal, who returned their verdict last night.”
That all seems clear. Lord Nimmo Smith, with the help of distinguished people like Mr Regan, carried out a quick but thorough investigation, and the results were put to the Judicial Panel for consideration.
However Gary Allan QC, who chaired the Panel, made the following comment on page 59 of the Panel’s written decision.
“It is remarkable that throughout the Judicial Panel Disciplinary Tribunal Process there has been repeated, and regrettably wholly misconceived reference to the Report of Lord Nimmo Smith. For the avoidance of any doubt, the Judicial Panel hearing this disciplinary matter was at no time presented with the report, as evidence or otherwise, nor was it presented with any of its findings. No member of the Tribunal has had sight of it. The report was not mentioned by any party at any time in the course of the proceedings. The determinations which were reached, therefore, were reached entirely independently of any view at which any other person, however senior or eminent, may have arrived in fulfilment of his remit prior to the disciplinary hearing.”
How can the Chair of the Panel deny having seen a document which, according to one of the people who sat on the independent committee, was presented to them?
The answer is two-fold.
Firstly, at pages 2 to 3 of the Judicial Panel decision, the procedural nuts and bolts of the case are discussed:-
“The Tribunal … directed that … it would proceed to hear the evidence and submissions and proceed to Determinations in relation to the complaints against both Rangers FC and Mr Whyte.
The Tribunal … noted that … it would proceed on the basis that there was an absolute denial on (Mr Whyte’s) part of each element of the alleged breach of the rules in all its particulars.
The Tribunal directed that accordingly, and notwithstanding the fact that in its written responses Rangers FC in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules, … the Tribunal would require to establish a clear factual basis for its Determination of both any alleged breaches and, if applicable, any sanction against either or both Rangers FC or Mr Whyte. … The commission and the circumstances of the alleged breaches would therefore require to be established by the leading of evidence before the Tribunal …
A discussion in relation to the procedure to be adopted took place. It was agreed that the Compliance Officer Mr Lunny would lead evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material but would lead no witnesses, and would invite the Tribunal to accept the evidence in that form as provided in the Judicial Panel Protocol. Mr McLaughlin for Rangers FC, standing its position on the complaints contained in the written response previously submitted had neither issues with that proposal nor any other objection to the procedure which would be adopted. An opportunity would then be afforded to Rangers FC to lead evidence and make submissions as Mr McLaughlin on its behalf saw fit. Mr McLaughlin intimated that he would be likely to lead evidence from four witnesses previously intimated to the Compliance Officer and the Tribunal in terms of the Judicial Panel Protocol.”
At the hearing the positions of Rangers FC and of Mr Whyte were totally at odds. Mr Whyte did not appear nor lodge any substantive reply. He denied everything. On the other hand, Rangers FC “in substantial measure admitted the factual averments and a number of the alleged breaches of the rules”. As the Panel determined, they needed to be satisfied of the right verdict based on the evidence, but as the “prosecution case” was generally admitted, there was less rigour about this than if, for example, Mr Whyte had attended and denied the charges.
If Mr Whyte had appeared to deny the allegations, or if Rangers FC had disputed them, then evidence would have had to come from witnesses, who could have been cross-examined. In that event it would not have been sufficient to present the Nimmo Smith report, because, for all his experience, expertise and eminence, he is not guaranteed to be infallible.
One important principle in judicial and quasi-judicial procedure is the “Best Evidence rule”. If possible, original documents should be produced, rather than copies. Items of physical evidence should be brought to the court, rather than photographs of it. Witnesses should give evidence rather than having witness statements provided to the hearing.
This, I think, provides part of the explanation for the apparently mysterious absence of the Nimmo Smith Report.
The facts of the case had been admitted by the only party who attended the hearing, namely Rangers FC. Therefore Mr Lunny led “evidence ex parte by submission and reference to documentary material”. The Panel made 108 separate “findings in fact” derived from the evidence he put forward and that of Rangers FC.
Where Lord Nimmo Smith’s committee had, for example, analysed documents and offered a conclusion upon their import, the documents would be evidence but His Lordship’s conclusion would not. Similarly where a witness had been interviewed by the Nimmo Smith commission, or provided a statement, the former judge’s views on that would not be evidence, but the witness statement would be.
Mr Lunny, the Compliance Officer, was acting as prosecutor. Effectively Lord Nimmo Smith played the role of a senior detective co-ordinating an investigation, but not actually obtaining any evidence himself. In a criminal trial, where the officer in charge of the investigation has taken no part in the accumulation of the evidence, then their relevance as a witness is very small at best. It is up to the judge or the jury to decide what the totality of evidence means as far as guilt or innocence is concerned.
Therefore whilst I am sure that Lord Nimmo Smith’s report was on Mr Lunny’s table as he went through his presentation, ticking off the relevant parts as he led the primary evidence, the Report itself was not “relevant” evidence for the Panel. It is likely that, in discussion prior to the hearing, Mr Lunny and the solicitor for Rangers FC agreed whether the Nimmo Smith report would be used or not.
Mr Regan said prior to the Panel sitting “The report will now be used as evidence and forwarded to a Judicial Panel for consideration and determination as per the protocol.“ The presentation of the case of course was independent of him, and whilst the Report would have formed the basis for the charges laid against Rangers FC and Mr Whyte, it was not evidence itself, as agreed between the parties.
The second aspect which accords with this explanation is the precise phrase used by Mr Regan. He said, after the decision, “These findings were presented to the Judicial Panel Tribunal.”
He did not say that the report was presented, rather that the findings were. As the findings would form the basis for the “charges” admitted by Rangers FC, then to that extent the Nimmo Smith report played a part in the proceedings.
This issue has relevance now for the forthcoming SPL proceedings involving player payments and registrations which might have broken the rules. To great clamour and consternation from Ibrox direction, Harper MacLeod, the widely respected and highly rated form of solicitors, have carried out an investigation for the SPL into Rangers FC.
Mr Green has made clear that, as far as possible, the case will be fought, and no past titles will be stripped if he can do anything about it. Expect calls for the Harper MacLeod report to be produced.
However, it is in exactly the same position as the Nimmo Smith report was, except this time the accused is not accepting guilt. In that case, the relevant documents and witnesses will need to attend for scrutiny and examination.
On the basis that the First Tier Tax Tribunal, which looked at different but related issues, took many days to conclude, it is highly likely that the SPL case will not have a quick conclusion.
As a final aside, I must compliment Mr Green. All of the media speculation about punishment in the event that the independent commission find guilt on the part of Rangers repeats the mantra from Ibrox that the most severe penalty, namely stripping of titles, is the aim of the SPL.
I suspect that the SPL might believe that too now, on the basis that something which the club and the fans oppose so vigorously must be a draconian penalty.
But, of all of the various penalties listed, stripping titles would not cost the Rangers FC a single penny. The issue has already seen the supporters unite behind their team. Even if the commission finds the case proven, and as a result Rangers lose some of their historic titles, this will be seen by the Ibrox faithful as yet more treachery by the football authorities. Bearing in mind that the SPL rules allow various penalties, including the power to expel the club, impose unlimited fines and place a registration embargo on the club, altering the history books is the best thing for Rangers as a business, rather than a penalty which affects them just now.
Posted by Paul McConville – www.scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com
Fritz Agrandoldteam says:
August 12, 2012 at 14:43
and do have any proof of that? Please where the evidence
Enfakid says:
August 12, 2012 at 15:40
and do have any proof of that? Please where the evidence
=====
So far as I am aware, there is no minimum limit for a theft prosecution under Common Law in England. I have looked quickly at the Theft Act 1968 (a UK act)- no limit there, either. If you believe there IS a minimum limit for a theft prosecution, perhaps YOU should provide a link? It’s very hard to prove a negative- well impossible really.
Ray Charles.
Thanks for the reply to my inebriated musings, in the cold light of day ( where’s my shades ) i realise you are correct to state that HMRC endorsed the newco’s birth. My hope is that this is to allow certain shadowy figures to lay claims on assets of the newco and HMRC will step in then and catch everybody in a big sting.
Is this possible if it can be proved that CW or minty is involved in the newco through ibrox ownership, TicketUs, third party investment, or in some other convoluted way.
Could HMRC have a watchful eye on Trfc, even long after the liquidation of rfc has been completed, and nail anyone if it turns out many years later that planned to move assets from HMRC’s reach.
Enfakid says:
August 12, 2012 at 14:14
It was I understand poorly addressed, however the point is still valid iif you are earning 1 m pounds a year why risk it for 30k?
____________________________________________________________________
Because that’s the kind of person you (Souness) are! Greed and arrogance personified! Plus, of course, he would not percieve that there was any risk whatsoever, Murray would have convinced him of that.
Ok lets see your triumphant case against rangers new co.
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
August 12, 2012 at 15:57
absolute nonsense
We’ve got another one by the looks of things, as the mask has just slipped
Please ignore
enfakid – instead of doubting the story JUST because the sums involved (initially 30K – RTC says there is more) ask yourslef, why would someone do something for something that for him si a paltry amount. Instead of dismissing it, think along the lines of doing favours for folks that you already owe or possibly other untangibles given.
Just because he is a purportedly millionaire does not mean these guys run away from a quick 30K. After all for CO, its just enough for a night out.
If Souness had not recieved 30K, we would knwo all about it. Fact that McLeish rather than Souness or Cardigan was wheeled out to defent the honour says a lot for their “integrity”.
Enfakid says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:04
Allyjambo Taxpayer says:
August 12, 2012 at 15:57
absolute nonsense
__________________________________________________________________
OK let’s see your triumphant case in favour of Graeme Souness being anything other than arrogant and greedy! I’m sure there’s a lot more adjectives available to describe him, very few, if any, complimentary.
Lord Wobbly says:
August 12, 2012 at 15:08
alex thomson
@alextomo
Souness’s lawyer will ask him soonest why he got EBT 30k 10y after leaving fmr RFC? If Souness answers/refuses, you’ll know either way.
Ha Ha absolutely definitive Joker…..
Further thoughts on the phoenix issue…
Wanted to understand how a phoenix can be legal and where it could stray into illegality – found this:
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud_protection/phoenix_company_fraud
So formation of a phoenix company is not unusual or a problem in and of itself. However, phoenix company fraud might occur “when directors abuse the phoenix company arrangement by transferring the assets of the failing company below their market value before insolvency. By doing this, the fraudulent directors reduce the funds available to creditors when the original company becomes insolvent. As a result, the creditors are left out of pocket for the goods or services they supplied. ”
Does this ring a bell with anyone here?
Ding dong.
So are we witnessing just such a fraud when the assets of the entity formerly known as Rangers have been sold off at a price that does not seem to have any bearing on the true market value?
Surely, as a major creditor, HMRC have an interest in ensuring there is best possible return against their loss(es)?
Surely any of the other creditors must be likewise concerned?
Surely this sale of assets will be put under intense scrutiny by BDO?
I am probably just slow on the uptake and this has probably been discussed already. Apologies if this is obvious or has been heavily covered previously. What I know about business law is that which I have managed to pick up from the more learned posters on this blog (and RTC)
Efankid – how about askign your new CEO CG where the stadoum renaming money he promised is – where the share issue details he promsied last week – where the Euro signings are – where the players transfer fees are goign to – where the season ticket money is going to…
instead of wasting our time here defending Souness for some unknown reason!.
campsiejoe says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:10
1 0 Rate This
We’ve got another one by the looks of things, as the mask has just slipped
Please ignore
==========
Quite right, though so tempting to reply, but- DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!
Amazing how quickly the mask slips, and the beast emerges. This one straight from Mordor! They will send cleverer orcs next time, so let’s be on our guard.
Enfakid says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:13
0 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
August 12, 2012 at 15:08
alex thomson
@alextomo
Souness’s lawyer will ask him soonest why he got EBT 30k 10y
after leaving fmr RFC? If Souness answers/refuses, you’ll know
either way.
Ha Ha absolutely definitive Joker….
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks. But its ‘comedic genius’ if you please. 😀
Not sure what that’s got to do with Alex Thomson asking questions about an EBT received by Graeme Souness 10 years after he left the former Rangers FC though.
ExiledCelt says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:18
I think anyone trying to defend Souness is wasting their own time, but perhaps it’s better than asking the questions that need asking, when you know you won’t like the answer (if you actually get one)!
At least Enfakid has got one point correct. It is a NewCo.
Was speaking to a former rangers fan yesterday which was very interesting in a general sort of a way.
Got a bit of an insight into how some of them are viewing the current predicament of the soon to be liquidated club/company and Sevoc’s Lazarus type resurrection.
Now the guy is a retired (I think) professional (not footballer) and seems to be a wee bit confused at times with what appears to be a sort of dementia/alzheimers but in his more lucid moments he was pretty much an obviously intelligent thoughtful and decent guy.
He made a couple of really interesting comments/observations.
1) WS is up to his neck in the financial downfall of his club (this came from absolutely no prompting from me).
2) The 38,000 who turned up at Ibrox the other night was to do with rolodgion not football.
I asked him to explain this statement and he said ‘who would go to watch a bankrupt football team in those sorts of numbers, he said it was to do with who these ‘fans’ are.
I thought that this explanation was really quite revealing coming as it did from someone clearly on the inside or who knew what he was talking about-he did tell me he has been a rangers man his entire life.
3) GS is a committed Chrostion and a good honest and decent man. The punter said that he knew GS personally and had done for a number of years but that he (the punter) couldn’t forgive GS for the miss against Brighton (?)
Think he was a wee bit confused there, GS played for Brighton, think the miss the guy was referring to was ragers vs Cologne in the EC wasn’t it?
Far be it for a new kid to offer advice but trolls equate success !
As a new lurker in these parts, I am delighted you are attracting trolls. If you weren’t unravelling the webs of deceit through which they live, they wouldn’t be here. I must commend you on a fantastic job & look forward to your continued expose’s.
Truth always wins… !
CrazyHorse at 12:37 [edit]
stevensanph at 11:07
‘No more than 5 minutes later the thread was deleted… it seems, even when the good Rangers fans put their head above the parapet, that they get shot straight back down by those in charge!’
________
Stevensanph, therein lies the problem. These guys on FollowFollow, Rangers Media etc, are not in charge, they THINK they are. I despair for the good Bears who are regularly represented in the Media by people like Dingwall and Graham. I am puzzled that the Club itself often seems to give them some sort of credence. Who are these people? How many Bears do they really represent?
I think it’s time that a decent Bear/s set up a brave new blog along the lines of RTC & TSFM. Get all the discussions that need to be had about RFC, football and otherwise, out in the open in a civilised manner. This needs to be done by Bears for the good of your club, Scottish football and Scottish society in general.
What about it Danish Pastry??
_______________________
CrazyHorse – commendable post and idea.
All I know, and that from this blog is there`s lots more than FF and RM. My impression is that they all compete to be the most loyal of the loyal leaving little room for reasoned debate especially of wider issues.
Possibly DP or others could submit an article to TSFM for consideration? – Just a thought. Would wager poster comments from them could shed intelligent new light on the SDM/CW/TU background saga for example.
longtimelurker says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:39
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s somewhat ironic that you have to type ‘rolodgion’ and ‘chrostion’ in order to avoid the Moderator.
There continues to be considerable speculation as to the sale of RFC(IA) assets for a paltry £5.5m. Comments earlier today are suggesting that the amount paid was way beneath the market value, partly ensuring that the creditors were pretty much shafted. Such accusations or suggestions surely bring the reputations of those who carried out the valuations into serious doubt. In addition the Professional Body to which these individuals or firms belong, The Royal Insitute of Chartered Surveyors, must surely be concerned at this adverse publicity. Is it not time that the RICS stepped in and ordered a full enquiry into the Firms involved, and how they arrived at their valuations. The methodoly to be adopted in valuing such assets is clearly laid down in their professional manuals, The Red Book ,when I last checked. Was its guidance adhered to and just how did they arrive at such a figure ? Failure to act will surely bring the RICS into serious disrepute. I am not holding my breath.
“the struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”
~milan kundera
the msm and the scottish football authorities are busily engaged in a revisionism which not only suggests an unbroken timeline between RFC(NIL) and
newco/rosemary’s baby/theArtistsFormerlyKnownAsThePeepil.
soon the farm will be renamed manor farm and everyone will forget why it was ever called anything else.
the “history” so precious to the followers of this or that govan club will be intact and unbroken.
be careful what you wish for.
the more the newco associate themselves with RFC(NIL) the easier it will be for ticketus to make a case for the season ticket money(or money for tickets for seats at events as ibrox, as the contract refers to them) belong to them after it has been gathered by their man charles le vert.
the followers of the govan club seem to trust monsieur le vert with their money despite the goings on of recent times.
when ticketus come knocking and claim a phoenix structure,
then
the business carried on at the same address,
pursuing the same trade,
with the same name,
having gained entry to the league by tranfer of oldco’s membership and (defective) accounts,
accepting the football debts of the oldco,
accepting the football authorities penalties on the oldco,
and holding it out as the same entity
might find it difficult to argue in court it is a new entity.
will it be so easy to argue a reversal of mark anthony’s observation that
“the evil men do lives after them,
the good they doterred with their bones”?
A plumber recently got a year in the gaol for bumping the tax on £50K
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2179814/Plumber-Melvyn-Careswell-jailed-A-YEAR-50-000-cash-hand-tax-dodge.html
Longtimelurker, your ex Rangers fans is quite correct. Gordon Smith missed the sitters of all sitters in the last few minutes of the FA cup final for Brighton against Man Utd. Brighton lost the replay. It is what he is infamous for and know throughout English football. They may not remember his name but you mention that cup final and they go – oh yeah that bloke.
Scotland Behave says:
August 12, 2012 at 17:31
1 0 Rate This
Longtimelurker, your ex Rangers .
****************************************************************************************************************
Thanks, I just thought that the guy was off on one again 🙂
He was doing that a lot through the conversation.
re scotland behave at 17.31
the brighton fanzine is called “smith must score” in reference to the commentary on the game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d4-lFjGnUA
The Smith miss.
McCormack, Black added to Scotland squad
Sunday, 12 August 2012
Craig Levein has called up Ross McCormack and Ian Black for Wednesday’s Vauxhall International Challenge Match against Australia at Easter Road.
The National Coach added the Leeds United striker and Rangers midfielder after confirmation of four withdrawals.
James Forrest (groin), Jamie Mackie (calf), Phil Bardsley (ankle) and Graham Dorrans (personal reasons) are all unavailable.
McCormack rejoins the squad having last featured in the Carling Nations Cup against Republic of Ireland, while Black will be hoping for his first full international cap having played in a 3-0 B International victory against Northern Ireland in 2009.
Bjay says
Is the RICS obliged to investigate their members if a complaint is made? If so does it have to be from someone who had employed one of their members or can anyone raise a concern?
Any CSs on here who can explain?
Lord Wobbly says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:51
9 0 Rate This
longtimelurker says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:39
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It’s somewhat ironic that you have to type ‘rolodgion’ and ‘chrostion’ in order to avoid the Moderator.
come to think of it, your lordship did quite well to get away with Moderator ! 🙂
Guys, I think you are barking up the wrong tree with the surveyors
As I understand it the properties were valued and those values were well in excess of what they were eventually sold for
The valuations I think are hiding somewhere in one of the Double Ds reports
The real culprits here are the Double Ds who sold the assets for the drisory £5.5 million, and according to them £2.75 million of that was for player registrations
The stadium etc were actually sold for £1.5 million
I’d like to think BDO will do something about all of this, but I’m not holding my breath, as I’m beginning to think that all of the Establishment, and I do mean all, have closed ranks in this sordid affair
I dont think that the valuation has any relevance,It was the deal to sell for £5.5mill. that needs scrutiny.You can put any value you want on anything,but it is only worth what someone is prepared to pay.The fix was in between D&P and Yorkie/ticketus. BDO will get them.
campsiejoe @18.39.pm Snap.Wish I had waited for your post.
Tic 6709 @ 18:44
Great minds my friend 🙂
Just see on Twitter that Ian Black of D3 Deadco has been added to the Scotland squad.
Unbelievable that a talentless thug like him, playing in the bottom tier of our league structure, should make it into the squad. I didn’t have much faith in Levein before this decision, now he just looks like an even bigger disaster then before.
hingmae @ 18:54
Levein has just caved in to all of the criticism from Sevco and the MSM for leaving out Wallace, the only world class player in Scotland
bjay says:
August 12, 2012 at 16:59
&
Captain Haddock at 18:25
Wayhaaaay! Someone new to e-mail.
I you have not done so already, would you mind if I borrowed from your texts and e-mailed the RICS, raising these points?
viktor komorowski says: August 12, 2012 at 17:20
“the struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”
~milan kundera
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Absolutely spot on viktor. We have to keep talking about it to friends/colleagues etc to make sure it stays in people’s minds. For me, as I’ve said before, we have to keep the tax/money stuff at the start of the conversation – as that’s the thing that will get most people’s backs up – the other stuff is just important to us.
Moira Gordon in the Scotland on Sunday today has a good kick at RFC(ia) for not paying their debts – and we need more of that. [She obviously didn’t get the memo]
But we need it to become a political story too. The silence from the Scottish Parliament has been deafening, alongside the Scottish Governemnt’s silence on FOIs.
We need the Finance Cttee or the Audit Cttee to announce an enquiry into the financial scandal (and the Sports Cttee on the football side) – but where there should be anger and activity – there is silence. The governing party has a majority in every cttee – so sadly it is up to them and them alone what gets discussed. Surely one of them is brave enough to speak out against the party line of ‘we need Rangers not just for Scottish football but Scottish society as well’?
Bestdressedchicken.
Feel free. Keep me posted.
bestdressedchicken @ 19:03
I refer you to the posts by tic6709 @ 18.41 and my own at 18.39
The surveyors are not at fault here
Ah, campsie & tic, just saw your replies..so it was never valued at £5.5m by anyone other than D&P? I take your point.
Captain Haddock says:
August 12, 2012 at 18:25
2 0 Rate This
Bjay says
Is the RICS obliged to investigate their members if a complaint is made? If so does it have to be from someone who had employed one of their members or can anyone raise a concern?
Any CSs on here who can explain?
====================
Each practice has a complaints handling procedure which is made known to each client upon engagement as part of the terms.
The complaint is handled by a designated member of staff.
In the case of sole practitioners, a designated third party would handle it.
So, the complaint is made by the party engaging the surveyors and is subsequently handled internally.
More or less.
Campsiejoe @ 19.01
Lee Wallace is not a great player, no doubt about that! However, the guy at least attempts to be a player, occasionally passing the ball to team mates, attempting to tackle for the ball at least sometimes rather than just kicking, stamping and lunging at anything that moves. Black is a real Deadco player, he has that inbuilt belief that Iain Ferguson used to have, the belief that no matter what level the crime committed no punishment would be forthcoming….and to be fair none usually was or is.
Surely the Joint Liquidators were required to have a valuation carried out by a qualified surveyor prior to selling off Ibrox and Murray Park.D+P are not to my knowledge Chartered Surveyors and would needed to outsource this task. I think we all agree that the eventual sale price appears far too low. I thank everyone for their contributions to this, however I think we all agree that this is just something else that BDO will need to have a look at. They in due course will have a valuation carried out, and depending on the outcome take the appropriate action. At that stage I would suggest RICS may wish to get involved, if not them The Fraud Squad.
CrazyHorse says:
August 12, 2012 at 12:37
30 0 Rate This
stevensanph says at 11:07
I think it’s time that a decent Bear/s set up a brave new blog along the lines of RTC & TSFM. Keep it anonymous (intimidation will be rife), strictly monitor it and encourage reasoned comment from supporters of other clubs …
——-
Interesting thoughts lads. This sort of thing has to be pushed forward from those on the ground. I am not local anymore. My opinions have also changed quite a bit over the course of this story. I want nothing to do with this new club. I see as an illegal tax dodge and worse. That it’s all got this far beggars belief.
If someone set up an F.C. Rangers of Glasgow akin to the protest club in Manchester, I’d see a bit of light in that. The protest being not about a US debt tycoon but a protest against all the non-football stuff – the hate songs, the inane obsession with being British, the fixation with Irish politics, and the intolerance. In my huge foreign naivety I actually thought things had changed on the blue side of Glasgow, but the nutters still seem to be running the show.
To be honest though, it will take someone with a high profile to push for what you’re proposing. I don’t see it anytime soon, especially as the propaganda machines of the FF and VB types are in full flow. In the meantime, I think we should follow this story, and not lose focus. It might eventually bring a painful kind of salvation. And if that means the total dismantling of something unfit for pupose, so be it. There are issues much bigger than football at stake in this.
Apart from that, there’s clubs worthy of support. I’m enjoying the BBC Alba coverage of the SPL I pick up. Aberdeen were pretty good yesterday. I saw McGeouch was a star in the making against Real Madrid, and Peterhead were superb. I see a lot of positives. Tomorrow I’m going to try and book a few tickets for Celtic’s match against Helsingborgs which is quite near me (no idea if I’ll be able to buy any seats among the away fans though). I think we need to crack the mould, think alternatively. If I was in Glasgow I’d be off to see the Thistle, Queen’s Park or the Celts. With Rangers gone you can enjoy supporting you’re countrymen no matter what strip they wear, even though it’s not ‘your team’. In one sense it’s a liberation.
Trying to catch up after being out all day and it looks like a few threads going on.
I’m interested in the phoenix issues and a number of the posts seem to be saying that HMRC are giving that the all clear – if this is true is it only for what HMRC are owed or does this apply to all creditors of the deid one? I think if I was one of the other creditors I would be absolutely raging that the deid one reincarnates into.. eh .. Rangers and gets away with it.
Wrong in so many ways and totally totally shameless. Worst of all I have heard absolutely no mention of these creditors in any of the mainstream for months.
Craig Levein demonstrates everything wrong with Scottish football in selecting that thug Black. An absolute clown.
And to think Levein used to have a backbone and was one of the few brave enough to speak up against oldco’s ‘winning ways’ shame on you.
Danish Pastry at 19.35
Fanastic post!
Is there going to be a boycott of the Scotland game on Wednesday in protest at the SFA’s pandering to Sevco?
HMRC via BDO will have a say in this affair.
If the duel contracts are proved Scottish Football today with all its financial problems will be in a better place. Better to have honest poverty than corrupt success.
Well, when you wont play £12million premiership strikers, you’ve got to play 6 cloggers like black in your midfield. After all, it’s all about what rangers want, isn’t it Mr Levein, like boydy and greegsy and wee baz-y back in contention for the squad despite chucking it or showing childish contempt to the nation. Just another reason i cant support the scottish national team despite my patriotism. If black had international ambition he could have agreed a contract at hearts or at another club at an appropriate level.
So Levein is continuing the long Scotland manager tradition of picking players as soon as they move to ‘Rangers’ even though they are in the 3rd division.
He really is a disgrace.
I suppose we have another 4-6-0 debacle to look forward to on Wednesday.
Levein out now.
There’s Only One Willie Miller says:
August 12, 2012 at 19:58
0 0 Rate This
Is there going to be a boycott of the Scotland game on Wednesday in protest at the SFA’s pandering to Sevco?
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Sevconians aren’t going because Wallace was not picked. Others have previously said they are boycotting Scotland games because of SFA inaction against Cheats FC. You may not go because Ian Black is selected.
When there is a poor crowd which of these 3 do you think the MSM will select as the reason?
There’s Only One Willie Miller says:
August 12, 2012 at 19:58
2 1 Rate This
Is there going to be a boycott of the Scotland game on Wednesday in protest at the SFA’s pandering to Sevco?
—————
That is a yes from me.
What about thon wee Peterhead guy that played him aff the park.
It would not be hard for oldco Rangers fans who now support sevco to boycott Scotland, they never ever supported our beloved country. They are a mixed up bunch who are not affiliated to any country.
bjay says:
August 12, 2012 at 19:27
Surely the Joint Liquidators were required to have a valuation carried out by a qualified surveyor prior to selling off Ibrox and Murray Park.D+P are not to my knowledge Chartered Surveyors and would needed to outsource this task. I think we all agree that the eventual sale price appears far too low. I thank everyone for their contributions to this, however I think we all agree that this is just something else that BDO will need to have a look at. They in due course will have a valuation carried out, and depending on the outcome take the appropriate action. At that stage I would suggest RICS may wish to get involved, if not them The Fraud Squad.
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Did Corsica not post that liquidation value of assets was circa £15-20m?.
i don’t know much about company takeovers,only what I read in the papers or see on some of the Sky channels.What I think,though, is that D&P will argue that £5.5m was a fair price because CG also took over the floating charge of over £20m.We still aren’t sure who holds it but i’m pretty sure CG knows!
Canny wait to see big Kevin Kyle lumbering about in a Sevcoland top and smashing into players like a wardrobe falling down the stairs.
if Levein ever plays another 4-6-0, i will never watch another Scotland game again,
Is there any indication when his Lordship (not Wobbly) will call D&P to court?
There’s Only One Willie Miller says:
August 12, 2012 at 20:08
So Levein is continuing the long Scotland manager tradition of picking players as soon as they move to ‘Rangers’ even though they are in the 3rd division.
He really is a disgrace.
I suppose we have another 4-6-0 debacle to look forward to on Wednesday.
+++++++++++
That’s a bit harsh! He might experiment with 6-4-0, now he’s got Black in midfield.
bjay @ 19:27
In the CVA report from the Double Ds, they said that the Independent Valuers, Lambert and Smith had valued the properties at £4.59 million
The valuation was not carried out by the Double Ds
For more information see Paul McConville’s blog
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/duff-phelps-july-report-re-rangers-football-club-plc-review-part-1-incredible-shrinking-fixed-assets/
Levien’s selection of Ian Black is not Levien’s own selection. This is the SFA blazers at work behind the scenes so they can appease the hordes. I posted on here a long back that when Jock Stein was caretaker manager back in the sixties the SFA picked the squad. Before Jock Stein’s first match the SFA handed him the 22 man squad – there were 12 Rangers players in that squad. The same ethic is at work here. If you look at his attributes;
1. Skill – you’re having a laugh
2. Vision – Blinkered
3. Pace – Slower than he looks
4. Tackling – Thuggery
5. Commitment – Ok, he runs around a bit
The above do not in anyway say to me he is international class, especially after huffing and puffing against the might of Peterheid (no derespect to them). Why suddenly draft him in now ahead of promising Under 21’s. Aren’t we trying to blood the youth, wasn’t that Levein’s manta for the past 2 years. Shocking selection, should outer for what it is.
Well this game is my first opportunity to let the blazers know my views on their corruption
I will boycott the match
Risable, contemptable, predictable.
All words to describe the new SFA corruption companion, Craig Levein, and the decision to bring Ian Black into the Scotland squad. The mockery made of Scottish football is now complete.
Pure and simple, an attempt at pandering to the knuckle-dragging classes, hoping in vain to bring them back into the international cash pot, a policy of appeasement to those who want the rest of Scotland to beg for their forgiveness.
And equally, just another attempt to validate the SFA position that this new thing Sevco is the same as the one that died. He will be stripped, and listed as Ian Black (Rangers). He will be listed as the 10,000th (or whatever) cap from that club. No need to wait until any trophies are handed out to find out.
And we will be told that it is not because of any of this, it will be because of his superb performances at the end of last season, when he got a cup winners medal. Because all our heads button up the back.
If this is Levein’s decision on his own, he is a disgrace, both in footballing terms and in public relations terms. If this is a “commitee” decision, they are all a disgrace.
The Scotland national team, as far as I’m concerned, now shares the same grave as Rangers. I have zero interest in them, which as a Scot, is a real shame. I wish nothing but ill-will to those that have pushed me to this position, and who are forcing me to abandon something that I have always got real enjoyment from in the past.
But abandon it I will, because I will not be taken for a fool by this contemptable, risable, predictable bunch.
when does blacky withdraw from squad with injury ? has a big game at weekend…..
Even before Black’s inclusion, it was my intention to refuse to attend the upcoming Scotland games as a personal protest against the gerrymandering. To me, this seemed the best way to protest as it did not give the MSM/Regan etc ammunition to say “See, we told you we needed RFC” if I demonstrated instead by not attending SPL/SFL matches.
Tartan Army not happy as well.
http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=139309&st=0
tearsofjoy says:
August 12, 2012 at 20:48
1 9 Rate This
I’d have thought that fans who revelled in the thuggery of Lennon and Sutton would be more circumspect in slagging off Ian Black.
But apparently not. Black is a novice compared to Neil Lennon’s
thuggery & viciousness. But then he played for one of the OF so
was off limits.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ian Black received two red cards last season.
Neil Lennon received one throughout his entire career.
Boycotting Scotland games?
Then please let them know why, for the avoidance of doubt.
Thank you
Black’s inclusion in a Scotland squad makes me recall an earlier post I made regarding Lord Cardigan of HeeHaw.
If as is being suggested that he was still getting “loans” while at Hampden working as Scotland manager, the very fact that he is being paid from a 3rd party makes you wonder why. The reason is a Scotland manager can increase the value of a player. Say for instance you have a hacker called Black and were looking to perhaps punt him on if times got tough – the best thign that could happen for you is if he were to be a “Scottish International”.
Celtic got done by Luxemburgo who took money form agents to play idiots like Rafale Scheidt so that no-brians like John Barnes could claim they were signing a seasoned international form Brazil – and surprise surprise no one from Portugal or Italy wanted him….
Now if Watty is was getting loans, was the deal to increase the value of any Scotland player – like Broadfoot or Whittaker by picking him despite being rank in a Rangers (NIL) shirt.
Not sayign Levein is getting any loasn – but if thsi is not his pick he needs to say so – if its being foreced on him as part of some dealings, then say so. Otherwise, tar, brush etc.
When there is financial doping on a grand scale and a systematic failure to register players by the rules the standard response in world football is expulsion of that team from the league.
Why is Scotland so corrupt that such an inevitable consequence seems unthinkable?
Why will the Nimmo report, The SPL enquiry and the Independent panel reports not come to such a conclusion?
Why does one team not suffer the consequences of cheating?
Why does David Longmuir categorically state that no league cup titles will be stripped no matter what the inquiries find?
Can anyone clearly show here the connections between The Rangers FC and the Scottish Football Establishment so that the stench of corruption is laid bare.
Fans Against Corruption says:
August 12, 2012 at 20:55
‘Pure and simple, an attempt at pandering to the knuckle-dragging classes, hoping in vain to bring them back into the international cash pot, a policy of appeasement to those who want the rest of Scotland to beg for their forgiveness.
And equally, just another attempt to validate the SFA position that this new thing Sevco is the same as the one that died. He will be stripped, and listed as Ian Black (Rangers). He will be listed as the 10,000th (or whatever) cap from that club. No need to wait until any trophies are handed out to find out.’
—-
The SFA have already shown ample evidence of their inability to resist the insidious pressure, from deeply corrupt members, to favour “The Rangers.”
I think you’re spot on with your analysis.
I think Craig L should do some walking away, for the sake of his own hitherto undoubted integrity.
There’s Only One Willie Miller says:
August 12, 2012 at 19:58
I think while Ogilvie, Regan & Doncaster are in their posts, ALL Scotland games should be boycotted.