From the TSFM Manifesto š
A spectre is haunting Scottish Football ā the spectre of Sporting Integrity. All the powers of the old firms have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Billy and Dan, Blazer and Cassock, Record and Sun, Balance Sheet and P&L.
Where is the football fan in opposition to these that has not been decried as a “sporting integrity bampot” by his opponents in power?Two things result from this fact:
I. Sporting Integrity is already widely acknowledged to be itself a power for good.
II. It is high time that Lovers of Sport should openly, in the face of the whole world, publish their views, their aims, and meet this nursery tale of the Spectre of Sporting Integrity with a manifesto of fair play.
To this end, Lovers of Sport of various partisanship have assembled on TSFM and sketched their manifesto, to be published on tsfm.scot.
Those who love sport though are challenged not just by the taunts of the monosyllabic automatons in the MSM, but by the owners of our football clubs who have displayed an almost total disregard to our wish to have a fair competition played out in the spirit of friendly rivalry. In fact the clubs, who speak those fine words, are not nearly as outraged as we are by the damage done to the integrity of the sport in the past few years .
In fact the term Sporting Integrity has become, since the latter stages of the Rangers era, a term ofĀ abuse; a mocking soubriquet attached to those who want sport to be just that – sport.
Sporting integrity now lives in the same media pigeon-hole as words like Islam, left-wing, militant, Muslim – and a host of others; words which are threats to the established order now set up as in-jokes, in order to reduce the effectiveness of the idea.
In fact, a new terminology has evolved in the reporting of football by both club officials and The Succulent Lamb Chapel alike;
“.. Sporting Integrity but …”.
For example
“We all want sporting integrity, but finance is more important”
Says who exactly?
Stated in such a matter of fact way that the obvious question is headed off at the pass, it is sometimes difficult to re-frame the discussion – perhaps because crayon is so hard to erase?
This is the backdrop to The Scottish Football Monitor and the world in which we live. Often the levels of scrutiny employed by our contributors are far in excess of any scrutiny employed by the MSM. Indeed our ideas and theories are regularly plagiarised by those very same lazy journalists who lurk here, and cherry-pick material to suit their own agendas; regularly claiming exclusives for stories that TSFM and RTC before us had placed in the public domain weeks earlier.
This was going to lead into a discourse about the love of money versus the love of sport – of how the sacred cows of acquisitiveness, gate- retention and turnstile spinning is far more important to the heads of our football clubs (the Billys, Dans and Blazers of the intro) than maintaining the traditions of our sport.
However events of Friday 14th November have given me cause to leave that for another day. The biggest squirrel of all in this sorry saga has always been the sleight of hand employed instil a siege mentality in the Rangers fans. The press have time and again assisted people (with no love of football in general or Rangers in particular) to enrich themselves – legally or otherwise – and feed on the loyalty of Rangers fans.
A matter for Rangers fans may also be the identity of some of those who had their trust, butĀ who also assisted the Whytes and Greens by their public statements of support.
Our contention has been that rules have been bent twisted or broken to accommodate those people, the real enemies of the Rangers fans – and fans everywhere.
Through our collective research and group-analysis of events, we have also wondered out loud about the legality of many aspects of the operating style of some of the main playersĀ in the affair. That suspicion has been shared most notably by Mark Daly and Alex Thompson, but crucially now appears to be shared by Law Enforcement.
I confess I am fed up with the self-styled “bampot” epithet. For the avoidance of doubt, the “bampots” in this affair are those who have greater resources than us, and access to the truth, but who have lacked either the will orĀ theĀ courage or the imagination to follow it through.
We are anything but bampots. Rather, weĀ have demonstrated that the wisdom of the crowd is more effective by far than any remnants of wisdom in the press.
I have no doubt that the police investigation into this matter is proceeding in spite of great opposition in the MSM and the Scottish Football Authorities – all of whom conspired to expose Rangers to the custodianship of those for whom football is a foreign language.
I have no doubt that the constant exposition of wrong-doing on this blog, in particular the questions we have constantly raised, and anomalies we have pointed out, has assisted and enabled the law enforcement agencies in this process.
If we are to be consistent in this, our enabling of the authorities, we MUST show restraint at all times as this process is followed through. People who are charged with a crime deserve to be given a fair trial in the absence of rumour or innuendo. We must also, if we are to continue as the spectre which haunts the avaricious – and the real bampots – be seen to be better than they, and give them no cause to accuse us of irresponsibility.
This affair has now evolved way beyond one club gaining unfair advantage over others. For all the understandable Schadenfreude of many among us, the real enemy is not Rangers, it is about those who enabled and continue to enable the farce at Ibrox.
This is now about systematic cheating at the heart of the Scottish game (in the name of cash and in spite of lip service to sporting integrity), and how the greed of a bunch of ethically challenged officials allowed another group of ethically challenged businessmenĀ free rein to enrich themselves at the expense of the fans.
Whether laws were broken or not, theĀ players at Rangers have come and gone and are variables, but the malignant constant at the SFA and SPFL are still there. Last night, even after the news that four men had been arrested in connection with the takeover at Ibrox in 2011, they were gathered together at Celtic Park with their Irish counterparts, tucking into succulent lamb (perhaps) and fine wines, doing someĀ back slapping, makingĀ jokes about the vulgarities of their fans, bragging about the ST money they have banked.
The revolution won’t be over until they are gone, and if they remain, it is Scottish Football that will be over.
Auldheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:29 pm
In SFA terms shortly could mean sometime before the rocks melt in the sun
Still, its introduction would be a small step towards redemption, enforcing it without fear or favour still a ways off methinks
thirdmanrunning says:
November 21, 2014 at 11:13
Indeed. There is no other way and if what Peter Lawwell has said at the Celtic AGM today is true re FFP domestically, then we will avoid past mistakes if it is properly policed.
The SFA’s record on that is not good.
If you think there’s been verbal contortions and logic shenanigans around what constitutes a club and company around the oldco/newco debacle wait until someone (?) falls foul of any FFP regs the SFA bring in! Remember we are in an environment where all that money paid out, tax free, on top of contract by oldco gave “no competitive advantage”.
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:34 pm
0
0
Rate This
Auldheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:29 pm
In SFA terms shortly could mean sometime before the rocks melt in the sun
Still, its introduction would be a small step towards redemption, enforcing it without fear or favour still a ways off methinks
==============
Perhaps but clubs that do comply will be watching clubs that do not like hawks.
If there are no rules there is no means of complaint so introducing them changes the dynamics.
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 11:48 am
Michael Kelly is a rocket, who almost killed Celtic. Football, Glasgow, The Labour Party, Politics, Scotland all deserve so much better than Michael bloody Kelly.
Scapaflowā¦I fear you are being too kindā¦ā¦Kelly is a fecking idiot as well as a bitter attention seeking fantasistā¦.. more than happy to be the SMSMās rent a gob anytime someone is required to pop up and stick the boot into Celticā¦.bitter, impotent old man living in the past ā¦..
Of courseā¦just my opinionā¦ā¦
peterjung says:
November 21, 2014 at 1:03 pm
Auldheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:42 pm
2 0 Rate This
——–
Doesn’t every SFA rule come with a circuit breaker and manual over-ride option labelled ‘discretion’?
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:58 pm
0 1 Rate This
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
———
Be funny if he’d followed up with, ‘I believe this is money well spent to be rid of them.’
š
Please tell me someone’s tweeted him back, Good, because that’s what it was costing us to keep them there!
Or to put it another way, Celtic could make an extra Ā£10m profit from getting Rangers back where they think they belong, pay 40% tax on it as everybody else feels the need to do, and pass the remaining Ā£6m directly to Rangers to put towards their Ā£10m annual shortfall and lo, they’re still Ā£4m short when they go bust again.
And that’s pretty much a summary of the last 8 years!
“Phil MacGiollaBhain ā@Pmacgiollabhain 1 min1 minute ago
Lawwell now stating that if Celtic had the same media revenues as EPL then the Parkhead club would be up there with Man United”
Good Afternoon
I used to have some measure of respect for WS; Not now.
In the daily rag today he says,
āI was fortunate enough to be given great support by the likes of David Murray with the signings I was allowed to make.ā
What he left out of the statement was , āBecause he was able, on the never, never ever to be paid back, to rip the Bank and the taxpayers of the guts of a billion pounds and divert plenty of that to āRangersā to buy players we couldnāt afford and to pay wages we couldnāt afford and to set up tax evading systems. If only the old days could come back Ally could wipe the floor with the diddy teamsā
The hubris is staggering.
This sense of entitlement to get money and buy players you cannot afford to cheat the rest of football is where the problem lies. We would all have welcomed a chastened version of Rangers living within their means but this type of comment indicates that we will never see this.
The pollution that has been occasioned to the game of football in Scotland seems to be here to stay as manifested by the behaviour of the entitled ones in George Square the day after the referendum.
Scottish football is not facing financial meltdown, a particular version of the team playing out of Ibrox is and we must be alert and block any attempt to shoehorn a third version of the cheaters into the league.
They together with the SFA are Scotlandās shame football and society would be better off without them.
Finally I cannot leave without commenting on PL and the fact that the absence of Rangers costs Celtic Ā£10Million.
Sorry PL, and no doubt some economist will put this better than I can,but you have not lost Ā£10. You have not the opportunity to earn Ā£10M, if that is the net figure, it is in my opinion a price worth paying.
Take of the costs which would be associated with having the opportunity to earn this and I would doubt if it would realise a fraction of that figure.
I have a lot of respect for PL and admire the way the club is run but he is sadly out of touch with the real fans. Look at other ways of raising money. Try and encourage decent football fans who can attend games without being intimidated.
In life money is not everything, peace, particularly in today’s crazy world is a valuable commodity and whatever it costs is a price worth paying.
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
Maybe not being a Celtic supporter helps but my thought is really? Followed swiftly by so what? I couldn’t care less frankly!
I’d bet a competitive league would bring back some of those missing millions. REGARDLESS of what clubs are providing that competition. And the healthy moves by several clubs recently would suggest that isn’t just a pipe dream.
I’d bet someone worthwhile running the SPFL and get some form of sponsorship for the league would bring back some of this millions.
I’d bet Scottish football becoming a shining beacon of fair play, of youth development and giving a s**t as to what their “customers” think would also bring back some of those millions. I hate that word “customers” but alas that is clearly how they see us, but even Ratners made more effort to sell their product to the public!
I’d bet not having a national press primed to tells lies, fabricate half-truths and perpetuate myths long dispelled and promote the needs of conmen, thieves and self-serving moneygrabbers would bring back some of the missing millions.
I’d bet having the SFA sort out broadcast rights such that those without Sky or unable to head to pubs, or to pay the exorbitant fees to watch Scotland play live would also impact on the missing millions for years to come.
I’d bet you are sick of me typing I’d bet, but I’ll bet you can think of many other bets to add to the list, maybe we could stick it on an accumulator and buy ourselves our own football club.. anyone know any for sale?
From Gerry Braiden of the Herald on State Aid-
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/inside-track-council-is-dealing-with-global-brands.25906834
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 1:27 pm
āPhil MacGiollaBhain ā@Pmacgiollabhain 1 min1 minute ago
Lawwell now stating that if Celtic had the same media revenues as EPL then the Parkhead club would be up there with Man Unitedā
———————
Yep, and if my auntie had balls…
scapaflow says:
āPhil MacGiollaBhain ā@Pmacgiollabhain 1 min1 minute ago
Lawwell now stating that if Celtic had the same media revenues as EPL then the Parkhead club would be up there with Man Unitedā
========================================
In breaking news am told if ma auntie had ba’s she’d be ma uncle…
Peter Lawwell in the next few hours could announce
Cetic are signing Ched Evans
Malky McKay will replace Deila
Dave Whelan is going to become the honorary president of Celtic FC
None of the above would take the Ā£10m loss of no Rangers headline from tomorrows papers.
Mt Lawwell’s comments on FPP, and being up there with Manchester United, make interesting, & I’m sure unintended, bookends
Having said that, Living wage, Man Utd and Rangers yielding (no laughing) Ā£10m.
My Celtic AGM bingo is going blumin’ well.
How much debt does Man Utd have? How much does Celtic have?
Which team deserves most respect? In know my thoughts.
Another farce made possible by the ludicrous football “authorities”. The strange thing is, it has exploded in chairmans faces at several clubs in Scotland – yet despite the evidence nobody seems to think such a thing is possible in England or Spain orā¦.
They might get a rude awakening yet, and it will only take a few biggish clubs to go down and the whole Champions League etc will collapse like a pack of cards.
As a non Celtic fan I’d have liked to hear Mr Lawwell talk a bit about Auldheid’s initiative about how one particular european licence was granted a few years ago when just maybe it shouldn’t have been.
Mr Lawwell is not just a Celtic employee he has SFA responsibility too.
And this particular licence damaged not just Celtic but other SFA member clubs who were next in line.
If the absence of I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-Rangers leads to Celtic not making Ā£10m – how come that I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-Rangers entity costs the taxpayer Ā£loads?
Is this a thinly disguised request by Peter Lawwell for some direct taxpayer funding? š State-aiders start your keyboards now…
oh and another thing – back to Peter Lawwell. You can’t complain about one club not living within it’s means and then turn round and start complaining that you have lost money because of it! Peter, your “good-old-days” were based upon lies, alleged (!) fraud, tax evasion etc etc. If he really misses that, then god help us all.
What he should be doing is adjusting his club to live within it’s means, just like every other club has had to do. Oh and guess what, when you do that, you will be paying players less, we will have a more competitive league, leading to more punters returning to watch live games, boosting your intake and lo and behold you start to regain some of that missing millions. Help get some league sponsorship in from Wee Shugs Sanitary Shack or whoever for the league too while you are at it.
It’s up to you, wait until the mighty Blues return to fill your stadium – frankly that could be a long way off – and lose 10 million blue pounds every year. Or you could decide that investing in Scottish football, that’s ALL of Scottish football is the way ahead.
Oh and stop harping on about what happens down south, its irrelevant, and it’s really not a business model to lust after!
Sorry, that 10m comment is just so insulting to all fair minded fans out there, he has raised my red dander.
tayred says:
November 21, 2014 at 1:49 pm
How much debt does Man Utd have? How much does Celtic have?
Which team deserves most respect? In know my thoughts.
Another farce made possible by the ludicrous football āauthoritiesā. The strange thing is, it has exploded in chairmans faces at several clubs in Scotland ā yet despite the evidence nobody seems to think such a thing is possible in England or Spain orā¦.
They might get a rude awakening yet, and it will only take a few biggish clubs to go down and the whole Champions League etc will collapse like a pack of cards.
———————–
United currently owe Ā£362 million. The reason why they owe that much is nothing to do with profligate management or spending money they haven’t earned and has everything to do with the way in which the Glazers funded their purchase of the club. Prior to the takeover, United, as a plc, had cash reserves and consistently made a profit. They were financially well disciplined and well run. That, by and large, continues to be the case, but the Glazers borrowed massively to fund their purchase of the shares in the plc and then loaded that debt and its associated costs onto the company after the takeover. Anyone with even a passing interest in United’s finances should take a look at Andy Green’s blog:
http://andersred.blogspot.co.uk/
When looking up the Manchester United debt figure above, I noted that the club claims to currently have 87 million ‘followers’ on various social media platforms.
Only another 413 million to go.
neepheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 1:38 pm
From Gerry Braiden of the Herald on State Aid –
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/columnists/inside-track-council-is-dealing-with-global-brands.25906834
=====================================================
I’m not terribly sure what all that means. But I’m also not sure that the Herald reporter has grasped what the State Aid issue is all about either.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in State Aid being used and granted as long as it is correctly notified by a member country to the EC and the application meets all the EC rules and regulations and reasons for granting State Aid.
In the Celtic land purchases there was no application for State Aid assistance made to the EC.
At this point the State Aid Eejits will be wetting themselves thinking I’ve given them the grounds for a fresh complaint š
However, the reason that no State Aid assistance requests were submitted was simply because Celtic bought the land using its own money.
And for the dim-witted – that includes from loan sources. You know like when Uncle Mike lends money to a lower league club.
But when public land is sold the ‘market value’ price for it must be achieved by the selling public body. ‘Market Value’ under EC Regulations is either determined by the price achieved at a public auction or calculated by an appropriately qualified independent valuer/surveyor as the figure which would be achieved at a public auction between a willing seller and buyer.
If public land is sold below the ‘market value’ then the difference between that value and the price paid is regarded as illegal State Aid under EC Regulations because it gives a competitive advantage to the buyer over competitors in their line of business or land developers.
The Celtic public land purchases were all correctly and independently valued and met the EC’s ‘market value’ test. Celtic therefore neither received legal nor illegal State Aid in its land purchases from public bodies.
And the fantasists can huff and puff all day long and flog the Bears to death in a pointless quest. But they’ll get nowhere because EC Regulations have been observed to the letter. It’s the Celtic Way š
Given the recent panic stricken overload from a coordinated welter of sources about the “need” for a Rangers in the top division, it is quite clear that The Scottish Football Body Politic has a fundamentally unhealthy dependency upon Rangers , whatever Rangers acrtually is at present.
Perhaps the best anaogy for this relationship is that of a heroin addict to smack. All of those around the addict understand the profound damage that has been caused, and is being caused by the on-going addiction.
This particular addict’s supply dried up in the Summer of 2012. Since then the addict has been forced to settle for a substitute drug. As it happens the substitute drug has allowed a degree of control and some kind of functioning to the addict.
Now, however, it seems as though the supply of substitute is coming to an end, and the addict is thrashing around in blind panic for a return to the original drug.
Logically the only cure is cold turkey. This may well cause pain and some difficult readjustment, but is in the long term the only hope for renewed health.
I fear however that this addict is too far gone, and too divorced from reality, to act in his own best interests – and will seek to find a Rangers, anything vaguely Rangers-like or that can somehow simulate the Rangers fix to allow the addiction to be assuaged, at least partially. This addict, I fear, is condemned to recurrent sickness,permanent delusion, chronic morbidity and an eventual early death.
There is only one hope for Scottish Football – to apply the rules freely and fairly – and, at present, it is doing everything in its power to shy as far away as is humanly possible from that hope.
Auldheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:29 pm
29 0 Rate This
From Celtic AGM
Celtic Underground ā@celticrumours Ā· 55s56 seconds ago
āFinancial Fair Play ā 1st sanctions happened & we benefited. SFA will shortly introduce FFP hereā PL
And about fair effin time.
I think I can retire now š
==============================
Can anyone elaborate on “1st sanctions happened and we benefited” ??
Listeners of a nervous disposition might want to give SSB a miss tonight
“Superscoreboard ā@ClydeSSB 3 mins3 minutes ago
Derek Johnstone and Hugh Keevins with Jim tonight @ClydeSSB. Hear too from Celtic’s Peter Lawwell and former Rangers star Charlie Miller.”
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:58 pm
1 14 Rate This
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
=================================
Hard to believe unless this is based on an assumption that dwindling attendances at Celtic Park are directly related to a lack of Rangerness in the SPFL. Rather than say a general unhappiness with Scottish Football’s medieval attitudes?
I’m not a Celtic fan so its probably none of my business but I think some break down of how that figure is arrived at and on what assumptions it is based is really needed for anyone to take it seriously.
IIRC, it was only 2 short years ago when Lawwell was trumpeting in the media that Celtic had a ‘sustainable model’ which was NOT dependent on a Rangers.
Now he is apparently complaining that in the absence of a ‘Rangers’ it’s costing Celtic GBP 10M.
To put into context: last year’s turnover for Celtic was GBP 76M – so is he really saying that a Rangers ‘generates’ 12% of his business turnover ?
Really ?!
Looks like the ducks are indeed getting lined up in a row for the next ‘Rangers’ scandal… šæ
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 1:27 pm
āPhil MacGiollaBhain ā@Pmacgiollabhain 1 min1 minute ago
Lawwell now stating that if Celtic had the same media revenues as EPL then the Parkhead club would be up there with Man Unitedā
=======================
This is always a bit tiresome to hear for us non Celtic (or non Rangers fans).
Lets keep it in perspective, if Dundee Utd had EPL level media revenues they would be up there with Everton.
If Aberdeen had EPL media revenues they would be up there with Spurs.
Its really all relative and indicative only of some teams having more fans than others. And I know some people will choke on their tea here but some teams have more fans because they have achieved more success and that was due to having more money and well surely anyone can see the circular argument this “if we had EPL money” nonsense opens up.
StevieBC says:
November 21, 2014 at 3:30 pm
Not sure what’s worse, that it is all so boringly predictable,
or,
that these patronising bar-stewards think we button up the back šæ
Matty Roth says:
November 21, 2014 at 3:19 pm
5 0 Rate This
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:58 pm
1 14 Rate This
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
=================================
Hard to believe unless this is based on an assumption that dwindling attendances at Celtic Park are directly related to a lack of Rangerness in the SPFL. Rather than say a general unhappiness with Scottish Footballās medieval attitudes?
Iām not a Celtic fan so its probably none of my business but I think some break down of how that figure is arrived at and on what assumptions it is based is really needed for anyone to take it seriously.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
It is this attitude displayed by Lawwell – always pandering to the blue pound.
Lawwell and therefore Celtic, are/were in on the original attempt to not only quickly paper over what exactly Liquidation should mean (a Newco = a New Club)
and they were up to their arm-pits in the attempt to allow
SevcoScotland/The Rangers Football Club ltd to start life in the SPL, then were in on the bullying of the SFL league 1 clubs to try to force them to accept Charles Green’s club !!!
And Celtic did not do enough about the fact that Craig Whyte’s Club, should never have been allowed by the SFA to get the Uefa CL spot – due to outstanding Taxes (the DoS)
That is why my Peter Lawwell or Celtic will never see any of my money, ever again!!
Matty Roth says:
November 21, 2014 at 3:13 pm
Rate This
Auldheid says:
November 21, 2014 at 12:29
Can anyone elaborate on ā1st sanctions happened and we benefitedā ??
Cheers Matty,
I meant to ask that earlier, and forgot (although I wondered if the cloaked comment was to do with the resolution 12 politik)
So Peter, How do you come to Ā£10m? Do you realise that it was costing us all (including CFC) Ā£10m to create that circular argument and finally, “yes there were sanctions š ” just aint going to cut it.
There you go Derek Hugh and Jim, hows that for your agenda for tonight (and no skimping on the first two eh!)
Ours seems so often a passive role in this story. We comment here but without knowing what influence for the better our comments may have.
We await with weary cynicism the next spin on the theme of how our game is suffering because one team is not in the top flight. Is there anything more positive we can do? Is it worth inviting every supporter and every Board member of EVERY club in Scotland to confirm their support for a relatively simple statement? A possible text is below but I would be happy to sign up to an improved version with a similar sentiment.
I would just emphasise that the aim is that every fan of EVERY club should feel able to support the statement. It is not anti any particular club. It is pro a fundamental principle to protect Scottish football.
——-
Jock Stein once said
āFootball is nothing without fans.ā
It is a simple truth that goes to the heart of our game. He could have observed another truth as well:
Football is nothing without the fair application of rules without fear or favour.
This should be a statement of the obvious. It is true on the park. It is essential to a sporting contest that the rules are applied in a fair and even handed manner by the referee. It is equally true off the park. Fundamental to the well being of the game we love is the application of the rules in a fair and transparent manner. A perception that all clubs were equal but some more equal than others would be extremely damaging to the credibility of our sport.
Contrary to the impression some would like to create, Scottish club football is in a far healthier financial position now than in recent years. To enable the game to build on this healthy recovery, it is critical that the confidence of Scottish football customers in the integrity of the sport is preserved and encouraged. All else is secondary.
We urge the SFA and SPFL to affirm their commitment to the transparent, fair application of the rules equally to every club, without fear or favour.
Stevie BC
Ah, so its turnover, not profit, so therefore not costing CFC Ā£10m at all then.
Now apply the same argument to Backwoods Rovers. Extra revenue from a visit on the glorious journey = x. Policing and steward costs = 2x.
Now if the answer is “ah but tv and sponsorship makes up the extra ‘x'” my answer is “but that requires a return to the situation as was.” If that’s what you want then good luck with that. But sell it for what it is, and I repeat good luck with marketing that little memory wiping fantasy, and stop treating us like the mugs you clearly think we are!
EDIT, to be clear “You” is PL, not Stevie BC!
SECOND EDIT: and for the absence of doubt, RFCold had the option of continuing PL’s fantasy above but didn’t, and RFCnew courtesy of a generous IPO had the option likewise, and to date, haven’t!
Smugas says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:16 pm
Stevie BC
Ah, so its turnover, not profit, so therefore not costing CFC Ā£10m at all then…
===================================
Well that’s my assumption.
Profit before tax on that GBP 76M turnover was GBP 11M, [which is still decent].
So, ‘missing’ an extra GBP 10M profit doesn’t ‘compute’… š
And PL’s claim is just b*llox anyway.
http://www.celticfc.net/news/6656
When Parkhead was filled to the rafters 30 years ago as Ferguson’s Aberdeen and then Dundee Utd came to town ..with RFC as no hopers…didn’t hear CFC screaming they needed Rangers then ..Football fans wanted top competition..they got it!
If to JLs point above PL and CFC really have been complicit in all this crap they haven’t just betrayed their own fans they have sold the lot of us down the river .
Two clubs operating at financial levels way above the rest never gets a competitive league as we see now in all the wee countries in Europe .chasing the CL dream …the article a month or so ago about Dynamo Zagreb and the uncompetitiveness in the Croatian league was Scotland writ large!
It’s bad enough having a big club with loadsa money dominating everything ..and you can just about live with it if they operate within the law with integrity etcetc…but if behind the scenes they are trying to help the corrupt polis get their criminal big mate bailed oot the jail…because they are short of a few bob with him inside they are as bad if not worse…
Please tell me this isn’t what has been going on …because if it has the game really is a bogey ……
I now have this vision of CO laughing his head off at the wee keyboard jihadists over on SFM ….as he now and always did have ..all the air cover he needs .
Chris McLaughlin ā@BBCchrismclaug 2 mins2 minutes ago
Peter Lawwell reiterates the point that no #Rangers in top league costs them around Ā£10m a year. #Celtic
===============================================
When PL made that statement at the issue of Annual Report I think it was I found it very hard to believe that overall the loss of Rangers in the top League could be costing us that much.
I would like to see a breakdown for interest’s sake but it’s easy to see how the figure could be reached with say 40K STs sold with Ā£100 discount which I’m sure applies across the board. That comes to Ā£4 million loss.
But how much of the falling total of STs and walk-up sales in the last few years is solely down to the absence of Rangers. I certainly don’t have any kind of marketing info that allows me to work that out.
Then there’s the loss in catering and kit sales – it all adds up as well as the losses for the League games against Rangers.
I hate to say it but increasingly this season I’m coming across more and more Celtic fans who feel there is a lack of excitement through the absence of Rangers.
I personally wouldn’t care less if we never ever played them again but I have my reaons. But, more importantly, I don’t have the responsibility for ensuring that Celtic doesn’t run at a loss – PL does.
Again I think people are still suffering badly from the financial climate and football – especially with kids – is an expensive day out. So I think people tend to pick the games they attend quite carefully and they can always fill-in with wall to wall telly at the pub or at home which is quite a factor these days.
I think the drop in revenue is due to various factors and certainly not simply down to Rangers but whatever I have no reason to doubt that we are down the Ā£10 million PL claims and that’s quite a financial hole to fill.
As to supporters staying away because of the utter contempt that they are held in by Football Authorities I honestly think that amounts to almost zilch no matter what some people would like to believe. It has always been this way and in my experience it really isn’t a big factor in causing actual supporters to walk away from their club.
I’d also add if I may Eco that a marketing initiative based at CFC (and indeed other club) supporters taking umbridge at an apparent if very visible injustice like an unscheduled reconstruction, in a call to those supporters to return to somehow right that injustice on-the-park is a very dangerous ploy indeed. One that could backfire pretty spectacularly in fact.
Regarding Celtic benefitting from FFP ruling pretty sure it was to do with this, http://www.football365.com/manchester-city/9462570/Champions-League-UEFA-share-Manchester-City-s-huge-FFP-fine-among-other-elite-clubs
Eco:
Is it lack of Rangers, or just lack of competition? I’m not sure return of Rangers will provide much in the way of competition for a few years. Do you believe those of which you speak would be satisfied at simply handing out a spanking to the Blue side of Glasgow 4 times a season?
That would be a very sad state of affairs if that was the case.
A name from the past of the grand old days of yore,
Jim Waterson ā@jimwaterson
Porn baron former owner of Loaded who was involved in Rangers FC done for Ā£134m pensions “liberation” scheme http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/tpr-shuts-down-134m-pension-liberation-schemes/a785217?ref=new-model-adviser-todays-news-list ā¦
finchleyflyer says:
November 21, 2014 at 9:40 am
74
1
Rate This
Re Kellyās interview this morning, and his comment about Scottish football in financial meltdown without Sevco in the top league ā does this idiot not read any newspapers or listen to TV or radio? It seems that Scottish football has less debt than at any time in the last 25 years, with clubs doing their utmost to live within their means. Well, apart from one notable example, obviously.
Why are such patently untrue statements not challenged? Why donāt journos have the bollocks to ask a simple questions and expose these sort of idiots idiots for the ignorant, badly-informed, reactionary morons they are?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Because Kelly is seeing it through the lens of CFC.
CFC & Rangers (RIP) are/were “Scottish football”.That’s the way it’s been in the 48 years I’ve been going to/watching football. That’s the way it will always be. So, if Celtic are in trouble ergo Scottish football is in trouble. Because no other club matters to people like him. I’m no longer offended by this perspective or the refusal of Glasgow churnalists to take people like Kelly to task for this. That’s the way it is for fans of non OF clubs.
Are Celtic season ticket sales down because a Rangers are missed or is it because the League has become a procession? How long before Celtic win the League this year?
There is potential for a natural correction. Celtic attendances decline due to a lack of competition. Result less income for Celtic, less of a gap to other teams, League gets more competitive, attendances at Celtic Park start to rise again.
Competition is healthy. A need for one particular team to be the provider of that competition, however flawed the model by which they were financed to provide that competition in the past, is not.
Some quote this. Does Peter have a chateau in France as well?
Sorry folks, but any talk of a lack of competition in the SPFL premiership needs the wee brown jobby emoticon
http://spfl.co.uk/premiership/table/
get a grip
Edit
Cheapest season ticket Real Madrid Ā£176, Celtic Ā£387
Dear oh dear – it would appear that PL is to be cast as this season’s panto villain – deflection of the first order!
As chief executive of Celtic his role is to maximise profit – pure and simple. Obviously that has to be achieved within the rule of the various footballing authorities but also all of the other legal requirements that apply to running a club the size of Celtic.
He and other Celtic officials/officers are also involved in the governance of the game but all the ills of the game can’t be laid at Celtic’s door. Some can but every other club and their representatives have a responsibility as well.
As to the Ā£10 million – perhaps I’ve been sleeping but I always assumed it was turnover.
paulsatim says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:48 pm
2 0 Rate This
A name from the past of the grand old days of yore,
Jim Waterson ā@jimwaterson
Porn baron former owner of Loaded who was involved in Rangers FC done for Ā£134m pensions āliberationā scheme http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/tpr-shuts-down-134m-pension-liberation-schemes/a785217?ref=new-model-adviser-todays-news-list ā¦
———-
Reads like some kind of hybrid EBT-type thingmyjig. Pity, would’ve been perfect for the club that needs to spend, spend, spend. ‘For every Ā£5 the others pay in tax, we’ll con the taxman out of Ā£10!’.
ecobhoy says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:07 pm
PL does do well by Celtic, by and large.
If folk are having fun with his quotes, well he made the statements
tayred says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:48 pm
Eco:
Is it lack of Rangers, or just lack of competition? Iām not sure return of Rangers will provide much in the way of competition for a few years. Do you believe those of which you speak would be satisfied at simply handing out a spanking to the Blue side of Glasgow 4 times a season?
That would be a very sad state of affairs if that was the case.
===================================================
I genuinely don’t know the answer to whether it’s the absence of Rangers or competition. Although when RD arrived and hadn’t found his feet it appeared the competition Celtic faced wasn’t acceptable to some fans š
Some Celtic fans just want Rangers to be thrashed and others of the more cerebral bent would like to see it done with footballing flair. We are a long way from ridding ourselves as a support IMO from our own baggage wrt Rangers.
They aren’t simply another club to be beaten they are THE club to be beaten.
I discarded it 20 years ago and haven’t attended an Old Firm Game since and I don’t miss it but I think I am very much an exception. But it’s very difficult to generalise about a football support and the Celtic support has been changing quite radically in recent years – lots more kids and lots more females.
Plenty of old codgers like myself +60 left but also still tons of guys from late teens up to their 50s so the spread looks healthy. It will be interesting to hear how things go at February’s cup game which should give a better picture of where we are as a support in terms of enlightenment.
” We are a long way from ridding ourselves as a support IMO from our own baggage wrt Rangers.”
Well said
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:56 pm
Sorry folks, but any talk of a lack of competition in the SPFL premiership needs the wee brown jobby emoticon
http://spfl.co.uk/premiership/table/
get a grip
Edit Cheapest season ticket Real Madrid Ā£176, Celtic Ā£387
==============================================================
Well that isn’t the cheapest Celtic ST – not by a long chalk.
However I think it might be worth waiting to see the EC pronouncement – supposedly before the end of the year – on the illegal State Aid allegations against Real Madrid.
It will be very interesting because and I can’t remember off the top of my head whether it’s the Spanish Government or the Madrid area government who have already publicy stated that the EC can stick their decision where the sun don’t shine if it’s unfavourable to Madrid.
From what I’ve seen so far I can’t see it being anything else but it is Real Madrid after all.
ecobhoy says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:37 pm
fair dos I copied the wrong fig, (just checked), but the SPFL is among the most expensive leagues in Europe for fans to buy tickets
valentinesclown says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:35 pm
=======================
Aberdeen’s AGM is always covered, journalists there and all that. Never, ever made it on to a national paper and certainly not TV (or this forum IIRC). Not newsworthy I’m afraid. PL is right in a way; for him, the MSM and the rest of the fitba establishment the story is always Celtic/Rangers, nothing else.
paulsatim says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:48 pm
A name from the past of the grand old days of yore,
Jim Waterson ā@jimwaterson
Porn baron former owner of Loaded who was involved in Rangers FC done for Ā£134m pensions āliberationā scheme http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/tpr-shuts-down-134m-pension-liberation-schemes/a785217?ref=new-model-adviser-todays-news-list
=======================================
Yes indeed. Interesting to see he has fallen foul of the law with this new scheme.
IIRC none of his earlier EBT structured schemes has been declared illegal if the rules that he laid down to be followed were actually followed.
Again IIRC he didn’t advise side-letters being issued right enough š
ecobhoy
No, Peter Lawwell’s role is not simply to maximise profits. His responsibilities are far wider than that. I know Sevco did it, but I would disown my club forever if they tried to divert money originally raised for charity to ‘maximise profits’ (or minimise loss). Equally to state that Lawwell has a responsibility to shareholders but not supporters (some of whom, like me, are both) is outrageous in my opinion.
ecobhoy says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:57 pm
Agree up to a point. However, when considering falling attendances, at a time when ordinary peoples incomes are being squeezed like never before, ticket/st price is by far the most likely explanation IMO.
Sorry to go a bit childish here but whilst having a quick shuftie to see if anyone from the SMSM ever did cover an Aberdeen AGM I came across this, taken from Micheal Gannon’s DRanger report on said AGM December 2012. Copied and pasted for a bit of light relief.
“The crowds are on the slide again as well so hereās a club that could do with a shake from top to bottom to wake it from its slumber.
Youād need to whisper it in the Granite City but Aberdeen should be looking to Rangers and Charles Green for inspiration.
Green might not be for everyone but not many can argue with what heās achieved by leading from the front, banging on doors and shouting his cause from the rooftops.
The result? Millions in the bank, thousands in the stands and the image created of a club that is up for a fight.
Who knows where it might end? But the contrast at Pittodrie is startling.”
The contrast is indeed startling!
Lawell’s comments sell papers. It’s nothing to do with the Agm, plc listed or otherwise!
I’m happy to let the 10m comment go unchallenged since we’ve already shown it up as the arithmetic bolcox it was. If he mentioned it, more fool him. If the readership continue to believe it, fool them too.
Ernie
That’s made my night that has.
Caller on SSB asked if Hearts win 3 or 4 nil tomorrow will Ally get the sack? Hugh Keevins said yes but D Johnstone said I can never (I repeat never ) go against Ally. That just about sums up our SMSM in a nutshell.
Tax Dodger v Vat Dodger continues….bit more info from DK…
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/rangers-blazers-war-dave-king-4670042?
From the DR story
“In the same email King also disclosed for the first time, the names of George Taylor, Andy Ross, Barry Scott – three other members of his 8-man consortium.”
Hmm….Barry Scott…isn’t that the Cillit Bang billionaire ā š
I notice the following story in the rag is their summary of the AGM. It is something like, since I’m not copying the link, lawell says gers must get to SPL under own steam whilst maintaining integrity of game, or similar.
So, credit where it’s due, the easy 10m headline was there and they ignored it. Good for them.
November 23rd 1988 was the day scottish football starting heading in the wrong direction, the day it all started to become false.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/picture-gallery-25-years-since-david-murray-bought-rangers.1385050556
The money borrowed was never paid back, they just borrowed more and it became even more false.
February 14th 2012 was the day it all started to become a bit more real.
Peter Lawell doesn’t like it because in the false days, his club could make more money and play with better players. But, unfortunately it was false.
Get over it, live with what you have and FFS, do not bend the rules to make it false again.
Not wishing to be smug, but PL’s wish for a “return” to the top tier by Rangers is breaking news to compete with “President Kennedy’s been assassinated”.
What is surprising is that he’s chosen to do the wishing out loud. Often, Celtic’s lack of reaction to the Rangers affair and scam has been defended by Celtic fans who say, quite rightly, that all other clubs have duty to the integrity of the sport.
However, throughout this endless saga, the loudest cries of derision I have personally endured when I mouth the words “sporting integrity”, have emanated directly or indirectly from Celtic Park.
Peter Lawwell has now put quotation marks onto his thoughts, but throughout this whole scandalous affair, no one has been working harder than Celtic to get Rangers back.
Financially, I suppose you can’t blame them. Celtic are the only club to have lost out in the Time of Opportunity that others have benefited from.
The real questions are as relevant to every club in Scotland as they are to Celtic and they are;
“Is the financial loss a price worth paying to rid ourselves of systematic cheating?
“Is it a price worth paying to deal properly with those who have sought to deny others opportunity by unfair means?
“is it a price worth paying to restore integrity to our competitions?”
The resounding (albeit implicit) answer from the clubs to that is in the negative.
It follows then that the real disease infecting the game is not that Rangers cheated, but that the rest have to a greater or lesser extent condoned it.
While perusing today’s news I ran across this in the Herald…..can’t get the full article to load and honestly I’m rather glad I couldnt….feel free to try though… š
“Rangers boss Ally McCoist says the Ibrox side owe it to the 10 staff made redundant at the club this week to beat Hearts on Saturday.”
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/sport/football/mccoist-squad-owe-it-to-the-rangers-staff-who-lost-their-jobs-to-beat-hearts.1416588139
ecobhoy says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:49 pm
4 0 Rate This
paulsatim says:
November 21, 2014 at 4:48 pm
A name from the past of the grand old days of yore,
Jim Waterson ā@jimwaterson
Porn baron former owner of Loaded who was involved in Rangers FC done for Ā£134m pensions āliberationā scheme http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-adviser/news/tpr-shuts-down-134m-pension-liberation-schemes/a785217?ref=new-model-adviser-todays-news-list
=======================================
Yes indeed. Interesting to see he has fallen foul of the law with this new scheme.
IIRC none of his earlier EBT structured schemes has been declared illegal if the rules that he laid down to be followed were actually followed.
Again IIRC he didnāt advise side-letters being issued right enough š
=======================================================================
Ecobhoy…as you are probably aware, I despise “all things EBT” as well as their close and distant relations.
However it is widely accepted within the “Tax Planning & Mitigation Industry” that had PBW’s recommendations been followed to the letter, this whole omnishambles may have come to a head via a different route(see Barcabhoy’s posts re MIH no longer able to fund the deficits of RFC(IL)on account of its own massive deficits!)
Nevertheless, would any player accept such a deal, doubtless brokered by his agent, whereby his financial rewards would have to be “discretionary” to comply with the legislation which enabled the EBT mechanism to operate as intended? š”
scapaflow says:
November 21, 2014 at 6:03 pm
ecobhoy says:
November 21, 2014 at 5:57 pm
Agree up to a point. However, when considering falling attendances, at a time when ordinary peoples incomes are being squeezed like never before, ticket/st price is by far the most likely explanation IMO
=================================================================
I think we have ended-up discussing different things. I wasn’t actually discussing the effect of STs on attendances.
What I was stating was that in some countries due to low TV income as well as low payments for league position and cup success that the only thing that keeps the door open is ST money.
However it’s been many a year since I toiled over the price elasticity of demand and I ain’t going back there š
I would think – off the top of my head – that forecasting the price elasticity of ST tickets might be quite a hit & miss affair.
Some clubs also have very poor catchment areas in terms of supporter numbers and travel distances so even significant cuts in ST prices might be highly inelastic in demand terms.
essexbeancounter says:
November 21, 2014 at 6:55 pm
would any player accept such a deal, doubtless brokered by his agent, whereby his financial rewards would have to be ādiscretionaryā to comply with the legislation which enabled the EBT mechanism to operate as intended? š”
—————————————————
Show me a player with undamaged brain cells and I might be able to answer your question š
‘Maximise profits – pure and simple’ are your words and not mine. You do qualify them with the illegality caveat but fail to recognise that there is no civil or criminal investigation into the status of the Rangers charity match in question while there are numerous investigations in relation to other aspects of Rangers and Sevco that allegedly resulted in this Ā£10 million shortfall in turnover or profit for Celtic.
As for ‘benefits being maximised by profits by better players’ this is even more outrageous than the original comment. You’ll be suggesting we adopt some sort of highly aggressive tax avoidance scheme next, perhaps one involving tax free loans that are never intended to be repaid.
Big Pink says:
November 21, 2014 at 6:48 pm
The real questions are as relevant to every club in Scotland as they are to Celtic and they are;
āIs the financial loss a price worth paying to rid ourselves of systematic cheating?
āIs it a price worth paying to deal properly with those who have sought to deny others opportunity by unfair means?
āis it a price worth paying to restore integrity to our competitions?ā
The resounding answer from the clubs to that is in the negative. Ultimately not because Rangers cheated, but because the rest have to a greater or lesser extent condoned it.
====================================================
Have you any realistic ideas as to how things can be changed?