We spend an inordinate amount of time on this blog arguing about what the re-emergent Rangers should be called. It is a rather circular debate with no way of finding any consensus. The dispute between Rangers (“The Rangerists”) or The Rangers or Sevco (“The Sevconians”) and its claim to be the club that was formed in the 19th century is spurious. Whichever way you look at it, the continuity of the “brand” is undeniable and as long those who wish to keep buying that package are satisfied that the wrapping is authentic – where’s the harm?
The red herring in the argument is that “history” is important. To the average football fan, it is nothing of the kind. As a Celtic fan myself, and a bit of a student of the history of the club, I am constantly dismayed by the Thousand Yard Stare I get from your average Celtic fan who is confronted with the names of people who contributed significantly to the club’s identity. Key figures like Sandy McMahon, Jimmy Delaney, Jimmy McGrory and (God help us) John Thomson rarely elicit recognition.
Modern football fans who live in the instant gratification society of the the WWW and mobile communications may pay lip service to their clubs’ history, but that’s not what gives the modern football fan wears as his badge of honour. That is a commodity often erroneously confused with history – the bragging rights associated with the trophy haul.
The ability to claim that “we have more titles than you” is far more valuable to a supporter than which 19th century attacking centre-back won the Scottish Cup with a last minute header; and the value of said cup wins is heavily weighted in favour of the most recent (save for the honourable exception of the European successes).
The maintenance of that illusion of superiority is crucial if Rangers fans are to believe that their club is still Rangers. Perhaps in time they may even come to fully believe it themselves, but the cataract of column inches devoted to propagating that myth, both from the MSM and from information outlets controlled by Charles Green’s organisation, betrays a lack of total belief by the chief Bear-existentialists. Protesting too much may not be subtle, but that never put off your average fitba’ man either.
The upshot though is this. There is a belief – or at least a hope – amongst Rangerists that the continuity argument holds. They will call the new club Rangers. Fans of other clubs who make up the vast majority of the Sevconian tendency, believe nothing of the kind. They will call it something else.
Many will remind Rangerists that the old club died, and this is factually correct (or at least will be very soon). Rangerists will counter that the Rangers ethos lives on at Ibrox, and despite the worrying overtones (for some) contained in that statement, that is also factually correct.
Rangerists will also point out, as Rangers fans on this blog already have, that the SPL bent over backwards to assist the continuity of the club in order to minimise the financial consequences for Scottish football, and that the SFL too, have agreed that they are the same club.
Why? Simply because Scottish Football thinks it needs to help perpetrate they illusion of continuity to avoid the loss of thousands of paying customers to the game altogether.
So round one has gone to the Rangerists, with the Sevconians pretty much taking an eight-count.
So is the name thing important? I don’t think it is of critical importance. The name in itself doesn’t matter, but to merely agree that everything is as before is to join forces with the MSM, SFA & SPL who have sought to give RFC and their tax theft a pass.
Whatever happens in the future though, the illusion hasn’t worked completely. The Sevconians’ wish to call the new club by a different name was for the purpose of making it synonymous with tax evasion, however the name Rangers now evokes exactly that response. There is now a discernible pause when people mention Rangers. A pause that reflects on the dis-service they did to the country, and to the game of football in Scotland.
Which brings us to the really important point. Throughout this saga rules have been bent. Conflicted individuals, alleged to have been involved in the tax and registration scam and its subsequent cover-up, have remained in positions of authority and power, despite being under a cloud throughout. The media have been complicit, except in rare cases, in allowing the wrong-doing to go unquestioned, actively campaigning for rules not to be applied.
What we have been saying all along is this. Please play the game by the rules, and do not manufacture special cases for the financially powerful.
Call Rangers whatever you wish, but deal with their transgressions appropriately in the spirit of sporting fairness, and within the framework of the existing rules. That is the least – and most – we expect. We don’t ask for much. Just give us back some pride in our sport .
Trying to catch up on the last few days posts ,where are they all comming from ,finding it better to print off and go through them as its easier to go back over,it looks like a week some have been waiting for more than others ,been reading an interesting book recently about a retired police employees life in the force ,very interesting ,I will finish this before commenting when back in the uk,some very interesting between the lines comments about life in Glasgow,nothing changes it seems,well up until now,glad to see you are still taking the medication Brenda.
Regards
FIFA
Andy Coyle @STV_Andy
At Leaders in Football conference, who is speaking at event called “Governance: Are you serious?” None other than the SPL’s Neil Doncaster!
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/10/10/the-mystery-of-the-22-million-rangers-shares-by-ecojon/
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
Incremental income is what Green needs , although his priority appears to be for a one off quick cash flow boost
9m Barcabhoy Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
The problem for RFC is that even if they get 20,000 to spend £500 each on shares it’s liable to be at the expense of other revenue streams
Night Terror on Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 09:14
19 1 Rate This
Jesus. Still on the “I Hope” business?
———–
Let’s leave religion out of this 🙂
thespecialswon says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 11:01
When you look at the final report to creditors you have the income and expenditure from the Duff & Duffer reign 14 Feb to 25 September. During that time Rangers had 12 games left, 6 home six away.
The ticket sales is itemised as circa £2m. Now it is not clear if this is just ‘pay as you go’ being that presumably all season books were paid up and the money accounted for before 14 Feb. But lets assume it was, so thats £333k for each of the 6 home games. Now we now that 36k season tickets have been sold and league game crowds so far have been say 46k therefore lets say this season that 10k pay at the door.
10,000 x £15 a pop – £150,000. Therefore it can be argued that half the pay as you go income has gone and even more if crowds drop as the season continues.
But from the Duff & Duff figures taking account of matchday costs and security alone, Rangers were paying around £110k. Apart from dropping the ex-players doing the meet and greet a lot of these costs will remain, especially if crowds remain at 46k. Therefore that only leaves around £40k income per home game covered by season tickets or £720k for a league season.
On the plus side they have sold 36k season tickets and at a (generous) average price of £225 they may have bagged circa £8.2m. Add that the the £720k and call it £9m but it is claimed £6m of that is needed for the wages.
So that gives them about £3.0m plus the pay as you go to play with.
However when you project the costs for Utilites and Rates for the Duff and Duff period for the year they are just over £1m. (Remember Feb to Sept includes a close season and times when you have less floodlighting undersoil heating etc to worry about, so the annual costs could be higher).
So now that £3m becomes £2m
The income also details sponsorship and SPL income (£753k & £519k) that will be well reduced this season and from the Forbes piece the sponsirship was almost worthless.
Therefore lets say they manage to get something that makes the £2m back up to £2.5m
So that gives them about £2m plus any cup income to play with. Which looks pretty healthy.
But then there are other smallers issues to take into account including that the catering/food /cleaning expenditure v food sales and hospitality sales seemed to indicate a loss of around £300k for the six homes games. Multiply that by 3 to give you 18 games and thats near another £1m gone.
To me it all looks pretty tight and it really all depends on the wage bill.
If the £6m was for all staff then they would be in a good position but I find it hard to believe being Ally is reportedly on £1m and Alexander, McCullloch and Wallace may be avergaing £10k a week or £1.5m for the year. Addin in Black and Templton on a combined £10k a week and that another £0.5m. So that half the wage bill alone. Thats would mean the remaining players (and the reserves) all the coaching staff, management and admin have £3m between them.
£3k a week for the remaining twenty 1st team squad would blow that £3m.
(As they are due for renegotiation Alexander and McCulloch will need to be told to take a healthy drop in their contracts if they are going to stay around).
We know that everyone Tuped across and according to the Forbes article around 70% of the packages where protected. So what money is Durrant and McDowall on? How much are the rest of the 1st team squad getting along with the reserves and all the backroom staff at Ibrox and Murray Park. Presumably there are still management and admin staff on salaries between £15k to £100k a year.
Oh and then there are those investors possibly wanting their return and bank managers wanting interest on any monies borrowed or overdrawn.
I still think it looks very tight for a new company with links to a business that had a troubled past.
For once I agree with the VB 🙂
“Vanguard Bears has always been of the opinion that the Rangers Tax Case blog was and is a collective effort.”
I like to think that the coming together of the majority of the fans of Scottish football to seek sporting integrity, to shed light on the application of company law, to hold the MSM to account all for the greater good and health of the game (irrespective of the clubs we follow) is a collective effort.
The evolution from RTC to TSFM is also a collective effort, and hopefully this proud collective effort will go from strength to strength.
Courtesy of Mr. Speirs on Twitter
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/opinion/spiers-on-sport-everyone-can-be-sacked-even-ally-mccoist.1349801490
Fozzy (@grantyfoster) says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 12:38
Re AJ’s last comment. Someone should tell him that Rangers have not been liquidated.
Trolling by way of Spamming a neither here nor there article that first appeared on STV’s website a month ago? Thank you, next!
allyjambo says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 09:43
‘.Hope that clears that up, John, and you can re-read my post and let me know if you think what I said holds water’
—
Certainly does, AJ. My own use of language wasn’t as precise as it ought to have been.Sorry about seeming to imply that you personally might have blanketing all foreigners as being without sense of right and wrong!
wottpi says
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 12:17
============:
thespecialswon says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 11:01
On the plus side they have sold 36k season tickets and at a (generous) average price of £225 they may have bagged circa £8.2m.
============================
I wonder if you’ve factored in the VAT that is due on ticket sales (I know). If not that £8.2m becomes £6.8m
Banger Mcgraw: Where are you reading this information? As long as it is not from Cuckoo Nest at Vanguard Bears it would be an interesting development.
Oops! Never quite managed to get this done yesterday…. I meant to post up a link to both the SFA ‘Registration Procedures’ and ‘Articles of Association’ from 2000, at least. So here is the link, if anyone is interested –
http://d01.megashares.com/dl/suhRsep/Scottish%20football%20docs.rar
Both the docs are included in the above Rar file. I hope this is useful for someone… 🙂
WeMustBeTold
Banger Mcgraw: Oh well, just read down a bit further after posting and the link provided by Torrejohnbhoy is that of the Cuckoo Nest. No wonder you were so keen to avoid posting a link.
Fozzy (@grantyfoster) says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 12:38
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Grant, I think you should just give up now – that’s a poor effort. Why was Rangers sold for £1?
Fozzy,
Celtic’s debt leverage would have been far below that of Rangers if they had chosen not to pay tax on over 80 players earnings paid separately (with the details of said earnings not properly registered with the footballing authorities) through an EBT and then not to make an adequate provision in their accounts for any of the disputed amount when challenged by HMRC, thereby rendering them insolvent.
It seems Celtic decided not to take this course of action and, indeed, sought to mitigate the risk in the one EBT they had entered into by willingly paying the tax to the authorities, which, to me, seems a good example of strong corporate governance by the Director involved.
Clearly you, and the former Rangers Director mentioned in your post, think Celtic – and every other club who tries to things properly – are wrong in their strategy?
The vangaurd bears ( who where still backing whyte after admin day) are only interested in seeking out and destroying those who have exposed the shenanigans at rabighoose. Does it matter who, why or how they came about this information, surely the only real importance should be the verification of the info and not the source.
Fozzy is out to disrupt the blog by posting old articles from the ever reliable AJ who was in place while the walls where crumbling and who feels the bank should have taken up the slack of rfc’s business practises( despite the fact that mih had already loaded the bank with debts that the taxpayer had to swallow). He now wants to come back on later and give us marks out of ten as to how we decipher his nuclear information, even though he thinks we are a ridikulus bunch of bampots.
We dont care what VB think, and we dont care what you think either fozzy. We ( others) have managed to work out a fair amount of the important stuff already and your wee side project does not whet the appetite while we await the imminent firestorm.
Jog onwards.
Fozzy (@grantyfoster) says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 12:38
Warm greetings to you to you too, Fozzy. Your Twitter monikor no worky.
Now, where were we?
Jack Irvine, chief slimeball at Media House and shampoo-shoveller for the establishment. Rangers mouthpiece.
Peter Watson, famously litigious Levy & McCrae senior Partner and the old Rangers’ legal beagle – the ‘Go To’ guy when things get rough for the ‘establishment’. Trustee of Jack Irvine’s childrens shares in Media House (just under 30% of the share capital ). Also, Deputy Chairman of King and Co, Bankers, Irish Town 28, Gibraltar.
Gregory King, Director of Gibraltar Asset Management, Irish Town 28, Gibraltar. Vehicle: Mathon – asset-based commercial lender; founder, Heather Partners, a hedge fund that lends money backed by real-estate assets.
Stefan King …. non, smoking, non drinking, non gambling head of G1 pub/club magnate and relative and former business partner of above. All S.K anecdotes welcome (careful now!)
A question for you, Fozzy…
Do King and Company Bankers Ltd (Gibraltar) have any other connection with Gibralter Asset Management, apart from sharing the same address?
I’ll pop back in tonight to see how you got on.
A reply to my email to Cenkos asking for confirmation that Green was looking to make an IPO.
.
It was tossed about inside Media House, referred there for advice on whether to reply and if so in what terms.
The actual reply was a courteous one-liner, referring to the statement made on Sept 8th .
The one-liner was ;
” Dear John, Please find below the previous announcement on Cenkos who are advising the club on raising additional capital”
Would I be wrong in thinking that this carefully vague sentence suggests to me that their advice is likely to be directed at a private share offer, rather than an IPO? That is, that they were engaged just to give advice on how to raise capital, not expressly to advise on construcion of a an IPO with a placing on AIM?
Banger Mcgraw: OK. So you were just being responsible, However, don’t you think that the “source” is the least reliable so urce on the World Wide Web?
Ssshhh, everyone. Keep it quiet but, when you know who “pops back in this evening”, everybody hide. Right?
Andrew Woods says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 12:56
Well indeed no I hadn’t even bothered with the VAT, not made a guess on PAYE NI Pension, Healthcare plans insurances etc etc either
The reality is that when running at ‘full strength’ in the SPL and not long after a Euro cup final Rangers had a debt of £18m and having used future ticket sales to pay it off Whyte then needed the £14m PAYE/NI/VAT to keep it afloat for a matter of months and Duff & Duffer ran up a further £4m loss over another few months.
Therefore if Malcolm Murray says they have attempted to cut costs and get the club into the black they need to have been significant as suggested by Jon Pritchett in the Forbes article and futhermore costs will need to be kept under control to keep on an even keel.
Added to that is the need for maximising reveue and other incomes. Therefore I don’t see why T’Rangers would have anything to disagree with in the Forbes article.
The advice contained within the article sounds good to me
If it is not taken then it will be into the red along with a bi-annual share offer to the loyal fans and a quick return journey to square one.
iceman63 says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 11:49
13 7 Rate This
We have now had the facts established re- guidigate – well done to those who pursued it to that end – but pending further investigation by his employers and those to whom the complaint has been registered I suspect there is nothing new to add here, now.
—————————-
I agree with this.
There is a simple way to stop this clogging up the blog: Radio Clyde have established in writing that my transcript is correct. Therefore surely anyone who now posts that Mr Guidi did not say what my transcript relates (and that is what most of the posts have been!) is trolling.
Stop the trolling, please!
doontheslope says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 13:49
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Ssshhh, everyone. Keep it quiet but, when you know who “pops back in this evening”, everybody hide. Right?
Genuine LOL !! 🙂
John Pritchett – “A commercial turnaround of Rangers FC isn’t feasable.”
Malcolm Murray – “There has been significant investment in the club from individuals and organisations.”
Charles Green – “In terms of investors in the company, to date, our investors include, Chris Morgan, a UK based businessman representing family trusts; Glenmuir, the renowned Scottish clothing company; Ian Hart, a Glasgow based businessman.”
Ian Hart – “I am not part of Green’s consortium.”
Chris Morgan – Couldn’t be found to make a comment to tell us whether he is or he isn’t.
********************************************
Just a wee bit revision for everyone:
http://scotslawthoughts.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/who-are-the-mysterious-sevcorangers-investors-some-answers-guest-post-by-ecojon/
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 14:14
According to you, Guidi is guilty of trying to incite violence.
That is the spin you have put on his words.
You are entitled to interpret his statement this way.
I view his statement differently.
In my opinion, anyone who thinks former Celtic boys’ club keeper Guidi is guilty of maliciously trying to get Rangers fans to engage in violence over the issue of stripped titles is deluded.
That is not trolling.
Your opinion is not fact and I am entitled to rebut it especially when your take on the comments is so glaringly detached from contextual reality.
fozzy bear is on a fishing trip, under a bridge ….. best ignored!
raycharlez says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 14:53
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Defence of MSM member? Check.
Gratuitous mention of Celtic Boys’ Club? Check.
MH troller? What do you think, peeps?
TBK
fozzy ( the bear) is a muppet.
I realise thats not the best joke ive ever posted and i was unsure if i would even bother, but in the end, i fully kermitted. 😀
wottpi says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 09:46
If this isn’t sorted soon the issue is in danger of becoming our own ‘Orange Strips’.
————–
An eloquent articulation of a point I tried to put across yesterday. I mentioned that there were “many miscreants in this arena” (or words to that effect). I didn’t mean “on this blog”–I meant “in Scottish/Govan-based football.” Better to focus our attention on those fellows, no?
But once again, amid all the kerfuffle about Guidi, no-one has paused to ask, “Why on earth would he have said something as stupid as that?” Because, putting the politics aside, if anyone was actually to utter the contentious phrase on air, he would be committing career suicide. And beyond that, only the most unhinged Vanguard Bear would actively _hope_ for all that stuff. I could understand people getting animated if a journalist spoke up in defence of Sevco, or indeed Mr. Charles and his Dog-Whistle Politics. But this is getting Pythonesque. (Do you want the 15-minute argument or the full half-hour?)
rab @ 15:23
Careful with the use of the Muppet word. I wouldn’t want the name of Gonzo journalism sullied by having any association the the Scottish MSM.
doontheslope says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 14:53
——————————————————————————————————————————-
Delahunt was given the scoop on Celano and Naqvi a full ten days before Paul wrote that piece,
yet decided not to use it. I wonder if he’s one of the 25 journalists that have been threatened by Ally’s Army in the past year?
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 14:14
Radio Clyde have established in writing that my transcript is correct.
——
Sorry for yanking your chain again, but … No they haven’t.
We get quite tied up in forensically examining the half-truths set forth by Mr Charles and his merry crew – as well as their efforts to create truth by repetition – so let’s not make up any of our own, eh?
Observer and friends…
I don’t believe most people disagree with what was said, the hard part to believe is that it was a call to arms. If you (Observer) believe that was his intention then that is an opinion which is not up for discussion as that is how you feel, the subject matter however is up for discussion and some posters have different opinions. Sometimes people change their views based on new information or enlightenment and sometimes (most of the time) they do not. You make a convincing argument in respect to the actual transcript which is why I agree that was said but does it really make me a troll because I interpret his intentions differently from you?
I will assume that was tongue in cheek as I don’t believe that to be the case, I believe some posters questioned your sense of hearing at first and now it has spiraled into pedantic point scoring. This doesn’t bother me as much as others but it doesn’t make good reading in a blog trying to sell itself as the objective voice.
madbhoy24941 says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 15:53
============================================
Hear, hear.
Since I am the only one on the blog who has not put in his take on the Guidigate tape (see what Nixon has started – I hate everything gets -gate after it nowadays!).
Without see him in person, its alos hard to say what he meant.
For instance – if you could see him do the following
Well….(sigh)…..I hope…(shake of the head and then a resigned look) …it’ll kick off……..
It may be that he meant something different.
Reading emails and hearing voices on phone conferences without seeing someones expression sometimes means you lose the joke, tongue in cheek or just don’t see them thinking out loud.
Could be…who knows. Only Mark Guidi knows, We can only speculate.
I would say we had enough plankton to feed on for now for us bottom dwellers/feeders to work on meantime……………
I won’t be engaging on the G&*&*Gate business any more. A respected journalist said what he said & his fans’ll have to live with that.
Now if angus, Danish, briggsbhoy and others who wrongly accused me of putting words into someone’s mouth will kindly just apologise, we can move on in anticipation of FTT Friday!
……….I’m beginning to loose the will to live.
madbhoy24941 says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 15:53
I believe some posters questioned your sense of hearing at first and now it has spiraled into pedantic point scoring. This doesn’t bother me as much as others but it doesn’t make good reading in a blog trying to sell itself as the objective voice.
=====================
I’ll second that. Can we please all give up on Guidigate, There are 2 views on what was said, and 2 views on what it all means if it was said. We’ve had several days (seems more like weeks) of this, those who have strong views will clearly never agree, and I guess a lot of people have just had enough of it. That sort of ping pong match certainly does not make good reading for visitors to this forum, who could well be put off from making any contribution. The matter is with Ofcom. They will adjudicate. Let’s leave it until they do, and above all, let’s all respect each other’s opinions.
Malcom Murray appears after months tied up in CG’s hotel
Oct 10th is here
Forbes tell us what we all knew all along
CG is ready to impersonate Nicholas Parsons in the Sale of the Century
And we only worry about “hope”. We have trolled ourselves here!
Let’s get with the program…………….
is just me or have we established that as many Guidi’s can dance on the head of a pin as want to?
blu says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 15:57
madbhoy24941 says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 15:53
Ditto
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:15
========================================================
For goodness sake, let it go. If you’re right and have exposed a flawed, ‘respected journalist’, good for you. Maybe your vigilance and perseverance will mean that Radio Clyde will become a proper news and sporting media organisation – well done you again. But, your picking at people on here, who I guess mostly have common cause with you, is doing nothing to further anyone’s desire to expose corruption in football and teh Scottish media. I won’t cry if you call me a troll.
@ John Clarke
You are right, Cenkos are very carefully not confirming anything except that they are involved with Rangers and its efforts to raise new capital. From that one-liner they could perfectly well be be limited to assisting with a private sale.
Couple of our “Oldco” busy on Twitter:
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
The unaudited operating expenses of RFC in 2011 was £47.5 m. The audited for 2010 was £43.8 million. That’s before interest & player trading
10m Barcabhoy Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
Murray is claiming a £14 m wage reduction, so that leaves op exp of approx £30 m. Hard to see where they have made serious inroads
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
What is clear however is that turnover will be decimated. £12 million down on gate receipts ,no SPL TV money @£3m , no Euro
Rangers Tax-Case @rangerstaxcase
@Barcabhoy1 Are you suggesting that the proposed share issue is more like a Sevco Fans Fighting Fund? – needed to stay afloat?
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@rangerstaxcase I’m open to another explanation, however logic suggests there isn’t one
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:15
I won’t be engaging on the G&*&*Gate business any more.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I’ll bet you, you will.
Can we agree a forfeit of TSFM banning you if you do?
Now there’s a test for you 🙂
Someone has already posted about this but it’s worthy of more publicity. Fascinating stuff from Tommy from Glasgow at about one hour four minutes into the show. Best to download the MP3 then drag the curser to the start of the interview from http://glasgowradio.blogspot.dk/
Mr Ogilvie didn’t say much of any substance, but Tommy asked some good questions. I was impressed by Ogilvie’s willingness to engage Tommy, and by his politeness. This is bampottery at its finest. Although Tommy, if you’re reading, you don’t have to put the raw audio file out. If nothing else, try downloading this free audio editor:
http://audacity.sourceforge.net/
Just make sure you make a backup of your raw audio file. You can then slice your audio track, editing out the dead space and glitched calls, plus add some effect fades, and so on.
exiledcelt says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:03
Well….(sigh)…..I hope…(shake of the head and then a resigned look) …it’ll kick off……..
——————-
It has to be something along those lines. This is a case of this slow-witted SSB joker being inarticulate, rather than conveying a message that would be (by any rational standard) utterly inexplicable. If this (non-) issue is ever aired SSB, it’ll give the sleekit football “experts” yet another chance to dismiss the “bampots,” and let them avoid any serious discussion of Sevco’s voyage to the bottom of the leagues–and beyond!
RTC & BB continued:
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@rangerstaxcase I’m open to another explanation, however logic suggests there isn’t one
5m Rangers Tax-Case Rangers Tax-Case @rangerstaxcase
@Barcabhoy1 it would answer the question from Sevco fans “why a share issue now when we cannot invest in players?”.
53s Barcabhoy Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@rangerstaxcase core investor , as opposed to a fan, asks 2 questions. What’s my return and is there liquidity to deliver it.
Option for managing ‘feel-good factor’ prior to share sale ?
===============================================
So if McCoist continues to deliver woeful results, this is not going to help Charlie sell shares.
To continue to promote the idea that everything is looking great down Govan way, could Charlie stick Ally in the Boardroom, and recruit another – probably unemployed – manager, and thus try and keep all the Sevco fans happy ?
Charlie could then spin it that this displays his commitment to the club (?) and now wants likewise from the fans – so give us your money !
But I also think that clarifying the ownership of ‘iBbrox’, MP and car park could still be his undoing… 😉
Let’s hope there’s some interesting news soon and we can all get back on track 🙂
Episode 3
Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@rangerstaxcase core investors get their return from share issue ? Is that what RFC fans want their money to be used for ?
9m Rangers Tax-Case Rangers Tax-Case @rangerstaxcase
@Barcabhoy1 Only credible reasons for share issue: pay out to investors; survival cash; or a hope of doing a bit of both.
1m Barcabhoy Barcabhoy @Barcabhoy1
@rangerstaxcase “By definition, speculative stocks carry a great deal of risk.” This is a financial lifeboat with only 1lifejacket
Thanks to link from jc http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/index.asp
Looks like LH schedule full up to Friday 11.30am – seems to have a clear afternoon 😉
Oh to be a fly on the wall!
StevieBC says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:40
It is clear that whatever talents Mr McCoist has, managing a football team like Rangers is not (yet) one of them. (I say yet, because if he were to go and do the sensible thing and have a go at managing a less difficult side, he may yet surprise us)
However, Mr Green is in a difficult position, the fans have not yet reached a point where they could accept even “elevation” to the boardroom. Something I am sure Mr Green would look on in much the same way as Sir Humphrey looked upon the House of Lords,- Elevation, Approbation, Castration.
So Mr Green has to wait until the results become so dire that the fans will accept the move, but he can’t wait until they become so dire that the fans accept the move and refuse to part with their brass.
It is just one of many rocks and shoals that Mr Green has to navigate, what we have yet to establish is whether he is a James Cook or an Edward Smith. (The purists among you would of course argue that William Bligh was a better seaman than Cook)
wottpi says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:31
6 4 Rate This
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:15
I won’t be engaging on the G&*&*Gate business any more.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I’ll bet you, you will.
Can we agree a forfeit of TSFM banning you if you do?
Now there’s a test for you
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Happy to do a deal with you!
If, in return, I go the whole week without raising coughcough, you have to change yr log in name to an actual word or name.
Deal??
(I’ll ask Ofcom to post it’s findings directly on here BTW)
Observer
Please do 😉
Observer says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 17:10
Agreed
However I should have said that I would of course be more than happy for you to post any Ofcom findings when they get back to you. Thats is right and proper.
Its just the constant distracting chatter that me and others are objecting to.
Barcabhoy and RTC tweets confirm the prevailing view here that there is no real business case for raising cash via shares other than (i) meeting running costs and (ii) return to investors.
We are at a disadvantage as we have little current info on TRFC expenditure – fixed costs seem not to have reduced significantly (big home crowds = costs and the non playing staff seem to be still there via TUPE) and the players costs is all speculation really given the conflicting press releases about wage reductions etc. Can we be sure that without additional working capital from original investors/new share issue that TRFC will hit financial buffers and if so, when we estimate this to be?
this is a pleasant distraction from Guidigate…..
Brenda says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 17:15
1 0 Rate This
Observer
Please do
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If you’ll excuse my abberant apostrophe above (wish you could edit yr posts on here!)
Thanks to link from jc http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/index.asp
Looks like LH schedule full up to Friday 11.30am – seems to have a clear afternoon
Oh to be a fly on the wall!
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He’ll be in the pub.
Observer
???
speculation about the current financial status of Sevco/The Rangers is probably fruitless so best we stick to the facts. IF / When Mr Green & Mr Murray formally launch their share issue and staring asking the fans for their hard cash then surely they will issue either a formal prospectus with financial details and projections or else make some kind of investor information pack available for download etc. Any failure to do this would surely flash up warning signs for all but lets wait & see what they actually do first and what information they will divulge before we speculate about further financial turmoil at Ibrox. 🙂
http://usada.org/
USADA going to issue its full findings on Lance Armstrong on this site this evening.
Will this go down in history as “Anti-Doping Week”?
If anyone was wanting to look at the 2010 accounts that barcabhoy is referring to in his tweets a link is here
http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/staticFiles/2/57/0,,5~153346,00.doc
Key changes is that this years turnover will not benefit from Euro cash (previously looks like around £16m and SPL/TV cash)
Gate and hospitality receipts will be markedly will be down from the £25.8m in 2010. My guess is that they will be lucky to draw in half that amount this season. So there is a loss of £29m already on the 2010 figures.
However on the plus side for T’Rangers one has to take into account the reported £24m cut in the wage bill from £30m to £6m (although it is unclear what this actually covers and how the figures were arrived at).
parmahamster says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 15:21
‘.Defence of MSM member? Check.
Gratuitous mention of Celtic Boys’ Club? Check.
MH troller? What do you think, peeps?.’
—–
Indubitably. The cloven hoof of a these particular trolls always becomes visible sooner or later.
Is TRFC paying its bills ?
===================
I asked the other day if anyone had heard if suppliers etc. where being paid on time.
I didn’t see any specific replies.
Today, in the DR a reader has posted the comment below, after the Jon Pritchard article.
I can’t verify, but can anyone else add to this ?
===================
“Mark T
8:24 AM on 10/10/2012
…sevco.. stories of people not been paid already. Media hosting companies going to court as we speak”
========
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-hit-back-at-claims-they-could-1370443
Charlie Brown says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 17:34
I agree it is difficult to know what T’Rangers finances are and everything at present is speculation.
Ideally some information should be made available at the time of any issue.
However looking back at past accounts is one of the ways to try and make sense of what may (or may not) be provided..
I would hope that MSM and the sensible Bears will at least do a wee bit homework when the time comes. Folk on here will be right in there as soon as any financials are made public.
My view is that, if they get their skates on, they well get enough cash to see them through this season while giving a return to the investors and paying Mr Charles his cut.
Afterall it will probably come down to a case of invest now and live to fight another day or die immediately. How many fans are going to sit back and let their club die a second time?
After that it may become a bit shaky once again but by that time Mr Charles and his gang will be long gone and some other suckers will have to pick up the pieces.
I can certainly see T’Rangers surviving but certainly not in a form the current fans expect of them.
wottpi says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 17:57
wottpi – what is not sustainable won’t be sustained it’s that simple. That is true in football and every other sphere of life, sooner or later the underlying realities will hit home. Just as they did during the summer.
Observer says:
Sunday, October 7, 2012 at 01:38(Edit)
I have been subjected to the same subtle pressure as Althetim and Brenda, and I will also have to sadly pull out of posting here.
Good luck with the blog’s aims.
__________________________________________________________
TSFM..
Thanks O
For clarity, could you let us know what pressure you have been subjected to ?
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Och…where’s that Katie when you need her 🙂
wottpi says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 17:21
However I should have said that I would of course be more than happy for you to post any Ofcom findings when they get back to you.
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No, I wouldn’t post it on here.
When I recently posted correspondence on here to do with the MSM, a pack descended on me.
Not surprising, but not pleasant. And not worth the grief.
(Brenda, you’ll get a PM of course!).
Observer @ 18:23
Cheers 🙂
Does anyone know if The Rangers have managed to get banking facilities up and running yet?
I was thinking about this and the ‘who owns Ibrox’ question.
Now, if sevco Scotland own Ibrox and Murray park and sevco 5088 everything else, it would make sense that sevco ‘The Rangers’ 5088 don’t have banking facilities or an overdraft. They have no collateral on which to secure a loan or overdraft, apart from season ticket money and other lesser revenue streams.
Does that make sense or have I added up 2 and 2 and got 5?
Youtawnaboot is right- I should retire again to my nonposting obscurity! I only re-emerged because celt4life & john clarke proving I’d not been lying flattered my ego!
I’m a Hoops fan but there is a bit of a bullying, “old Celtic” group mentality here: my main crime seems to be not that I attacked a MSM journalist but one who is “a Celtic man”. To younger Hoops fans that mentality is dying.
Anyway – have mentioned coughcoughgate so I accept my banning (a relief TBH as I am a bit thin skinned)
twopanda says:
Wednesday, October 10, 2012 at 16:50
Thanks to link from jc http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/rolls/supreme/index.asp
Looks like LH schedule full up to Friday 11.30am – seems to have a clear afternoon
Oh to be a fly on the wall!
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Lord and Lady Hodge are off for the weekend in the caravan at Berwick on Friday afternoon.