Or, a story of how and why Mr Lawwell consigned resolution 12 to the deepest grass;
by Finloch
“It’s about history and being neighbours”, young Elisabeth said to her mum.
And it has to be done for tomorrow, Elisabeth said.
“I’m supposed to ask in an in-person interview about what life was like where an older neighbour grew up and what was life like when the neighbour was my age.
It’s not my fault that we’re new here and haven’t spoken to our old, next door neighbour yet and don’t even know his name.
“I’ve an idea her mother said, why don’t you make it up.
Pretend you’re asking him questions and then write down the answers you think he’d give”.
“It’s supposed to be true”, Elisabeth said. “It’s for News”.
“They’ll never know”, her mother said. “Just make it up.
The real news is always made up anyway”.
I was lucky enough to catch Ali Smith at the Edinburgh Book Festival.
I was part of a very diverse audience and unusually for this kind of event nobody in the sold-out Charlotte Square tent had a Scooby about what she was going to share with us.
Most would have been expecting a reading or two from her recent short story collection, Public Library, about the cynical, thoughtless and almost silent and unpublicised demise of Libraries up and down our land.
Our libraries.
Our land.
Ali is always value for money though and was amazing, reading from her as yet unpublished “Autumn” book, the first she said of a four-book series.
As I listened to her, I was also thinking and juggling around at the back of my mind about what I was going to write for this blog, having been asked for my thoughts, as a non-involved, non-Celtic supporter, on how I see the Resolution 12 situation.
Well Ali’s words stung like a bee and proved quite inspirational. The wisdom and clarity in her new books is highly relevant to all of us who care about Scottish Football and Resolution 12 including Mr Lawwell, Mr Doncaster, Mr Regan, Mr Petrie and us too – the real stakeholders.
Ali also shared with us a Bernard Maclaverty insight from when he once visited a school as part of (I think) a Scottish creative writing initiative and in the course of his talk asked some youngsters,
“What is fiction” ?
Someone put their hand up and said “Please Sir, it’s made up truth”.
Near the end Ali also got to talking about post Brexit Britain and used the chaos to ask the bigger question.
“Why do we never seem to have real debates about anything and why in any “debate” we might see or read that there never seems to be room for to-ing and fro-ing on points because everyone seems to have already made their minds up and just wants to maintain their status quos, achieve their own personal agendas or to steamroller us all to their point of view”.
“People in power seem to be genuinely scared of honest debates”, she said.
She asked how without more real discussions and insightful and open minded debates can any of us (and the debaters themselves too) learn because without that we will just get more of what we’ve had.
And that’s not good enough.
So thanks Ali I’m going to combine these three things from your hour along with two personal career experiences and review Mr Lawwell and his company’s reaction to the bona fide Resolution 12 raised by some of his shareholders a few years ago.
(My career experiences were as the head of a small, and treated as unimportant, company that was part of a worldwide group of companies run (badly) out of the US; and my time as head of a trade association that had two very dominant and troublesome members).
My Five Insights to review Resolution 12 are.
- Some people think “made up news is fine” and feed us all with it all the time.
- Don’t expect real discussions or debates about anything in your club. No two way dialogues, except from those about money once a year.
- “Made up Truths” become gospel not to be challenged.
- The people running the club know they are smarter and more important than any of their minority or remote stakeholders.
- All decisions that really matter in football or indeed in any business are pre-agreed and never discussed in the open.
So now to what I think of Resolution 12.
My starting point is to say this. It is wrong to see or to discuss Mr Lawwell and Resolution 12 as being about the awarding of a license – or the boardroom processes since The Requisitioners first raised it.
Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.
In the late Murray days at Ibrox and in the early Whyte ownership period there had been rumours, and I’m certain deep and meaningful business discussions between the heads of the SFA and SPL and their key committee members.
You can be sure that the SFA, SPL, Celtic and others were all watching the post Murray Rangers situation closely, and the new regime at Ibrox and related financial stuff would have been the talk of the exclusive football steamies.
Despite what some Celtic fans believe, the reality has always been that while Rangers may have dominated (just) all things SFA and SPL, nothing was ever done without the knowledge of and input from the green side of the Old Firm business model.
Sadly, I’d suggest Requisition 12 was history before it was even raised.
Scotland’s unique, idiosyncratic, religio-political old firm business model was not just about driving the individual Glasgow teams to their leviathan duopoly in Scottish football. We all knew (because we were told so) that it was also the commercial bedrock of the business that is Scottish Football.
And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.
Put simply, Regan who was quite new, was convinced at the time – and still is absolutely certain – that the SFA and Scottish Football needed a dominant Celtic and Rangers, and he also personally needed and needs the support of their CEO’s.
Doncaster too was convinced that the SPL needed Celtic and Rangers arch rivalry with all it entails, delivering TV monies and maximizing his bonuses. He too also personally required and requires the support of the Old Firm CEO’s.
Lawwell the astute numbers man, under a constant watchful eye from Dublin, needed Rangers to ensure his business plan did not develop un-fillable black holes.
And yes, for a while David Murray thought his club was bigger than the Old Firm, but he and his ego had moved on when all this stuff happened.
Importantly, Peter was also one of a small influential football group who effectively controlled the actions of Regan and Doncaster. Nothing strategic would ever have been done by either of them without his involvement and input. That doesn’t mean he necessarily knew all the detail about Craig’s UEFA license shenanigans but he’d have had his suspicions.
And you know something, – at a squeeze I think he and Desmond might have thought keeping a Rangers team alive (for its future dependable revenue streams) was maybe even worth one season’s lost Champions League status.
There is no doubt in my mind that in 2011 Peter and the Celtic Board were worried but supportive of and committed to keeping the Rangers company alive.
Looking back I don’t know when Lawwell and Desmond actually discovered de facto that Rangers should not have been awarded the license.
Was it before it was awarded?
Was it after by which time it was too late anyway?
Those would be two good questions to ask them.
I’d suggest that by the time they knew for sure it was too late, but I could be wrong.
Anyway history shows that pretty quickly after McCoist failed in Europe, Lawwell committed his club to the complex and complicated secret Five-Way Agreement and all it entailed.
Celtic were senior signed-up members of the attempt to help protect and leverage the future blue revenue streams into the SPL then the SPL 2 then the bottom level.
It was all about the blue pound.
It was all about the blue pound into the future.
It was all about the blue pound into the future being central in the business model at Celtic that needed (then and now) a blue pound generating Rangers.
We all know now that compromise was somehow reached ahead of the Brechin cup tie in the summer of 2012.
Many – in fact most of – Scottish football fans were glad that football had once again broken out, having become fed up with all the politics, and were glad to return to talking about players and stuff.
Football gossip is after all more comfortable than finding out we’d all been cheated for years.
Not all fans were ready to “Move-on” however.
Some, like many of us on this site and others like it wanted to dig deeper and examine just what happened and who did what.
Some wanted Celtic as the most wronged club to do and say more about Sporting Integrity.
Some wanted to rub their old rivals into the dirt.
Some wanted a full and frank review because they believed that without Sporting Integrity we would make the same mistakes in the future.
I’d be one of these fans.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Celtic shareholders who pieced together the jigsaw that led to Resolution 12, correctly identified that their club were illegally denied a place in the Champions League and denied substantial revenues.
Fair play to them.
If I was a Celtic shareholder I personally would have wanted to know why my board had not pursued these significant revenues that were due to my company.
It was and is a big deal.
No it was and is a huge deal.
It remains an open sore and everyone involved seems to have ducked any blame.
I applaud those Requisitioner Shareholders for how they have gone about the process, and I have a huge respect for everything they have done on behalf of Celtic and fans of all Scottish clubs.
However in my opinion it was always doomed to failure because of the simple fact that their own club, having been an integral part of the whole murky “Armageddon” process, had already moved on into the new world they had helped to forge, and did not and could not look back.
So Resolution 12 was treated politely but cleverly by the club in the finest traditions of Sir Humphrey.
They did not want to fight their shareholders corner then and I’d suggest still don’t – and wont.
So going back to my five points earlier.
- Mr Lawwell et al did not want to establish the real truth, which they already knew. Hey had already signed up to what had been reported, moved the club on and spent his personal bonuses along the way no doubt.
- Mr Lawwell et al did not want a real debate because he and his small team had already done what they believed at the time to be right for the club they were paid to manage.
Nothing more to say.
And yes he could mumble agreement that Sporting Integrity is important when cornered but between us chaps it wouldn’t ever have filled the yawning gaps in the stands at Celtic Park without a Rangers counterbalance. - Rangers are now back and the Old Firm is once again dominating Scottish Football.
The truth at Celtic Park is we need each other and season book sales and TV revenues are up proving my point all along. - We tolerate the intellectual end of our support, just, but they are hard work and you’d think they own the club.
We even quite enjoy some of their stuff sometimes as long as its not too political but we have a business to run and quite frankly sometimes they just don’t get it. They should realise the SFA and the SPFL are there to do a job for us and we keep them on a short enough leash. - We will always be grateful to Fergus for what he did. We benefited at the time from the fan’s money and now run a very successful shareholder liaison programme. Once a year we have an AGM and try to manage the reality of running a business while having to hear from people who would prefer us to regress to what we were in the 1880s. Shareholders are fine but this club is a business and must be run as such.
My Five Insights sum up the position and stance of the Celtic Board.
I don’t know what will happen to Resolution 12.
The club never wanted it because they are a business and see the world differently from the group of fans who see themselves as the Celtic soul.
I applaud these Celtic fans.
Celtic does not deserve you.
Bill1903August 29, 2016 at 09:12
I am tempted to tell them to close the door behind them to be honest,thou its not the whole answer to a more competative Scottish foorball.
It’ll never happen. Shame really as it would be the best thing that could happen to Scottish football.
BILL1903AUGUST 29, 2016 at 09:12
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/28/english-football-league-to-consider-celtic-and-rangers-for-inclu/
Another ‘Old Firm’ move to England article .What the clubs and probably the fans are desperate for.Dont think it will ever happen but you never know.I certainly have zero interest in Aberdeen playing in any league out with Scotland
=========================
I’d have no interest in it either. But do Celtic fans really have a desire to move to the English league? TRFC fans?
Lets be honest if TRFC were to move now they would sink like a stone such is their perilous financial state. Even CFC would suffer for a few years before they could begin to put together a squad strong enough to compete. The press sell it as if they would be big clubs down there, I think it would be a huge risk, a few bad seasons, a drop in resources and they will simply stagnate like so many “big” clubs down there – Leeds, Sheffield the most obvious. At a minimum they can forget entry Euro football and all the riches that lie down that particular route. It would be a dangerous move.
It comes back to the same answer, stop looking for a way out, cos as things stand it’s not in anyones interest, and lets get together and actively nurture and develop what we have in Scotland.
There is a follow up article to the one above, but mentioning the Atlantic league and also including Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen joining the league down South.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/28/u-turn-leaves-football-league-facing-competition-to-tempt-old-fi/
It strikes me as rather odd that Rangers* and Celtic and their fans see themselves as stifled, held back, unable to meet their maximum potential by the ‘diddy clubs’ within the confines of the Scottish league setup.
They hanker for the lure of the riches available elsewhere, most notably in England and the Champions League. The irony is lost on them that in the context of those increasingly elite competitions, Rangers* and Celtic are mere diddy clubs themselves, for whom an invite is highly unlikely for a variety of reasons, including self-preservation and a closed shop to ensure that the rich clubs keep getting richer to the exclusion of everyone else. The next time supporters of these two clubs whinge at the injustice of clubs such as Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich etc operating a closed shop, they might want to reflect on how two Scottish clubs held the rest of us to ransom for a century or so!
Regrettably, it would be remiss to avoid mentioning the baggage that comes with BOTH these clubs, including elements of their support who, even in the 21st century, engage in bigoted and sectarian behaviour on a scale seen nowhere else in Europe, and hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008, notwithstanding that those instances of severe public disorder involved fans of a now deceased club.
As a fan of one of the lesser clubs, I’d love to see the issue put to bed once and for all by our football authorities. They could withhold a licence to play until both clubs committed to, for example, a century of allegiance to the Scottish game. Now I fully appreciate that if these clubs left in the future, there’s little our authorities could do about it, but at a minimum the SFA would have the ability to refuse to select players for international matches.
Alternatively of course, the diddy clubs could always say “enough’s enough”, launch the two wannabe emigrants, and build a competitive league built on integrity and living within our means.
Wallace’s piece in the ‘Telegraph’ got up my nose for reasons other than those relating to whether it would be a good, bad thing for any Scottish club to seek to join the EFL ( although I personally think it would not be particularly good thing).
So , I’ve emailed Sammy at this address sam.wallace@telegraph.co.uk ( in the belief that that is the kind of email address format that is appropriate)
“Dear Sam Wallace,
As oor Rabbie might well have said,
“Ah, Sam, Ah,Sam, thou’ll get thy fairin
In hell they’ll roast thee like a herrin’ ”
I refer to your piece in today’s ‘Telegraph’ and this particular paragraph:
“The Old Firm rivals would bring considerable clout to any new set-up. Both clubs have massive and fervent fan bases – Celtic had a gate of 57,758 for their 4-1 win over Aberdeen on Saturday, Rangers attracted a crowd of 48,716 for the recent win over Motherwell – as well as illustrious histories…”,
and I have two observations to make:
a) It is a nonsense to use the expression ” Old Firm”. As you must know, the Rangers FC of 1873 ceased to exist in 2012 when the club was Liquidated. It was not bought, or brought, out of Administration, by a new owner who made some kind of settlement with the Administrators and its many innocent creditors. No: it crucified its creditors,dying the commercial death of Liquidation, lost in cosequence its ‘share’ in both the SFA and the then SPL, and ceased to exist as a football club playing in any SFA or SPL recognised league.
It therefore necessarily ceased to exist as one half of the ‘Old Firm’, a term used to describe the sometimes too cosy commercial understanding between the Rangers of 1873 and the Celtic of 1888 ( relating to a period when there were suspiciously too many draws in cup ties in which they met).
b) A new club was founded by the Charles Green consortium , which bought the assets of the liquidated club, in 2012 . This new club was named SevcoScotland, renamed Rangers 2012, and further renamed “The Rangers Football Club Ltd” [ since it could not be simply named ‘Rangers FC’, that creature still being in legal existence, although just as a legal entity under insolvency legislation]
It is simply not the legal or commercial case or sporting case that this new club has ‘an illustrious history’.
It has a creditable enough 4-year-history, and no more.
It is perfectly understandable that many thousands of grief-stricken supporters of the liquidated club, and members of the Scottish Parliament, and sports hacks in the print media in Scotland and in BBC Radio Scotland, want desperately to believe that “The Rangers FC Ltd” is the very identical club that is “Rangers FC (IL)”
But you and I and the whole world of Football know that that way madness lies.
A madness that is aided and compounded by the lies of the Scottish Football Authorities, who, in their mad panic at the prospect of losing “Rangers”, struck a most poisonous deal with Charles Green which, in a travesty of ‘Fair Play’ administration and against every principle of Sporting Integrity, permitted “The Rangers FC Ltd” to advertise itself in the money market as “Rangers Football Club” when it issued its IPO, and still allows it to claim the sporting achievements of the liquidated “Rangers FC”.
Just stick to the facts, Sam, please, and write about “The Rangers FC Ltd” , and do not give us any more tosh about the ‘Old Firm’.
If not for our sake, then at least for the sake of your own integrity as a Sports writer.
Cheers,
JC
HIGHLANDER
AUGUST 29, 2016 at 11:20 6 Votes
It strikes me as rather odd that Rangers* and Celtic and their fans see themselves as stifled, held back, unable to meet their maximum potential by the ‘diddy clubs’ within the confines of the Scottish league setup.
======================================================
Can I ask, how many Celtic supporters have actually said this to you. Speaking as one myself I don’t feel that way, far from it. I see Celtic as being a Scottish club playing in Scotland and see no reason why we would want to play anywhere else. I haven’t actually discussed this at length with other supporters however the impression I get is that other Celtic fans feel the same way. The fact that we don’t regularly, if ever, discuss moving to another country to play football if anything supports that view.
With regards
“Regrettably, it would be remiss to avoid mentioning the baggage that comes with BOTH these clubs, including elements of their support who, even in the 21st century, engage in bigoted and sectarian behaviour on a scale seen nowhere else in Europe, and hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008, notwithstanding that those instances of severe public disorder involved fans of a now deceased club.”
When was the last time Celtic were involved in “hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008”.
John,
i think you need to complain to the BBC like those Rangers fans did.
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/appeals/esc_bulletins/2013/apr_may.pdf
Mr J Lescott signs for AEK ATHENS.
So school run will be a bitch and guess there was no medical if you were to believe all the bull that was spouted after he didn’t sign for t’rangers.
I assume the Daily Record will refer to Lescott’s new club as “Greek giants AEK Athens” in the same way that Tavernier was supposedly a transfer target for “Turkish giants Trabzonspor”, unless of course that wouldn’t suit any agenda they might happen to have.
HOMUNCULUSAUGUST 29, 2016 at 12:19 HIGHLANDERAUGUST 29, 2016 at 11:20 6 Votes
“Regrettably, it would be remiss to avoid mentioning the baggage that comes with BOTH these clubs, including elements of their support who, even in the 21st century, engage in bigoted and sectarian behaviour on a scale seen nowhere else in Europe, and hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008, notwithstanding that those instances of severe public disorder involved fans of a now deceased club.”
When was the last time Celtic were involved in “hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008”.
=======================================
Quick avoidance of the old sectarianism charge there Homunculus!
TAYRED
AUGUST 29, 2016 at 10:38
…
I’d have no interest in it either. But do Celtic fans really have a desire to move to the English league? TRFC fans?
===================================
Don’t know why this story keeps getting aired.
Neither the SPFL nor EPL will be keen to have a CFC & TRFC move: it’s not in their member clubs’ interests, [in their opinion, probably].
However, a 3rd party could be the catalyst to enforce a move – and regardless of what the fans want.
If/when the ratings start to fall for EPL games, the TV companies would force changes on the EPL – otherwise the clubs don’t get the big money they enjoy.
One boost, IMO, could be the forcing of CFC & TRFC into the EPL – or even Championship – to increase the viewers’ interest.
It might be a ‘last resort’, but it’s there in the future for the TV companies: the EPL & SPFL sold their souls for TV money a long time ago…and b*gger the fans !
SHUG
AUGUST 29, 2016 at 12:44
Mr J Lescott signs for AEK ATHENS.
So school run will be a bitch and guess there was no medical if you were to believe all the bull that was spouted after he didn’t sign for t’rangers.
=======================
Absolutely !
And the 34 year old has apparently signed a 2 year deal – so his fitness must be reasonable ?
For a player who has only ever played for English teams, Glasgow was deemed ‘unsuitable’ for his family…however, Athens is in fact more suitable for his family !?
Makes TRFC look like d!ddies, and guess that Lescott’s agent will be sharing his TRFC stories with fellow agents down south ?
And it makes Warbs look a wee bit vulnerable as well, IMO…
Coming back from game on Saturday on supporters bus and driver puts Clyde 1 SSB on radio –
Celtic fan calls in and chastises Mr Keevins on his choice of team to win league – rangers!
He states Celtic fans have SELECTIVE HEARING and his choice was based on respective signings in August and the month was not yet over??
Gerry Mc ? then gave him a chance to change his mind but oor Hughie was adamant his mind was set.
For a Scottish pundit to accuse any section of society with having SELECTIVE HEARING when they have en masse repeatedly refused to listen when concrete evidence of corruption from irrefutable sources goes right over their heads is despicable.
My thoughts are with his friends and family.
Seems Cristian Gamboa is under going a medical before signing for Celtic fee already agreed.So replacement right back then.
StevieBCAugust 29, 2016 at 15:50
‘…Makes TRFC look like d!ddies, and guess that Lescott’s agent will be sharing his TRFC stories with fellow agents down south ?’
______
It is no doubt a truism, that no matter what your counterparts in your profession or job think of your professional abilities, one thing is absolutely essential: and that is that you are seen to be a fundamentally honest broker in your dealings with them, and as being someone who respects himself enough to respect the truth and respects the truth enough to tell it!
Warburton ( and I have some sympathy for him) is employed by a board ( or is it two Boards?) not especially noted for their George Washington attitude to truth. He will need to be careful that they do not cause him to trash his name in the football world, the way their name is said to be largely trashed in the business and commercial world.
Re the Lescott move
I was listening to Clyde SSB tonight and DJ stated that the rangers did Lescott a favour by saying the move broke down for family reasons ,as the true story was that the medical highlighted a problem with his knee and they did not want to be caught out again as they had been before with Daniel Prodan .
So they were telling a wee white lie to protect the player
Make of that what you will
FAN OF FOOTBALL
AUGUST 29, 2016 at 19:28
…So they were telling a wee white lie to protect the player Make of that what you will
===========================
According to TRFC / their SMSM lapdogs ;
– Lescott failed his medical
– then it was Lescott chose not relocate his family
– but it was definitely nothing to do with money
– and now it’s back to a failed medical…?
Whatever the real reason, it just shows up TRFC in a very poor light – wrt signing a relatively high profile player.
…and if Warbs was indeed blindsided by ‘someone’ in the Blue Room, then he certainly won’t be a happy camper, IMO.
Who knows where the truth lies? And in reality who cares? Transfers break down all the time, we just don’t hear about them. Move on. It affects all clubs. It’s the SMSM that makes this an issue.
jimboAugust 29, 2016 at 20:55
‘…Who knows where the truth lies? And in reality who cares? ‘
________
??
A couple of interesting snippets re transfers since Joleon Lescott is topical.
According to wiki T’Rangers have shelled out £2.12m on transfers and now have a squad this season of 29 as opposed to 26 last season. This of course includes Mr Barton and a good number of players on long terms contracts presumably with some form of wage escalator. The eight players who left last year released money from the wage bill but they all went for free.
On Sportsound tonight John Hughes said that in his coming on 14 years of football management he has only spent £250k in total, yes in total, on transfer fees for players.
What I said was, and I quote “…..and hooliganism and rioting of the type visited on Manchester in 2008, notwithstanding that THOSE INSTANCES of severe public disorder involved fans of a now deceased club.”
With all due respect, Homunculus, it would have been difficult to make it any clearer that I was referring to Rangers fans rioting in Manchester, considering that Third Lanark and Gretna fans weren’t renowned for their hooliganism and rioting, nor were fans of any other deceased club that I’m aware of.
Celtic fans have also been less than angelic over the years, rioting/disorder in Amsterdam last year being a recent case in point. If you care to type in the words “Celtic fans riot” in any search engine, you’ll find a host of other examples, such as Dublin, Burnley, Blackburn and Brentford. How can we complain about our football authorities and the media ignoring or distorting the facts if we can’t even own up to truth about our own clubs?
The simple point I was trying to make was that unsavoury historical events are likely to preclude any invitation for either club to play south of the border, again notwithstanding that one of the troublemaking clubs is no longer with us, although its fans are.
John ClarkAugust 29, 2016 at 19:06 Warburton ( and I have some sympathy for him)
……………………………………………………………
I respect your view. However, I see it differently. I cannot conceive that anyone could have gone into employment in that club without a perception of much that is plain downright wrong with it! He went in for his own reasons, choosing (and continuing to choose) to ignore or set aside that wrong; and has been a willing participant in and contributor to it. He should, therefore, take the consequences of his own actions.
Highlander if I recall correctly the disturbance in Amsterdam was allegedly caused by Ajax thugs who smashed their way into a bar full of Celtic fans enjoying a drink. They carried out the same tactic in Glasgow as was seen on CCTV. THE ‘cheeks of the same a**e’ argument really is tiresome.As a Celtic fan I have been subjected to abuse from supporters of other clubs. Its not just a Glasgow thing.
Was rehearsing with the band tonight, and came across a group of well known Scottish musicians of my acquaintance, one of whom happens to be a big Rangers fan. I haven’t bumped into him since before Admin/Liquidation, so I decided to get ripped into him (on the basis of friendly banter of course
).
I was immediately disarmed by his remark that he ‘wished to feck that we would just admit that shit happened, we cheated folk and went bust when we got found out, that we are a new club, but that we are still Rangers supporters!’
No friendly slagging match for me then 🙁
He also opined that the RFC history will always be there, but just broken. He also blames the media and corporate greed for the peddling of the myth, and thinks, as many of us do, that Rangers fans didn’t need continuity of the club – just continuity of their loyalty to the spirit of the club.
He does subscribe to the ‘won on the park’ theory regarding honours in the EBT years, and that removal of honours would be unfair to the players of that era who didn’t know the club was gaining an unfair advantage.
In short his idea is that the titles should be retained, but that a line needs to be drawn at liquidation, and trophy meters reset. Because of his public profile, he doesn’t want to put his head on a block over this – that’s why I am not naming and shaming
Thing is, you don’t hear that kind of stuff from most Rangers fans. I wonder if that is because there actually is a silent majority, or is my friend the exception? Whatever, it is refreshing sometimes to hear someone singing from a different hymn-sheet.
BP,
Think I told you I’m an amateur musician myself and have met what seems like thousands of fellow players over the years. Brass bands, flute bands, pipe bands, orchestras, swing bands, groups etc. And one thing they all have in common is they are all sober, non smokers, anti drugs and hugely intelligent. So it does not surprise me that your Rangers pal who is a musician talks sense.
(sorry I missed your gig a couple of weeks ago. a long story)
Yes and the rioting in Manchester was allegedly caused by Chelsea fans.
Look, I’m not here to defend Rangers fans, far from it, nor am I promoting the ‘two cheeks’ argument and I can even understand that more trouble is likely purely because of the size of the support of Celtic and Rangers, but none of it changes the fundamental point I was making which is that it is highly unlikely that either club will be invited to play in England, and understandably so. It really is that simple.
BIG PINKAUGUST 30, 2016 at 00:53
=============================
Interesting views from your musician friend BP. I don’t think anyone on here has ever denied Rangers fans the right to hold the spirit of the currently being liquidated club close to them. I think fans of any club would do the same. However I’m sure fans of any club would agree it is simply wrong for the football authorities to treat Rangers as an ‘idea’ that can never die, meaning there is always continuity of trophies won. Due to recent interviews with Fergus McCann there has been much talk of how he saved Celtic from going out of business. He himself spoke of clearing the bank debt to prevent this happening. That is the reality of the situation that applied to Celtic, and all the other clubs who entered administration but avoided liquidation in more recent times. You either pay all the debt off as Celtic did and keep a clean record, or you come to a legally binding arrangement with your creditors to exit administration with your record intact, albeit with the stain of stiffing creditors. If you can do neither, like Rangers, you cease to exist.
joes11August 29, 2016 at 22:38
‘…[Warburton]… I cannot conceive that anyone could have gone into employment in that club without a perception of much that is plain downright wrong with it! .’
___________________
I was ready to take the view that Warburton -like,say, the English Sports media and the man on the Clapham omnibus- knew little and cared less about the circumstances in which a Scottish football club died, and probably also knew little about the real rottenness at the core of SDM’s RFC.
He certainly must have been spun a tissue of tosh by the ‘Directors’, ‘confirmed’ by the acceptance and encouragement of that tosh by the SMSM, about how TRFC is really ‘Rangers’ of old.
And was, essentially, conned as so many others have been.
But perhaps he had/has other network connections, and an appeal to his loyalty, vanity, wallet, or whatever made him choose to accept the Big Lie anyway, even if he knew damn fine what kind of a scam of a club he was getting into.
If he did, then you would be right , and of course he would deserve every bad word that football agents and others in football might utter about him in the matter of PR stunts such as , say,setting up transfer deals in bad faith.If such a thing were to happen.
I don’t know.
So I give him, as a mere employee of a person or persons known to have a proclivity for telling porkies, the benefit of the doubt!
He might take a tumble to himself over the next number of weeks if, as seems entirely possible, TRFC stumble on the pitch.
In which connection, does anyone know whether the Match Commander for the upcoming game against Celtic has had a word with the Boards of the two clubs? Or will that be left until half-time on the day?
HELPMABOABAUGUST 30, 2016 at 00:06
Highlander if I recall correctly the disturbance in Amsterdam was allegedly caused by Ajax thugs who smashed their way into a bar full of Celtic fans enjoying a drink. They carried out the same tactic in Glasgow as was seen on CCTV. THE ‘cheeks of the same a**e’ argument really is tiresome.As a Celtic fan I have been subjected to abuse from supporters of other clubs. Its not just a Glasgow thing.
====================================
Loath to join this one, but I can’t just ignore. The “Two Cheeks” label is forever going to be associated with both (all 3?) clubs. Unfortunately for you, it is not for fans of those 2 clubs to decide. Its historical, and you surely cannot be blind to why fans of the other clubs n Scotland label you as thus?? Its only a name, and hardly the most offensive! I can assure you in early days being labelled a “sheep-sh*gger” wasn’t particularly enjoyable either until the fans brilliantly decided to make it their own – although it is discomforting to be asked by a delightful young French colleague in her gorgeous accent “what does sheep shagger mean?”.
But we aren’t talking about non-specific abuse here. Abuse from any group of fans towards another (or police, millicent bystanders etc) is wrong, plain wrong and is a cancer on the game. Trouble does associate itself with football, some eejits take delight in using it as an excuse. Football fans aren’t interested in causing trouble, some of my most enjoyable times have been with opposition fans where friendly and often extremely humorous banter has taken place too-and-fro – but the eejits are never far away and often hijack they fun times in an attempt to stir up trouble (and more often than not leg it once there is a real threat of trouble).
This debate has itself been hijacked somewhat though. The real focus should be on sectarianism, not whether supporters of A are any better behaved than B. Any trouble is bad, the level of “badness” should frankly be irrelevant for us. But we, Scotland, the SFA and if I may be so bold Glasgow needs to wake up and quickly because the song books have been brought back down from the loft and the mass choirs of hatred are screaming out their venom from the terracing once again.
on the subject of Made up news
and
Made up History
(a team from ibrokes getting 4 penalties in One game) that isn’t new or news !
http://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/on-this-day-aug-30/
Highlander
August 30, 2016 at 07:13
I agree with the observation about fan violence, although I don’t think single incidents, whether it is Manchester or Amsterdam, tell us a lot about the inherent characteristics of any group of supporters.
I think a pattern of behaviour would tell us more, and my feeling is that the organised stuff that still goes on in England (largely unreported) is by far a more serious problem for the authorities.
I am not so sure in any event that fan violence would deter an invitation for either Celtic or Rangers to play in England. The real reason it is a non-starter for the foreseeable future is financial. The turkeys voting for Christmas metaphor being the most compelling for me.
However, if at any time there is a financial upside, I believe that invitation would come, whatever the scale of fan violence. I don’t think that morality, sporting integrity, or Corinthian spirit is any more likely to prevail in England than it is here.
In football, God is Mammon.
Oh dear. The squirrels are running wild.
The suggestion that Celtic and maybe the reincarnated The Rangers want to up sticks to England is one that I can only ever recall hearing from the business people running the clubs.
In my opinion this is a reflection of the disjoint between clubs as a business and clubs as a community of fans. My guess is that the vast majority of fans would prefer to stay in Scotland and would actually like to see Scottish football thrive. How much better to keep the local (in this case national) rivalries alive but with a better product on and off the pitch?
There will be some fans that are sold on the alleged money and dreams of living like an EPL club. This is the propaganda they are being fed on a daily basis – so is it a surprise?
What most people here would surely realise is that the EPL / CL is a hegemony that is unlikely to ever want to expand to include others?
There are many reasons why the EPL might not want to include teams from Scotland, but the idea that fans behaviour is a significant one is pretty doubtful. England fans – well known for their good behaviour. Chelsea fans – ambassadors for diversity and tolerance. It would be easy to go on.
The money men running the game will do that which makes them most money – fan behaviour has as much chance of influencing them as sporting integrity. Zilch.
As for our own delightful fans, pretty sure there are many clubs outside Glasgow with problem groups. Throwing stones from glass houses is stupid.
I then wrote and have subsequently deleted a big bit on the singing of songs at fitba matches.
To be honest, I lost the will halfway through.
The jist of it was I wish we didn’t have the problem, the clubs could stop it if they wanted, and that the both cheeks equally bad argument is both inaccurate and exacerbates the problem.
Must try harder.
And in the time it took me to write and then delete that bit, BP has elegantly summarised what I was struggling to say.
Should just go do some bleedin work…. 🙁
tayredAugust 30, 2016 at 08:46
‘…millicent bystanders ‘
‘..although it is discomforting to be asked by a delightful young French colleague ‘
________
You mean Millicent, tayred? Or was that a wee Freudian slip?
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 30, 2016 at 10:41
tayredAugust 30, 2016 at 08:46‘…millicent bystanders ‘‘..although it is discomforting to be asked by a delightful young French colleague ‘________You mean Millicent, tayred? Or was that a wee Freudian slip?
===============
Millicent Bystander? The lead character in that underrated Aardman Animation film “Flushed Away”. No? Good harmless family fun for a wet Sunday afternoon!
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 30, 2016 at 08:26
joes11August 29, 2016 at 22:38
‘…[Warburton]… I cannot conceive that anyone could have gone into employment in that club without a perception of much that is plain downright wrong with it! .’___________________
I was ready to take the view that Warburton -like,say, the English Sports media and the man on the Clapham omnibus- knew little and cared less about the circumstances in which a Scottish football club died, and probably also knew little about the real rottenness at the core of SDM’s RFC.
He certainly must have been spun a tissue of tosh by the ‘Directors’, ‘confirmed’ by the acceptance and encouragement of that tosh by the SMSM, about how TRFC is really ‘Rangers’ of old.And was, essentially, conned as so many others have been.
——————————————————————–
Do you think that David Weir had no input towards Warburton’s decision to join up? The likelihood that there were no other offers on the table for him? He’s renowned (at least according to the SMSM) as a busy networker. Did that fail him? Did he not google anything?
He accepted a job which required a certain skill-set which he thought he had. I’ve no doubt he thought he could ‘effect change’ within TRFC. Currently, I see a manager who is withdrawing into a different role: head coach.
I wonder which NED of the clumpany is de facto Director of Football? Do any of them have the requisite experience?
Re Warburton
I don’t think the man is daft and will have done his homework on T’Rangers.
The reality is however that football manager’s jobs are few and far between. Especially at a full time club, let alone one that has the opportunity to fill a 50k plus stadium.
If you limit yourself to the UK then the numbers of jobs to the number of experienced and well qualified coaches doesn’t stack up and many folk are found ‘resting’ for months that sometimes turn into years.
Anyone with the slightest sniff at a job at a club the size of T’Rangers would be daft not to take it unless there was something major on offer elsewhere.
Warburton by all accounts had a decent city career behind him and has done well to get on in the game given his limited playing and coacking experience at a high level. He also has an alternative career to fall back on if things became desperate.
For many managers and coaches football is all they know and they will take any or most jobs to stay in the game.
As discussed previously the likes of Lennon and Pressley would have known they were going into difficult situations at Bolton and Coventry but they went all the same.
Warburton knew what he was getting into. Whether he is up to that challenge is yet to be seen. One way or another he will find his level.
Appeal Update 30 August 12:30am:
Target now reached. A few days early, we have raised just over the £1200 we needed to keep things going for the next six months or so.
Thanks to those who rallied to get us over the line, and of course to all the generous donations we have received in the last four weeks.
A special thanks to the anonymous benefactor who, when we were still around £400 short of the target, offered to underwrite any shortfall. It wasn’t required, but it is good to know the depth of support we have from our community.
Thanks again to everyone!
Tris
WOTTPI
AUGUST 30, 2016 at 13:53
…
Anyone with the slightest sniff at a job at a club the size of T’Rangers would be daft not to take it unless there was something major on offer elsewhere…
========================
Agreed: Warburton only had just over 1 year’s experience as a football manager, was out of a job, but was offered the TRFC role.
A no-brainer – and even if he had done his due diligence and knew exactly what he was getting himself into.
However, his lack of experience might become problematic as the pressure grows this season – and whilst trying to manage unreasonable expectations from the bears.
We might get to see the real ‘cut of his jib’ in the aftermath of the Celtic game ?
A Notice of complaint has finally been issued to Rangers & Hibs following the cup final
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=1961&newsCategoryID=1&newsID=16468
I’d expect 5 figure fines for both clubs (probably more for Hibs) plus the costs of the damage.
I’m more annoyed that the SFA, as the hosts of the match, have escaped any sanctions. They are in effect judge and jury on themselves. They are generally quick enough to cite clubs for security failings, and sanction them, even when any incursion is viewed as unforeseeable.
I’m sure that I read somewhere the damage to the LED Advertising System was substantial and also very costly (varying estimates between £500k – £1m). I wonder if the SFA would be trying to recoup that money from Rangers & Hibs, or would that just be an insurance claim from whoever owns the LEDs?
“…
Case Two
Alleged party in breach: Rangers FC
Match: Hibernian FC v Rangers FC (Scottish Cup Final – Saturday 21st May 2016).
…
That the misbehaviour by your supporters occurred at the conclusion of the above match…”
==============================================================
IIRC, I thought the bears were clearly heard singing their infamous ‘songbook’ during the game.
The SFA Compliance Officer does not deem this to be ‘misbehaviour’ ?
Where does rejected idea of strict liability come into this? Never understood where the line was drawn in that debate – what are clubs responsible/not responsible for?
Like Easyjambo says, where is the complaint against the company that hosted the game?? Surely they were responsible for ensuring safety?
TAYRED
SFA tournament
SFA security
but liability we take SFA to do with it
The Hibs’ defence: “Our fans were only reacting to the sectarian singing.”
The SFA: “What sectarian singing ?”
Stalemate ?
tayredAugust 30, 2016 at 16:51
‘..Like Easyjambo says, where is the complaint against the company that hosted the game?? Surely they were responsible for ensuring safety?.
________
In the absence of ‘strict legal liability’ attaching to the clubs,from whom or from whose Insurance company do the companies whose advertising ‘boards’ were damaged seek compensation? Individual fans individually? The SFA? or Hampden Park Ltd?
What says the law of the land as to who would be liable?
And wouldn’t it be just too priceless to see the CEO of the SFA bringing an action,on behalf of the SFA, against Hampden Park Ltd-of which he is also the CEO!
Here was me pondering the likely reasons for a lack of action from the Compliance Officer following the sectarian singing broadcasted at Kilmarnock last week.
Obviously it now takes several months for any action to see the light of day now matter how partial ( pun intended) the charges turn out to be. Best put some dates in the diary for Decemberish.
All joking aside, just what does it take for the SFA’s mainly invisible Compliance responsibilities to kick in with regard to sectarian songs from TRFC fans?…and while I’m on a roll would anyone care to start a timeline on all the examples where TRFC officials and board members have been reported in the media saying things that other clubs would be punished for?
It might be reasonable to hope that an objective list of SFA fails in this regard might be useful in minimising future recurrences.
(wakes up from hopeful dream….ah well.)
I think I best refrain from commenting on this shoite apart from saying Hibs should tell them any fine levied will be paid after t’rangers Lns and any other outstanding fines are paid otherwise they can swivel for it.
BIG PINK
AUGUST 30, 2016 at 00:53
He does subscribe to the ‘won on the park’ theory regarding honours in the EBT years, and that removal of honours would be unfair to the players of that era who didn’t know the club was gaining an unfair advantage.
==============================================
Whilst your chum is clearly more realistic than at least some of the Rangers’ support I have a bit of difficulty with that.
The players were getting money paid to them through a trust, by applying for loans, which they didn’t have to repay and had a side letter to that effect, and were paying less tax as a direct result. I think they must have at least suspected that something was amiss.
It isn’t a huge leap from there to realise that the club was getting an advantage through paying them this way.
EASYJAMBOAUGUST 30, 2016 at 15:43 9 Votes
A Notice of complaint has finally been issued to Rangers & Hibs following the cup final
Notices of Complaint | Scottish Cup FinalTuesday, 30 August 2016The Compliance Officer has issued the following Notices of Complaint:
————————-
Is the role of Tony McGlennan as compliance officer. Is his role not to look at events on and off the field during the 90 min or extra time.As the game had ended does he still have a remit to look at events after the game and issued the following Notices of Complaint:
I have been trying to find his job description and details of his role and just what he has power over, to no avail.
CLUSTER ONE
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lawyer-tony-mcglennan-takes-over-4025141
Is the notice of complaint from the findings from the independent commission that was set up to investigate the circumstances of the Scottish Cup final disorder.
the commission’s remit was to review all operational matters relating to the event hosting of the final.
“It will be convened to analyse the processes and protocols undertaken in the staging of the match.
Or is the notice of complaint from the findings of the Scottish FA’s compliance officer investigating potential rule breaches from a football regulatory perspective.
I would consider flares and smoke bombs to be far, far more dangerous in a crowded terrace where innocent spectators could be injured or even maimed for life. Other clubs have been rightly punished for such folly in the recent past. Why has the Compliance Officer chosen to ignore this important aspect at such a prestigious event? Will the SFA dare to punish any clubs in future for the pyrotechnics of their fans?
TONYAUGUST 30, 2016 at 21:21 Rate This
CLUSTER ONE
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/lawyer-tony-mcglennan-takes-over-4025141
———————–
I tried that, all i found was.
He will assume responsibility for determining which players, coaches and other officials should face SFA disciplinary charges.
Nothing to say if he has authority over events after a game has ended
CLUSTER ONE
think it is as long as it is in the stadium.but it is the SFA so god knows what he is meant to do
“Disciplinary Rule 311In that at the above match you failed to adhere to the Cup Competition Rules, specifically Rule 28 of the Rules of The Scottish Cup….’
_____
I cannot find any relevance(in what seems to be Disciplinary rule 311) to the charge made, or any Rule 28 in the Rules of the Scottish Cup .in any of the web-site references to the Judicial Panel Protocol or the Rules of the Scottish Cup competition that come up.
Presumably they must be there somewhere.
Anyone?
JOHN CLARK
http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SFAPublications/SFAHandbook/12%20CupCompRules.pdf
doesnt relate to the game ?? maybe i’m in wrong rule book
JOHN CLARK
28. Disorderly ConductThe clubs are responsible for the behaviour of their players, officials, members, supportersand any person carrying out a function at a match on their behalf.In the event of damage being sustained to a stadium where a tie in the Competition isplayed as a consequence of misbehaviour by a player, official, member, supporters, or anyother person acting on behalf of or associated with a club, then that club shall beresponsible for any costs arising in the reparation of same.The Scottish FA shall have the power to request such reports as may be necessary indetermining responsibility for restitution and may additionally through the Judicial Panelimpose upon any club a censure, fine, ejection from the Competition or suspension if, in theopinion of the Judicial Panel, a stadium is the subject of damage by that club’srepresentatives or those associated with it (Rule 6 refers).The provisions of this Rule 28 are without prejudice to the terms of Article 28, which applyto clubs in the context of their participation in the Competition. Any infringement of thatArticle also can lead to serious sanctions as set out in the Articles of Association and/or theJudicial Panel Protocol including ejection from the Competition.
JOHN CLARKAUGUST 30, 2016
“Disciplinary Rule 311In that at the above match you failed to adhere to the Cup Competition Rules, specifically Rule 28 of the Rules of The Scottish Cup….’
Hope this works, if not let me know.
PART TIME PETEAUGUST 29, 2016 at 12:36
Thank for the link, I found the Rangers complaint interesting regards” Pacific Shelf 595 Ltd”
I am one of the < = intelectually to most members of this blog so is there anyone who could put it in plain language what this is about.I googled but it’s all rangers sites coming up and wanted another opinion.
Think it is some of t’ranger supporter tw+ts trying to prove Celtic are a newco.
The daily radar at the lying again t’rangers players assaulted yet they get charged as well prats just suck it up why don’t they if their fans helped destroy the hoardings only fare they should share the cost.
tonyAugust 30, 2016 at 23:44
CrownStBhoyAugust 31, 2016 at 01:00
_____
Thank you, gentlemen, both.
I think I called up an out-of-date version. Much clearer now.
I was in a right good mood,anticipating a wee swally in Glasgow today with some old( aye, in both senses of the word) cronies, until I had another wee scout around the SFA site, and incidentally came across a wee reminder of one of Alex Thomson’s pieces in 2012, from which I lifted this:
“But at the least a man who was not even in Scotland during the period of in question is prepared to answer for the bizarre days before his tenure and there is action too, the SFA today writing to all Scottish clubs demanding all details of any payments to players beyond their contracts.
But hang on – the SFA rules state very clearly that all clubs have to send all payments to the SFA and SPL anyway. So why send a letter appealing to clubs not to cheat please?
Curiouser and curiouser.”
( Tuesday, March 12 2016)
Therein lies the fundamental rottenness of the CO SFA days.
Our clubs should have gone absolutely ballistic at the thought that they had been so cheated for so long by one of their own, and drummed SDM’s RFC right out of Scottish Football. What did we get instead? A total disciplinary farce, an ineffectual slap on the wrist for a dead club, not a serious word of criticism of the knighted cheat, and a cosy wee continuing dirty deal with a parcel of rogues.
I’m away for my bus in a right rage!
The Red Pill:
Celtic were originally incorporated (in 1897) as The Celtic Football and Athletic Company Ltd, and those were the words on the club crest up to Fergus-time.
When the club became a PLC, that name had to be ditched, and the name was changed to Celtic PLC. This is the football club – not a holding company.
For sentimental reasons (and also probably to leverage some extra revenue), the club wanted to still have the original name too.
Accordingly they bought an off-the-shelf company (Pacific shelf) and changed it’s name to The Celtic Football and Athletic Company Ltd. This is not the club but a subsidiary.
Fundamentally though, the purchase was to facilitate the link to the old name and to be able to tie the words in the old IP to something that exists, The Celtic Football & Athletic Coy. Ltd
BIG PINK
i think they also kept that name registered so no one could use it in future,something i read somewhere
Big Pink , thanks for that explanation appreciated ,though disappointed you did not bite on the <= bit
Once again the DR makes a fool of itself.
Fans face fixture pain as TV moves games
Motherwell’s meeting with Hearts has also been brought forward from Saturday, October 1st to September 31
Also
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/sfa-rulebook-farce-hampden-riot-8735549
Been playing catch up today, but on the subject of teams leaving Scotland to join the English leagues…….C’mon….
Why not have Barca, Juve, and Dortmund also defect and set up the super-duper league darn sarf? What could prevent it happening if it was permissible for a Scottish team?
On one hand some folk are saying defect = good, but Super-duper league = bad. There is a certain irony in that.
A nearly truthful paragraph from today’s BBC online pages – http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37226686 about Ian Durrant
“Durrant was at the club in February 2012 when Rangers Football Club Plc were put into administration and subsequently liquidation, and worked through the Charles Green era, a time when Ibrox was a place of endless turmoil and the team had to work its way back up from the bottom tier.”
So ‘liquidated’ but then ‘had to work its way back up from the bottom tier’. How does that work then?
NAWLITEAUGUST 31, 2016 at 14:43
Durrant was at the CLUB in February 2012.
The TEAM had to work etc.
Devil in the detail .
Rangers Statement re Notice of Complaint
At great expense, the welcome to Scotlands newest club from Dundee FC. Its a bit nauseating, you have been warned.
..as the Dee look to record their first home win over The Gers since 1992…. Not the same club as that created by alchemist Green. Hope their next hosts do better, or will it be vetted by Police Scotland?