A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
Time for an imaginative solution – merge Hearts, ICBINR and the HMRC to make HMRFC then Hector can play everyone 4 times a season and collect their tax as he does it 🙂
Online Gaming Site Ralph Toppings William Hill (Yes connected to Las Vegas Sands), says:
Obviously William Hill would love to see of the Scottish side go all the way to a place (if not the top) in the 2014 World Cup finals. But one thing it is going to be, is a fascinating journey.
Campbell Ogilvie, who is President of the Scottish Football Association is in turn delighted to have Will Hill as their official sponsor – heck they need all the help they can get – but the brand has already showed robust commitment to Scottish football, so this is not a new in-road for them. The online gambling company seriously are one of the biggest Scottish football supporters. This new sponsorship merely cements their position as such even more.
Good Afternoon.
There are more than a few interesting points raised in Stewart Cosgrove’s opener, which becomes all the more significant following the recent events at Hearts.
If I can start with that situation, I would just like to say that I have no desire to see Heart of Midlothian or any other football club go to the wall. Further, despite all sorts of strange rhetoric over the years, I think it is widely accepted that Vladimir Romanov has put a fair degree of his own money– or could that be his bank’s money– into Hearts and under no circumstances could he continue to do that indefinitely.
However, beyond that point, it must surely be the case that someone somewhere in the Scottish Sports Journalism world could in fact have seen that the Hearts writing was on the wall– in exactly the same way that the demise of Rangers Football Club was an inevitability given that club’s financial history. Further, there is no doubt that Mr Romanov and his management and financial team must have known for some time that the financial model at Hearts was not sustainable.
In that sense, Mr Romanov is culpable– and should have cut the cloth accordingly long before now.
When HMRC serve a winding up petition, it only does so after it has already taken a series of steps by way of warning letter and prior demands. This correspondence puts the debtor on notice that HMRC are about to weld the big stick and put you out of business if you do not pay.
Of course, HMRC do not really want to put anyone out of business, but of course they cannot afford to let a business continue to trade and amass ever greater arrears of PAYE, VAT and other taxes. At that point HMRC must act— and by act I mean take all steps possible to collect the tax that is due. Only when those attempts fail do they seek to apply the ultimate sanction of liquidation.
Even then, when HMRC say they will not grant any more time to pay or reach a deal, the debtor can go to the court and ask for the petition to be continued to allow them time to settle. This can usually be for up to 42 days, during which time both parties continue to talk and liaise— normally.
Further, in this procedure HMRC can be true to their word in that they can withold their consent to any continuation, yet at the same time they can shrug their shoulders and technically not object to such a motion leaving it to the court to decide. Such a course of action is different to consenting— in legal speak at least.
So all is not doomed for Hearts– there is a way forward— but it means a major rethink going forward.
That rethink needs to take place no matter what happens with Hearts because the Scottish Football model is bust– and has been bust as bust can be for some time.
David Murray’s arrival at Rangers and his seeming ability to buy a new Million pound player every six weeks at the start of his tenure has slewed Scottish Football totally ever since.
As many will know, I despise the phrase “Diddy teams” whilst at the same time acknowledging the right of the supporters of various clubs to label themselves with that badge. However, it was in the shadow of the Murray Ibrox miracle that many of those smaller clubs decided to go down the path of perennial spending on wages and players in a forlorn attempt to hang on to the Rangers coat tails— and to be fair, to the coat tails of Celtic in the Martin O’Neill era!
Given the turnover of many clubs that was always going to be impossible. Just as Murray’s financial model was never going to work for Rangers– so it was never going to work for Scottish Football.
Whatsmore, I am convinced that there was a clear conflict of interest in the Murray/Rangers/HBOS/ football axis. HBOS– previously Bank of Scotland–had invested so much money into Rangers and /or MIH that it would be impossible for the bank to have absolutely no regard for the trading conditions under which their largest footballing debtors operated. Given that the same bank funded nearly all other clubs and at one point sponsored the league, they were in a unique position to gauge the monetary trends in Scottish Football and gain access to all sorts of footballing financial information.
I still question whether some clubs were financed only so far whilst ensuring that the biggest debtor could maximise revenues and returns for the bank.
Certainly there have been some odd financial transactions, and a strange number of players who came to Ibrox from other Scottish teams who played very few games for Rangers. These are players who strengthened the league opposition when playing against Rangers, but who obviously never kicked a ball against Rangers whilst earning a wage from them.
Yet no one in Scottish Football Journalism said anything against Murray other than the odd word from perhaps Graham Spiers from time to time. Yet each day we are bombarded with the deatils of the Dax, the FTSE and the Dow Jones. Financial journalists fill the pages of the Sunday supplements yet none chose to look at the football finances– and certainly not those of David Murray– in any meaningful detail.
The sports guys cry that they are not financial journalists and the financial’s don’t cover sports– despite sport and finance being inextricably linked in all sorts of ways. Who would have thunk it?
Stuart Cosgrove’s depiction of journalists taunting one another over who did and who did not get to dine with Murray is both comedic and tragic. Pathetic is another word that comes to mind. Did Murray only pour claret for sports writers, or were there financial guys on the guest list too?
And stop and think on this. Dinner was in Jersey!! Jersey– eh now what would David Murray be doing taking journalists to Jersey for? What is Jersey famous for? Why would a supposedly very rich Scottish businessman have an interest in Jersey– why not Arran or Milport or Benbecula?
Many years ago, I was invited to dinner in the Old East India club in St James’ Square London. My host was a publisher who revealed that he banked at the same bank as British Airways. He ventured that this particular branch looked after only 35 accounts with BA being the biggest. It did not take a maths degree to figure out that if my host was 35th on the list he was still a very VERY wealthy man.
In the course of dinner he explained that each year he took his board for Christmas Lunch or dinner to Jersey. They often spent some time at Jersey Pearl where tax free discounted jewellery could be picked up for loved ones at a huge discount. Of course other such tax free benefits were also available during the visit!! However, my host also stated categorically that ” These smaller islands off the coast of mainland Great Britain were not just for visiting– they were for deposits and withdrawals– at the most beneficial rate and with the maximum of discretion!”.
Now did none of the succulent lamb brigade not stop and consider exactly WHY David Murray would take them to such a place and question what he was doing there? When Rangers signed all sorts of big names yet released successive accounts in the naughties showing huge losses but proclaiming ever increasing sales in Merchandising, Season Books and so on– did no one question just what in God’s earth was keeping Rangers FC going financially and what there would be to do…… In Jersey?
No. In just the same way that near all and sundry predicted that Rangers PLC would enter into and exit out of Administration in around 4 weeks under Mad Craig Whyte, the journo’s swallowed the lamb and the financial baloney from the Murray camp– hook line and Jersey sinker!!!
It was this inability to question, this inability to see the inevitable that was ARMAGEDDON.
The Bank of Scotland started to run into trouble in 2006. Senior figures were already resigning hinting at big problems. Guys like Ian Fraser were already hinting at financial troubles in the banks– and eh– did anyone stop and ask exactly how someone got a nickname like “Fred the SHRED”?
Scottish Football has got to adapt. Mr Brown at St Johnstone may be too conservative, but to be fair his dad did not just splash the cash to follow the Rangers model or the Hearts model and good on him I say. Football is a social experience where originally Working class men gathered to enjoy time together and follow a team. It is not or should not be the domain for financial spivery, off shore accounting, financial advisers and mysterious press practices and gurus.
This is football– its about skill, blood, snotters, pies and bovril– even the corporate seats at Celtic Park still have pies and Bovril!!!
Of course it is different today– families women, boys and girlfriends all participate, play and support. However no one is served by fawning coverage of football people, football teams and football finances. All teams will have ups and downs and with the internet so readily available the public will be able to reach their own conclusions as to what has worked and what has failed—— because it will be the public who in the main can put the information out there especially if the press journalists won’t.
Dr Jim Hamill and I were at a recent discussion on the RTC blog and the winning of the Orwell Prize. The nature of the blog and the effect of the internet bampots were under discussion.
For me, the main benefit of the RTC blog was the sudden establishment of an on line working group who brought all sorts of talents to the one forum. This expertise was absolutely superb at unearthing, examining, analysing and explaining all sorts of Company Documents, Accounts, Company and Personal Profiles, Transactions between related and officially unrelated parties and so on. Many were Celtic fans– however many were not and there were a good number of well informed Rangers fans who brought very good analysis of what had happened at their club together with supporting information and comment.
It very quickly established that the pre agreed stories and by lines hinted at by Stewart Cosgrove were neither accurate nor necessarily even properly researched– if researched at all.
Now, to be plain, none of the contributors were to my knowledge paid journalists. They did not work to deadlines or within policies sent down from the newspaper masters on high. They did not depend on this line of enquiry for a living or a career– all of which is very different to the world of the day to day press man in any sector.
Yet Internet Bampottery showed that there was and still is a huge readership out there. However it is a readership that is in many respects intelligent and able to gather its own sources and reach its own conclusions. Sports journalists gathering in huddles to determine what they will and what they will not allow the public to read is a practice that belongs with the late Arthur Negus on the antiques Roadshow.
Then again, if you were one of those who went to Jersey for your dinner just to ensure that you were towing the Murray line, would only print what you were told and would never question whatever spin Mr Murray wanted delivering then perhaps you were selling your journalistic soul when you started jigging about the office and taunting others who were not invited?
Perhaps under those circumstances , those whose journalistic soul could be purchased with lamb, claret and the odd jersey pearl were more suited to one of the late Arthur’s other shows.
It was called Going for a song!
BRTH: Superb post as ever.
Have you had a look at the Las Vegas Sands connection? I would greatly appreciate your opinion.
As soon as we ( the fans ) scuppered the plan to have sevco in the SPL ( then div1 ) it was obvious that this was unacceptable to sevco, its fans, the governing bodies and the media. Ever since then we have had to put up with the afore mentioned whinging, moaning and squealing that we would pay the price, we needed sevco, the game would die, listen to their unadulterated joy at every manufactured propaganda piece regarding finances or attendance figures.
The truth is that sevco are struggling badly with their new found irrelevance and must return to the higher reaches of the game or they will go under.
Too bad.
Why do these muppets and puppets not realise that the fans have spoken, the message was clear, no reconstruction that sees sevco elevated will be supported. Get it through your thick heads, the fans have the power to make or break our own clubs and we will use this power again if we are rail roaded into some filthy deal to accomodate the most corrupt among us.
No
No
No
No
No
Not happening.
Never.
( totally sickened by the recent revelations of cover ups in institutions that proves that once you give those with power carte blanche to escape punishment, they escalate their corruption and grow stronger )
Agrajag says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:53
0 0 Rate This
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:36
For the record I argued with McCoist that I would support a “Hearts” newco but that would be my least preferred option and really it wouldn’t be HMFC it would be a new club ie HMFC-Lite (minus the 138 years history). 90% of people polled posted broadly similar opinions much to McCoists chagrin. He actually wants Hearts to newco -justifying his own clubs actions me-thinks?
=================================
Misery loves company.
They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.
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Aye except that much to his upset very few of us are in agreement with him. Spectacularly also wants to avoid any discussion of Ogilvie & G.Smith’s roles as office bearers of the SFA and McClelland & Bains similar roles at the SPL. These guys are totally complicit yet meant to be upholding the rules in fairness to all clubs.
I’ve suggested that such corruption should see a club be punished with a time spent out of football and if they really are the same club as he’s given numerous examples of why they are including agreeing to punishments then that should be applied to Charles Green club?
You won’t be surprised that he completely blanked that line of questioning and has reverted to banging the newco solution drum.
Quite bizarre that a fan of another club would make 15 repetitive posts on a thread on which only 95 have been made thus far – a large percentage his. 🙂
Like somone said the other day I too should have stuck in harder at the RTC school of Insolvency.
Is it not the case that Vlad is pretty much going to get Hee Haw for Hearts in relation to the £20m plus debt regardless of what happens?
He hasn’t taken steps to reign in the spending over the years and all he really has as assets are the players and the stadium.
If Hearts can hold on until Xmas then have a fire sale and clear out the high earners, give the proceeds of the sale to the taxman and go with a squad of youngsters.
That then leaves the stadium.
Is it better to sell it off or hold onto it and charge rent until property/land prices improve and the club can make alternative arrangements?
Is it coming down to what kind of legacy does the man want to leave?
bl00tered says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:19
See Sandy Jardine’s threat to remove himself from the SFA Hall fo Fame….
What am I missing here, or has Sandy laid claim to Danny Mc.Grain’s history?
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Well I guess all these times McGrain played at right-back for Scotland belong to him and McGrain only deserves the ones he played at left-back?
🙂
Agrajag says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:53
Misery loves company.
They would love nothing more than another set of fans being in the same position. Even better another set of fans arguing the same case as them.
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Agrajag…”misery loves company”…nice one…may I use it on the Essex dinner party/pub circuit…or will you be claiming copyright…?
ordinaryfan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:15 (Edit)
0 0 Rate This
BRTH: Superb post as ever.
Have you had a look at the Las Vegas Sands connection? I would greatly appreciate your opinion.
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Not aware of the Sands connection– that must have passed me by! All ears though!
Are the MSM et al being opportunistic in seizing the Hearts situation and attempting to use it as an excuse to press for reconstruction that could favour their old favourites from Govan? It is surely simplistic to claim that both of these clubs find themselves in the same boat (without a paddle). The circumstances, whilst not dissimilar are definitely not the same. Furthermore, Hearts problems are entirely unconnected to trfc’s absence, unless you believe Mr Traynor.We are hearing yet again that the punishment meted out to Hearts must be the same as that endured by trfc. Let’s remind everyone again, trfc have not been punished, they have incurred consequences, brought about by their own actions or rather the actions of the club that came before them.
Hearts will have whatever sanctions are appropriate to their situation. I have always been an advocate of taking every case on its merits. Things can often be similar but in my experience never the same.
BRTH
Sports journalists gathering in huddles to determine what they will and what they will not allow the public to read is a practice that belongs with the late Arthur Negus on the antiques Roadshow.
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I couldn’t agree more.The imagery served up by Stuart on the notion of fawning Murray allegiance is the essence of the problem in Scottish football journalism.I am optimistic that such lackeydom is on the wane given the challenge of the ‘bampots’.
The servile wretches have also been challenged significantly by fellow journalists such as M Daly and Alex Thomson and no doubt editors ,who themselves can be accused of ambivalence or indeed laziness in approach, must be having to reconsider their future emphasis and the abilities of their current staff.
Here is to a brave new world
essexbeancounter says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:25
LOL, I won’t claim copyright on a well known figure of speech, old bean.
Anyone see the Record’s interview with Peterhead chairman Rodger Morrison today? The heading mentions Morrison saying the Rangers fans’ money “has insured we’ll survive”. Can you guess which words are missing from his quotes in the actual article? He also nails the Hearts situation in one sentence, unlike Jabba.
Albion Rovers have not met either of the OF in any competition since I think 1981/82. They have somehow managed to struggle on and currently find themselves higher up the ladder than they have been for many a year, and playing bloody good football too as I can testify!
tombrann says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:36
Are the MSM et al being opportunistic in seizing the Hearts situation and attempting to use it as an excuse to press for reconstruction that could favour their old favourites from Govan?
=============================
As stated earlier, I don’t see how re-structuring helps new Rangers.
If it is done on merit then they will be at best 33rd team in Scottish senior football at the end of the season. Even with joining the SPL and SFL then having two top leagues of 16 they wouldn’t get in. They would be in the third tier.
If it is an expansion of the SPL, and teams getting in by invitation Mr Green has already stated repeatedly that he will not take Rangers into the SPL.
A nice wee piece in the Boston Herald.Love the Regan quotes!
dlvr.it/2SLdwz
Did somebody mention Jersey? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20265125
The Great Rangers Tax Swindle – A Conspiracy Theory
Part One – Craig Whyte, The Lone Gunman
Have you ever noticed that every time a major, headline-making event (e.g. an assassination, a terrorist incident or a corporate collapse) happens, the occurrence is routinely blamed, by the authorities and the mainstream media, on a ‘lone gunman’, a ‘maniacal despot’ or a ‘rogue trader’ (Lee Harvey Oswald, Osama Bin Laden or Nick Leeson for example) despite, in many cases, eye-witness testimony confirming multiple gunmen, inexplicable coincidences or clear evidence of a wider conspiracy? Why do you think that might be ?
I believe that this is down to the establishment’s fear of inculcating the very concept of ‘conspiracy’ in the minds of a complacent and acquiescent public. However, a conspiracy, by definition, simply means “a secret plan or agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal or subversive act.” In truth conspiracies are extremely commonplace in all walks of life but principally in the fields of politics and finance and especially in the corporate world. (Note Collyer Bristow currently being sued by Rangers liquidators for alleged ‘conspiracy’).
In my humble opinion, ‘the powers that be’ would rather that the word ‘conspiracy’ be automatically linked in the public mind with the word ‘theory’. Two innocent words, which, when put together, take on altogether more sinister connotations. Conspiracy theorists are generally ridiculed and mocked by the media and, subsequently, the general public as ‘UFO kooks’ and tinfoil-hat wearing ‘nutjobs’ and, to be fair, many probably are.
However, when even serious and reasoned attempts to question the blatant discrepancies and incongruity in the officially sanctioned view of any event are instinctively met with derisory cries of ‘conspiracy theorist!’ and accusations of trying to undermine ‘the natural order of things’, that tends to give me cause for suspicion. What are they trying to hide?
It is becoming apparent, to me at least, that the death and rebirth of Rangers does indeed involve a well-constructed and multi-layered conspiracy, engineered at a high level in Scottish corporate, legal, financial, media and (I’m afraid to say) political circles. The main aims of which, as far as I can determine, are:
to circumvent natural justice by the cover-up of gratuitous greed, corporate corruption, tax evasion and alleged criminal fraud committed by a small number of powerful individuals under the auspices of Rangers FC PLC over previous decades and;
to ensure the continued survival of a Rangers-brand ‘cash-cow’ in order to further fleece the loyal supporters of the old club and Scottish society in general and;
to prevent, reduce or deflect the inevitable righteous fury of these ‘duped’ fans against the real perpetrators behind this most grievous treachery against their once-proud institution and;
to avoid the real potential for ‘civil unrest’ or increased sectarian division in the run up to a vote on independence and;
to maintain the illusion of ‘good governance’ and protect the overall authority of ‘the system’.
In this case, I am also of the view that Craig Whyte may have been ‘set up’ to play the part of the Lone Gunman in this plot. His decidedly dubious history and devious demeanour would certainly make him an ideal candidate for the ‘fall guy’ role. He may have agreed, knowingly, to be part of the plan (or, more likely, part of ‘a’ plan within the larger plan) however, the ‘architects of control’ may have considered him no more than a ‘patsy’ brought in to ‘pull the trigger’ and to deflect suspicion from their own illegal behaviour.
Conspiracies by their very nature need to be both complex and clandestine, with the aim of distancing the real architects of the plot as far as possible from the crime scene and subsequent investigation. In order to minimise the risk of being implicated, it is obviously better to have as few people as possible involved. The rationale being that, if covert collusion between more than one person (i.e. a ‘conspiracy’) is established, any investigation or public enquiry should involve a painstaking interrogation of each the suspects separately. The answers extracted, especially under oath, could then be either corroborated or contradicted against the available evidence, potentially leading to more people being implicated and questioned until, eventually, the bigger picture may be uncovered and the conspiracy exposed.
Much safer, then, for the conspirators to make certain that the entire plot can be attributed to the actions of one solitary ‘lone nut’, preferably one with a dubious past and dodgy-looking eyes.
angus1983 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 08:44
15 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 07:56
And it was thoughtful of them to place an advertisement for a car below the article. I really hope it wasn’t a Honda Civic that was involved in the crash.
——
Wobbly – that’ll be adverts generated by your googling and
surfing habits.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can assure you that I have not googled or surfed for cars of any kind. The vast majority of my internet activity is related to music, news and football. Oh and porn, obviously.
From the Boston Herald today :
With a disciplined approach not adopted by some financiers and unruly fans in Scottish football recently, Celtic’s dogged defense held off the four-time European champions to win 2-1 in Glasgow.
It’s a very impressive result against the best team in the world,” Scottish Football Association chief executive Stewart Regan told The Associated Press on Thursday. “It gives Scottish football a lift when there’s a lot of negative stories around, at a time when it’s really needed, and showed some positive signs that things are not as bad as people might believe they are.
———————————————————————————————————————-
So not Armageddon then Stewart?
What I’m reading on here is a really sad indictment of the anti-Rangers brain-washing that’s accompanied the whole saga at Rangers.
Let’s divorce it from Scottish football, and look elsewhere… England.
Leeds Oldco was liquidated in 2007. Can you imagine Leeds fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.” Not a chance.
Charlton Oldco was liquidated back in the 80s. Can you imagine their fans saying “nah, not supporting them, it’s a newco, not the same club.”
Middlesbrough as well. Luton. None of them have this warped outlook that’s merely a product of anti-Rangers feeling.
Seeing comments where fans say they would NOT support a team:
– called Heart of Midlothian FC
– wearing Hearts jerseys
– adorned by the Hearts badge
– playing at Tynecastle
– followed by Hearts fans..
Why? Because it’s a newly registered company.
Unbelievable.
——————————————————————————————————————–
Is McCoist engaging with Jambos Kickback?
In any case, Leeds United were never liquidated. Middlesbrough were and changed their badge and added “& Athletic Club” to their title. Charlton seem to have reformed in 1984.
Jabba is a desperate and sick individual. All of his writings and utterances need to be seen in that light. He is of identical stature to Leggo. As such everything that he writes is warped and twisted by his own nihilistic desire to see the demise of Rangers precipitate the demise of Scottish football.
For him, the SPL now holds no interest – only by injecting SEVCO as Rangers back in can he see any point in it. His projection of his own bitterness and loathing and anger apparently constitutes journalism for the Record. If his bosses had any sense ( they don’t) then he would be asked to leave as his only useful “contacts” were Jack’s Media House group and individuals within Rangers – and they are now deid, Their absurd and laughable tribute band are virtually deid.
The man has no relevance anymore – he never had any intelligence but did have influence with the power of Murray’s Rangers behind him – but no more, His being tied to Murray and his own ego have left him a blubbery ( and seemingly blubbing ) washed-up whale – howling his piteous death notes. He will shortly be no more; Rangers ( Sevco version) will shortly be no more. The Record, I suspect, will shortly be no more – it is haemorrhaging both cash and readership.
Hearts I firmly believe, will survive – Tynecastle stadium I firmly believe will not.
Romanov has to take some kind of major hit if he wants shot – his only hope of salvaging cash being a sale of Tynecastle for development ( would have made 15 – 20 mill four or five years ago – but suspect a lot less now) Hearts will exit a CVA and rent Tynecastle from Vlad – for a season or two- until development and groundshare issues are resolved. They will then groundshare either with Hibs or more probably at Murrayfield. Murrayfield offers the lesser of two evils for the Hearts fans but presents logistical nightmares for fixture planners! Easter road is far more logical – rent would be cheaper – and it is a good compact redeveloped ground – but far less palatable to those in maroon.
McCoist not liking this post on JKB
===========================
You are missing the point. I don’t give a **** about Crystal Palace. The club became the company. It is one entity. We are buying shares in Hearts Football Club. If we liquidate those shares are lost because Hearts football club ceases to exit. That is why all these efforts are being made to save the club. Otherwise what would be the point in pumping all that money into a company shell when we could just remove the club and put it somewhere else.
bobferris70 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:05
Bob Iam not sure it’s actually ally mccoist although he’s calling himself mccoist365 if anything he actually reminds me of ‘adam’ from RTC fame/notoriety………anyway he’s well rehearsed in everything that legitimises ‘newco’ in his mind. 🙂
Bob Iam not sure it’s actually ally mccoist although he’s calling himself mccoist365 if anything he actually reminds me of ‘adam’ from RTC fame/notoriety………anyway he’s well rehearsed in everything that legitimises ‘newco’ in his mind.
———————————————————————————————————————————-
Ah right. Charlie Brown shouldn’t be saying McCoist then. I wasn’t really in The Likely Lads!
broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:06
No matter the result of Hearts current predicament, the MSM nomarks will use it as a shoehorn for their wet dream of The Loving Cup’s return to it’s reightful place at the sumit of Scottish Soccerball.
No doubt some pretty powerful folks will be working feverishly behind the scenes to ensure that it happens: Conflicted Ogilvie, Donkey, Raygun, Chuckles, Jabba, Sandy Cartoon, MPs, MSPs etc etc.
But it will be left to the most powerful person in Scottish football to determine how it’ll all play out.
If you’re not aware who this person is,,,,,, go get your season ticket and hold it up to a mirror, that ugly mug you see staring back at you, there’s nobody more powerful, remember what you did in the summer!!
——————————————————————————–
Yup its an attempt to ramp up the reconstruction argument on the fundamental basis that in order to survive Scottish football needs sectarianism as its basis to make it work. This of course flies in the face of the reality that sectarianism was the underlying cause of its failure, but hey lets not let reality poke its nose in.
At club level the St Johnstone Chairman pointed at the root cause of club’s problems the other day, i.e players wages and the need for a wage ceiling. UEFA FFP provides the principles and formula for a wage ceiling that ALL national associations should adopt, but of course the EPL want their cake whilst eating ours and will not play ball. However God knows when that particular bubble will burst so the reconstruction argument will gather force..
Ultimately it will be down to supporters to drive change by changing what we want to support – glory or community, although Celtic’s result the other night must have big club chairmen thinking – if Celtic on their budget can beat Barcelona and maybe qualify for the CL qrtr finals, why are we paying over the odds in wages?
(Man City owners if they had brains should be asking.this its a Moneyball thing.On top of that Man City (again) should be asking why was our crowd so low and dead?)
However everyone has to play their part not least the players who now “own” the game. It is time they and their agents became more soccer socially responsible.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kpMnLxNJhhK3i2dsLpd9oRHxjvDrS8GLGhNNVKEldRw/edit
iceman63 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:08
Iceman if we can survive the season and stabilise the clubs financial position even if that means an administration event then one option might be to investigate a buy back or mortgage on tynecastle but that would probably be a couple of years down the line and the club would have to show financial discipline before any lender would consider it.
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:18
bobferris70 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:05
Bob Iam not sure it’s actually ally mccoist although he’s calling himself mccoist365 if anything he actually reminds me of ‘adam’ from RTC fame/notoriety………anyway he’s well rehearsed in everything that legitimises ‘newco’ in his mind.
——————————-
If he is well rehearsed in everything that legitimises ‘newco’ in his mind then its Adam. 🙂
Agrajag says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:49
As stated earlier, I don’t see how re-structuring helps new Rangers.
——
That’s an easy one. Stadium requirements.
HMFC will simply ditch their debt, sell their assets, including the ground, history, trophies et al and carry on playing at Tynecastle, in maroon. Sure the playing squad will be compromised, relegation may well ensue but Hearts aren’t going to disappear completely, as there are sufficient Jambos, just as there are Bears, to maintain the survival of a football team.
So, what, exactly, is the problem here?
There’s continual scaremongering as we know, but the simple reality is what we’re witnessing here, as we did with The Rangers, is a specific correction in the marketplace, and the use of UK Corporate Law to ditch the bad, smelly, stuff and continue with all the good stuff. Obviously allowing for a compliant governing body.
http://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/current-affairs/184-buy-rangers-q-a
I thought the minimum requirement had been scrapped or dropped.
What for example is the capacity of Victoria Park. I thought it was only about 6,500, Caledonian Stadium as well, is that not about 8,000.
Sorry if those figures are wrong.
Bit of light reading for a quiet (so far) Friday afternoon … Aberdeen Mad’s view of Shandy Sardine’s recent effort, wherein many of the thoughts that were possibly going through our own minds are articulated.
I particularly liked this line: “At least Bummer Brown had the excuse the he is actually as thick as he looks.”
🙂
http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=4&fid=27&sty=2&act=1&mid=2113814131
thespecialswon says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:45
As I see it and posted earlier a ‘newco’ solution ala Sevco is probably the least likely option for a whole host of reasons. What is far more likely imo is a typical ‘administration’ event where costs are cut and assets sold or re-possessed to satisfy the creditors, primarily the secured creditor ie Romanov and we emerge from administration still largely intact and financially more viable although weakened by the loss of players & staff plus of course sporting sanctions meaning a minimum 18 points deduction almost double what Rangers got.
Agrajag says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:54
I thought the minimum requirement had been scrapped or dropped.
——
Aye, you could be right.
However, with a re-organised League structure, I’m sure it could be re-introduced … if there were any particular reason for doing so. I can’t think of one myself, but maybe our Top Football Administrators could. 😉
jimlarkin2012 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:53
——
8. Do the club and Charles Green support the scheme? What sort of discussions have you had about this?
GS: Simple answer is yes. Our chairman and other RST board members are in regular contact with Charles Green and Imran Ahmed. On the 25th October Imran agreed the RST could buy shares as a group in the IPO. I think they are happy we are offering a service which will allow more people to invest and they see it as an opportunity to maximise the level of investment.
——
I offer no further comment on this. Don’t need to, really. 🙂
To my Celtic supporting friends on here I know it’s a midweek match, televised and pre-xmas but if you guys could sell all your tickets for the forthcoming game at Tynecastle that would be greatly appreciated or if you can’t sell them then at least let us try to buy the unsold ones even if of course we couldn’t or wouldn’t be able to use them but it’s really important to us that we can sell out our upcoming home matches. 🙂
It was Las Vegas Sands Inc who, in 2004, were announced as (-S)DM’s funder for £80million of the the £120million of the Ibrox SuperCasino on the site of the Albion Car Park.
The good chaps on follow follow think that Hearts fans would be ill advised putting their money into shares. Both have high post counts
====================================================
Originally Posted
Hearts fans should probably take some sort of stance regarding the share issue as it will just go straight into mad vlads pocket.
he is doing them dry and they are taking it.
That’s how I see it.
—————–
I don’t blame them for putting money in because they see it as a duty and the only way to save Hearts. No qualms with that, but the likelihood of it being anything other than a short-term fix at best is too high not to look at alternatives.
No-one’s going to convince me he’s to be trusted with their club.
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:57
That sounds like what Motherwell did. Will it be enough for sustainable trading or should detaching yourselves from Romanov and Tynecastle not be in the thinking?
For me what keeps clubs alive is not the stadium they play in but the support who believe in them. That is where the memory of history lies no matter what theh formal recognition of that history takes.
Ihttp://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/current-affairs/184-buy-rangers-q-a
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Mmmmm…
RST want fans to donate £125 (+£10 p.a. to retain membership of RST)
All the £125 donations will be pooled and the RST(not the Donor) will then buy and own shares in “The Club”
Meaning the Donor wont get any shares in return for his £125.He might get a warm fuzzy feeling in his tummy if he is really gullible. But if he doesnt keep paying the RST £10pa the warm fuzzy feeling will disappear
it appears that
For the purposes of liquidation the RST don`t consider a company to be “The Club”
But
For the purpose of the IPO the RST do consider a company to be “The Club”
And it gets even more bizarre
If a fan wants to own shares in “The Club” which cannot die he can invest a minimum of £500 in Sevco which can die
And
If he simply wants to make a donation to “The Club” he can give the RST £125 ,,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This sounds like a better wheeze for the RST than it is for Charlie Green
£10 p.a for every member or he loses his “fan ownership” for which he gets no shares
If the RST manage to raise the figure of £2.5m mentioned in this fairy story
Thats £250k in perpetuityfor the RST
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
It must be true after all
It takes one gullible person to recognise
So we think that the SFA / SPL / SFL will re-structure and will re-introduce a rule to suit one club and all of the other clubs, including any being disadvantaged will agree to this.
It will have to be a total re-structure and not an extension of the SPL, as Rangers have no interest in that. Well Charles green doesn’t.
We have seen a lot of amazing and corrupt thing done to the benefit of one, new club. However that would surely take the biscuit. Total re-structuring of Scottish football, with old rules being re-applied, just to suit them.
jimlarkin2012 @14:53
http://www.therangersstandard.co.uk/index.php/articles/current-affairs/184-buy-rangers-q-a
————————
“For example if we raised £2.5m and the club is valued at £25m the Buy Rangers campaign would then own 10% of Rangers Football Club.”
I thought the new club was worth at least £80M?
Reconstyruction is a kite that won’t fly – just Jabba talking out of his rear. It makes no sense. the prime objective of all involved at present ought to be trying to ensure Hearts survive.
Their owner has simply run out of cash and his past is coming back to haunt him – I reckon. how Hearts fans do this is the issue. Will Romanov be better off allowing the tax man to liquidate and then using his floating charge to take back whatefer he can of his debt with an assets sale. If this is the case then hearts are in very big bother.
Except, of course , a new Hearts can be formed once someone sets them up and Hearts licence can be transferred to them. Priniple established – clubs are as of now immortal. In which case they will be allowed to see out the rest of the season with a pool of youths presumably to avoid fixture catastrophe – take a relegation to div 3 and re-emerge as new Hearts.
Liquidations all round I reckon . If your club can survive it and emerge debt free – why not!.
The downside of course is that no club in Scotland will ever be given any lines of credit from anyone ever – and all of those that have can expect to see them called in PDQ.
Perhaps this is why Vlad has stayed schtum – he is awaiting a precedent to be established that he can now follow.
Stinks as much as Rangers frankly! And remember the First minister is a Hearts fan!
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:57
I take your point and bow to your superior knowledge, but it is unclear, to me anyway, how you continue playing at Tynecastle in the scenario you describe.
Rangers trust thing absolute desperation – SEVCO can’t float on the AIM – they don’t meet the criteria – they can’t raise enough in a private share issue from those with 500 quid to spend so now they are trying to squeeze the pennies out of those fans with least money. The end is nigh – this will raise less than a million – the share issue 4-5 mill tops – not enough. They have expenses of twenty million income of 11 -12 mill – SEVCO are going down!!!!
I will say by February at latest
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 13:11
57 0 Rate This
Good Afternoon …
————
A thoroughly insightful, thought-provoking and balanced read. Bravo.
thespecialswon says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 15:56
Unless we were evicted then we’d have to rent or make mortgage payments. Romanov to be fair has said he is puting no more new money in however he hasn’t stated he intends to start taking money out or try to make money from Hearts. Put it this way it’s been costing him a small fortune every season just keeping us afloat so if we can get to cost neutral he’s actually saving himself millions per year in subsidising losses.
Of course at some point he will look to sever all ties. At that point we either have to be able to buy the club as a whole or cut him some deal over the stadium/debt. The alternative is Murrayfield which simply puts us back to where we were in 2004.
i think Romanov’s over-riding concern about Hearts at this moment is they immediately stop costing him money.
Another thing that might help Hearts at least in the short term is Romanov probably wants to avoid having to crystalise very big losses if he was forced into an asset sale or liquidation. As long as it’s not costing him money he can theoretically keep the debt on his books and avoid having to realise a massive haircut on the debt.
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 16:19
———
Was intrigued by your reference to this thread:
http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/120048-would-you-support-a-newco-hearts/page__st__50
Had a read through. Well said Charlie.
Ordinaryfan.
I am sorry but you have lost me.
Could you explain where your multiple posts re Sands are going, or even coming from.
Apologies if you have posted an explanation. I must have missed it.
Iceman63
You think Feb 2013 for that Duff&Duffer will be back in, will lightning strike twice and will it be on the 14th Feb, spooky ,also ,Sardines Masquerade Ballsup ,it would be interesting to ask everyone who who takes part in the p[Ch]arade if they believe whether its a memorial or what ,can some of the msm ask them afterwards ,we should be told.And to show I am not biased I hope they have a nice day whatever the celebration.
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 16:29
==================
That’s the problem with the administration and CVA as I see it.
Is Mr Romanov’s bank relying on the debt as an asset on their books to make their own position look better. A pennies in the pound CVA would wipe that out.
If all these Las Vegas Sands (xxxxx) Co’s were set up in preparation for Super casinos in the event of licences being issued, we could expect there to be very little in the way of accounts or activity.
Anyone have any of that info?
My expectation would be that none of the subsidiaries ever actually traded.
I would love to hear the opinion of someone like Higher Pursuit, RTC, Barcabhoy, Paul Mconville or BRTH. I have no idea what it all means because I’m just not that clever. Just seems to me to be the link a few of the more learned posters and bloggers were looking for.
ordinaryfan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 17:21
=======================
It certainly seems to seem odd to you.
abcott: Their Online Gaming and Gambling companies would be the best bet there.
Agrajag: But not you?
Agrajag: Andrew Ellis’ company World Link Group also linked. Another coincidence?
Suppose you are right, OF.
What is the mechanism?
Has anyone ever tested the viability of another casino in Glasgow, as stand-alone or part of an hotel, or with planning permissions, or with existing operators, in that part of the City – or at 80-120m for the privilege?
Now let`s look at the Super Casino as in the Far East and American models – supported by huge conurbations and vast tourist infrastructure. One of those at Ibrox? – supported by the West of Scotland nouveau riche
Am I missing something? Well no – it was nonsense from the start and it’s still nonsense as practical.
Although allowing the story “out there” obviously has had it uses for personages over the years.
ordinaryfan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 17:27
===========================
Not what you have posted, no.
I personally think that just now you are doing the 6 degrees of separation thing.
Did you not at one point also include ICAS, on the basis that accountants would be members of that organisation, therefore they must be in the thick of it.
I think you also need to consider what type of money laundering you are suggesting. Is it additional cash coming into the club being laundered (placement). Is it people laundering the proceeds of other businesses by obtaining shares in the club (layering or integration). Is it people assisting others to retain the proceeds of their criminal conduct, or is it own funds laundering.
So, no not really. Just now all I think you are doing is making loads of links and putting them together under the umbrella term of “money laundering”.
I’m not saying that Rangers (old and new) aren’t or weren’t being used as part of a money laundering process. I think there is every prospect they might have been. I just haven’t seen a great deal of evidence to that effect. Though I can think of ways it may have been done.
Malcolm Cohen does specialise in cross border investigations though.
abcott: No idea whatsoever I’m afraid, as I say, that is for far more intelligent people than me.
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:34
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:18
bobferris70 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 14:05
…
If he is well rehearsed in everything that legitimises ‘newco’ in his mind then its Adam.
============================
I thought Adam was in a submarine or visiting ‘the land with no internet’ ?
Is he back then ? 🙄
Agrajag: I admit my limitations on this, maybe you could have a look. Ten minutes on google will give you a wealth of information and connections. Then you could make your own mind up.
twopanda: I expect that’s why they are building it in Madrid. Maybe the scouting party of 2004 were just making “friends” for when the Super Casino does open.
ordinaryfan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 17:44
Agrajag: I admit my limitations on this, maybe you could have a look. Ten minutes on google will give you a wealth of information and connections. Then you could make your own mind up.
=============================
I take it you are joking, or haven’t read my last post.
Agrajag: Yeah something like that.
ordinaryfan says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 17:39
0 0 Rate This
abcott: No idea whatsoever I’m afraid, as I say, that is for far more intelligent people than me.
————-
It’s certainly interesting given some recent tweets from leading lights on this story, but it shouldn’t become another Guidi-hope thingymajig. That was the most embarrassing episode this blog has seen in its short existence. If this story does have legs I’m sure someone, somewhere will be onto it.
Then again, if you were one of those who went to Jersey for your dinner just to ensure that you were towing the Murray line
___________________________________________
BRTH, yet another superb post. Would it be churlishly pedantic of me to suggest that you meant toeing the line, not towing the line?
If the press are to believed Armageddon is not far off. One dead club and maybe another about to go. Although I hope not and that Hearts find a way out of the mess.
The blame for the position of Scottish football lies with two major players and their lackies.
Firstly the esteemed SFA Chairman (CO) is it just bad luck or what but this man was in a senior position with both RFC(IL) and at Hearts. He obviously lead both these clubs in a manner which compares with his tenure at the SFA – and we all know how he has performed there. WHY IS THIS MAN STILL IN OFFICE ? For the sake of our (the fans) game inwhich we have invested soo much HE MUST GO NOW no ifs or buts. MR. O GO NOW !!
Secondly the former Rangers Chairman and owner – (S)DM. He is to blame for the current financial state of the game. He upped the anti a decade ago and the rest of the Clubs attempted to follow suit, only a handful of Clubs realised this would lead to ruin and eventually held back.
Not only did this individual set wages at such a high level , a level that was not sustainable in the Scottish game, he then brought on board the media to hoodwink the supporters into a false sense of security. These same media people still support him to this day. They to have been complicit in the downfall of the game. They may well loose their jobs, and I for one will not lose any sleep over that.
There are many and varied views about the “back room deals” etc and I have no doubt the truth lies in there somewhere, The ordinary fan only wants to support his team on a level playing field and may the best team win.However since no one especially the press are not prepare to publish the truth the fan is left not knowing who or what to believe.
The only solution I see is for the whole game to start again get rid of the SFA committees and the SPL/SFL – the blazers must go !! Only when there is a total clear out then the game will find its own level and we can move forward.
Finally as a Celtic supporter if the game in Scotland implodes I hope the CFC board would look to getting into the league in England I am sure they would now be only to pleased to welcome us, especially after last Wednesday night.
StevieBC says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 17:43
Stevie if it’s not him then it’s someone awfy awfy like him, unrelenting in pushing the same propaganda and point of view, did admit that Rangers deserved to be punished but stopped short of saying what that should be …….. also ignored all discussions about complicity/cheating by Rangers officials and went back to promoting the legitimacy of the newco option. 🙂
MikeC says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 18:06
Mikey as great a result as Celtic achieved on wednesday i don’t think it matters a jot to Celtic’s chances of ever getting to play in England. There is simply more clubs down there with ambitions and votes to dine at the top table themselves that would always vote to keep you (and any Scottish team) out. It would be additional competition they would neither welcome nor want imo.
paulmac2 says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 12:05
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Comment of the day so far Paul, short, sweet and effective!
Charlie Brown says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 18:10
I at no time said we would be welcomed into the top tier of English football but the lower leagues would be. You only need to recall that when a player in England has a testimonial their first port of call is Celtic, because of their fan base and those fans do not carry any baggage. Money always talks as we know only too well in the current climate in Scotland,
I also said that if the game in Scotland was to implode – ie no Scottish game. Sky etc would put pressure on them to allow Celtic in.