The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 11:16
I get your drift, NTHM, but I’m sure he stated that all outstanding debts had been paid, not all overdue debts. He has also stated, on a number of occassions, that TRFC were debt free – patently not true.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 12:57
8 0 Rate This
Is CG doing one of his famous roadshows at Ibrox tonight? Ah, more greenbeams to brighten our weekend.
______________
he is in the louden tavern at ibrox tonight from 8pm for a Q+A with the hordes
should be good 🙂
nawlite says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 14:30
Shirley the RFC* fans must know what JT said about the death of the club. Why don’t any of them ask him why he said it and if he stands by it?
——
I reckon:
1. Not one of them will stand up and mention such a thing, because they would immediately be sniffed out as a Timmy and therefore excluded from WATP fun. This matters to e.g. RM posters, because their post-count acts as an indicator of how WATP they are. They cannot simply open a new account, or they will be sniffed repeatedly as soon as they start posting and have to spend the next five years proving themselves to be a genuine WATP again.
2. They’ve evolved a fantastic ability to completely ignore things that ask questions of Rangers FC. Witness also the lack of comment on whether Mr Green will now stand down because Mr Murray remains in post, as he said he would. Whether he was misquoted is irrelevant – TRFC fans are simply ignoring the issue.
Big Pink says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 02:56
12 1 Rate This
Interesting contribution from a source who wishes to remain anonymous.
————————————————————————————————-
I pointed out the concerns in the post from Big Pink to the illustrious Mr T Hutton. Below are his thoughts:
Edward
I may well be wrong here but my view of the restructuring proposals on offer has absolutely nothing to do with Rangers, their current position, their moves through the Leagues.
The proposed distribution scheme is light years ahead of the current carve up. The SFL League 1 clubs are therefore on board with this fairer distribution model. No doubt the additional money accruing to SFL 1 clubs in particular is coming from a variety of existing sources supplemented by money, currently being retained in the SPL, now filtering down to the SFL.
I have neither the time nor the inclination to forensically determine where each penny comes from……….all I have done is look at a redistrbution of funds that appears far more reasonable than exists currently.
This, along with a unified structure, more promotion/relagation opportunities, a common-sense approach to ground criteria, an all-encompassing solution for the existing 42 clubs, is what the SFL has been after for years. There is, I know, huge debates about the league structure. No matter which way you go with that, some fans will disagree.
I’m prepared to give the proposed new structure a go. Time will tell.
Hope this helps.
Regards
T
I’ve been doing some re-reading of creditors reports in response to some posts on a Hearts message board re the early payment of the Wallace money and why the SPL didn’t pay Hearts from money that was due to the Oldco soon after they went into administration.
The creditors report dated 24th Aug confirms that the SPL money was part of the assets purchased by Sevco
The same document also states that D&P received income from the SPL of £520,107 between 14th Feb and 13th Aug. I don’t know what the balance of money withheld would be, given that RFC would also have received interim payments earlier in the season. I’d also question why the SPL allowed these payments when debts to footballing creditors had crystallised on the club going into administration.
The first creditors report also gives an indication on what the Newco’s argument would be that they should still receive money from the SPL, that being one of timing.
I’m left wondering if the SPL and TRFC have only recently come to some agreement whereby the club has subsequently received the withheld sum on condition that they now satisfy outstanding payments to footballing creditors e.g. to Rapid Vienna and Hearts, thus Green has now paid off creditors with someone else’s money, and negotiated substantial discounts into the bargain.
Assuming the reported CG/MM spat is true..
Then shirley, Charlie is most definitely on borrowed time ?
A rather embarrassing episode of ‘management’ at TRFC, something akin to two kids squabbling in the playground, and the big boys have to come over and tell them to cut it out !
That’s no way to run any business: what happens if Charlie doesn’t like a decision by MM in future ?
In a ‘normal’ organisation,Charlie would have to go – and soon.
Whether this was intended, I have no idea.
Also, I could believe the earlier conjecture that the spat could be related to Charlie reporting internally that bills where paid – when in fact they hadn’t.
Bit off topic but, have to say it is nice to see over on Rangers Media they are giving praise to an article by one Giancarlos Rinaldi. A Scottish born Fiorintina supporter who attended the very same school as that where Brother Walfrid worked. St Joseph’s College in Dumfries. Who would have thought?
angus1983 says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 14:09
35 0 Rate This
During my research trip to RM, I came across a thread in which
the wisdom of having Mr Traynor on board is discussed. “He may be a berk, but he’s OUR berk” is the general opinion.
One of Mr Traynor’s since-deleted official club website pieces is
reproduced here for anyone who’s interested:
http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?
showtopic=247740&st=20#entry1060821332
In it, Mr Traynor has this to say:
“But why is it that so many continue to write or broadcast that
this club is a new club when it is the owners who are new? Is it a lack of basic intelligence or is it something more sinister?”
Perhaps he’s referring to the following quote from a sports
journalist at a popular newspaper on 13 June 2012. The author’s name escapes me for now:
“No matter how Charles Green attempts to dress it up, a newco
equals a new club. When the CVA was thrown out Rangers as we know them died.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You’re forgetting that poor put upon Jimbo wrote that at a paper that, as we now know, is under Peter Lawwell’s iron grip. James’ 13 June piece was clearly rewritten by some Lawwell lackie and bears no relation to Traynor’s factually correct original.
scapaflow14 saysFriday, February 22, 2013 at 13:14
We are all speculating, no one on here really knows with absolute certainty whats going on with Rangers.
,,,,,,
Well here`s some absolute certainty from Companies House
1 RIFC have NOT lodged an SH01 as mentioned in some previous posts. Even if they had this would not mean that shares were paid for by an exchange of cash on the day
2 Whyte`s Liberty Corporate hold a floating charge over RFCG who in turn hold the £27.5m floating charge over RFC
3 RFCG were due to be struck off on 17 July 2012 for not filing accounts. The strike off was opposed on 4 Aug 2012 and remains opposed
3 Liberty Corporate were due to be struck off on 25 Sept 2012 for not filing accounts The strike off was opposed on 12 Dec 2012 and remained opposed until it was withdrawn on 16 Feb 2013. As a dormant compnay Liberty Corporate`s only asset is the floating charge over RFCG which whenit is liquidated becomes a floating charge over RFC
4 RFC never filed any accounts for the financial years ending July2011 ( Whyte) and July 2012 (Duff&Phelps)
5 On 25 May 2012 RFC in Administration complied with its legal obligation to register at CH the “discharge in whole or in part” of 3 securities thus legally clearing or partly clearing debts owed by RFC)None of these securities applied to RFC debts owed to Close Leasing, RFCG(Whyte) or the Scottish Sports Council
6 On 6 July 2012 TRFC registered the SSC security debt which was previously a debt of RFC. Since RFC were in Administration until Dec 2012 and did not register the SSC security transfer to TRFC this means that RFC were not legally obliged to register the transfer of a security
Suggesting
RFC could have transferred the Close Leasing FC security and the RFCG FC security to another company without having to register the transfer at CH
Have I missed the launch of the new shirt sponsorship and the renaming ceremony? Must have slipped by without me noticing. Or is it more porkies?
StevieBC says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 16:02
_____________________________________________________
Mr Green is displaying exactly the same behaviour he did when was was Chief executive at Sheffield Utd.
http://aunitedview.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/charles-green-he-sells-team.html
The man has no people skills at all, he has no business acumen and his wanders into the business world has been using and losing other peoples money.
He has not invested a penny into TRFC/RIFC. He will hang on there until he’s pocketed as much money for himself as possible. Have no doubt about it, he has no long term plans for TRFC.
We all know already with most of his statements, that they’re filled with untruths and just damn right lies.
He is promising TRFC fans the world, exactly the same as he did with Sheff Utd fans. Green lasted 2 years as CEO there until his position became untenable after a massive uprising my the fans.
I have no concrete proof that he won’t last at long at TRFC, but I doubt he will last as long as 2 years.
You must remember, this man hasn’t invested a penny, is on a huge salary including bonuses and owns shares valued at the moment over £3m?
He can’t lose, he’s in pole position. He’s in a win, win situation no matter when he leaves. It’s just the timing of when he leaves, that’s the factor that will be dependent on how much money he’s sourced himself.
When he does leave, I suspect Mr Green will leave behind what he usually has in his forays into the business world. Him with a pocket full of cash and the investors holding nothing.
I base that on his track record. He may be able to raise money in a flotation of a business, but he doesn’t have the necessary skills or experience to make it a viable, profitable business.
The fact that is McCoist is being put forward as the club figurehead for the football debt payment story I wouldn’t be surprised if Charles is perhaps going to be a bit quiet and out of the limelight from now on.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/8516857/
carlislecelt says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 17:06
Not much of a surprise, given how much they want Fiorentina’s story to be a mirror of their own….
goosygoosy says: Friday, February 22, 2013 at 17:16
Well here`s some absolute certainty from Companies House
1 RIFC have NOT lodged an SH01 as mentioned in some previous posts.
====================
I disagree Goosy.
I received an alert from CH on Wednesday that an SH01 had been lodged. As I posted previously, it did not appear in the list of documents I have access to on the free Webcheck service. I asked if anyone had full access to CH docs and “puzzlingresult” responded with some details of what was on the form.
However, it didn’t appear to provide any new information.
torrejohnbhoy says:
When TRFC eventually reach the top division,whatever that may be,They seem to forget there is one major obstacle barring their way to the Champions League.
Celtic.
=========================
I thought this risk was not emphasised nearly enough in their prospectus and can only surmise that investors do not know enough about Scottish football or believe what many Celtic supporters expressed but was called paranoia.
So Charlie is a mug with no business acumen ??
Sitting pretty with a shed load of shares and on a nice salary.
Seems to be doing well enough to me
bill1903 says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 18:43
0 0 Rate This
So Charlie is a mug with no business acumen ??
Sitting pretty with a shed load of shares and on a nice salary.
Seems to be doing well enough to me
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yup. Everything is peachy in Green’s orange, red, white and blue world. Will this purple patch continue or will he fade to grey? It’s certainly not black and white.
He is in a no lose situation imho
(Although he may need plastic surgery and a name change)
Vanguard Bears take the hump with AT (and Mark Daley). It’s almost as if they can’t take criticism…
http://www.vanguardbears.co.uk/article.php?i=19&a=have-the-principals-of-journalism-died
“Rangers fans were astonished when Mark Daly’s BBC Documentary “The Men Who Sold The jerseys” won both the Foreign Press Award, and a Scottish BAFTA for a documentary that was riddled with conjecture, wishful thinking and inaccuracy. In fact, many, including myself, thought the game must be up when it transpired that BAFTA in Scotland is partly funded by the BBC, and is headed up by an individual who not only supports Celtic, but on Facebook and Twitter she is known to follow the extreme element that constantly try to inflict damage on Rangers F.C. as a full time hobby.
Almost as astonishing is the news that Channel 4’s Alex Thomson won the Royal Television Society’s award for best television journalist at an award ceremony this week.
This is the same Alex Thomson who has set out to offend Rangers fans at every opportunity over the last twelve months and whose journalistic integrity has been questioned by Rangers fans with very good reason.
As well as his use of offensive terminology, one should briefly summarise Thomson’s questionable antics to lay it bare exactly why he should not be getting any awards.
His first foray into Scotland consisted of a television interview with the Late Hugh Adam (the former Rangers Director). This was filmed at STV studios in April 2012. STV insiders were apparently of the opinion that they had never seen such bullying in an interview before, as the frail Adam was questioned and interrogated repeatedly, until Thomson had the answers he wanted.
He then interviewed Stewart Regan, again on television, and once again it was a master class in bullying.
He then claimed, still in April, that it had been two years since David Murray owned Rangers. At that time it was 9 months.
He also stated in one Channel 4 blog that he had bought a £30 ticket to an Old Firm match and sat in the Rangers end. When he posted a picture to prove he had attended, it was in the Celtic end where tickets were £42.
*Then came the claim of a “threat” from a Glasgow journalist, in which he looked to be duped by a fake twitter account set up by a Celtic supporter. He later admitted he knew it was fake and not a real threat, but still reported it to Strathclyde Police, and claimed on Radio Clyde it was real.
He also claimed, when challenged on the fake threat, that he had further evidence of threats. These have never materialised, and the Police dismissed his claims.
* An odd footnote to this saga was resolved on Tuesday. Strathclyde Police confirmed that their investigation into an alleged threat made by an un-named Scottish journalist against Alex Thomson, Chief Correspondent of Channel 4 News, has closed after no evidence was found. A Strathclyde Police spokesperson told The Daily Telegraph: “An investigation was carried out but we were unable to establish any evidence of criminality.”
When the Telegraph reported that the Police found his “threat” claims “laughable”, he telephoned the paper’s editor and told him to pull the article as it was ongoing – it wasn’t. They later re-stated that his claims had been rejected.
Thomson, along with others, reported journalist and blogger David Leggat to the National Union of Journalists as Leggat had challenged Thomson’s agenda. The corrupt, republican-ridden NUJ started proceedings against Leggat who subsequently resigned from the organisation in disgust.
Thomson stood outside Rangers’ training ground at Auchenhowie, challenging Rangers supporters to switch allegiances to Celtic when their club goes out of business.
He promised to challenge Harper MacLeod’s conflict of interest, as the firm was representing both Celtic and the SPL, only later to write that there was no conflict of interest.
In October Thomson repeated claims from Celtic blogger and disbarred ex-lawyer Paul McConville that Craig Whyte still had a controlling interest in Rangers, without a shred of evidence.
Also in October 2012, Thomson claimed that Rangers were “still” being mismanaged. In the same blog he also alleged that Rangers supporters and employees were bullying and intimidating those perceived as Rangers’ enemies, in a huge blog intended to damage the reputation of the club and its supporters. There was no evidence to back up any of his assertions. To date there have been no arrests of anyone in connection to any of his claims, and Thomson has still not provided any evidence.
In June 2012 He dishonoured victims of the Ibrox Disaster by tweeting an animated image of the John Greig statue, which sits outside Ibrox as a memoriam to the 66 fans who lost their lives, seemingly walking away from it’s position, whilst stating “We don’t do walking away”. The picture was accompanied by the tweet “This should amuse all fans of all colours who’ve a sense of humour”. He had already blogged in March 2012: “Outside one corner of Ibrox a monument stands to the 66 who were crushed to death on a cold, foggy January night in 1971.”
Sadly, I could spend all day on Thomson and his time at BBC Spotlight in Belfast, and the friends he made while filming IRA Propaganda film “Bloody Sunday”, or I could tell you that he admitted to two Vanguard Bears members that he knew blogger Phil Gillivan/McGillivan/Mac Giolla Bhain, who the Sun newspaper labelled as “tarred with a sickening sectarian brush”, since his time in Belfast… but I prefer to stick to the period where he has been sticking the boot in to Rangers.
While he may have fooled some with an assumed position as a journalist outraged by the mismanagement of the club, and that he believes that our poor supporters have being treated like muck, he is not fooling me.
His terminology and wording when describing Rangers in the last year has included such terms as “Sevco”, “RangersIA” (in administration), “Newco” and at his sickeningly worst “Daleks” – a crude comparison between the 66 victims of the Ibrox Stairway 13 tragedy and the sci-fi villains, who could not climb stairs, in the Dr Who? stories.
How could a man who is at best ill-informed and lazy, and at worst a compulsive liar, win an award for television journalism? I hear you ask.
ITN are the company that produce Channel 4 News.
The Chairman of the RTS, the company who give out the awards, is Glaswegian, Rangers-hater and ITN Chief Executive Officer John Hardie.
Is that just a coincidence?”
fishnish @ 19:17
As predicable as it is pitiful.
I can’t think of one single aspect of Scottish football that is not the better for their demise.
It’s just a shame we’ll still have to put up with one or two tribute acts before we can all finally move on.
Alex Thomson bullying a frail Hugh Adam in order to get the desired answers? God almighty, Adam was an outspoken critic of the Murray regime for years and years, and that is documented.
Adam’s take on it was eventually proven absolutely correct.
I won’t comment on any of the rest of that nonsense. I gave up in despair at that point. Do people seriously hold these points of view? How depressing
we keep waiting to hear from the sensible rangers fans. Maybe they should set up a New Rangers football monitor website.
Charles Green is doing really well.
From nothing (and for nothing) he has managed to get somewhere in the region of 5,000,000 shares in Rangers International PLC, with a current value of something like £4,000,000
Money doesn’t just come from nowhere though, so he owes a big vote of thanks to the rank and file Rangers’ supporters who put their hard earned in at 70p per share.
He’s not a clever businessman or anything, he just saw an opportunity to make money from the gullible, and was willing to do what needed done to take that opportunity. if that required rabble rousing and appealing to their baser instincts then clearly Mr Green was willing to do that.
80p is not a realistic value for Rangers shares, however that is what they are trading at just now, because certain people were willing to pay the 70p (just the fans, not the actual investors). For as long as those shares are trading at their current level (about 80p or so) then Mr Green’s share will be worth the £4m. If and when the share price drops Mr Green’s share will be worth whatever they trade at, at that time.
They could of course sell off Rangers FC Ltd, wholly or in part, and cash in that way, or as some people have suggested use assets as a regular income.
Bottom line though, Charles Green is not a clever businessman, he is an opportunist who was willing to stoop as low as required to make money. I won’t go into the shenanigans with regard how he got the business in the first place. I still find that whole episode absolutely astonishing.
fishnish says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 19:11
Thanks fishnish. Kept waiting as I read that for the “bees” remark – glad to see they held it bag for the “big finish.” Anyone at this point who still thinks it referred to those who died is completely ignorant, willfully ignorant, uninformed, or lacking basic comprehension skills – and I wouldn’t want to be taking my marching orders from any of the above (I’d sooner take them from a wasp!) In terms of tone and logic that screed reminded me a lot of the Tea Party here in the U.S. In both cases there’s a lot of genuine anger, pain and frustration at the situation but, constrained by an ideology that prevents them from assigning blame and responsibility where it really lies, they lash out at their usual list of enemies.
easyJambo says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 18:03,
I received an alert from CH on Wednesday that an SH01 had been lodged. As I posted previously, it did not appear in the list of documents I have access to on the free Webcheck service
,,,,,,,,,,,,,
EJ
Dont doub`t what you say for a minute
As you say your alert should have been reflected in an RIFC entry on CH Webcheck
The fact remains that as of today there is no SH01 lodged against RIFC according to the public record on CH Webcheck
Interestingly
According to the notes on the SH01 form itself it is NOT to be used as a means of registering
share allotments as a consequence of a company formation
It says on the form.
SH01
“You cannot use this form to give notice of shares taken by subscribers on formation of a company or for the allotment of a new class of shares by an unlimited company”
This sounds like RIFC would not qualify to use this form to list the parties who subscribed to the IPO
On the other hand Form SH01 says
“You may use this form to give notice of shares allotted following incorporation”
This sounds like form SH01 could be used when a new Company is issuing additional shares
Suggesting
RIFC is obliged to lodge an SH01 form if it allotted shares AFTER the IPO had closed
Perhaps “puzzlingresult” could post a link to the source of his information?
fishnish says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 19:11
Vanguard Bears take the hump with AT (and Mark Daley). It’s almost as if they can’t take criticism…
———————————————–
I wouldn’t argue with what they say. But only because it’s not worth trying to argue with something that doesn’t contain any coherent argument in the first place.
Just noticed Mr McCoist in the crowd at the Glasgow v Ulster rugby match. I thought he would be at The Louden as Charlie’s right hand man.
Maybe nothing in it, or perhaps he is scouting new players!!!!
chipsandblog @ 20:05
This creature you describe, the sensible rangers fan, most certainly does exist.
I consider myself very lucky to be able to call one of them a very good friend.
We met in that way you do when both our eldests started at the same Primary School at the same time.
All our children are now in their twenties and NotHisRealName is now a grandfather three times over.
We were out at New Year with some other friends and he was asked, not by me, if he had renewed his Season Ticket at Ibrox.
He said he hadn’t and gave this as his reason.
He said that even if it could be shown that Rangers had technically acted correctly within the law in everything they had done, in his mind they had still cheated and he wasn’t prepared to give them another penny.
he had told his son, whose Season Ticket he also paid, of his decision but said he would still pay for his if he wished.
His son agreed with him and asked him not to renew his either.
So they exist. And I’m sure I’m far from alone in knowing some.
Whether enough of them want to do something about it, and what they may chose to do, is up to them.
In NotHisRealName’s case, he is simply scunnered by the whole thing and has just moved on to other things.
If others like him did try to start again properly and fairly from scratch, I would wish them the very best of luck.
Oh, and my brother is one too. I knew I knew another one.
fishnish says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 19:11
Vanguard Bears take the hump with AT (and Mark Daly) …
——
The poor wee sausages.
Hilarious.
“No-one likes us, we don’t care,” trumpet these Peepil regularly. They do an awful lot of greeting and whining for not-caring folks.
The continued wilful misinterpretation of “daleks” gets me every time. The unbridled idiocy of it.
Can peepil really be that thick? That is what is “astonishing”, not the fact that recognised top journalists win awards. Mind you, they regard Mr Traynor as a praiseworthy journalist (despite him telling them their club had died).
Is it truly impossible for them to step back, look at the situation and go, “Hang on a minute, maybe this renowned investigate journalist at the top of his profession has a bit of a point here …”?
I can only imagine they actually do inhabit a parallel universe where they really are sensible and everyone else in their existence really is the enemy.
(P.S. My apologies if “sausages” is another previously unknown but grievous insult in the RFC fanbase’s shrunken and addled reality.)
bill1903 says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 18:43
12 3 Rate This
So Charlie is a mug with no business acumen ??
Sitting pretty with a shed load of shares and on a nice salary.
Seems to be doing well enough to me
_____________________________________________
He was in the right place at the right time, opportunism.
He will disappear better off and every other single investor will be out of pocket.
That’s a conman in my eyes, not someone with business acumen. 🙂
Thread on RM from the Louden Tavern inviting bears a long, and asking them to post questions for Mr Green.
Surprisingly, there are a lot of half-decent ones. They want answers about the kit deal, renaming Ibrox, how long he intends to stay, what’s Mr Traynor actually doing, etc.
Will be interesting to see if any of these questions get asked, and whether Mr Green actually answers them.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 17:30
Rate This
carlislecelt says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 17:06
Not much of a surprise, given how much they want Fiorentina’s story to be a mirror of their own….
___________________________________________________________________
Aye all the family are Tic supporters as well. Cannae wait to see if the post stays up once they know! Somehow?
angus1983,
half-decent questions? This sort of thing can’t be allowed ! Surely a boycott of the Louden Tavern will ensue
I loved the Vanguard Bears post…
Those nasty “Timmy” NUJ journalists where is the balance so obviously evident in the VB piece.
and don’t get me started on the Head of ITN (did no one ask what school he went to before giving him the job?)
angus1983 says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 21:08
………………………………..
I’m sure anyone who operates in the black arts as he does …just like Craig Goggle eyes Whyte….he will have mastered the art of talking and saying very little of any subsatnce….or he could be robust with his anaswers knowing he just has to say all the right things to get himself out of the Louden….
The sponsorship deal….’yes it has taken longer than we anticipated but when you are dealing with the top companies…for top money…then you want to make sure the deal is the right one’
Renaming Ibrox…’ ah well we know its a sensative subject and one that is dear to my heart as I know it is yours…you can be assured that OUR traditions will be part of any new name and IBROX will still be part of it’….(rousing applause)
How long will he stay…’ OUR enemies want me out…but I can assure you I’m going nowhere’..(rapturous applause)…
Mr.Traynor…whats he up to?….’James is doing a great job in attacking our enemies and providing the truth where there is lies…James will be defending our club every time our enemies lie’…(uncontrollable meltdown of cheering support)
And off he trotts to the bar to share half a pint of Guiness with the troops….what do you mean the Louden doesn’t serve Guiness?
“Just noticed Mr McCoist in the crowd at the Glasgow v Ulster rugby match. I thought he would be at The Louden as Charlie’s right hand man”
____________________________
Yea notice that clip too. It was a brillianrt game.
OT
Is it just me or does anybody else think rugby is becoming a really dangerous game.
The number of injuries in a senior game (some really serious) is far to high a price to pay for, what can be a great spectator sport. I love watching rugby but I feel the very high attrition rate of the modern rugby game can not be tolerated much longer. .
goosygoosy says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 20:23
easyJambo says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 18:03
Re: SH01 Rangers International
——————————————————————————————
To see the share info you have to toggle on WebCheck. Go to the company orer pge an near the top RHS you will see ‘Include Allotment of Shares’ and that will show you stuff below.
Type Date Description
SH01 18/02/2013 19/12/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 650960.56
LATEST SOC 18/02/2013 18/02/13 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL;GBP 650960.56
SH01 20/12/2012 18/12/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 576580.57
SH01 20/12/2012 18/12/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 242429.57
SH01 20/12/2012 07/12/12 STATEMENT OF CAPITAL GBP 1429.56
Brenda
stop counting….at the Louden love in tonight, CG said the kit and sponsor will be announced next week
paulmac2 says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 21:48
7 0 Rate This
….what do you mean the Louden doesn’t serve Guiness?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
To be fair to the Louden, I don’t believe Baird’s Bar serves Guiness either.
Thanks ecobhoy
So the summary you posted is saying that between 18 Dec2012 and 18 Feb 2013 the number of 0.01p shares in circulation has increased from 57,658,057 to 65,096,056 which means that since 18 Dec 2012 RIFC have issued a further 74380 shares, Maybe this was intended to be MM`s termination payment?
What would be really6 interesting to know is is the shareholding held by individual groups of investors,the price and date when cash is to be paid and whether any shares were awarded free or at a price of 0.01p to offset the discharge of a debt “bought” from RFC to provide D&P with an argument against alienation of assets
.This would nail the cash position once and for all
However that level of detail is unlikely to be shown in the full SH01
Brenda,
I was sure the announcement would be made tonight at the Louden about the kit deal. I was wrong but not surprised. Please keep the clock ticking, He has already pushed the timeline out. This is actually very important. Like most of the male commenters on here, wish the wife was like you 😉
“”Having to pay back all money won while cheating is common sense and a logical element that has been missing for a long time. It is clear that any monies won while cheating are tantamount to fraud and should be returned.”
Unfortunately not a comment from the SFA .
Paula Radcliffe for next SFA president? (with apologies to T. Hutton)
bangordub @ 23:35
🙂 thank you ……….. 423hrs and by the looks of it still counting for some time to come 🙂 hic niteynite
A nice Spiers piece on Stephen Thompson. I’m particularly encouraged by the last paragraph.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/stephen-thompson-has-stepped-into-his-fathers-shoes-but-is-walking-his-own-path-as-dundee-united-chairman.2028039
Can you post article Lord Wobbly for us who do not prescribe.
Sorry subscribe!
You might need to get the laptop out to read the article. Not so good on your phone.
carlislecelt says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 07:23
0 0 Rate This
Can you post article Lord Wobbly for us who do not prescribe.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don’t subscribe either, but here you go…
Stephen Thompson has been through a lot in his short career as Dundee United chairman.
First, and not least, there was stepping into the shoes of his old
man, Eddie, a figure adored by the Tannadice faithful, and then
along came Charles Green. In recent weeks, after a bit of a
contretemps, Thompson has returned to the board of the Scottish Premier League, having stepped down just three months ago. He appears to have his father’s combative instincts and nose for a challenge, despite being different in other ways.
The 46-year-old has lain low since the tiff with Rangers came to a head last month but, for United, that all ended satisfactorily.
Green, the Rangers chief executive, and the Ibrox side went to
Tannadice in the William Hill Scottish Cup and lost 3-0, with their officials and those of United not even passing the time of day together.
“It’s done, it’s gone now,” says Thompson. “Prior to that match
we had to put up with an awful lot as a club, but we chose
deliberately not to talk about it or crank it up; plenty others were doing that. When Rangers came here we did what we had to do – we beat them on the pitch. We also had a great turnout that day from our fans in the face of the boycott; in fact the crowd was about the normal size. And we paid Rangers their due – I think it was about £30,000 or so from memory – pretty soon after the tie.”
And Mr Green? Has there been any kissing and making up since? “I never saw Charles Green or any Rangers directors that day at Tannadice; they didn’t come into the boardroom,” says
Thompson. “Fine. It was their choice. I’m not going to talk about Charles Green, except to say this: I think he has done a good job so far for Rangers. It is time we all moved on.”
In the midst of all this Thompson had to find a new manager,
after Peter Houston announced he was leaving at the end of the season and the Tannadice directors decided to hurry him along.
By January 28, Houston was out. And by January 30, Jackie
McNamara was in.
So far Thompson’s choice looks richly vindicated. In his opening game, the new manager put Rangers to the sword and, notwithstanding a dire 6-2 defeat by Celtic last week, has now won three out of four with United.
Despite his fine record at Partick Thistle, some doubted that the softly-spoken McNamara was ready for the step up. But not
Thompson. “Jackie was incredibly impressive in our interview
with him and has been like a breath of fresh air at this club,” he
says. “I’m not going to knock Peter Houston: he was here for six years in total, and as manager was highly successful. But Jackie is a different guy and is very, very impressive.
“Appointing him was a risk, of course it was. But bringing in any manager is a risk. History will remember Jackie as being my first real appointment as chairman. With Peter [Houston] we just sort of fell into a working relationship when Craig Levein left. So Jackie is basically my first big call here. He has won three out of four so far and I think our fans like what they are seeing.”
Time will tell how wise the appointment was; so far it looks very good. But what isn’t in doubt is that McNamara was a cheaper option than retaining Houston. United, like most Clydesdale Bank Premier League clubs, are slashing costs and an inexpensive manager from a lower league was just about a necessity following Levein and Houston.
Eddie Thompson, originally a west of Scotland businessman,
came to love United and lavished money on the club. It is an
albatross that will hang forever around the neck of his son. “My
father put ridiculous sums of money into this club – all told
maybe about £5.5m worth if you factor in share-purchases and
other things,” says Thompson. “Only recently my family has also injected another six-figure sum, which will stand there as a loan.
“It’s a fight for every SPL club. If you look at our most recent
accounts to June 2012, we made a decent profit, but only after
selling David Goodwillie [to Blackburn Rovers for £2m plus add-
ons]. Our debt is down by about a third, to roughly £3.7m
compared to over £6m a few years back.
“It is a question of football ambition versus financial
responsibility. You can’t toy with your banking facilities. I’m not digging up the banks but these days they expect some form of debt-reduction. So we have had to reduce our costs while also aiming for success on the park. Dundee United actually has lower bank-debt but higher loans today compared to the period before David Goodwillie was sold. So I think that tells you about the commitment my family still has to this club.”
Four years on after Eddie’s death, does he ever tire of the
patriarchal shadow hanging over him? “I’m different from my
dad, everyone knows that. I think it took the fans quite a time to get to know me and accept me. It has been a challenge stepping into his shoes here; it is the whole ‘father’s footsteps’ thing. We were close but I’m my own man and I think I’m doing okay – aye, I’m doing fine.”
The mysterious business of Thompson stepping off the SPL board and then re-joining it again two weeks ago is scarcely worth going into – a tiff has been resolved behind closed doors. But what his re-emergence does mean is that Thompson, along with fellow board members Neil Doncaster, Eric Riley, Duncan Fraser and Michael Johnston, will be an influential voice in the whole 12-12-18 league reconstruction palaver over the next few weeks.
Thompson is all for the new model, having originally worked on the early draft of it months ago. “It is not a perfect solution, but I think it’s the best we’ve got. I think we need to get this structure over the line and go with it, otherwise we’ll be stuck with what we’ve got for years. I’ve met our fans, ArabTrust, our business supporters and I’ve laid out to them what we feel as a club.
“There are no other options on the table. There are a lot of
positives around it and I think the TV people are making positive noises about the ‘middle eight’ after the proposed split [after 22 games]. I think 12-12-18 is by no means perfect but is for the best. The fact is, there is no perfect solution.”
Our conversation over, Thompson then began enthusing in small-talk about Dundee United’s youth policy, and the gems he can see coming through. Was it not ever thus at Tannadice?
So Dundee Utd paid SEVCO their cut of the Scottish Cup money…
Now the question is….have the charities received theirs? You would have thought there would have been a big PR photo shoot arranged with Charlie handing over the big over sized cardboard cheque?
From RM the only account I can find of last nights Q&A.
More of the same from Chalres.
——————————————————————————————————————————
Sponsor to be announced next week would have been sooner but the sponsor wanted to time the press conference
He has no input on the football side of things that is ally and the coaching team
Traynor is in oz at the moment due to a his granddaughter being ill
Plans for rangers smartphone app and JT to develop the media side of things which will include after match phone in with super and himself
Plans to look at a soccer academy in the US, Reyna is head of sports development and he has spoken to him about this
His son and daughter come up for holidays and hadnt been to a match before xmas and are now fully fledged bears
He plans to retire at ibrox when the champions league theme is back at ibrox
None of the traitors will be allowed back at ibrox on his watch … Even Davis who came out and said recently
That’s all i can remember guys sorry. Thanks again to Robert for a great night
—————————————————————————————————————————–
RM posters then go on to discuss Martin Bain and the ‘traitors’ and totally avoid a post with a list of decent questions, no doubt on the basis that they have been posted by a Timmy or Tom English.
When’s Murray Park being re-named?
When’s the Olympiakos friendly?
Where are the signings from the Euros?
Where are the “4 or 5” pre-contracts that were “shortly to be announced?”
When’s the Sky series about our recovery?
When is our link to the Dallas Cowboys kicking in?
Why did we need to push through an IPO in less than a week, the week before Xmas, giving fans and fans group little chance of organising their money?
Why did Whyte say he met Green just before Xmas?
When are we getting the two different boards?
What’s the £22m for?
When are the stadium refurbishments starting?
If we’re to make £100m a year and only limit £30m to wages, where’s the rest going?
When are we going to see strides in the youth and development aspect we keep hearing about?
When are these global academies actually starting?
When’s the ticket office moving?
When are we building this museum with cafe/bar facilities?
When’s this ground breaking official media technology kicking off?
What is Brian Laudrup’s role, other than playing to the gallery?
Do we even have a kit deal?
When are we buying the Arsenal shares back, and when’s the friendly?
When’s the Man Utd legends game?
When are we announcing the feeder club links with teams all over the globe?
When’s the stadium expansion starting?
Lord Wobbly says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 08:17
____________________________________________
Cheers for that; good article and shows what a man of class is about! Compare with old CG.
This might not be popular, however here goes.
LNS has to be trusted implicitly when it comes to delivering a guilty or not guilty verdict. His entire fibre, his entire reason for existing professionally would never allow him to deliver a verdict which is anything other than just based on the facts.
As a minor sidestep , I really hope he has been presented with all the facts. It’s not down to him to ingather the evidence, it’s down to him and his colleagues to judge whether the evidence presented and debated should lead to a guilty or innocent verdict.
Therefore I believe that the Scottish footballing community should accept his guilty or innocent verdict , no matter how strongly we feel about the way the verdict should go. Rangers fans, or as far as I can see the majority of them, have been comforted by the 2-1 majority verdict of the FTTT. That verdict is not relevant to LNS, however I can understand their position. When you are in a very bad place , you tend to grasp at any lifeline, even if it turns out not to be attached to anything that helps you keep afloat.
Equally, fans of other clubs will point to the evidence provided on the RTC site, on Mark Daly’s award winning documentaries and by that other award winner Alex Thomson. This group of fans will also wonder why Rangers were claiming the value of Stefan Klos’s EBT loans , in addition to his salary and bonus payments, as part of an insurance claim when he had a long term injury.
However these positions from either side don’t matter to LNS. He will judge only on his terms of reference and on the evidence. Emotion or straw clutching are of no concern to him. I refuse to believe a man of his stature and eminence could be intimidated into delivering a “political” verdict. I believe that also equally of his colleagues on the tribunal panel.
Logic forces me to conclude that this will also apply to any punishments delivered , if guilty. However I will return to that in a moment.
If what I have written so far, has put some noses out of joint, then I suspect this next paragraph is best read with either a strong drink or blood pressure medicine close at hand.
Should Rangers be found innocent, then the entire Scottish football community owes them a massive apology. Not only Rangers, but the management of the club from 2000 onwards deserve a public apology for what they have gone through in terms of trial and investigation.
That is IF THEY ARE FOUND INNOCENT.
Innocence can and should bring with it justifiable outrage from their side , it justifies claims of prejudicial treatment and witch hunts . We should all admit we rushed to judgement and to it wrong.
However,
Should Rangers be found guilty , then they, their support and management owe Football in general, not just Scottish Football a similar apology. They will have been found guilty of cheating over a term that is unprecedented since Ceaucuscu was overthrown.
The punishments , if guilty, must be appropriate . LNS cannot, and in my view would not even contemplate punishments which were inappropriate . He would be being false to himself , his colleagues and his profession should he be intimidated in any way by threats of social unrest or retribution.
Scottish Football and Scotish Society would be in a very dark place indeed if we cannot trust the judiciary to deliver appropriately.
IF GUILTY, appropriate has to be measured against previous punishments. There has never been an accusation in the history of Scottish Football remotely as serious as the one Rangers are facing. The charges bring with it questions over the role played by individuals as well as the club as a whole.
IF GUILTY someone planned to deceive football over an extended period. They did this for glory, for money and for ego. Should that person be allowed to remain off of a “Sine Die” list, then the darker place will be made of Niobiumitride. There will be no light , there will be no tunnel.
LNS cannot be anything other true himself and his life’s work. That’s the only hope we have for the future of our national game. It can’t be any other way
goosygoosy says:
Friday, February 22, 2013 at 23:22
Re: Rangers International SH01
————————————————————————–
Not sure it does mean that. I think the 18/12/12 is just the date it was received/posted on website by Companies House – you can get copy of document to check by paying £1.
Barcabhoy,
After reading your post above, does this mean your secret “nuclear” bombshell of last summer was of the type the Americans go looking for when telling us why they are about to invade X ?
I never saw anything come of it from the supposed person in the media who found it, yourself or RTC who endorsed it.
Given the stooshy it caused, the many millions of words written on it, the accusations that come from here of media cover-ups, can you clear it up please.
Greenockjack
I made it very clear that the information I was told about was not mine to publish. That position hasn’t changed and I have no permission to publish it.
Before the Louden meeting last night I noticed a Darkside moan that live tweeting wouldn’t be allowed from the meeting.
Reminded me of a post on ScotsLawThoughts re The Wonderful Wizard in Oz which commented: ‘I utilised contacts in Melbourne, Brisbane and Sydney and from what I understand this “jolly-jaunt down under” was carefully monitored. The Q&A was not quite as open and casual as reported in the Scottish press the “Oz-Rangers Supporters clubs” insisted on (1) Pre-submitted questions in advance and they selected which ones could be asked (2) the supposed “open floor” questions were also taken from the pre-submitted questions (3) when trying to acquire a ticket for the venue you had to “state your interest” which was duly assessed (4) once the session started the doors were closed a few people loitered by the doors {not lost}, just there to ensure everyone remain in the room (5) just-short of full body searches (6) no-one was allowed to take photographs’, recordings or videos but at the end of the evening {selected few} fans were given an opportunity to meet & greet and have their photo taken with Mr Green – painstakingly choreographed and orchestrated.”
It looks as though the new media strategy is built round ‘control’ and I think we are well aware of the types of governments that make it a priority to completely control the media and its output. A cynic might view the manufactured ‘rage’ against the media by elite cadres of the Blue Brigade as part of the strategy.
However, I personally tend to plump for ‘clusterf*ck’ explanations and tend to think that the Inner Guard realise that they can’t keep their CEO’s trap shut so they have to prevent his pearls of wisdom and even moonbeams leaking out to a wider audience who might actually take note of what is being claimed and question it.
I rest my case with the observation that no one raised the Malcolm Murray debacle at the Louden but the audience were enraptured to hear that Green’s children, who were in attendance apparently, were now fully-fledged Bears.
I feel we’re getting near the end of the circus act and we will know we have arrived when Emperor Charles starts kissing babies – with a small fee for the signed photo of course.
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 09:19
___________________________________________
Yes I too feel the LNS will be entirely professional in making any decision(s), my worry as you highlighted is his receiving all the evidence, if he does cannot see anything other than guilty as charged. I know, I know!
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:03
0 0 Rate This
Greenockjack
I made it very clear that the information I was told about was not mine to publish. That position hasn’t changed and I have no permission to publish it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Overkill wasn’t required. Rangers can’t die twice. Once was quite sufficient.
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 09:19
14 0 Rate This
This might not be popular, however here goes …
———–
Very well said, though I have the strong sense that the LNS verdict will be irrelevant in that many minds are already made up on the issue. At this stage no amount of legalese will convince some people to change their current views one way or the other. As you say, we can only hope that the decision is based on ALL of the facts and not just the available facts.
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:03
Do you believe that the information that was presented to you will at some point see the light of day?
greenockjack says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 09:44
You make a fair point.
Last year there were lots of rumours of more information to come and hints of explosive stories in the offing.
Even a few weeks ago there was talk of an explosive story about to break. All that came out was the Traynor story, and although this was damaging to the man himself, it was not a surprise to anyone who has even remotely followed this story.
A few weeks ago Phil Mac also predicted that RIFC had raised considerably less than £22M and that ‘The Rangers’ might have as little as £500K in the bank. Then this week ‘The Rangers’ announce that they have settled all footballing debts which amount to a sum far in excess of this figure albeit five months after they originally announced payment.
In all the debates on this site and RTC there were accusations of journalists witholding stories that were detremental to RFC but that is exactly what has happened here. Hints about more to come that never actually materialise.
Now I can understand that any recent stories may require to protect sources and therefore immediate release may not be possible however some of these accusations are regarding a club now in liquidation and are almost a year old.
Surely if there is a story there that is in the public interest and particularly when football plays such a large part in public life in Scotland then it should be published.
Barcabhoy,
Thank´s for the reply !
Why wouldn´t someone in the media have went with it by now if it held up ?
Do you believe whatever it was to be 100% ?
Can you understand a sceptic thinking that it was put forward last summer to help maintain momentum in a certain bandwagon that helped to influence events ?
Long time lurker
Absolutely no idea.
greenockjack says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:20
0 0 Rate This
Barcabhoy,
Thank´s for the reply !
Why wouldn´t someone in the media have went with it by now if it held up ?
Do you believe whatever it was to be 100% ?
Can you understand a sceptic thinking that it was put forward last summer to help maintain momentum in a certain bandwagon that helped to influence events ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can understand that thinking. Do you believe it made a blind bit of difference in the grand scheme * of things?
* that’s just a turn of phrase and in no way suggests that Peter Lawwell was behind the demise of Rangers
LT Lurker
Do you believe that the information that was presented to you will at some point see the light of day?
———————————————————
Barcabhoy
Absolutely no idea.
————————————————————-
I´ll help you on this, the answer is No.
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 09:19
Re: LNS
———————————————————————–
In general I would broadly agree with what you say – there are some smaller issues I might nitpick with but won’t as the broader issues are what actually count.
However on the question of what ‘evidence’ is/was submitted to LNS I think that is critical in many ways. I hope that it might be answered by the enquiry actually detailing it in the Decision and I am sure that LNS is well aware that any lack of clarity over the foundations of his Decision will lead to a rejection by at least one side.
On the FTTT I think it is worth mentioning that some cases were conceded and we must not be blinded by the strident MSM whitewash campaign.
I fully accept that LNS may exonerate ‘Rangers’ but I will not personally be apologising for anything I have said or written on the subject because the EBTs were a high-risk business strategy which ‘Rangers’ as a business willingly engaged in and their supporters and creditors have paid a heavy price for that folly.
We also then have the elephant of future HMRC action – It might even happen that LNS clear Rangers now but 5 years down the line that Rangers is found guilty of every ‘charge’ brought against them by HMRC. What would we then think of a LNS not guilty verdict? I also feel the BDO investigation and many others potentially lurk in the wings and all may yet play a part in the melodrama.
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:22
Thanks. Whatever it is I hope it sees the light of day. I agree with the sentiment of Lord Wobbly – a club can only die once. To me its not about RFC dying the death of a thousand cuts its about addressing issues of fowl play where they exist.
I agree that if LNS clears the Club of all charges then an apology would be correct. Perhaps SC could consider acting as a spokesperson for the internetbampots in that regard?
I hope that the internetbampottery movement survives the RFC/TRFC saga and that integrity of the whole game and all those who play a part can be scrutinized in the future with the culture of objectivity that RTC established and helped flourish on-line.
For internetbampottery to survive as a respected platform if we get it wrong we should acknowledge that fact and move to make amends.
IF an apology is required I would like to think that we can make one. Indeed, when was the last time we heard an apology from those over at RFC/TRFC? To offer no apology IF one is required would in my opinion be wrong.
Lord Wobbly
Do you believe that the developing new social media should be held to account in this type of issue ?
Being held to account doesn´t mean hung at the Tower, moreso an internal pressure that ensures that the watchers play by the rules whilst calling out the MSM.
In this particular case why would a pressman desperate to sell copy hold onto to something “nuclear” or is he waiting for the end of this month ?
I would have thought that the fact that Souness was still being paid by Murray years after he left was pretty nuclear given the furore surrounding his transfer dealings. At any other time it would have been explosive. Unfortunately it got wrapped up in the whole EBT thing and was conveniently pushed to one side.
Unless of course the nuclear info is something different? Barca?
Re CG just being an opportunist who happened to see a way of making a fast buck ,I’m sorry but I can’t agree ,just as I don’t buy CW just happening to amble along and stumbling into this saga .
IMO these guys were sourced to do their bit and if you follow the money it should lead us back to peepil involved .
For my part I cannot get rid of the itch that is DM and Ticketus and the fact that anyone would advance any Scottish football club £24m at a time when our game was struggling just to make end’s meet .
DM knew Ticketus through previous dealings with them but how did CW know of them ?
I think I remember it being said that DM told CW of the option of using Ticketus when he was buying Ragers .Now I am no businessman but I would be peeved if I was DM and the guys I had dealt with at Ticketus did not drop me a line to enquire if I knew CW was seeking the funds to buy the club from them against future ST money .So IMO no one was duped and if that’s the case then that would suggest a plan rather than an opportunity.
If Ticketus are behind CG and are using the new regime to recoup their money how long would they hope to keep taking money from the club before the fans realise what is going on .My guess would be not long after next seasons ST money is in the bank .As soon as it was known that Ticketus were getting a big cut of the ST money CWs gig was up and if it found that they are getting any money from CG his gig will also be up ,so my guess is that they will be looking to get their money back ASAP and depart the scene with as much as they could get .
DM-Ticketus-CW is where the answer lies all the rest is just white noise
Re. LNS inquiry. Lord Nemmo did not build his reputation on being any bodies fool.
You sell him short when you suggest he may not be in possession of all the facts. His life’s work is about digging – in the legal sense that is.
This is a very high profile case and the result will be scrutinised the length and breath of Scotland. LNS is not going to jeopardise ( unlike the two learned gentlemen in the FTT case) his reputation over a defunct organisation.
greenockjack says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:40
In this particular case why would a pressman desperate to sell copy hold onto to something “nuclear” or is he waiting for the end of this month ?
Could be many reasons – not enough evidence, a DA notice issued, court injunction etc.
I do not know Barcabhoy from Adam. I have read on various forums that Barcabhoy has a solid reputation – a trusted source. I believe that it was Barcabhoy who alerted KDS to the use of EBTs by RFC and that HMRC believes that that use was improper, years before the events were made public.
On that basis I believe his word that he was made aware of some ‘nuclear’ information and that it is not within his gift to say more on that matter. Why would he tarnish his reputation and become the boy who cried wolf?
barcabhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 09:19
As a minor sidestep , I really hope he has been presented with all the facts. It’s not down to him to ingather the evidence, it’s down to him and his colleagues to judge whether the evidence presented and debated should lead to a guilty or innocent verdict.
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Barca
this is where it all falls down….i don’t believe the charge has been correctly framed. It shouldn’t be the SPL lodging the investigation, it should be the SFA – for it is the registration with them that is in question and it affects SPL, SFL (league cup) and SFA (scottish cup) not to mention UEFA competitions
IMO, Newco should not be involved in this and they shouldn’t even be invited to attend as the are a new club – if Spartans were promoted, would they be asked along?
No, it has been badly framed and i believe with a desired outcome in mind
Obviously we need to wait until the verdict comes out – but I already have serious concerns about JUSTICE being done here.
greenockjack says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:40
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Lord Wobbly
Do you believe that the developing new social media should be
held to account in this type of issue ?
Being held to account doesn´t mean hung at the Tower, moreso an internal pressure that ensures that the watchers play by the rules whilst calling out the MSM.
In this particular case why would a pressman desperate to sell
copy hold onto to something “nuclear” or is he waiting for the
end of this month ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for the reply GJ.
New social media has much to answer for on many fronts. But dragging the news of Rangers abuse of numerous rule books is not one of them. If the MSM sit on their hands (and stories) like that then social media should be lauded for putting it the public domain. Bloggers like Phil, RTC and others were absolutely correct to do so. They didn’t always get it right but they certainly got closer to the truth than the MSM.
Rangers fans, in particular, should thank them for doing so. If Rangers fans hadn’t been so miopic about their Celtic background, perhaps the Ibrox faithful might have been able to address the real culprits within their own club before it was too late.
I believe I’ve answered your question so will you now answer mine?
Do you believe that Barca’s nuclear comment made any difference to the sequence of events that led to Rangers liquidation?
I think sometimes commonsense should be applied rather than conspiracy. So apparently dynamite info was mooted last year but not used. I haven’t a clue what the info is and how earth-shattering it might be.
What I do know is that sometimes info cannot be used for a wide variety of reasons even if initially it was thought that it could be. There are more true stories that the media can’t run than they actully do – for a wide variety of reasons.
If I was a Bear I would be happy that yet another potentially damaging story hadn’t seen the light of day not unless of course my actual mission was to get details of the story perhaps in an attempt to unmask the source. Who knows but there are a lot of Walter Mitty characters out there and even more ‘would-be’ ones on blogs.
Then someone else seemed upset about more recent dynamite revelations that also didn’t run about Rangers. I don’t think these revelations were actually spelt out but they may well just have been the very damaging but hilarious comedy routine between Murray & Green which has just run or it may be other equally damaging revelations yet to be unveiled when the white smoke gives the signal.
Legatt & Graham have both said that the Murray & Green debacle has been ongoing forever so that really could be candidate. However, I am amazed at the ‘innocence’ displayed by I assume football fans at the time-honoured use of ‘wind-ups’ 🙂
You really have to get a grip guys or I will start to believe you’re actually working for a PR outfit or the all-powerful Rangers media machine which seem to have run out of petrol recently.