David Low
represents a highly significant component of the history of Celtic FC and consequently a highly significant component of how Scottish Football has panned out in the last 20 years.
As Fergus McCann’s Aide-de-Camp, Low was instrumental in helping him formulate and implement the plans which ultimately allowed control of the club to be wrested from the Kelly and White families. Low also helped McCann to rebuild and regenerate Celtic as a modern football club.
His views are unsurprisingly Celtic-centred, and this interview reveals his ambition for the club to ultimately leave Scottish Football behind. That may or may not be at odds with many of our readers, but the stark analysis of the realities facing football in this country may resonate.
He provides a window on the pragmatism of the likes of McCann, Celtic and many other clubs in respect of the demise of Rangers. He pours scorn on Dave King’s vision of a cash-rich Rangers future, and provides little comfort for those who seek succour for our failing national sport, believing that Scotland will find it impossible to emerge from the football backwater in an increasingly global industry.
Agree or not with Low’s prognosis, it is difficult to deny his compelling analysis of our place in the football world.
Re the podcast and David Low’s comments regarding Celtic leaving Scottish football.
I’ve normally disregarded the likelihood of this ever happening as its never appeared likely that there was anywhere for them to go – bear in mind that the SMSM have spent the last 20+ years talking up both Rangers and Celtics departure to greener pastures with no basis in fact for this ever being likely.
Then I spotted this comment tucked away in a Daily Record interview with Stephen Thompson a few weeks ago…
“My belief is there will be some form of regionalised European league within the next five years and I want United to be ready if that opportunity arises”.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/im-not-snubbing-ibrox-directors-3270158
Does Mr Thompson know something we don’t….
Certainly there’s been a bit more in the way of noises off from teams excluded from automatic qualification to the CL group stages and realistic prospects of progress beyond them.
It could be that trans national leagues may be on their way.
TSFM says:
April 7, 2014 at 6:06 pm
My own view is that although David Low is unashamedly promoting the Celtic cause, there is a message for the whole bog in his narrative.
Sorry, couldn’t resist!
scottc says:
April 7, 2014 at 8:13 pm
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incredibleadamspark says:
April 7, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Neil Doncaster sitting next to the Easdale brothers at Easter Road on Sunday resulted in predictable indication on here and provided yet more ‘proof’ about which mast his colours were nailed to. The image on the TV only showed only who sat to his right. To his left could have been Turnbull Hutton and the entire board of Raith Rovers. We’ll never know if that was the case and I thought at the time it was deliberately composed that way in order to stir the pot.
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Completely agree and for what it is worth the guy immediately to NDs left was NOT wearing a Rangers tie (may indeed have been a RR tie if such exists). Check Willie Vass’s pictures if you think you might be able to ID the man.
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The gent in question (no idea) appears to be sporting a similar tie to that of Grant Murray (holding the cup in a later photo) so perhaps the official RR tie? – And protocol may indeed have been properly observed.
Cluster One, I’d echo TSFM’s suggestion that you DO listen to the podcast. Your take on the content might be different to mine, so don’t take my word for it. TSFM, I’d also like to be clear that although I commented negatively on his comments, I didn’t for a moment suggest that David shouldn’t have been allowed a say, either because he is a Celtic fan or for any other reason. I agree that one of the main focusses of this forum is to stimulate debate on Scottish football and its future – that’s all I was doing, I think.
Cluster One, I’d echo TSFM’s suggestion that you DO listen to the podcast.no problem 😆
scapaflow says:
April 7, 2014 at 8:29 pm
A wee treat for Essexbeancounter before the Institute take him away (again) ====================================================================
Scapa…many thanks for that…if only such articles could be penned in more widely read “learned journals”…I agree with every word in this article.
PS…they have only ever taken me away once…so it won’t happen again…anyway, the motto of ICAS is “quaere verum”, i.e. “seek the truth”…and in the case of MIH and RFC(IL)/TRFC, the truth is abundantly clear…no need to seek, just look (with eyes open of course!)
essexbeancounter says:
April 7, 2014 at 10:16 pm
It’s a small step forward, this sort of legislation isn’t very sexy, nor is it Daily Mail friendly in the way that bashing the disabled is. But, if we are going to fix the structural problems facing UKPLC, then the Accountancy pillar is a good place to start.
smallchange says:
April 7, 2014 at 8:59 pm
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Yes, it does look remarkably like the official Raith Rovers club tie.
http://www.raithrovers.net/5516/new-official-club-tie.htm
Still trying to get to the bottom of the strange “blocked” notices. These appear to be going out when a post is sent to moderation. The language of the message is a little austere, but we have amended it to better reflect punishment short of instant death ❗
If anyone receives one of these messages, can you please forward it to TSFM@tsfm.net so we can have a look? Meantime, be assured that no-one is actually being blocked.
If anyone was wondering what SDM is up to these days…
The very slow slaying of Sir David’s Goliath
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-26927245
Lots of grim reading for those effected, not least members of the pension scheme. But it’s not all bad news though…
‘At least as interesting is who’s buying these assets. Step forward… the Murray family. It has a 70% stake in MIH, but it also owns other vehicles for buying fire-sale assets.’
It makes you wonder what other fire sale assets might interest Murray…doesn’t it!
LORD WOBBLY says: April 8, 2014 at 12:52 am
If anyone was wondering what SDM is up to these days…
=========
Aye, LW enough about (S)DM…what time do you call this to be posting your first Comment in ages: where the hell have you been? ! 😉
Welcome back to the Internet Bampot fold…
STEVIEBC says:
April 8, 2014 at 3:53 am
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LORD WOBBLY says: April 8, 2014 at 12:52 am
If anyone was wondering what SDM is up to these days…
=========
Aye, LW enough about (S)DM…what time do you call this
to be posting your first Comment in ages: where the hell
have you been? !
Welcome back to the Internet Bampot fold…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to log on to this site these days?
I go to the current thread. I think of something to say.
‘You must be logged in to comment’.
I log in. I’m transported to the home page. It says I’m logged in. I click on the current thread.
‘You must be logged in to comment’
I log in. I’m transported to the home page. It says I’m logged in. I click on the current thread.
‘You must be logged in to comment’
I log in. I’m transported to the home page. It says I’m logged in. I click on the current thread.
‘You must be logged in to comment’
We do this dance several times. Somewhat mentally fatigued, I exit my browser.
Sometime later…
I open my browser. I open TSFM and navigate to the current thread.
HUZZAH!
I’M ALREADY LOGGED IN!
Now, what was it that I wanted to say?
All of the above played out two or three times until, on April 8, 2014 at 12:52 am, I finally managed to synchronise my willingness to post with a successful comments page log in (insert tired and weary smiley).
Lord Wobbly,
What should interest every UK citizen is whether the assets sold to Murray out of MIH were publicly marketed, or were they just cosily trotted off to Murray after private “protracted negotiations”
Hundreds of £ Millions of Lloyds shareholders money has been lost at the hands of this failure.
Pension holders in MIH are not going to get their pension entitlement.
There is still absolutely no sign of Murray paying back the £6 million loan he got through his personal EBT.
The very least all of these damaged parties are entitled to , is a public enquiry into Murray and an independent review of all transactions between MIH and Murray Capital
RE the financial disaster that is MIH: “In the prevailing economic conditions since 2009, the delivery of the numerous asset disposals and debt reduction programme represents a significant achievement and a very credible performance.”
OR the vehicle burned up on re-entry but we found some metallic bits on a hillside in Knapdale and sold them to the Chinese for recycling.
Barcabhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 7:35 am
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Lord Wobbly,
What should interest every UK citizen is whether the assets sold to Murray out of MIH were publicly marketed, or were they just cosily trotted off to Murray after private “protracted negotiations”
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And that is a very good point.
Here we have a situation involving a group of companies which are massively balance sheet insolvent owing huge sums to a bank which itself is largely now owned by the UK taxpayer. No formal insolvency process is underway of which I am aware.
Accordingly the assets of the companies can be disposed of without any transparency or third party involvement (by which I mean an administrator or liquidator who would have a statutory duty to act in the best interests of the creditors).
No doubt it can be argued that an insolvency event would lead to a lower sale price than if the sales/disposals are carried out outwith an insolvency process and that in any case the directors are subject to duties that are effectively equivalent to those imposed upon insolvency practitioners. Those two points do have some validity but in an insolvency process, the insolvency practitioners are (i) regulated by their professional bodies; and (ii) subject to requirements to report to creditors on what they have done and why they have done it (to a much greater degree than directors in distressed businesses are).
In any case – if a director goes off the rails and realises assets in an “inefficient” way for creditors, ultimately the worst that is likely to happen is that they will be sequestrated (which may not be too harsh a penalty if assets have been squirreled away offshore) and banned from being a director.
If an insolvency practioner goes off the rails that will be the end of a career and there is a fair chance of creditors being able to recover against the professional indemnity insurance that will be in place. (I say all this knowing that many on here have little faith in the regulation of insolvency practitioners in the UK.)
I expect that the vast bulk of anything that is realised in the Murray group will go to the Bank. I expect also that the Bank is governing the process and that its (our) self-interest might be expected to maximise the recoveries but it is difficult to be comfortable that a banking culture that has for so long had its special, favoured chosen customers might not yet stretch to a wee bit of favouritism to its pals (and as there is no insolvency process, we will just never know).
Barcabhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 7:35 am
================================
The damage that man has done to Scottish society disgusts me.
Football isn’t a matter of life and death, but pensions are.
An inquiry isn’t enough.
Barcabhoy, i am astounded ( of forehead) by that! Who is meant to be monitoring these sort of things and keeping an eye out for “THE PUBLIC”? 😯
Running for my coat before I post this 😳
I’m waiting for the following headline in the Sun (though I’ll not read it there myself):
“SuperRoversWereFantasticT’RangersWereAtrocious”
I’ll have a long wait, I expect, for such a ‘British’ rag to print such a micky-taking headline, referring to such a ‘British’ football club, when the rag’s masters are so desperate to cling to every morsel of ‘Britishness’ left North of the Border.
Christyboy says:
April 8, 2014 at 8:43 am
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Barcabhoy, i am astounded ( of forehead) by that! Who is meant to be monitoring these sort of things and keeping an eye out for “THE PUBLIC”?
—————-
There are any number who are supposed to be doing this. They are called MP’s & MSP’s
I would advocate contacting them to question why MIH are unable to meet employees pension entitlements. I would also push for an enquiry into the other points I made in my earlier post.
I have asked Murdo Fraser, Lord Foulkes , Alastair Darling & George Galloway via Twitter .
I intend to ask others . The more people who ask/demand an answer the more difficult it us to ignore
People are being denied the pension benefit they worked for all their lives , whilst Murray lifts £6 million in a loan he isn’t paying back.
Anyone who has followed the stock market in the last 2 years will know returns have been exceptional. This has had the effect of bolstering pensions for employees. What did MIH invest their employees pensions in that have performed so disastrously.
Did they purchase MIH assets ? The report just released suggests that may be the case. The report talks of huge losses in shopping centers. Surely Murray did not gamble with employees retirements by buying hugely risky commercial property , when MIH were already exposed to this .
There must be answers on this and full transparency. Maybe the funds were not invested this way, but that’s not my reading of the report
Cluster One says:
April 7, 2014 at 8:09 pm
Nothing more than mischief making – but how come everyone not wearing a rangers tie needed a clip-on ID to get in including Doncaster?
Don’t think that’s an RR tie btw, suspect its an SPFL minion.
Meanwhile, life goes on for some- Martin Bain ( was he an effective director at RFC(IL)?) has picked up a wee non-exec directorship at AVC Media Group, Aberdeen, the ‘Herald’ reports. The ways of the business world are unfathomable. And isn’t it odd how the very word ‘media’ nowadays makes one think of nasty stuff rising to the surface of sewage water? ( No offence to AVC, of course:not their fault that so many people associated with the word have made it as dirty a word as ‘politician’ and ‘banker’. 🙂
Is there a saying, if you’re going to work in the sewer, employ rats? If not can I copyright it!
Barcabhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 9:44 am
“Did they purchase MIH assets ? The report just released suggests that may be the case. The report talks of huge losses in shopping centers. Surely Murray did not gamble with employees retirements by buying hugely risky commercial property , when MIH were already exposed to this .”
I don’t think you can be right here, Barca, as the law was changed after the Rupert Murdoch pension scandal to make it illegal for a pension fund to invest in the business of the company who’s employee pension plan it is (though it might be that there is a very small percentage of the fund’s capital can be). Other more savvy posters (Essexbeencounter, Cambellsmoney?) might be able to confirm if I am correct in this. So you must be wrong, mustn’t you? Surely this can’t have happened, could it? Unless, of course, there’s some loophole that might allow investments in related companies!
Companies House really are as much use as a chocolate teapot. Received this morning :
“Thank you for your email.
Company Number: SC425159
Company Name: THE RANGERS FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED
IBROX STADIUM 150 EDMISTON DRIVE
GLASGOW
G51 2XD
The accounts for the above company were accepted for filing on the 04/04/2014,they
need to be scanned onto the system and the department are currently scanning
documents,that were processed on the 31/03/2014.
Please try in a few days time when the accounts should be available for public
inspection.”
Scottish society needs proper financial regulators and protection from the SDMs of this world.
Oops, too late to edit last post, should have been Robert Maxwell’s pension fiddling/use I referred to and not Rupert Murdoch. I always seem to get them mixed up for some reason 😳
Re. the gentleman sitting with Mr Doncaster. I am not familiar with him and that does not appear to be a RRFC tie (too many stripes). My round yesterday was predictably a bit wayward. Suffice to say I am glad it was not a medal as my handicap would have taken a pounding 🙂
John Clark says:
April 8, 2014 at 10:17 am
I think we should be careful about transferring the opprobium that SMSM journos have deservedly had heaped on their heads for their gutless cowardice to those who work in the admin side of the media industry.
In general I think they are ethically no better and no worse than their counterparts in any other industries.
ecobhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 11:32 am
Good point. There is also a new generation coming through, that doesn’t have the disdain & contempt for Social media the Old Guard have. There is hope for the future
Interesting Low podcast, TSFM.
Didn’t agree with him on his idea of the future of Celtic, “The Rangers” and by extension Scottish football, but it was good to hear someone with credible knowledge of the Scottish game speak so forthrightly.
Good points put to Low by whoever the TSFM interviewer was re only Celtic being disadvantaged by the Ibrox Club’s absence from the top division. Not impressed by the way Low dealt with it, and amusing to hear him invoke the “Irish League” threat. Did the interview take place before “cataclysmic” became the go to phrase to scare away anyone contemplating a change to the status quo?
Final thought (until I think of another one) on the Low interview – he committed the cardinal sin of using the phrase “diddy club” in a non ironic way, from the position of supporting a big club.
parttimearab says:
April 7, 2014 at 8:51 pm
Good spot PTA. Slightly worrying if our owner is contemplating this rather than improving Scottish football, given that he has been prominent on various committees, boards etc within Scottish football.
I wonder if he has been distracted by one of those squirrels that seem so popular here.
Don’t know if this has been mentioned, but it appears that Albion Rovers have extended their ‘pay what you can’ scheme to next season’s ST’s!
I would hope those of you in the Coatbridge/Airdrie area (especially those of you who claim to be ‘supporters’ but haven’t attended a game of your professed club’s for years!) will support this amiable initiative.
I’m not a supporter of theirs, but have attended a few games this season. There’s a lot to admire about them.
An update on Rangers current squad capability and where they would finish in the Premier League. My previous viewing of Rangers was against Falkirk earlier in the year , and in comparison on Sunday, Rangers appeared to have gone backwards. However , this may be mitigated by:
– cup final are nervy affairs and Rangers seemed to suffer
– key players with knocks , Wallace and Daly
– pitch looked heavy
I also suspect that the team are used to grinding out a win against the part time teams in the second half and that Raith had the legs to last the game. Rangers do appear a very one dimensional team, ball wide to full back and launched to a big lump ( in this case Jon Daly) , the only variation is the 3rd man running down the left wing initiated by Lee Wallace , who was really poor on Sunday.
The toils of the season appear to have caught up with Rangers and the limited tactics deployed by the manager are being compounded by tired legs and brains. The young hopefuls seem thin on the ground , with young Aird , comfortably seen off by the Rovers left back , who had an excellent game.
With this same squad , Rangers will probably still get promoted next season, although there will be a few embarrassments along the way. However, I am revising down my estimate that Rangers will be a top 4 outfit, I believe that they will be in the bottom 6 at a Ross County , Killie level.
EKBhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 12:37 pm
…….
I believe that they will be in the bottom 6 at a Ross County , Killie level.
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you think Hibs are goners then?
Jings. Mr Wallace is determined to use every one of his 120 days to get to the bottom of things, isn’t he. I wonder if he might shortly announce that he meant 120 “Business Days” and that it is not his fault no one in the sports media understands routine business language.
Well I’ll say it if nobody else will. This podcast doesn’t belong on a neutral site. It’s only contribution to the general welfare of Scottish football is to warn everyone else that Celtic have no regard for Scottish football whatsoever and that Celtic would cheerfully screw the rest of the league for a chance to move to England or form a European league.
The thrust of this blog should never be that every club other than Celtic and Rangers are a millstone to be tolerated until they can be cast aside, but that is the constant unswerving view given in this podcast. To give him his due, Big Pink did try to ask one question about something that wasn’t entirely about the old firm, but it was dismissed almost immediately with the use of the word “diddy” – meant in an entirely derogatory sense – to boot. Had a member of the MSM asked this question to a Rangers man, we would be tearing shreds out of him for swallowing such a ridiculous response without a challenge.
The term cognitive dissonance has been thrown about here a lot in the last week or two. To me David Low exhibits this as clearly as any Sevco fan. He’s happy to cite historic attendance figures for Rangers and Celtic in the 30 thousands to allay fears that the the current drop in attendances is something to worry about, while he cites Celtics massive support as a reason why they could challenge for the Champions league if someone would just be good enough to re-write the entire rules of European football for them. He’s also able to focus on the gap in treatment between Celtic and Rangers in the media without recognising the similar gap between Celtic and every other team that isn’t Rangers. Finally, he talks a great deal about running Celtic with a sustainable business model, but compares this model only to that employed by Rangers and dismisses that idea of competition from any other Scottish club. How can he expect the giants of Europe to let Celtic, Ajax, Benfica etc have a slice of their pie, if he’s convinced that Celtic doing the exact same thing for other Scottish clubs will only drag Celtic down? His business thinking is selective in the extreme and follows his football bias. His views on Rangers are noteworthy, but add little. I still don’t know his opinions on the future of the game because he only talked about what he wanted for Celtic, not what he thought would actually happen. His wishes for the future are as unrealistic as any fan and have a flavour of disdain for the clubs that Celtic’s success is built on beating. It does him no favours.
Just to add a wee cherry to the top of the cake, he provides a great wee ad for the pro union campaign by suggesting Celtic’s would be best served in a British Premiership.
The man clearly has a lot of opinions that will generate discussion, but that discussion doesn’t belong on a neutral website, unless there is a plan to follow up with 41 similar interviews like it.
This should have either been published with a health warning, disassociating TSFM with the views stated therein, or withdrawn altogether.
This talk of where TRFC might find themselves finishing in the Premiership (still hate using that name); I think a more appropriate question might be where they might finish in the Championship? The point that EKBHOY made regarding them facing full time team that doesn’t run out of wind in the last 15 mins is very telling, I think. I’ve not watched any of their games this, or last, season, only seeing the potted highlights online, but from what I can tell they’ve won a lot of their games during this period when the part-timers are shot. The current squad might very well struggle, regardless of how Hearts, or the team that loses the play-off, perform, and if/after Wallace’s cut-backs happen, then there could be a lot of young laddies having to face the kind of ‘experienced professionals’ many have had to face when playing against TRFC. They might even find a few of their ex team-mates kicking lumps out of them!
I’ve not had the chance to listen to the podcast properly yet, and so won’t comment on what was said, but will support the decision to have David Low on, as it, at least, gives an indication of how the head guys at Celtic view Scottish football and what is important to them. What ever that might be.
https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/alistair-murdoch-mccoist-mbe-resign-as-rangers-manager
Bit of confidence and backing for the manager ahead of their biggest game ever…
Tongue in cheek one for the legals
Dos Mr Regan have a cause of action against Lord Robertson for copyright infringement? #Armageddon
I’ll get me coat
Barcabhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 9:44 am
…”People are being denied the pension benefit they worked for all their lives , whilst Murray lifts £6 million in a loan he isn’t paying back….”
=============================================================================
Barca…this sums up the whole appalling scandal.
My fellow CA Fred Goodwin was pilloried, possibly with some justification, for less, pro-rata, than what Murray has done.
When will the knighthood be stripped from this wretched man?
Bit of irony here but reading a lot of bears’ comments saying ‘Thats not the rangers I knew’..’Thats not the rangers I grew up with’… Really??? 💡
I wonder if my prediction of ranger#2 being only an apprenticeship to the real rangers#3 will come to fruition or will rangers#2 be hidden away like the b’stad child but titles still counting.. 😆
I do predict that Ally and coaching team will be sacked next week if he loses heavily to Utd and Durie asked to take the first team. It will take Ally a while to get his lawyer onto that by which time Wallace may have gotten some cash in. The toss up for Waldo is what is more enticing to the fans swithering about buying SBs, Ally staying or going? Rangers need to make a clear decision as they cannot afford to keep him on in another capacity. Then again this is rangers we are talking about.
If they lose narrowly he may last to the season end. If he wins regardless of the final he could be the manager next season with enough spin. Such is the confusion amongst the bears.
@AllyJambo
I honestly think Waldo will ditch Ally and his expensive coaches and get someone else in before the end of the season and move out the other big earners, it really is the only way ahead for them for ranger#2 to play football next season. The majority of bears will see Ally going as a positive now. Bringing in another old rangers player as manager would also give the SB pot a wee boost, wan o’ their ain..!!
I think trimming that squad down dramatically, much to the disgust of Kingy will see them in the championship a couple of seasons as Waldo looks for financial stability, which is not gonna happen overnight.
That Bocanegra soccer academy in the US will help their scouting network to get the best young talent 😆
ptd1978 says: April 8, 2014 at 12:57 pm
…This should have either been published with a health warning, disassociating TSFM with the views stated therein, or withdrawn altogether.
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I don’t agree.
Mr Low is a Celtic Fan and ex director.
He speaks as that not as anything else.
His thoughts and opinions are enlightening and we can each agree or disagree with them all or some of them.
Fair play to him rising above the parapet and risking flak from the hordes.
I’d say he was incisive about sugar daddies and hangers on.
He sees the need to be a business.
He knew the only real competition in a football sense while he was a director came from Rangers and without competition knows Celtic’s aspirations will be eternally stymied.
And also as a Celtic fan he realises that the only way his ex football business can win the Champions League in the future is to be richer and one of the TV or Arab Elite playing in a top league.
So if that is where Celtic want to be then the fact of life they face is they have to change where they ply their trade.
I think that Mr Low holding that opinion is ok because he is a Celtic fan who remembers when they were at the top of the top table and wants it again. (I too am old enough to remember the 2 finals in 3 years and some near misses and I too thought it would last for ever)
But Scottish Football as is will never again prepare Celtic to win a future Champions League and he is also right that there will be a continued slide in their season book numbers as boredom sets in in Scotland – coupled with many (especially the kids) adopting a “glamorous” second club.
(My kids now support their glamorous second clubs and haven’t been to Tynie for years.)
I didn’t particularly like the way he referred to all other clubs as Diddy but can understand why he is derisory about them as business competitors.
Every other club is diddy, just some more diddy than others and he would never want to share gates with them.
He knows Celtic are so much bigger than the rest and that Rangers were too and can/will be again – eventually.
In fact the two of them are bigger than the rest put together – and that is why the 5 way agreement was finagled by our establishment clique running the game – a clique that is mostly blue but with some green shoots too)
I’m a diddy club fan but I’m not stupid.
I can see Celtic need better competition if they want to move to the next level i Europe and it almost certainly won’t come from within Scotland.
I can see an unstable formula right through our game that isn’t working and can’t work for our biggest club.
And Scotland is not unique – TV in particular has changed the football world for ever.
If we had had Kenny Cameron from ICT on the podcast he would not be saying that their plan is to be in the Champions League each season – his club are already punching near or even above their weight and he’d be happy with constant top 6s and maybe getting the stonewall penalty awarded next time they make a cup final.
If we had someone from Brechin or Montrose they might say they don’t need promotion – or relegation because of the sheer stress both cause and that they aspire to mid table comfort.
So for me a good pod cast from a guy who wants to see his club at the very top where they once were.
Insightful into how our biggest sees the game in this country.
Insightful into the difficulties Aulheid’s motion faced at the Celtic AGM.
More please.
scapaflow says:
April 8, 2014 at 1:29 pm
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Tongue in cheek one for the legals
Dos Mr Regan have a cause of action against Lord Robertson for copyright infringement? #Armageddon
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Applying modern UK law and historical guesswork, copyright expired on “Armageddon” in approx AD160.
ptd1978 at 12:57
Hear hear.
Thanks for the reply Barcabhoy. I must admit i have no faith in those you mention. l wouldn’t have them monitor an egg and spoon race. Whilst the jury is still out on whether senior MSP’s and MP’s were allegedly complicit in attempting to put the brakes on HMRC when investigating non-payment of tax, l have reservations that our elected rep’s are representing us appropriately. If they require proding in the first place to do their job, l would suggest they/we have the wrong person in post. You are right, the only thing to do is make sure they are not allowed to sit on their hands and do nothing. I am just flabbergasted that noone spontaneously or intuitively, in a position of power or governance would say “hold on a minute, what was that……”.
I don’t think Waldo mentioned the start date for the 120 day review, could have been the standard 3 weeks on Wednesday.. 😀 Was he including weekends? Public holidays, vacation days, the days he was posted missing? Who knows.. 😉
Just a quick couple of comments on the MIH pension scheme. I can’t find anything in the public domain after a quick search, so my comments must be fairly general.
Yes, stock markets have had a good couple of years (although 2011 wasn’t too hot), but that only impacts one side of the balance sheet. Bond yields have got lower, which, when couple with improving mortality, means the value of the liabilities has also increased. Pension Schemes are valued triennially, and it is likely that recent valuations are showing a deterioration in the funding position. If that coincides with poor trading conditions for the sponsoring employer, then there could be problems.
There are limits on self-investment (5% of the value of the assets comes to mind).
Pensions are reserved to Westminster, so any MSP is likely to punt queries down the road to London. Thence any MP is likely to point out that matters will be overseen by the appropriate regulator, which, in the case of the pension scheme, is the Pensions Regulator. tPR can play hard-ball if it so inclined, and is likely to be monitoring any proposal to reduce member benefits.
Similarly LBG will be regulated by the Prudential Regulatory Authority. There will be parliamentary supervision, but I think it’s a bit far-fetched at this stage to suggest that any undue interest will be shown in LBG dealing with one loan to one particular company, even if the MD is a knight of the realm.
@PTD1978
I agree with what you say in the middle of your post, but don’t agree that the podcast should not have been aired. Low has valid, credible opinions which we know are shared by many Celtic fans. They can’t be suppressed or confined to Celtic-only sites just because they seem to offer little that is constructive for the rest of Scottish football.
It’s also good to hear such views so firmly addressed by a well connected insider. If any of us Diddies needed confirmation of how those in charge at Celtic view Scottish football and their own interests, there it is. Now we know what we are up against.
I wonder how many people of similar standing could be interviewed by TSFM in order to provide a Diddy Club perspective? Derek Robertson for his various roles at Dundee United springs to mind.
The accounts from Murray International Holdings Limited for 2013 is an interesting read. This statement in particular caught my eye.
“The Group then received an unsolicited approach from the Murray family in Spring 2013 to acquire the majority of assets in the portfolio of Murray Estates”
I have this vision of David Murray sitting in his wood panelled room reading his daily correspondence: Dear Dave, Will you sell us the land, the houses and stuff? We’ll give you a good price. Yours Dave.
David, his eyebrows raising, says ‘That’s unexpected’.
Torquemada says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:04 pm
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Apologies, CM, my post was sent before I finished it. I was going to say that ALL teams get soft decisions for, and bad decision against them. But no team, certainly in Scotland, gets so many for them and against their opponents so regularly and so relentlessly as our friends from Glasgow’s southside.
That they continually go on about a throw-in wrongly awarded to Celtic in the 1989 cup final tells a story, wouldn’t you think? lol!
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I don’t know. As far as I can recall I have never heard anyone go on about such a throw-in (I still want to call them a “shy”). In fact I couldn’t say that I hear fans of one team bang on about duff decisions more than any other. Nor could I (as a supporter of neither Rangers nor Celtic) say that I have ever noticed one of them getting more dodgy decisions than the other (but then I don’t care enough about the relative numbers of dodgy decisions that the one gets compared to the other to think about it). I “know” (in the same way as some on here seem to “know” that refs are loaded in favour of Rangers) that Rangers get more decisions than my team and so do Celtic. But I am not going to come on here and shout about it when a ref gives a shocker (like McManus’s ball to head penalty on Saturday) and scream conspiracy.
Nothing bores me quite as much as a debate about how one duff refereeing decision (added to the apparently endless historical litany of similar decisions) proves that there is a conspiracy out there and that no matter how many other crap decisions occur that don’t fit the conspiracy profile, the fact that some do, somehow proves that the conspiracy is real. The fact is that duff decisions are the norm – there does not have to be another reason for them.
Partly it bores me because it is not capable of proof (in the absence of an admission). Things that are not capable of being proved or disproved are manna to conspiracy theorists and no matter how much there is to suggest the conspiracy does not exist (here that would be that shocking decisions happen that don’t involve a Rangers and that sometimes bad decisions go against a Rangers) that is not enough to prove that the conspiracy does not exist.
Its like arguing with a creationist. No I can’t explain easily how the eye evolved. Yes it seems very clever and complex. But – no that does not mean creationism is valid in the slightest.
Douglas Fraser on the strange Death of MIH
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-26927245
Imagine the top league being completely composed of provincial teams!
scottc says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:42 pm
_________________________________________________
you think Celtic are goners? 🙂
scapaflow says:
April 8, 2014 at 1:29 pm
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Tongue in cheek one for the legals
Dos Mr Regan have a cause of action against Lord Robertson for copyright infringement? #Armageddon
I’ll get me coat
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Don’t you mean – Armageddon me coat ? 😆
MoreCelticParanoia says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:57 pm
Given I’m still waiting for the Armageddon they promised us when rangers died, I think we are quite safe to sleep soundly in our beds whatever happens on September 18th
ALLYJAMBO says:
April 8, 2014 at 10:41 am
“The courts do, however, recognise a difference between trust law as it applies to private trusts and wills and how it applies to pension schemes. There have been many court decisions confirming that the members of pension schemes are not voluntary beneficiaries. They are not having a gift bestowed upon them. The member of occupational pension schemes are entitled to benefits under the scheme because of the work they have carried out for their employer. The pension they will receive when they retire is in the nature of deferred pay. They have worked in return for pay that they receive immediately and pay that they will receive, under the terms of the pension scheme, when they retire.”
There was a lot of angst about pensions after Mr Maxwell “the bouncing Czech” died.
European Court of Justice 17th May 1990
Barber V (The Company I used to work for)
If I remember right this defined Pension as” Deferred Pay” amongst other things like Normal Retirement Dates between males and their “better halves”? 65/60 😀
Cannot be sure, have to go to work, will check when I get back.
ptd1978 says:
April 8, 2014 at 12:57 pm
Well I’ll say it if nobody else will. This podcast doesn’t belong on a neutral site.
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Maybe the reason that nobody else will say it is that the notion is preposterous. The fact that you were moved to write extensively in disagreement proves the case for the inclusion of the interview.
Perhaps we thought it important to demonstrate that the views of our clubs are not in accordance with our own. It is important that we understand that.
David Low expressed a point of view (with respect to Rangers) that he says is shared by the Celtic board and by most of the other top flight clubs in the country. I don’t think there are many on this site who agree with that view, so it is useful that they are aware of the situation when they make their choices come ST renewal.
He also expressed a view that Celtic’s future is outside of Scotland. I think that ties n rather well with Stuart Cosgrove’s theory of a Celtic “schizophrenia”.
So we should refuse to hear those views? And should we raise a hand to our eyes and mouths as well?
Campbellsmoney says:
April 8, 2014 at 12:45 pm
EKBhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 12:37 pm
…….
I believe that they will be in the bottom 6 at a Ross County , Killie level.
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you think Hibs are goners then?
******
I was just using Ross County and Killie as an example.
On reflection , Killie are the poorest team I have seen at Parkhead this season , although they have Boyd who can score at the bottom end of the league. Ross County are not pretty on the eye but have at least put up a fight when they have played in Glasgow , so if pushed it is between Killie and Hibs in my book, toss of a coin really.
TSFM says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:53 pm
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scottc says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:42 pm
_________________________________________________
you think Celtic are goners? 🙂
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Do you think Glasgow is the capital? 😉
scottc says:
April 8, 2014 at 3:06 pm
TSFM says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:53 pm
1 0 Rate This
scottc says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:42 pm
_________________________________________________
you think Celtic are goners? 🙂
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you think Glasgow is the capital? 😉
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Ouch!
.. and touché 🙂
Whilst I disagree with the sentiment behind some of Mr Low’s views, his is nonetheless a valid viewpoint. I Iwould welcome a similar thoughtful view from someone connected to Rangers. Refusing to allow views to be expressed simply because the “other” side refuse or are unable to take part would not help anyone.
McCaigs Tower
I have an investment portfolio managed by one of the Wall St Banks everyone loves to hate. Their instruction from me is preservation of capital and low risk. That results in them buying a mix of equities, bonds, fixed income and gilts. The average return in the last 2 years has been +14% per annum. Outside of that i have a managed equity only portfolio which is higher risk and that has returned in excess of 75% over a 2 year period.
How a pension portfolio which should be managed on a low risk preservation of capital basis, has managed to go from a position of not issuing any warnings over risk to admitting it cannot fulfil its obligations in the space of 12 months , is cause for an enquiry in my view. The mortality rate hasn’t significantly changed in the last 10 years , never mind in the last 12 months.
Barcabhoy says:
April 8, 2014 at 4:14 pm
there is a very bad smell emanating from MIH
Scapaflow – I’m not sure the counterpoint of a “Rangers” viewpoint is particularly relevant to the Low interview. Any discussion of how The Ibrox Club should run themselves seems to be pretty well discussed in public right now. They are focused, understandably, entirely on themselves.
What I, and it seems a few others, would like to see is a counter to the idea that the best interests of Scottish football is all about a strong Old Firm (at least to OF supporters & officials), yet simultaneously the best interests of the OF is in leaving Scotland.
It doesn’t take a huge leap to surmise that Celtic, and Rangers previously, viewed Scottish Football as only of use to them for the access it gives them to European football and the opportunity to dominate it to such a degree that somehow an invite from England would be forthcoming or a European league would come into existence.
The mechanics and likelihood of either of these eventualities has never been clear to me in any way.
With the arguments put forward by Low, if one accepts them as an accurate statement of the views of those in charge at Celtic, it seems clear there is no prospect of Celtic providing leadership to improve Scottish football.
Anyone searching for leadership in improving Scottish football and making significant change should look elsewhere. I hope TSFM, or indeed anyone, can bring such views to the fore.
Night Terror says:
April 8, 2014 at 4:23 pm
NT agree with what you say, hence my disagreement with Mr Low’s sentiments. My point was aimed at those who were arguing that as a “Celtic” man, there was no place for him in a “neutral” blog. This blog is neutral in the sense that supporters of all teams, and none, come on and make their points. Neutral doesn’t mean no “Celtic” view unless followed by a “Rangers” view, any more than it means no “Hearts” view unless followed by a “Hibs” view.
Don’t always agree with the Mods, but in this case they are right, Mr Low’s views are uncomfortable, but they need to be heard,.
Campbellsmoney says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:35 pm
Its like arguing with a creationist. No I can’t explain easily how the eye evolved. Yes it seems very clever and complex. But – no that does not mean creationism is valid in the slightest.
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Well, I can – and have done – to the great consternation of persons with bibles approaching me on a summer Saturday morning when I’m under the car covered in grease and oil. I pray 😉 that they’ll ask me about the eye with regard to evolution, or any other biological sort of nonsense for that matter. In short, an evolutionary path for the eye does exist and can be easily mapped out. One may also ask these fellows why the squidgy octopus has better eyes than us, “design”-wise (nerve fibres behind the retina instead of in front like ours, so more light and no blind spot). Whichever wise-guy came up with the “evolution of the eye” bible-thump was simply playing on the ignorance of the potential audience.
—
MoreCelticParanoia says:
April 8, 2014 at 2:57 pm
Don’t you mean – Armageddon me coat ?
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… and that there pun was copyrighted by Messrs Def Leppard in 1987 or so with their hilariously-titled tune “Armageddon It”. 🙂
Night Terror says:
April 8, 2014 at 4:23 pm
With the arguments put forward by Low, if one accepts them as an accurate statement of the views of those in charge at Celtic, it seems clear there is no prospect of Celtic providing leadership to improve Scottish football.
Anyone searching for leadership in improving Scottish football and making significant change should look elsewhere. I hope TSFM, or indeed anyone, can bring such views to the fore.
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NT
I think views such as those you describe are aired daily on TSFM by various contributors, but there are those in positions of influence in the Scottish game who hold them too. We will definitely be bringing those different perspectives into near future podcasts – watch this space!
Allyjambo – statistically it’s not clearcut that the amateurs legs have gone. In the league NewGers scored 15 goals in the last 15 minutes of games to date. The last 15 minutes is 16.7% of the game; 15 goals/93 league goals is 16.1%.
What is surprising to me is that The Pars have scored 13 out of 64 goals in the last 5 minutes of games – that’s 20% of goals in the last 5.6% of games! Any thoughts Pars’ fans?
http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/teams/Rangers.html
http://stats.football365.com/dom/SCO/teams/Dunfermline.html
NB to pre-empt the statistical pedants, I appreciate that goals in added time go down as 90 minutes so 85+mins is not necessarily exactly 5.6% of a match…
Finloch said at 1.44pm today that David Low is an ex director of Celtic and was speaking as that, as well as a fan. He’s certainly a fan but to the best of my recollection he has never been a director of the club so he’s not speaking with any such implied or informal authority. No doubt he still has some point of contact with someone on the board and I don’t necessarily think he has given an inaccurate view of the board’s approach.
Seemed to me he was giving a personal view of how he would like to see his team go ahead. I do not know him but was taken aback at the suggestion by one or two people here that the podcast should be withdrawn. Freedom of speech ? Thankfully saner, voices appear to be in the majority on the blog.
Angus1983 says:
April 8, 2014 at 4:34 pm
Well, I can – and have done
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and quite right too. These people need opposed at every turn.
I didn’t say I couldn’t explain it, I said I couldn’t explain it easily. 🙁
I have read Richard Dawkins on the subject and understood it perfectly when he explained it. But try as I might, when I explain it in the pub it always seems much less straightforward. As soon as I read Brief History of Time I understood it perfectly but it all seems like a very distant dim memory now. Something about gas and motion and very fast stuff and very small dense stuff.
Anyway on the subject of beliefs. I have not yet had the opportunity to listen to the podcast. Having seen so many comments about it, it will be interesting to listen and to make up my own mind.
And remember I have not heard the podcast:-
The fact that David Low has had an involvement with Celtic and may be Celtic-minded is neither here nor there as to whether he is a suitable podcaster for this site. He is entitled to his views.
The fact that David Low has had an involvement with Celtic and may be Celtic-minded is relevant to what he says and may well inform why he holds any views that he holds.
The fact that he holds views that others find unpalatable should be a cause for discussion – not a cause for censorship. If we don’t agree with his views – contest them – don’t argue that he shouldn’t express them .
Oh – and any idea that the counterpoint to the views of David Low should be a “Rangers” one seems to me to be dangerously close to espousing the idea that Scottish football is a two team thing.
the continued demise of MIH is unsurprising. i think the part in the article about the pension scheme is poorly worded. i read it as that without the income from the shopping centres, the sponsoring employer (MIH) will be unable to make extra contributions to the scheme to make up for the deficit.
i would imagine that the scheme has been in deficit for some time and that it is the ability of the sponsoring employer to meet the liabilities of the scheme that has changed.
Campbellsmoney says:
April 8, 2014 at 5:12 pm
my initial reply could have been better worded hey ho
Jockybhoy.
Yes – the Pars have scored loads of late goals this season, most of them against Stenhousemuir. I put it down to three things – superior fitness, a growing self-belief in the likelihood of getting that late goal (and hence it being a self-fulfilling prophecy to a certain extent), and Jim Jefferies’ masterly substitutions. (Time to experiment with one of those smiley things.) 😈
(I’ve to dash, but I’ll address pension matters later – just to say, Beanos is probably on the money)