The recent revelations of a potential winding up order being served on Rangers Newco certainly does have a sense of “deja vu all over again” for the average reader of this blog.
It reminds me of an episode of the excellent Western series Alias Smith & Jones. The episode was called The Posse That Wouldn’t Quit. In the story, the eponymous anti-heroes were being tracked by a particularly dogged group of law-men whom they just couldn’t shake off – and they spent the entire episode trying to do just that. In a famous quote, Thaddeus Jones, worn out from running, says to Joshua Smith, “We’ve got to get out of this business!”
The SFM has been trying since its inception to widen the scope and remit of the discussion and debate on the blog. Unsuccessfully. Like the posse that wouldn’t quit, Rangers are refusing to go away as a story. With the latest revelations, I confided in my fellow mods that perhaps we too should get out of this business. I suspect that, even if we did, this story would doggedly trail our paths until it wears us all down.
The fact that the latest episode of the Rangers saga has sparked off debate on this blog may even confirm the notion subscribed to by Rangers fans that TSFM is obsessed with their club. However even they must agree that the situation with regard to Rangers would be of interest to anyone with a stake in Scottish Football; and that they themselves must be concerned by the pattern of events which started over a decade ago and saw the old club fall into decline on a trajectory which ended in liquidation.
But let me enter into a wee discussion which doesn’t merely trot out the notion of damage done to others or sins against the greater good, but which enters the realm of the damage done to one of the great institutions of world sport, Rangers themselves.
David Murray was regarded by Rangers fans as a hero. His bluster, hubris and (as some see it) arrogant contempt for his competitors afforded him a status as a champion of the cause as long as it was underpinned by on-field success.
The huge pot of goodwill he possessed was filled and topped-up by a dripping tap of GIRUY-ness for many years beyond the loss of total ascendency that his spending (in pursuit of European success) had achieved, and only began to bottom out around the time the club was sold to Craig Whyte. In retrospect, it can be seen that the damage that was done to the club’s reputation by the Murray ethos (not so much a Rangers ethos as a Thatcherite one) and reckless financial practice is now well known.
Notwithstanding the massive blemish on its character due to its employment policies, the (pre-Murray) Rangers ethos portrayed a particularly Scottish, perhaps even Presbyterian stoicism. It was that of a conservative, establishment orientated, God-fearing and law-abiding institution that played by the rules. It was of a club that would pay its dues, applied thrift and honesty in its business dealings, and was first to congratulate rivals on successes (witness the quiet dignity of John Lawrence at the foot of the aircraft steps with an outstretched hand to Bob Kelly when Celtic returned from Lisbon).
If Murray had dug a hole for that Rangers, Craig Whyte set himself up to fill it in. No neo-bourgeois shirking of responsibilities and duty to the public for him; his signature was more pre-war ghetto, hiding behind the couch until the rent man moved along to the next door. Whyte just didn’t pay any bills and with-held money that was due to be passed along to the treasury to fund the ever more diminished public purse. Where Murray’s Rangers had been regarded by the establishment and others as merely distasteful, Whyte’s was now regarded as a circus act, and almost every day of his tenure brought more bizarre and ridiculous news which had Rangers fans cringing, the rest laughing up their sleeve, and Bill Struth birling in his grave.
The pattern was now developing in plain sight. Murray promised Rangers fans he would only sell to someone who could take the club on, but he sold it – for a pound – to a guy whose reputation did not survive the most cursory of inspection. Whyte protested that season tickets had not been sold in advance, that he used his own money to buy the club. Both complete fabrications. Yet until the very end of Whyte’s time with the club, he, like Murray still, was regarded as hero by a fan-base which badly wanted to believe that the approaching car-crash could be avoided.
Enter Charles Green. Having been bitten twice already, the fans’ first instincts were to be suspicious of his motives. Yet in one of history’s greatest ironic turnarounds, he saw off the challenge of real Rangers-minded folk (like John Brown and Paul Murray) and their warnings, and by appealing to what many regard as the baser instincts of the fan-base became the third hero to emerge in the boardroom in as many years. The irony of course is that Green himself shouldn’t really pass any kind of Rangers sniff-test; personal, sporting, business or cultural; and yet there he is the spokesman for 140 years of the aspirations of a quarter of the country’s fans.
To be fair though, what else could Rangers fans do? Green had managed (and shame on the administration process and football authorities for this) to pick up the assets of the club for less (nett) than Craig Whyte and still maintained a presence in the major leagues.
If they hadn’t backed him only the certainty of doom lay before them. It was Green’s way or the highway in other words – and speaking of words, his sounded mighty fine. But do the real Rangers minded people really buy into it all?
First consider McCoist. I do not challenge his credentials as a Rangers minded man, and his compelling need to be an effective if often ineloquent spokesman for the fans. However, according to James Traynor (who was then acting as an unofficial PR advisor to the Rangers manager), McCoist was ready to walk in July (no pun intended) because he did not trust Green. The story was deliberately leaked, to undermine Green, by both Traynor and McCoist. McCoist also refused for a long period of time to endorse the uptake of season books by Rangers fans, even went as far as to say he couldn’t recommend it.
So what changed? Was it a Damascene conversion to the ways of Green, or was it the 250,000 shares in the new venture that he acquired. Nothing improper or unethical – but is it idealism? Is it fighting for the cause?
Now think Traynor. I realise that can be unpleasant, but bear with me.
Firstly, when he wrote that story on McCoist’s resignation, (and later backed it up on radio claiming he had spoken to Ally before printing the story), he was helping McCoist to twist Green’s arm a little. Now, and I’m guessing that Charles didn’t take this view when he saw the story in question, Green thinks that Traynor is a “media visionary”?
Traynor also very publicly, in a Daily Record leader, took the “New Club line” and was simultaneously contemptuous of Green.
What happened to change both their minds about each other? Could it have been (for Green) the PR success of having JT on board and close enough to control, and (for Traynor) an escape route for a man who had lost the battle with own internal social media demons?
Or, given both McCoist’s and Traynor’s past allegiance to David Murray, is it something else altogether?
Whatever it is, both Traynor and McCoist have started to sing from a totally different hymn sheet to Charles Green since the winding up order story became public. McCoist’s expert étude in equivocation at last Friday’s press conference would have had the Porter in Macbeth slamming down the portcullis (now there’s an irony). He carefully distanced himself from his chairman and ensured that his hands are clean. Traynor has been telling one story, “we have an agreement on the bill”, and Green another, “we are not paying it”.
And what of Walter Smith? At first, very anti-Charles Green, he even talked about Green’s “new club”. Then a period of silence followed by his being co-opted to the board and a “same club” statement. Now in the face of the damaging WUP story, more silence. Hardly a stamp of approval on Green’s credentials is it?
Rangers fans would be right to be suspicious of any non-Rangers people extrapolating from this story to their own version of Armageddon, but shouldn’t they also reserve some of that scepticism for Green and Traynor (neither are Rangers men, and both with only a financial interest in the club) when they say “all is well” whilst the real Rangers man (McCoist) is only willing to say “as far as I have been told everything is well”
As a Celtic fan, it may be a fair charge to say that I don’t have Rangers best interests at heart, but I do not wish for their extinction, nor do I believe that one should ignore a quarter of the potential audience for our national game. Never thought I’d hear myself say this, but apart from one (admittedly mightily significant) character defect, I can look at the Rangers of Struth and Simon, Gillick and Morton, Henderson and Baxter, and Waddell and Lawrence (and God help me even Jock Wallace) with fondness and a degree of nostalgia.
I suspect most Rangers fans are deeply unhappy about how profoundly their club has changed. To be fair, my own club no longer enchants me in the manner of old. As sport has undergone globalisation, everything has changed. Our relationship to our clubs has altered, the business models have shifted, and the aspirations of clubs is different from that of a generation ago. It has turned most football clubs into different propositions from the institutions people of my generation grew up supporting, but Rangers are virtually unrecognisable.
The challenge right now for Rangers fans is this. How much more damage will be done to the club’s legacy before this saga comes to an end?
And by then will it be too late to do anything about it?
Most people on this blog know my views about the name of Green’s club. I really don’t give a damn because for me it is not important. I do know, like Craig Whyte said, that in the fullness of time there will be a team called Rangers, playing football in a blue strip at Ibrox, and in the top division in the country.
I understand that this may be controversial to many of our contributors, but I hope that this incarnation of Rangers is closer to that of Lawrence and Simon than to Murray and Souness.
OT but I see the ref (Celtic v Juve ) game is having an equally successful night tonight!! Wonder if UEFA / FIFA will listen if Barca complain? Sorry ask for an explanation 🙂
Quiet Night tonight folks, is everyone away looking for the whereabouts of Vincent Lunny? (Scottish hide and seek champion for February 2013) 🙂
Maybe just the calm before the storm……
neepheid says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 19:46
There’s got to be more to it than that. Something’s going on behind the scenes, I don’t know what, but it’s time the Dundee supporters used their 52% shareholding to put their CEO Mr Gardiner in his place- and that place isn’t Dens Park.
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Watch this space, gardiner is a sneaky git, all i can say at the moment
hope your right Palacio67
Courtesy of CQN:
“While not denying the proposition put to him by the Respondents that ‘there’s an overarching contract with each of the footballers, consisting of the written contract and the side letters’, Mr Red maintained that ‘it’s our view that the side-letter or the letters of undertaking do not need to be registered or lodged with the SFA’ (Day 3/31-32).”
So, in evidence, Rangers witness Mr Red, did not deny the proposition that there was an overarching contract with footballers consisting of the declared contract and side-letters, but “it’s our view” that side-letters did not need to be lodged with the lodge SFA. Ms Poon suggests a fair conclusion is the side-letters were “actively concealed” as they could be “incriminating evidence”
Were any of the MIH/RFC witnesses asked WHY they thought the side letters need not be lodged?
Can anyone help me with this?
Well done Stirling Albion 🙂
Brenda,
The RM Bears are not happy, eh, Bears. Openly questioning AM management ability on their match thread. I think a new multi million pound worldwide record breaking shirt deal may be required quickly?
bangordub
When are they happy? Lost track of the hours but it’s lots and lots and Mr Green still very quiet tho 🙂 😉 will the strip really be orange?? Sevco satsumas, orlit oranges, holding company clementines, mccoists mandarins, ticketus tangerines, right time for bed niteynite all let’s hope for a more interesting day tomorrow 🙂
broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 00:23
Courtesy of CQN:
“While not denying the proposition put to him by the Respondents that ‘there’s an overarching contract with each of the footballers, consisting of the written contract and the side letters’, Mr Red maintained that ‘it’s our view that the side-letter or the letters of undertaking do not need to be registered or lodged with the SFA’ (Day 3/31-32).”
So, in evidence, Rangers witness Mr Red, did not deny the proposition that there was an overarching contract with footballers consisting of the declared contract and side-letters, but “it’s our view” that side-letters did not need to be lodged with the lodge SFA. Ms Poon suggests a fair conclusion is the side-letters were “actively concealed” as they could be “incriminating evidence”
Were any of the MIH/RFC witnesses asked WHY they thought the side letters need not be lodged?
Can anyone help me with this?
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You could also have asked Mr Red on what basis they formed “the view” that the side letters didn’t have to be lodged with the SFA. Using language like that suggests they took advice on the matter separately but not from the governing body.
On the other hand perhaps “informally” a former employee of the club said it was all ok as that was how it worked when he was in charge of such matters.
Brenda says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 00:36
Well done Stirling Albion 🙂
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And Cowdenbeath Rangers too.
borussiabeefburg says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 18:40
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Can you give us any more on this, borussiabeefburg? And what’s the link with MPSG?
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan says:
Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 16:43
I have no idea why anyone would give any credence or weight to the article that appears in the name of Adrian Durham— none whatsoever.
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Because it appears in the Daily Mail. Not being a Talksport listener I, for one, had never heard of the guy before so had no reason to approach his piece with preconceptions.
To the general public, the very fact that he is writing in a national newspaper gives his piece a certain weight. Yes, it’s the Daily Mail – which has a certain reputation – but even so.
Adrian Durham – the buffoon’s thinking man.
Daily Mail – editorial line to spread fear amongst anyone who thinks that they don’t know their place in society.
Put the two together and what do you get? A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
broadswordcallingdannybhoy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 00:23
Were any of the MIH/RFC witnesses asked WHY they thought the side letters need not be lodged? Can anyone help me with this?
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The only thing I know that has been publicly released is the Decision (inc minority one) and if that doesn’t answer the question I would assume the info you require will be in the verbatim transcript or possibly in the written evidence submitted which was voluminous I believe.
So I doubt if anyone outwith the parties has the info or access to it to be able to answer your question. It’s possible that no one asked the question anyway because it might be of importance to the footballing issues but less so to the HMRC case.
To be fair to the FTT, they were considering a tax issue, football governence was way out of their jurisdiction.
While we are Waiting for Godot, does any one else see the potentional irony, in the possibility that the two SPL minnows scuppering reconstruction?
Ross County seem to be agin the plans, and, the Inverness manager is vehemently against them, if he can persuade his board, then the plan is dead.
The law of inintended consequences can deliver some painful lessons. ( This may also explain why, as i recall it, there was no formal vote taken at the SPL meeting)
scapaflow14 says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 11:21
3 0 Rate This
To be fair to the FTT, they were considering a tax issue, football governence was way out of their jurisdiction.
While we are Waiting for Godot, does any one else see the potentional irony, in the possibility that the two SPL minnows scuppering reconstruction?
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These “minnows” (Ross County and ICT) are currently second and third in the SPL.
neepheid says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 12:13
Indeed they are, my tongue was firmly in my cheek! However, the rules were put in place to protect Rangers and Celtic, lets not try and pretend otherwise Now because of those rules, two of the smallest clubs may take a wrecking ball to this mighty edifice that the big boys have spent so much time constructing. Ain’t karma a bitch?
SCOTTISH PREMIER LEAGUE
PRESS RELEASE
27 February 2013 For Immediate Release
COMMISSION DECISION TO BE ISSUED ON 28 FEBRUARY
The written decision of the Commission appointed in relation to RFC 2012 Plc (now in liquidation) and Rangers FC and chaired by Lord Nimmo Smith will be published on Thursday 28 February at 12.00 noon.
– Ends –
CONTACT DETAILS
Scottish Premier League
0141 620 4140
LNS decision to be made public tomorrow at noon.
Chris McLaughlin confirming on BBC that LNS findings will be published tomorrow 28th Feb @ midday. High noon ?
And just when you thought things had gone quiet 🙂
Thats will be another afternoon’s work lost then 🙁
Wondering if anyone has been given a looksy before publication.
Will be interesting to see any quotes or comments given out later today give hints to the outcome.
CG knows the outcome now……….wonder if we can expect a statement?
charlie was telling the truth for once
28th feb
Absolutely correct. The biggest insult in the old SPL structure was not the winners pile relative to the rest – after all they had won – it was the apparently generous 2nd place reward when looked at relative to 3-12th. It is not therefore entirely co-incidental that the two teams finishing 1st and 2nd in year 1 continued to do so for years 2-20 or however long the charade went on for. (not that it was the only factor to be clear, but a significant contributor, almost certainly).
The debate now for the team finishing 2nd, be they highland, lowland or whatever is if they take the entirely mercenary stance of “This 2nd place prize pot is truly abhorrent, but we’ll have it just the same!” Who could blame them? Two like minded teams (not necessarily first placed celtic remember) and yes, democratically the restructure will be dead in the water, until Murdoch speaks of course.
Interesting times.
Andy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 12:53
Let the games begin …
hmmmm, will Sevco need to make some kind of statement to the AIM/Stock Market tonight ahead of trading tomorrow – this is clearly something that could impact share price. Or will the market just have to deal with it once it’s announced?
So, the LNS report is to be made public tomorrow. It will have already been made known to the SPL. We should therefore assume that Doncaster has briefed his co-conspirators along the corridor in Hampden. Don’t tell me that Ogilvie would not give Green the heads up on the commission’s findings. Why did Sir Charles know the date of the commission’s publication before anyone else? Could it be that our corrupt football administrators and Sevco are already beavering away at a damage-control solution? No wonder there has been a deafening silence from both Hampden and Ibrox in recent days.
just to get you in the mood for how the SFA view registration issues – todays news story couldn’t have been better timed!
Published on Wednesday 27 February 2013 12:01
ONE of the Capital’s most successful boys’ football clubs has been thrown out of two major cup competitions – including the under-16s Scottish Cup – over a “clerical error”.
Hutchison Vale FC coaches said they were shocked when the team was ejected from both the national and South East region cups by the Scottish Youth Football Association (SYFA) after a keyboard “slip” led to one of their players being registered incorrectly.
They said the player was accidently registered for the 2011-12 season,instead of the current one, when details for the 15-year-old were submitted online.
Its understood the boy had been properly registered by the club since the age of five
The Capital team – semi-finalists in last year’s SYFA Cup and among the favourites to triumph in 2013 – had progressed to the quarter finals of the national trophy.
Hutchison Vale coaches said the match was handed to rival city side Tynecastle, after SYFA bosses opted to “punish” the team, and said crucial league points could also be deducted.
Head coach Anwar Thabet said: “This is draconian and unfair. I admit, I ticked the wrong box on the registration form. But to make all of the boys suffer for this one mistake is outrageous.
“They are devastated.”
The father of the player involved, who did not want to be named, was too upset to speak at length but said: “We are as gutted as everyone else.”
Mr Thabet, Hutchison Vale head coach for the last three years, revealed the error came to light during a cup match just under a month ago – which they won 9-1 – when a complaint was lodged over registration of his player.
He revealed the player was “vilified” and “given a hard time at school” when news of the blunder emerged.
“He feels he was the one to let the team down even though he was totally innocent,” said Mr Thabet.
“I wrote to the SYFA, held my hands up and said, yes it was my fault, my mistake, but I hoped common sense would prevail and that the boys wouldn’t be punished.
“I think they’re scared that if they’re seen to be lenient with us, the other teams will try this in future.
“But this was an unwitting error. We have guys who are in the national under-16s squad and guys training with teams such as Aberdeen and Cowdenbeath.”
The SYFA decision was also condemned by players and their parents.
Team captain Jack Philp, 15, an S4 pupil at Currie Community High, said: “We are pretty distraught about the whole thing.
“We just have to move on but it’s hard to take.”
Jack’s father, Steven, 45, said: “The boys will be disillusioned with the game, the team, the sport. They’ve worked hard all season.”
No-one was available for comment at the SYFA.
PIPELINE FOR TALENT
HUTCHISON Vale has produced a stream of football stars since it was established in 1940.
Among the team members to achieve prominence is Manchester United and Scotland midfielder Darren Fletcher, spotted by Old Trafford scout Andy Perry while playing in a tournament for Hutchison Vale.
Gary Caldwell, formerly with Celtic, now at Wigan Athletic and a Scotland international, spent a year with the club when he was 15.
Kenny Miller played for Hutchison Vale with Gary Mason – who played 300 times for Dunfermline – and Kenny Milne, later of Hearts and Falkirk.
Miller distinguished himself at Hibs, Rangers, Celtic, Wolves, and for Scotland.
For me it’s not that Yorkie was telling the truth for once,it’s that he knew in advance.
Remember when the FTT was due? Smith, Souness and Murray came out of the wardrobe because they knew the result.Is that the reason Yorkie went East,?to formulate a plan with his backers to get out as quickly as possible OR the result is favourable and he’s been told to keep his mouth shut.
After everything that has gone on i would not place a bet on the outcome.
Without fear or favour is all that ALL of the fans want,here’s hoping.
So Charles knew when the decision would be announced.
Does he also know the outcome?
Not sure if his recent silence is a sign of being found guilty or not guilty.
Roll on tomorrow noon
More importantly who told CG when the announcement would be made, who leaked it? More corruption imo. Someone needs to asked Charlie how he knew, any churnalist up for it?
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 12:58
Yes, the interested parties will have the result prior to publication.
Just a thought, the result might not be what we think. I wouldn’t take silence from Rangers are fear. It may be that they simply want to see who is out there howling for blood, before the “not guilty” verdict is delivered.
I’ve learned my lesson from the FTTT. All will be revealed soon enough.
“Pressing need for Scottish clubs to be publicity savvy”
Headline for the opinion piece from David McCarthy in the Daily Record today, he tells us that the real problem is Scotland is that the clubs get free advertising but don’t repay the favour. Apparently his paper making money from stories is classified as free advertising, maybe he wants to go to Tesco just now and ask them to pay for all that free “horse meat” advertising they got in the last weeks.
He goes on to inform us internet bambots that there is no decline in the Scottish Newspaper Industry by telling us how many papers are sold every day, unfortunately, true to form, he does not supply the statistics showing us that figure is way down from 12 months or 24 months ago.
Now if you started a new publication and had let’s say 100k copies sold weekly after 6 months in business, I would say you are doing very well considering you might have a relatively small operation with overheads not exceeding running costs.
But if you are a well-established organisation who are setup (Infrastructure, salary etc..) to sell 1m copies per day and are down to 0.25m per day then whichever way you want to spin that, it is a decline and a massive one!
Specific clubs or individuals are mentioned as being uncooperative, so surprises there that Celtic, Hearts and Killie are given some stick.
To me, this piece is every bit as negative and cynical as the Jim Traynor piece where he told the world (or at least 250k) why he was leaving, he is having a go at other forms of media and blaming others for the obvious failings within his job, that of his employers and indeed, his whole industry.
And I quote: “Some of them are even journalists who are now so out of touch with reality that no newspaper would employ them”…. Well I am not (and you could not afford me anyway) but I am a consumer and I choose not to buy your paper!
madbhoy24941 says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 13:21
The latest figures I can find-
http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2012/news/circulation-figures-fall-for-scottish-papers/
And I’m guessing that the figures haven’t improved over the last 6 months.
neepheid says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 13:34
Well, if we are to believe Mr McCarthy (and why wouldn’t we ?) he says ‘around’ quarter of a million people buy his rag daily. Based on the figures of 268,738 from October 2011 that’s a drop of approx 18,500 or roughly 7.5% in only 4 months. In any other sales industry these figures would be considered ‘freefall’. That’s what happens when you sell crap.
Oops, I meant October 2012, obviously. Ahem !
madbhoy24941 says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 13:21
maybe he wants to go to Tesco just now and ask them to pay for all that free “horse meat” advertising they got in the last weeks
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Celtic may also wish to shower him with thanks for branding their first team squad as THUGS AND THIEVES and also for telling the club to SHUT UP AND GET ON WITH IT when unhappy about being sent to Ibrox less than 72 hours after a UEFA Cup semi final which was in rather a sharp contrast to their canvassing for an extension to the league season in 2008.
Good to see that publication sliding along the gutter in a stream of its own effluent heading for the drain
With typical shrewdness, the RM orcs have come up with a plan to stop titles being removed:
“As people have already said who work at Ibrox we will make a human chain outside Ibrox if they try and take titles.”
Nae bother, eh? All these goons will be daisy-chaining round Greyskull whilst someone in an SPL office simply presses the delete key on a computer. 🙂
(P.S. I never actually noted the “RFC2012(plc) and Rangers FC” bit before.)
Interesting piece by the man with the wee white bricks today. The gist of it being that unless the rangers fans wise up and deal wit the enemy within, whose behaviour is impacting the finances, Mr Green and Mr Kahn may conclude that it is time to apply their world breaking business acumen elsewhere.
It does seem that this former tabloid hack who was frozen out of Ibrox, is now firmly back in the fold. Have their been any personel changes at Ibrox over the last couple of months that might account for this strange occurrence?
I expect nothing in tomorrow’s announcement, other than a complete whitewash.
Green knew that the announcement would come on Feb 28th two weeks ago. I also daresay he knew the verdict at that stage. The SFA have now had two weeks to get the wording “right”.
Mr Salmond said that Rangers were the fabric of Scottish society. Clearly he is wrong. FOOTBALL is the fabric of Scottish society. Tomorrow Scottish football will die if the verdict is as I fear.
bestdressedchicken @ 14:15
Unfortunately I share your expectations!!! But on this occasion I would love to be proved wrong!! Who told CG? after all it’s concerning the oldco/deadco/rfcil absolutely nothing to do with him….or is it 🙂 where is he at the moment? anybody know Ally???
It’s a funny old world,
Almost univeral gloom and gnashing of teeth on the Rangers forums at the prospect of being found giulty, being fined and losing titles
Almost universal gloom and gnashing of teeth on here that they won’t.
Seems the only certainty about tomorrow is that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth!
Brenda says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 14:24
Who told CG? after all it’s concerning the oldco/deadco/rfcil absolutely nothing to do with him….or is it
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See above, Brenda. The investigation was into “RFC 2012 (plc) AND Rangers FC”.
Rangers FC, the famous ethereal entity without legal personality, is being treated like a dog that can be owned by different people who are responsible for it, whether that’s RFC 2012 (plc) or TRFCLtd, or indeed perhaps RIFC.
If you’re the dog’s new owner, you still get trouble if it bit someone’s ankle a few years ago.
Therefore, Mr Green will have an interest.
Not The Huddle Malcontent says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 13:17
Definitely one for SSB….
bestdressedchicken says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 14:15
18 1 Rate This
I expect nothing in tomorrow’s announcement, other than a complete whitewash.
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Have faith it may be a case of Sevco walking the Green Mile.
NTHM @ 13:17
So honest mistakes are not allowed during registration of players 🙂
bawsbustedanatha @ 14:58
SSB probably won’t touch it because they can’t possibly be expected to know all the rules 😉
Expect,anticipate,assume,presume,predict a whitewash….you won’t be disappointed
I’m mentally prepared for tomorrow’s announcement to be minor punishments to RFC (IL) and Sevco. While I don’t doubt the independence of the panel for a minute, the outcome of the FTTT (although it was looking at events from a different perspective) showed that there is enough grey areas for different decisions to be arrived at.
As such, I suspect that a definitive title-stripping punishment will be avoided, despite it being a potential outcome. On strictly moral and ethical grounds, I wish it were otherwise, but what is right is never necessarily the outcome in courts of law or elsewhere, as we all know.
The townsfolk in Scottish football have their very own High Noon tomorrow…so let’s hope that our own ‘marshal’ – Lord Nimmo Smith, has the same determination and fortitude as his movie counterpart. Let’s see him come out with all guns blazing, in his condemnation of RFC and its unpalatable formula for success.
Or do those endings only play out it Hollywood?
Whatever the outcome tomorrow, I suspect that neither TRFC nor non-TRFC fans will be happy !
Whilst the SFA/SPL probably just want all this to go away ASAP, any title stripping could open up a whole new can of worms wrt previous prize money, prior UEFA participation etc, and potentially further legal cases…
I have a horrible feeling – and hope I am way off the mark – that there is enough ‘wiggle’ room for LNS to concoct something which nobody expected – and effectively allow ‘Rangers’ off the hook.
Expecting the worst but hoping for the best.
The one crumb of comfort is that the last time Rangers Oldco found themselves up against a football commission/panel headed by a QC their administrative procedures managed by long serving officers and the behaviour and ‘non action’ of directors were torn to shreds
Hopefully LNS will come to the same conclusion and simply tell it how it is without getting bogged down in legal niceties.
Is it within the remit of LNS to administer punishment or simply to judge culpability i.e if they are found guilty can LNS simply pass the verdict on to the SPL to decide upon punishment. If this is the case then be prepared for a massive dissapointment tomorrow.
It seems that Celtic have turned down the chance to play in Steven Gerrards Testimonial. The match which was scheduled for August would coincide with probable Champions League Qualifiers.
Steven, I know your an avid visitor to the SFM Blog, and I just KNOW Sevco would be more than willing to step in. According to many sources they have an absolutely wonderful support, who seem to save their best behaviour, (along with an entertaining and varied songbook) for matches played in England.
Go on Steven you know it makes sense.
I’ll get my Baton.
StevieBC says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:00
Whatever the outcome tomorrow, I suspect that neither TRFC nor non-TRFC fans will be happy !
Whilst the SFA/SPL probably just want all this to go away ASAP, any title stripping could open up a whole new can of worms wrt previous prize money, prior UEFA participation etc, and potentially further legal cases…
I have a horrible feeling – and hope I am way off the mark – that there is enough ‘wiggle’ room for LNS to concoct something which nobody expected – and effectively allow ‘Rangers’ off the hook.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
With all the evidence thrown up by the Big Tax Case and now in the public domain as regards contract registration I’m not convinced LNS has any “wiggle room”.
I firmly predict a Guilty as Hell verdict with title stripping to follow.
bogsdollox says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:12
StevieBC says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:00
…
I have a horrible feeling – and hope I am way off the mark – that there is enough ‘wiggle’ room for LNS to concoct something which nobody expected – and effectively allow ‘Rangers’ off the hook.
=========================
…I firmly predict a Guilty as Hell verdict with title stripping to follow.
===============================
Whilst I would be happy with ‘Guilty as Hell’ and title stripping, there would be some explaining to do down Govan way…
Here is a gem extracted from RM site today;
“If they strip us of any titles we should just resign from the league tomorrow. I don’t want to play in a corrupt system.” 🙄
bogsdollox says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:12
I can’t see any other result – it has to be guilty. Previous teams that have fallen foul of registration issues have been punished regardless of intent. It is often an honest mistake. Any claim Rangers have that they didn’t know they were in error is irrelevant.
The only possible “out” is if LNS decides the loans were not contractual payments. I don’t see how he can decide this given the evidence available, but I’m not a high court judge so what do I know.
Remember, D&P have still to answer for their lack of cooperation with the enquiry. It will be interesting to see what the result of that is.
bogsdollox says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:12
Have said it until I am blue in the face.
The whole thing comes down at this stage (being that the FTTT is being appealed) to whether or not loans, for that what they are at present, are considered as part of a players contract documention under footballing rules that the SPL/SFA needed to see.
The wriggle room IMHO is that from what I have seen posted here and elsewhere the footballing rules are not written in a manner that fully and comprehensively covers the scenario we are faced with and therefore LNS will have to take a view on a footballing rules loophole. In the abscense of any such concrete rule then he could easily say the loan details did not have to be passed on the the football authorities and therefore on a technicality there is no case to answer.
Now if the UTT say they were not loans but contractural payments then that is a different story but being that will all be after the fact the Rangers defense will simply be that they were acting on good faith based on the advice given at the time and within their understanding of footballing rules therefore were not deliberately concealing the loans from the SPL/SFA. While asking the SPL/SFA for guidance may have been prudent it was not a necessity.
wottpi says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:30
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can see where you’re coming from but the rules you mention talk about “payments” and to my mind these can be contractual or non contractual. The mischief that this particular rule seeks to outlaw is of course back handers etc and therefore there is scope to view its application more widely.
Anyhow – no need for further debate on my part as the thinking of LNS will soon be upon us and I’m concerned about your face getting any bluer.
Futile arguement WOTTPI (which makes it odds on!!).
Ignore the loans. Were the surviving members of the Dodds, Klos and Advocat families due to receive a contractual payment on Daddy’s death just because the Ibrox Pay Masters liked the cut of their jib? Don’t think so.
No the wriggle room is in the poorly worded instruction regarding declaration – that there were payments for footballing services is (should be) beyond doubt. Key detail will be why guidance wasn’t sought (assuming it wasn’t – what a last minute penalty claim that would be!) and the apparent concealment of the payment details in another separate but very relevant enquiry in which the author (albeit in a dissenting minority opinion) specifically flagged up its relevance (of the concealment) in advance of this enquiry starting.
Becasue of that it’ll be guilty, now have 50 lines and don’t do it again or I’ll strip your titles and, and, and, and…… OK actually you’ll know we want do anything so feel free to continuie to abuse our game with our ball to your hearts content!
I would be surprised if the result of the LNS enquiry is announced tomorrow.
I do not believe that CG knows when the result will be published. Given that TRFC have just hired JT to head up corporate communications there is no evidence of a wider propaganda campaign.
I do not believe that LNS would have taken on this particulair job where he had no independence.
In that regard I would imagine that LNS and his two colleagues are the only people who know when the decision will be published. I would imagine that when they are ready to announce they would give some notice to the SPL before laying out their findings.
That would be one of the few protocols that would provide the panel with the level of independence that they require.
Again, why would LNS throw away his reputation over RFC?
This decision will be scrutinized to death. There exists in the public domain the outcomes of the FTTT which in part illustrated the inner workings of the Club. It is hard to ignore the written findings of Dr Poon.
Keep calm and carry on 🙂
LTL,
I’m not sure why you think the result won’t be announced tomorrow. There was a press release today stating it would be announced tomorrow..
wottpi says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:30
In the abscense of any such concrete rule then he could easily say the loan details did not have to be passed on the the football authorities and therefore on a technicality there is no case to answer.
___________________________________________________________________________
They can say they were loans 24/7 for all I care, LNS isn’t covered by tax law.
Any sane person with a relevant amount of common sense know they aren’t loans or shall they ever be paid back. There is no loophole or technicality for them to use as wiggle room.
The above named sane person can clearly see it’s payments for playing football.
I have no idea what evidence was gathered by Harper Macloed, but it was enough to say they had a case to answer. ( Side letters, Maybe)
Whether or not LNS chose to pick through the FTTT or Harper Macleod did, I don’t know.
If they did, there’s enough evidence there to have them bang to rights also.
It’s a big fat plain and simple GUILTY as charged.
If not, then it’s been whitewashed, end of.
Game over for Scottish Football as we know it
finchleyflyer on Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 17:10
Was not aware of the press release re the announcment.
Roll on the decision.
smartbhoy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 17:11
I wouldn’t bet on the guilty verdict. I think we’re all looking at it from a position where we can see the findings of the FTT, and assume that this points to guilt.
I’m not a legal expert, but is there any requirement that they have to take the FTT verdict into account? I’m guessing that LNS must only take into account the evidence submitted, much like in a court case where only the evidence submitted in the court can be used to arrive at a verdict. He may just say ‘Well, these are clearly loans and therefore not subject to these contractual restrictions’, despite the 5 instances that the FTT found. On the other hand, he could go the opposite way and conclude that, despite what the FTT says, ALL 80 or so players were receiving non-declared contractual payments. I suppose all will be revealed tomorrow…..
I suppose it’s a very similar time to awaiting the SFL vote to parachute TRFC into division one.
Andy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 12:53
21 0 Rate This
SCOTTISH PREMIER LEAGUE
PRESS RELEASE
27 February 2013 For Immediate Release
COMMISSION DECISION TO BE ISSUED ON 28 FEBRUARY
The written decision of the Commission appointed in relation to RFC 2012 Plc (now in liquidation) and Rangers FC and chaired by Lord Nimmo Smith will be published on Thursday 28 February at 12.00 noon.
– Ends –
CONTACT DETAILS
Scottish Premier League
0141 620 4140
StevieBC says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 16:23
……………………………………….
Now that was funny….I had a serious belly laugh going on when I read that…
Question….are the parties involved entitled to a pre notification of publication? or could it be they recieve it on the day in question to prevent leaks..
Page 47
http://www.scotprem.com/content/mediaassets/doc/RULES%20EFFECTIVE%203%20DECEMBER%202012.pdf
Page 28
http://www.financeandtaxtribunals.gov.uk/judgmentfiles/j6851/TC02372.pdf
There are two distinct parts to this:
The playing of ineligible players – viewed simply as a technical breach.
The deliberate concealment of players contracts and breach of the rules.
With regard to the offence of playing ineligible players, Lord Nimmo Smith need not worry a jot with regards to the specific meaning or nuances of “agreements providing for payment”
All he has to consider was whether (or not) the Remuneration Trust benefit was contractual. “Where it derived from a (footballer’s) side-letter”, that point was conceded at the FTT(T).
As far as I can tell, the side-letters were non-disclosed elements of the players’ Contracts of Service; therefore the relevant players were automatically not “eligible to Play in Official Matches”.
The only real decision he has to make is what consequences should follow from playing ineligible players and, if he finds evidence that the “offences” were a deliberate deceit, what punishments are available to him.
Will Rangers be found guilty of a technical breach? Almost certainly.
Will they be found guilty of a deliberate deceit? Very possibly.
The consequences of a technical breach are obvious: amendments to official match results, the reassignment of league positions and an order for the repayment of prize-money.
The punishment for a deliberate deceit would almost certainly result in:
-the club being permanently excluded from the SPL
-directors and club executives reported to the SFA as “unfit persons”
-a massive fine
The consequence of any or all of this to the new club will be NIL.
paulmac2 says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 17:29
Question….are the parties involved entitled to a pre notification of publication? or could it be they recieve it on the day in question to prevent leaks..
================================================
C. Green knew the date of verdict release two weeks ago, and has hardly uttered a cheep about anything since. Quite frankly that has to be a worry in my view. How come he knew and who told him? What else does he know about it?
So in essence…according to some SEVCONIANS it would be corrupt for them to be found guilty of corruption..due to the corrupt way they behaved..
Is it me? 😀
For what its worth everyone and their uncle knows that the loans were not loans as everyone else would describe them – they were payments linked to playing football for Rangers.
However the law is often an ass and those who practice, it in many cases,, are asked to throw common sense and decency to the wind.
Call me a cynic but there is plenty money to be made by arguing the toss over things that the man in the street knows is “pure dead wrong by the way”!!
The more complex they can make things and the more thay can argue about it the more money they can screw out the system.
Now I am not saying that there aren’t some matters that are indeed complex and need our best minds to sort things out.
However this one really is simple and as we saw in the FTTT Heidi Poon saw through it with ease but the lawyers screwed it up big time because they couldn’t (or due to all the legal niceties) or wouldn’t see the woods for the trees.
Surely the result of the enquiry would be considered price sensitive on even the AIM, so would it not be wrong if the result of the LNS enquiry is known by anyone, especially by a CEO of a company that has not been in business long enough to produce any accounts? Even if he didn’t act upon such information himself he could pass it on to others. I very much doubt, therefore, that Green knows any more than the rest of us about the result,and could well have just made a reasoned guess as to the date of it’s announcement.
areyouaccusingmeofmendacity says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 17:24
0 0 Rate This
smartbhoy says:
Wednesday, February 27, 2013 at 17:11
I wouldn’t bet on the guilty verdict. I think we’re all looking at it from a position where we can see the findings of the FTT, and assume that this points to guilt.
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I said the exact opposite. Their decision was it was loans 2-1 I said tax law doesn’t cover LNS.
I have no idea if they looked at the FTTT. If they did, they could have cherry-picked parts of it. There’s various statements from RFC’s own counsel that leaves an open goal for LNS to tap the ball over the line.
Again I shall repeat till I’m blue in the face 🙂 They’re GUILTY and anyone who’s neutral and has a little amount of common sense can see that.
If they’re found not guilty, it’s a WHITEWASH.
If they don’t at least face the consequences of their actions and aren’t at least stripped of titles by the SPL/SFA, it’s a WHITEWASH.
RFC either defrauded an insurance company (The Klos injury claim) or the EBT payments are contractual and part of his pay. I would strongly suspect that RFC cannot legally claim the insurance on monies that they may or may not have given to Klos as a “loan” while he was injured. Simple. Guilty as hell. Anything else is a cover up.