The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
Senior,
Mark Daly has stated that nobody from the SPL has asked him for any evidence. I presume that includes the SPL enquiry panel.
That may very well be because LNS agrees with the SPL legal team that there is a Prima Facie case to answer, and the evidence is more than adequate to support the charge.
He will of course listen to the alternative view provided by the Rangers fans fighting funds QC and then he and his colleagues will decide
I have no problem with that, my comment on evidence availabile was made in light of Martin Bains request to ( I think Alastair Johnston) for shredding
LT Lurker
Why would he tarnish his reputation and become the boy who cried wolf?
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I´ll answer you´re hypothetical question with “longterm plausible deniability”.
From day one to the last it will be the same.
What would there be to gain ?: Short-term influence within developing situation then hope all forget.
That is only my take and given this site watches the media (new or mainstrean) would expect it to be respected if not agreed with by all.
Barcabhoy. You say that Rangers were claiming the value of Stefan Klos’s EBT loans , in addition to his salary and bonus payments, as part of an insurance claim when he had a long term injury. Surely this is the proof that RFC considered this as his wage and not a loan. Very interesting if correct.
greenockjack says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 11:07
Why would he tarnish his reputation and become the boy who cried wolf?
I do not believe that my question was hypothetical.
I agree that this site should and that it does hold the media (both new and old) to account and that process can involve the questioning the postings made by others. By and large I believe that the people who contributed to RTC and to TSFM do this well. More often debates are well made.
To me it appears that you are looking for answers that you know that Barcabhoy cannot provide. Unless you also have access to evidence surrounding the nuclear story all that you (and I) can go on is trust.
From my reading of your posts it appears that you believe that the nuclear event does not exist and the hypothesis was advanced to maintain momentum, that all things RFC were corrupt.
My own view is that the original postings made by Barcabhoy on the nuclear event and the conformation offered by RTC are valid. In the absence of evidence, I fall back on Occam’s razor – in that regard I feel that Barcabhoy’s depiction of events is the simpler theory and until simplicity can be swapped for a deeper explanation supported by evidence, I retain the view that a nuclear story is out there.
Long time ago I posted that how people felt about Rangers old and new all depended on what was eminating out of Ibrox.
There will always be those who would gladly see them die regardless of their financial and league position.
There are those perhaps dislike the club but realise that with 40k fans turing up they cannot be discounted in terms of their role in Scottish Football.
There are those who feel sorry for fellow football fans who have seen their club destoyed by big time gamblers.
Then there are those who had a degree sympathy for ‘[the club as a whole’ at the beginning of the saga but have become hardened in their views due to the lack of acknowledgement of even the slightest bit of wrong doing, the skullduggery of the asset sale, the ‘name them’ and boycott them rubbish and the spivery of the current CEO. All of the above have come together to define ‘the club as a whole’ as it stands at present.
In their current guise then many on here are hoping that any sniff of trouble will see the end of this most distasteful mob.
However the trouble is that unlike RTC, where there was solid evidence, now people are scrambling around chasing a load of rumours and conspiracy theories in the hope they will be the downfall of the T’Rangers.
Frankly, the trouble with rumours and conspiracy theories is that a lot of them are just nonesense. Invariably somebody blabs whether it be an issue of national security of an office affair.
Yes we need to keep asking questions of T’Rangers, the footballing authorities, the MSM and now Hearts etc in the interest of the Scottish game.
Ye sthere is always a bit of fun to be had analysing the latest bit of gossip eminiating from Iborx and trying to determine what it all means.
However with regard to T’Rangers I think we are just goiong to have to wait to see what LNS has to say and how the cash flow situation goes at T’Rangers.
I believe I am correct in saying it was estbalished that RIFC own Ibrox and Murray Park. The floating charge on Ibrox may remain a mystery but there is no sign anyone looking for any money against it at present. I for one think this is a red herring.
From recent discussions it appears RIFC may indeed have got the £22m (minus admin fees) through the IPO.
As I keep droning on, the future of T’Rangers is really down to how they manage their cash and the cash flow situation.
What is clear is that it takes a lot of money to run a club this size and to do so sustainably something has to give, be that one the park or one (or many) of the much touted initiatives. Even having dumped debt and having access to monies all Scottish clubs, bar one, dream off, they should know from history that they cannot have it all.
The recent Malcolm Murray issue tends to suggest their may be an element of prudence and common sense taking over at the club. If that is the case then I suspect they should be able to pull it off and look forward to SPL football and possible entry to Euro football in 3 to 4 years time.
I may be wrong and something is yet to emerge from the woodwork but I think it is just going to be a long slog.
Lets just keep it together as best we can.
ratethisthenyabampots says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 11:27
Barcabhoy. You say that Rangers were claiming the value of Stefan Klos’s EBT loans , in addition to his salary and bonus payments, as part of an insurance claim when he had a long term injury. Surely this is the proof that RFC considered this as his wage and not a loan. Very interesting if correct.
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From memory it was clearly spelt out in the FTTT decision – I don’t have that to hand on this ‘puter but you will be able to find it with a search if you wnt to check.
Re above post on LNS
100% agree on approach by LNS..well thought out argument!
100% disagree with conclusion on appraoch following a not guilty verdict….not well enough thought through IMO
Anyone who has read the FTTT detail will find it impossible to conclude any level of innocence on anything given the seeming behaviour of Senior officials ….and the very serious implications of a potential guilt verdict
ALSO ..think about it!!!
If you are up in front of a judge on 50 counts of burglary and you plead guilty ,or are found guilty , on 5 …does that not still make you a burglar?….If I own one of the 5 properties burgled…do I apologise to the burglar? Don’t think so!!!
It took over 20 years for the truth on Hillborough to out….
No one can conclude certainly on any innocence in this entire affair or indeed the full depth of guilt here until this case is properly concluded ….however long it takes !!!
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 10:52
Barca
this is where it all falls down….i don’t believe the charge has been correctly framed. It shouldn’t be the SPL lodging the investigation, it should be the SFA
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From memory most of the ‘charges’ involve the SPL rulebook and only one relates to the SFA rule book. I’m not using my normal computer today so don’t have usual access to documents.
So I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s the SPL doing it. There’s also the question of where would the right of appeal lie if it was the SFA which carried out the investigation and found Rangers ‘guilty’?
Barcabhoy
I agree with almost all of your comments with one major exception.
If Rangers are found innocent, no apology is required.
There was a clear case to answer, the evidence that there was a case to answer was overwhelming.
If found innocent, they will have answered it to the satisfaction of Lord Nimmo Smith and his panel and everyone in Scottish football must accept it. We cannot start apologising for applying the due process of law in circumstances that clearly warrant it.
In like manner, if Oscar Pistorius is eventually found innocent, he will be owed no apology by anyone, There is a clear case to answer, the evidence that there is a case to answer is overwhelming.
At the end of the day those responsible for creating the circumstances in which Rangers had such a clear case to answer – the board of directors under David Murray – have gravely damaged Scottish football and forced it to incur huge costs in clearing up the issue.
If anyone is to offer an apology, regardless of the outcome of the investigation, it is them.
Barcabhoy
More than once Ive asked myself what if nothing wrong took place and everything was done by the rules?
But not just football registration rules but membership rules and club licensing rules and SFA disciplinary rules? Not to mention the strange administration then liquidation.
They all form part of the environment in which judgement is being passed and whilst a not guilty verdict would have to make me reassess my judgement, I would still want clarity on a range of issues to convince me that Rangers were not benefitting from either a perception or a reality that Scottish football could not live without them.
I would find that totally unacceptable in terms of sporting integrity unless those at the SFA on whose watch this debacle unfolded and who may have steered it to its current state, did not resign and present a portfolio of changes to their procedures that were at fault in order to prevent a repeat of any club having too much influence at the SFA.
Whether LNS pronounces Rangers guilty or innocent there will be no apology from me until the SFA are brought to account.
For all I said in my post above I see the DR is reporting Kris Boyd is signing for Killie until the end of the season.
How long before we see the Kris (Free agent at the end of this season) Boyd returning to Ibrox rumours 🙂
ecobhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 11:57
……So I think that’s one of the reasons why it’s the SPL doing it. There’s also the question of where would the right of appeal lie if it was the SFA which carried out the investigation and found Rangers ‘guilty’?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For me, one of the biggest fallacies of this whole affair – the right of appeal and where it is heard meaning that the SFA cannot participate in the process of assessing whether a member club has followed the correct registration rules.
Which organisation is it that sits in judge and jury of indiscretions of players, management or clubs against the laws of the game in other circumstances? Where do appeals then get heard against such misconduct charges? The SFA apply judgements and hear appeals on those judgements every other week..For that organisation to say that, because they might need to hear an appeal in this case, they cannot take part in the investigation and judgement, for me is total nonsense. They have simply washed their hands of it because they could not stomach the potential fallout, is my opinion. They have found a convenient excuse, unremarkably unremarked upon by the media.
At the very least, the accusation levelled at Rangers covers registration of players for ALL domestic tournaments they took part in during the years in question. For the other two organisations affected to leave it to the third one to establish the facts is disgraceful. At the very least, there should be three parallel inquiries taking place – or for pragmatic reasons, one enquiry covering all three organisations and their tournaments – and that should be led by the highest authority, the SFA.
Interesting mention of the songbook on Setanta from the Berwick game.
wottpi says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 08:42
From RM the only account I can find of last nights Q&A.
——
Only one significant addition on that thread now …
“Said he won’t go back to SPL whilst they are trying to take titles off us and transfer embargo in place.”
Sounds like No Return is being qualified a little bit now … and they’ll be quite happy to return to the top league when their time comes round (plenty time for LNS, and the embargo runs out later this year).
In other words, the “No Return” line becomes meaningless with one sentence from Mr Green.
As usual, no comment on this from the bear family. Mr Green has them completely under his thumb.
Well said that man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlVlW22OMqY&feature=youtu.be
Yep the songs are not really suitable for tv – “f****** basdards”, “Why don’t you go and catch a pedo”, directed no doubt at the police who, Derek Rae has twice assured us, are filming the Rangers fans and monitoring their “sectarian singing”. “Who sha**ed all the boys” was another. Talk about obsessed, wonder what a psychiatrist would make of them?
bobferris70 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:30
Ah, the TRFC tradition of making new friends across the third division.
TRFC have issued a statement re their ‘disappointment’ at the behaviour of a ‘section’ of their support (but all the other fans have been braw). No apology, obviously.
Scotland’s shame strikes again, no denying it this time pathetic!
Bomber Brown gets Dundee managers job until end of the season….down to his wide-ranging experience motivating young players facing the drop or a payoff for keeping schtum ?….you decide 🙂
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21557895
csihampden says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 12:35
At the very least, there should be three parallel inquiries taking place – or for pragmatic reasons, one enquiry covering all three organisations and their tournaments – and that should be led by the highest authority, the SFA.
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I hear what you say but the charges against Rangers are the most serious I have ever experienced and potentially could destroy the club. So no matter who conducts the inquiry then natural justice demands that there must be a right to appeal the decision to as impartial and relevant a body as can be found in Scottish football.
I note that you don’t say who the appeal body should be which is disappointing as you might possibly have a viable alternative solution. You state: ‘The SFA cannot participate in the process of assessing whether a member club has followed the correct registration rules’. But if they take the appeal they will do just that.
You also talk of three parallel invetigations – that would be a nightmare and where would the right of appeal lie from each separate investigation. It is my understanding that the SFL wish to take no action so should action be taken against them for their decision and if so by whom – and dare I ask where would the right of appeal lie in that case.
Life isn’t always neat and clear-cut and this issue goes way beyond carded players and managers running off at the mouth. A solution has been found to deal with it. It is by no means perfect but I have yet to hear a better one.
On the issue of the media I have no more respect for the majority of them than I have for the SFA but perhaps the MSM have quite simply not been able either to come up with a better solution.
Even the ‘pundits’ ( and I use that term very loosely ) on SSB are dumbfounded at bomber’s appointment? I’d go with the schtum HP 🙂
When I saw news of the Brown appointment on Twitter, I assumed it was a joke. Is this the end of days, or something? If I was a Dee fan, I’d be spitting nails.
Rangers Statement on Songs
Rangers Football Club has issued the following statement in light of events at this afternoon’s game at Shielfield Park.
The club is disappointed by certain outbursts of inappropriate singing by a section of the support at Berwick.
Our fans have been excellent this season both home and away and we do not want to see this tarnished.
I wonder if TV will still pay-out – what was it £100 million a year Green was estimating – if they have to show games involving Rangers with no sound like a silent movie.
I assume from the comments on the clip that the broadcaster can’t be from the SMSM – let’s hope he has a police escort out of the ground arranged.
Humble Pie says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:40
4 0 Rate This
Bomber Brown gets Dundee managers job until end of the
season….down to his wide-ranging experience motivating young players facing the drop or a payoff for keeping schtum ?….you decide
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21557895
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Well I didn’t see that coming. I suspect there is much scratching of heads amongst the Dundee support. In fact amongst the whole of Scottish football.
434 🙂
Andy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:56
2 1 Rate This
Rangers Statement on Songs
Rangers Football Club has issued the following statement in light of events at this afternoon’s game at Shielfield Park.
The club is disappointed by certain outbursts of inappropriate singing by a section of the support at Berwick.
Our fans have been excellent this season both home and away and we do not want to see this tarnished.
_____________
McCoist just been espn he never heard anything just been told when he came in after the game
and its a one off as they have been magnificent all season
and hopefully it wont be repeated
AMcC in denial ……… Again!!!
ESPN have apologised over the appointment of John Brown as interim Dundee manager and say they have contacted the police about it.
Our fans have been great this season and we dont want to see this tarnished.
Oh Sky and ESPN must have been dubbing over prvious games with some other clubs abusive fans then to what I have heard at previous games on tv this season
Has anyone representing Dundee fans made comment to this earth shattering news released today?
Brenda
Heres a flavour..
Posted 23 Feb 2013 14:18re: Anybody happy that Brown has been appointed ?
The Mrs. She now has someone to go shopping with every Saturday from now until the end of the season
yourhavingalaugh says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 14:24
6 0 Rate Down
Our fans have been great this season and we dont want to see this tarnished.
Oh Sky and ESPN must have been dubbing over prvious games with some other clubs abusive fans then to what I have heard at previous games on tv this season
_________________
there was no billy boys sung after there injury time goal at hampden in Dec
you must have been hearing things 🙂
Andy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:56
Our fans have been excellent this season both home and away and we do not want to see this tarnished.
=========================================
I find it quite astonishing that no-one from Rangers has been at any of their previous games.
Why waste time posting about the singing today?
After the League Cup Final in 2011, the SNP justice secretary Kenny Macaskill, who was at the game, said
“The fans contributed to a memorable occasion, and I urge that their positive example inside the ground is replicated outside it over the course of the evening and beyond.”
This despite the fact that 13 minutes into the first period of extra time, the whole of the Rangers support, and in particular supporters in the posh seats of the South Stand, seated not 15 yards away from Mr Macaskill, rose to their feet to sing about being up to their knees in Fenian blood. The singing continued right through the end of the first period as the teams changed end.
One Scotland, many Billy Boys.
http://www.somewhereinbangladesh.net/community/profile/aononno/1668/6069
From Follow Follow
________________
this/these are my questions that hopefully someone at Rangers or the fans groups may address .
on a drab , dreich , mid february day in England with a noon kick off , why is there an official from celtic ( the team that are romping the SPL , 3 divisions higher ) watching Rangers play ?
why on this aforementioned day do we witness the , for arguments sake , the worst song catalogue sung by the Rangers support in many a year ?
is it too much of a stretch to ask if this was co-ordinated ?
could this have been organised by people who we know will stoop to levels only reserved for mentalists whose obsession with us is greater than their own club ?
could this be the next step to try and tarnish Rangers after failing to kill us off when we were on our knees ?
am i being too paranoid to even suggest that these questions should be asked ?
__________
and he had a load of them agreeing with him that something just wasnt right 🙂
It’s ok it was an ‘isolated insolent’ According to AMcC I think he meant incident …..so articulate as always 🙂
Even They know JTs a fud; From Rangers Rumours:
21 Feb 2013 18:00:11
a web site Scotland online has this:
“”Malcolm Murray’s tenure as Rangers chairman could come to an end today after the club’s directors asked him to step down. (The Herald)””
Did it happen?
Can anyone be specific and name one thing M Murray has done wrong?
He should stand his ground. He has no case to answer. He has probably only been doing his job properly as a conscientious chairman.
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Doubt we’ll ever know as apparently he signed a confidentiality clause.
Can’t think why CG was so annoyed at him appearing on Sky last week.
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Can anyone be specific and name one thing M Murray has done wrong?
NO! but I can’t wait to find out.
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What did he actually say on sky?
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Being reported this morning that he’s staying after 48 hours of talks/mediation.
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Hopefully those people who have tried to smear Malcolm Murray’s character will now apologise.
Did any fans really make complaints against him or was that a smokescreen from our latest recruit?
At what point did the term “inappropriate” replace “wrong”?
Perhaps around the same time that “administrative error” replaced “willful deceipt”?
Humble Pie says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:40
Bomber Brown gets Dundee managers job until end of the season….down to his wide-ranging experience motivating young players facing the drop or a payoff for keeping schtum ?….you decide 🙂
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It’s all down to a misunderstanding. Someone on the board thought they’d seen him on TV a few months ago shouting “show us the ‘Dees”.
http://t.co/qmHrx0GqKS
Ally forgive them as they were a wee bit out of order.
MSM in Scotland will be ok with that Ally. In fact they will probably apologize to you for you having to apologize for your fans behaviour.
We all love new clubs (with old familiar fans) who make friends wherever they go. .
The voice of reason from follow follow
“Tell me, see the guys that were quite happy to give it FTP today, do you think they would give it FTP if some mental bastard would punch their granny in the face every time they did it?”
You really can’t argue with that.
With regards to the songbook at Shielfield Park today, I posted on TSFM in the wake of the previous encounter between Berwick and TRFC earlier this season.
I don’t have the skills to locate that post but I commented that the match commander (an inspector from Northumberland Constabulary) was reported in the local press that he would be submitting a report to the Scottish football authorities on the singing/chanting by the visiting fans. Again, due to being a numptie, I am unable to locate the newspaper article in question.
I now wonder if the police did submit a complaint and, if so, did the SFA take any action? It will be interesting to see if similar reports appear in the English press or if the Northumbria Police contact Hampden once more.
Im sure todays story was the English hooligan unit finishing off any potential for Pretendygers to appear on their patch ever. At the same time videoing any rumoured visitors to the England Scotland game in August.
Ally says today’s offensive singing was a one of.
Aye one of many file and sectarian songs and one of many occasions at many grounds.
Tommy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 15:54
2 0 Rate This
With regards to the songbook at Shielfield Park today, I posted on TSFM in the wake of the previous encounter between Berwick and TRFC earlier this season.
I don’t have the skills to locate that post but I commented that the match commander (an inspector from Northumberland Constabulary) was reported in the local press that he would be submitting a report to the Scottish football authorities on the singing/chanting by the visiting fans. Again, due to being a numptie, I am unable to locate the newspaper article in question.
I now wonder if the police did submit a complaint and, if so, did the SFA take any action? It will be interesting to see if similar reports appear in the English press or if the Northumbria Police contact Hampden once more.
_____________
todays statement
__________________
Northumbria police has praised the majority of fans at today’s Berwick Rangers game, where a sell out crowd of 4,200 supporters attended the match.
Superintendent Paul Orchard said: “I’d like to praise the majority of fans who were mainly good natured and only interested in action on the pitch.
“Public safety is always our number one priority and given the rural location and number attending the ground we had a policing plan in place.
“Both sets of fans were in good spirits and enjoyed the occasion.
“Despite this, we have received reports that some sectarian chanting did take place and these will be investigated fully.”
Three people were arrested at the match – one on suspicion of possession of drugs and two on suspicion of sectarian chanting.
http://www.northumbria.police.uk/new…s.asp?id=71836
ecobhoy says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 13:47
“I hear what you say but the charges against Rangers are the most serious I have ever experienced and potentially could destroy the club. So no matter who conducts the inquiry then natural justice demands that there must be a right to appeal the decision to as impartial and relevant a body as can be found in Scottish football.”
No problem with a right to appeal – just a problem that that appeal body HAS to be a different organisation from the one which sits in judgement in the first place. Surely they could have a different set of people casting a different set of eyes on the evidence, but still be part of the same authority? Even in our judicial system, it is the same judicial system and court process which hears appeals as the one which applied the original conviction. Does that mean that that system and court process shouldn’t sit in judgement in the first place, because it might have to hear an appeal later? Too convenient for the SFA to avoid initial accountability here in my view.
The last time I heard such serious charges was ….. last summer, when they were described as only one step lower than match-fixing by the panel that sat in judgement. And that inquiry was held by…..yep, the SFA (although they appointed an independant panel). And the appeal against the punishment was heard by…..yep, the SFA (via the appeal panel). And then Rangers appealed it again when it was upheld, this time to the CoS. So what makes anyone think that the SFA stepping outside the initial inquiry this time so they can act as some end-of-the-road final arbiter in this case has any relevance?
“I note that you don’t say who the appeal body should be which is disappointing as you might possibly have a viable alternative solution.”
I do – the SFA should be accountable for the initial inquiry and the appeal process, when the charges are so serious and stretch across multiple competitions. If they choose to utilise independant panels to carry these out – fine, they did that last year also. But nonetheless, they should be accountable for the process – not just the SPL. Maybe I wasn’t explicit enough about this in my original post.
“You state: ‘The SFA cannot participate in the process of assessing whether a member club has followed the correct registration rules’. But if they take the appeal they will do just that……”
fine, so why not lead it from the start?
“You also talk of three parallel investigations – that would be a nightmare….”
totally agree, which is why I suggested a single one, cutting across the three competitions run by the three authorities, led by the SFA. This is what I said: “At the very least, there should be three parallel inquiries taking place – or for pragmatic reasons, one enquiry covering all three organisations and their tournaments – and that should be led by the highest authority, the SFA.”
“It is my understanding that the SFL wish to take no action…..”
quite simply I find that an unacceptable position if it’s true (although I’m not sure it is, I believe that have actually said they are happy with the way the situation is being handled, which is being interpreted as “we will not take further action”). As a competition-administering authority, I think they are not representing the other clubs who took part in their competition fairly if there has been evidence unearthed that one club did not follow the administration rules properly, and they are not willing to do anything about it or even investigate it. Are they going to continue with such leniency in future? Will it not matter from now on how all the other teams register their players in their competition?
“It is by no means perfect but I have yet to hear a better one.
but perhaps the MSM have quite simply not been able either to come up with a better solution.”
Well, what I’ve been explicit about above is in my view a “better solution”. Better than having one authority in three perhaps finding that a club did not register its players properly for their competition, leaving the other two with a decision to make as to whether they now investigate also for their competitions, or decide not to and send a riciculously compromised message out on whether rules are meant to be applied in their competitions or not.
…..
wottpi says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 12:22
For all I said in my post above I see the DR is reporting Kris Boyd is signing for Killie until the end of the season.
How long before we see the Kris (Free agent at the end of this season) Boyd returning to Ibrox rumours
=================================================================
I reckon it’s a near certainty Boyd will be back at Ibrox in the summer.
Excuse my ignorance but who was the Celtic official at Berwick today?
Tony Hamilton, Celtic Media
Anyone know much about him/them?
Chris Graham has just tweeted that he is at Shielfield
Chris Graham @ChrisGraham76
Fresh from rabbiting on about Rangers to G Balague when he visited Celtic, seems Tony Hamilton, Celtic media, has turned up at Shielfield!
I asked Chris to clarify:
2 mins Alan C @GodStruthFF
@ChrisGraham76 Who are Celtic Media Chris – bloggers, or attached to the club? #obsessed #stalkers
Chris Graham @ChrisGraham76
@GodStruthFF No he works for Celtic. Their official media.
Their obsession knows no bounds apparently. When was the last time Rangers FC sent a non-coaching employee to observe them?
GreenockJack
I appreciate you’ve probably been out and about today but, when you get a moment, I’d appreciate it if you could reply to my earlier query. I’d hate to have to keep on at you in the same way you badgered Barca 😉
Do you believe that Barca’s nuclear comment made any
difference to the sequence of events that led to Rangers
liquidation?
Gordon Dalziel hang your head in shame it’s only at Berwick this happens it’s pretend sevco supporters who only attend the Berwick v sevco games and don’t go to any other games ever sad deluded individual. SSB get rid
dentarthurdent42 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 15:47
21
0
Rate This
The voice of reason from follow follow
“Tell me, see the guys that were quite happy to give it FTP today, do you think they would give it FTP if some mental bastard would punch their granny in the face every time they did it?”
You really can’t argue with that.
——————————————————————————————————————————-
Brilliant! Says it all! Even when their right their wrong!
Brenda, psychologists claim it takes 21 consecutive times to form a habit, and equally, 21 without to break the habit……your SSB habit……… come on you know you can, steer clear for March and life will seem so much better 😉
Brenda says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 17:18
4 0 Rate This
Gordon Dalziel hang your head in shame it’s only at Berwick this happens it’s pretend sevco supporters who only attend the
Berwick v sevco games and don’t go to any other games ever sad deluded individual. SSB get rid
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No, I think he’s got a point. It must be those same English interlopers that ruined the old club’s good name at Manchester and the like.
The sooner we achieve independence and annex Berwick, the sooner we can protect the good name of The Rangers Football Club.
I’ve got that right… haven’t I?
Another quote from follow follow, I see they still don’t do irony
“It’s f*cking ridiculous. I mean if they were really that offended by TBB then why not go for us after Queens Park at Hampden?
This stinks. “
I know am gonna get shit for this but as i am watching the game the some of the songs that i can here are coming through are as clear as day and are just going to get the club into more shit with more fines. We already get shit from all corners as it is without this shit.
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Go and watch the rugby then.
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Fuck off! Singing has been brilliant so far. Well done lads…fuck the armchair handwringers
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i dont get offended by anti scum singing and if you do there is always an off button
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Was cringing a bit at the ACAB chant
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It’s the SFL, it won’t harm us at all. We’re not playing in a UEFA competition.
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Some people don’t care about the trouble the club will get into, that’s been made perfectly clear many times, shouldn’t be a surprise!
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This thread ain’t gonna go down well but some of our songs are embarrassing. It’s fustrating because when we keep it about rangers the atmosphere is second to none, but joining the ycv, fuck bobby sands, clap your hands for neil lennon, we’ll be watching england so will you etc…. it’s cringeworthy. It’s ironic actually, the same posters who’ll defend the embarrassing chants are the same ones to post “get this hsite out the bears den” when timmy related posts crop up.
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Right big yin…lets see what trouble it gets us in….. It wont get us into trouble ffs….MAN UP!
—
FTP
—
This attitude that the songs are more important than the club is disgusting.
We have CG out there fighting a PR battle and we hand our enemies the ammunition to hurt us and some here think that’s fine & dandy.
These songs are for the dark ages, what the fuck has ‘No Pope of Rome’ got to do with supporting the club??
It’s fucking stupidity, that’s what it is.
TBO/UB constantly complain about how the police (focus) constantly target them, well those songs are the reason behind it and if they keep singing them then they deserve to be targeted because I don’t want those songs or people who sing them anywhere near the club.
Singing those songs does nothing but hurt the image of the club, we are seeking investment, who would invest in a club with a PR image of sectarianism.?
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Our fans have been terrific today atmosphere is great and you wouldnt know there were any Berwick fans there today, laughed when the commemtator apologised for the ‘bad language’ thats not bad language
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lol, he said sorry right after the “ye can stick yer fucking camera up yer arse” chant mate.
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Did he? I thought he was talking about the paedo chant
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Guys, careful what you post in here- remember focus regularly monitor the forum.
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Shut this shite mate. Singing loyalist songs is not a fucking crime,
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Fans have been class, we only got in to trouble about singing before when we had a spineless c*nt of an owner who wouldn’t defend us. Any other football club can sing whatever songs they want and so should we!
.
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I will pay you a return taxi to go and ask them to stop
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Haha, I nearly pissed myself laughing at the craig burley song
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The catholic church is attacked daily and rightly so when they cover up child abuse, is this what people are getting uppity with
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We will sing what we fukin want watp
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With the boycott recently, people have been talking a lot about going along with the club’s wishes. The club continually requests that fans do not sing these songs, those fans should keep their traps shut.
—
Yes, singing “FTP and the Vatican” and “f*%# bobby sands, he’s deed!” Is part of our culture isn’t it…
—
The way I see it, if this people want a stop to what they call “sectarian singing” then they had better tackle the cause of it – which is the culture of pro-Irish terrorism (sometimes known as F*nianism) infesting this land, or do they delude themselves that it’s going to go unopposed?
—
Och, that’s enough, You get the idea.
bobferris70 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 16:28
7 0 Rate This
Excuse my ignorance but who was the Celtic official at Berwick
today?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No idea, but I assume he/she will report the full extent of the songbook in his/her masters Daily Record. 😉
McCoist doing his ‘Arsene Wenger’ impersonation then… 🙄
Would be interesting to know if the 2 reported arrests where made before – or after – the ESPN apology live on air.
Or am I just being cynical as usual?
angus1983 says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:05
0 0 Rate This
~~~~~~~~~~
It just shows to go that there really are Rangers fans that rail against the sectarian sh*t and only want to support a football club. If only enough of them could attain a position of influence within the club. Or even without.
Spiers is completely off his rocker! I can’t believe the way he is claiming on Sportsound Extra the sevco rangers have been singing sectarian songs at one game this year.
“Rangers have gone forwards, and Celtic have gone backwards on chanting.” Spiers is crass in his defence of the sevcorangers.
Its all getting a good analysis on Sportsound extra
My sources* tell me that bomber has considered his position and tendered his resignation after a world record five hours at the helm of Dundee.
*Twitter
redetin says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:20
dear god did speirs really say that ?? thats some world class idiocy !! he must want jims old job bad !!
csihampden says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 16:10
Re: SFA should be handling Rangers enquiry and not SPL
————————————————————————
Thank you for your very detailed response to my post in response to your post in response to my post to another poster. I appreciate everything you have said and the time and care you have obviously taken in formulating your reply.
However I’m afraid that you have still failed IMO to explain the appeal mechanism which would be used if the SFA investigated Rangers. It is not enought to say that because the Scottish Legal System has a highly structured appeal system for both civil and criminal cases that the SFA should have the same.
The Scottish Legal System has an existing clearly defined and understood legal appeal system with various stages to ensure that appeals can move through the system and be decided independently, on their merit, at each stage.
The SFA does not have that structure and doesn’t need to have it because it isn’t the Scottish Justice Sytem but merely a football authority. It is always open for a football club to ask for a judicial review of an SFA/SPL/SFL decision and we have already seen that happen.
I think it worth remembering that Justice must not only be done but be seen to be done. As a Celtic supporter, if we were in Rangers shoes, I would be screaming from the rooftops if the SFA had gathered the evidence, set up the tribunal, ran it and then, if Celtic were found guilty, were also in charge of the appeal.
We can all get lost in techicalities but I think it is important not to lose sight of basic fairness never mind acting within the law as it exists and not as how we might wish it to be to suit particular circumstances.
redetin says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:20
2 0 Rate This
Spiers is completely off his rocker! I can’t believe the way he is
claiming on Sportsound Extra the sevco rangers have been
singing sectarian songs at one game this year.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not being a Sevco regular, is it possible that this really is the first instance of 2013?
I know it sounds implausible, but it could have happened. Anyone?
Does make you wonder?….the Sevco crowd, (and Rangers in the past) are allowed to sing whatever they want………they step one foot out of Scotland and ESPN make it an issue, Northumberland Polis make it an issue, and without a hint of irony the BBC pundits begin hand-wringing in disgust……………….after decades of saying **** all!
arabest1
GD makes me laugh most of the time because he is an idiot with a microphone but Jim D really should have stepped in and saved him from himself today 🙂 When I said ‘hang your head in shame’ I forgot momentarily that the ‘peepil’ have no shame, no morals, no scruples, need I go on??
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Jim Spence saying similar on the wireless.
Northumbria police making it clear that legislation covers away support in England/Europe on BBC just now. Copper was from Gateshead, asked if he had this problem when policing games in North East England. “No”. Funny that.
http://angelahaggerty.com/espn-to-alert-police-after-on-air-apology-over-the-rangers-fans-racist-and-sectarian-chanting-during-live-broadcast/
Araminta Moonbeam QC says:
Saturday, February 23, 2013 at 18:22
My sources* tell me that bomber has considered his position and tendered his resignation after a world record five hours at the helm of Dundee.
*Twitter
__________________
2007: Leroy Rosenior left after 10 minutes from Torquay United, tho’ I can’t mind if he walked or was pushed.
Brown himself was Dumbarton manager for all of 3 hours, then left for Clyde.
I thought Brown lasted a day at Dumbarton, so he’s actually done quite well to hold onto the Dens Patk hot seat for this long then…
Dumbarton dodged a bullet. I was sure Brown was trying to run Clyde into the ground. Still not sure who would gain from that, though. His bullying of the club website interviewer was his last act before departing. The interview is probably still available to listen to on the official website (expletives bleeped out). Nice guy.