I have been receiving quite a bit of unflattering mail about the “agenda” being pursued on this blog. Depending on the correspondent, that is defined as either denying people their civil right to gloat, hiding the “truth” that people of the RC faith are welcomed and encouraged to come to Ibrox, or indulging in Chamberlain-style appeasement with the banning of the “H” word and other incontrovertible rights-to-insult.
The objection to moderation of any sort appears to be at the root of these diatribes. Our position here in terms of moderation is clear. There is no “agenda” other than a desire not to be chasing up posts containing the rantings and ravings of partisan types who “demand” their right to be heard no matter how objectionable it might be to those hear it. We are not here to service a conduit for conspiracy theories based in Masonic Lodges or the Vatican. There are plenty of places where people can indulge in that kind of stuff, but the moderators here are just not interested. The administration of the site takes around four hours per day. That’s a long time trawling through posts which often set out deliberately to insult, abuse or otherwise cause offence – mildly or otherwise.
Our view is that the blog will only have cross-club support if we stick to what we can substantiate by fact or reasonably infer from the way things proceed. Further, we feel that if we are to gain credibility as an alternative source of news and comment to the MSM, that we need to cut down on the fansite type comments. There is no dignity (a word often used here) in calling the Rangers manager or their fans names. We need to maintain higher standards of impartiality than football fansites, because we know that a united fan base can actually make a difference as RTC did when the SPL chairmen were gearing up for a parachute for the new Rangers. OT discussions are fine, and often amusing, but they shouldn’t become the main reason to come here.
The requirement to have a WordPress account before posting here is not in any way draconian. It is designed to make people accountable for what they post whilst still maintaining anonymity, and therefore being exempt from moderation. Those who don’t like it are not being compelled to carry out any instruction – they only need go to a place where they don’t feel so constrained.
If the main issue of this blog becomes how the blog is being administered – or how the moderation policy is affecting the human rights of posters, we may as well just pack up now.
There have never been any objections to the suggested posting rules on here. We assume that people who post are reasonably intelligent. Therefore it seems fair to assume that those who have ignored the suggested posting rules did so deliberately. If that doesn’t happen, moderation is just not required.
If what we are trying to do fails because of our posting framework, then we will be blamed. We are certain though, that we can have no credibility if we indulge ourselves in conspiracy theories and constant references to anachronistic organisations, the Scottish school system, and the leanings of referees.
There is real corruption in Scottish football. It is based not on religious rivalries but on greed and acquisitiveness. The only thing that matters is that we identify that corruption and help put an end to it.
Our job is to ask questions and not jump to our own conclusions about the answers. That will divide us as surely as the realisation of the depth of the corruption united us. To be totally united as fans, we need to have more Rangers fans on here. Therefore we need to create an atmosphere that they can be comfortable with. Is that the case right now? The anger for RFC’s mismanagement and abuse of the game in Scotland is real, but we need to look forward if we are truly committed to ensuring that what happened to Rangers can’t happen again.
We’re not gonna throw the toys out of the pram here. If anyone else would like to run the blog under those circumstances of zero moderation, we will be happy to hand over the domain. There is no “agenda” – we will be happy to hand the work over to others.
The initial posting which proposed the change to WordPress logins received over 130 TUs and only three TDs. Subsequently the post advising of the changes got around 100 TUs and 100 TDs. It seems that minds are not entirely made up.
To get some closure on this once and for all, we have added a poll below to end on Saturday at 1700 where you can decide whether you want to go along with our original plan in terms of login and moderation. We obviously recommend that you vote “Yes”
jmaclure says:
September 25, 2012 at 10:27
2 89 Rate This
And so it goes on.
Old Co, New Co, Double contracts, side letters,on and on and on.
Tell you what I am ashamed of, I am ashamed that my club, or representatives of my club ran Rangers so recklessly that we went into administration leaving thousands of unpaid bills.
I am ashamed that £millions of Tax and national insurance deducted from the players wages andt were not paid to the revenue.That is Inexcusable.
EBT’s, that for me is a sticking point. The scheme was legal at the time, used by companies, Football clubs, and Murray’s top executives, I believe. He brought them to Rangers.
It looks like it has been the way Rangers have administered it that is the problem.
In my view shoddy administration of EBT’s is a long way from the charge of cheating. If you are saying the Rangers directors thought here is a great way of paying players under the radar of the authorities, and by their actions colluding to cheat. I just do not buy it.
=========================================
The application of a competent EBT scheme relies on all payments from the relevant fund(s) being discretionary. If payments are not discretionary (i.e. contractual) the scheme is simply not applicable to the circumstances. If wilfully used in such circumstances, it moves away from a legitimate mechanism for tax avoidance and into the realms of tax evasion.
It is not the administration of the scheme that was at fault. The side letters confirm that the players’ payments were contractual; therefore ANY EBT scheme would have been inappropriate to the circumstances.
Rangers’ attempted to “punch above their weight”, by trying to hide part of the players’ wages by:
a) Not declaring the existence of side letters to the SFA, SPL & HMRC
b) Not declaring the individual contractual value of the EBT payments to the SFA, SPL & HMRC
In this way they used the “£millions of Tax and national insurance” that should have been “deducted from the players wages” and was “not paid to the revenue” to top up those same players wages to a level that would otherwise have been unaffordable.
At least Craig Whyte was up front with HMRC. His ploy was always going to wreak its rewards. The EBT scheme was infinitely more shameful in that it attempted to hide the non-payment of lawful taxes & NI.
It really is that simple !!
In the CVA vote, HMRC voted against – claiming approx £94m.
D&P objected to approx £72m : attributable one would assume to the BTC – and therefore being subject to appeal through the FTT. So, HMRC voted against with an uncontested debt of around £22m.
Those voting for the CVA had a combined debt of around £29m.
Regardless of the outcome of the BTC HMRC still had more than 25% of the applicable debt.
Unless Lord Hodge nullifies the entire administration period (unlikely; but not impossible) Rangers are already dead.
Great new blog up from AT
http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/rulebooks-apply-rangers/2743
Follow the rules without fear or favour!
Agrajag says:
September 25, 2012 at 13:13
This post is ‘it’, in a nutshell.
I liked the analogy of The Great Train Robbers using the defence of, ” Technically, we didn’t fill in a withdrawal slip, so I suppose we were guilty of an administrative error “. Jog on.
As a by the way, I first signed up to a WordPress account on Saturday night, with a first post that was stunning, witty, erudite, revelationary, incisive, cutting, poetic and beautiful.
My account activation hadn’t worked and it was lost into the ether. Admittedly, I was drunk.
Now I’m eventually logged in and sober have nothing worthwhile to contribute. I’ll have a beer
and a ponder and get back to you.
Long Time Lurker says:
September 25, 2012 at 13:45
Unfortunately every decision so far has been taken ‘with fear and absolute favour’.
Ok – let us try another arguement
Let’s say it was all a great misunderstanding and a technical glitch.
Given that, back in 2008 when RFC were informed that their misunderstanding would cost them 50 million quid and given that the tax bill they were given was an assessment, it meant the changes of them winning the case as a misunderstanding were at the very best 50-50. So,were RFC astute enough to start putting aside money so that in 4 years they could pay off 50 million quid if it went against them? If they had done and won, they would have had a war chest to go on to conquer Europe – if they had lost, they could have stumbled on without missing much of a beat.
But they did not give a damn about the money they owed.
On the second contracts/letters issue, if it was a technical glitch, did RFC go back to check the paperwork onc the clitch was highlighted and admit the error? Or did SDM call Hugh Adams a liar and confirm to all and sundry that there were no second contracts or second letters, so let’s put that to bed?
If it were a technical error, am sure CO could have redone the errors with some tippex and no one would have noticed.
Or were some people so egotistical they thought they were above all the laws and rules everyone else used. Someone who had friends in high places – until the BoS went belly up anyway.
Last summer, SDM could have made sure CW paid the wee tax bill by making it part of the conditions of the sale – same as he did for the 18 million Lloyds loan – if he cared so much about the great club he had built all these years and who he was selling it to.
Truth is he thought he could worm his way out of it somewhere – with help from his friends – and with the conivence of the MSM. He did not in the end give a damn about RFC, its fans, fair play, Scottish society, business etiquette or Scottish football……….he cared for himself and money- and perhaps Joanna Lumley – and anyone who states differently is an apologist. Like AJ.
The cheek of AJ!
To paraphrase, “…and if those other chairmen who we (might have) told about these great EBTs had just grassed us up sooner, then our crime wouldn’t be so big and we wouldn’t be about to get so massively punished, as seems likely.” Still saying it’s everyone’s fault but ours!
Or should my first sentence be The desperation of AJ?
Is there any merit at all in his get-out argument about image rights, or is that just more classic whataboutery? I assume as they don’t relate to playing football, they’re okay. Not that the SFA has any Beckham-types where image rights would amount to much anyway!
angus1983 says:
September 24, 2012 at 21:09
“The eminent members of the Commission must ask themselves – what were the real, not fabricated, consequences of Rangers not registering the information on EBT’s directly with the SPL. ”
Sounds pretty much like a confession to me.
————————————————————
Breathtaking arrogance from the eminent Alastair “Surrender No” Johnston. Apologies if this point has already been made (I’m just catching up on the last few pages of posts), but the above statement is not dissimilar to a defendant’s lawyer saying, “The members of the jury must ask themselves–what were the real, not fabricated consequences, of this murder.”
Sorry, not-so-sooper Ally–the eminent gentlemen must establish whether or not there was wrongdoing in this case. They are not burdened with rewriting the laws of the SPL or indeed the laws of the land.
This is where the MSM will once again come to the aid of the Sevconians and the former board members of RFC (RIP): instead of effortlessly blowing away Johnston’s feeble argument, they will keep providing him with new batteries for his bullhorn, and new peas for his dog-whistle.
exiledcelt@14.27
bravo !!
Interesting to see that certain people are now changing their position. In the last few weeks we’ve moved from the classic defence in Scottish Law, “It wisnae me, a big boy did an ran away!” We are now hearing a defence along the lines of “Well technically it was an offence,” as if Rangers are to be penalised for a couple of centimetres of bumper overhanging a double yellow line.
However the technicality aspect doesn’t wash either. Spartans were expelled for a signature not being dated. You could argue that was a technical offence with a disproportionate penalty and most people would accept that view. 80 EBTs (that we know of so far), undeclared payments and side letters over a ten year period is an awful lot of technicalities. As a Director didn’t Johnston have some responsibility to ensure that someone on the staff was taking care of the “technicalities”?
taste test-er (again, sorry…)
Would Campbell Ogilvie/SDM, being the world’s best etc.. etc.., have kept a note of how much Rangers would have to pay HMRC were the EBT (can we now call it a ‘scam’?), to go t1ts up? Wouldn’t they have counted it up, year by year, probably month by month?
Wouldn’t they have known all along just EXACTLY how much they would be liable for?
I wonder if there are any documents/emails recording the ‘possible’ debt to HMRC, as that debt grew. That would be pretty nuclear.
test
Hate to make lawyers any richer but would shareholders and debenture holders have a claim against RFC Board members failing to make adequate provision for the HMRC debt once the assessment had been served all those years back?
As has been noted earlier RFC appears to have continued spending when a more prudent Board might have tucked a bit of dosh away for that rainy day that was on the horizon?
A possible class action?* Would RFC(IL) creditors have similar rights?
*I hesitated to use the word ‘class’ in anything RFC-related as it very much seems like an oxymoron.
Agrajag says:
September 25, 2012 at 13:13
………………………………………
Whatever, but what about ………….. oh just forget it. WATP!!
wolvibhoy says:
September 25, 2012 at 15:53
Agrajag says:
September 25, 2012 at 13:13
………………………………………
Whatever, but what about ………….. oh just forget it. WATP
=========================================================
Hello, hello, We Are The Police.
Could this weekend be the time to announce and hide some bad news i.e the ryder cup being broadcast
jmaclure says:
September 25, 2012 at 10:54
previouslyknownassnowdog says:
September 25, 2012 at 10:35
The ‘its only consequences’ argument.
Well the ‘its only consequences’ has Rangers in the Third Divisionr of Scottish Football, umpteen fines,top players left, transfer embargo, reputation in tatters, a squad that is mediocre and an uncertain future.
It may not be enough for you but for most people I expect it is severe enough.
Severe enough to say, lets get on with the football now, for god’s sake.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry J McClure…but you are wrong…
Yes we all hoped this debacle would draw to a close and we can all move on…but sadly it is dragging on due to a self inflicted set of circumstances and a self need for preservation at all costs by those who ran Rangers Football Club and the NEW club that now wishes to try and play both sides of the coin…
If as you say…you want everyone to just accept that those who ran Rangers football club were corrupt, dishonest and destructive to Scottish Football to a point were other clubs may be driven into financial difficulties…then no…sorry but not until all the truth and the facts are known..even as a fan of the old club you must want to know who did what and when…that destroyed the club you supported?
The third division is were all new clubs have to start….the old club were presented with 1 fine, along with a Transfer ban…which they challenged at the CoS..whilst not realising that the alternative was expulsion…..You see Green could have accepted this…which would have ended the matter…instead he dragged it out…not us..but Mr. Green…
top players left…again self inflicted…this whole sorry saga sits squarley at the feet of Mr. Murray…then Mr. Whyte..then Mr. Green …how good or bad your squad is …really is irrelevent…I don’t even know why you list this as some sort of punishment..reputation again self inflicted.
The future however is what you and the other fans who wish to follow the new club make it….make the most of this opportunity to make it the right future for the right reasons!
redlichtie says:
September 25, 2012 at 15:45
A possible class action?
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Our wonderful legal system does not allow class actions.
An attempt at how the SFA might try and accommodate/appease Sevco again ?
1) After much public wailing & gnashing, Charlie states to the Sevco fans that he has ‘very reluctantly’ accepted title losses to settle the EBT case.
Whilst he is far from happy about this – as other people who are no longer at Ibrox where the bad apples – he has made a magnanimous gesture by accepting these title losses as ‘punishment’ for the good of Sevco, but more importantly for the good of Scottish football – so that we can all move on.
Charlie is happy at removing the uncertainty, and title losses will not cost him any cash !
2) At the same time, Regan issues a weasly statement stating that the whole Rangers saga is now finally at an end – and the SFA will now only look forward, [i.e. no questions will be taken].
As for losing titles, the SFA/SPL will state that they will officially remove the titles from the record books – but they can’t remove the memories of those Rangers fans who are not to blame. So ‘unofficially’ they can still celebrate those cherished memories.
And The Peepil can carry on as before, 54* and counting… 🙄
The above is so ridiculous it might be believable wrt Sevco !
Expulsion is the ONLY appropriate punishment.
Yet again today several posters have wasted ( in my opinion) hours of time demolishing every strand of every post submitted by J McLure and to what end.
The blog is cluttered with posts trying to persuade one man that his opinions are nonsensical. He already knows that and will know it again tomorrow and Thursday, when he will attempt the same trick. On Friday he or another from the same stable will resume their charade, using a differing e-mail address. And we keep trying to be reasonable and respond as before.
Don’t keep falling for the same m.o. over and over again.
Just read AT’s blog which again highlights the huge gulf between the MSM and proper journalism. As far as I’m aware, not one Scottish journalist has said ‘how dare you question the integrity (there’s that word again) of the Scottish judiciary!’ For despite Green’s efforts to separate LNS from his ludicrous rant, it was clear his barbs were aimed at influencing ALL of the panel as well as castigating the SPL, and clearly, by his subsequent statement, Lord Nimmo Smith saw it that way too, or at least felt the need to defend his position. Why has nobody, from the legal sections of the press at least, highlighted this? English wide-boy Charles Green has become, in a very short space of time, a very prominent figure in Scottish society (though not for very honourable reasons) and has done a lot more than his fair share of rabble-rousing, mostly without serious criticism from the MSM, and now has a pop at a judicial panel, set up as much to clear Rangers (if they are, in fact, innocent) as find them guilty and decide a suitable penalty.
Now I have nothing against the English, I enjoy living in England amongst the English and know many more Scots I dislike than English, but it galls me to see someone move into my country, with the sole aim of getting rich quick, casting such arrogant nonsensical vitriol at people of much greater standing than he. Could you imagine the outcry in the Scottish Media if, say, someone like Donald Trump, in his efforts to build his golf course, and, having cause to go to a tribunal, cast similar aspersions as Green did over the suitablility of it’s members, which included a Law Lord and other respected luminaries of the legal profession? That outcry would be enormous, his face would be plastered all over the newspapers and everything the press could drag up to insult him with would be dragged up and the question ‘How very dare you?’ would be front page headlines. But then, of course, he is just some Johnny Foreigner, you know? like Vladimir Romanov, and fair game to the MSM in our fair country to lambast and ridicule, whether deserved or not. And Green definitely desrves it! I honestly cannot believe the easy ride that that man (Green) has received from the Scottish press. He stands up there and puts out such nonsense that only the very dim, or extremely blinkered, would fall for and yet is treated, by all but a very few, as some sort of Mesiah by the sporting hacks and apparently ignored by the more serious journalists. If only we had one serious journalist in Scotland with the baws and ambition to report facts and take carpet baggers like Green to task. But we probably do, just not when they represent something calling itself Rangers.
OK rant over. Oo, I could crush a grape 😉
The last major statement from Scottish football headquarters came out a minute before the start of the Olympic Games opening ceremony.
It’s only Midsomer Murders on tonight lads. Try to make it a bit earlier.
Agrajag says:
September 25, 2012 at 13:13
Can we just clear a few things up again.
Using EBTs is perfectly legal. Using them for contractual payments is not.
Using EBTs knowing they are contractual payments is not an administrative error, it is cheating…..and when you do not pay the relevent tax applicable it can be considered TAX EVASION…
Fixed that for you!
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
Don’t be so hard on J McLure, at least he is civil and makes a half decent fist of putting forward different topics.
I like to see it as someone just keeping us on our toes.
A kind of Quality Audit that continually forces us to reassess our position and fine tune our operations as new and updated information becomes available.
The exact opposite of what appears to have been the case at Ibrox during the EBT years 🙂
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
Don’t be so hard on J McLure. At least he is polite and makes a half decent fist of bringing up other topics.
Just look at him as being the sites Quality Auditor. There to keep us on our toes, regularly reassessing our position and monitoring how we deal with new and updated information.
Pretty much the exact opposite of what appears to have been the case at Ibrox during the EBT years.
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
Well said smartie, anyone who comes out with the ole chestnut ‘Punished enough’, ‘Time to move on’ mantra, are at the wind up and on here to tease. They do not merit a response, do not feed them and they will soon drift off.
Brenda says:
September 25, 2012 at 06:08(Edit)
TSFM …… I’m sorry
_____________________________________________
For what?
CG spouting forth more garbage – seems he thinks he is owed money by SFA 🙂
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/leaguedivision3/4555363/Green-warns-Itll-get-MAD.html
CHARLES GREEN last night admitted he feels sorry that Lord Nimmo Smith has been dragged into the madness of the EBT probe.
Rangers chief Green spoke out after SunSport revealed details of the plot to strip Gers of nine trophies.
Lord Nimmo Smith will front a three-man independent tribunal in November to probe alleged side payments to players.
Green refuses to recognise the hearing, but insists he will fight all the way to keep the honours.
And he’s expressed sympathy for the men who have been drawn into one of the most bitter rows in Scottish football history.
Green said: “We have never questioned the integrity of this panel. But I’m starting to feel sorry for them because they don’t know what they are getting themselves into. They are learned, they have international reputations and everyone knows their areas of expertise.
“But they are being drawn into something that is complete madness.
“If Lord Nimmo Smith can do me a favour, I would like him to get everybody in Scotland to agree whether we are newco or oldco.
“It changes every week to suit someone else’s agenda, so long as it doesn’t suit Rangers’ agenda.”
SunSport published documents which proved the SPL and SFA asked Gers to accept the loss of five titles and four Scottish Cups.
Green added: “I have said all along from day one that I will defend Rangers.
“I said that fans worry about losing their history. I have also said it’s the Rangers players who won these trophies.
“These battle honours have been won by players and they belong to the badge.
“They don’t belong to an owner or a corporate body.
“I believe that is what Lord Nimmo Smith said at the weekend.
“These trophies belong to the fans, the history books and the players who broke legs winning them.
“That is why I believe they should not and cannot be stripped.”
Green insists he is being denied cash owed to Gers as the SFA deem the money to be due to oldco.
But he argues he must be entitled to the money if the SFA argue he can face sanctions for alleged oldco crimes.
He said: “There is no relationship with the SPL and the SFA.
“I’m chief executive of Rangers and have obligations to deal with the SFA.
“As far as the SPL is concerned, I have no regard or respect for them.
“The SFA will be the appeal body in the event that I don’t agree with what Lord Nimmo Smith’s panel say.
“Yet it appears the SFA have the completely contrary view on some issues.
“I am owed £330,000 by UEFA and the SFA have refused to hand it over because they are saying I’m not entitled to it.
“It is money due to Rangers for releasing players to play for their countries.
“Maybe this is another case of Charles Green being stupid. Or is this now a case of ‘Well, it doesn’t suit us’.
“It seems we can have the pain but not the gain.”
exiledcelt says:
September 25, 2012 at 14:27
Ok – let us try another arguement
Let’s say it was all a great misunderstanding and a technical glitch.
Given that, back in 2008 when RFC were informed that their misunderstanding would cost them 50 million quid and given that the tax bill they were given was an assessment, it meant the changes of them winning the case as a misunderstanding were at the very best 50-50. So,were RFC astute enough to start putting aside money so that in 4 years they could pay off 50 million quid if it went against them? If they had done and won, they would have had a war chest to go on to conquer Europe – if they had lost, they could have stumbled on without missing much of a beat.
But they did not give a damn about the money they owed.
On the second contracts/letters issue, if it was a technical glitch, did RFC go back to check the paperwork onc the clitch was highlighted and admit the error? Or did SDM call Hugh Adams a liar and confirm to all and sundry that there were no second contracts or second letters, so let’s put that to bed?
If it were a technical error, am sure CO could have redone the errors with some tippex and no one would have noticed.
Or were some people so egotistical they thought they were above all the laws and rules everyone else used. Someone who had friends in high places – until the BoS went belly up anyway.
Last summer, SDM could have made sure CW paid the wee tax bill by making it part of the conditions of the sale – same as he did for the 18 million Lloyds loan – if he cared so much about the great club he had built all these years and who he was selling it to.
Truth is he thought he could worm his way out of it somewhere – with help from his friends – and with the conivence of the MSM. He did not in the end give a damn about RFC, its fans, fair play, Scottish society, business etiquette or Scottish football……….he cared for himself and money- and perhaps Joanna Lumley – and anyone who states differently is an apologist. Like AJ.
=======================================================================
EC…superbly succinct post…and amongst quite a few in the last day or so….Campsiejoe….likewise.
To think that the opening lines of the blog refer to “…the agenda being pursued on this blog…”
I think the blog is now bang on topic and I hope all posters can maintain its excellent standards , especially in the face of the PR onslaughts from past directors of RFC(IA).
PS is AJ(aka “Surrender No”) really an accountant.?..his morals and ethics seem so far out of place with any concepts I have had to adopt in my professional life!
Thanks you very much Essex BC
Indeed he is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Johnston
Alastair Johnston was the chairman of Rangers Football Club. He is a native Glaswegian who divides his time between Glasgow and the USA where he has business interests. He succeeded David Murray as Rangers chairman on 26 August 2009
A graduate of the University of Strathclyde, he obtained an Accountancy Degree. In 2004, he was awarded Alumnus of the Year.
He holds the posts of vice-chairman and member of the board of directors of International Management Group (IMG), the leading international sports and entertainment group. His first client was Grand Slam champion pro golfer Gary Player, whom he has remained close to ever since.
Glasgow-born Johnston is a lifelong Rangers fan. Johnston, who made his name working for the late Mark McCormack, who built IMG, was Rangers director since 2004 but was removed by new Rangers owner Craig Whyte on 24th May 2011
allyjambo says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
==========
I have to disagree with part of what AT is saying.
I say again, where is the proof that the SFA made the Commission aware of what was in the 5 way draft agreement an therefore influence their decision.
No proof has been shown, indeed it is clear that the stripping of titles is not in the final agreement only in the draft.
This interference nonsense appears only to have come from Green an the MSM, nowhere else.
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:55
============
It was in 48 hrs, so not until tomorrow, probably when Emerdale is on 🙂
CHARLES GREEN, Rangers’ Chief Executive, issued the following statement today:
He said: “Lord Nimmo Smith, chairman of the Commission set up by the SPL, has highlighted an extremely important issue in his recent judgement regarding the Commission.
“Lord Nimmo Smith has said that Rangers FC is a recognisable entity which continued in existence notwithstanding the change in ownership.
“He also stated that Rangers FC, the club, includes its owner and operator. The Commission has in effect ruled that Rangers and its history did not die on 14 June despite numerous reports to the contrary.
“This means that Rangers FC and its owner, i.e. me and my consortium, remained a member of the SPL even after the change of ownership.
“The bemusing part is that no-one at the SPL or SFA appeared to realise that. The SPL made the club (including its owner and operator) reapply to be a member of a league that the Commission says it was in already.
“If the Commission is right then the change of ownership was frankly irrelevant to SPL status. Nevertheless we duly applied and that application was rejected.
“We were also informed by the SFA that Rangers FC had never in its long existence been a member. That really left us scratching our heads because pride of place in the Boardroom at Ibrox is a framed and mounted certificate of membership signed by Jim Farry confirming that “Rangers FC is a full member of the Scottish Football Association”.
“So taking the Commission’s reasoning and our newly acquired framed membership certificate you would have thought, not unreasonably, that Rangers FC and its owners were in the Scottish Football family.
“You would have thought wrong. No we were told. We needed to apply for oldco’s membership! The SFA didn’t officially recognise Lord Nimmo Smith’s recognisable entity.
“That recognisable entity, Rangers FC, then re-appeared suddenly when the SFA demanded that we pay oldco’s debts despite there being no legal obligation to do so.
“The SPL then wanted Rangers FC and its new owners to admit guilt in relation to EBT breaches that had never been framed and accept five stripped titles.
“Rangers FC suddenly vanished again when UEFA informed the SFA that Rangers FC were due in excess of 300,000 euros for player participation in the Euro 2012 qualifiers, the SFA have refused to confirm that the monies are due to Rangers FC despite obligations placed on them from UEFA that these monies should be distributed to member clubs.
“If the Commission is correct about this recognisable entity then the SPL and SFA must be wrong in making that entity apply to join bodies it was already in.
“Maybe they should both appoint Lord Nimmo Smith to form a Commission to investigate and tell them who their member is.
“In our view the Commission chaired by Lord Nimmo Smith has been placed in an invidious position by the SPL.
“The establishment of the Commission is the most striking example of the chaotic way the fate of Rangers has been handled by the football authorities.
“As we stated previously, it is impossible for us as a club to participate in a process we firmly believe is fundamentally misconceived.
“We believe that most people would not think it right that a football authority that was willing to horse-trade league titles and cups for league status, should then embark on the course of action it has chosen in setting up a Commission. There is no clearer case of moving the goalposts.”
Well Mr Green – If you have any questions relating to Lord Nimmo Smith’s differentiation of “Rangers FC” Oldco and Newco, I’m sure he will be happy to advise you when then commission meets in November.
What do you mean that you won’t be turning up to defend the interests of your Club or is it club?
Well … as many other commentators predicted, not only is Mr. Green biting the hand that tried to feed him but is positively devouring it. I wonder how many SPL chairmen are shifting uneasily as it finally dawns on them the true nature of the beast in Govan. If only they had applied the rules without fear or favour at the start …
Green chooses to spend his money on spin doctors, not lawyers.
Stuart and Neil – what have you done? You were asked by folks on high to do a favour and make sure there was a place near the top of the pile for the “fabric of Scottish society”. You went out of your way and muddied the waters and failed to apply the rules in order to push the agenda through. You messed around by not applying the rules that you have made a mockery of the rules…..and now LNS has to try to sort through your meanderings and has come up with a view of what the new entitiy is based on the laws and regulations you all applied to it.
Not staying in SPL nor SFL1 never pleased your pal who you asked to be kept informed by Petrie, even when he was not an SFA member. He promised you the earth to be given the golden ticket to SFA membership – now he has it he won’t play ball anymore.
Applying the rules fairly without fear or favour would not have meant CG would have any SFA membership. It would have been a brand new club – agreed by everyone. But you wanted to help him to get the Bears onside by letting him spout his was, now and forever stuff without reproach. You thought he would be thankful. You never thought he would go this far did you?
There’s hundred of us on here that will all same the say thing – you may not want to hear it – but its true
WE ALL TOLD YOU SO!
Looks like Charlie is cranking up the pressure to have Newco,Oldco or is it Sevco expelled suspended from SFA. he knows share issue wont return so he can blame SFA,SPL Lord Nimmo saying he tried and was thwarted at every turn and he can sell off assets and head for hills.
Just like to say that the quality of posting is returning to the forensic best seen on the RTC blog. When administrative issues, taxation regulations and football rules have to be dissected the blog has upped its game. And putting down our lamentable media in detailed, withering fashion is just a given.
(Well it was either that or just post:”test” )
“fundamentally misconceived” according to Mr Green. He is correct – in one sense.
To be honest, someone should rewind this movie, and do a re-take with the proper course of action, pronto. I doubt that involves repeating the actions of the administrators or a re-run of the clown-like comedy of the ‘stupidity of Scotland’ ((c) Charles Green) put on by messrs. Regan and Doncaster. They appear to have sown the wind.
TSFM @ 17:29
Wee naughty word slipped into a post, wrist duly slapped ….. By myself 🙂
Mirrenman – not that I doubted you – but best to also show the link so the doubting thomas folsk here can see for themselves 🙂
http://www.rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/item/2291-charles-green-statement
mirrenman says:
September 25, 2012 at 18:15
CHARLES GREEN, Rangers’ Chief Executive, issued the following statement today:
===========================
An absolutely classic use of spin, twisting words, using things out of context, half truths.
More fool those who believe it, and spend their money buying into it.
I have no sympathy left for them, Mr Green and anyone who buys into this deserve each other.
Him for fooling them, and them for believing him.
exiledcelt…..yes, you are correct, i should have mentioned the link.
ok all…ignore the weather. Get out there tonight and support your team ( if playing ) 😉
There is a certain twisted logic to that statement apparently written by Mr Green.
Chris Graham has been quiet recently, hasn’t he?
I know he’s not peddling his nonsense on Internet message-boards etc., but at this point would it not be reasonable to describe Mr. Charles as a “troll”?
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
43 3 Rate This
And we keep trying to be reasonable …
———–
That’s the difference between this blog and others. A badge of honour.
Well, the internet bampots did say this kind of thing would happen if the SFA and SPL refused to follow their own rules. They have created a monster (most like a zombie obviously) by their bumbling.
WE TOLD YOU SO STEWART AND NEIL!
See what “gratitude” you get for doing Sevco a favour? Beyond farce
Is Yorkie now getting close to the point where he is ready to argue that they are in fact a new club, which is what we’ve been saying all along? That means they lose the history and can’t be punished for the sins of the old. While that means they might be allowed to stay in Div 3, they lose the ‘most succesful club in the world’ schtick and titles can still be stripped from the oldco if found guilty re dual contracts. I know it doesn’t exclude the newco completely, but it’s still getting toward what we thought would be fair, isn’t it? The lack of sufficient income may lead to extinction anyway, as no one will want shares in a newco surely?
If he also calls out the authorities and leads to a clear out there too, all good.
Am I missing something big?
“Why would a caterpillar protect wasp cocoons from invaders? The wasps (of the genus Glyptapanteles ) are controlling the caterpillar.”
There was talk last week of zombies, but after reading the article linked below (from which the above is rip’t) I think we’re looking at the wrong zombie in all this. Rangers are not the zombie. They are the parasite. The SFA is the real zombie here, controlled by an invader to act against its own interests, even to the point of death, in order to carry out the bidding of the parasite. The parallels are both illuminating and fascinating.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=zombie-creatures-parasites
Logged on thinking it would have been a slow news day.
🙂
I agree thoroughly with exiledcelt and Geordie Bhoy above.
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:49
Yet again today several posters have wasted ( in my opinion) hours of time demolishing every strand of every post submitted by J McLure and to what end.
The blog is cluttered with posts trying to persuade one man that his opinions are nonsensical. He already knows that and will know it again tomorrow and Thursday, when he will attempt the same trick. On Friday he or another from the same stable will resume their charade, using a differing e-mail address. And we keep trying to be reasonable and respond as before.
Don’t keep falling for the same m.o. over and over again
—————————————————————————————————————————
smartie 1947, I think you need to change your name.
Try Patronising 1947.
How dare you question my participation on this forum?
Nonsensical or not, I’ll continue to post what I like, when I like and it is up to people to give their opinions whether they agree or not. And vice versa.
I’ll continue to put my point in a reasonable manner and from the same e-mail address and expect the same courtesy in return.
Try it.
I have read Chas Green’s latest statement and the points that he makes are reasonable from his point of view as much as I don’t want to admit it.
This problem has been caused by the administrators of our sport desperately trying to cobble together an agreement to save a bankrupt company/club. In so doing there has never been one iota of regret or humility from this club. Instead at every turn they have become more emboldened by the fact that the, so called, powers that be did not follow heir own rule book.
Make no mistake about it ND and SR have created this shambles because they simply could not grasp the enormity of the situation they were faced with.
Even if they had told Rangers to re-apply for a place in the league, and granted them admission, everyone would have known where they stood. A lot of fans might not have been happy as teams like Spartans and Cove Rangers, who would have fulfilled the criteria, would have been over looked and we would all have known that they were still the ‘establishment’ club. But ultimately Rangers would have been in Division 3 with no history and we would all have known it. The oldco Rangers fans would have known it too and it might even have allowed the decent fans the opportunity to reclaim their new club from the lunatic fringe.
But no in trying to breathe life into the corpse they have left the illusion that they are still the same club that has left at least £50M of debt behind while allowing the latest charlatan the opportunity to claim the history. This has actually turned out to be a CVA that was even cheaper than the CVA that was proposed.
That is the only thing that ND got right when he said that there was no difference between a CVA and Liquidation. Perhaps this is what he wanted all along.
Upon reflection, perhaps we have been too harsh on Campbell Ogilvie.
Without ‘the world’s greatest football administrator’ at the top of the SFA tree, just think how bad things could really be in Scottish football !
Campbell is surely directing a comprehensive, damage limitation exercise behind the scenes – for the benefit of Scottish football – but which us mere ‘plebs’ cannot see nor appreciate.
Without Campbell as SFA President, things could be a lot worse…erm…mibbees… 😉
j mclure @19.37
Notice how I did not make a “patronising” remark about your username.
Nor did I question your right to participate in this blog, nor your right to submit an opinion.
What I did suggest, to other posters, was the sheer futility of trying to engage with,argue against or reason with these same opinions.
As for the faux outrage, leave that to Mr Green, he’s better at it.
exiledcelt says:
September 25, 2012 at 17:50
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Thanks you very much Essex BC
Indeed he is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alastair_Johnston
Alastair Johnston was the chairman of Rangers Football Club. He is a native Glaswegian who divides his time between Glasgow and the USA where he has business interests. He succeeded David Murray as Rangers chairman on 26 August 2009
A graduate of the University of Strathclyde, he obtained an Accountancy Degree. In 2004, he was awarded Alumnus of the Year.
He holds the posts of vice-chairman and member of the board of directors of International Management Group (IMG), the leading international sports and entertainment group. His first client was Grand Slam champion pro golfer Gary Player, whom he has remained close to ever since.
Glasgow-born Johnston is a lifelong Rangers fan. Johnston, who made his name working for the late Mark McCormack, who built IMG, was Rangers director since 2004 but was removed by new Rangers owner Craig Whyte on 24th May 2011
=====================================================================
EC…thank you for the link and info therein.
Assuming that AJ is around the same age as myself, ( I am entitled to a free bus pass in Essex, but not in London), he must be around the same age as me…but Mrs EBC says I look much younger!), I can only assume that he did his degree from Strathclyde as a mature ( but wealthy) student…and all due credit to him. My days at Strathclyde are too far in the distance to remember now.
However, the pedant in me asks the question if he is a member of any recognised mainstream accounting bodies in the UK or even the USA. This is the crux of my question re morals and ethics…since his interpretation of the “admin errors” are simply beyond the pale.
There does seem to be a common thread with what I have heard Andrew Thornhill QC (!) and now others, say in respect of “poor Rangers” in that they got the “administration wrong”.
…and the band played…”…believe it if you like…!
essexbeancounter says:
September 25, 2012 at 20:03
exiledcelt says:
September 25, 2012 at 17:50
==========================
…AJ …However, the pedant in me asks the question if he is a member of any recognised mainstream accounting bodies in the UK or even the USA. This is the crux of my question re morals and ethics…since his interpretation of the “admin errors” are simply beyond the pale…
==========================
Sorry to gatecrash, but I had the same thoughts about AJ after his previous statement – and more so after this latest stream of misinformation.
I read an article about AJ some years ago, and I’m ‘reasonably’ sure he is an ICAS member.
IIRC – as a young whipper-snapper, he apparently accosted Mark McCormack at a golf event – I think – and talked himself into a job with IMG.
I thought he might now be ‘sailing close to the wind’ wrt to his public comments and his own body’s Code of Ethics ?
Sevco did not “own” Rangers FC until the SFA agreed to transfer RFC’s membership to them — with conditions attached after much discussion.
Green knows this. But he thinks most Rangers fans are idiots.
One glance at any of their online forums would confirm he might just be right.
CG’s statement is all bluster. He’s trying to make some bad news sound like good news.
“Lord Nimmo Smith has said that Rangers FC is a recognisable entity which continued in existence notwithstanding the change in ownership.
So you are that same entity and thus liable for all debts and actions against you? I don’t think you want to be acknowledging that xD
“He also stated that Rangers FC, the club, includes its owner and operator. The Commission has in effect ruled that Rangers and its history did not die on 14 June despite numerous reports to the contrary.
No Charles, you are trying to make what the commission has said mean what you want your fans to believe. If you are want to agree with the Lords findings that Rangers FC, the club, INCLUDES its owner and operator, then you can’t ignore the fact that this would mean your grubby little outfit are not Rangers FC as that club are being liquidated. No holding company or club being separate from company nonsense, just a thing called Rangers FC which is being hauled closer to the knackers yard day by day.
The rest of the statement is essentially worthless as it’s based on a false premise for me.
smartie1947 says:
September 25, 2012 at 16:55
The last major statement from Scottish football headquarters came out a minute before the start of the Olympic Games opening ceremony.
It’s only Midsomer Murders on tonight lads. Try to make it a bit earlier.
===============================================================
Smartie….Midsomer Murders has started…any news from “other parts”, eg Glasow G42…?
StevieBC says:
September 25, 2012 at 20:12
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essexbeancounter says:
September 25, 2012 at 20:03
exiledcelt says:
September 25, 2012 at 17:50
==========================
…AJ …However, the pedant in me asks the question if he is a member of any recognised mainstream accounting bodies in the UK or even the USA. This is the crux of my question re morals and ethics…since his interpretation of the “admin errors” are simply beyond the pale…
==========================
Sorry to gatecrash, but I had the same thoughts about AJ after his previous statement – and more so after this latest stream of misinformation.
I read an article about AJ some years ago, and I’m ‘reasonably’ sure he is an ICAS member.
IIRC – as a young whipper-snapper, he apparently accosted Mark McCormack at a golf event – I think – and talked himself into a job with IMG.
I thought he might now be ‘sailing close to the wind’ wrt to his public comments and his own body’s Code of Ethics ?
=======================================================================
StevieBC….gatecrashers with such informative posts are always welcome in Essex…!
I will search the ICAS site…if I can remember my login and passwords…!
However, as a “late entrant”, I would suggest that his concepts of morality and ethics are most likely to have been tainted by business life with IMG in the USofA
>>“I am owed £330,000 by UEFA and the SFA have refused to hand it over because they are saying I’m not entitled to it.
I’m just a dim electrical engineer – but surely the payment is due to the creditors of oldco – which is of course nothing to do with Hughie…
essexbeancounter @ 20:18
Strangely NO? Maybe they’re waiting for tonight’s results 😉
Word from one of jabba’s team is that the SFL are under increasing pressure to compromise or ditch the commission in its entirety, why am I not surprised, this is supposed to be jabba’s big exclusive that he is sitting on.
They are saying he is going to expose the bust up with the lawyer as the lead, conflicts of interest and by quoting the bust up verbatim show total prejudice.
Thats the usual batch of 3 statements duly despatched by RFC(IA), AJ, AMc and CG. If you notice, they have been using this strategy for months.
Remember SDM, MB and AMcLeish not a few weeks ago?
I wonder who/what the next 3 will be, Hmmmmmmm
I’ll go for CO, G Souness and Doddsy (again)
Brenda says:
September 25, 2012 at 20:37
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essexbeancounter @ 20:18
Strangely NO? Maybe they’re waiting for tonight’s results
========================================================================
Brenda…many thanks…Mrs EBC is watching MSM…(no not them…!) Results will have to wait!
PS I noticed you indulged in a little “self-moderation”…well intentioned no doubt !
🙂 self discipline 🙂
Ever since Lord Nimmo Smith released that statement on the SPL website, I’ve been waiting for this kind of statement from Charles Green.
I just couldn’t get the logic behind page 2 of LNS’s statement:
“History
[3] Rangers Football Club was founded in 1872 as an association football club. It was incorporated in 1899 as The Rangers Football Club Limited. In recent years the company’s name was changed to The Rangers Football Club Plc, and it is now called RFC 2012 Plc (in administration). In line with the terminology used in the correspondence between the parties, we shall refer to this company as “Oldco”.
[4] … The club owned and operated by Oldco played in the League from 1998 until 2012 under the name of Rangers Football Club (“Rangers FC”).
[6] On 14 June 2012 a newly incorporated company, Sevco Scotland Limited, purchased substantially all the business and assets of Oldco, including Rangers FC”
I read this as Nimmo Smith stating:
a. Rangers FC was founded in 1872 as an association football club.
b. It incorporated in 1899 as The Rangers Football Club Limited. So the club was then called The Rangers Football Club Limited.
c. The company’s name was changed to The Rangers Football Club Plc. OK, so the club was then called The Rangers Football Club Plc
d. We shall refer to this company as Oldco.
e. The club owned and operated by Oldco played in the League from 1998 until 2012.
f. Sevco bought the club from the oldco.
But hold on, what happened between d and e? Oldco WAS THE CLUB LNS said so – see a,b and c.
What happened between d and e that changed Oldco from a football club into a business that owned and operated a football club? A business that could then sell said football club to Sevco, and then liquidate?
What happened? What changed? LNS doesn’t say. No explanation offered. It just changed, OK?
And as soon as you take that at face value, it gives licence to CG to claim that he owns the same Rangers FC that was founded in 1872. A high court judge said so.
Brenda says:
September 25, 2012 at 20:49
self discipline
=====================================================================
…best not go there…ouch!
essexbeancounter
Lmao!!
I had to laugh. David Leggat, in his Tuesday blog, is once more waxing lyrical about our intrepid Channel Four reporter. For some unknown reason Blotto is now calling Alex Thomson “a prancing prattling poltroon of a poseur”.
In the last couple of days we have had Green, McCoist, Johnstone, Traynor and the MSM flaying punches in all directions Could Jack Irvine be embarking on a concerted campaign to direct the artillery at Hampden ahead of Lord NS’s commission?
I saw RTC’s flurry of activity on Twitter this morning (circa 9 a.m.) I wonder if it was his timely reminder to the SFA that we are watching them, should they attempt to pull the wool over our eyes with their imminent statement?
1,360 Responses to Make our Mind Up Time
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mirrenman says:
September 25, 2012 at 18:15
1 7 Rate This
CHARLES GREEN, Rangers’ Chief Executive, issued the following statement today:
“This means that Rangers FC and its owner, i.e. me and my consortium, remained a member of the SPL even after the change of ownership.”
————–
Far be it for me to introduce religion into the debate but, if I were to go all Dave Allen-ish, isn’t Charlie’s view bordering on the concept of the transmigration of souls? With the eternal (debt-free mind you) soul of Rangers occupying a newco body?
I understood that to be a heretical notion. But perhaps the Vanguard Bears and their ilk are now open to a bit of alternative fitba theology and, in reality, more catholic (small ‘c’) in their views than anyone ever imagined?
🙂
SFA statement due within next 48 hours.