A Blog for Scottish Football Monitor by Stuart Cosgrove
At the height of summer of discontent I was asked to contribute to a BBC radio show with Jim Traynor and Jim Spence. ‘Armageddon’ had just been pronounced and if the media were to be believed Scotland was about to freeze over in a new ice-age: only a cold darkness lay ahead.
To get the radio-show off to a healthy and pretentious start I began by saying that Scottish football was experiencing an “epistemological break”. It was an in-joke with Jim Spence, who I have known since we were both teenage ‘suedeheads.’ I was a mouthy young St Johnstone fan and Jim was an Arabian sand-dancer. But even in those distant days, we shared a mutual distrust of the ‘old firm’ and in our separate ways wanted a better future for our clubs. We both grew up to become products of the fanzine era, Jim as a writer for Dundee United’s ‘The Final Hurdle’ and me as a staff writer for the NME. Without ever having to say it, we had both engaged in a guerrilla-war against what Aberdeen’s Willie Miller once characterised as “West Coast Bias”.
The term ‘epistemological break’ was shamelessly borrowed from French Marxist philosophy. It means a fundamental change in the way we construct and receive knowledge and although I used it on air as a wind-up to test Spencey’s significantly less-reliable Dundee schooling, deep down I meant it.
Social Media has proved to be one of the greatest disruptions in the history of the football supporter – greater than the brake clubs of the 19th century, the football specials on the 1970s; or the fanzine movement of the post-punk era. The pace of change in the way we send, receive and interrogate information has been so dynamic that it has wrong-footed administrators, asset strippers and sports journalists, alike. No matter who you support we are living through media history.
2012 had just witnessed an unprecedented summer of sport. The Olympics provided a snapshot of how sudden and pervasive the shift to social media has become. Over 40% of UK adults claim to have posted comments on websites, blogs or social networking about the Olympics and in younger age-groups that figure tips conclusively to a majority – 61% of 16-24’s posted Olympic comments. Think about that figure for a moment. Well over half of the young people in the UK are now participants in social media and pass comment on sport. The genie is out of the bottle and it will never be forced back. That is the main reason that Armageddon never happened: we no longer live in an age where the media can guarantee our compliance.
On the first day of the 2012-13-season, Rangers were in the deep throes of administration and facing certain liquidation. With no accounts to meet the criteria for SPL membership, one among a body of rules which the old Rangers had themselves been an architect of, the new Rangers could not be granted entry without a wholesale abandonment of the rules. It was not to be.
St Johnstone launched their new season at Tynecastle so I travelled with misplaced hope. We were soundly beaten 2-0 and both Hearts goals were entirely merited. On the day, I did a quick if unscientific survey of two supporters’ buses – the Barossa Saints Club, a more traditional lads-bus and the ‘208 Ladies’ a predominantly female and family-friendly bus. On both buses, over 75% of fans had mobile phones with 3G internet access and the majority of them posted updates or pictures before, during or after the match. They mostly posted via micro-blogging sites such as Facebook or Twitter, many commenting on the game, their day-out and the surroundings. Most were speaking to friends or rival fans. Some were publishing pictures and updating forums or blogs. And when he second a decisive goal went in some were undoubtedly taking stick from Gort, Webby DFC and DeeForLife, the pseudonyms of prominent Dundee fans, who as the newly promoted ‘Club 12’ were suddenly and very temporarily above St Johnstone in the SPL.
By my rough calculations, well over half the St Johnstone support was web-connected. I have no reason to think the Hearts supporters were any different. This small experiment reflects an unprecedented shift in the balance of communication in Scottish football and in the truest sense it is an ‘epistemological break’ with past forms of spectatorship. Social media has been widely misrepresented by old-style radio ‘phone-ins’ and by journalism’s ancien regime. The presumption is that people who are connected to the web are at home, in dingy rooms where they foam at the mouth frustrated by loneliness and mental illness. The term ‘internet bampots’ (coined by Hugh Keevins) and ‘keyboard warriors’ (Gordon Strachan) speaks to a world that is fearful of the web, irked by alternative opinions, and the threat that the new media poses to the traditional exchange of knowledge.
It further assumes that opinion from social networks is naïve, ill-informed, or unreasonable. Whilst some of this may be true, mostly it is not. No one would dispute that there are small enclaves of truly despicable people using social networks and comment sites, but they are overwhelmingly outnumbered by the multitude of fans who simply want to talk about their team and share their dreams and memories.
Social media is porous. By that I mean it has cracks, lacunae and fissures. This inevitably means that information leaks out. It can be shared, released and in some cases becomes so energetic it becomes a virus. It is no longer possible to ‘keep secrets’, to withhold information and to allow indiscretions to pass unnoticed. Newspapers have been caught in a whirlwind of change where views can be instantly challenged, authority quickly questioned and pronouncements easily disproved. Many papers – almost all in decline – have been forced to close down their comments forums. Undoubtedly some of that is due to breaches of the rules, the cost of moderation, and the rise in awareness of hate crimes. But another significant factor is that ordinary fans were consistently challenging the opinions and ‘facts’ that newspapers published.
Talking down to fans no longer works and we now have evidence – Armageddon did not happen. The beast that was supposed to devour us all was a toothless fantasy. In the more abrasive language of the terraces – Armageddon shat-it and didn’t turn up.
In one respect the myth of Armageddon was an entirely predictable one. Tabloid newspapers make money from scaring people – health scares, prisoners on the run, fear of terrorism, anxiety about young people, and most recently ‘fear’ of Scottish independence is their stock in trade. Almost every major subject is raised as a spectre to be fearful of. Most newspapers were desperate to ‘save Rangers’ since they themselves feared the consequences of losing even more readership. It was easier to argue that a hideous financial catastrophe would befall Scottish football unless Rangers were fast-tracked back into the SPL. Newspapers found common cause with frightened administrators who could not imagine a world without Rangers, either.
So we were invited to endorse one of the greatest circumlocutions of all time – unless you save a club that has crashed leaving millions of pounds of debt, the game is financially doomed. You would struggle to encounter this bizarre logic in any other walk of life. Unless Rick Astley brings out a new album music will die. That is what they once argued and many still do. That is how desperately illogical the leadership in Scottish football had become.
Armageddon was a tissue of inaccuracies from the outset. It tried to script a disaster-movie of chaotic failure and financial disaster and at the very moment when senior administrators should have been fighting for the livelihood of the league, they were briefing against their own business.
Armageddon was a big inarticulate beast but it faced a mightier opponent – facts. One by one the clubs published their annual accounts. Although this was against the backdrop of a double-dip recession and fiercely difficult economic circumstances it was not all doom and gloom. The arrival of Club 12 (Dundee) meant higher crowds and the potential for increased income at Aberdeen, Dundee United and St Johnstone. To this day, this simple fact remains unfathomable to many people in the Glasgow-dominated media. The arrival of Ross County meant an exciting new top-tier local derby for Inverness Caley Thistle and a breath of fresh air for the SPL. St Johnstone insisted on the first ever SPL meeting outside Glasgow to reflect the new northern and eastern geo-politics of the Scottish game.
European football meant new income streams for Motherwell. Of course times were tight, football is never free from the ravages of the economy and some clubs predictably showed trading losses. But the underlying reasons were always idiosyncratic and inconsistent never consistent across the board. Inverness had an unprecedented spate of injuries and over-shot their budgets for healthcare and so published a loss £378,000.
Meanwhile Dundee United published healthy accounts having sold David Goodwillie to Blackburn. Celtic reached the Champion’s League group stages with all the new wealth it will bequeath. St Johnstone – led by the ultra-cautious Brown family – had already cut the cost of their squad, bidding farewell to the most expensive players Francisco Sandaza and Lee Croft. The club also benefited from compensation for their departed manager, Derek McInnes and player-coach, Jody Morris. Paradoxically, Bristol City had proven to be more important to the club’s income than Rangers. Again this was not part of the script and proved unfathomable (or more accurately irrelevant) to most in the Glasgow media.
Hearts failed to pay players on time due to serious restraints on squad costs and internal debt. They were duly punished for their repeated misdemeanours. Motherwell and St Mirren despite the economic challenges were navigating different concepts of fan ownership. By November most clubs – with the exception of Celtic – were showing increased SPL attendance on the previous season. Far from the scorched earth failure that we were told was inevitable what has emerged is a more complex eco-system of financial management, in which local dynamics and a more mature cost-efficient reality was being put in place.
It may well be that Armageddon was the last desperate caricature of a form of media that was already in terminal decline. Flash back to 1967 when Scottish football had a so-called ‘golden age’. There was European success, we tamed England at Wembley and names like Law and Baxter brightened dark nights. Back then access to knowledge was a very narrow funnel. Only a small cadre of privileged journalists had access to the managers and players, and so fans waited dutifully for the Daily Record to arrive at their door to tell them what was happening. That system of ‘elite access to knowledge’ was in its last decadent throes nearly thirty years later, when David Murray would dispense wisdom to his favoured journalists. We now know they drank fine wine and ate succulent lamb in Jersey and the most loyal attended Murray’s 50th birthday party at Gleneagles. One journalist was so proud of his invite he danced round the editorial office mocking those who had not been invited. This was the early height of the Rangers EBT era but it is now clear that difficult questions went unasked by either journalists or by football administrators.
Although it may not suit the narrative of this particular blog my first realisation that David Murray’s empire was living on leveraged debt was from a small cadre of Rangers fans. It was around the early years of the Rangers Supporter’s Trust (RST) and they were determined to shake more democracy from the Ibrox boardroom. Whilst real fans of the club argued from the outside, the press took Murray at his loquacious word. He was in many respects their benefactor, their visionary – their moonbeam.
By the 1990s onwards, football journalism had ritualised and festered around the inner sanctums at Ibrox. This was an era where relevance meant being invited to a ‘presser’ at Murray Park, having Ally’s mobile or playing golf with ‘Juke Box,’ ‘Durranty’ or ‘Smudger’. Many journalists, showing a compliant lack of self-awareness, would use these nicknames as if conveyed closeness, familiarity or friendship. It is desperately sad that careers have been built on such paltry notions of access and such demeaning obsequiousness.
Around this period I had become a freelance radio-presenter and was presenting Off the Ball with my friend Tam Cowan, a Motherwell fan. We both wanted to fashion a show which saw football not trough its familiar narratives, but through the lens of the ‘diddy’ teams, a term so demeaning that we tried to reclaim it. Refusing to peddle the inevitability of ‘old firm’ power we sensed that journalistic compliance at Ibrox was now so ingrained that it was ripe for satirising. This was the main reason that Off the Ball branded itself as ‘petty and ill-informed.’ It was a self-mocking antidote to those journalists that could ‘exclusively reveal’ breaking stories from ‘impeccable sources,’ which usually meant they had heard it on the golf-course, from Walter, a man who needed no surname.
Many fans are astonished when I tell them how the journalism of this era actually functioned. On Champions League nights, journalists from opposing papers gathered together to agree what to write. Circulation was in decline, money was tight, agency copy was on the increase and foreign trips were under-scrutiny. No one dared miss the ‘big story’. So sports journalists who commonly boasted about their toughness and who ‘feared no one’ were often so fearful of returning home having missed an angle, that they agreed by consensus to run with variations of the same story. Celtic fans may wish to recoil at the image – but journalists would go into a ‘huddle’ at the end of a press-conference to agree the favoured line.
So the summer of 2012 witnessed an ‘epistemological break’ in how knowledge and information was exchanged. But let me go further and taunt Jim Spence one more time. It was the summer we also witnessed an ‘amygdala-crisis’ exposing the way the media works in Scotland. Amygdala is the nuclei in the brain that manages our tolerance for risk and is the key that often unlocks creative thinking. Many people in relatively high places in the media – a creative industry – demonstrated that they could not conceive of change, nor could they imagine what football would look like if Rangers were not playing in the SPL. They not only resisted change but lacked the imagination to think beyond it. A common language began to emerge that tried to ward off risk and an almost a childlike fear of the dark. ‘Scottish football needs a strong Rangers,’ ‘But there will no competition’; ‘other clubs will suffer’; ‘Draw a line in the sand’; ‘It was one man – Craig Whyte’, ‘They’ve been punished enough’ and of course, the daddy of them all – ‘Armageddon.’
The biggest single barrier to change was the lingering and outmoded notion that Rangers subsidised Scottish football. As a supporter of a club that had spent seven economically stable years in a league that Rangers have never played in made me deeply suspicious and I was in the words of the we-forums ‘seething’ that St Johnstone were portrayed as somehow ‘dependent’ on a club that was already fatefully insolvent. Because so little is known about the experience of the fans of smaller clubs, they are often misrepresented. For seven years my friends and I, travelled home and away in the First Division, often narrowly missing out on promotion as rival clubs like Gretna, Dundee and Livingston all used money they did not have to ‘buy’ success. It remains an incontrovertible fact that St Johnstone FC has been among the most consistent victims of fiscal misdemeanour in Scottish football. That is the irreducible issue. Several clubs have very real reasons to loathe financial mismanagement, rogue-trading and those that gain unfair advantage on the back of unserviceable debt.
Social media has allowed these smaller incremental versions of history to be told when the established media had no interest in telling them. Blogs can dig deeper than the back pages ever can and fans are now more likely to meet on Facebook than on a supporter’s bus. Many players now bypass the press completely and tweet directly with fans. Rio Ferdinand’s recent attack on racism in English football has been conducted entirely via social media, over the heads of the press. In the Rangers Tax Case context, restricted documents are regularly shared online, where they can be analysed and torn apart. Those with specialist skills such as insolvency, tax expertise or accountancy can lend their skills to a web forum and can therefore dispute official versions of events.
Not all social media is good. Open-access has meant a disproportionate rise in victim culture. The ‘easily-offended’ prowl every corner of the web desperate to find a morsel that will upset them but that is a small price to pay for greater transparency and even the most ardent bore is no excuse for limiting the free exchange of information.
We have witnessed a summer of seismic change. A discredited era that largely relied on ‘elite access to knowledge’ has all but passed away and information, however complex or seemingly unpalatable, can no longer be withheld from fans. The days of being ‘dooped’ are over.
It has been a privilege to participate in the summer of discontent and I yearn for even greater change to come. Bring it on.
Stuart Cosgrove
Stuart Cosgrove is a St Johnstone fan. He was previously Media Editor of the NME and is now Director of Creative Diversity at Channel 4, where he recently managed coverage of the Paralympics, London 2012. At the weekend he presents the BBC Scotland football show ‘Off the Ball’ with Tam Cowan. He writes here in a personal capacity.
I wonder if the cunning plan was for Sally to build up a 25pt lead for Sevco in the 3rd Div so they could do a CVA and stiff the Creditors and anyone investing in the fund raising?
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-president-campbell-ogilvie-i-havent-1354437
SFA president Campbell Ogilvie: I haven’t been doing my job properly due to my previous association with Rangers
1 Oct 2012 17:01
FORMER Rangers secretary Ogilvie says he has not participated in any meetings or discussions relating to the Ibrox club due to his past connections.
SFA president Campbell Ogilvie admits he has not done his job properly for the last six months because of his previous involvement with Rangers.
The former Ibrox company secretary was employed by the club from 1978 until 2005, when he joined Hearts.
Due to his past connections with Rangers, Ogilvie has not participated in any meetings or discussions during what has been a turbulent time for the Glasgow giants and Scottish football as a whole.
Ogilvie now wants to hold talks with Light Blues chief executive Charles Green so that all parties can move on.
One of the outstanding issues yet to be resolved is a Scottish Premier League-appointed commission hearing, set to take place next month, into alleged undisclosed payments made by Rangers to players in relation to the use of Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs) from 2000 to 2011.
Green has claimed the SPL “were looking to trade SPL status for an admission of guilt on EBTs and a sanction of stripped titles” before his newco Rangers were denied entry to the top flight and voted into the Third Division in the summer.
Speaking at today’s William Hill Scottish Cup third-round draw, Ogilvie said: “Because of my involvement previously with Rangers, I didn’t take part in any of the discussions.
“I haven’t attended any meetings whatsoever. My understanding is that the group looking to take over Rangers had asked for all possible scenarios to be put on the table.
“That’s as far as I’m aware and I can’t comment further quite simply because I wasn’t party to any of the meetings.
“If I’m totally blunt, I believe in the last six months, in many ways, I haven’t been doing my job properly because I couldn’t take part in the debate.
“That’s bothered me, I must admit, but there was no alternative to that.
“It’s been a difficult time for everyone in Scottish football.
“It was difficult for me for different reasons. I couldn’t even take part in the debate and that’s why I’m saying I haven’t been fulfilling my duties properly if I’m totally honest.
“Having said that, there was no way I could have taken part in the debate.”
He added: “Now, things are up and running, and I would like to sit down and speak to Charles Green.
“I thought it was better after the summer to let the dust settle but, as president, I believe I have a role to play in trying to bring things together and moving forward for the future.
“That’s not just relative to Rangers, it’s in any situation with any club.”
A tax tribunal is expected to deliver the long-awaited verdict in the so-called ‘big tax case’ this month, with the soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers disputing a claim by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in relation to their use of EBTs.
Ogilvie has previously admitted he was aware of, and indeed, a member of, the controversial EBT scheme at Rangers, but has claimed he was not responsible for the drafting or administering of player contracts since the mid-90s.
Asked if his position at the SFA will become untenable should Rangers be found guilty of wrong-doing, he said: “Until we know the outcome, I can’t comment any further than I have already done.
“I’ve tried to be upfront throughout this process. Really, we have to see what the outcome is.
“I don’t see that it should make any difference to the way I operate, but I think it’s only fair that we hear the outcome of both that tribunal and the SPL tribunal.
“I’d like to see what the outcome is first of all. You’ve got to remember at the time, when these were operated, they were perfectly legal, if operated correctly.
“So let’s see what comes out of it. Further down the line, we will just have to wait and see.
“If there was a feeling that it was causing an issue, then I would have to discuss that with the Association.”
=======================================
Did you think it was all over when you made these statements Mr Ogilvie.
What about your, more recent, involvement with Hearts.
Is it a coincidence that two clubs on whose board you have sat have ended up with crippling tax debts.
Particularly as you yourself were paid £95,000 though an EBT.
Is this a telling wee quote “I’d like to see what the outcome is first of all. You’ve got to remember at the time, when these were operated, they were perfectly legal, if operated correctly.
Scottish football can not move on with you in post.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:58
‘…That that God does not exist just makes it all the more rediculous.’
——
My Lord Wobbly, if you go in for expressing what it may be your wish should be the case as though it were indeed the case, you could end up like those who assert that The Rangers are the self-same club as the dead Rangers! Mere assertion is no argument.
The blog has agreed,I think, that discussion of a our PERSONAL credos is not desirable, because it is not relevant to the two basic facts, which, as you know, are
that a major football club cheated big-time, and have suffered some of the serious consequences for doing that,
and that our MSM journalists signally failed, and still fail, to deal appropriately with that important story.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:54
Wobbly if those clubs are in the smelly now they would have been in the smelly even when Rangers were in the league. Would the vist of Rangers twice in a year have saved them! I doubt it. Without without them in the league we would be where we are today, fact.
jean7brodie says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:38
tomtomaswell says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:41
The interview:
Vlad: So Campbvell vat can you bring to zee Hearts and vat would you change
CO: Let me explain to you what we did at Rangers and how successful it was. I can bring this experience and more to Hearts and they will in a short period of time be everything you hope they will become. I’m sure you hate paying the tax man, well let me just say I can help and if you take me on I’ll prove that to you.
I wish I would proof read before posting 🙂
Can anyone hold Ogilvie to account? who is his boss in the tree or is he top?
briggsbhoy says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 21:20
1 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:54
Wobbly if those clubs are in the smelly now they would have
been in the smelly even when Rangers were in the league. Would the vist of Rangers twice in a year have saved them! I doubt it.
Without without them in the league we would be where we are today, fact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No argument from me.
Not quite sure but would have been the same people who could have held Peat and Farry to account but did not corrupt to the core
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
One wonders if Hearts have ever funded a good night out for Campbell Ogilvie.
john clarke says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 21:15
Well said pal!!
Agrajag says: at 14:00
Good link – thx – good info
– If it helps for background – on casino etc development stuff
I know, in spring 2008, because it was news at the time, that the RFC Board as then was, plus advisors, were touring large planning offices in London. Some of the offices that had worked/ working on Wembley, Arsenal and Tottenham and those involved with the Olympics were visited at the time – I was aware RFC included a casino in the planning mix. Nothing unusual and follows the regional casino history from your link. I didn’t know what happened after that – but turns out later in 2008 they awarded the commission to Glasgow firms. These firms’ websites mention Las Vegas Sands Inc – no secret.
http://www.pp-d.co.uk/home/commonwealth-games/ – And again Las Vegas Sands mentioned here:
http://www.mcinally-associates.co.uk/ibrox.htm – again – no problem
Whatever the ins and outs of Las Vegas Sands – their involvement wasn’t hidden – but all dropped 2008
Ellis in 2010 tried again – this time with a Tesco superstore as the planning lynchpin. Rejected by the City even ignoring major traffic issues. Later the amended G51 thing – http://www.lochturret.com/planning.html – but no casino or super casino mentioned nor Las Vegas Sands. No `super duper` casino alas – and they’ve been at it for nearly a decade – no harm in trying though I suppose. Anything possible of course – but struggling with the idea that the blue part of the city will/can regularly wander down the Copland road and drop a few grand on the tables every evening – and perplexed LVS story still being re-circulated after all these years? Reality is Tesco – and even that didn’t work in a semi industrial estate.
In a statement given outside New Broadcasting House, Mr Entwistle said: “I have decided that the honourable thing to do is to step down.”
Thirteen words that Ogilvie should repeat …. immediately.
ordinaryfan says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 13:34
17 16 Rate This
Agrajag: If you weren’t so patronising at other times I would know when you were just being genuinely inquisitive. SEEMS to me it is best not to talk at all, then we are not spoiling the site for others and wasting our own time. I honestly have no problem with you except occasionally it SEEMS you are patronising me. Genuinely wish you all the best and leave it at that.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I read this site but rarely comment.
I do not think it is unreasonable to ask for the link. Is it an old article from the ” Moonbeam” days, remember those?
Hotels, Casino, Floating pitches, lowering the ground to make Ibrox seat 80,000 etc?
Supply the link & let us all judge on the merits of it, don’t post possible junk & act offended when someone asks for confirmation of its provenance..
Rangers casino plan 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4264114.stm
Rangers have entered into a partnership with Las Vegas Sands Inc. whose president William Weidner said last year that it intended to bring “fun, increased employment and enhanced public facilities” to the area.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 18:58
6 7 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 16:02
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be fair DP, although I would agree that some of the jelly, ice-cream and popcorn comments were somewhat over played, I was particularly impressed by the restraint shown by the vast majority of posters. Given the extent of cheating by Rangers, and given the supremacist attitude coming from many of the Rangers support even in the face of their club’s embarrassing behaviour …
———
I don’t disagree with you m’Lud. But it is worth trying to engage with a fan of newco Rangers if this is going to be a broad church. On RTC there were, at times, waves of uber gloating from some posters. That probably only served to alienate one set of supporters. If you had the temerity to admit any connections to the blue side there were some who came with the accusations of troll, H**, and whatever. It’s not a popular thing to say but it came across a bit like that. So I think I understand hangerhead’s point. It was an individual poster thing though, nothing from RTC himself obviously. He seemed to frown on the excesses. When challenged people will be naturally defensive. But when challenged and taunted they will probably shut down the reason function and dismss the information. I feel facts, facts and more facts are the only antidote to ignorance. And thank goodness RTC and TSFM are top heavy on fact. My question to hangerhead is more philosphical: Do many newco fans ever stop to analyse why they and their club are disliked so much? The gift to see ourselves as others see us and all that.
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 20:09
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just my take. What is it that you think they have come to stand for?
I have no experience of Combat 18 stuff, but I have heard and read lots of Rangers/The Rangers fans spouting on about defending their ‘traditions’. This invariably comes back to Protestantism. Personally I find that to be every bit of an anachranism as Catholicism. Football arguments between Celtic and Rangers fans seem to me to be, for the most part,merely throwing a veil over the real reason for the antagonism. I could be wrong.. and I hope I am. I would be much more optimistic if all the hatred was purely down to football.
——————————–
I do agree with you to a certain extent Wobbly, I believe a lot of people hate/dislike Rangers due to factors other than football. Where I would disagree is that this is due to their own religious preference, a lot of Protestants support the other teams but still lose no sleep over the disappearance of Rangers.
Of course there are some who feel a misguided sense of belonging to a specific church and use that to feel part of something, when that is challenged or ridiculed that leads to them attacking the other side. On both sides, I believe a large percentage of them are not, have never been and will never be religious.
My own personal take is this, I hate (yes, I said hate, no sugar coating here) Rangers due to the constant abuse both physical and verbal I have had to endure the whole time I lived in Scotland simply because I choose to follow Celtic from the age of 14. I am a Fenian even though I am not a Republican, I am a Pape even though I am not Catholic, I am a Pedophile even though I view children as nothing more than noisy, expensive, disrespectful little people that should be avoided at all costs, I am a Gypsy even though I have never owned a caravan (if that is indeed how you denote an ethnic group so diluted and integrated into other cultures over the last 700 years), I love to snack on potatoes apparently, I was born out of wedlock, have a soap allergy and I am on the same intellectual level as a fish. And of course my dole cheque (even though I have never had one as contrary to popular opinion, I work for a living) is a constant drain on the hard working tax paying Rangers fans of Scotland.
I am inferiour in almost every measurable way, I am definitely NOT seen as one of the people.
What’s not to hate?
Why is anyone commenting on personal religious beliefs or lack thereof on this blog? It is explicitly and correctly forbidden.
Agrajag says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 21:57
1 0 Rate This
Rangers casino plan 2005
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4264114.stm
Rangers have entered into a partnership with Las Vegas Sands Inc. whose president William Weidner said last year that it intended to bring “fun, increased employment and enhanced public facilities” to the area.
————-
Had never seen that story. The mind boggles. You’d think the last thing an area of high-unemployment needed was a gambling den. A better investment surely would have been selling a few expensive players and setting up more opportunity for local youth in the form of talent schools, football academies, and so on. Might even have saved some kids from going off the rails and given them a sense of self-worth; and who knows, uncovered some genuine football players for the future.
So the implication is that Las Vegas Sands is dodgy, being investigated for money laundering and drug trafficing in the US and are somehow connected to some of the main players in the Rangers saga? Guilt or guilt by association?
Please allow me to share a few thoughts with you which may yet again receive multiple Thumbs down or even result in my post being removed. I will take the chance.
I am sitting on a Saturday night watching on television the Royal British Legion Service of Remembrence. A very dignified occasion well prepared and presented.
Tomorrow morning I will go to the local Cenotaph and join with many others in remembering those who gave all in the various wars. in the small town where i stay the service will be conducted by the local minister. The music will be provided by the Salvation Army and the local Orange Order. I have been attending for so many years i couldnt guess how many. Both bands will be well turned out and always play appropriate music. I must give them all enormous credit.
Everything is done properly and is very dignified.
Next year i and the remaining members of my family will travel to Italy to keep a promise to my now departed mother to visit the War Grave of her only brother who left home in 1943 to serve his country and never returned.
And why am I saying all this in a blog dedicated to monitoring Scottish football.
Let me tell you why i am doing this.
This afternoon I managed to pick up on the Internet coverage of The Rangers game being televised by Rangers TV.
i am a football fan and watch anything and everything on the box or on the internet.
During the commentary in the first half they made reference to an appearance at half time of some 400 or so military personnel.
I stayed tuned in to witness what i hoped would be a dignified parade allowing fans the opportunity to show support for our military and respect for the departed.
What did I see? A bloody rabble.
Several hundred military personnel did descend onto the park.
They ran, they jumped, they kicked a ball about. They chased and hugged rangers substitutes warming up on the park. They ran into the crowd and posed for pictures. They dived about the goalmouth, and all the time the baying crowd sang Rule Brittania.
It was a shambles, it was a disgrace and it was totally inappropriate.
This football club, born of the ashes of a similar club who failed to pay millions of pounds in taxes disgraced the memory of those who had fallen in all the wars.
I watched it, I witnessed it.
Do these morons think for a minute that it was only Rangers Supporters who died in the war.
who on earth in our services authorised the attendance at Ibrox of servicemen and allowed them to behave in such a disorderly and inappropriate way.
I am disgusted at them.
But not half as disdusted as i am at that shower in charge at ibrox who arranged such a display.
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:04
0 0 Rate This
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You might recall that I was one that defended and promoted the likes of Adam from the beginning, so I hope you agree that I have no problem with engaging other points of view. I recall some (understandable) gloating on RTC, but über gloating was, I thought, conspicuous by its absence. The likes of Sam, The Accountant and numerous ‘others’ were given short shrift and deservedly so. Maybe it’s a perception of degree.
To answer your question about whether Rangers/Sevco fans understand the perception of why either club was/is disliked, I doubt it. It’s a case of tunnel vision. There is a lot if it about.
Sadly the poppy,like the union flag before it,has been hijacked by the uber loyalist muppet type.
Anybody think that the BBC’s embarrassments re Mr Entwhistle, Jimmy Saville etc.. – (Lord Patten criticized the “unacceptable, shoddy journalism”) – might have an effect in the BBC Scotland Sport’s department where ‘shoddy journalism’ would appear to be very much accepted?
Today, I watched Clyde lose to the worst side I have ever had the mis-fortune to witness. And you know whay, I blame the absence of Rangers from the SPL for that. I mean, I know the two events aren’t connected, but that apparently doesn’t stop Traynor etc. So…..
Worst result in Clyde’s history. Absence of Rangers from SPL to blame.
wjohnston1 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:38
Thanks for taking the time to write that.
Can I commend this to you, from Paul’s blog but not Paul himself. Apologies if this has already been posted.
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/20….nd-remembrance/
And a much shorter thought, but none the less worth reading.
Tony McKelvie @TonyMcKelvie
Remembrance is an important gesture for every society. Using it to gather kudos for self defeats the purpose. Celebrating it is antithetical
That didn’t work, sorry
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/11/10/ecojons-personal-thoughts-and-feelings-on-poppies-and-remembrance/
bill1903 @ 22:42
Sevcovians and their predecessors, have hijacked Remembrance Day in an attempt to bolster their diminishing relevance in the modern world
It’s just one more extension to their outdated supremacist vision, where they see everyone else as inferior to themselves
Like the dinosaurs, their time has come and gone, but they don’t realise that
They are an anachronism, and the world will be a better place when they disappear for good
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:38
3 0 Rate This
Danish Pastry says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:04
0 0 Rate This
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You might recall that I was one that defended and promoted the likes of Adam from the beginning, so I hope you agree that I have no problem with engaging other points of view. I recall some (understandable) gloating on RTC, but über gloating was, I thought, conspicuous by its absence. The likes of Sam, The Accountant and numerous ‘others’ were given short shrift and deservedly so. Maybe it’s a perception of degree.
To answer your question about whether Rangers/Sevco fans understand the perception of why either club was/is disliked, I doubt it. It’s a case of tunnel vision. There is a lot if it about.
————–
Wobbly, I’ve noticed you engage all types with a nice slice of humour. I was only speaking in general terms. It’s about perception as you say. I do think that RFC fans are more ignorant of the facts because they are so obsessed with being loyal. Their belief in and subservience to authority leaves many of them unquestioning. Hence the tunnel vision you mention. It makes them easy victims to the likes of Murray, Whyte, Ogilvie. And because their loyalty dictates their club can do little wrong the inevitable result is defending the indefensible. Some probably think Green was the ultimate philanthropist today with his offer to ‘help’ Hearts. Even Traynor called it opportunistic.
Danish,
Other than yourself, onand, and so few others I can’t even remember their names, the posters on RTC by and large were of the opinion that Rangers were not to blame and that everything that happened was someone else’s fault. It is hardly surprising that they were an easy target. At least the Hearts supporters are understanding and seem concerned. I never got that impression on RTC regarding Rangers supporters. The vast majority seemed to think that nothing would happen, the tax case would be won and Craig Whyte was a demi-god. Their in-built supremacist belief seemed to give them a mis-placed comfort.
madbhoy24941 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:11
————————————–
My other favorite back in the day, although not quite as offensive as some, was turncoat.
Ah, to be back in the west of Scotland…..
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 21:24
‘Yeah. You’re right.
But so am I.
—-
Maybe, my lord..
If you are, you won’t have the satisfaction of saying ‘ see, I told you’.
While, if you are not,…… I may be allowed a wee apologetic smile!:)
Fair enough?
Just watched a DVD on drag racing and a comment regarding one of the drivers by a competitor who had a Pratt and Whitney engine in his car instead of the usual super charged models was “Charles has a hair dryer on a roller skate” I immediately thought, that’s how the man acts and speaks.
Then again, could that not be a statement of one heading to oblivion?
bill1903 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:42
Sadly the poppy,like the union flag before it,has been hijacked …….
=====
And if we’re not careful the Saltire is going the same way.
M8Dreamer
Further to all the posts on here today there is no place in Scottish Football for Religion in any shape or form.
Football is football and anyone who has religious views, should ensure that these remain private and are not part of the sport that we love.
m8dreamer says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 00:52
M8Dreamer
Further to all the posts on here today there is no place in Scottish Football for Religion in any shape or form.
Football is football and anyone who has religious views, should ensure that these remain private and are not part of the sport that we love.
————————————————————————————————————-
Spealing from personal experience here in the north east, religion appears to be WoS problem. TD’s accepted
Fair shout no accountability. Makes you wonder how our game really tick’s, silence seems to be the way.
Just listened to Friday’s SSB phone-in podcast.
Hugh Keevins suggested that it was entirely ‘immoral’ of Hearts to to ask their fans to financially support the club for what he called ‘their own financial mismanagement’ when, just a fortnight ago, he was lauding supporters of a team called ‘The Rangers’ for helping out their club ‘in their time of need’ and encouraging them to make an ’emotional investment’ in the club.
Hypocrisy and bias at its most blatant – the man is a disgrace to his profession, a pseudo-intellectual purveyor of untruths and dishonest opinions.
In my humble opinion.
Just had another look at the SPL table, it must be the most competitive league ever, with the exception of Dundee, any team that wins 2-3 games in a row will find themselves at the top.
Can only be good for the game, hopefully this will bring an increase in fans as the league progresses.
I hope Hearts find a solution to continue through administration/CVA or raise the money needed as I can see a lot of gloating from the MSM (Domino effect), and a lot of the Newclub fans predicting the death of the SPL, and wishing more clubs to fold. Truly sickening the mindset.
Are the papers due in shortly?
wjohnston1 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:38
I am disheartened by the way the Remembrance Day I remember has somehow been turned into a glorification of the Armed Forces.
It is as if it is becoming Armed Forces day.
This is not a critique of Rangers, but of modern British society.
The Poppy Appeal this year was launched with a pop concert in Trafalgar Square.
Pixie Lott told the crowd that: “If it gets really rock ’n roll then feel free to jump in the fountains as that always works.”
Ms Lott, who obviously knows a lot about the symbolism of the Poppy and its relationship to the Great War, told the audience that: “I would encourage everyone to show their support for the brave men and women of our armed forces and to wear their poppy with pride.”
So the Poppy is now about supporting our armed forces and we should wear it with pride!
I always wore it with great sadness.
My grandfather signed up for WWI, like many other kids, by lying about his age.
He thought it was a big adventure. The glory of war and defending your country, and all that.
He bought the propaganda.
My grandfather was shot and severely injured at Passchendaele but survived. His older brother was killed in Palestine.
I was brought up and schooled on the WWI war poets.
They were able to articulate the horrors of war and the fact that a whole generation had been recklessly sent into a giant mincing machine for no good reason.
Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori…
Those who suffered the hell of the trenches made it clear that the true way to honour the fallen was to remember their sacrifice and affirm that you would do what you could to ensure that future generations of young men were never again sent off to die in needless conflicts.
That is what Remembrance Day came to mean to me and many others. A day when you lament the tragedy of the Great War and affirm not to repeat the sins of the past.
Sadly, it is now turning into a glorification of war.
Support our Heroes, and all that.
Dulce et Decorum est pro patria mori…
The Poppy, and the memory of the fallen from WWI, is now being used as a symbol that is being deliberately conflated with new conflicts in foreign fields.
It has become a political and cultural crutch supporting the very activities the generation who died in the trenches would have wanted to avoid most.
Was their sacrifice not enough for us?
Do we need to keep repeating the sins of the past?
Can we not truly honour their sacrifice by once again reaffirming our belief that sending young men into conflict should be the last resort instead of the geo-political tool of choice of politicians who have little concept of the reality of war?
And this morning, I will also remember how our heroes are actually treated by the Governments that sent them into hell.
Homes fit for heroes, and all that.
It is the same again now. Our heroes are disregarded and cast aside like a spent cartridge by the State.
The homeless hostels of today are full of the heroes of yesterday.
And so here we are, being asked to buy a Poppy to help young men mentally traumatised and physically disabled by tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I know I am out of synch with modern Britain and many on this blog will no doubt be upset that I air such views on Remembrance Day.
I apologise in advance if I have offended anyone.
I can only assure them that I will honour and remember the fallen today – it’s just that I will do so in a way that differs from the Poppy zeitgeist that appears to have recently enveloped the nation.
raycharlez says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 02:34
Eloquent and heartfelt. Bravo sir! I concur absolutely.
raycharlez says:
I dont think your post will offend anyone, I think you hit the nail on the head, The poppy appeal has changed in many peoples eyes from remembrance of the fallen to the support of the armed forces. I actually got a flashback by your post, I studied two war poems for my ‘o’ Levels away back in 1984, Dulce et Decorum Est was one, I cannot grasp the other. One was written by Herbert Asquith ( I think ), I can always remember a line ” Gas, gas quickly boys, an ecstasy of fumbling”
Sorry for rambling on, and off topic.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/no-logic-in-hmrc-s-bid-to-wind-up-hearts-claims-sergejus-fedotovas-1-2627684
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spl/aidan-smith-no-laughing-matter-if-hearts-marooned-1-2627727
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/top-football-stories/sergejus-fedotovas-taking-a-stand-1-2627691
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/hearts-fate-ultimately-depends-not-on-the-taxman-but-on-vladimir-romanov.19385850
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/hearts-decline-ibrox-cash.19385903
Last year I took a trip from Bangkok to go to Kanchanaburi where there is a railway bridge made famous in the film Bridge on the River Kwai. I went to the “Death Camp” remains and also visited the grave yards of all the soldiers who died in the camp.
The thing that struck me was the ages of the “men” who had come all the way from Scotland (50 years ago it was a huge trek and a world removed from Scotland – no planes nor Irish Bars etc to get Scottish games on TV of course).
Many of my fellow Scots were 18 years old and died in horrible circumstances.A long long way from home.
I have lived in Germany and also visitied many camps.
I have talked to many Germans, Japanese, East Europeans and Russians as well on their WW2 views. My interest on WW2 is why did the human race turn on itself to cause millions of deaths.
One recurring theme is the sort of nationalistic nonsense trumpeted by such songs as Rule Britannia and songs of that ilk sung down Ibroax way – anything that demans other humans as being something less than you shoudl be banned and dealt with by others.
This nationalistic nonsense is what alienates me from the club that plys its trade down Govan way – it is not banter. It is nationalistic jingoism that gets us into trouble everytime it rears its ugly head.
What visiting Kanchanaburi graveyards, German death camps and watching Michael Moor’s documentary on Iraq has taught me is very somple
Never trust what anyone in charge is telling you.
Simple lesson that we can also apply to Jock Tamson – whomever he may be – we may be his bairns, but he is an idiot!.
According to the press, hearts have refused a compromise deal with The Rangers whereby newco Rangers would pay them less than 2/3 of the money owed but they’d get it earlier. This gives prompts a few thoughts: perhaps hearts aren’t quite in their own armageddon situation if they can knock back so decent chunk of change and can hold out for full payment. Also, I would put newco’s offer as more slightly sharp practice than outright blackmail, but wasn’t the condition of entrance into the SFL that they paid football creditors IN FULL? Already Vienna have accepted a reduced payment as they were concerned they wouldn’t get any of what was still outstanding and now newco are trying to take advantage of another teams financial woes to keep more money legitimately owed to other teams? Plus vs change.
Finally, I am impressed and humbled by some of the posts regarding Remembrance Sunday – not “poppy day”, thanks to those posters sharing their thoughts.
john clarke says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 00:21
3 0 Rate This
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 21:24
‘Yeah. You’re right.
But so am I.
—-
Maybe, my lord..
If you are, you won’t have the satisfaction of saying ‘ see, I told
you’.
While, if you are not,…… I may be allowed a wee apologetic
smile!:)
Fair enough?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Aye, fair enough. But if I’m not it’s more likely I’d have a Craig Whyte-like expression on my coupon 😯
So here’s one on account 🙂
Just in case 😉
Oh Great. The tiresome poppy appeal debate is here again. I lost family in WW1 & 2. I do not need 60 seconds of silence to remember them. Wearing an emblem of rememberance is not designed to be a barrometer of how ‘Loyal’ or how Brittish you are. Nor does anyone have the right claim to be a better person just because you have a ‘Badge’ to prove it. Rememberance and Grief have been hikacked for the use of certain parties who have an altogether different grasp of the meaning of Respect and Dignity. I contribute to the appeal in the hope that my donation can help someone who may be suffering not to show the world how great I am. I do not wear the badge. Contributing to any charitable cause is a decisiona for the individual and the people who do so on a regulas basis do not advertise or seek plaudits for their kind actions. Keep your thoughts, Keep your silence, and keep your respect.
raycharlez says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 02:34
=======
Thank you for an uplifting and humbling statement of what Remembrance Sunday used to mean, and should still mean now, in any decent society. A piece that deserves wider publication, in my opinion.
By contrast, what I have read of yesterday’s goings on at Ibrox just scunners me. What a contrast!
Humble Pie says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 01:51
“Hugh Keevins ………..
Hypocrisy and bias at its most blatant – the man is a disgrace to his profession, a pseudo-intellectual purveyor of untruths and dishonest opinions.”
=========
Yes, but he is consistently so.
Been having a “discussion” on faceboak with a fan triggers broom regarding the Wallace money. He stated rangers did the right thing by offering us 500k now in full settlement because we stabbed them in the back.
They still don’t get it do they? At least as Jambos we know Vlad is a bit bonkers but we would be playing at muddyfield now if we hadn’t taken his shilling. Now we have to man up and try and save our team. And what an effort we are achieving. We don’t play the blame game, we roll our sleeves up and get together. With help from our true friends in football we will survive in some form with our history intact.
Once we strip the high earners etc we should be able to stand on our own two feet. We knew this day was coming………….
I still want answers as how this came out the blue.
Do they never look in the cheque book.
The disgraced McCoist [two charges of bringing the Scottish game into disrepute – who demands apologies but doesn’t give them] and last time I looked was a manager under wide criticism for dress code and results by his own lot –– and is quite likely to be replaced any time soon with the next embarrassing result, and despite managing a squad that costs 7m pa that is now out of the Ramsdens and League Cups by October and lost to the lowest ranked team in Scotland. – has now been given multiple MSM airings in the last couple of days to air his views on the potential Scotland Manager, wise words on the current predicament of Hearts, his wisdom of crisis management, state of the nation and such and so forth – or about 50 [sorry checked back – 53 now] on-line articles in the last two days. So we can take it the MSM rewards airtime for disrepute and underperformance [not an opinion – an observation of fact]
Hearts, running on debt and Dual Contracts.
There seems to be a bit of an arguement that Hearts have somehow been defrauding the world by operating the club while having to manage a substantial level of debt.
If that is the case then, as we all know, it can be levelled at various clubs in various leagues across the world. While it is not an ideal situation, it is a reality and Hearts are therefore no more guilty than others in the same position, be they football clubs or any other businesses.
The main difference with Hearts and the now extinct Rangers is that the bulk of their debt is in the one place is controlled by the club owner and that, to date, they have managed to pay the taxman.
When the club is in trouble with the taxman and/or there were other ‘outside’ and major creditors screaming for their cash, that is when more serious charges of financial doping can begin to surface.
However at this time we have an owner who has used a bank within his control to sustain and manage the debt. Therefore Vlad being ,’the club’ it owes the money to itself.
The next question is if the loan taxcase, if proven, amounts to finacial doping?
As discussed previously in relation to Rangers, the issue of Dual Contracts and the tax issue with regards to tax being paid on loan players , can I once again remind people of the FIFA minimum requirments for player contracts published in 2008.
http://www.rdes.it/RDES_3_08_FIFA1171.pdf
4.6 The Club and the Player agree on the payment of taxes according to national legislation (cf 5.4 below: who is paying what and when)
5.4 The Player and Club agree on the payment of taxes according to national legislation (cf 4.6 above)
Lord Nimmo Smith in the Rangers case has identified destinct periods, or chapters as he refers to them, where SPL rules changed over the years and thus these set out what was required in terms of footballing rules at specific times..
If Hearts have clearly laid out the payment plan and tax arrangements for the loan players then they have nothing to worry about in terms of footballing rules.
However like Rangers, they could still be found guilty of willful tax avoidance or at the very least being in recepit of poor tax advice. The scale is somewhat different but the ‘crime’ would be similar in nature and I think it most likely that they will find themselves facing a general charge of bringing the game intio disrepute.
Like many other businessmen I am sure Vlad will have been looking at ways to reduce the wage bill and tax liabilities.
Whether he got good advice and how he acted upon it is a different matter.
The question that still niggles away at me is that, as an owner, despite what tax lawyers and accountants were saying surely you would get advice from the person within your organisation who had the most knowledge with regard to footballing rules and procedures to ensure you were ‘clean’ on that front.
Once again what is it that Campbell Ogilvie actually brought to the table both at Rangers and Hearts and what the hell does he do at the SFA?
So:-
Sevco’s £300,000 offer (!) to help HMFC = ‘we admit that we are not, after all, not debt free’?
In addition, it is, in all probabality (they knew it would be rejected?) just another CG PR stunt, but Hearts should use it as a lever to go for the full amount asap.
wjohnston1 says:
Saturday, November 10, 2012 at 22:38
Do these morons think for a minute that it was only Rangers Supporters who died in the war.
————————————————————————————————————————–
Or even just British people. And what exactly does Britannia rule anyway? Maybe they should add a line, “Thank you Russia, as without you we’d have been toast.” USA too obvious!
Sorry – delete the second ‘not’. Makes no sense otherwise!!
Were the instalment payments for this transfer the subject of an agreement between Hearts and TRFC, or is this part and parcel of the infamous “five way agreement” to which Hearts were not a party? Just interested.
First thing to right the wrongs ( as many have said before me) is to SACK CAMPBELL OGILVIE IN DISGRACE FOR HIS PART IN THE CHEATING WHICH CAUSED THE DEMISE OF TWO OF SCOTLAND’S FOOTBALL CLUBS why is he still there apparently doing heehaw and getting paid handsomely ?? Even if keevins said he is an ‘honourable man’ that, shug sums up what we all think of the drivel you speak and print on a weekly basis. Rid Scottish football of all cheats of any description and get our football authorities and clubs to something we can all be proud of……… Turnbull Hutton where are you 🙂
I’m sure it has been said before, but Hearts are not entitled to the money at this time. Sevco offered then a deal to get some cash now. The benefit to Hearts is that it helps them out a hole. The benefits to Sevco is they get that debt off the balance sheet and save a few quid (300,000 quid). Sevco are being a little cheeky, but they are entitled to do so. TD me as much as you like, you know I’m right.
If there is a story, it is in why Hearts would turn down the money. They either want administration to happen sooner than later – which means a quick CVA, points deduction, then get on with it – or it is all a scare tactic to get bums on seats at the games.
Whatever happens, we live in interesting times.
Brenda says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 11:00
Agreed Brenda. It was suggested that Mr Ogilvie only kept his job at the SFA because he is a Football Administrator of the highest order. I have heard tales that he can quote chapter and verse the SFA T’s and C’s and keep his audience entertained with this meaty material for hours.
That may be so, but the man is an embarassment. He is clearly an in-demand administrator because he will sign anything and knows nothing. What an absolute shambles of a man. If he is the “honourable man” that Hugh Keevins suggests, he should retire from Football Administration. I’m not suggesting he should be the fall guy. I don’t believe he is the root of the problem. I believe he is a weak man who was out of his depth, dealing with stronger personalities who were determined to follow a certain path. However, his hands are dirty by association (with a small “a”) and inaction.
If Mr Ogilvie resigned tomorrow and turned whistleblower, I would have all the respect for him in the world. I can’t see it though. He will remain, like the MSM and the other enablers, a national disgrace.
Palacio67 says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 02:51
23 0 Rate This
raycharlez says:
Off topic but thanks for bringing this to my attention guys. WWI poetry wasn’t something touched on when I was at school. Philip Larkin on the other hand…..
——————————–
DULCE ET DECORUM EST
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound’ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Wilfred Owen
8 October 1917 – March, 1918
I commend the Hearts fans on here. All accepting that this was always coming, due to mad Vlad the perfect Bond villain. Again nothing to do with the fans just a spending policy that was not sustainable, to go chasing a now dead club. Celtic could have went the same way after O’neil’s crazy spending and big contracts. Thankfully our board were wise to it and adopted a sustainable model, allowing the doped up behemoth across the city to continue to spend their way to success. Pain we felt as we were cheated but our club remains intact. Now we will reap the reward of the seeds the board sowed. I hope the Hearts fans can save their club and not adopt the we are to big to fail attitude. Mad Vlad hopefully yous can get rid of and get yourself’s back on track with developing youth players. Their is going to be years of pain but at least yous can accept that, hopefully we as fans of other clubs embrace that and fill out your ground to help yous out.
While i’m on a poetry kick, this is for all the Jambos.
———————————————————————
Victory in Defeat by Edwin Markham
Defeat may serve as well as victory
To shake the soul and let the glory out.
When the great oak is straining in the wind,
The boughs drink in new beauty, and the trunk
Sends down a deeper root on the windward side.
Only the soul that knows the mighty grief
Can know the mighty rapture. Sorrows come
To stretch out spaces in the heart for joy.
Simple question here.
If Rangers owe Hearts £800k for Wallace and c£200k for Templeton, a total of c£1m which they seem to accept.
Then how can Charles Green claim that the club is free from external debt and no-one in the press even questions it.
It is really just as simple as meet the new boss, just the same as the old boss.
Agrajag @ 11:53
It’s quite simple really
In Charlie’s world it’s not really debt, as.it’s just money owed to another club as part of the transfer fee, which is not due to be paid yet
In Sevconian accountancy it only becomes debt if it is not paid on time
Morning all,
I’m a long time, avid reader of the blog (and RTC follower since early days) and I have finally decided to sort my wordpress account out and make a very modest contribution for once.
Firstly let me thank those individuals who have done a great job of reminding me what Remembrance Sunday and the symbol of the Poppy really means and why we should all show some respect and give some thought to this hugely important subject. We cannot and most not allow symbols such as the poppy be hijacked to represent something it was never intended to and which seems in such stark contrast to the real purpose of Remembrance.
As for the morons who then extend this to adopt it into their own bizarre superiority complex (has ever their been a less “superior” group of people to hold such a complex?) I cannot say express just how low these people are IMO and how sad it makes me that this sort of mentality is rife in my country.
Secondly and perhaps more on topic of the forum, I note at least one post suggesting Green had not paid the training compensation due for Templeton. I cannot say if the fees due have been paid or not but as far as I understand it the question is NOT of training compensation but of a straightforward transfer fee – Templeton was not out of contract with Hearts. The article below suggests Green offered £1M initially for Templeton and McGowan but had to increase this. If anyone has a better link we might establish what the Templeton fee actually was.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19431326
Oops I have just spotted this one which is even more damning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20281242
So the £500k offered by Rangers isn’t just in exchange for the £800k owed for Wallace – it apparently includes writing off the Templeton fee as well. Given the Templeton fee could be anywhere from £500k – £1m itself this is a tawdry offer from Green and once again The Rangers display a lack of any decency, class or dignity. They are chancers to a man and the cheek to publicize this offer as if it is some sort of altruistic act is staggering.
If they are such a decent and upstandig organisation why not offer to pay the £500k due for Wallace in January now. It would only be a matter of weeks early and Green claims to have no debts so whats the problem?
campsiejoe says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 12:02
Magic, so I’m debt free until the end of the month when the bills are due.
Agrajag @ 12:06
If you live in Sevcovia you are
However if you live in the real world………………:)
twopanda says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 09:43
41 1 Rate This
The disgraced McCoist [two charges of bringing the Scottish game into disrepute – who demands apologies but doesn’t give them] and last time I looked was a manager under wide criticism for dress code and results by his own lot –……….
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Brenda says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 11:00
18 6 Rate This
First thing to right the wrongs ( as many have said before me) is to SACK CAMPBELL OGILVIE IN DISGRACE ………….
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Two very simple and undeniable points made by twopanda and Brenda for which I commend them. While the blog looks into and debates many more subtle and complex issues these sort of questions must be asked over and again until we get the answers we deserve. I believe we can all see what is going on here but I’d just like to press home that we must never accept this without seeing some sort of progress.
beatipacificiscotia says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 11:08
8 10 Rate This
I’m sure it has been said before, but Hearts are not entitled to the money at this time. Sevco offered then a deal to get some cash now. The benefit to Hearts is that it helps them out a hole. The benefits to Sevco is they get that debt off the balance sheet and save a few quid (300,000 quid). Sevco are being a little cheeky, but they are entitled to do so. TD me as much as you like, you know I’m right …
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Green is a cheapskate. It was an insult to Hearts and yet another disgrace on Ibrox. If he’d had any dignity he’d have paid up the full amount a few months ahead of time, after all, how much debt did his ‘same Rangers’ throw on the bonfire? Green’s original offer was reported at £400,000, that’s not a few quid, that’s half of what they reportedly owed. Utterly pathetic.
readcelt says:
Sunday, November 11, 2012 at 11:27
Ah Wilfred Owen…
Thanks for posting, the memory is not as good as it once was, I did know it off by heart at school.
Asquith must have written the other poem that we had to study.
Mr Green’s offer was quite frankly barra boy mentality.
Right, I see someone who is probably really desperate, in fact could die without help. Here’s a great opportunity. I’ll pay you right now rather than when payment is due, but I want a 40% discount.
That people defend that says a lot about them. That people like Chic Young tried to paint Green as a philanthropist, and Mr Romanov a madman simply beggars belief. Having said that his performance since the Hearts story broke does him and his profession no credit whatsoever.
I seem to recall the two poets we studied were Owen and Sassoon. the memories
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