A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
The skewed logic around claims that Rangers being in the top flight of Scottish football somehow has a beneficial effect is akin to the voodoo economics of the ‘trickle down’ theory doesn’t stack up.
Did having a Rangers in the SPL prevent Motherwell, Dundee, Gretna, Livingston (have I missed anyone?) from suffering an insolvency event?
Again you could argue trying to compete with a financially doped Rangers helped push these clubs over the edge. But one thing is certain, Rangers being in the top flight did not save them.
Sections of the MSM are akin to credit crunch deniers. They will try telling us that Regan, Bush, Thatcher, Blair and Brown had it right all along and if we just deregulate and allow a light touch and the ‘big boys’ to get on with generating the wealth then we will all be better off.
History and reality suggest this is total (stealing a cowanism) Lillian Gish.
As has so often been stated by the MSM sports reporters, they don’t understand business and financial matters.
They understand an agenda very well indeed.
Humble Pie says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 21:56
Jack Jonson for Caledonian Mercury defends succulent lamb churnalism.
http://caledonianmercury.com/2012/05/07/opinion-succulent-lamb-the-old-firm-and-scottish-journalism/0033077
Move along! Nothing to see here !
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To think a while back I actually donated to CM to support a different news option. They asked for that support to improve the quality of what they put out. Over the last year or so the journalism (not just sports part) has got poorer IMO – the web site looks better nothing else has improved. Sad a good opportunity was wasted.
One thing that cheers me up reading poor articles like that is that if it has a comments section someone will always challenge it with facts and better arguments.
Re Hearts’ predicament: how are revenues from Scottish Cup ties divided? [Sorry if this has been discussed before…] Unless Hibs get to keep all the money from the match, surely there’s quite an inflow of cash due to Hearts? Back-of-a-fag-packet arithmetic = 20,000 x 20 = 400k attendance revenue to be split between the 2 clubs = 200k for Hearts? Could be well wide of the mark here of course.
Just me but I don’t like the RST share deal.If I invest 20k I get one vote,the same as someone who invests £125?.
I could turn up at a meeting and vote to pay tax/nic.VAT to keep the club right and by voted down by say 12 bears who say “eff the taxman”,we want new players,even though I’ve invested more than them all put together.
Maybe an extreme example but that’s potentially what’s happening.
Most Hearts fans I’ve spoken to, at work and in the pub, and from what I’ve read online too, seem to recognise that they’ve ‘lived the dream’ – won the Scottish Cup twice with Vlad, had some great results, and wouldn’t swap any of that, to be solvent and secure now.
As others have stated they’ve signed players they simply couldn’t afford, very much like Rangers, to strengthen their own team but, also, to prevent other teams from strengthening. Players like Barr, Webster and Black were all wanted by Hibs, terms were offered, or at least, discussed, but HMFC offered more. In fact if it wasn’t for an SFA embargo Hearts would have re-signed Skacel, very akin to Rangers trying to sign Cousins even though they were broke.
Hearts have lived the dream, and in the process, built on the belief that they are the third biggest team in Scotland. Sadly this only makes them the tallest dwarf. A couple of thousand additional fans at home games during their peak, fostered that view, but the Club was funded by credit and debt. In the final analysis tax schemes, and then non-payment of tax eventually has been used to create an unfair advantage over every other team, than the OF…
Ultimately Hearts bought success. And they will have the memories of that success for ever.
cowanpete says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 10:45
Re Hearts’ predicament: how are revenues from Scottish Cup ties divided? [Sorry if this has been discussed before…] Unless Hibs get to keep all the money from the match, surely there’s quite an inflow of cash due to Hearts? Back-of-a-fag-packet arithmetic = 20,000 x 20 = 400k attendance revenue to be split between the 2 clubs = 200k for Hearts? Could be well wide of the mark here of course.
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I’d say your formula is about right but you’d also have to deduct match costs of say £25k and the dreaded VAT,maybe another 75K.
I can exclusively reveal that Ibrox is to be re-named in a world record deal. A unique tie-in with two companies will see the ground with a new name. Universal Records are keen to promote their new deal with the Sex Pistols on the 35th anniversary of the single God Save the Queen (a much misunderstood parody of republicanism) and lengthy negotiations with a leading electronics company have finally borne fruit. Ibrox is soon to be renamed The Rotten Apple Stadium.
Maybe.
On more serious matters, as has been suggested already, Hearts and their fans need to be very clear that if survival is in doubt then that is the priority. Your balloon seems to be heading for the ground at pace so jettison what you can to avoid a fatal crash. Forget about which division you’ll end up in and what your squad looks like. Don’t try to cling to the notion of playing in Europe or even the SPL. Try to clear the debts (selling or releasing players in January if possible) then rebuild when you can. The pain and uncertainty will only be extended if you think you can avoid facing up to this (as Rangers and many of their fans seem to have done).
Conversation on the Barcelona jet on the way home from Glasgow, Messi ” They were lucky, had unbelievable support too” Valdes, “we were lucky, they were missing maybe four of their starting eleven”,Xavi ” heard there best player Armageddon didn’t turn up, Messi ” ok maybe we were lucky it was only two one”
Can vouch for the above conversation.
Senior.
rab says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 03:12
19 1 Rate This
Im a busy man these days and it may take a while to complete this process and it will probably be ignored by most clubs anyway
But i will report my findings as and when they are complete.
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Rab brilliant idea.
One suggestion, without disclosing the content of the replies you should certainly post the names of those clubs that do reply, and ditto, those clubs who do not respond. You could give a flavour of the replies.
These are historical football times we live in. Any club who sits idly
by and allow our game slip into the depths should receive the maximum publicity. Supporters are entitled to know how their own clubs behaved in this time of crisis for the game in Scotland.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 09:39
With Hearts it’s probably easier to have sympathy and offer support, because they and their support are manning up about it. There’s no defiance, no ‘too many people with too much money’ expectation that someone else will do something about it.
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Can I add that their attitude of “Right we got ourselves into a mess, how doe we sort it” is much more genuine than “Everyone is against us and is attacking us, everyone hates us we don’t care. It’s all other people’s fault, we are actually the victims here”.
I think the sypathy and support comes from the fans reactions to the issue. It has been exactly the opposite of how the Rangers fans (on the whole) have reacted.
cowanpete says: Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 07:51
Please allow me to ask for clarification here. Are you suggesting 10,000 Hearts fans should pay 200 quid each over the next six months? For what? What magical thing happens in month 7?
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End of season. Just like that!
Yep. Does seem a bit stiff in the cold light of day, but £2mil is what they say they need, to get to May 2013.
easyJambo says:
Friday, November 9, 2012 at 22:23
I think Hearts offered themselves up for scrutiny in April following the SPL’s request for clubs to reveal any possible non contractual payments in the wake of the RFC debacle, and that their explanation was accepted by the SPL.
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I think that’s probably right. If I remember correctly the SPL reported that there was a prima facie case against 1 club, and that would be going to a full enquiry.
Tam cowan and Cosgrove starting there show by telling the TRUTH about DM and his Relationship with the MSM 😉
How they can let out everything they should have said about DM And turn it on Mad Vlad
torrejohnbhoy says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 10:59
==================================
And if the RST are buying non-voting shares then it matters not one jot what the people who “invested” through them think.
They can vote on anything, the RST then takes the result of that vote to the board, who say actually we don’t care it’s none of your business. You have no say on who gets on the board and no say in any issues voted on at the AGM.
So, as someone asked earlier, what type of shares will the RST be buying, it is the most fundamental question.
It seems that HMFC are approaching their tax problems with, let’s say, more dignity than Sevco.
In addition, on the surface, at least, they appear to accept the situation as being of their own doing and are not courting/demanding special treatment – or blaming all and sundry for their travails.
And know what – they WILL survive – WITH AFOREMENTIONED DIGNITY INTACT So ‘heids up’ Jambos!
dailymotion.com/embed/video/xuym3w … This vid is worth a watch. Wedneday night from a Barca fans point of view. Quite stunning. Sorry if posted before.
tomtomaswell says: Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 01:04
Interesting parallel. I’ve read more posts on here in 48 hours from Hearts fans desperate to save their club than from RFC fans trying to save their club in all the time that RTC was going.
Speaks volumes
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Well, it doesn’t really speak volumes at all.
Remember the air of triumphalism around here (and RTC) by non-rangers fans?
The Rangers fans expressing remorse at how the club was run, received condescending ‘good-boy’ platitudes.
The others, (obviously with poor understanding of the reasons behind the current predicaments), were hounded out by a huge majority.
Hearts fans on here, haven’t had to deal with the same amount of swimming against the populist tide.
And the realisable amount of funding to rescue is possibly, just this side of achievable – the amount of cheating against the TAX/NI parts of government are a comparative drop in the ocean, and no side-contracts (at this moment) have been declared, so there has been no cheating of the rest of the clubs via that avenue.
exiled celt:
Las Vegas Sands has hired UK property agency Jones Lang LaSalle to identify opportunities in Scotland; where it had plans to build an entertainment complex, including a casino, hotel and restaurants, next to Rangers’ Ibrox stadium.
Jones Lang LaSalle director Roger Staubach formerly of DALLAS COWBOYS.
ordinaryfan says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 12:39
exiled celt:
Las Vegas Sands has hired UK property agency Jones Lang LaSalle to identify opportunities in Scotland; where it had plans to build an entertainment complex, including a casino, hotel and restaurants, next to Rangers’ Ibrox stadium.
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Is that from 2004 or 2005.
Charlie Brown says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 01:27
bogsdollox i think the hmrc assessment on hearts is as simple as which tax jurisdiction had precedence? The UK tax rate was 40%+ whilst iam fairly certain that Lithuania had a relatively low flat rate imcome tax of 15 or 20% hence it was thought to be tax efficient and more enticing for the players to earn the bulk of their wages in Kaunas not Edinburgh but what tripped Hearts up is the Edinburgh proportion was really low ie stupidly low that raised Hectors attentions. If we take £1.75m tax assessment x 20% tax difference it works out at just under £2M gross wages per year for the 4 or 5 years the practice ran from approx 2005-2010 when we had literally a couple of dozen players come via kaunas in one form or another. Some of these players also got club rented cars and accommodation and there is also some question if those benefits were taxed correctly?
The SPL has already decided that Rangers were the only SPL club with undeclared dual contracts? The Hearts players as loanees did actually have dual contracts but then all loanee players do at every club. I’d put this down to incompetence or stupidity rather than deliberate cheating of hmrc and football authorities that Rangers seem to have engaged in.
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Earnings in the UK are taxed in the jurisdiction where the duties of the employment are performed. The fact is players can’t be in two places at once and therefore the remuneration allocated to the UK contract should have reflected this. That it didn’t wasn’t down to incompetence or stupidity but tax avoidance.
Any company effectively seconding employees to the UK takes tax advice. Hearts probably did and came up with the remuneration split but like Rangers they tried to over egg the pudding.
Agrajag: I don’t know what your problem is with me but I’m not interested in arguing with anyone. Best we don’t converse.
ordinaryfan says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 13:24
Agrajag: I don’t know what your problem is with me but I’m not interested in arguing with anyone. Best we don’t converse.
================================
No problem, just wondering if the thing you posted is from 7 or 8 years ago, or is it current.
Do you have a link to it.
We did discuss this a few days ago and the consensus was that if there was a link it was best to post it, then people can see the thing in context.
Tam and Stuart asking if it is true that all the Celtic players from Wednesday night’s win were born in a 40 000 mile radius of Parkhead. Lol.
Agrajag: If you weren’t so patronising at other times I would know when you were just being genuinely inquisitive. SEEMS to me it is best not to talk at all, then we are not spoiling the site for others and wasting our own time. I honestly have no problem with you except occasionally it SEEMS you are patronising me. Genuinely wish you all the best and leave it at that.
Somebody please tell me that I am dreaming and the following is not actually on the BBC website live text:
BBC Radio Scotland pundit Chick Young
“Hearts are guilty of paying beyond their means. They are an institution and we need them in Scottish football. But, when other clubs are cutting to live within their means, it is galling that we are expected to come to their rescue after them being so gung-ho”
ordinaryfan says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 13:34
If you don’t have a link I’ll see if I can find one myself.
Like I said you really need to see these things in context in order to get their meaning and relevance.
corsicacharity says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 13:36
Somebody please tell me that I am dreaming and the following is not actually on the BBC website live text:
BBC Radio Scotland pundit Chick Young
“Hearts are guilty of paying beyond their means. They are an institution and we need them in Scottish football. But, when other clubs are cutting to live within their means, it is galling that we are expected to come to their rescue after them being so gung-ho”
=================================
He has got to be being ironic surely.
Agrajag: I have stated on here numerous times I am literally computer illiterate. I don’t know how to post links, videos or anything else. I am an opinion poster who stumbled across a link between certain people which has been alluded to by the likes of Corsica and RTC. That is why I asked on here for the help of others who might be able to look into it and share what they find as I cannot. Unfortunately we are not all as capable as you.
ordinaryfan says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 13:41
Just go to the place you copied and pasted the quote from, then copy what is in the address bar and paste that here.
It’s just the same procedure as you have already done. Only with the address at the top, rather than the text
Agrajag: Thanks, I appreciate the assistance, I will do that next time. I believe a couple of our more learned posters are looking into it and if they find anything interesting I’m sure they will give a clear and concise timeline and connect all the dots.
NP
I think this might be it btw
http://www.bettingmarket.com/chips1.htm
Agrajag
ordinaryfan
Get a room.
So sevco are due hearts £800k for the Wallace deal,terms are £500k due at the end of the year & £300k next summer……So 2 days ago they offer a one off payment of £500k which would help pay the tax bill.which Vlad has rightly (IMO) turned down,the way chic young was putting it over it was like sevco were being the saviour of Hearts !! Give me a break,they saw an opportunity to save £300k…..sneaky gits !!
Guidi calling for ogilvie’s resignation on SSB 🙂
Agrajag and ordinaryfan
I know it’s a slow day and everything, but let’s not get personal.
Thanks
Kenny Duthie says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 14:18
Agreed.
Opportunism and trying to benefit from the problems of others. And their great cheerleader painting them as philanthropists.
I was asking ordinaryfan if there was a link between Sheffield Utd Sands Casino company and the time he was there are chairman – given its a tenuous link OF was tryign to see what it was. There seems something in it but we are not sure – Agrajag was merely asking for link so we can see where OF is going and maybe try to help out – no personal issues going on
tine CG was chairman at Sheffield Utd – not OF obviously
Brenda says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 14:22
Guidi calling for ogilvie’s resignation on SSB 🙂
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Would it be too much like stating the obvious to say “about time”.
I’m with you and have the same suspicions Agrajag.
Question for those in the know – are Hearts also not due moeny for Templeton?
Heard that sevco unable to pay for Templeton and never properly registered him?? Now there’s a thing!!! Can anyone remember what league game he played in and what was the score? And did he play in any cup games that sevco are still in? To all hearts supporters I genuinely do hope things at your club get sorted as for chick young’s comments today ??? Beggars belief 🙁
exiledcelt: I believe the connection to Green is Kevin McCabe. Strenuous as you say so still looking.
hangerhead says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 12:14
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tomtomaswell says: Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 01:04
Interesting parallel. I’ve read more posts on here in 48 hours from Hearts fans desperate to save their club than from RFC fans trying to save their club in all the time that RTC was going.
Speaks volumes
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Well, it doesn’t really speak volumes at all.
Remember the air of triumphalism around here (and RTC) by non-rangers fans?
The Rangers fans expressing remorse at how the club was run, received condescending ‘good-boy’ platitudes ….
——————
To be fair hangerhead, there was an almost piling on of disparaging comments. The grave-dancing and jelly and ice cream celebrations were tiresome and detracted from the factual information coming across. Many moons ago I went to Ibrox, as a child, but once in my teens I turned my back on the club because of the non-football stuff. As a Glaswegian, long-time abroad, I suppose somewhere deep down I probably still thought of Rangers as ‘my team’. It had no doubt much to do with fond childhood memories of being with my older brother at matches, but still. At least I signed up to Rangers TV when the crisis began. The thought being if everyone did something, the club would perhaps pull through the immediate crisis. I suppose I also had the naive idea that all the old bad stuff had died – it was the 21st century after all.
The interesting part of your comment is that it highlights a massive resentment of Rangers and its fans. I understood part of that dislike, but did not comprehend the extent of the resentment. The past 16 months or so have been a learning process. What I have found though is that I have much more in common with non-Rangers fans than with those from Ibrox. In one sense it only re-confirmed to me that my personal decision as a teen to back off from the club was the right one. This doesn’t mean that I take any pleasure whatsoever in seeing the club liquidated. But the sum of the mismanagement, financial jiggery-pokery, and the continued tolerance of this orange NI nonsense surprises and saddens me. My hope for this crisis was that the club would reboot with a clean moral slate and return to its Scottish roots. I would have got behind a project like that, certainly financially, and it wouldn’t have mattered if it was outwith Div 3.
It would be interesting to hear your opinion on why Rangers are resented so much, compared to Hearts. You have answered that partially in your last paragraph. I have my own views and I’m sure you’re aware of what folks here think, but what’s your angle on it? Does everyone just hate Rangers for no logical reason?
Why on earth would Hearts offer credit terms for the sale of Templeton?
Why would anyone provide anything to The Rangers that wasn’t C.O.D?
For those researching links, can I remind you that Paul McConville did this for Green and Whyte on his excellent blog.
Might save you a bit of bother.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/05/13/in-footballs-six-degrees-of-kevin-bacon-how-close-is-charles-green-to-craig-whyte-an-earley-answer/
abcott: Because Romanov, RFC & The Rangers are all part of a far bigger picture. It doesn’t make any business sense for Hearts, but it does for Romanov and Murray.
Brenda says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 14:22
Guidi calling for ogilvie’s resignation on SSB
——
Are you sure he didn’t just “hope” for it? 😉
ordinaryfan: dinna take Agrajag personally. I’m sure he’s not as abrupt in real life. Other people’s penchants for picking holes in things they don’t agree with is actually quite handy for spotting flaws in your own view.
How could Green claim that Sevco were debt free if we are now being told they have not paid in full the debt owed to Hearts ? who else do they owe money to within football ? As I said in previous post I think to re-enter any of the leagues if they wanted to call themselves Rangers it was morally and ethically correct that they should pay outstanding debts, left by old club. If they didn’t I think there should have been no place in any SPL or SFL league for the assests of old Rangers that Chuckie bought.
Yes Sevco owe moneys for Templeton because of his age they are due money for training him even although he left under freedom of contract think it’s about £250 000 maybe more maybe less
John Robertson stated yesterday it is due to be pay in the next couple of weeks
Obviously the difference between Hearts and Rangers is that Vlad hasn’t sold the Club, and therefore hasn’t been duped. This makes him and his club fair game to the MSM presstitutes, guilty of over-spending
So, we seem to be agreed that Sevco owe HMFC quite a bit, between Templeton and Wallace? Can some rules wonk tell us what the consequences of a default might be, given the ‘conditional’ element of the licence they got? And also, wearing my Athletic hat, when Alloa are due the Scottish Cup payment? Seem to recall from RTC discussions that it’s quite a short period.
Kenny Duthie says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 14:18
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So sevco are due hearts £800k for the Wallace deal,terms are
£500k due at the end of the year & £300k next summer……So 2
days ago they offer a one off payment of £500k which would help pay the tax bill.which Vlad has rightly (IMO) turned down,the way chic young was putting it over it was like sevco were being the saviour of Hearts !! Give me a break,they saw an opportunity to save £300k…..sneaky gits !!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Chick really meant:
“Come on, the mighty Rangers, the Govan giants, the last great hope of Scottish football are offering Hearts the opporchancity to resolve the immediate tax issue immediately. Thus saving the poor Hearts fans from dipping into their pockets. And yet…and yet…Mad Vlad…incredibly…has turned down Rangers wonderful, magnanimous and unbelieveably generous offer.”
Missed opportunity for Mr Charles, who as we know has a cash-rich and debt-free club, to front up the whole £800K and gain a bit of good publicity.
Strange that he wouldn’t do so, seeing as he appeared to be quick to say he’d fork out the same sum to Rapid Vienna (has that one been paid yet?).
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 17:45
Advanced warning for the next time when doing impersonations, Wee Chicks voice was reverberating inside my head there!!!
On a more serious note when do we think the FTT result will be made public, something really stinks, will in be in November?
angus1983 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 17:51
Missed opportunity for Mr Charles, who as we know has a cash-rich and debt-free club, to front up the whole £800K and gain a bit of good publicity.
Strange that he wouldn’t do so, seeing as he appeared to be quick to say he’d fork out the same sum to Rapid Vienna (has that one been paid yet?).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But remember that the Rapid Vienna money is also short of the full amount due by about £200K.
Your call……Malcolm who’s a Killie fan!!complaining about the amount of excitement given to Celtic result earlier in the week,he then went on about rangers(IL)winning 3 nil against Lyon some years ago & he finished off with wanting the manager with no surname back as Scotland manager……I wonder how many Killie pies he’s actually eaten 😉
Sorry for going OT.
Did I just hear Jim Traynor on Your Call question the salary that Craig Levein can drawn down from the SFA for the remaining period of his contract and that he should donate some of his wealth to Hearts?
Jim, on that basis, you should be helping to fund the development of TSFM, as it and RTC has been doing much of your job over the last 18 months.
Andy M @ Scotzine @scotzine
Graham Speirs just states on SSB that Rangers are a new club….but doesntgo on about it because those at Rangers are touchy about it…
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Is the tide turning?
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 16:02
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To be fair DP, although I would agree that some of the jelly, ice-cream and popcorn comments were somewhat over played, I was particularly impressed by the restraint shown by the vast majority of posters. Given the extent of cheating by Rangers, and given the supremacist attitude coming from many of the Rangers support even in the face of their club’s embarrassing behaviour (although that attitude has nothing to do with football – see more later), the reaction from posters could (and perhaps should) have been overly triumphant. That it was relatively restrained is to the credit To be fair DP, although I would agree that some of the jelly, ice-cream and popcorn comments were somewhat over played, I was particularly impressed by the restraint shown by the vast majority of posters. Given the extent of cheating by Rangers, and given the supremacist attitude coming from many of the Rangers support even in the face of their club’s embarrassing behaviour (although that attitude has nothing to do with football – see more later), the reaction from posters could (and perhaps should) have been overly triumphant. That it was relatively restrained is to the credit To be fair DP, although I would agree that some of th
not sure what happened there. Has the echo returned?
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 16:02
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be fair DP, although I would agree that some of the jelly, ice-cream and popcorn comments were somewhat over played, I was particularly impressed by the restraint shown by the vast majority of posters. Given the extent of cheating by Rangers, and given the supremacist attitude coming from many of the Rangers support even in the face of their club’s embarrassing behaviour (although that attitude has nothing to do with football – see more later), the reaction from posters could (and perhaps should) have been overly triumphant. That it was relatively restrained is to the credit of all.
For my part, I don’t hate Rangers and never have. This could be something to do with the fact that although I was born in Scotland, I wasn’t brought up here. Indeed, when I returned to Scotland (at the age of 14) I had no idea of the divisions in this country. What an eye-opener that was. And I live in the east!
Any hatred of Rangers or Celtic has nothing to do with football and has everything to do with the religious divide. That so much hatred can come from two factions that venerate the same God is bizarre. That that God does not exist just makes it all the more rediculous.
or even ridiculous
T’rangers toying with the hearts with the transfer dosh for Wallace. Really an insolvent club themselves laughing at another. Low even by their standards I do believe. Back to the old rangers we are superior to all and we set the rules and agendas. It was only a matter of time. Hope all clubs take note of this.
Romanov buys Hearts in Feb 2005. Ogilvie joins Hearts later that year. Now what are the chances that Ogilvie (at that time also on the board of the SFA) advised him that they way to success was to find a tax dodge 😀
Kenny Duthie says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:24
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Your call……Malcolm who’s a Killie fan!!complaining about the amount of excitement given to Celtic result earlier in the week,he then went on about rangers(IL)winning 3 nil against Lyon some years ago & he finished off with wanting the manager with no surname back as Scotland manager……I wonder how many Killie pies he’s actually eaten
This one I can answer! I didn’t hear the programme (I refuse to have anything to do with Traynor) but I can almaost guarantee that it wasn’t “Malcolm” it was “Mal” who only says he’s a Killie fan because he made quite a fuss about not supporting Rangers any more when they re-signed Kenny Miller. And Mal is not short for Malcolm, it’s short for Malnutrition. If it was 6pm on a Saturday, or any other day, he’s probably gassed.
I don’t think he’s set foot in Rugby Park for ten years.
Anyway, let’s get back to the real action.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:58
==================================
Peculiar post. I for one dont hate Rangers. I dislike them and what they have come to stand for with a passion.
It has nothing to do with the religion.
I dislike the songs they sing. I dislike the baggage that is attached to the club. I dislike the fact that when I was a schoolboy my class mates would bring in combat 18 leaflets because some far right nutters had been leafleting outside Ibrox.
I dislike all the wrong headed baggage that infects the support of this club and the divisive impact it has on the wider community.
I could go on but can assure you, for me, religion has nothing to do with it.
readcelt says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 19:43
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Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:58
==================================
Peculiar post. I for one dont hate Rangers. I dislike them and what they have come to stand for with a passion.
It has nothing to do with the religion.
I dislike the songs they sing. I dislike the baggage that is attached to the club. I dislike the fact that when I was a schoolboy my class mates would bring in combat 18 leaflets because some far right nutters had been leafleting outside Ibrox.
I dislike all the wrong headed baggage that infects the support of this club and the divisive impact it has on the wider community.
I could go on but can assure you, for me, religion has nothing to do with it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just my take. What is it that you think they have come to stand for?
I have no experience of Combat 18 stuff, but I have heard and read lots of Rangers/The Rangers fans spouting on about defending their ‘traditions’. This invariably comes back to Protestantism. Personally I find that to be every bit of an anachranism as Catholicism. Football arguments between Celtic and Rangers fans seem to me to be, for the most part,merely throwing a veil over the real reason for the antagonism. I could be wrong.. and I hope I am. I would be much more optimistic if all the hatred was purely down to football.
tomtomaswell says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 19:17
Romanov buys Hearts in Feb 2005. Ogilvie joins Hearts later that year. Now what are the chances that Ogilvie (at that time also on the board of the SFA) advised him that they way to success was to find a tax dodge 😀
========================
It would be interesting to establish how old the tax debts are.
have they for example been doing the off-shore thing since then.
Cheekie Green pretends he has half a million to spare for Edinburgh’s needy! Take it Vlad, before Zombie Rangers vanish in a puff of smoke..
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:58
I don’t hate anyone but I am disgusted with the poison which comes from sites such as Rangers Media Forum and Follow Follow. Living in the West of Scotland and dealing with this poison takes a strong stomach. It is the lack of compassion that causes it.
Agrajag says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:21
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tomtomaswell says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 19:17
Romanov buys Hearts in Feb 2005. Ogilvie joins Hearts later that year. Now what are the chances that Ogilvie (at that time also on the board of the SFA) advised him that they way to success was to find a tax dodge
========================
It would be interesting to establish how old the tax debts are.
have they for example been doing the off-shore thing since then.
===================================
In any business you hire people for the attributes/experience that they can bring to your company. To my mind it is inconceivable that Ogilvie didn’t at least run his knowledge of this by Vlad, even if it was just in casual conversation.
Especially if he didn’t believe that they were in any way dodgy 😀
Just noticed there Ogilvies links to both failed clubs. How is this guy running our game?? Reminds me of that shaggy song it wasnt me. Deniability with no one to oversee him we aint got a hope in hell of cleaning up our game. T’rangers can do what they want as we can’t afford them to fail now. or so the party line will go now. I might just take up bowls or something losing faith in our beautifull game that is now corrupt to the core.
Apologies if this has already been posted.
SCOTTISH football is in crisis with six senior clubs facing crippling debts, a leading accountant has warned.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/356990
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The article doesn’t say if these 6 clubs are SPL clubs, but I will assume they are.
If this really is true, a question might be: “should we have turned a blind eye and allowed The Rangers to join the SPL.”
My answer would be:
“Under no circumstances!”.
tomtomaswell says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:41
Indeed.
You don’t bring in the best administrator in World football, make him the Operations Director and then not let him implement cost saving plans.
Does anyone know how historic the Hearts tax issues are.