Good Morning,
In the last week, we have seen a number of strange occurrences in Scottish Football, which if taken together might just point to a very different land than the one we were lead to believe we live in just two short years ago.
First of all there was the report from a firm of well known accountants which pronounced that a significant number of Scottish Football Clubs had, in fact, sold more season tickets for this coming season than they had in the course of the last several years.
Then we had the spectacle of the National team travelling to Wembley and playing very well AND being cheered on by a very large travelling support who appear to have been full of fun and who acquitted themselves well in the big smoke.
This morning I read that today’s match at Pittodrie is a sell out — with the old stadium being packed to the rafters for the visit of Celtic. This is the first time that Aberdeen have been able to sell out the fixture for some 6 years!
Not only that, various Celtic supporting websites have lead with articles saying that the return of a strong Aberdeen and Dundee United are to be welcomed– in fact not only welcomed but positively wished for.
In contrast, stories abound about the in fighting on the Ibrox Board. There are surreptitious share dealings and all sorts of company jockeying being deployed by the rival factions who are trying to gain control of The Rangers. Further, there is the suggestion from some well informed parties that not only will Ibrox and the Albion be sold and leased back to the club to generate much needed immediate cash, but that Murray Park has been sold off completely and will no longer be available to The Rangers for any purpose whatsoever!
Clearly, there are big troubles at the club which will not assist in the stated intention of rising to the very top in Scottish Football.
In between all of this, the debate goes on about Campbell Ogilvie, Press manipulation, the correspondence between Media House and the SFA, and between The SFA and Ibrox re the relationship between Charlie Green and Craig Whyte and so on.
Standing with my business hat on, I looked at all of this and wondered what it all meant, and pretty quickly reached the conclusion that we are now in a time of supreme opportunity for some of the clubs in Scottish Football—- particularly Aberdeen FC.
There is a view abroad, that in the absence of the “Strong Rangers” that Celtic Football Club will win the SPFL title for almost evermore — or at least until they are toppled from the top spot by the rise of a strong Rangers club somewhere towards the end of this decade or early in the next– because we are assured that they will be back– in one form or another– in a rather Arnold Schwarzenegger like fashion.
That return or initial rise if you like– its timing and its manner— is dependent on a number of things– not least the exit strategy of Charlie Green and his cohorts.
If it is true that The Rangers are going to part company with Ibrox and the Albion, that they have taken on a loan of funds which attract a rate of interest that amounts to 15% per annum, and that there are set figures for buying the old ( and decaying ) stadium back any time soon, and that they have yet again hawked the season ticket money, then the already flawed Ibrox business plan is burdened even more by interest and rent payments of an additional £3M per annum and rising!
It should also be noted that the accounts for old co from the mid naughties onwards boasted that season ticket sales, merchandising, corporate hospitality and so on had reached unprecedented levels—- but—- the club still did not make an operating profit without strange internals transactions such as the repurchase of media rights which added £15M on to the P&L’s AND the sale of Jean Alain Boomsong!
Accordingly, the current position will not make for good financial reading.
So– let’s presume that in the current climate Celtic are out of sight and will always be champions for ever and a day. What do the rest of the clubs say in the absence of the Ibrox club without whom they have been told they will perish?
Well, If I were in charge of Aberdeen FC I would look out across a city with an inherent population of some 220,000 souls sitting in a county which takes the population up by another 40,000 or so. I would note that the compact city also houses two universities and a number of colleges — all of which attract visitors to the city— and that its position as the oil capital of Europe also draws in a substantial number of itinerant workers.
Further, personal knowledge shows that many who studied at Aberdeen University or Robert Gordon’s in the 80’s left the city as Aberdeen FC fans and no matter where they have ended up in life they still make the journey back to Pittodrie when they can– especially in good times!
Alas, however, Aberdeen has not enjoyed ” Good Times” of late— in fact not really since ……….. the arrival of David Murray at Ibrox!
If you cast your mind back to the pre Murray era, Aberdeen were a force not only in Scotland but Europe as the recent nostalgia re Gothenburg has reminded us.
The city has an economic micro climate which suggests that it can ride economic hardship better than most and so all things considered this current period provides a great opportunity for the Dons.
Unlike Dundee United, Hearts, and Hibs, Aberdeen FC sits in a large one team conurbation and should be on the doorstep of a populace which can fill Pittodrie every single week …… IF that fan base can be motivated.
And there lies the rub– how do you get a notoriously fickle fan base out of the armchair and into the stadium?
The late Bob Crampsey once described Pittodrie by saying ” And there are the masses of Aberdeen fans, masquerading as rows and rows of Empty seats!” yet in their heydey an Aberdeen crowd on a visit to Glasgow were among the noisiest– and to this football fans eyes — the scariest ( in a good sense ) supports to be seen.
Well, at this juncture, Derek McInnes and team need only look at every other football club in the land ( bar Celtic ) and determine that come next May those others will be below them in the league. If Aberdeen maintain a strong league run keeping everyone behind them then there is the possibility of a huge revenue swing in favour of the Dons– such a swing that would put them in an even stronger position for the following year.
Further, Aberdeen are a European name. Perhaps a European name from yesteryear and not the recent past, but the pedigree is there and as such there will be those who remember the heady European Nights both home and away. Reviving those memories and that reputation– at least to an extent– is not beyond the club, and with no disrespect to Motherwell and St Johnstone both of whom are liable to lose key players or even a manager between seasons, Aberdeen may just be of a size to consolidate each year rather than scramble to maintain the momentum of one good season which comes along every now and then.
Financial management and football rewards can go hand in hand when combined properly, and of all the clubs in Scotland who can benefit from a level playing field in terms of proper football governance, Aberdeen FC are uniquely placed in my opinion.
That is not so say that The Arabs, or the Hibees or anyone else cannot benefit– on the contrary— but the Dons are the most obvious candidates in terms of potential structure to really motor forward and regain a by gone status.
Such a situation, and the recognition of that potential, should be borne in mind by all at Celtic Football Club, as last year they struggled for a period in the league while they concentrated on their European exploits. If Celtic want to go further and further in Europe ( and why shouldn’t they ) they will have to be wary of any club which is capable of reigniting its fortunes from a lowly position or a position of having to look back at glory and potential glory rather than looking forward.
Further, with the way things are being organised at Ibrox, there is absolutely no guarantee ( some would say likelihood ) that an eventual challenge to a perceived dominance by Celtic will come from that quarter, and life in the top flight for any returning Rangers could prove very difficult if the likes of Aberdeen get their act together and start to produce the type of home grown team of old.
For now, I sense a degree of optimism about the Dons– not just on the playing front either. They have a fan base, they have a business model and a good young manager, and any comparative business exercise must conclude that they have every chance of rising above most of their rivals in the league, in terms of revenue, in terms of brand development and business expansion.
If I were an Aberdeen fan I would like to think positive and be ambitious in this climate, whilst at the same time casting an eye back to the days when they were top of the tree.
As one Aberdeen supporting ( but now Edinburgh based ) friend put it to me:
” Ah, those were the days my friend, those were the days……………”
Tif Finn says:
August 24, 2013 at 5:23 pm
…..and ex-PricewaterhouseCoopers accountancy expert Frank Blin.
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Just settling down with my first glass of Gavi, (it’s a superb Italian white wine, as I am sure Slimshady will corroborate for fellow posters), and simply ask the question…”What is an accountancy expert…?”…and does the description of “ex-PriceWaterhouseCoopers” make him any more or less credible?
bobferris says:
August 24, 2013 at 1:49 pm
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Feel free to be sick fed up.
It is a fact that many Kilmarnock fans celebrated every goal scored by Rangers in another stadium while their team was losing. It is a fact the Kilmarnock Manager urged his players to waste time while they were losing 4-0. It is also an undisputed fact that one one of the main players for Rangers that day (Ronald De Boer) could never have played for Rangers had they not been able to pay him through a tax avoidance scheme proven illegal beyond dispute.
No wonder Celtic fans get sick and fed up.
£20 tickets, then again ?
Althetim says:
August 24, 2013 at 9:28 pm
had my ears assaulted by Chic Young
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Great description Al, he was doing my nut in. The guy is no easy on the ear at all. I have every sympathy with folk that stutter and/or stammer, but I draw the line when they get put on national radio ffs!!!
Add to that the wee involuntary whistles he lets oot while uttering the letter S, grrr. I swear when he said succes earlier, it was like a shepherd whistling on 3 dugs! 😆
upthehoops says:
August 24, 2013 at 10:25 pm
Feel free to be sick fed up.
It is a fact that many Kilmarnock fans celebrated every goal scored by Rangers in another stadium while their team was losing. It is a fact the Kilmarnock Manager urged his players to waste time while they were losing 4-0. It is also an undisputed fact that one one of the main players for Rangers that day (Ronald De Boer) could never have played for Rangers had they not been able to pay him through a tax avoidance scheme proven illegal beyond dispute.
No wonder Celtic fans get sick and fed up.
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Evidence?
RyanGosling says:
August 24, 2013 at 10:33 pm
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The evidence is there. Anyone present at the game can testify to the Killie fans celebrating and their Manager urging them to waste time. It is also a fact that the ‘wee tax case’ Rangers admitted to but didn’t pay had Ronald De Boer as a beneficiary.
RyanGosling says:
August 24, 2013 at 10:33 pm
And I gave you the benefit of the doubt?!!!!!!!!!
Haha Jean7brodie – I hadn’t heard anyone previously claim it as a “known fact” that the manager had been urging players to waste time, and just wondered if there was evidence of this or if it was more a widely held opinion. The De Boer EBT thing I was obviously aware of and aware of the evidence. Don’t worry I ain’t trolling – don’t take away my benefit of the doubt just yet! 🙂
A good start would be lobby these MSPs all members of the Health and Sport committee, hit the SFA where it will hurt, their Scot Gov funding
____________________________________________________________________________________
While they are on the trail of illicit betting, has the SFA enquired if any Scottish referees have ever wagered a bet on a Scottish football match?
Whilst on the subject, Craig Thomson showed his true colours again today. There were 5 substitutions, the ICT goalkeeper received attention for at least 2 minutes for a mysterious injury, he warned one ICT player for time wasting, booked another for time wasting all the time pointing at his watch, and then added on only 3 minutes.
In addition, of the 8 Celtic free kicks, only on the last one did he pace out 10 metres for the defensive wall, whilst on at least 6 other occasions the wall was no more than 5 metres away from the ball yet he refused to enforce the rules. It became most ludicrous with a free kick near the corner flag when he allowed the ICT defenders to stand nearer the ball than the distance marker used at corners.
No doubt he will get a pat on the back and a handshake when he walks into FES’s offices on Monday morning, another job well done.
Having said all of that, well done ICT for contributing to excellent entertainment and whilst it would have been nice to see the match adjudicated according to the laws of the game, no one would deny Terry Butcher’s men a point.
Picked up the Daily Mail today only to find the report on ‘The Rangers’ game was so far into the sport section it was almost close to the middle of the paper. I wonder if this was because Media House were no longer pushing the party line. It will be interesting to see that, now they are back on the payroll, whether they start to make the back pages again.
As for the betting discussions today on the radio well it almost made my ears bleed. Interesting Tom English had a go a McCoist for saying the rule was ambiguous. Some pundits saying the SFA shouldn’t be taking money from betting companies in sponsorship, one said that an SPFL player had told him that he had received a voucher for a £50 free bet.
Well knock me down with a feather!
Perhaps someone should have asked him if the bet had to be used on football or could it be used on cricket, baseball, ice hockey, horse racing etc.
Another line was that everyone is at it so it is really alright!!!
This one took the biscuit. Imagine if, when they changed the offside law, some players decided just to stay five yards behind the last defender and when the ball came to them the took the ball, ignored the whistle, and scored or missed from a resulting shot. Question; would the goal be allowed? Somehow I don’t think so and the reason is because THAT IS THE RULES.
What is it these cretins fail to understand?
They are an embarrassment to coordinated, joined up intelligent thinking.
A genuine thought would die of loneliness in their heads.
upthehoops says:
August 24, 2013 at 10:25 pm
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It appears that you sir, are ever so slightly paranoid.
Never heard of winding up the opposition fans at a football match? Even after you admitting that away Celtic fans openly celebrated whilst seated amongst home fans? What exactly did you think would happen?
Any time I’ve been in the unfortunate position of only being able to see my team from the opposition end, I know to keep a low profile no matter the result (mainly through nothing more than good manners). Jumping up and down like a clown to celebrate a goal in the wrong end only antagonises the fans around you.
If I did openly celebrate at goal whilst sitting in the wrong end, I would expect to have my erse handed back to me on a plate by the other fans if the end result didn’t go my teams way.
The fact that Killie were losing to Celtic meant not jot to me, it happens quite regularly anyway if you haven’t already noticed. Part and parcel of supporting a “wee” team, it was an end of season game with nothing at stake. If winding up the Celtic fans meant cheering another team scoring goals, so be it. Hardly crime of the century.
As a football fan, does the above really need to be explained to you?
Just you go away and wallow in your paranoia about how everyone’s out to get Celtic. On this site, it’s always about poor wee Celtic.
Anyway, it was 10 years ago, get a life and move on.
justshatered says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:01 am
I think when Rangers became aware of the Ian Black charge the correct statements to be made should have been thus:
1) In this country, everyone is innocent until proven guilty
2) Having said that, it is inappropriate to select a player with this allegation hanging over them, so until the case is resolved, and with no stain on his character, Ian Black will not be selected for Rangers.
3) Rangers unreservedly condemn any betting by players on matches in which they are or could be involved
4) Furthermore, Rangers do not agree that professional football players should be betting on any professional football match in any circumstance
5) We welcome any investigation into this matter and will co-operate in the fullest.
Anything Rangers / Ally McCoist have said since that does not align with the above I believe to have been a bad and incorrect course of action.
As far as betting in football / sport goes on the whole – I personally don’t think it should be allowed. It undermines the whole concept of sporting fairness if any player may have a personal financial stake in any game / event / contest. Whether people should be allowed to bet on sport at all goes beyond the remit of sporting authorities, but I wouldn’t lose any sleep if it was banned.
RyanGosling says:
August 24, 2013 at 11:18 pm
Haha Jean7brodie – I hadn’t heard anyone previously claim it as a “known fact” that the manager had been urging players to waste time, and just wondered if there was evidence of this or if it was more a widely held opinion. The De Boer EBT thing I was obviously aware of and aware of the evidence. Don’t worry I ain’t trolling – don’t take away my benefit of the doubt just yet!
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Unfortunately, Ryan, “the De Boer EBT thing” is the crux of the matter. Back then, in those halcyon days, a lot of English Clubs could not afford the players that Rangers were buying. During SDM’s days, what would a decent Top Level English Club pay for the likes of Gascoigne, Hately, Laudrup, De Boer, Butcher, Souness, etc, etc.
Not as much as SDM was offering, that’s for sure !
Why ply your trade in The SPL at “The Top of your game” ?
Oh, Silly Me !
“You’re paying me how much ? After Tax ? Where do I sign ?”
RyanGosling , I’m interested in your comment “The De Boer EBT thing I was obviously aware of and aware of the evidence” !
Can you expand ? What evidence is it that you speak of ?
After all, You asked the same question earlier of upthehoops at 1025 tonight, a reminder below :
upthehoops says:
August 24, 2013 at 10:25 pm
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So, please Ryan, what was the evidence against De Boer ?
fergussingstheblues says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:22 am
Fair point Fergus. Firstly I’d point out that Laudrup, Hateley, Gascoigne etc. were pre EBT, and there is no suggestion of wrongdoing (as far as I’m aware) with their compensation.
As far as the evidence for the De Boer EBT, I’m taking as evidence the fact that it has been discussed at length here, the circumstantial evidence that he was undoubtedly one of the highest earners during the “EBT period”, and without meaning to be deliberately vague all of the other things regularly cited here and elsewhere. My point was more regarding the fact that that issue relates to wages, contracts etc., things that are in print and can be proven. What I was asking of the earlier poster was similar evidence that there was a deliberate attempt by Kilmarnock to ensure Celtic didn’t win the league in that year, which I grant the fact I’m reading between the lines, was what I took him to be saying. If you want me to go away and find some of the “evidence” I cited above I’ll try. But I believe that on this forum much of that is accepted as fact and has been proven previously.
Althetim says:
August 24, 2013 at 9:28 pm
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Your main points aside, just for accuracy, the game on Wednesday is not worth that much to Celtic. It might be if it was all or nothing but that simply isn’t the case.
Celtic are already in the Europa Group stages if that game goes against them. Which I would say is more likely than not. However not by a huge margin, it is still possible for Celtic to go through.
So one shouldn’t be comparing CL football with no European football at all. That is just nonsense.
I estimate that Celtic will make c£8m from the Europa league without doing particularly well. The game on Wednesday is worth what it is worth, minus what Celtic will earn from the Europa league.
However that clearly doesn’t suit that discredited hack’s pathetic agenda. More fool anyone who listens to and believes him.
RyanGosling says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:17 am
I think when Ranger became aware of the Ian Black charge the correct statements to be made should have been thus:
1) In this country, everyone is innocent until proven guilty
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Unless you have evidence that Mr Black has been charged with a criminal offence that is typical propaganda nonsense.
For example if HMRC raise an assessment of tax due then the tax is due until the taxpayer proves otherwise. Nothing to do with guilt or innocence, it is not a criminal matter.
Ah Tif Finn, you have caught me out with that one. But please allow me to take objection to your “propaganda nonsense” – I still think that would have been the right statement to make. Its not a criminal proceeding but the same rules regarding innocence should apply. He’s been accused, not found guilty. Do you think a charge should be evidence of guilt? I’m not trying to be provocative, merely raising the point.
The second point you raise is…I actually typed about six things there, thinking we were getting into much deeper tax discussion and then read your comment again, and I agree obviously. Not that there is scope for opinion lol – as you say, rules are rules.
RyanGosling says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:43 am
fergussingstheblues says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:22 am
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I have to admit, you’ve given me a good and honest reply back Ryan.
However, I still stand by asking why our little country could attract players like Laudrup, Hateley, Gascoigne etc, whilst the “Big Clubs” in England couldn’t ! But, as you say, there is no suggestion of wrongdoing.
I’ll throw the question out there for further debate.
Why would fully fledged International Footballers really want to come to Scotland in the late 80’s /early 90’s and play at places every 2 weeks like Paisley, Perth, Motherwell, Airdrie, Greenock, Falkirk, Dunfermnline, etc.
I bet they hated it (no pun intended in the present “betting climate”), but I can surely bet that they loved their Monthly Wage Slips !
I guess my point is, those players did not come to Scotland for their love of the game ?
On the shenanigan’s of 10 years ago, honestly, I couldn’t give an opinion one way or another. I only remember watching it on the telly on holiday at Loch Lomond. It was a weird day, all down to goal difference ! Everyone went back to their homes/ caravans / tents afterwards, happy that we all had a good day (Green and Blue especially).
It wasn’t until a few days later in the MSM that Mr Sutton’s remarks were sifting through.
It kind of caught us all by surprise, and is still debated 10 years on !
The Good Old Days !
Best Wishes from an old f$£t who has lived through “The Good Old Day’s”.
Scottish Football now ? Not what it was like in My day !
To pick up on a point mentioned previously…
If Jack is back – like a bad smell – then Traynor is out, especially after his childish statement the other day, which finished with the ‘Jack has nothing to do with TRFC’ disclaimer. Oh dear, rather poor timing there by the Director of Communications who appears to be ‘out the loop’ at TRFC.
Or perhaps Traynor doesn’t do walking away…unless a suitably large pay off is involved…
Now there’s a surprise the SSB podcast for Saturday is not available?? Looks like they’re trying to cover something up!! What could it be I wonder???
Fergus, appreciate your response.
Without a doubt the pay cheque was the big draw for these guys. But then if you look at some of them in the 90s – Laudrup hadn’t been a huge success in Italy, Gazza had had a lot of issues, a lot of the English teams probably had a look at them and didn’t fancy it. And I think you’ve highlighted them because they were a success, there were a lot of similar calibre of players (Boli is the first one that springs to mind) that didn’t work out. The one that stands out for me is Larsson – why on earth did no premiership team fancy him for 650k?!
You’re right in the end, most of the guys came to our small shores for the cash. But in all of those cases in the 90s and onwards, I doubt that they would have done so if they could have gotten a good move in England. There aren’t many cases of Scottish teams taking on top notch players in their peak. Indeed, there are far more stories of players leaving Scotland and doing great things – loads of Champions League winners have previously played in Scotland, but few have come to Scotland having won it.
StevieBC says:
August 25, 2013 at 1:50 am
To pick up on a point mentioned previously…
If Jack is back – like a bad smell – then Traynor is out, especially after his childish statement the other day, which finished with the ‘Jack has nothing to do with TRFC’ disclaimer. Oh dear, rather poor timing there by the Director of Communications with his finger on the pulse…not.
Or perhaps Traynor doesn’t do walking away…unless a suitably large pay off is involved…
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Like I said earlier, Stevie, It’s all set for a Gunfght at The O.K. Corral (aka Ibrox).
May the best man win !
Chill out, sit back and laugh ! It’s gonna be fun !
RyanGosling says:
August 25, 2013 at 2:05 am
There aren’t many cases of Scottish teams taking on top notch players in their peak.
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There was one that started the SDM infactuation with the Champions League. I give you Terry Butcher, England Captain, signed for Rangers straight after Maradona and The Hand of God had despatched England from the ’86 World Cup. Surely Terry was a top notch player in his peak ?
Sorry, I’m actually being disengenous to Big Tel. He has actually settled here, and by all accounts loving life in The Highlands.
Suppose I would be the same if SDM gave me the same opportunity in those days ? Loadsa Money !
Ironically, I’d love to know how many ex- RFC employees now have more more Capital than SDM ?
Selling his Prized Asset for £1 ? That would probably have paid for at least 2 Toilet Rolls from Poundland !
Night All !
…and as for McCoist…
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear …
Along with Ogilvie, IMO, McCoist is harming Scottish football now just by his presence.
…and then McCoist opens his mouth and manages to squeeze both feet in his gob!
I am starting to feel embarrassed for the very rich, and very thick ‘cheeky chappie’.
…and I wonder if he has his SFL3 Manager of the Year award / plastic saucer on his mantelpiece?
Full-timers against part-timers over a full season? Great sporting achievement McCoist. 🙄
Brenda re missing podcast
Surely they wouldnt be so stupid as to try and hide this,oh I forgot.
Tom English article on Ally McCoist’s latest words of wisdom
http://www.scotsman.com/news/tom-english-considering-mccoist-s-words-on-black-1-3062037?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
fergussingstheblues says:
August 25, 2013 at 2:08 am
Like I said earlier, Stevie, It’s all set for a Gunfght at The O.K. Corral (aka Ibrox).
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I’ve been thinking of Traynor v Media House as less Gunfight at the OK Corral, and more like the scene from Goodfellas where Joe Pesci’s character walks into a house thinking he’s going to be a ‘made man’ only to find that because of his previous behaviour, things go badly for him. (Trying not to write this as too much of a spoiler if you haven’t seen the film!)
(PS In case of doubt, this is intended as a light hearted allegory, in no way am I seriously comparing any of the characters involved to either (a) a bullying loudmouth who shoots first and asks questions…well, never, or (b) a Mafia type organisation.)
ecobhoy says:
August 24, 2013 at 6:52 pm
25 2 Rate This
… Unfortunately for Chick he wasn’t blessed for much of an intelligence quotient but the up-side is he has provided the rest of us with much hilarity over the years.
What he is failing to see is that betting sponsorship is out in the open and isn’t secret. I would agree to a rule change as long as players had to declare when they voted against their own team – transparency is a great thing and I’m sure your player friends will love your intervention chick .
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Chick on Sportsound Extra yesterday: opinionated incoherence.
Kenny Shiels: ‘What is a football club? A football club is to give to the community … giving to the community.’ Marvelous quote, on an otherwise forgettable broadcast. The programme needs to let some callers on, reading out texts and tweets not enough.
Earlier, Tam Cowan disappointing on the betting issue on OtB. The yin of Tam does not work without the yang of Stuart.
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/rangers-craig-mather-hires-pr-guru-jack-irvine-1-3061944
Mather on hiring JI:
“The board also felt that there are huge public misconceptions about the financial realities of the club and once again this was a failure of communication.”
Instead of hiring Jack Irvine, wasn’t it cheaper to just publish the accounts then?
upthehoops says:
August 25, 2013 at 7:34 am
2 1 Rate This
On the subject of the amount of added time at Celtic Park yesterday.
…
Yet in England it is not uncommon for six or seven minutes to be added, and while this is jokingly referred to as ‘Fergie time’ there is a serious point to be considered.
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I remember watching something many years ago, where they had worked out that most football matches don’t have much more than 60 minutes playing time. I don’t know if that was true or if it has changed but it would not surprise me at all. Perhaps we could look to rugby again and stop the clock on occasion?
From an earlier post thru the night.
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Your main points aside, just for accuracy, the game on Wednesday is not worth that much to Celtic. It might be if it was all or nothing but that simply isn’t the case.
Celtic are already in the Europa Group stages if that game goes against them. Which I would say is more likely than not. However not by a huge margin, it is still possible for Celtic to go through.
So one shouldn’t be comparing CL football with no European football at all. That is just nonsense.
I estimate that Celtic will make c£8m from the Europa league without doing particularly well. The game on Wednesday is worth what it is worth, minus what Celtic will earn from the Europa league.
>>>>Chelsea won £4.25M for winning the Europa League and were given £26.5M for going out in the CL group stage. Celtic made 23M roughly from last year. There is a massive massive difference from being in either comp.
scottc says:
August 25, 2013 at 8:04 am
1 0 Rate This
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Good point. At the rate footballers fall about though matches could take longer than an Ashes test 😮
I think we’re onto a sticky wicket regarding the time-wasting, at least if ref bias is inferred. It is certainly a widespread problem. There was huge outrage among Swedish supporters about what appeared to be playing for time in the away leg in Elfsborg. And some of the antics of the Scottish champions did indeed look like time-wasting. A particular incident with Samaras was just embarrassing. Not sure how much time was added on by the ref as I left right on 90min. To balance up the Craig Thomson critique, he actually looked to have missed an obvious, though cunning, push on an ICT player through on goal by the too-cute-for-my-taste Virgil. If new-boy Virgil continues his Kazakh shirt-pulling from the first leg, I can see some nasty set-pieces being conceded.
Suffice to say I think these types of issues only lead to circular arguments on here 😉
Police Scotland
There is no evidence at all the fire had anything to do with football
It would appear to be nothing more than a coincidence that the rangers team bus was at the depot
The investigation team are focusing localy to try to uncover the real motive for the attack.
There is no sectarian or football related motivation
Mr McCoist at the time.
I think it is pathetic that people would go to these extremes.
It sounds like a premeditated attack on a rangers bus and I am gutted about it
Another utterance from Ally that endorses the saying ,if brains where a disease he would be the healthiest man alive
I wonder whether Mather knew Jack Irvine was now working for the club, or whether one of the ballboys told him. You have to think they are spending more time and money on fighting in-house fires, boardroom fights, betting scandals, disgruntled fan group meetings, empty vessel ‘consultants’ hired & fired, and former directors suing the club…than actually running the club. It is hard to keep up ! Mather seems well out of his depth…he should speak to Jim Traynor, who enjoys it as a permanent state of being.
Tom English’s article looks like it was written for TSFM and sent to his newspaper by mistake!
Scottish football needs much more of this kind of thing in the MSM.
Is it not the case that, and I’ve yet to hear one pundit mention it, that as well as the c22.2 million that Celtic received from uefa for the champions league participation, they also had six games with near full attendances bringing in another 16million (est).
Added to the season ticket and tranfer money its wise that Charlie didn’t follow up on his ludicrous battle of the balance sheets statement.
upthehoops says:
August 25, 2013 at 7:17 am
=============================================================
Woah there soldier! I never gave an opinion the Tax Schemes in my reply to you, so don’t assume to know my views. That’s not what I was replying to.
Your initial and main point in your last three posts was about Killie fans “celebrating” Rangers scoring. Nope, we were winding up Celtic fans openly antagonising Killie fans in their own end by celebrating while Killie were getting one our regular humpings by the old firm. Celtic did win that day 4-0 did they not?
It’s not a nice feeling having an away team winning a title at a football ground, no matter who it is. Even more so when they are sitting all around you in your own end. Cast your mind back to 1999 and compare how the Celtic fans reacted and that was a segregated crowd.
The way I read it, you were insinuating that everyone on that day had some sort of pro-Rangers anti-Celtic agenda that day. Sorry to burst your bubble, but for Killie fans it was petty football rivalry and nothing else. I can’t speak for the SFA or Scottish referees as I don’t have any evidence.
Me petty? Guilty as charged, it’s not the worst thing I’ve been called.
Radiccio says:
August 25, 2013 at 9:18 am
Sorry to burst your bubble, but for Killie fans it was petty football rivalry and nothing else. I can’t speak for the SFA or Scottish referees as I don’t have any evidence.Me petty? Guilty as charged, it’s not the worst thing I’ve been called.
————
A friend I used to work with was a mad Killie fan who was as petty and funny as they come and he said it didnt matter what team came to visit, the songs were always designed to GIRUY. This is the joy of football banter. There’s few things better 😉 Fans of ‘wee’ teams have to display a level of self deprecation bigger teams seldom do. No team supporters like getting their noses rubbed in it, but you’ve got to take it now and again. Celtic failing on the last day was Celtic’s failing over the season & not any conspiracy. I’m sure it was a Killie game a long time ago Celtic were giving them a thumping and an otherwise browbeaten Killie support started singing ‘We’re not singing, we’re not singing, we’re not singing any more….’ Brilliant.
Interesting stuff about RFC 1872 absence from inaugural SFA meeting on Jim Craig’s increasingly entertaining Scottish Football History Blog
wp.me/p2CZE9-P
redlichtie says:
August 25, 2013 at 9:12 am
4 0 Rate This
Tom English’s article looks like it was written for TSFM and sent to his newspaper by mistake!
Scottish football needs much more of this kind of thing in the MSM.
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Too right @redlichtie. Great piece, exposing hypocrisy, double speak and plain old ignorance on the part of the highly-paid manager. Glad he highlighted Sandaza too. Feel for that lad. Hope he got a proper settlement.
andygraham.66 says:
August 25, 2013 at 8:10 am
Of course there is a massive difference between the potential earnings from the two competitions, I didn’t say there wasn’t, just that what Chic Young said was not accurate and was deliberately misleading.
The game on Wednesday is worth the difference between what Celtic are likely to make by being in the CL and what they are likely to make by being in the EL, adjusted for tax and other expenses obviously. For example the bonus structures for the players are likely to be different, for the two competitions whilst the cost to the fans for three match packages are likely to be the same. The attendances are also likely to be similar, as are the matchday sales.
My point is that taking what these propagandists say at face value, as people have done for years, is at best naive. The same is true for clubs’ proclamations, they are made to paint the best picture from their own point of view and should be taken with a large dose of salt.
fergussingstheblues says:
August 25, 2013 at 1:48 am
It worth remembering that there was a stage that English clubs were banned from competing in Europe. Initially that was an indefinite ban so no-one knew when they would be allowed back in. It is worth also bearing in mind that a footballers peak is a fairly short time, so a player at say 27 was looking at the possibility of never playing in the World’s top club competitions.
Add to that the fact that Rangers were willing to pay the same wages as were available in England, and were putting a squad together to compete and win in Europe it is understandable why players were keen to make the move to Scotland.
The money that is generated from CL participation over the last 20 years has led to the scenario we have now that in every league there is a gap between the very best and the rest, something that was the domain of Scotland and Spain for years.
The Govan club are between a rock and hard place with their best outcomes of the upcoming Karagandy game
If Celtic go through the positives come from the co-efficients and the possibility that IF they come back to any sort of successful position in the future then they may get to the CL via 2nd place. The negative to them going through is that its another step over the horizon between both outfits cash reserves
If Celtic go out of course its the reversal of the above. I don’t think there is any real positive outcome for the medium to long term future for Govan FC from the Celtic results in Europe every summer as they wont get the necessary contributions unfortunately from the other participants
In saying all that, they may not be around in their present state, and personally I don’t care, but its points that i try to put across to any Govan club fan who made light of the result in Karagandy last midweek.
I re-iterate though that this should be the thoughts of a forward thinking Govan fan with the possible future 5-10 years down the line. They do have far greater issues to deal with in the short term.
The general view I feel that the Govan fan has isn’t survival, I think they feel entitled to survive, as ludicrous as that may sound, but that they look into the future trying to pinpoint the year that they obtain #1 status again and whether Celtic have beaten the 9 in a row tie they both share. I think deep down the majority place the importance of that higher than the immediate threat to their existence.
Well done Tom English. Saying it as it is. We need more journalism like this. Just imagine how stupid McCoist would look if all of the media wrote/spoke without fear or favour on this matter.
McCoists “shopping list” is an absolute joke. To me it lacks both maturity and leadership. McCoist may have a list of 100 players who bet on matches, well I could in 10 minutes put together a list of 100 managers who wouldn’t have went down the route he has taken.
Tens and tens and tens of names, all fitted into twelve sheets of a4. They must have borrowed some jumbo crayons to fill that many pages with that amount of names. Absolutely laughable.
toby says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:01 am
It was the Killie fans who came up with what, for me is the best ever football chant. It was about the time Andy Goram missed a game for Scotland after being diagnosed with schizophrenia.
” Two Andy Gorams, there’s only two Andy Gorams”
Absolute classic 😆
Danish Pastry says:
August 25, 2013 at 8:04 am
“Instead of hiring Jack Irvine, wasn’t it cheaper to just publish the accounts then?”
——————————————————
Excellent point DP and backs up what I, and I’m sure others, previously said re the use of PR companies – that the more you have to pay for PR, the more you have to hide. And at the moment, they appear to be hiding their accounts, hence the need to pay big bucks for PR. I suspect that it is this factor, more than the McColl cabal, that Irvine has been brought back to spin. McColl at al will be the squirrel.
upthehoops says:
August 25, 2013 at 7:34 am
On the subject of the amount of added time at Celtic Park yesterday.
——————————————————————————————–
Maybe it is time we employed the most simple of remedies to the simplest of issues.
Complaints abound about the ever increasing costs involved in watching football.
We often see ridiculously low “ball in play” figures on Sky, so let the fans have the full 90 mins. That’s what they have paid for?
Nothing more, nothing less.
Take the watch away from the referee.
Have an official timekeeper in the stand.
When the ball goes dead the clock stops.
When the 90 is up, we have a hooter.
None of the ambiguity involved in waiting for the ball to be in “neutral territory” (even after the allotted extra minutes have elapsed) before eventually blowing for time up.
Players cannot present the “tired” defence as it would be the same for all.
Fans get a proper day out with yet another “variable” (cough, cough) removed from the game.
andygraham.66 says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:18 am
0 0 Rate This
The money that is generated from CL participation over the last 20 years has led to the scenario we have now that in every league there is a gap between the very best and the rest, something that was the domain of Scotland and Spain for years.
The Govan club are between a rock and hard place with their best outcomes of the upcoming Karagandy game
If Celtic go through the positives come from the co-efficients and the possibility that IF they come back to any sort of successful position in the future then they may get to the CL via 2nd place. The negative to them going through is that its another step over the horizon between both outfits cash reserves
If they go out of course its the reversal of the above. I don’t think there is any real positive outcome for the medium to long term future of the Celtic results in Europe every summer as they wont get the necessary contributions unfortunately from the other participants
In saying all that, they may not be around in their present state, and personally I don’t care, but its points that i try to put across to any Govan club fan who made light of the result in Karagandy last midweek.
…………………………………………………………
Great post, except for the ‘when they come back’ statement.
They’ve never been in Europe before and unless the newCLUB publish accounts, then they (Sevco) won’t even get in for a 1st time playing in Europe.
I meant to add in my earlier post. Will Tom English be asked to leave the next press conference he attends at Murray Park following his article today?
Apologies Scottc and others.
Lesson learned.
Read, refresh then post comment.
jimlarkin says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:42 am
I wouldn’t bet on it as far as getting into Europe is concerned jim, they had an outstanding tax bill of millions of pounds and the SFA still managed to get them into Euopean competition.
The new club surviving to reach the SPFL premiership however, that is another story entirely. That is far from certain at this stage. Even if the board is ousted that does not actually change who owns the PLC, the fact that the footballing side appears to be running at a loss, the need for fresh money just to see them through and the difficulty they will have getting any sort of credit on reasonable terms.
Whullie says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:39 am
1 1 Rate This
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Fair point Whullie, but what time do the last trains and buses run from Dingwall? 😆
Then there’s the potential for tactical time wasting to allow an exhausted team to recover. A manager could plan from the off on a 120-minute match with even more built-in stoppages, since there would be no penalty for ‘time-wasting’. We already see ‘medical time outs’ being used in tennis for purely tactical reasons. Prolong the match, get your breath back, hope an opponent loses rhythm, etc.
JLeeHooker says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:22 am
I remember that one well, and it still makes me laugh 😆 but I’m sure it was Morton fans who came up with it in a cup tie at Cappielow immediately after Goram and Goram thought it a good excuse, whatever the truth was, for his problems with playing for Scotland; which was probably no more than a phone call from his boss (Souness?) saying “Andy, Andy, we can’t afford to risk losing you for the big cup tie, so find an excuse to call off from Scotland duty and we’ll cover your latest bookies’ tab.”
fara1968 says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:45 am
Did anybody find out why Mark Guidi was ejected?
I think Radiccio makes a fair and accurate point with respect to the “behaviour” of the Killie fans in 2003. The same thing happened with the ‘Well fans when Scott McDonald put two goals past Celtic at Fir Park two years later. Nothing wrong with that. Curiously, that same day, Tony Mowbray’s Hibs were passing the ball in their own half, wasting time, whilst 1 -0 down to Rangers when a draw would still have seen Celtic lift the title. Few accused Hibs of being involved in an anti-Celtic conspiracy or held it against Mowbray when he became Celtic manager a couple of years later, but it was pretty clear that Hibs knew Rangers would be happy to see out the game – and that if they themselves avoided a 3-0 defeat they would qualify for Europe. Pure self interest – which is allowed I hope.
Nobody likes to host another team’s title party, and I would have thought that the ethos which has arisen out of the RTC blog and this one would have put to rest the ridiculous notion that a universal anti-Celtic spirit exists amongst fans of other clubs. I wish Celtic fans would stop rushing to take offence, reverting to sarcasm and abuse every time someone says something they deem insulting to their club. Surely we are all ready for a more grown-up discussion than that?
Where Radiccio seems to be a little unkind is his seeming dismissal of the idea that there is a pro-Rangers bias amongst the authorities. I think the past two years have pretty much reinforced that idea. Even folk who may have been reluctant to embrace it in the past now have doubts. Maybe Radiccio should cut the Celtic guys a wee bit more slack.
Hello again folks,
Quick splash of my current thoughts,
A decent article from Tom English, he could and maybe should have been a bit stronger but progress is progress.
Lunny at the SFA, if he fails to deal with it, then to me it’s simply a truth that can’t be challenged. i.e. Turnbull Hutton when he called the whole thing corrupt. Which leads me to believe that gambling is rife in football and too big an issue to deal with, but Ian Black crossed an extra line when he bet against his own team, three times! So he will therefore be something of a sacrificial lamb, but with a reduced sentence ‘because everyone is doing it!’
Gordon Parks’ comments were also truly shocking (but are still nothing more than a big squirrel) but still no reaction from the SFA or Lunny. To be honest, Police Scotland should be investigating those allegations!
Finally, I think Allyjambo has nailed something that’s been nagging me for a few weeks now, the whole Irvine is he/isn’t he involved PR games and the boardroom war is just a really big squirrel. Maybe if Tom English is looking in he can ask questions about the accounts, for the devil really is in the details!
Back to lurking.
Oh sorry. Please cut out the ref and his injury time stuff from yesterday. There is a serious point about how time is added, and how the process could be made more transparent, but individual cases always lead to unresolvable arguments, whataboutery, and other stuff.
Plenty of places to discuss why the ref loves/hates team(s).
Not here.
Danish Pastry says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:52 am
1 0 Rate This
Whullie says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:39 am
———-
Fair point Whullie, but what time do the last trains and buses run from Dingwall? 😆
—————————————–
Noted DP.
On the flip side. Could the “open endedness” re finishing times have a bearing on the much maligned scheduling times for TV?
It may assist with the “winding in” of the necks of the broadcasting companies, resulting in yet another wee bonus for fans.
Jeez. That might even assist in the encouragement of more fans through the gate.
Mair fitba’ tae see AND at a sensible hour?
Even in hilarity..common sense prevails.
It’ll never catch on. 😀
TSFM says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:02 am
5 1 Rate This
Interesting stuff about RFC 1872 absence from inaugural SFA meeting on Jim Craig’s increasingly entertaining Scottish Football History Blog
wp.me/p2CZE9-P
——————-
This bit, seeming to cover the first-ever ‘boycott’ of one club by another, made me laugh. Guess who boycotted? 😀
“In the final, Rangers proved tougher opposition, the match at Hampden ending 1-1 in front of a crowd of 9,000. Rangers, however, refused to take part in the replay, claiming that they had scored a second perfectly correct goal in the first match; the SFA ignored their protests and awarded the Cup to Vale of Leven.”
Excellent story about an ICT supporters’ bus picking up Celtic fans in Perth yesterday when the ‘Tic bus broke down.
**************************************************************
Robbie Cole @Robbbb94 12h
@ICTFC Fair play to the Supporters Club who took us to the game after our bus broke down in Perth, despite our green and white tops.
**************************************************************
JLeeHooker on August 25, 2013 at 10:53 am
0 0 Rate This
fara1968 says:
August 25, 2013 at 10:45 am
Did anybody find out why Mark Guidi was ejected?
///////////////////////////////////////////////////
I’m not sure why Guidi was thrown out but he is the only media guy that I have heard questioning if no malice Ally should be given the boot wrt his results.
Loath him or loath him, I’m sure most will agree Jack Irvine is a clever man, and good at what he does. I’m sure he seldom makes a mistake with any press release issued on behalf of a client (unless deliberate) and certainly not when speaking for himself. With this in mind I think this quote from this piece in the Scotsman is interesting:
http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/spfl-lower-divisions/rangers-craig-mather-hires-pr-guru-jack-irvine-1-3061944
” “I, and many other observers, are also staggered at the arrogance of men who have invested nothing in the club yet feel they can dictate to directors who have sunk substantial sums into the venture. I am also reminded that some of these individuals had the chance to buy the club for a modest sum yet were repeatedly found wanting.” ”
“men who have invested nothing in the club” – Now I thought the ‘club’ was different from the company, and surely it is the company in which any investment would be made. So how could they possibly invest in the club? Unless, of course, the club and the company were one and the same!
I suspect, even for Jack Irvine, the plethora of spin is impossible to keep up with and, when he is using the emotions of football fans to rally them to his cause, it is incumbent on him to use the word ‘club’ in situations where ‘company’ would be a better choice. I’m sure Irvine will be aware of this faux pas, but the piece, as with most, is aimed solely at TRFC supporters, and he knows he has to keep using the emotive word ‘club’, for to use the word ‘company’ wouldn’t provide the emotion he seeks.
“some of these individuals had the chance to buy the club for a modest sum” – Yes, Jack, a modest sum, I hope BDO see it that way too. You, nor Charles, didn’t describe it ‘modest’ at the time, did you?
“feel they can dictate to directors who have sunk substantial sums into the venture” – Good job Charles and Imran are no longer directors, for Jack couldn’t have said that if they still were!
Three points, from two sentences, that a decent journalist could expand on and make hay with. But I did say ‘good journalist’ so on TSFM they will remain.
Note to TSFM; I’m not trying to re-ignite the newclub/oldclub argument, just trying to highlight how the constant layering of spin has led to a situation where even a PR guru can’t avoid the trip wires he was complicit in creating 🙂
IIRC the other dayT’Rangers made statement that the board were going to try and work with MColl and his mates to try and sort out a nice and cheap solution by this Tuesday that would avoid the need for an EGM.
The next thing Mather hires in JI as an attack dog who goes straight for the oppositions jugular.
How much popcorn should I buy because this is going to go on and on until somebody publishes the accounts?
Morning all.
Just thinking aloud.
If there is any danger of the spivs losing the vote at the AGM/EGM(if it goes ahead),then who thinks they might put TRFC into administration before then?.
They could then claim any fixed charges they may hold over property assets and walk away,leaving McColl etc with a bankrupt football club.
If they think they’ll lose the vote they’ll want to stuff as much into their pockets beforehand.
Just a theory(and probably wrong). 😐
Almost at the stage where we can get a podcast plan together folks. Will advise soon of details and dates.
We are still very open to ideas for regular content. I like the weekly summary put together by CoT.
More ideas?
Danish Pastry says:
August 25, 2013 at 11:13 am (Edit)
Interesting stuff about RFC 1872 absence from inaugural SFA meeting on Jim Craig’s increasingly entertaining Scottish Football History Blog
wp.me/p2CZE9-P
——————-
This bit, seeming to cover the first-ever ‘boycott’ of one club by another, made me laugh. Guess who boycotted? 😀
“In the final, Rangers proved tougher opposition, the match at Hampden ending 1-1 in front of a crowd of 9,000. Rangers, however, refused to take part in the replay, claiming that they had scored a second perfectly correct goal in the first match; the SFA ignored their protests and awarded the Cup to Vale of Leven.”
___________________________________________________
I believe that VoL actually turned and kicked off in that match, walking the ball into the empty Rangers goal.
RedLichtie
DP
The comments below Tom English’s article are indicative of an absence of morality as opposed to the presence of a twisted one.
Reading them though you could forgive Tom for being reluctant to wade in dangerous waters although on this occasion he dived right in. Fair doos.
With regard to Einstein’s point about not fixing a problem with the minds that create it then how is a cleansing to be carried out at Rangers where morality is absent or are we talking a horses head in the bed type of cleansing here?
Fans Fury?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/fans-fury-as-rangers-rehire-pr-firm-for-power-fight.21955042
If they have re-employed MH, does that mean they now have two PR companies bankrolled, as well as (for the avoidance of doubt) James Traynor? Was I mistaken, or was another company not just awarded a 5-year contract?
TSFM says:
August 25, 2013 at 11:56 am
“‘I believe that VoL actually turned and kicked off in that match, walking the ball into the empty Rangers goal”
—-
Oh, the golden years, when the SFA actually applied rules! ( But did the referee involved ever get another cup gig?)
Auldheid says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:23 pm
1 0 Rate This
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I couldn’t bring myself to read the comments below, I was expecting the worst, so avoided them 😉
His problem now is, that if he doesn’t soon come with something critical of Celtic or their fans, he’ll be branded a part of that unseen you know what 😆
‘when they come back’
I did really means the fans, as I am fully aware and champion the whole New club scenario, but unfortunately the fans are one and the same and Tupe’d over in every single way from old to new
” Two Andy Gorams, there’s only two Andy Gorams”
———————————-
Just a page ago SSB was condemned for joking about special needs schools. In the same vein, I don’t think we should be making jokes about mental illness. Goram is a despicable character – I am sure there are plenty of other ways to criticise and rip the pish out of him.
wottpi
Re your question about how much popcorn to buy,there is a real danger to your health that more than your corn will pop with the amount required here,you just have to ask some of the posters from as far back as the RTC site who can be found in various obesse clinics around the globe, becomming addicted to the dreaded popcorn while awaiting the outcome to the wold record of the longest running saga of one club and its date with administration,you could maybe ask Brenda if you can service some of her clocks ,they must be due an overhaul the amount use they have had.
loamfeet says:
August 25, 2013 at 12:35 pm
Fair point – it was certainly not my intention to make jokes about mental illness.
I apologise for any offense caused.
Jean7brodie
The SSB podcast isn’t available?? But my sister is so outraged by the whole situation she has emailed Clyde, still can’t believe my own ears but he definitely said it 😥