Guest Blog by Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan
Good Morning,
Can I start by wishing everyone who reads this blog a happy, peaceful and prosperous 2013.
In a few weeks’ time a couple of working class lads from Walsall and Wolverhampton will receive a reasonably sizeable cheque through the door. The money will be entirely expected and meticulously accounted for. A similar cheque will have arrived last year, and both will expect the process to repeat itself automatically this time next year.
The sum concerned will be sizeable—many thousands of pounds— and does not come from any insurance policy, institutional pension plan or other type of financially regulated investment. Further, in order to receive a similar amount next year, the two men will have to do precisely nothing! The money will simply come automatically!
Magic eh?
Well no—not really.
You see Neville and James ( for that is what they are called ) earned this money many years ago by completing a job of work, and they have been getting paid for the same job year in and year out ever since!
Except that you don’t know them as Nevile and James! No you may know them as Jim Lea ( who? you may say ) and Noddy Holder (aka Neville John Holder MBE ) the co author of that perennial Christmas classic “Merry Christmas Everybody”.
These two clever boys came up with their “pension” song by making a Christmas cracker out of tunes they had written and discarded in the past. Lea’s chords from years before provided the tune for the verses, while an earlier rejected composition of Holder’s became the chorus, and in this way it was the past work of both men that secured their future—even back in 1974!
As the song is played to death on Radio, in clubs, in pubs, in shops, on TV and everywhere else at Christmas, the New Year always brings a cheque of sizeable proportions for Messrs Lea and Holder.
However there were four members of Slade and not two, I hear you say!
Whilst that is correct, not every member of the band shares the royalties for ever more, with only the actual composers receiving the big bucks year on year — unless of course the gang of four agreed otherwise between themselves – as sometimes happens—but often doesn’t — in bands and other artistic collaborations!
And that, dear reader, neatly takes me to the current topic of the day on this here planet!!! The reconstruction, reorganisation and profit sharing in Scottish Fitba!!!
It strikes me that the SFA, SPL and SFL all want to come up with their own version of the pension song or product — Something that will make future performances interesting and lucrative for ever more without anyone having to put in too much effort in future.
Of course it is recognised that the clubs at the top of the financial tree have the greatest influence in composing this song, but there is an insistence, and so a desire, that even the minor band members should get a greater share of the royalties going forward.
All very honourable. All very interesting,— and all completely missing the point in my humble opinion.
Now, there is a clamour from the fans that the proposed structure of 12 – 12—18 is flawed and leads to daft consequences when worked through. We want 14- 14 – 14 say many fans or 16- 14 – 12 or some other composition altogether!!
Oh—and the fans want the chairmen to consult the fans before making a decision on anything, and they want Messrs Regan, Doncaster and Longmuir to stop telling fans that they need to be “educated” about what is best for the game!
All very noble! All very interesting, —and all completely missing the point once again in my humble opinion.
Jock Stein once famously proclaimed that football is nothing without fans— almost everyone knows that. Yet how many actually stop to consider those words and what he meant.
There is nothing without fans!!!!!
How many times have you heard commentators, journalists, ex players and even fans refer to the fans as “the paying customers” ? This phrase has made its way into common parlance and is rarely- if ever- challenged or qualified.
So I will ask—is that what the football fan is prepared to be called—“The paying customer”?— is that it?
Are you, dear reader, a paying customer?—and nothing more?
Or is a football fan a “member of a club”—a “ supporter of a club” or even “part” of a club?
If you are just a paying customer does that mean that anyone who turns up at a ground and pays over some money on a solitary Saturday afternoon is to be seen in exactly the same way as the guy or gal who has been a season ticket holder for years and years?
Does the person who sits behind their keyboard and blogs and comments for Britain on matters football—but who never goes to a game or who does not spend a penny following or promoting their proclaimed club – have the same strength of voice as that season ticket holder—or even the guy who stumps up the cash to view a game once a year?
Not a chance in my view!!!
Equally though, if you have a Football Club Board who do nothing whatsoever to attract people into the club apart from throw out a team on a Saturday Afternoon with mixed degrees of success – are they worthy of support from the “paying customer” or anyone else for that matter?
In my view the answer is no— a very loud —NO!!!
If we are going to reconstruct Scottish Football then I am sorry you have to start by looking at exactly what it is you are trying to reconstruct—reconstruct being the appropriate and important word.
The job is to reconstruct—and regain— viable and important interest in Scottish Football and the teams—or clubs—who play in Scotland.
League reconstruction is only part of that process, and the redistribution of television money is only part of the league reconstruction part of the process!
The month of January is named after the Roman God Janus—who had two heads— one for looking forward and one for looking back. Janus was the God of transition—The God of change— and it was always clear that you could only have change going forward by casting an eye back to the past—to see what you wanted to keep from that past, to see what you wanted to jettison, and to see what could be learned from past times.
In the past , football crowds were far larger, revenues proportionally bigger and closer together when comparing clubs, and consequently it might be said that the football product was much better on the park—with various teams outwith the two big Glasgow teams—please do remember the Jags come from Glasgow too and that in the past Clyde and Third Lanark were also natives— competing for and winning trophies.
Nowadays, football clubs have lower attendances—unless of course one of the smaller teams ( I refuse to use the derogatory and well hackneyed phrase that is banded about re smaller Scottish Clubs ) gets to a Hampden final when low and behold anything between 20,000 and 30,000 lost football fans appear as if out of nowhere!!
And hey—if you happen to be a fan of the Ibrox Club or the Parkhead club—don’t go getting too comfy in your seat— where the hell were some of you before Seville or Manchester?
The point is that football is like politics — it all means nothing without participation— real participation. That means fans buying into, spending money on and in, and promoting their club at every opportunity. It means the clubs and their boards using every trick in the book to generate income away from the football pitch. A “Club” in law is no more than a collection of people coming together for a common purpose and a football club is perfectly capable of having genuine “club activity” which does not primarily involve football.
Where are the regional and local initiatives to promote the social aspects of football clubs? Do the facilities for women need upgrading to help persuade more mothers and girlfriends to come to the ground whether that be for games or other events or functions?
In a time of never ending football memorabilia, how many people went to their club shop this Christmas and bought merchandise for family and friends – even if the same family and friends support another club? How many people invite visitors or non football supporting friends to a game on a Saturday—even if it is only every now and then?
In short what do you do to support your club—and what can that club do to get more and more people involved in the club itself or its functions? And what functions could that club become involved in using existing facilities and resources?
Is there a kids club? A weekday crèche? Are there facilities that are not used six days a week which could be used for community groups who have nothing to do with football—or even sport? Should the club hold daft things like race nights, bingo nights— functions that may well attract people who would no more likely go to a football ground on a Saturday than suddenly develop Noddy Holder style sideburns?
How many people take an old shirt or T shirt or towel bearing the club colours on holiday to give to a waiter or a stranger or someone who has no connection with the club—with a view to creating a fan or someone with a bit of interest who might just one day become a season ticket holder or even an occasional “paying customer” at the door?
Further, are there folk out there who could actually go along and volunteer services for their club for nothing and so save the club from spending hard earned cash out of necessity? Could you be a gateman? Could you perform a task for your club on a voluntary basis?
You may think that a daft or utopian ideology but sports clubs traditionally always had a social purpose as well as a sporting one. Clubs were a focus for a locality, or a workforce, or a congregation or just about any group of people who want to come together for sporting or social purposes. Further those who volunteered their services for the common good often got great local recognition for their dedication and spirit.
Ask any Dons fan about Teddy Scott—who although a paid employee was Aberdeen FC through and through—pay or no pay!
The clamour for change in football should not be blinded by the words of the three official bodies and the more vocal chairmen of the clubs that want to play in the league – or not as the case may be. Change should come from the fans of the game up—but to be honest until the fans—or should I say the mysteriously disappearing armchair fans—actually come out and support their clubs a lot more often, then we are not going to see valuable and worthwhile change no matter what the league set up or composition.
On Saturday, I listened to Off The Ball on Radio Scotland where the contributors waxed lyrical about journalists of yesteryear who made the game and broadcasting interesting. Jimmy Sanderson, Bob Crampsey et al – they all got a mention.
The discussion sparked a memory for me when they came to discuss the legend that is Arthur Montford—famously referred to by Jock Stein as “ The Sportsjacket” with reference to his never ending collection of blazers.
Arthur was a journalist—both print and broadcast— with the BBC and then STV since 1957 in terms of television—and with the Evening Times and other papers in terms of the written press.
A lifelong follower of Morton and a keen Golfer and golf commentator, Arthur has been retired this many a year although he can still be seen walking up and down Byres Road occasionally. At one time he became Chairman of Morton and he used to write in the club programme on a regular basis—possibly still does! He is by all accounts a nice man—a good man— sufficiently good and of sufficient standing to have been elected as the Rector of Glasgow University in 1975—beating George Brown and Janey Buchan ( if you don’t know who they were then look them up! )— in the process.
He was the first sports journalist to hold that post.
In his Rectorial address Arthur went to great lengths to highlight what can be achieved if volunteers— individuals— club members if you like— put their shoulders to the wheel and strive for change, for a common purpose, and for society in general. He stressed that such communal effort brought about change—brought about improvement— brought about advancement in numerous situations. This was only three years after Jimmy Reid had used the same platform to denounce the “Rat Race” declaring “ I am not a rat!”.
For football to change in this country we need action—action by the fans—action by the clubs—action by the journalists and commentators to highlight initiatives and opportunities for our football clubs to play a greater part in our communities— from kids to pensioners, from toddlers to mums and dads, local residents to occasional visitors.
That is the way to make your voice heard and to make that voice count. That is the way to bring about the change that you want for the future.
There were four members of Slade—but only two wrote the words and music to Merry Christmas Everybody and it is they who earned the right to the pension royalties for ever more. The other two bit part players did not!
Janus was meant to oversee transition to the future by casting an eye on the past and learning from what went before—as should we when considering Scottish Football—and in that spirit you will find a link to the whole of Arthur Montford’s address below— there are things worth learning there.
Here’s to the future—-NOW—– its only just begun!
http://www.universitystory.gla.ac.uk/documents/UGSD00029.pdf
Campsie
Give us a clue ,I have noticed this ,do we have a gremlin as a moderator ,god forbid.
allyjambo says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 22:04
I remember the Southampton case quite well, it interested me since I spent 7 years in that area in the 70’s, and saw quite a lot of the team. The rule in England was the same as in Scotland- if the company which operates the club goes into administration, then 10 points are deducted. The question of whether club and company are the same doesn’t need to be considered. The only unique aspect of the Southampton case was the fact that the company operating the football side was not in administration, owed no money, yet 10 points were docked anyway. It created quite a stir at the time. However the Football League did not, to the best of my knowledge, consider or need to consider whether club and company were one. What they decided was that Southampton FC Ltd was in effect liable for the sins of the PLC which owned it.
jonnyod says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 19:53
Have all Scottish football clubs not called in the liquidators yet ,if not ,why not ?
What have the got to lose except all their debts .
——
Well, assuming they’d all suffer the same “punishment” as Rangers did, then Division Three would be awful big next year. In fact, being as TRFC would presumably be the only club not to fold and restart, then it’d be everyone in Div 3, except TRFC by themselves in the SPL. Except they’d have to stay in Div 3, because they’re not going to go in the SPL, are they?
So, one big Division Three next year, then. That’ll take a few years to sort out, if only two get promoted at the end of each season – it’ll take a couple of decades to populate the higher leagues. Playoffs at the end of the second year could be interesting, with the Div 2 Champions (out of two teams in their league) getting relegated if they lose their playoff. Chance for a new World Record there.
This reconstruction lark is trickier than it looks.
—
liveinhop says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 20:17
“The Rangers Football Club plc …”
——
liveinhop … you do know that’s the Oldco?
borussiabeefburg says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 20:42
Whether it’s 12-12-18, 14-14-14 or 16-10-16 (wasn’t that TRFC’s proposal last month?) they would start next season in the 3rd tier of Scottish football.
What’s really getting their dander up will be what they see as their divine right to ‘top two’ money being re-distributed to lower placed clubs without their consultation.
Remember, that’s approximate £1m minimum that previously went into Rangers coffers that (even if they make it to top league) won’t be going to TRFC coffers.
Combined with the apparent belief (allegedly on the basis of promises from someone in Scottish football governance) that they were going to be top tier again next season and it’s now becoming abundantly clear that they won’t, can imagine it won’t be long before we see, “WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE!? Pt 2”.
If Ian Black’s tweets during the close season are to be believed, looks like there is going to be one or two players with egg on their face and a most unhappy dressing room next season.
BRTH
Thought provoking ……… before Christmas, I watched the Scotland v England under -16s match on SKY.
I kept with it for nearly an hour and to be honest it would get football banned , the shear tedium of the game which modern coaching had drummed into both sets of young men is unforgiveable. Long gone are the days where you could describe how a good Scottish football functioned and this was usually exemplifed by watching the young boys.
What on earth are we good at in football terms?
As well as all the various bodies upping their game, the component parts are small enough to weave a more community based approach linked to a better STRATEGY of PLAYING BETTER FOOTBALL.
We need to recognise that Scottish football is largely out of step with the rest of Europe and one club in particular, in my view , exemplified the old ‘up and at them’ approach , and win at all costs mentality.
There is only a short window , the next 5 years or so , to implement a better way of playing football (and reffing to recognised European standard) , once playing better football is at the centre piece of the strategy, the correct decisions and investment will flow.
I am however pessimistic as this requires leadership at the top of the game and we have seen recently that the SFA has confirmed that it is the administrative wing of Rangers, the focus will be on re-structure and re-financing the game ……….. we will still be playing a poor , out-moded style of football, with poor fitness levels, and goodness knows what the 2019 under-16 match will be like.
Whilst fan initiatives are laudable and to be encouraged, in the grand scheme of things, the lack of leadership, and self interest of the SFA will scupper and visible improvement in playing football to a better standard.
“@Moonbeamsnomore: HMV lookin set to go into administration. Thats all we need, another Newco claiming to have all sorts of records…”
The Southampton case details
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/8014811.stm
From Lord Mawhinney, the then Football League Chairman:
“We have looked carefully at the holding company’s annual accounts, which include the football club, we sent forensic accountants into the company – not Football League staff, but people whose expertise is to get to the bottom of relationships between companies – and we have taken external legal advice.
“It’s quite clear the holding company and the football club are inextricably linked as one economic entity.
“All of the evidence pointed us to the conclusion that an administrator has been appointed that covers the club or aspects of the club as well as the holding company, and that being the case, we had no flexibility under Football League regulations – we had to apply sporting sanctions.
There was a good article by Will Hutton in yesterday’s Observer that highlighted the lack of governance within football in the UK when comparing it to Germany..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jan/13/football-everything-bad-about-britain
Here is an extract about Birmingham City:
As mawhinney suggested regan for sfa post he might benefit Scottish football by sending a copy of his conclusion up north.
I may or may not be right in stating that Fergus McCann is the only man in recent history to have bought into a football club … transformed it in a space of FIVE years and left with a healthy profit
… Aye / Naw ?
Thus I put it to you ALL
Would it not be good (and interesting) to have his views on how to transform Scottish Football ?
I for one hold Mr McCann in very high regard
I was living overseas at the time of his revolution
But had the Celtic View and The Sunday Mail (for results & match reports) sent to me every week … As we all know, Fergus printed is vision in several papers … AND .. he did what he said he would do .. very successfully !!
He obviously did his homework AND did it well !
I also reckon he would be keeping an eye on events here in Sunny Scotland (as a fan)
Just on the subject of Scottish Football not rfc
maybees aye maybees naw ??
Stuart Cosgrove … do you have his number ?
Sorry for going off on a slight tangent, but there are very strong rumours circulating that Gordon Strachan will be the next Scotland Manager.
I read Auldheid’s paper. I’ve watched the blog make suggestions as to how change can be brought about practically. Supporters trying to ‘organize’ action.
I am now gradually coming to the belief that the beast will be the cause of its own demise.
From the days when it was the least popular thing in Britain to be Irish, to World Cups where the Irish flag symbolized celebration and joy and victory on the football pitch – against the odds -, image was important. People talked about the Tri-colour being ‘reclaimed.’ It represented something negative to many at one point, then transformed itself into something positive – through the actions of a football team (and its supporters!)
I dont think the recent events in Belfast have helped Sevco, and the image of the Union Jack is being trashed internationally at the moment. (I live in a country outside the UK where, during the Olympic Games, the Union Jack proved extremely popular and where young people are still wearing clothes with a UJ motif on them today.)
Something seen as very positive, is presently being transformed into something negative.
God forbid that foreigners might make some sort of connection between Sevco and Belfast.
The 1000 people who gathered for peace, and who were given a voice at the top of last night’s international BBC News, were utterly devastating. All they did was very quietly state their case. They are sick and tired of all this cretinous nonsense.
I hope Auldheid’s paper is published and widely distributed. But lets also remember not to interrupt people when they are making a mistake…. They are engineering their own downfall and dont need any help from us.
Interesting take on things as usual BHRT, I like it. I wonder if the PRS licence was paid for in terms of music played publically at Ibrokes or if they were one of those owed money when Oldco went down. Has the the music at Ibrokes been legally purchased? A PRS is one off fee but I do hope Chuckie has ensured that the new licence has been paid for I’d hate to see them fall foul of things. So many companies play music publically and the poor artists never get their share.
The Slade song aside there is another song which brings in a lot more royalties than the Christmas number, in fact it is the Worlds highest earner and I believe it has brought in close to £30m for the Hill Foundation and the Warner Corporation. It is a song that is sung every day in many parts of the World and every time it is played the till goes Ka-ching for the latter. It is a number which we could argue has a lot of relevance to what is going on at Ibrokes and should it be played later this year it will be interesting to see how they celebrate it. Will we have a major multi gun salute by HM Troops!, The song I’m referring to of course is Happy Birthday so will it be 1 candle on the cake or 141?
doontheslope says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 00:00
Interestingly enough, whilst wanting to make things happen, I also hold a belief that rivers need no pushing as they flow all by themselves and entertain similar thoughts to those you describe but where I think football results will play a large part.
It will probably be a combination of a number of factors.:)
Auldheid
I also believe the saying that there is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. Your contribution is simply a concrete expression of that, like someone choosing to sit on a forbidden seat on a bus, or refusing to follow orders at My Lai.
Its all one. They are deid, not because of liquidation or because Uefa says so or because company law says so or because some legal document says so. They are deid because it was time for them to go.
Death and tax, and all that.
doontheslope says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 00:48
Or in Rangers’ case, just death. They skipped the bit about tax.
For sure there is more that clubs could do at the margins to engage with and widen their support. The under 16 initiative from Partick Thistle for example (posted by BRTH) looks excellent to me. Clubs should always be open to the views of their fans, to see what can be done to improve the (apologies for this cliche expression) “match day experience.” I’ve not been to matches abroad but I’ve read that for example fans going to a match in Germany felt far more welcome. Why is that?
It was interesting to hear Dave Brailsford talk about how the Sky cycling team had achieved the success they had. He said it wasn’t any one big idea. It was looking at all the small things they could change that added together, incrementally, made the big difference. Is there a lesson there for football clubs?
But there is a danger of giving too much substance to a belief that there is a far wider support, currently latent, that will be switched on if the right buttons can just be pressed. I’m sure Stephen Thompson would love to know the magic buttons that would see even a third of the 28,000 sea of tangerine that turned up at Hampden Park in May 2010 converted into regular Tannadice season ticket holders. But many were families who would never normally go, but wanted to be part of that special occasion. Others were supporters from different clubs happy to take in a final with United supporting friends. A great game in a festival atmosphere in the sunshine and yet United’s season ticket sales in the following season were virtually unchanged. Dundee is a city of only 140,000 with two full time clubs whose combined season ticket holders is around 8000. Even allowing for the hinterlands of Angus, Perth and Kinross and Fife (which have other teams of course) that is already a fairly high level of support to attempt to build on.
In short, while developing and widening the relationship with supporters has to be a part of the strategy, it’s a long term strategy. In the shorter term the entertainment offered to the customers is critical. What do those customers actually want to see?
If the answer is that they would find more exciting a) games in a competition which is directionally more competitive than the current SPL and b) where a more comprehensive strategy of youth player development is a cornerstone of the League set up then wouldn’t that be a good starting point? How much in resources does a team need to run a decent youth development programme (with a beneficial spin off in terms of improving the relationship with the local area / fan engagement)? Say for the sake of argument that the minimum funding required is around the £300 – £500K per annum mark (I don’t know what the right figure are, purely illustrative). How do we ensure that as many clubs as possible get the level of income required to fund such programmes and that they don’t take the money away to spend on other areas?
The current league reconstruction debate is a top down approach. Lets make games exciting by ensuring that as many as possible have something at stake, promotion, relegation, play offs. But we also need to look at the kind of team a club can field that will get crowds excited. If the answer is more competitive games between teams with more young emerging Scottish talent developing their skills then how do you bring that about? Which brings me back to a more even distribution of income to provide more teams with the ability to develop Scottish youth and make games more competitive. Wouldn’t that be good for the whole of Scottish football?
All this grandstanding and stamping of feet in a tantrum by Green, Traynor and McCoist. The only words missing from their childish squeals is:
But you promised!!!!!
I really think they were you know – but the fans up and down the land were not for wearing it, well done ALL of you.
congratulations Mr Strachan…3rd place would be a result…good luck with the politics…
neepheid says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 22:26
Thanks for info on that, neepheid. Looks like it remains untested in any official/legal setting. To be honest, I hope that one day we will get a definitive ruling on this, and that it declares the club IS separate from the company, as my club is in financial turmoil, and I think all clubs face that possibility in the future, and it would be nice for us all to think OUR clubs are sacrosanct! Problem is, I just can’t see it, hard as I try I can find no argument that makes it any different from club=company. I just hope, one day, somebody proves me wrong 🙂
from @Propa_Gander via twitter
this week: #OperationHushHush
Please do not mention anything about the liquidation of a company that bought a company that sold the assets
#OperationHushHush
If a company liquidates without producing any accounts no-one knows what the business dealings of that company were..
#OperationHushHush
Nothing strange in that, unless it is 3 consecutive companies involved in the purchase of a debt stricken football club
#OperationHushHush
Wavetower who bought RFC(1872)plc, became RFC Group, assets were hived off to Sevco5088 – ALL 3 bring liquidated
#OperationHushHush
Who bought what, from whom, for how much and with what, remains unknown.
All traces of loans from Ticketus erased.
#OperationHushHush
All deals / funding between Minty, WhyteKnight & Chuckles remain undisclosed
Interestingt blog I hadnt seen before from last July, re sevco and scottish football authorities, transferring of history, etc
http://lawtop20.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/self-regulation-politics-of-football-in.html
paulsatim says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 10:31
3 1 Rate This
from @Propa_Gander via twitter
this week: #OperationHushHush
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Is it still possible for BDO to unravel this web?
Morning all
This blog has certainly raised its status over the last few weeks and will soon be up there and possibly be the role leader in the changes required to Scottish football ,it is still early days but the signs are definetly positive ,some questions still to be asked regarding who has been taking a wage and for what exactly over the years at all levels of officialdom ,fraudsters the vast majority of them ,and they should be outed , unfortunately the most damning failure is how they did not and seemingly cannot deal with the Sevco issue and the feelings that are growing daily are this fast track is to cover up these failures before something goes t?ts up in a very big way ,but as posted earlier ,sometimes you have to let some problem makers take themselves to self destruction as it is more dangerous to correct them and now is the time to let Sevco accelerate down this path and the rest of us focus on dealing with the chancers at the top of our game ,what was a mountain is now looking like a hill soon to become a slope and then a level playing field ,well done to all.
ekbhoy says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 22:52
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Although we’ve gone off the rails a bit now, for a good part of this season a realtively young Thistle team were playing some of the best, clever and adventurous football I’d seen a Jags team play in a long, long time. I’ve also seen a Livingstone team play just as clever, quick and adventurously against us, Losing out only because we were (then) sharper in the box. Some teams have been defensive but I’ve seen spells of very good play from other teams too in division one.
The ability is there: it’s just that in many seasons lack of ambition/fear factor/bad coaching or whatever seems to nullify it. For some reason this season several managers in the division are not afraid to let their teams play in a more attractive, attacking style.
ekbhoy says:
———————-
I should have added, my point was only to say there is still talent in this country and there are some coaches willing to try more progressive football. But of course there are still many problems and you’re right, we need a strategy to overcome them.
easyJambo says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 23:13
30 2 i
Rate This
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it’s not just football, eJ
Britain is a spivs paradise throughout all business and finance – and government too.
Eloquent and thought provoking as always BRTH.
Like Taysider though something doesn’t quite sit right with it in my humble opinion. To expect a root and branch restructure to recreate the 50’s is too much, or at least a step too far at present (bearing in mind the quality of the brains at the bridge) . To be fair you described it yourself as a mindset of utopia or words to that effect. To ignore it is, as you say, missing the point, but to put it at the forefront of the arguement could be equally damaging in the short term thus negating the potential in the long term.
I’m reminded of the yokel being asked for directions and replying that if he was going to there he wouldn’t be starting from where the stranded traveller actually was. Same situation here, only the stranded traveller has run out of petrol, eaten his last sandwich, missed his flight to the promised land and realised the youfs have pinched his tyres. The directions are no less relevant, they’ve just moved down the priorities a bit.
You mention the armchair fans. Why do you think they go to hamden once a generation? Is it the occasion? Certainly. Is it the dream? Of course. Is the dream diluted if you get there every other season? regrettably yes (in terms of number – see Aberdeen’s home gates for euro ties post 1983).
Fans (the attendees at least) want competition. They’re realistic enough to understand that Clyde won’t get there every season. They’re realistic enough to know that based purely on finances the previous OF should have. They’re experienced enough to know that football wise as opposed to financially that wasn’t always the case, and that’s why they go, again and again and again.
In a sporting sense they want, nay demand a level playing field. In a financial sense they want as big a help as possible sticking always to the mantra that it takes two teams to make a game.
As long as the authorities keep that as their focus and they won’t diverge too far from fans opinion.
nowoldandgrumpy says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 11:03
Is it still possible for BDO to unravel this web?
===========================
You would hope so!
doontheslope says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 00:00
God forbid that foreigners might make some sort of connection between Sevco and Belfast.
The 1000 people who gathered for peace, and who were given a voice at the top of last night’s international BBC News, were utterly devastating. All they did was very quietly state their case. They are sick and tired of all this cretinous nonsense.
======================================================================
I’m afraid that it is all to easy to make the connection between Rangers and Belfast rioting as every piece of TV footage of rioters I have seen shows plenty wearing Rangers scarves to hide their faces.
My heart goes out to those decent people who want a better life for their children and Northern Ireland and they give me hope that at the end of the day the greater good and the will of the people will prevail because that’s what Democracy is all about IMHO.
The violent demonstrators will pass – a few will change but most will become increasingly marginalised as their power base shrinks and loses all political relevance especilly with their own Unionist parties having abandoned them.
This of course leaves a void for the men of violence but Northern Ireland hs changed and they too will fail as they become ever more splintered in internecine strife and all the time their ‘community’ will decrease as ordinary people reach for peace and a life without fear.
There are many lessons we can take from Northern Ireland but perhaps the greatest is working towards reconciliation even when an aggressive violent maajority appear to have become the majority and currently in control.
We must reach beyond that to that silent majority that is still there and show them there is a way for them to be free from their internal oppressors and get back to playing and enjoying football for its own sake.
There are many non-Rangers people only too happy with the opportunity to continue to attack Rangers and see the club consigned to oblivion. All I ask is that those with good intent be clear in their own minds what they actually want out of the current Rangers situation in footballing terms and please try to see beyond the temporary smoke and mirrors of Green who will also depart the scene — hopefully sooner rather than later.
Dundee….they expected to be playing in the 1st division this year. That was what they had budgeted for and that was the quality of the squad they had
they were promoted to the SPL with days notice
They missed MONTHS of preparation time to rebuild their squad, they sold season tickets at 1st division prices
and yet they got on with it.
What would have happened to Sevco had Dundee refused promotion based on the fact they weren’t given a full seasons notice? Would the SFL have had no free space for a season?
So, lets stop entertaining sevconians greetin about rules being changed mid season please.
(oh, however, i am actually against league reconstruction this summer anyway….lets merge the SPL/SFL and then look at full reconstruction over the next year or 2)
ecobhoy
The Olympics was a fantastic coup for London and Britain. In the city in which I now live in Europe, a red London double decker bus was parked in the main square selling burgers and beer. A big screen was set up showing the action Live. In between events, Live bands entertained the crowds. Union Jacks were on display everywhere and, as I said earlier, clothing and all sorts of merchandise bore the UJ motif.
The feel good factor towards all things British was quite unprecedented.
To go from that image to seeing that flag connected with violence and thuggery cannot sit well with all those in London who worked so hard for, and put so much money into, the Games.
Unfortunately, the real two cheeks of the same @rse, seems to be Sevco (not Seb Coe) and rioters in Belfast. At least that is how it ‘appears’ to many people here. As you say, the flag connects them both whether that connection is a valid one or not.
Rangers just need to accept they are a new club that has links to the now defunct club. Their next trophy will be their first ever trophy and they are not getting fast tracked back to the top league.
We can then move on and turn our attention to the reorganisation of Scottish football.
Its simples really.
monsieurbunny says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 11:21
11
0
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easyJambo says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 23:13
30 2 i
Rate This
———————————————
it’s not just football, eJ
Britain is a spivs paradise throughout all business and finance – and government too.
…………………………………………………………………………..
Thats not just Britain, thats the new modern almost uncontrolled business world we are all living and suffering in, its all about making as much money as possible as quickly as possible whether or not the plan/idea/project is sustainable.
Make the money now and leave the problem for someone else to clear up later.
Interesting to see people drawing comparisons between Rangers and the Belfast rioters. Its bound to happen considering every night we see them on the news wearing Rangers scarves across their faces.
Its interesting they are always carefully referred to as “unionists” or “loyalists” despite the very flimsy politcal agenda they hide behind.
Would it be fair for us to call them “Rangers fans”. If not? Why not?
If I and some friends wore Aberdeen scarfs and threw bricks and petrol bombs at Strathclyde police would Scottish Newspapers describe us as “Aberdeen fans” when reporting these terrible acts? Or would they ignore the team colours and look for some flimsy “reason” given by the people perpetrating the criminal acts.
Just a thought..
talkSPORT polled 14 of the 24 clubs in the Blue Square Premier League to ask if they would support a move to introduce Rangers into the league. These are the results…
Barrow – MAYBE
Braintree Town – YES
Ebbsfleet – MAYBE
Forest Green – NO
Gateshead – NO
Hyde – MAYBE
Macclesfield – YES
Mansfield – YES
Newport – NO
Nuneaton – YES
Southport – YES
Stockport – YES
Tamworth – YES
Wrexham – YES
——
Of course, over at RM they’re already mentioning a boycott of Gateshead for saying no. 🙂
Greens` big mistake was not referring to a CVA as the end of 140yrs of history
It was visiting Belfast and creating a link between TRFC and the sort of people who gave RFC their sectarian history
He deliberately killed off the prospect of a non sectarian Newco playing a Ibrox
And like a true Spiv
He did it for money
More news from RM:
“Charles Green said at a meeting this weekend we have two testimonials against Premier League teams, one play in blue and the other play in red.”
——
What scrimping Premier League team would stoop to inviting a Scottish Third Division team for a testimonial?
spanishcelt says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 12:45
We have been witness to the flight from ethics and its unpleasant consequences.
Anyone pick this up?
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/369986
The bad news is this bit as it stops BT Vision stepping in.
If ESPN do decide to pull out then Sky would have first option to buy up their package, allowing them to monopolise the viewing market north of the border.
That threat could see Sky move to take up the option
BT Vision recently won the right to break into the English Premier League, and they could also be interested in getting their foot in the market north of the border.
That threat could see Sky move to take up the option.
The concern, however, is that if nobody decides to take up the package it could leave Scottish football in an even bigger mess, and our cash-strapped clubs would be faced with a shortfall of around £16m to make up.
If I were BT Vision and I wanted to capture the majority share customer base in Scotland I’d try and muscle in here. BT have the technical infrastructure well advanced. How about offering SPL TV as part of a broadband package? I’d switch.
And one more from RM:
“Don’t forget to tell any tims you know we have went from not existing to being worth 64 million in only 6 months … with growth like that the world is our oyster …”
——
This enlightened poster at least accepts that his club didn’t exist 6 months ago – and no one has disagreed with him. 🙂
angus1983 says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 13:09
0 0 Rate This
talkSPORT polled 14 of the 24 clubs in the Blue Square Premier League to ask if they would support a move to introduce Rangers into the league. These are the results…
—————————————
angus
what was the ACTUAL question asked? was it to accept Sevco or to accept Sevco & Celtic?
talkSpurt are giving chuckies agenda plenty of publicity, wouldn’t be surprised if they put a spin on the question of accepting “sevco” to suit chuckles needs
troyblain says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 12:29
“Rangers just need to accept ”
The stages of grief/loss.
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance.
they are about halfway. Give it another 18 months.
TSFM says:
Monday, January 14, 2013 at 18:34
Fan participation at board level is a very high minded and worthy principle, but there are also reasons why it may be impracticable.
======================================
I agree and with your reasons, but the fact it represents a challenge should not stop clubs looking at how they can provide dialogue with the support.
The first thing is to create a joint understanding of what dialogue requires on all sides of the table. In that respect I offer this from The Relationship Dialogue Decalogue
“Dialogue is a conversation on a common subject between two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose of which is for each participant to learn from the other so that s/he can change and grow. This very definition of dialogue embodies the first commandment of dialogue.
If we approach another party to either defeat them or to learn about them so as to deal more effectively with her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we face each other at all in confrontation–sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we are convinced that we alone have the absolute truth we are indulging in debate and not dialogue.
But dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each partner must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at any point we might find the partner’s position so persuasive that, if we would act with integrity, we would have to change, and change can be disturbing.”
I’ll perhaps post the whole lengthy item on another page for posterity.
Then there is the process of educating both football and supporters about the business of football in the full context of the Scottish game. I suggest that the level of football business awareness amongst fans has increased significantly over the past few years as a result of sharing non football business experience on blogs and comparing that with how football conducts itself. One good thing to come out of Rangers demise is that that the consequences of living beyond your means is no longer an empty threat made by prudent club boards.
There is such an abundance of expertise and brainpower out there clubs would be mad not to try and harness it for their common good.
There is also the (to me) mad idea that boards and supporters have different goals. It would seem to me that all clubs have one overriding goal and that is to thrive and be as successful as they possibly can in the circumstances they find themselves.
Everything done by the club and its support should be subservient to that ultimate goal. This is where dialogue comes in terms of defining evidence of success, risks, constraints, means of acheiving it and agreeing on action that takes all supporters in the same direction. There are tried business mechanisms for doing this that would allow supporters input to be listened to and actioned on or ignored according to its merit..
The problem is that the capacity to do this simply does not exist. As long as most of the income generated by football dissipates into player wages, there is never going to be enough left over to build that backshop capacity.
That is where BRTH’s philosophy comes into play, there is an abundance of auld heids throughout Scottish football that have the time and ability to help build that capacity, but focus will not go there until/unless clubs feel their basic survival needs have been met. However if a clubs super goal is to thrive it must create the capacity to take its supporters along on the journey.
Here is the full Dialogue Decalogue
http://scottishfootballmonitor.wordpress.com/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32133
Get a coffee ready first/ 🙂
angus1983 says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 13:09
5 0 Rate This
talkSPORT polled 14 of the 24 clubs in the Blue Square Premier League to ask if they would support a move to introduce Rangers into the league. These are the results…
Barrow – MAYBE
Braintree Town – YES
Ebbsfleet – MAYBE
Forest Green – NO
Gateshead – NO
Hyde – MAYBE
Macclesfield – YES
Mansfield – YES
Newport – NO
Nuneaton – YES
Southport – YES
Stockport – YES
Tamworth – YES
Wrexham – YES
——
I would like to to poll the Local Councils and Police forces of those Clubs.
Barrow – Agghhh!
Braintree – HELP!
Ebbsfleet – Please God no!…………
HMV set to go into administration………just what we need another newco claiming to have all sorts or records! 😉
To say Rangers and Sevco are the same is like saying clubbing someone around the back of their head and dumping their limp body overboard is the same as a “tragic boating accident
The idea that Charles Green is trying to leverage a place in the Blue Square league is totally ridiculous – the main reason being that he would be consigning himself to no European football at all for at least five years.
Financially that is not an option for a company like his (arguments about the club’s provenance to one side for a moment) which is struggling to establish itself and obtain a line of credit, and with a major club’s fixed costs with respect to the stadium.
I can see the momentum being maintained for a couple of years before reaching the top in Scotland – especially with the assistance of some clever spin and continued rabble rousing, but for another five years, traipsing around regularly on journeys in excess of 1000 miles round trip?
Not impossible, but highly unlikely.
Mr. Charles will surely accept any invite from the BLUE Square League with his open “big Yorkshire ‘ands”.
What a challenge, racing up the ladder to the EPL with ease whilst making friends throughout England. It would only take 12-20 years, say, and everyone is a winner.
Not to mention contesting quarter, semi and final CLs most seasons.
but for another five years, traipsing around regularly on journeys in excess of 1000 miles round trip?
——————————————————————————————————————–
We should all get behind such a wonderful ‘journey’, imagine the friends they will make along the way, breathing life into those forgotten hamlets of football with their particular brand of fun, joy and warmly inclusive collective effervescence!
Auldheid (@Auldheid) says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 13:25
Anyone pick this up?
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/369986
The bad news is this bit as it stops BT Vision stepping in.
If ESPN do decide to pull out then Sky would have first option to buy up their package, allowing them to monopolise the viewing market north of the border.
That threat could see Sky move to take up the option
BT Vision recently won the right to break into the English Premier League, and they could also be interested in getting their foot in the market north of the border.
That threat could see Sky move to take up the option.
The concern, however, is that if nobody decides to take up the package it could leave Scottish football in an even bigger mess, and our cash-strapped clubs would be faced with a shortfall of around £16m to make up.
If I were BT Vision and I wanted to capture the majority share customer base in Scotland I’d try and muscle in here. BT have the technical infrastructure well advanced. How about offering SPL TV as part of a broadband package? I’d switch
==================================
Nothing would give me greater pleasure than being able to tell SKY & ESPN to shove it. Their coverage is diabolical with poor commentators. As the head of BT Scotland is on the Celtic board I would think that they will be aware of all the options available to them. Go get them BT 😀
Have Rapid Vienna been paid for jelavic by rfcil/sevco???
Hi
Out of respect for 140 year old club thats demise started a year ago on Valentines day [2012] and is now dead ,I would like to propose a weeks silence and not to mention them in any form from the 14/2/2013 ,GRFC ,R.I.P.
Brenda asks:
According to the The Sunday Mail (!) – No, and Rapid will be engaging lawyers in the UK.
But wait, didn’t CG say he told the ECA all debts were paid to allow him associate membership?, never mind all the 5 way agreement fantasy football biils stuff.
Brenda,
It would appear not
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9798913/Rangers-on-course-for-title-but-still-need-recruits.html
Let us be quite clear, everything that emanates from Ibrox is of no real consequence – it should all be ignored unless it breaches the rules of the game, in which case the authorities should apply the rules to them. (I know).
The Rangers do not have a say in anything at the moment – they are there on sufferance under a trumped up membership arrangement – they have no vote, and as such everything they suggest should simply be ignored.
The real culprits here are not SEVCO, nor even Rangers ( deid) but the SFA, SPL and SKY: of these three, the SPL and SKY are commercial bodies and therefore they should have had no say in the arrangements to bring in the New club as Rangers (continuity club). This brings us to the SFA.
In essence the sole cause of the mess where we are now is the failure and absolute refusal of the SFA to implement its rulebook. It has brought itself into disrepute , the game into disrepute, and created a maniacal beast with no legal status to bite its hand even as it was being allowed into existence.
They are bust (FUBAR in fact).
We need to see it dissolved. A new body must replace it and this process should be supervised by UEFA to ensure that the body which emerges will actually do its job and implement the rules of the game whilst safeguarding its wellbeing.
The present debacle is not just CO nor SR being duplicitous and dishonest and despicable ( though both have been) but is a wider one involviing a whole organisation whose governance in all areas ( registration, refereeing, discipline, the national team, youth coaching, the furtherment of participation and the rest of its functions) has failed absolutely and utterly repeatedly over decades.
Its ethos has been about preserving the privileges of those who man committees and wallow in junkets reinforcing their own bloated sense of self importance, rather than actually producing a bluepring for the game which could put it at the centre of Scottish cultural life as a model for health, sport, welfare and society- in a country desperately needing support in all of these areas..
parnnoyed says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 15:33
Mr. Charles will surely accept any invite from the BLUE Square League with his open “big Yorkshire ‘ands”.
What a challenge, racing up the ladder to the EPL with ease whilst making friends throughout England. It would only take 12-20 years, say, and everyone is a winner.
Not to mention contesting quarter, semi and final CLs most seasons.
——————————————————————————————–
is the sevco franchise branching out even further
1 sevco team in european league
1 sevco team in sfl 3
1 sevco team in SPL2
1 sevco team in MLS
1 sevco team in irish league (…erm North that is)
1 sevco team in blue square league
can they have as many teams as they have holding companies…
does it matter as it’s only the holding companies that can go bust !?
Please please make it true that sevco 2012 are eloping to the blue square league ,that would be like 100 Christmas days rolled into one .
I would love to see them competing on a level playing field just once ,they would drift into oblivion without the peepil backing them and I don’t mean the fans .
Alas it will no doubt be more piffle from chuckles ,he could produce a Beatles album with the dreams he has at night .
will the SFA be able to throw a team out their league ever again. No matter what plight befalls a club, in their eyes the club continues with all history and any financial matter can be laid at the door of the company. Under SFA made up rules, no club will ever go out of existence again.
Ogilvie and the SFA – see how silly you look when you use the madeuperry rule book.
parnnoyed says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 15:33
Mr. Charles will surely accept any invite from the BLUE Square League with his open “big Yorkshire ‘ands”.
What a challenge, racing up the ladder to the EPL with ease whilst making friends throughout England. It would only take 12-20 years, say, and everyone is a winner.
Not to mention contesting quarter, semi and final CLs most seasons.
——————————————————————————————–
is the sevco franchise branching out even further
1 sevco team in european league
1 sevco team in sfl 3
1 sevco team in SPL2
1 sevco team in MLS
1 sevco team in irish league (…erm North that is)
1 sevco team in blue square league
can they have as many teams as they have holding companies…
does it matter as it’s only the holding companies that can go bust !?
—————————————————————————————–
it will be kind of reassuring that wherever you are there will be a sevco franchise team
the rangers playing in a town or city near you.
kind of like mcdonalds.
they’re all over the world and they’re ALL the same mcdonald’s.
happy mea…
i mean happy days
so Rangers are going to beam the Dundee united game back to Ibrox . I thought they would do this , probably the plan all along to make cash. Is allowed, boycotting away games and beaming it back live. Can all teams do this ?
troyblain
spot on
Also now that they have allowed the sevco 2012 fans to believe that the so called company can go bust but it does not effect the club .Now chuckles has to do their bidding or they will wield their new power .Of course chuckles won’t have to worry about that as he will be off before they realise they have been DUPED .
Iceman
You are right ..It is time that words like justice morals good ethics fair play etc were associated with Scotland and the leaders of our national sport..not the opposite as you portray….but major moves like this often need a major flashpoint or specific cause célèbre to force the ‘wall to collapse ‘ as it were…as we saw in the summer.
What could that be ?
Well what should definitely and finally tip them over the edge completely is if they run away from very strong robust treatment of oldco newco in the forthcoming LNS review. That should be their absolute last chance ..and it should not be difficult for them to stand tall.
Given oldco has publicly admitted ( after being outed by RTC and The BBC TV ) to a systematic but hidden effective financial doping scheme over at least 10 years and so far having been caught and admitting i understand to actually breaking the law of the land in wee tax case and latest admissions in FTT…then SFA have the real opportunity to ,and must , sort out newco big style.for once and for all….in ways discussed ad nauseam on this forum.
if they don’t the other clubs MUST immediately demand as you say at that point a completely new association eg FAS Football Association of SCOTLAND .. and reapply to UEFA….start again with a fresh slate from top to bottom ..supervised as you say by UEFA
( and oh btw MINUS newco …unless and only unless they accept the appropriate and fair penalties for the ten years ( or was it 20.? ) of misdemeanours ..given they want to just continue as before )
Without some earth shattering event.like this to galvanise a change …or a pleasant sudden surge of real strong leadership …( don’t laugh ) .I fear you are spot on but nothing will change….and many will just drift away for good .
It doesn’t feel right if RFC* are going to benefit from this boycott by charging for entry to the beamback. Shouldn’t the total gate be split? Will the SFA make any sort of announcement on this? At least if all the RFC* fans go to the beamback, it means we can support DUFC by attending Tannadice, but would RFC still get a share to donate to charity? SFA need to decide how they will view this.
the sfa as usual seem to have no proper rules in place – you should not be allowed a beamback unless both clubs agree, again, simples.
angus1983 says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 13:19
16 0 Rate This
More news from RM:
“Charles Green said at a meeting this weekend we have two testimonials against Premier League teams, one play in blue and the other play in red.”
——
What scrimping Premier League team would stoop to inviting a Scottish Third Division team for a testimonial?
——————–
Angus, what he didn’t say was its the Blue Square Premier League…. Hyde and Dartford 🙂
Where is the beam back story coming from? That is strictly forbidden is it not?
arabest1 says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 18:58(Edit)
Where is the beam back story coming from? That is strictly forbidden is it not?
__________________________________________________________________________
Nope. Not if they have the permission of (after the payment of a consideration to) the rights holders – Sky/ESPN/BBC?
IMG (not the pesky Trotskyists though!), who sell the rights for SFA matches will also want some cash if they confer the status of non-exclusive rights holder to CG.
Of course the SFA would have to explicitly agree to it as well, and it’s hard to see how they would allow that if DU were not stakeholders in the revenue share.
The words “careful” and “audit” spring to mind though 🙂
Re beamback
Sounds like this was the plan all along. All that garbage about a ticketing incident 3 or 4 years ago as some sort of justification.
They got drawn against an SPL club, away, and Cathal took the opportunity to fill Ibrox with happy fleg wavers.
Perhaps I’m eing cynical?
Whether it’s legally correct, or within the Rules, I can’t think of much more morally wrong behaviour than TRFC arranging a beam-back of a boycotted game to Greyskull. The pale would be but a faint line in the distance behind them.
What is the source of this story? No mention of it on RM currently, and they’d usually be the first to be crowing about such a reprehensible idea.
Having said that, if they got a big crowd at Ibrox for it and money had to be split, DUFC would probably make more cash than if they’d had to put up with the knuckle-draggers in person. Plus it would be Strathclyde Police’s problem rather than Tayside’s.
Were I PC Copper (and didn’t have the handshake) I’d tell them to beat it on account of the boycott nonsense. There’s nothing stopping them going to the game but their own “defiance” i.e. soor-faced greeting.
Up to Dundee Utd board to make SFA take responsibility for this absolute dogs dinner……….. The cheats are winning at every turn and ogilvie is still in position and green is still spouting garbage……… No change there then 🙁
Re: Blue Square.
Can the Holding Company buy a team in the conference?
TSFM says:
Tuesday, January 15, 2013 at 19:14
I don’t doubt you’re correct on this TSFM, but I’m staggered that the broadcasting of any match is not first subject to SFA, and participants agreement…….is this another ‘unprecedented’ situation that has caught everyone by surprise? or maybe a clause in the now ubiquitous 5 way agreement?
If they fill the ground for Beamback mountain, will this be added to the never ending record attendances?
And if any bears dare to make the journey to Dundee, will they have to adorn their scarves as per Belfast neds? I can’t see them waving to the cameras to all their pals watching on the big screen. Perhaps they could have a banner along the lines of “We’re in Dundee, it’s asbestos free”
Must stop thinking out loud